Timing is everything

[Sean Waters]

I have been thinking about combat order in Hero. I'm documented as being on record that IMO the speed chart is an absoultely excellent idea and a real central feature to Hero.

Cool.

So, should we change it?

Well, not chage it as such: what I'm thinking of doing is changing what you can do in a phase. You can't take more than one action (except zero phase and free actions) - in effect each phase as is becomes a half phase.

In order to do a full phase move you start on your first phase and finish on your next phase, just like an extra time action.

Now I can see this is going to have a number of effects, and the first to address is book keeping: full phase actions are going to be harder to administer. Well, yes, they are, but here are not that many of them, so it doesn't bother me too much.

Second there would have to be a bit of a change in the 'extra time' and 'gradual' limitations: that's quite straightforward though, and won't make a lot of change in-game (just a bit of mucking about with point totals).

Third it will slow down combat both in terms of 'time taken in the game world' (not a bad thing, perhaps) and in terms of actual play time as you are taking two seperate actions (I run over (phase 1) and I hit him (phase 2)).

Fourthly, I may have to mess with adjustment powers and REC a bit: it may be necessary to halve the recovery rate. Mind you as it is a change that applies to everyone equally I might not bother.

Fifthly it effectively halves movement rates per turn, but again that is a change that applies acros the board.

That seems to be it for the negatives, but if you can think of any others, please let me know.

The main reason I am thinking of this is to avoid the rather odd system at present where The Stuttering Stoat (Dex 24, Spd 5, 10" running) and The Bibilous Blaster (Dex 23, Spd 5) face each other along a street, some 10 metres apart and The Stoat can run over to The Blaster and get him in a head lock before The Blaster can get a shot off. Under the new regime, SS will run over, then BB will get a go before SS can attack (unless SS uses a move through, grab-by or whatever i.e. takes some penalty for moving and attacking).

Also it does away with the logical inconsistency that you can move and attack but not attack and move.

To be honest the 'move and attack' in one action is a bit of a hangover from roleplayings roots in wargaming, and never made much sense to me. I'd rather have a phase as the shortest unit of time you can accomplish something useful in, rathater than the shortest unit of time you can accomplish two useful things in.

Thoughts?

[zornwil]

As to the problem you're addressing, I just rule all actions in a segment are more-or-less imultaneous in effect, with exceptions for defensive actions (which still require a DEX roll usually to execute in time), dramatic actions (ditto to DEX roll or similar challenge, by dramatic actions I mean things like saving a bystanders life or the like (and even then, blowing the DEX roll should just mean the hero gets hit or something)), or as otherwise dictated by common sense (there's those words again).

So in a seg, if Stuttering Stoat is running over and smacking the Bibilous Blaster (these sound like NPCs I'd make, actually), BB will get his shot in on SS no matter what SS' attack result on BB is. It might be that it's BB's last/only shot if SS KOs him, but at least he gets it in.

Not to suggest your idea isn't another valid path. I find my way pretty simple, personally, and is as simple a rule as stated above. As to your proposal, sounds worth trying as you like, would be interested to hear what behavioral changes in combat it creates, I'm not sure. I would add though that others have posted they simply allow attack-and-move without game detriment (though I have not tried it, have been tempted).

[Vondy]

I have traditionally interpreted actions the same way Zorn has: that a character's actions in a phase are simultaneous, and thus somewhat abstracted. If you find this unsatisfying and prefer a strictly linear interpretation, however, the method you propose has merit on a conceptual level, but could be a real pain in terms of practical implementation. As you note, it would take a lot of tweaking in several areas to make it run smoothly.

[Rapier]

How to say this...um...ok...EXAMPLES!!

BlastMan has a 5 SPD, as we all know, he gets actions on 3,5,8,10 and 12.

This doesn't mean that on 1 and 2 he is standing there warming his thumb. He is bopping around, formulating, aiming and all sundry other things. It is only at 3, though, that he can actually act.

