Bricks and Improvised Weapons

[Katherine]

When a brick picks up a large object to use it as an Area of Effect attack does that count as an Attack Action that ends his phase or can they pick it up and swing it in one half phase?

I ask because I'm playing a martial artist fighting a brick with out the same speed as my PC. If I attack him, can he just rip up a chunk of romsething and pound me since I can't even abort to dive for cover until the next segment?

[Bloodstone]

Is the brick definitely using raw STR or does he have something like an EB, Range based on STR?

If he's using ram STR, I have played with those that will allow a character to pick up and hurl something in a single action as long as it weighs less than his Casual STR...

[Katherine]

He's using his base strength and he's not tossing the the girder at my character, he's going to use it HTH.

[Bloodstone]

Oops, my misunderstanding. Same difference really though.

[Katherine]

Well, that sucks. It takes a half phase to draw a gun but it doesn't take an action at all to pick up a girder or a car to hit someone with and it ignores their DCV? That would mean I can't really attack him at all. I've got to wait until he acts so I can Dive For Cover, which his just going to cost me my entire Phase.

[Vondy]

Personally, I think its logical, if not strictly in adherence with the rules, to require a half-phase action to pick up an object. I've know GM's who have considered it a "grab attack" and therefore a phase-ending action, and GM's who allow it as a zero-phase action. I think requiring a half-phase action is a good compromise between the two positions. As for being a martial artist fighting a brick with the same speed, there's no requirement that you go first. You could use movement and the local terrain to minimize or eliminate his ability to use the car effectively - and you could hold actions to dive for cover until he's trashed the car (it probably won't survive more than a few swings). You should be able to work your way into some attacks, though a brick, due to point recursion, damage classes, and defenses will have the advantage if he has the same speed (and is built on the same number of points).

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't think it's unfair to rule that the Brick has to use a half phase to grab an improvised weapon, the same as drawing a gun. If the object is more than his casual STR could lift, I would also rule that he uses an attack action to lift it.

Uhe has WF: Large Object of Opportunity, I would impose the -3 penalty for using an unfamiliar weapon. WF only takes you so far. It would seem reasonable to impose a further penalty if the item is awkward, heavy (over casual STR to lift) or otherwise difficult to use as a weapon.

I would generally also require the object be very large to get AoE bonuses. In the case of a 1 or 2 hex object, I'd be more inclined to apply the DCV penalty for that size as an OCV bonus.

STR is sufficiently powerful that I don't see the need to enhance its effectiveness by making it easy to convert to free AoE and ranged attacks.

OTOH, I would also allow a sufficiently large, hard object to increase the damage done (with the size and hardness being relative to the user's STR - a tire iron will add damage for Marvin the 10 STR mentalist, but it won't do much for Grond.

[Trebuchet]

Pretty much what Hugh says. Picking up a large object doesn't have to be a Phase-ending Action; but I think it's only reasonable for it to be a half-Phase Action. So if Joe Brick picks up a Buick to hit Jane Jujitsu, he could either half-move with it and end his Phase or swing it which is only useful if Jane is in HtH range.

An MA against an equal SPD brick is in trouble anyway IMO. That's precisely why MAs have those extra Phases: So they can get in some attacks between dodging and Diving for Cover.

Of course, the MA can always seek more advantageous terrain, such as a tall building or underground tunnel - it's hard to swing (or find!) a car on the 20th floor of a skyscraper. And Martial Throw and Shove are very effective when the victim goes out the skyscraper's window and falls 40". Ouch! :eg:

[Sean Waters]

Why pick up a large object? To get bonuses to your chance to hit. That means it is going to be and probably unweildly, being improvised.

If you are giving away such freebies to theck I think it logical to penalise them in time, both in terms of rule logic and game logic.

Personally I would be with the 'take a grab action' crowd.

Why?

Well, first of all it you wanted to grab an object while you are in combat you need to concentrate on it to an extent, which means taking your eye off your opponent, while still dodging, ducking and diving: you don't leave combat, pick it up, then start again. Getting hold of an object, whilst you are in combat with an opponent actively trying to stop you is NOT a straightforward proposition, so I would say it requires a grab roll, and if it requires a grab roll then that would be an attack action.

