Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

[schir1964]

A character's limbs are a SFX of the character's STR mechanic. At least for the Human Template.

Why then is Extra Limbs a separate Power and not simply SFX?

Have at it ya'll! (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[Trebuchet]

I think it reasonably can be either or even both. You'll just get more benefit from it if points are paid for it than if it's strictly sfx. It doesn't have to be built as Extra Limb. If a character has extra OCV because he can do surprise attacks with a tail, then that might be bought as extra Combat Levels or something.

[Thia Halmades]

What I thought was odd, personally, is that the cost is fixed no matter how many extra limbs you have - which to me says "perk" or "talent." Not "power." Especially considering it's often used to support an SFX, because HERO itself has no particular bonuses for "multiple limb attacks" - that's all covered under sweep.

IMO, this gets excised in 6th Ed to a Perk, OR, gets updated across the board to mean something. I can see where it could be used as part of a power, but again, that's more an SFX. You don't buy EB "fires from the hands, restrainable" and then negate it because the hero has six arms. We don't give extra bonuses for having them, either. So it's all... well, it just doesn't seem to stand up in the 'power' description.

I could almost concede that in many cases, it's a 0 cost SFX. HOWEVER. The flip side, as Treb pointed out, is if you have a tail. Extra STR, Only with Tail doesn't actually require "multiple limbs" be bought. You get a tail & have STR with it. The mechanics of combat just don't seem to account for it.

:think:

Or am I missing something?

[schir1964]

It doesn't have to be built as Extra Limb.
This is exactly why I question whether it needs to be a separate power. Most SFX that would include Extra Limbs will also have to purchase other powers to simulate the SFX, so Extra Limbs isn't really needed since it really doesn't add anything new/unique.

It is more Flavor than Substance from a mechanic point of view.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[Trebuchet]

This is exactly why I question whether it needs to be a separate power. Most SFX that would include Extra Limbs will also have to purchase other powers to simulate the SFX, so Extra Limbs isn't really needed since it really doesn't add anything new/unique.

It is more Flavor than Substance from a mechanic point of view.

Just My Humble OpinionI think Extra Limb is probably most often used to build animals with prehensile tails such as monkeys; or fantastic creatures such as dragons, manticores, and maybe a few dinosaurs with "weaponized" tails such as Ankylosaurs and Stegosaurs.

It may also be a useful build to represent surprise attacks when a victim forgets his opponent has a tail or extra arms or legs and isn't used to dealing with such things. And certainly it's useful for the likes of Grond, since most Grabs won't immobilize all his arms. So Extra Limbs for some characters makes sense. It's just that not every character with a tail (for example) requires Extra Limbs.

[Hugh Neilson]

To carry items over from the prior thread:

- Extra Limbs permits a character with two limbs grabbed to still have a manipulatory limb free.

- Extra Limbs permits a character to Grab without a -5 penalty to STR while still having a manipulatory limb free to Strike or to perfrom some other action.

Not a huge mechanical benefit, but it IS a 5 point power.

Thia, I would suggest this is a Power rather than a Talent because it's not built from an existing power or skill. Life Support - Breathe Water, to cite one example, also has a fixed cost, and is a power.


STR purchased as a power (SFX: Extra Limbs) allows just as much manipulation as your normal two limbs. Agree or Disagree?

Buying more STR adds to your STR. It does not give you extra limbs with which to exercise that STR. Defender purschases Extra STR as a power - he has no extra limbs.


Telekinesis (SFX: Extra Limbs) allows just as much manipulation as your normal two limbs. Agree or Disagree?

Telekinesis is a separate power purchased separate and apart from STR which has both range and indirect aspects. Extra Limbs use the character's normal STR, have no range and lack any Indirect aspect. Building the latter with the former seems very kludgy to me.

You could certainly eliminate Extra Limbs and make it SFX. You could eliminate Water Breathing and make that SFX as well - it does very little, costs very little and is a logical power for anyone whose background includes an aquatic nature. However, it provides an advantage (if only a slight one), it is not readily simulated by any other mechanics and it is therefore its own power. Extra Limbs falls into the same box, in my opinion.