Is this a realistic interpretation of time? Nope. Is it any better than a straight DnD turn based where some people get multiple actions and others not? No, probably not.

The SPD Chart is an artificial mechanic to model a real life event. It's not perfect.

If you change phases to 1/2 current models, you have a choice of move or attack.

I would almost say that this might force you into a 24 phase turn. In fact, that might be the simplest solution. You could just take all current active phases and well like this:

SPD 5: 3 5 8 10 12 15 17 20 22 24 (the 15 is 12 + 3, 12 + 5, etc)

All in all, it sounds like a lot of tinkering. Too much for my blood, but I'm curious to see how it turns out.

[Dust Raven]

The really easy answer that requires no tinkering, no rules changes, no house rules and no creative rules interpretations:

Blaster uses the Hurry maneuver and goes first. Done.


The really complicated, not yet playtested but it seems okay for now though it involves a lot of tinkering, rules changes, house rules and creative rules interpretations:

Change the SPD Chart to 24 segments, each representing approx 1/2 second. Halve the cost of SPD and make the default calculation for SPD
2+DEX/5. On each Phase, you may perform anything currently listed as a 1/2 Phase Action (now considered a full phase). Free action and 0 Phase work the same way, and an attack ends your Phase.
Movement: You may move up to half your movement in a Phase while maintaining full CV. You may move at your full movement at half DCV, 0 OCV. You use your full movement to determine added damage from Move Bys and Move Throughs.
Multiple Attacks: If you want to attack two or more Phases in a row, you attack normally on the first Phase, but each addition Phase you continue to attack your DCV drops to 1/2 and you receive a cumulative -2 OCV penalty. Performing any maneuver other than an attack maneuver removes these penalties immediately.
Full Phase Actions: any action listed as a full phase acton (other than Move maneuvers) can be performed in one Phase, but at the sacrifice of the character's next Phase (it takes two Phases to perform what was previously a full phase action). Performing two "double phase" attacks in a row do not incure the multiple attack penalty above.

Well, that's what I got for now... what does everyone think? Shoot some holes in it, plug some holes...something.

[Rapier]

Change the SPD Chart to 24 segments, each representing approx 1/2 second. Halve the cost of SPD and make the default calculation for SPD
2+DEX/5. On each Phase, you may perform anything currently listed as a 1/2 Phase Action (now considered a full phase). Free action and 0 Phase work the same way, and an attack ends your Phase.
Movement: You may move up to half your movement in a Phase while maintaining full CV. You may move at your full movement at half DCV, 0 OCV. You use your full movement to determine added damage from Move Bys and Move Throughs.
Multiple Attacks: If you want to attack two or more Phases in a row, you attack normally on the first Phase, but each addition Phase you continue to attack your DCV drops to 1/2 and you receive a cumulative -2 OCV penalty. Performing any maneuver other than an attack maneuver removes these penalties immediately.
Full Phase Actions: any action listed as a full phase acton (other than Move maneuvers) can be performed in one Phase, but at the sacrifice of the character's next Phase (it takes two Phases to perform what was previously a full phase action). Performing two "double phase" attacks in a row do not incure the multiple attack penalty above.

Well, that's what I got for now... what does everyone think? Shoot some holes in it, plug some holes...something.

The only problem I see up front is record keeping. If you attack on 3, you have to remember that to attack on 5 will give you a -2 OCV and 1/2 DCV. 1/2 DCV seems like a LOT. I would instead think maybe a higher OCV penalty and no DCV penalty.

One of the biggest problems you are going to run across is that characters are now going to want to attack 10 times for that SPD 5 (equivalent).

Because of the opportunity to attack so many more times in a Turn, I can see END expenditures getting nasty.

Combat could also take a serious twist. MartialArty has a 10 OCV and BrickyMcStrong has a DCV of 5. MartialArty is going to be just peachy attacking 4 times in a row and accept the -6 OCV penalty, move one phase (or just not attack), and 4 more attacks. Throw on some martial OCV bonus and a couple of levels and Arty is going to be throwing around (with a 6 SPD equivalent) 10 attacks in a 24 phase Turn. OUCH!