Now depending on how much realism you want to inject, here's a couple of things you might want to consider: first of all when using a large object in melee, assuming that object is long and heavy (probably heavier than the character) then the brick may be required to 'dig in' to be able to swing it - i.e. use a manouvre like the one you would to resist KB. This will make all attacks with large objects like that effectively full phase actions (the brick also gets the advantages of being 'dug in' though - i.e. reduced KB)

Secondly don't forget that objects used as weapons are likely to break - always guestimate the DEF and BODY of improvised weapons as they are likely to fall apart in use.

[Sean Waters]

Picking up an object to throw is slightly different. The grab manouvre allows you to grab a target and throw it in the same action, so you could certainly do that with an object. However, the grab manouvre contemplates you trying to damage the grabbed object, not trying to aim it at another target so it would be logical to apply penalties if you wanted to do so, or disallow it altogether as a single action if you wanted to.

I would still say that large and bulky objects would need to be stabilised before they could be attacked with, which would be a half phase action.

[Hugh Neilson]

Picking up an object to throw is slightly different. The grab manouvre allows you to grab a target and throw it in the same action, so you could certainly do that with an object. However, the grab manouvre contemplates you trying to damage the grabbed object, not trying to aim it at another target so it would be logical to apply penalties if you wanted to do so, or disallow it altogether as a single action if you wanted to.

I would still say that large and bulky objects would need to be stabilised before they could be attacked with, which would be a half phase action.

Let's get the official word on this, to the extent possible.


Q: Can a character make a Half Move, Grab an object, and then Throw that object at another character, and if so what rolls are required?

A: He can make the Half Move, and he can Grab and Throw the object. However, since the Grab and Throw require an Attack Action, that’s going to end his Phase. He can’t make a second attack by throwing the object at someone — he can only throw the object not as an attack, to damage it itself.

The character must make an Attack Roll to hit the object, which has a DCV based on its size (5ER 382). Standard modifiers, like the Range Modifier, apply.

The GM may make an exception to this rule if he wishes, but doing so may make Grab And Throw a far too attractive tactic for some characters. In this case, the character has to make a second Attack Roll against the target at whom he’s throwing the object.

OK, if I want to Throw the object, I can use a half phase to Grab it, but the followup Throw that comes free against a Grabbed target cannot target anyone else. If I want to throw the object at something (or someone) else, I need to wait for my next phase. So if that Brick wants to Grab a Buick and Throw it at that pesky Martial Artist, he has to spend one phase to pick the Buick up, and a second to Throw it, based on the above.

Let's assume the Martial Artist is in HTH range. It seems reasonable to apply the same rules that the Brick must Grab the Buick to pick it up, which is an attack action. He could Throw the Buick, but he can't aim it at anyone. He could Squeeze the Buick, but that kind of defeats the purpose of picking it up. If he wants to swing the Buick at that Martial Artist, he's just going to have to wait until his next phase.

Now, I suppose nothing stop the, say, 5 SPD Brick reserving his action in one phase, say Phase 3, until 1 DEX in Phase 4, so he can pick the Buick then and swing it on his DEX in Phase 5. But I would say he can't Grab the weapon of opportunity AND swing with it in a single phase, as that would constitute two separate attack actions.

[Sean Waters]

Where Hero is weakest is where it tries to be 'fair'.

If you pick up and throw something there is a chance, even if your 'throw' is in an entirely random direction, that it will hit an enemy and damage them.

Suggesting that you can pick up and throw something as a single half phase action, but there is no possibility of hitting something else is patently ridiculous.

Damn balance, damn fairness and, frankly, damn anything that makes a game system counter-intuitive.

By all means apply penalties to hit something, but don't burst the bubble - if I have enough strenght to pick up and throw a battleship, the darned thing has to land SOMEWHERE.

[Hugh Neilson]

Where Hero is weakest is where it tries to be 'fair'.

