Immune to Stun Only

[Tech]

As some villains (and quite a few heroes in my campaign) have Stun Only attacks, I have a robot character that I want to be 100% immune/invulnerable to any type of 'Stun Only' attacks. FYI, yes, the character has Stun. I haven't given NND or AVLD any thoughts so ignore that. How would you build someone who is Immune to any 'Stun Only' attacks so it can never affect them.

So, I'm curious to see how you would build it.

[Hugh Neilson]

So he's immune only if the attack is STUN only, and would take STUN from any attack capable of doing BOD, if I'm reading this right.

Well, the classic approach would be large defenses and likely damage reduction only vs attacks which only do STUN, but at some level, some damage will stilll trickle through, and those NND's (and AVLD's unless you buy the defense) still work.

What about the automaton Takes no Stun power, limited to only affect attacks which only do Stun? That gets rid of his NND issue as well, but creates an issue on his defenses costing triple. I'd probably handwave that if I'm OK with taking no Stun from Stun only attacks to begin with.

I'm having trouble picturing the SFX that a power that only does STUN has no effect whatsoever but one which can do BOD, even if it's far below his defenses, can inflict STUN. Either you can take stun or you can't, IMO.

[Rapier]

I believe I understand where you are coming from. The character is a robot so shouldn't take any damage from gas attacks and other odd attacks that are not necessarily "contact damage", yet he can take STUN that represents his components being jostled around and thrown out of whack.

I'm not sure that you are going about this in the right way.

You say that a lot of characters have some kind of STUN Only attack. How are they defined? Is it electricity? Gas? Time particles? Those are what you should be trying to defend against. Most attacks that are STUN Only are, IME, limited by SFX (Not vs FF, Self Contained Breathing, etc). Simply give the character whatever SFX Defense is required to defeat those attacks.

In some cases, depending on the build, the character might warrant a large amount of Defenses or even Desol against that specific SFX (eg Desol, Only vs Gas Attacks). As a GM I would not allow a power defined as "Only to Defend Against STUN Only Attacks." It is too openly defined and doesn't make sense that you can get this defense against gas and taser attacks.

It is also a good idea to take a look at the builds for these STUN Only attacks. Do the powers have appropriate limitations to reflect the SFX (eg Not vs Self Contained Breathing for gas attacks)?

[Vondy]

This is a Meta FX definition rather than an FX definition. I don't allow players to define powers as functioning against a Meta FX. I consider it inherently abusive, cheesy, and munchkiny. Powers need to be defined as functioning within the context of the game world, not the underlying mechanical principles that make the simulation of the world go. As such, I consider such constructs non-starters. Do not pass go, do not collect your $200 (in my game, at least).

[Tech]

This is a Meta FX definition rather than an FX definition. I don't allow players to define powers as functioning against a Meta FX. I consider it inherently abusive, cheesy, and munchkiny. Powers need to be defined as functioning within the context of the game world, not the underlying mechanical principles that make the simulation of the world go. As such, I consider such constructs non-starters. Do not pass go, do not collect your $200 (in my game, at least).

Hugh's & Rapier's advice is thought provoking so I will think about that. Von, I disagree and agree with you. FYI, I've played for over 20 years so I'm not looking at this in a cheesy or munchkiny way. Whether my idea is a legit build as previously phrased is one thing. However, my basic concept of the immunity is still valid, regardless of how I may have phrased it. With GM permission, I could easily take the Automaton power 'Takes No Stun' and be done with this but it's not what I want.

I agree with you in this same vein that 'Being immune to Energy Blast' just isn't a legit build. However, no amount of gas will ever stun a robot (I bought Life Supp), which could be built most commonly as a NND/AVLD, but it could also be bought as an Energy Blast-Stun Only, which LS would not help against. An attack built to attack the nervous system will not ever work, which is what I read most Stun Only attacks as being but not necessarily all, i.e. the taser example.

So, if I need to rephrase it, being immune to attacks that attack the nervous system will work, whether a combo of LS and others or whatnot. So again, I ask the noble hero gamers so help me refine this power and finally put it into a way that does work. :)

[Rapier]

I agree with you in this same vein that 'Being immune to Energy Blast' just isn't a legit build. However, no amount of gas will ever stun a robot (I bought Life Supp), which could be built most commonly as a NND/AVLD, but it could also be bought as an Energy Blast-Stun Only, which LS would not help against. An attack built to attack the nervous system will not ever work, which is what I read most Stun Only attacks as being but not necessarily all, i.e. the taser example.