Oh, that reminds me. What about Recoveries? You have to use two "new phases" or you only get 1/2 REC per New Phase?

[SpydirShellX]

My thought is about aborts.
Previously if you took a full phase action, you could still abort (which took up your next full phase. As it stands, either you could go in debt 3 phases or 2 phases and there'd be a time between the first and second half of the abort that would be a problem.

In addition, no longer could you move and then hold half an action for your abort. Unless you want the extra record keeping. Es. OK, I began blocking less than two phases ago, so I can still block.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...

The main reason I am thinking of this is to avoid the rather odd system at present where The Stuttering Stoat (Dex 24, Spd 5, 10" running) and The Bibilous Blaster (Dex 23, Spd 5) face each other along a street, some 10 metres apart and The Stoat can run over to The Blaster and get him in a head lock before The Blaster can get a shot off. Under the new regime, SS will run over, then BB will get a go before SS can attack (unless SS uses a move through, grab-by or whatever i.e. takes some penalty for moving and attacking).

...snip...


Per this example I have to agree with Dust Raven that the existing 'Hurry' mechanic already covers this situation.

[Sir Ofeelya]

For heroic level games I use the random phase determination method. Most characters/NPCs are SPD 2-4. So, I roll a d6 to determine what phase it is. If I roll a 1, then everyone acts AND gets a post-12. If I roll a 2 then all those SPD 2+ can act, and so forth. Works well and means that combat cannot be planned out a week in advance.

[secretID]

My biggest problem with the speed system is that certain things - movement, END for continuous powers - should be based on segment rather than phase. Applied to Sean's original example, that would mean that Stoat and Blaster spend the first few segments maneuvering around, preparing to strike, during which Stoat gets close to Blaster. When their phase comes, they're standing right next to each other, and Stoat is a tad quicker.

[keithcurtis]

Here are some simpler solutions to the original problem.

1. Allow Attack and Move.

2. Go through each segment twice. The first time is for the initial half move. The second time is for the second half move. Full phase actions take place in the second half move period, but must be declared in the first.

Neither of these requires mucking with recoveries of drains or such.

Personally, I treat all combat as heavily abstracted as to what occurs when. When I run my online campaign, I log several phases of combat and then re-write them into narrative form for posting. When I do the re-write, I will frequently change the order or duration of events for logical or dramatic sense. In no case will what I change affect the outcome of any hit or damage rolls. Example. Character A fumbles. Character B hits Character A. When I rewrite this, I might state that Character B hits character B in the hand (hit), causing him to drop his sword (fumble). Different order, same outcome. Dramatic narrative from abstracted action.

Keith "but that's me" Curtis

[Sean Waters]

Hurry is OK as a way to slightly randomise combat orderwhen combattants have similar DEX, but nothing more than that, and there is, of course, nothing to stop them both hurrying.

Attack and move would not help in the given example: The Stuttering Stoat has to move before he can attack.

I did think of running each half of the phase seperately on DEX, but that seemed like a lot of trouble, and that is why I came to the conclusion that the problem was that you can do more than one thing in a phase and, as a rule, you do.

Set, Snapshot, Rapid Fire, Recover from Stun and Sweep all require a full phase, but they are not things most people do 'all the time' This would definitely make sweep and rapid fire a lot less useful if you had to take an 'extra phase', so I think I'd rule that current 'full phase' actions still take one 'new' phase but go off at the END of the phase after all 1/2 phase actions, in DEX order if more than one character is taking a full phase action. Haymaker would take an extra segment just as now.

I'm also thinking of a 'Fly-by' manouvre that enables you to take a ranged attack AT SOME POINT during a full move action at a -2/-2 OCV/DCV penalty (just like move-by does for melee attacks).

[tesuji]

Fifthly it effectively halves movement rates per turn, but again that is a change that applies acros the board.