If you pick up and throw something there is a chance, even if your 'throw' is in an entirely random direction, that it will hit an enemy and damage them.

Suggesting that you can pick up and throw something as a single half phase action, but there is no possibility of hitting something else is patently ridiculous.

I'd be OK with an OCV 0 to target the direction you want to throw it in (failure moves it 1 hex left or right, chosen at random), and anything in its line is targetted at OCV 0, with range modifiers applying. That "anything" would include both friend and foe, of course.


Damn balance, damn fairness and, frankly, damn anything that makes a game system counter-intuitive.

By all means apply penalties to hit something, but don't burst the bubble - if I have enough strenght to pick up and throw a battleship, the darned thing has to land SOMEWHERE.

Well, "balance" and "intuition" do sometimes tend to be in opposition.

Another approach is to give STR the abilities you think it should intuitively have, and reprice it accordingly.

Even less intuitive would be "oh, you can throw it at someone in the same phase, but you can't swing it at someone n the same phase". If I can grab the buick and throw it at that Martial Artist 6 hexes away, surely I can swing it at the Speedster standing right beside me.

I'd also be OK wth eliminating "you can throw in the same phase you grab" and restricting the choices to "grab and squeeze", "grab and hold on" or "grab and drop", always requiring the Throw to be a separate attack action. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Dust Raven]

By all means apply penalties to hit something, but don't burst the bubble - if I have enough strenght to pick up and throw a battleship, the darned thing has to land SOMEWHERE.

I somewhat agree, but I also stay within the official ruling on this. In the case of anything large enough to be an AoE larger than a single hex, I almost always require the character to spend a second attack action to throw it or smash it somewhere, simply because it could hit something else. This fits within my concept of genre realism because no matter how strong a character is, they always seem to dramatically (and deliberately/slowly) heaft their huge improvised weapon over their head, pause and inhale, then swing/hurl with a mighty grunt.

[Sean Waters]

...................

Even less intuitive would be "oh, you can throw it at someone in the same phase, but you can't swing it at someone n the same phase". If I can grab the buick and throw it at that Martial Artist 6 hexes away, surely I can swing it at the Speedster standing right beside me.

I'd also be OK wth eliminating "you can throw in the same phase you grab" and restricting the choices to "grab and squeeze", "grab and hold on" or "grab and drop", always requiring the Throw to be a separate attack action. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

...and we could spend all day arguing about what you can use strength for: get 4 Herophiles in a chatroom togther, and pretty soon you'll have 8 different opinions :)

I agree that there is a bit of a disconnect between 'grab and swing' and 'grab and throw' The reason, I think, that Hero allows the 'Grab and throw' is a game-logic one: normally to manipulate a grabbed opponent on a subsequent phase requires another attack roll.

It may be that one way you could adjudicate this is to allow objects you can manipulate with casual strength to be grabbed and used as a full phase action, and larger objects as an 'extra phase' action.

Personally I'd be happy to leave it at 'phase to grab and a phase to use'.

[gojira]

By all means apply penalties to hit something, but don't burst the bubble - if I have enough strenght to pick up and throw a battleship, the darned thing has to land SOMEWHERE.

I tend to agree. SFX is king.


I somewhat agree, but I also stay within the official ruling on this. In the case of anything large enough to be an AoE larger than a single hex, I almost always require the character to spend a second attack action to throw it or smash it somewhere, simply because it could hit something else. This fits within my concept of genre realism because no matter how strong a character is, they always seem to dramatically (and deliberately/slowly) heaft their huge improvised weapon over their head, pause and inhale, then swing/hurl with a mighty grunt.

This works for me also.

As a general (house) rule, one might require an Attack to pick up a large, unbalanced object. A lighter (< casual STR) balanced object can be picked up with a Half-Phase, ready to use.

Since even Steve admits that that a Half-Move, Grab and Throw in a single phase is pushing the limits of the system, one might require a Power Tricks roll to execute this maneuver. Power Tricks rolls should not be allowed every Phase, maybe once per Turn at most.