So, if I need to rephrase it, being immune to attacks that attack the nervous system will work, whether a combo of LS and others or whatnot. So again, I ask the noble hero gamers so help me refine this power and finally put it into a way that does work. :)

It sounds like most of your problem is incorrect builds on the attack powers. If it's a gas attack, it should have a limitation that is Does Not Work Against Self Contained Breathing. Without a limitation, if a character with Self Contained Breathing gets hit with an attack that is 12d6 EB Stun Only defined as a Gas attack, he would not take damage...regardless of how the power is built.

[Arkham]

If your GM requires that all attack powers are built according to SFX, then the problem goes away. Just by the appropriate immunities by SFX.

The SFX you have shouldn't prevent damage from a very self-controlled brick who has a Stun-only punch.

[Vondy]

Hugh's & Rapier's advice is thought provoking so I will think about that. Von, I disagree and agree with you. FYI, I've played for over 20 years so I'm not looking at this in a cheesy or munchkiny way. Whether my idea is a legit build as previously phrased is one thing. However, my basic concept of the immunity is still valid, regardless of how I may have phrased it. With GM permission, I could easily take the Automaton power 'Takes No Stun' and be done with this but it's not what I want.

Fair enough. I still consider the approach philosophically invalid. FX are are an integral part of the system and need to be used when designing an effect, or adjudicating its results. Takes No Stun is a mechanic intended to model an effect within the game world. Meta-FX definitions are simply bad design, and almost invariably effect far more than the design warrants (as you yourself admit below).

For instance (just an example), you don't want the character to be affected by gas attacks, but take "vs. stun only attacks." Not all stun only attacks are Gas Based - they could represent anything from a gas attack to a stun only punch to a warp pulse. You have the same problem with Takes No Stun, incidentally. Its a Meta-FX definition as opposed to a normative FX definition. I know the distinction is a fine one, and that mechanics are Meta-FX in of themselves, but it really does matter.

Arguably we could define it this way: concepts should use mechanics to model FX, not mechanics to model mechanics.


I agree with you in this same vein that 'Being immune to Energy Blast' just isn't a legit build. However, no amount of gas will ever stun a robot (I bought Life Supp), which could be built most commonly as a NND/AVLD, but it could also be bought as an Energy Blast-Stun Only, which LS would not help against. An attack built to attack the nervous system will not ever work, which is what I read most Stun Only attacks as being but not necessarily all, i.e. the taser example.

Versus Energy Blast and Versus Stun Only Attacks are conceptually the same from whereI sit. The only difference is scope. Both focus on the underlying principles that run the game (read: mechanics) and not the actual game world effect (read: FX). I don't believe its an appropriate build. And, as for life support not neutralizing attacks that should logically be neutralized by them, I agree with Rapier.

The problem lies in one of two places:

1) The design of the attack power: NND and AVLD must have logical FX defined that neutralize them based on their own FX, and it follows that should include logical situations or abilities, like LS. In fact, LS is the most commonly defined "does not work against" I have seen.

or

2) The adjudication of such effects is being done in an abstract rather than meaningful fashion - read: uses mechanics divorced from their logical, FX based impact on the game world. Even if a particuliar FX was not defined for a power not to work against (i.e., "knock out gas" and "does not breathe.") it should, nonethless, not work if the character has paid points for an ability, like Life Support, that should logically neutralize it.


So, if I need to rephrase it, being immune to attacks that attack the nervous system will work, whether a combo of LS and others or whatnot. So again, I ask the noble hero gamers so help me refine this power and finally put it into a way that does work. :)

Based on my previous comments in this post, and based on Rapier's concurrent opinion, buy the relevant Life Support abilities. Does Not Breathe; Immune to Disease/Bioweapons; and Immune to Toxins/Chemical Weapons with neutralize most of the attacks I think you have in mind. Go whole hog and buy Full Life Support if you want to be thourough. The only gap that leaves is something like the taser you mentioned, which isn't really covered by life support (though it should be assumed that it won't affect someone who doesn't have a central nervous system, and as an NND, that should fall under the things it doesn't affect).

[Lord Liaden]

I agree with those who say that the SFX of this ability is questionable. However, if you're going to go ahead with this anyway ;) , I would say that Limited Desolidification is the simplest and most efficient build. Note that according to the rulebook description of Desolidification, it's well within the GM's purview to waive the requirement for "Affects Solid World" on STR and Powers if the Desolid is sufficiently Limited.

[David Johnston]

As some villains (and quite a few heroes in my campaign) have Stun Only attacks, I have a robot character that I want to be 100% immune/invulnerable to any type of 'Stun Only' attacks. FYI, yes, the character has Stun. I haven't given NND or AVLD any thoughts so ignore that. How would you build someone who is Immune to any 'Stun Only' attacks so it can never affect them.