This is wrong. De facto it eliminates movement rates per turn as it puts each movement as an ALTERNATIVE to an attack, not an ADDITIOn to an attack.

a speed 5 guy who stands there and shoots 5 times is going to be the choice much much more often than one who moves three times and shoots twice.

I think you will see a lot of "stand and slam" fights instead of the more fluid moving furrballs you see with a half-move and attack.

HERO currently addresses your stepping problem with held actions. If the waiting guyhas a held action, if he went first, he can interrupt the approaching guy.

1. An alternative which might make things work more is to resolve a given segment TWICE... everyone goes thru init order once, doing just a hal-action, then repeat with everyone doing the last half. That gets you your free interruption but at the expense of twice as many "actions" taking time (not really actions but two stops for each one.)

2. A more radical idea is to drop the init order in a segment. Have everyone who acts in a segment annoucne their actions, then resolve them based on THE ACTION (free before half before full etc), not the ACTOR (Dex order highest to lowest, current rules.)

So in that case, everyone announces, and the Gm put mr run across and strike going after mr "shoot him at range" assuming shoot 'em has his weapon out.

many many games use the ACTOR based init (when your time comes up, do whatever you do, can be visualized as "the camera is on you so do stuff") but others, like unisystem, use the ACTION based one (all announce and resolve in order based on WHAT is being done: fire weapon in hand = quick, rush and tackle = not so quick.)

this one lowers the value of dexterity as it no longer lets you act first in a segment... not that thats a bad thing necessarily.

[zornwil]

Hurry is OK as a way to slightly randomise combat orderwhen combattants have similar DEX, but nothing more than that, and there is, of course, nothing to stop them both hurrying.

Attack and move would not help in the given example: The Stuttering Stoat has to move before he can attack.

I did think of running each half of the phase seperately on DEX, but that seemed like a lot of trouble, and that is why I came to the conclusion that the problem was that you can do more than one thing in a phase and, as a rule, you do.

Set, Snapshot, Rapid Fire, Recover from Stun and Sweep all require a full phase, but they are not things most people do 'all the time' This would definitely make sweep and rapid fire a lot less useful if you had to take an 'extra phase', so I think I'd rule that current 'full phase' actions still take one 'new' phase but go off at the END of the phase after all 1/2 phase actions, in DEX order if more than one character is taking a full phase action. Haymaker would take an extra segment just as now.

I'm also thinking of a 'Fly-by' manouvre that enables you to take a ranged attack AT SOME POINT during a full move action at a -2/-2 OCV/DCV penalty (just like move-by does for melee attacks).
FWIW, I did half phases in another game and I found it to be no significant trouble. Many actions become simpler ("I move" - "okay, next'), even though as you say you do have the double-rotation through the phase. Just my 2 cents from actual play as an FYI.

[Utech]

You might want to consider implementing something along the lines of the Dexterity and Order of Attack rules in Call of Cthulhu. I would not actually go through all of these steps with players in combat (as it would really slow things down), but these would serve as guidelines when it comes to solving disputes such as the one Sean originally posted.

On any given phase you would follow these steps:

STEP 1
In DEX order:
Aimed and ready simple-action ranged powers fire.
All such powers with the Autofire Advantage fire once.
All such powers used to Rapid Fire fire once.
Typical powers that fire in step 1 include:

firearms
bows
crossbows
other similarly-themed powers as appropriate (lasers from eyes, psionic blast, ranged energy drain, etc) Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 2.

STEP 2
In DEX order all Autofire or Rapid Fire attacks started in step 1 fire again. Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 3.

STEP 3
In DEX order:
Simple-action ranged powers (see step 1) that were not aimed or ready fire.
Complex-action ranged powers fire.

slings
bows that did not have arrows at the ready
other similarly-themed powers as appropriate (those with Gestures, those with Concentration, etc)Hand-to-hand attacks are resolved.
Hand-to-hand autofire attacks are launched only once.
Hand-to-hand Sweep attacks are made against only the first target.
Autofire or Rapid Fire attacks started in step 1 fire again.
Autofire or Rapid Fire attacks started in step 3 fire only once.
Because these characters have used an attack power they may not move in this phase.
Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 4.