As a defensive maneuver, an object may be picked up and thrown/shoved. This requires an Abort, and then a Power Tricks roll. If the roll is failed, then the Abort is wasted. If the PT roll succeeds, then a reasonable SFX Block or Missile Deflection is allowed. The attack may be intercepted by the thrown missile, or a teammate knocked out of the way. A villain might have his attack disrupted by the thrown object striking him, or an OAF knocked out of his hand.

Hmm, a special cap for Power Tricks might want to be put in place by a GM. Even if Science and Knowledge skills are allowed up to 20, PT might be held back to the 10-12 range for beginning characters, just to keep all the PT stuff in check. Advancement and CP points should be restricted too, just to keep character from loading up on PT too fast.

My 2 bucks.

[Arkham]

The way I run it, grabbing something to either swing or throw requires an attack action. BUT you can grab and swing or throw with a Sweep maneuver with all the usual limits to that. ( -2 OCV, 1/2 DCB, No half-move without Rapid Attack, etc )

[nexus]

I'm considering using the Spreading Strength rules from the Ultimate Brick.

[Hugh Neilson]

Personally I'd be happy to leave it at 'phase to grab and a phase to use'.

Agreed - which is Steve's answer on the Rules Questions board.

[Kid Jurassic]

Interesting.

Now I play an electromagnetic character. Think lodestone meets thunderbolt.

Does it work the same way using my elemental control of Magnetokinesis to pick up and attack same phase?

[Dust Raven]

I agree that there is a bit of a disconnect between 'grab and swing' and 'grab and throw'

There is? I thought it was the same rule for each: If you're aiming at someone else, it takes a second attack action. So you can use a Grab to get your hands on the car. As part of that action, you can crush the car, smash the car into the ground, throw the car, or just swing it around like some hot shot. But if you want to aim that swing, throw or smash at some other target, you need to do so on your next Phase as part of another attack action. Have I got that right?

[Sean Waters]

One way you could sort of do this is with the sweep manouvre: full phase, 1/2 DCV, -2 on the grab (not a problem as it is a stationary large object) and -2 on the subsequent attack (be it swing or throw).

In following phases, assuming you still had hold of the object and it was still intact, you could make an attack normally.

[Sean Waters]

There is? I thought it was the same rule for each: If you're aiming at someone else, it takes a second attack action. So you can use a Grab to get your hands on the car. As part of that action, you can crush the car, smash the car into the ground, throw the car, or just swing it around like some hot shot. But if you want to aim that swing, throw or smash at some other target, you need to do so on your next Phase as part of another attack action. Have I got that right?

Right but illogical (the rules, not you DR:))

I don't see how grabbing and throwing a huge object can ever really mean that it cannot hit something. Example:

Character A is standing one side of the tank, Character B the other. Character A grabs and flips the tank over, and it is large enough to fill charcter B's hex and several others. What happens?

Common sense would tell us that Character B is in danger, the rules tell us Character B is not, or that it takes twice as long to flip if there is someone in the way.

[Sean Waters]

Interesting.

Now I play an electromagnetic character. Think lodestone meets thunderbolt.

Does it work the same way using my elemental control of Magnetokinesis to pick up and attack same phase?

Well yes, on the face of it - a TK grab works just like a normal grab. OTOH you might say that the rapidly moving metallic object is just the sfx of your TK punch - but then I would not allow you any size of object based OCV bonus, or object based AoE, or whatever.

[gojira]

Right but illogical (the rules, not you DR:))

I don't see how grabbing and throwing a huge object can ever really mean that it cannot hit something. Example:

Hmm, GURPS has the concept of an un-aimed blow. That is, basically you'll hit someone by accident. GURPS applies it to both ranged combat and HTH (weapons actually). The penalty is basically the same as fighting with your eyes closed. It's -9 for an un-aimed blow, vs -10 for being in complete darkness.

I gotta admit, GURPS does have several corner cases like this figured out. It'd be nice to see HERO adopt a few more rules regarding weird situations like this.