Christopher, let's assume we eliminated Extra Limbs as a power. How would you then build an alien gambler with a hidden prehensile third limb which he uses to cheat at cards (Lando Mollari from Babylon 5 demonstrated this once)?

[Bloodstone]

The thing that annoys me about extra limbs is that it's got some penalties built into it.

If you have two arms, you need to use both of them to get your full STR for the purpose of Lifting or Grab.

If you have four arms (like Grond) you still need to use all of them to get your full STR for Lifting, but so long as you use at least two of them you get your full STR for Grab.

But what if you have prehensile feat (like Beast) and/or a prehensile tail (like Nightcrawler)?

Well, technically since they are prehensile they are considered "manipulatory limbs" now and you have to use all of them to get your full STR while Lifting (and let me tell you, that creates some weird visuals). You still only need to use two of them to get your full STR on a Grab though (a literalist interpretation of this rule could get silly).

Of course, someone with only two limbs can probably only Lift or Grab two things at most, where as the character with four arms has literally twice as many options. So you have the opportunity to do stuff, even if it's potentially at reduced effectiveness. Extra limbs also have lots of additional uses outside of combat, but many of those are SFX only or will carry additional penalties for dividing up your concentration (this varies from game to game of course).

[schir1964]

Buying more STR adds to your STR. It does not give you extra limbs with which to exercise that STR. Defender purschases Extra STR as a power - he has no extra limbs.
Hugh, with responses like these, all it is doing is convincing me that I'm right.

You are absolutely right, more STR (Mechanic) increases STR, Lift, END, and so forth.

Now why does the character have more STR?
SFX Possiblities: Bigger Muscles, Denser Muscles, Magic, Increased Number Of Limbs...

If a GM allows players to increase thier STR without a SFX rationale to support it, not my problem. Not that you do this. Your statement really wasn't addressing what I said.

I said the rules associated SFX Limbs (as one rationale) with STR (Mechanic), and therefore additional limbs (SFX) should be just another rationale for having increased STR (Mechanic).


Telekinesis is a separate power purchased separate and apart from STR which has both range and indirect aspects. Extra Limbs use the character's normal STR, have no range and lack any Indirect aspect. Building the latter with the former seems very kludgy to me.
Please make sure you are responding the context. I gave Telekinesis as an example of a Mechanic that allows for Manipulation just like normal Limbs do. That's all. And I already discounted it as being more difficult to use than STR.

So I don't know what your point is.


You could certainly eliminate Extra Limbs and make it SFX.
Thank you, and it would not really impact the mechanics in any significant way. In my opinion.


You could eliminate Water Breathing and make that SFX as well - it does very little, costs very little and is a logical power for anyone whose background includes an aquatic nature.
Your rationale and comparison is lacking here I think.
Without Water Breathing (Life Support Mechanic), the rules for Drowning (Mechanic) come into play, and the character dies. Significant impact on the mechanics and therefore the character. However, in support of the concept, if the campaign takes place on a desert planet with not enough water to drown someone in any one place, then yes, Life Support (Water Breathing), is worth nothing and might as well be Flavor SFX.


However, it provides an advantage (if only a slight one), it is not readily simulated by any other mechanics and it is therefore its own power.
Disagree, it has great impact on the mechanics. What type of campaign the GM has will dictate the actual cost though.


Extra Limbs falls into the same box, in my opinion.
Disagree, see the differences I expounded upon above.


Christopher, let's assume we eliminated Extra Limbs as a power. How would you then build an alien gambler with a hidden prehensile third limb which he uses to cheat at cards (Lando Mollari from Babylon 5 demonstrated this once)?
Skill. Simple. You don't need an extra limb to do this, but the extra limb would be an excellent SFX rationale for extra levels/bonus to the skill. Just like any other SFX that has minor benefits/drawbacks.