STEP 4
In DEX order all Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks started in steps 1 and 3 fire again.
Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 5.

STEP 5
In DEX order all movement occurs. Any characters who have launched attacks in steps 1 through 4 are unable to move.
Movement-based attacks such as Move Through and Move By are resolved.
Those using the Snap Shot maneuver step out from behind cover at this time but do not fire until step 6.
All Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks started in steps 1 and 3 fire again.
Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 6.

STEP 6
In DEX order:
Ranged Powers fire.
Hand-to-hand attacks are resolved.
All Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks started in step 6 fire once.
All Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks started in steps 1 and 3 fire again.
Upon reaching DEX 0, reset to highest DEX and move to step 7.

STEPS 7+
In DEX order all Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks started in steps 1, 3 or 6 fire again.
Upon reaching DEX 0 reset to highest DEX and move to next step.
Haymaker attacks go off after all Autofire, Rapid Fire or Sweep attacks have been resolved.

Phase ends when no more actions are left to resolve.

[Sean Waters]

This is wrong. De facto it eliminates movement rates per turn as it puts each movement as an ALTERNATIVE to an attack, not an ADDITIOn to an attack.

a speed 5 guy who stands there and shoots 5 times is going to be the choice much much more often than one who moves three times and shoots twice.

I think you will see a lot of "stand and slam" fights instead of the more fluid moving furrballs you see with a half-move and attack.

HERO currently addresses your stepping problem with held actions. If the waiting guyhas a held action, if he went first, he can interrupt the approaching guy.

1. An alternative which might make things work more is to resolve a given segment TWICE... everyone goes thru init order once, doing just a hal-action, then repeat with everyone doing the last half. That gets you your free interruption but at the expense of twice as many "actions" taking time (not really actions but two stops for each one.)

2. A more radical idea is to drop the init order in a segment. Have everyone who acts in a segment annoucne their actions, then resolve them based on THE ACTION (free before half before full etc), not the ACTOR (Dex order highest to lowest, current rules.)

So in that case, everyone announces, and the Gm put mr run across and strike going after mr "shoot him at range" assuming shoot 'em has his weapon out.

many many games use the ACTOR based init (when your time comes up, do whatever you do, can be visualized as "the camera is on you so do stuff") but others, like unisystem, use the ACTION based one (all announce and resolve in order based on WHAT is being done: fire weapon in hand = quick, rush and tackle = not so quick.)

this one lowers the value of dexterity as it no longer lets you act first in a segment... not that thats a bad thing necessarily.


This is a very intersting point, although I would not quite agree with your conclusion that it would eliminate movement in a lot of combats: what it would do is eliminate the need to move in consensual fights: where one protagonist feels out-gunned and wants to avoid combat I can see there being a lot of tactical movemnet - in fact it might go too far the other way - movement, wehn cover is available, would effectvely prevent combat from happening:

Magnanimous Mag-Man: I'll duck behind cover
Querillous Quarrel: Can I see him? No? OK, I'll move to get a line of sight with my cross bow...
Magnanimous Mag-Man: I'll duck behind cover

OTOH this is not too much of a problem from a game POV for three reasons:

First if I do allow the 'fly-by' manouvre I mentioned earlier QQ can still attack, albeit at a penalty.

Second this kind of 'trying to avoid being hit' tactic is a genre staple, but pretty hard to do in Hero - standard defensive manouvres are of limited effectiveness when the game is set up to expect a better than 50% hit ratio from matched opponents.

Third, it is not likely to be the heroes doing all the ducking, and so, as the villains are GM controlled, this sort of scenario is only likely to take place when the GM wants it to. I mean, PCs could cnostantly duck behind cover but then you get this:

Rampaging Ravisher: <grabs free-standing passer-by> Come out and fight, Cowled Crusader, or I'll snap her neck like a spaghetti stick!


It seems to me that this increases tactical options, at least potentially.