So maybe grabbing and swinging/throwing could use a similar concept. It's an "un-aimed blow" and there's a huge penalty associated with basically tossing or swinging something and hoping for the best. There should be no skill levels allowed for un-aimed blow, but I think HERO should allow Luck to offset the penalty, at least in the more cinematic genres.

[Valerious]

My thought on the matter is that if a brick wants to be able to grab and throw an object at someone in a single phase, he should probably buy an AoE(probably 1 hex) EB with the object of opportunity limitation.

Doing it with STR alone, I find one phase to grab, and another to aim and throw the object to be reasonable.

[Sean Waters]

As a bit of an aside, simply applying OCV penalties may not work well as large objects often carry an OCV bonus or are treated as AoE (I prefer doing the former, generally).

For this reason, I think any fix should involve extra time and maybe DCV penalties (although DCV penalties are often meaningless to a brick).

[Dust Raven]

Right but illogical (the rules, not you DR:))

I don't see how grabbing and throwing a huge object can ever really mean that it cannot hit something. Example:

Character A is standing one side of the tank, Character B the other. Character A grabs and flips the tank over, and it is large enough to fill charcter B's hex and several others. What happens?

Common sense would tell us that Character B is in danger, the rules tell us Character B is not, or that it takes twice as long to flip if there is someone in the way.
Hence my house rule, if there's no avoiding targeting another character, it takes an extra action to toss/swing/smash automatically.

[Hugh Neilson]

Right but illogical (the rules, not you DR:))

I don't see how grabbing and throwing a huge object can ever really mean that it cannot hit something. Example:

Character A is standing one side of the tank, Character B the other. Character A grabs and flips the tank over, and it is large enough to fill charcter B's hex and several others. What happens?

Common sense would tell us that Character B is in danger, the rules tell us Character B is not, or that it takes twice as long to flip if there is someone in the way.

Another approach is to try and interpret the game mechanics narratively. Sure, you can flip the tank in the same phase you grab it, however this allows for no real aiming, so it is simple for any target to duck under or leap over the tank, or get positioned where the tank part doesn't hit the ground (using a space created between turret and treads when it lands, for example), or otherwise avoid in a manner appropriate to the character in question and specific situation. It's so easy, no one needs to roll.

However, if you spend the extra time to try and pin the opponent(s), it becomes much more difficult for them to evade the tank, and you now get an attack roll.

[bigdamnhero]

OK, so here's a quesion. Let's a say a brick takes an Energy Blast with the sfx "throwing heavy stuff" and the Limitation "objects of opportunity." Does he still have to take two seperate phases: one to grab the object, and one to throw it? If so, what does that do to the value of the Limitation?

[bigdamnhero]

OTOH, I would also allow a sufficiently large, hard object to increase the damage done (with the size and hardness being relative to the user's STR - a tire iron will add damage for Marvin the 10 STR mentalist, but it won't do much for Grond.
Yes, I frequently give players a bonus d6 for using appropriate improvised weapons. It just makes sense (to me) that hitting someone with a large, solid object will generally do more damage than hitting them with a fist. Besides, it's fun to have characters ripping up pieces of terrain and smacking each other with them. :)

[Hyper-Man]

OK, so here's a quesion. Let's a say a brick takes an Energy Blast with the sfx "throwing heavy stuff" and the Limitation "objects of opportunity." Does he still have to take two seperate phases: one to grab the object, and one to throw it? If so, what does that do to the value of the Limitation?

I'd say he paid points for the ability and did not take an extra time limitation so he should be able to grab incidental objects as a non-attack 1/2 phase action. However, he would still have to take 2 phases if he wanted to grab a character and throw them at another character or specific target.

[Sean Waters]

Another approach is to try and interpret the game mechanics narratively. Sure, you can flip the tank in the same phase you grab it, however this allows for no real aiming, so it is simple for any target to duck under or leap over the tank, or get positioned where the tank part doesn't hit the ground (using a space created between turret and treads when it lands, for example), or otherwise avoid in a manner appropriate to the character in question and specific situation. It's so easy, no one needs to roll.