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

If the character gets a benefit from it that other characters do not get then they need to pay for the effect they intend to bring into play. On the other hand, it doesn't specifically have to be bought as a power. That decision should be dependent on how it will be used. Personally, however, I'm for simple, rational applications. If you want to grab someone with two hands and pound them with the other two (grond style), or want to have a prehensile tail (ala nightcrawler), then you should purchase the power "extra limbs." True, you could buy the arms as a no range entangle, or the tail as a no range TK, but its simpler and more accurate not to, IMO. On the other hand, if you have extra legs that only make you faster, you should buy more running; if you have extra arms, but they only make you stronger and won't be used to do "arm stuff," then you should buy more strength; and if the only thing you do with your tail is make flourishes to distract opponents, or rub ladies; legs with it, then you should buy an OCV bonus or levels with seduction. The key questions are: 1) is this the simplest, most rationale way to build the power, and 2) how will the "extra limbs" be used during play - as limbs or as an effect?

[Thia Halmades]

*ponders*

I stand behind what I said earlier - I actually agree with Christopher on this; looking at it straight up, I don't see the advantage provided by Extra Limbs (as I said earlier).

Now let's say your entire race is quad-armed; all of their technology is built using similar conventions to our own - which means that their weapons require TWO RIGHT ARMS or two left arms, or all four limbs, to operate. Whether because they limited manipulation, or that's just how it was designed (ethno-centric design; they have four limbs, they tend to use four limbs).

Their mcha designs and all of their cockpits use the same mechanics - they can operate four panels at once (we can only handle two - no matter how fast we are, we've only got two arms) and this would create a mechanical problem for a non-quad pilot.

The mechanics are now in play, but it's driven by an SFX. I wouldn't see a need to force the racial package to purchase the 'extra limbs' - since as was mentioned, they have to use all four limbs to get their full strength, then it really becomes flavor text (and exciting for the PCs to discover something new) while encountering this race and their technology.

So I'm a) standing by what I said and b) in accord with Chris. The mechanic alone doesn't really forward the game in any significant way.

[Vondy]

If the character gets a benefit from it that other characters do not get then they need to pay for the effect they intend to bring into play. On the other hand, it doesn't specifically have to be bought as a power. That decision should be dependent on how it will be used. Personally, however, I'm for simple, rational applications. If you want to grab someone with two hands and pound them with the other two (grond style), or want to have a prehensile tail (ala nightcrawler), then you should purchase the power "extra limbs." True, you could buy the arms as a no range entangle, or the tail as a no range TK, but its simpler and more accurate not to, IMO. On the other hand, if you have extra legs that only make you faster, you should buy more running; if you have extra arms, but they only make you stronger and won't be used to do "arm stuff," then you should buy more strength; and if the only thing you do with your tail is make flourishes to distract opponents, or rub ladies; legs with it, then you should buy an OCV bonus or levels with seduction. The key questions are: 1) is this the simplest, most rationale way to build the power, and 2) how will the "extra limbs" be used during play - as limbs or as an effect?

Also, I have a small reservation in the back of my mind in terms of just purchasing extra strength for a character and then calling the SFX "extra limbs" without also buying extra limbs: there will come a point when the player wants to use his extra limbs as extra limbs and not just as an explanation for his increased strength. As a result I feel, in such a circumstance, that the character should pay for both. On the other hand, a centaur need not pay for extra-limbs because he has four legs. He should just purchase extra running and, if appropose, a reduced pen KA to represent his hooves/kick/whatever.

[Vondy]

*ponders*

I stand behind what I said earlier - I actually agree with Christopher on this; looking at it straight up, I don't see the advantage provided by Extra Limbs (as I said earlier).

Now let's say your entire race is quad-armed; all of their technology is built using similar conventions to our own - which means that their weapons require TWO RIGHT ARMS or two left arms, or all four limbs, to operate. Whether because they limited manipulation, or that's just how it was designed (ethno-centric design; they have four limbs, they tend to use four limbs).

Their mcha designs and all of their cockpits use the same mechanics - they can operate four panels at once (we can only handle two - no matter how fast we are, we've only got two arms) and this would create a mechanical problem for a non-quad pilot.

The mechanics are now in play, but it's driven by an SFX. I wouldn't see a need to force the racial package to purchase the 'extra limbs' - since as was mentioned, they have to use all four limbs to get their full strength, then it really becomes flavor text (and exciting for the PCs to discover something new) while encountering this race and their technology.