I will definitely give it a go when I next run a game, which might weell not be for a few weeks, and report back.

[Sean Waters]

You might want to consider implementing something along the lines of the Dexterity and Order of Attack rules in Call of Cthulhu. I would not actually go through all of these steps with players in combat (as it would really slow things down), but these would serve as guidelines when it comes to solving disputes such as the one Sean originally posted.

On any given phase you would follow these steps:
........................

Whilst I'm sure that is more straightforward in actual play than it looks it is still going to require a bit of a change from the current system in that I am not clear how it impliments the 'two half actions per phase' concept we currently run. I'll bear it in mind though when tinkering, and see how it goes.

[Daeger]

I don't see how this would solve the move and attack problem.. there are maneuvers such as charge that have the FMove quality.

Plus, this'll really screw up any character who relies on some velocity damage.

I think a more effective and simpler solution would be taking turns for half-phase actions within the same phase. That means Blaster will take a half-phase action, moving over to him, Stoat will go, and then Blaster and then Stoat again. And of course, if either of them does an attack action, they don't get their second half-phase.

This would, in effect, force Blaster whether to do some sort of move-and-attack maneuver to make sure he lands the first blow, or not waste his second half-phase action and do something else, but is taking a risk because Stoat will take an action before he gets his next.

[Sean Waters]

I don't see how this would solve the move and attack problem.. there are maneuvers such as charge that have the FMove quality.

Plus, this'll really screw up any character who relies on some velocity damage.

I think a more effective and simpler solution would be taking turns for half-phase actions within the same phase. That means Blaster will take a half-phase action, moving over to him, Stoat will go, and then Blaster and then Stoat again. And of course, if either of them does an attack action, they don't get their second half-phase.

This would, in effect, force Blaster whether to do some sort of move-and-attack maneuver to make sure he lands the first blow, or not waste his second half-phase action and do something else, but is taking a risk because Stoat will take an action before he gets his next.

Two half phases would probably screw up velocity damage characters more:

SS half moves toward BB but does not get there.
BB takes a half move away from SS
SS takes another half move towards BB but, because BB has moved, doesn't get there
BB shoots SS

What having a single action per phase would do would be to remove the need for half moves (always a slightly dodgy concept, given the advantages of rounding), but does not stop characters moving of FMove attacking with move through or move by. What it does stop them doing is moving and punching: there is already a penalty to both OCV and DCV built into move based attacks.

With a single action per phase, SS has the choice of moving into melee range and waiting, hoping that BB won't move away or shoot him OR doing some sort of move through/move by manouvre.

Actually that has given me a thought about move throughs and move bys, but I will post that elsewhere to reduce clutter.

[zornwil]

Second this kind of 'trying to avoid being hit' tactic is a genre staple, but pretty hard to do in Hero - (snip)

Actually it's easy.

Duck For Cover - Desolid....

:D :lol:

[Utech]

Whilst I'm sure that is more straightforward in actual play than it looks it is still going to require a bit of a change from the current system in that I am not clear how it impliments the 'two half actions per phase' concept we currently run. I'll bear it in mind though when tinkering, and see how it goes.

I know it's a lot of information to read through. But the system is really very simple and does not change anything about the two half actions per phase concept.

The Stuttering Stoat (Dex 24, Spd 5, 10" running) and The Bibilous Blaster (Dex 23, Spd 5) face each other along a street, some 10 metres apart. Using the steps I posted earlier the Blaster can shoot the Stoat before the Stoat can run over and get him in a head lock.

[Just Joe]

I misread the suggestion at first. I thought you (SeanWaters) were saying that full actions (including full moves) would be completed in the next segment. Movement per turn would be unaffected (well, except that phase 12 moves would be completed in segment 1). Velocity-based damage could be calculated as if a full move had been made, unless the GM determined that not enough distance was covered to accelerate to full velocity. I really don't think you'd have to muck with much else. This approach is somewhere between your initial suggestion and the "run through a phase twice" suggestions. It would not work easily for games with speeds of 7 and up, but the kind of realism you are looking for probably has less of a place in most such games anyway.