However, if you spend the extra time to try and pin the opponent(s), it becomes much more difficult for them to evade the tank, and you now get an attack roll.

You are quite right you can get around it with quick wits but, say, Villain (I am the master of original names) decides to puch over a building in into a crowded street. He is strong enough to do it in one go, but unless he takes two phases, none of the debris hits anyone?

OK, I don't really need an answer to that one, I'm just pulling funny faces behind teacher's back.

[Dust Raven]

I'd say he paid points for the ability and did not take an extra time limitation so he should be able to grab incidental objects as a non-attack 1/2 phase action. However, he would still have to take 2 phases if he wanted to grab a character and throw them at another character or specific target.

Essentially correct... unless you consider a character an object of opportunity. I never would... unless it was an unconscious character, then he's free game. Anything that can dodge or otherwise resist is not considered an "object" let alone one of opportunity. Anything else easily picked up is fair game.

[Valerious]

I'd say he paid points for the ability and did not take an extra time limitation so he should be able to grab incidental objects as a non-attack 1/2 phase action. However, he would still have to take 2 phases if he wanted to grab a character and throw them at another character or specific target.
Essentially correct... unless you consider a character an object of opportunity. I never would... unless it was an unconscious character, then he's free game. Anything that can dodge or otherwise resist is not considered an "object" let alone one of opportunity. Anything else easily picked up is fair game.
That's pretty much exactly how I'd run it in my games.

[bigdamnhero]

That's the way I'd run it too. But then, I'm still not convinced that picking up an inanimate object needs to constitute an attack action, so what do I know. :) If you have to rip the lightpole out of the ground, sure. If the object weighs more than your casual STR, maybe. But as a default? I dunno.

[Hugh Neilson]

You are quite right you can get around it with quick wits but, say, Villain (I am the master of original names) decides to puch over a building in into a crowded street. He is strong enough to do it in one go, but unless he takes two phases, none of the debris hits anyone?

In a case like that, I'd be inclined to say that the building can't damage a "Character", but could damage "Scenery" and define those normals milling about as "Scenery". Much like we often assume one hit takes out a Mook, but play out full combat with real Characters.

[Dust Raven]

In a case like that, I'd be inclined to say that the building can't damage a "Character", but could damage "Scenery" and define those normals milling about as "Scenery". Much like we often assume one hit takes out a Mook, but play out full combat with real Characters.
That's one way of looking at it. However, in the case of the building, that's not really picking up and throwing an object. It's more like breaking an object and letting it fall on people.

[Hugh Neilson]

That's one way of looking at it. However, in the case of the building, that's not really picking up and throwing an object. It's more like breaking an object and letting it fall on people.

True - but would SpiderMan get crushed by falling masonry, or would it be an opportunity to show off his amazing agility?

In any case, since it's falling, it should fall at the speed established in the rules, so it may take a few segments to land. Not enough time for a Normal to get out of the way, but a SpiderMan probably gets a phase or two before the really high velocity masonry hits bottom.

[Dust Raven]

True - but would SpiderMan get crushed by falling masonry, or would it be an opportunity to show off his amazing agility?

In any case, since it's falling, it should fall at the speed established in the rules, so it may take a few segments to land. Not enough time for a Normal to get out of the way, but a SpiderMan probably gets a phase or two before the really high velocity masonry hits bottom.
That's the way I see it. If the villain smashing the building on Segment 3, and it would finish falling in Segment 5, Spiderman could backflip and cartwheel out of the area in Segment 4, while the normals who can't move 'til Segment 6 all get crushed by the debris.

Of course, any self respecting Spiderman would create a web-net to catch the debris instead of letting everybody get crushed while he escapes. :D

[zornwil]

Early on, we had a lot of grabbing of not just improvised objects but other characters and whacking opponents. We found this fun, and I encouraged it. The grab was a half phase, though. And the whack was a phase-ending attack. But I encouraged it in that I did NOT penalize (so long as there's plenty of excess STR) for having a bulky or awkward object. We did have some rules for additional damage depending a lot on the type of character or object being used as a club.