So, I'm curious to see how you would build it.

I would not. Invulnerability takes an infinite number of points when built as a defense. You can be invulnerable to attacks that are designed to not work against certain properties, such as all NND attacks, but you can't be invulnerable to an attack just because it is never going to kill someone.

[Tech]

(chuckle) I'm simply going to go with LS and a few other defenses. The concensus incorrectly assumes I'm trying to do something illegally simply because 'I don't want to be affected by a certain game mechanic'. I guess it's one of those days where I can't correctly put to words the power. Simply trying to negate the effect of taking Stun damage or not being Stunned' (more damage than Con) is not what I'm achieving for.

I'm going to shelve this until such a time I can nail this down better. Thanks to all your thoughts.

[ghost-angel]

(chuckle) I'm simply going to go with LS and a few other defenses. The concensus incorrectly assumes I'm trying to do something illegally simply because 'I don't want to be affected by a certain game mechanic'. I guess it's one of those days where I can't correctly put to words the power. Simply trying to negate the effect of taking Stun damage or not being Stunned' (more damage than Con) is not what I'm achieving for.

I'm going to shelve this until such a time I can nail this down better. Thanks to all your thoughts.

IF you're just trying not to get Stunned - buy a lot of CON. If you're trying to avoid taking Stun Damage buy a lot of Defense.

We're not saying your build is illegal - we are saying the way you phrased it is suspect because you phrased the query without SFX. You phrased it completely in the context of Mechanics: "How do I not take Stun fron Stun Only Attacks." ... which tells many of us that you are trying to dodge a mechanic, not come up with SFX for being a robot.

To that I add:
To simulate a robot buy:
Full LS: (with or without Immortality, either way).
A large amount of PD/ED that is vs Stun Only (-1/2 to -1 depending on how the GM feels)
A high CON


You also want to make sure the GM and the Players are building powers to interact with the world both Mechnically and SFX wise in an intelligent manner. That means things like Gas Attacks are either NND (Def: LS:SCB) or have the Limitation: Not Vs LS:SCB if not bought as NND.

[Rapier]

The only gap that leaves is something like the taser you mentioned, which isn't really covered by life support (though it should be assumed that it won't affect someone who doesn't have a central nervous system, and as an NND, that should fall under the things it doesn't affect).

Even then, I could see a taser effecting a robot as his systems get overloaded with power.

I think some of the disconnect is how these attack powers are built. Post some of them. That will clear things up rather quickly.

[zornwil]

I think LSes and appropriate SFX adjudication by the GM should be sufficient, however, if you do want to cover all bases, so to speak, I'd vote more for Hugh's approach of Takes No Stun with a Limitation of "Only for Attacks Which Cannot Inflict BOD Damage," and handwave the tripling, possibly (this assumes a fairly strict definition of "cannot inflict BOD damage" - if this is more liberal, I'd go with 1.5x or 2x defenses or such).

But I think as VDM alludes to that LSes and appropriate SFX management should really catch this.

[secretID]

There have been a couple of threads fairly recently in the Hero System Discussion forum about the validity of the automaton powers for a PC. The prevalent opinion was that it's not valid, though I can't remember why. You might want to find them and check them out. I know I started one of them - that can help you search.

[zornwil]

Not to nit-pick, I think it's worth pointing out I don't see it as being the "prevalent" opinion (unless simply by which simply "common" is meant).

[Rapier]

Not to nit-pick, I think it's worth pointing out I don't see it as being the "prevalent" opinion (unless simply by which simply "common" is meant).

And the major stumbling block was the reliance on the word Automoton, which implies that the character has no will of its own...

Oh wait. Bad, Rapier! Don't start that one again!

Just ignore the comment behind the curtain!

[Vondy]

(chuckle) I'm simply going to go with LS and a few other defenses. The concensus incorrectly assumes I'm trying to do something illegally simply because 'I don't want to be affected by a certain game mechanic'. I guess it's one of those days where I can't correctly put to words the power. Simply trying to negate the effect of taking Stun damage or not being Stunned' (more damage than Con) is not what I'm achieving for.

I'm going to shelve this until such a time I can nail this down better. Thanks to all your thoughts.

Actually - I took you for your word when you said you weren't being munchkiny or cheesy; and I don't think you are trying to do something illegal. At the same time (based on your words, which might not completely convey your thoughts, or may simply be misunderstood on my part), I think you need to step back and consider the relationship of Mechanics and FX, and what they mean in practical terms when designing a game effect. The mechanics/FX divide has always been implicit in Hero, but its become explicit in 5th Edition. There's a different way to approach the matter. That's all I'm saying - no more, no less.