So I'm a) standing by what I said and b) in accord with Chris. The mechanic alone doesn't really forward the game in any significant way.

If the game revolves around this one four-armed race (they are the base template) and other races won't be coming into play, or won't be played, then I agree with you. And, in such a game, characters without four arms can take a Phys Lim to represent their lack. However, if it is one race of many, and other races do not have the advantages extra arms can provide, then I disagree - then the extra arms should be paid four because they do provide an advantage beyond the "two armed" base template. In summation, if the base template for the game is "two arms" then you should pay for four; if the base template is "four arms," then certainly not.

[Hugh Neilson]

The thing that annoys me about extra limbs is that it's got some penalties built into it.

If you have two arms, you need to use both of them to get your full STR for the purpose of Lifting or Grab.

Where is this rule about using all limbs (rather than all default limbs) to get a full lift?

There's a fallacy inherent in this that twice as many arms should mean twice as much can be lifted. Having extra arms doesn't enhance the character's leg or back strength. I don't believe Grond can lift more with his four arms than he could with two. However, he can lift STR 90's lift capacity with two arms and still punch out Obsidian with the other two arms.


Of course, someone with only two limbs can probably only Lift or Grab two things at most, where as the character with four arms has literally twice as many options. So you have the opportunity to do stuff, even if it's potentially at reduced effectiveness. Extra limbs also have lots of additional uses outside of combat, but many of those are SFX only or will carry additional penalties for dividing up your concentration (this varies from game to game of course).

The extra limbs allow you to hold four separate objects, one in each hand. However, as you say, there's an issue of divided concentration, and the character should not be able to perform complex tasks with Extra Limbs alone. Thus, Extra Limbs allows you to use two limbs to hold an object, and another two to adjust delicate machinery to examine that object. It doesn't allow you to adjust that machinery with a couple of limbs while typing correspondence with a second set and tuning a piano with the third set as each task requires concentration. With some exra skills, you could do all three at once, but the extra limbs only provide the necessary hardware.

[Bloodstone]

Where is this rule about using all limbs (rather than all default limbs) to get a full lift?

5ER, p34, second paragraph, last line. Or Ultimate Brick, p9 in the "Lifting Modifiers" section.

And this is not a new rule, as it's also on p20 of FRED.


There's a fallacy inherent in this that twice as many arms should mean twice as much can be lifted.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Merely that having extra limbs may actually be disadvantageous for lifting in some instances and I do not think it should be.


I don't believe Grond can lift more with his four arms than he could with two.

The rules I cited say he can. Specifically, he can lift 85 STR with one or two arms or 90 with 3 or 4.



However, he can lift STR 90's lift capacity with two arms and still punch out Obsidian with the other two arms.

Nope, he can only lift 85 STR worth. He gets his full 90 STR for punching Obsidian still though.

[Thia Halmades]

VDM: Sure, I see what you're saying, but what I was promoting (primarily) is that it isn't a POWER, it's a perk or a talent. I did say in my last post that I didn't see the point in making them pay for their extra two limbs, seeing as other than making their technology unusable by people who don't have them is almost a (limitation? advantage?) on the gear (Requires bilateral limbs to operate).

Of course I would generally assume that the base template is dual armed (as we are). In that instance I see what you're saying. The argument focuses on providing balance, sure. The disconnect for me is that those five points don't seem to mean a whole lot - maybe that's just my interpretation, but in my original post (which is closer to my intent) I don't see them as qualifying as a power, especially considering I can have 1,000 feet for 5 points. So what, when I get hamstringed in one limb I'm entirely crippled, despite that I have 999 replacements?

Whirr whirr whirr.

[Hugh Neilson]

5ER, p34, second paragraph, last line. Or Ultimate Brick, p9 in the "Lifting Modifiers" section.
************************************************** ********
I'm not suggesting that at all. Merely that having extra limbs may actually be disadvantageous for lifting in some instances and I do not think it should be.

I agree this should not be disadvantageous, so I would simply take the position that a character with extra limbs can lift his normal full lift with 2 hands, but cannot significantly enhance the total he can lift by using the others. I would aso simply rule that 1 hand = -5 STR for lift - you sell back an arm, you lose 5 STR from your maximum lift.