PS - actually, not entirely correct, there were CV penalties or bonuses depending on the object.

See http://realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/ch_bludgeoning.html

[nexus]

Early on, we had a lot of grabbing of not just improvised objects but other characters and whacking opponents. We found this fun, and I encouraged it. The grab was a half phase, though. And the whack was a phase-ending attack. But I encouraged it in that I did NOT penalize (so long as there's plenty of excess STR) for having a bulky or awkward object. We did have some rules for additional damage depending a lot on the type of character or object being used as a club.

PS - actually, not entirely correct, there were CV penalties or bonuses depending on the object.

See http://realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/ch_bludgeoning.html

Did grabbing another character count as phase ending attack?

[zornwil]

Did grabbing another character count as phase ending attack?
No, it was allowed to grab and whack in the same turn, the whack counted as the attack on both characters as that was the real point of the grab. Frequently people just let go of the character after that, too.

[nexus]

No, it was allowed to grab and whack in the same turn, the whack counted as the attack on both characters as that was the real point of the grab. Frequently people just let go of the character after that, too.

But if you just grabbed someone to restrain them it wasn an Attack action that ended your phase?

[Sean Waters]

If you grab character A and whack them into character B, presumably you damage both characters as if you had punched each?

Now Hero mechanics do not support being able to damage a grabbed character after the first phase of grabbing wihtout a seperate attack roll, daft as that might seem, so presumably you were, in effect, sweep attacking?

You see I don't like the idea that the system mechanics, or particular house rules, encourage a 'killer tactic' and this seems like one for many bricks: once you have a weaker character you can damage them every phase and someone else too.

I don't like it.

I want a rabbit.

[OddHat]

I posted the power list before, but:


SUPER AGENT PATRIOT!

Cost Powers END
46 Patriotic Powers!: Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾)

5u 1) Get Behind Your President!: Force Wall (16 PD/16 ED) (80 Active Points); OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾) 8

2u 2) President-a-rang!: Energy Blast 16d6 (80 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 ¼), OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [1 rc]

3u 3) On WIngs of Eagles: Flight 27", x8 Noncombat, Costs END Only To Activate (+¼) (80 Active Points); Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; Must Hold President Over Head; -1), OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾) 6

3u 4) Presidential Veto Power!: Hand-To-Hand Attack +10d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (75 Active Points); OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-½)

3u 5) Hold Him Mister President!: Entangle 8d6, 8 DEF (80 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 ¼), OIF Fragile (President of Opportunity; -¾) [1 rc]

[zornwil]

But if you just grabbed someone to restrain them it wasn an Attack action that ended your phase?
Honestly I can't recall how consistent we've been, I think it's been more logic and situation. Casual STR was certainly needed to be able to be flexible with it. I think in part this is because we really didn't have people engagnig in grabs in general just to hold others (I think because too often NPCs had too many nasty effects plus grabbing someone reduces DCV so much for the grabber).

[zornwil]

If you grab character A and whack them into character B, presumably you damage both characters as if you had punched each?

Now Hero mechanics do not support being able to damage a grabbed character after the first phase of grabbing wihtout a seperate attack roll, daft as that might seem, so presumably you were, in effect, sweep attacking?

You see I don't like the idea that the system mechanics, or particular house rules, encourage a 'killer tactic' and this seems like one for many bricks: once you have a weaker character you can damage them every phase and someone else too.

I don't like it.

I want a rabbit.
It worked for the kind of game we wanted and were playing. My NPCs are pretty tough, too, so it worked. Remember, the GM controls the dial - why should I care about a "killer tactic" when they're built to take it and the players don't abuse it?

That said, I'm not suggesting any rules changes, these were house rules to accomplish a particular play experience.

EDIT/PS - also, bear in mind, we are more heavily roleplaying than tactical combat gaming, the latter is important more for the "flair" and feel of tactics rather than concerning ourselves with wargame-level "balance" and tactical granularity.