[Vondy]

Even then, I could see a taser effecting a robot as his systems get overloaded with power.

I think some of the disconnect is how these attack powers are built. Post some of them. That will clear things up rather quickly.

I can see that. Its one of those issues the player has to work out with the GM. I would tell the player they would be affected unless they bought a custom talent: "electically grounded." I wouldn't charge much. A few points would be sufficient.

[Rapier]

I can see that. Its one of those issues the player has to work out with the GM. I would tell the player they would be affected unless they bought a custom talent: "electically grounded." I wouldn't charge much. A few points would be sufficient.

Hmmm. I can see that! :)

Maybe a 3 pter...maybe 5. Definately a heck of a lot cheaper than DEF!

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I'd use Damage Reduction 100% from a DigiHero ish and limit it to Stun only. But then, I also allow Invulnerability ECs that include varying degrees of Damage Reduction :D

[Klytus]

Buy Desolidification "Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Attack", and define the attack as "STUN Only Attacks that would not reasonably affect a robot".

[zornwil]

Personally, I'd use Damage Reduction 100% from a DigiHero ish and limit it to Stun only. But then, I also allow Invulnerability ECs that include varying degrees of Damage Reduction :D
I have Invulnerability as a power, SFX-based, and have even allowed it in ECs (gasp, my games must be crap!).

[Rapier]

Buy Desolidification "Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Attack", and define the attack as "STUN Only Attacks that would not reasonably affect a robot".

That seems quite expensive, especially considering that as a robot the character most likely has already paid points for all the normal defenses he should need to avoid 'attacks that would not reasonably affect a robot.'

[Klytus]

That seems quite expensive, especially considering that as a robot the character most likely has already paid points for all the normal defenses he should need to avoid 'attacks that would not reasonably affect a robot.'

Well, while the concept is sound, it is a strong effect he's going after, so it should cost some points. But let's do the math. By the Book, it looks like this: Desolidification: 40 Points; 0 END +½, Persistent +½ = 80 Active Points; Limitation: Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1) = 40 Real Points. Personally, in my games, I'd call this a -2 Limitation, because the LImitation applies ONLY to STUN Only attacks, but not against those which could affect a robot. This brings us down to 27 Real Points. Immunities should be expensive, but to my mind, this cost is very reasonable for the effect.

YMMV.

[Rapier]

Well, while the concept is sound, it is a strong effect he's going after, so it should cost some points. But let's do the math. By the Book, it looks like this: Desolidification: 40 Points; 0 END +½, Persistent +½ = 80 Active Points; Limitation: Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1) = 40 Real Points. Personally, in my games, I'd call this a -2 Limitation, because the LImitation applies ONLY to STUN Only attacks, but not against those which could affect a robot. This brings us down to 27 Real Points. Immunities should be expensive, but to my mind, this cost is very reasonable for the effect.

It all goes back to the fact that it sounds like the attacks are not built within the SFX confines as they are defined.

Gas Bomb - 8d6 EB; Explosive, (-1) STUN Only

If someone brought that into your game, what would your response be? I know what mine would be. Take it NND, Not vs SCB because it's a gas attack and gas attacks should not effect people that don't breath the air.

The character should not be shelling out 10 pts, let alone 27 to compensate his defense for a poorly built attack. The character already has the appropriate defenses for the above attack, he has SCB. Why make him dish out all those points to duplicate what he's already got?

In the best case, the attacks are better built so that they are appropriate to SFX. Worst case, the attacks are assumed to have the appropriate SFX limitations, and the character with the attack doesn't get back the points to which he is being limited by SFX.

[Sketchpad]

LOL ... you and me both Zorn ;) Why Hero doesn't have an Invulnerability power, I have no idea ...

[Klytus]

LOL ... you and me both Zorn ;) Why Hero doesn't have an Invulnerability power, I have no idea ...

I house-ruled my own verison of it.

[Klytus]

Gas Bomb - 8d6 EB; Explosive, (-1) STUN Only

If someone brought that into your game, what would your response be? I know what mine would be. Take it NND, Not vs SCB because it's a gas attack and gas attacks should not effect people that don't breath the air.