Thinking on it, I really dislike the idea of a character who pays for 2 extra limbs, then loses them to Impairing/Disabling wounds, being less effectie than a character who paid no points for Extra Limbs. They both have the 2 arms they started out with.


Nope, he can only lift 85 STR worth. He gets his full 90 STR for punching Obsidian still though.

In fairness, a punch is generally one handed to begin with. An all-out two handed blow might best be envisioned as a haymaker.

[Sean Waters]

Christopher: simple question -

You have a character that wants to be able to grab and hold six other people using his normal strength.

What enables you to do that in Hero?

[Sean Waters]

Right, strength: Hero is confused (or those that play it are) about strenth.

To apply your maximum strenth you need to use everything.

Cool.

To apply enough strength to hold something you need to be able to use 2 limbs.

If you have Extra Limbs (100) then THEORETICALLY you can grab and hold 50 other characters even though you are not applying your full strenth to each.

It may be that 'Extra Limbs' is not the place to look for the problem.

OR you can just assume that any two limbs can apply your full strenght but if you apply more than your full strength (i.e. use more than two limbs) then your back gives out.

More likely the rules were written for the human template and the 'extra limbs' power modifies the template.

OR you could assume that you reduce strength according to the following table: note that 'extra limbs' is NEVER a disadvantage - it just gves you more options:

Number of limbs........Reduction in strength for single limb
4.............................................-5
5-8.........................................-10
9-16.......................................-15
17-32.....................................-20
33-64.....................................-25
65-100...................................-30

AND you can use twice as many limbs for +5 strength: it should work out. Of course if a normal 4 limb (or 5 limb, but let us not be silly) character can apply ALL four limbs at once, they get +5 STR.

Cool.

[zornwil]

To carry items over from the prior thread:

- Extra Limbs permits a character with two limbs grabbed to still have a manipulatory limb free.

- Extra Limbs permits a character to Grab without a -5 penalty to STR while still having a manipulatory limb free to Strike or to perfrom some other action.

Not a huge mechanical benefit, but it IS a 5 point power.

Thia, I would suggest this is a Power rather than a Talent because it's not built from an existing power or skill. Life Support - Breathe Water, to cite one example, also has a fixed cost, and is a power.



Buying more STR adds to your STR. It does not give you extra limbs with which to exercise that STR. Defender purschases Extra STR as a power - he has no extra limbs.



Telekinesis is a separate power purchased separate and apart from STR which has both range and indirect aspects. Extra Limbs use the character's normal STR, have no range and lack any Indirect aspect. Building the latter with the former seems very kludgy to me.

You could certainly eliminate Extra Limbs and make it SFX. You could eliminate Water Breathing and make that SFX as well - it does very little, costs very little and is a logical power for anyone whose background includes an aquatic nature. However, it provides an advantage (if only a slight one), it is not readily simulated by any other mechanics and it is therefore its own power. Extra Limbs falls into the same box, in my opinion.

Christopher, let's assume we eliminated Extra Limbs as a power. How would you then build an alien gambler with a hidden prehensile third limb which he uses to cheat at cards (Lando Mollari from Babylon 5 demonstrated this once)?
Why does this need to be any different from the 90 foot character who doesn't want to pay anything or take a Disad? Or, conversely, why should the 90 foot character be allowed to do that? That's the issue I have here.

Your Gambler sounds like Skill Levels for Gambling, with perhaps a conditional limitation of some sort.

The problem with EL as a power is that it's so grandly SFX-based. The real power, as I understand it, from your own posts is "Fine Manipulation While 2 Limbs are Engaged." Since that seems to be the only ability granted. It is quite awkward, in that we don't really have rules to begin with for when 1 limb is "extra" and can do stuff - we just use common sense.

That stated, the giant or the shrunken character comes with many abilities, as does the EL character. It's not clear why one has to pay "just" for having ELs while the giant/shrunken does not. Shouldn't the EL character really pay for "Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged" or the like? Which makes more mechanical sense.