I'd probably allow any character to abort who has not attacked in the current phase. Alternatively, you could just treat the new rule as if everyone with a full phase is required to hold of a half-phase action until the next segment.

I'm not sure how to handle the problem of the an opponent avoiding LOS by taking cover every time an attacker moves into LOS. My guess is that there's a solution that makes the new approach superior to the standard rules in terms of both realism and tactical flexibility, but I'm not prepared to back up that statement at this moment.

[archermoo]

2. Go through each segment twice. The first time is for the initial half move. The second time is for the second half move. Full phase actions take place in the second half move period, but must be declared in the first.

Hmm, I kind of like this idea. I may have to give it a try sometime... :thumbup:

[Trebuchet]

I think we should just keep dividing each Phase into ever smaller increments until we finally find out how long '0 Phase' Actions really take. I'm theorizing it'll be approximately 0.01384 +/- 0.00031 Phases.

Go ahead and run the experiment. I'll wait. :whistle:

[Sean Waters]

I think we should just keep dividing each Phase into ever smaller increments until we finally find out how long '0 Phase' Actions really take. I'm theorizing it'll be approximately 0.01384 +/- 0.031 Phases.

Go ahead and run the experiment. I'll wait. :whistle:

Ah, the search for Fundamental Heroic Particles (FHPs).

is there any way of hiding this bit of the thread from Christopher?

[Dust Raven]

The only problem I see up front is record keeping. If you attack on 3, you have to remember that to attack on 5 will give you a -2 OCV and 1/2 DCV. 1/2 DCV seems like a LOT. I would instead think maybe a higher OCV penalty and no DCV penalty.

One of the biggest problems you are going to run across is that characters are now going to want to attack 10 times for that SPD 5 (equivalent).

Because of the opportunity to attack so many more times in a Turn, I can see END expenditures getting nasty.

Combat could also take a serious twist. MartialArty has a 10 OCV and BrickyMcStrong has a DCV of 5. MartialArty is going to be just peachy attacking 4 times in a row and accept the -6 OCV penalty, move one phase (or just not attack), and 4 more attacks. Throw on some martial OCV bonus and a couple of levels and Arty is going to be throwing around (with a 6 SPD equivalent) 10 attacks in a 24 phase Turn. OUCH!

Oh, that reminds me. What about Recoveries? You have to use two "new phases" or you only get 1/2 REC per New Phase?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.

Record keeping isn't the only problem with it, though it's definatley the largest. It's gonna effectively double the time it takes to run combats in addition to the problems you mentioned. Taking a Recovery would require two phases under my suggested method.

I should say I don't recomend this method; it's much easier just to use Hurry, or maybe Hip Shot. Lightning Reflexes is also a good choice for those who want to be particularly quick at things like this.

[Sean Waters]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.

Record keeping isn't the only problem with it, though it's definatley the largest. It's gonna effectively double the time it takes to run combats in addition to the problems you mentioned. Taking a Recovery would require two phases under my suggested method.

I should say I don't recomend this method; it's much easier just to use Hurry, or maybe Hip Shot. Lightning Reflexes is also a good choice for those who want to be particularly quick at things like this.

I've got nothing in my head
Got a floor for a bed
The future's at the bottom of a tea cup

I got a half a pair of shoes
And no time to lose
I'm wondering when I'm going to wise up

You might be wondering the same thing, but surely one phase/one action is about as easy as you can get.

[Dust Raven]

You might be wondering the same thing, but surely one phase/one action is about as easy as you can get.

Easy is boring. If I wanted easy, I'd be playing yacht or ludo.

[SpydirShellX]

Hmm... new idea
For the full phase actions...
Hold an action - if you hold an action until the start of your next phase, you can use it to perform a full phase action.

You'd still probably have to keep track of whether you moved in the previous phase for move throughs/bys.

You could turn the Recovery action into a action that only requires 1 of the new phases, but only recovers 1/2 REC.