What if that same attack were defined as a Psionic Shock Wave? Not an ego attack but wave of mental energy that cause all the synapses in the brain to fire randomly - thus doing STUN to the target, but no real damage? I would consider that to be a perfectly reasonable way to build and define the SFX of a Stun Only attack. Now, because this attack works against an organic mind, it would, logicaly, NOT work against a robot. Is it the onus of the player with this power, or the DM making the NPCs, to pencil in Limitations for every possible contingency? Maybe this attack *would* work on some robots, like Mr. Data with his positronic brain. Some attacks are built a certain way to fit an effect, and sometimes, situations like this occur. But, if the robot in question has this special defense, it gets rid of all the guesswork and clearly defines the mechanic.

[Sketchpad]

I house-ruled my own verison of it.
I'd be interested in seeing it if you're interested in sharing :)

[zornwil]

LOL ... you and me both Zorn ;) Why Hero doesn't have an Invulnerability power, I have no idea ...
I've come to think that it really doesn't make sense except to reference in genre books and give guidelines on house rules as the different visions of invulnerability vary widely and probably deserve more attention at a specific game level than the core book.

[secretID]

Not to nit-pick, I think it's worth pointing out I don't see it as being the "prevalent" opinion (unless simply by which simply "common" is meant).
I have no idea whether that position is prevalent in the community. My memory is that it was in those threads, but I may be misremembering.

[Rapier]

What if that same attack were defined as a Psionic Shock Wave? Not an ego attack but wave of mental energy that cause all the synapses in the brain to fire randomly - thus doing STUN to the target, but no real damage? I would consider that to be a perfectly reasonable way to build and define the SFX of a Stun Only attack. Now, because this attack works against an organic mind, it would, logicaly, NOT work against a robot. Is it the onus of the player with this power, or the DM making the NPCs, to pencil in Limitations for every possible contingency? Maybe this attack *would* work on some robots, like Mr. Data with his positronic brain. Some attacks are built a certain way to fit an effect, and sometimes, situations like this occur. But, if the robot in question has this special defense, it gets rid of all the guesswork and clearly defines the mechanic.

Machine Class of Minds.

Mental powers need to be defined to effect a type of mind. A robot that has a positronic brain should take a Disad that they are affected by Mental Powers.

Again, the robot is already immune to the attack in question...why make him spend a bunch of points to reinforce his immunity?

If I pay for LS: Immunity to all Terrestrial Chemicals, should I then have to pay for Desol (Only vs Chemicals)?

[Rapier]

I've come to think that it really doesn't make sense except to reference in genre books and give guidelines on house rules as the different visions of invulnerability vary widely and probably deserve more attention at a specific game level than the core book.

Wasn't there a DH article on Invulnerability? I seem to remember one someplace, but can't for the life of me remember in which one.

[zornwil]

Sounds familiar, I believe so, I have a number that I've downloaded and haven't read and a number I still wish to download but I think my subscription expired, still need to renew.

[Rapier]

Sounds familiar, I believe so, I have a number that I've downloaded and haven't read and a number I still wish to download but I think my subscription expired, still need to renew.

Me too. I think I might be down 1 issue.

[David Johnston]

LOL ... you and me both Zorn ;) Why Hero doesn't have an Invulnerability power, I have no idea ...

For the same reason it doesn't have an "Instantly kill someone no matter how high their defenses are" power.

[Klytus]

I'd be interested in seeing it if you're interested in sharing :)

Looking at the projected Active Point Cost of things like 100% Resistant Damage Reduction and Desolidification as a defense, and then factoring in the Limitation "Only Against a Limited Form of Attack", I made a new Power.

It is called, quite simply Invulnerability. It costs 60 Points, and it grants total immunity to a limited class of attacks and/or damage. Things like fire, cold, and electricity are acceptable as-is. If you want to make it even more narrow, add a Limitation. If you want it to be broader, like Invulnerable to Magic, that would be a +1 Advantage. If you wanted to be disgusting, and if the GM will let you get away with it, you could get Invulnerable to all Energy as a +2 Advantage. This, of course, assumes you have 180 points to drop into it.

The main reason I came up with this power was because there is an NPC in my game world known as the Invulnerable Man. Nothing can harm him. Nothing. Yes, I could have just called this GM Fiat, but I wanted an actual mechanic other than something like having his rPD, rED and rMD be 1000 points each with x5 Hardening. Somehow, having a power for Invulnerability seemed "neater" to me.

[zornwil]

Mine's at http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/ch_powers_invulnerability.htm

PS - meant to add, basically it used to be higher in cost but that was too much of a disincentive, wasn't worth it to players, nobody ever used it, then I altered it to be cheaper than it is now, and finally landed on the current values.

But values are game-specific, my values won't work for yours, and vice-versa, I find in these discussions.