[zornwil]

Christopher: simple question -

You have a character that wants to be able to grab and hold six other people using his normal strength.

What enables you to do that in Hero?
Area Effect STR.

Extra Limbs has "no direct effect on combat."

Although the same sentence in parentheses says "yes, it does" basically in that it indicates you can punch and grab...

So who knows?

[Sean Waters]

Area Effect STR.

Extra Limbs has "no direct effect on combat."

Although the same sentence in parentheses says "yes, it does" basically in that it indicates you can punch and grab...

So who knows?

:) Yes, I suppose that AoE Strength would do the trick, if you make it non-selective and so on and so forth.

What would that cost the average character though?

[schir1964]

Christopher: simple question -

You have a character that wants to be able to grab and hold six other people using his normal strength.

What enables you to do that in Hero?
I'm glad you asked!! (8^D)

Limited Area Effect. Done.

Addendum: Drat!! Zornwil beat me to it. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Why does this need to be any different from the 90 foot character who doesn't want to pay anything or take a Disad? Or, conversely, why should the 90 foot character be allowed to do that? That's the issue I have here.

Your Gambler sounds like Skill Levels for Gambling, with perhaps a conditional limitation of some sort.

The problem with EL as a power is that it's so grandly SFX-based. The real power, as I understand it, from your own posts is "Fine Manipulation While 2 Limbs are Engaged." Since that seems to be the only ability granted. It is quite awkward, in that we don't really have rules to begin with for when 1 limb is "extra" and can do stuff - we just use common sense.

That stated, the giant or the shrunken character comes with many abilities, as does the EL character. It's not clear why one has to pay "just" for having ELs while the giant/shrunken does not. Shouldn't the EL character really pay for "Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged" or the like? Which makes more mechanical sense.
Well, I can't rep you again so soon, so I guess this will have to do. (8^D)
You've touched on some the points I was trying to get across, but much better than I have done.

- Christopher Mullins

[LoresLost]

Looking at this topic, I have an image from the trailer for the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy movie where the human female (whos name I forgot) trys to restrane Zaphod from activating the Heart of Gold by grabing his arms,. This fails because she does not grab his third arm. Is this ability, being harder to restrain, worth 5 points.

I see both arguments here, just as a larger then normal character built with the size templates have to pay for their longer reach and hex wide sweeps, you are asking a character to pay for their enhanced ablities due to their extra limb/s.
Paying for the extra limb would be considered a penalty for a releated group of ablities.

But is this five point ablity just the cost of being harder to restrain the limbs of the character is my other thought (a minor adder for natural limbs, harder then normal to restrain).

Looking at the extra limbs as an adder for being harder to restrain actually makes sense to me, the more I think of it.

[Sean Waters]

I'm glad you asked!! (8^D)

Limited Area Effect. Done.

Addendum: Drat!! Zornwil beat me to it. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

The I'll ask you the same thing I asked him: how much is that going to cost your brick?

[Sean Waters]

Looking at this topic, I have an image from the trailer for the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy movie where the human female (whos name I forgot) trys to restrane Zaphod from activating the Heart of Gold by grabing his arms,. This fails because she does not grab his third arm. Is this ability, being harder to restrain, worth 5 points.

I see both arguments here, just as a larger then normal character built with the size templates have to pay for their longer reach and hex wide sweeps, you are asking a character to pay for their enhanced ablities due to their extra limb/s.
Paying for the extra limb would be considered a penalty for a releated group of ablities.

But is this five point ablity just the cost of being harder to restrain the limbs of the character is my other thought (a minor adder for natural limbs, harder then normal to restrain).

Looking at the extra limbs as an adder for being harder to restrain actually makes sense to me, the more I think of it.

Tricia McMillan or Trillian.

Now regarding the extra limbs: it can do a lot, potentially.

Grabbing more than someone with fewer limbbs can

Helping you cheat at cards

A suprise move in combat

Making you harder to restrain.

The lsit goes on.

Now even if you could do all of that in other ways (and let us assume for the sake of argument that you can) you would have to think it out ahead of time and spend a lot on what is really a minor ability.

Extra Limbs: 5 points is so much more elegant. You know it makes sense.

[schir1964]

The I'll ask you the same thing I asked him: how much is that going to cost your brick?
How many limbs do you want?

1-2 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality): +1/4 Area Effect
3-8 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1/2 Area Effect
9-16 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +3/4 Area Effect
17-32 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 Area Effect
33-64 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/4 Area Effect
65-128 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/2 Area Effect
129-256 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 3/4 Area Effect
257-512 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +2 Area Effect

This is just a guess. Feel free to change any numbers or values to suit your needs.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Now regarding the extra limbs: it can do a lot, potentially.

Grabbing more than someone with fewer limbbs can

Helping you cheat at cards

A suprise move in combat

Making you harder to restrain.

The lsit goes on.
Restrictions...

Attacking (Grabbing) more than someone with fewer limbs can: Requires Area Effect

Gains a penalty to cheating at card due to restricted movement of joints

Suprise move benefits are determine by GM per the rules so it's a wash based on situation.

Restrainable is SFX based and is affected by Size (Growth/Shrinking), Substance (Desolid, Shapeshifting), Agility (Skill), and possibly Additional Limbs (Extra Limbs) depending on the goal... if the goal is restraining each limb, then yes, if goal is restraining individual, then no.

So many of things you bring up are SFX based and will have negatives and positives depending on the situation. GM controlled so I don't see it as a mechanic for more Flavor for the characters actions.

I do want to point out that everyone continues to bring up the Grabbing more than one target aspect. This benefit is not supported by the rules as people have been describing it. You don't get to grab 6 six targets in a single action, that requires a sweep manuever or Area Effect applied to STR. You may be able to grab a target one phase then on the next phase grab another target and so forth, just like Telekinesis does and normal STR with two limbs for two targets. Just a clarification on what the current mechanics allow you do.


Now even if you could do all of that in other ways (and let us assume for the sake of argument that you can) you would have to think it out ahead of time and spend a lot on what is really a minor ability.
Thank you. That's my point. Extra Limbs, by itself, only allows you do something that is minor and well within the realm of SFX. Anything more major that has been listed is already covered by existing mechanics. So Extra Limbs is orphaned as far as mechanics go. In my opinion.


Extra Limbs: 5 points is so much more elegant. You know it makes sense.
Simpler to purchase, definately. More elegant? I don't think so. Not with all the mechanic restrictions applied to it and its application as others have already described. (8^D)

Rules that are inconsistent with the rest of the rules do not make sense.
Therefore, Extra Limbs falls into that category. (8^D)

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Christopher: simple question -

You have a character that wants to be able to grab and hold six other people using his normal strength.

What enables you to do that in Hero?

Sweep? :eg:

[zornwil]

:) Yes, I suppose that AoE Strength would do the trick, if you make it non-selective and so on and so forth.

What would that cost the average character though?
To invert the question, why get it for 5 points' effect?

[zornwil]

Well, I can't rep you again so soon, so I guess this will have to do. (8^D)
You've touched on some the points I was trying to get across, but much better than I have done.

- Christopher Mullins
Thanks...shoulders of giants and all that. :)

[PhilFleischmann]

Area Effect, eh? Well, it would really only be AE: One Hex, Selective, for +3/4, which then increases the END cost of your STR 75% even if you're only using it on one person/thing, at a time. And of course, it means you can do an unlimited number of things in your hex at the same time, regardless of how many limbs you have. This isn't quite what EL should be.

If you buy full AE, Selective for +1.25, your limbs magically get longer in proportion to your STR. 60 STR = +5 Hexes of reach. This isn't what we want Extra Limbs to do.

One of the first Champions characters I ever created had Extra Limbs (8 arms, prehensile tail, [plus two non-prehensile wings which don't really count as extra limbs]). Those limbs came in very handy in an early adventure where we had to rescue some people from a burning building. I was able to carry them down four at a time.

[Hugh Neilson]

How many limbs do you want?

1-2 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality): +1/4 Area Effect
3-8 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1/2 Area Effect
9-16 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +3/4 Area Effect
17-32 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 Area Effect
33-64 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/4 Area Effect
65-128 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/2 Area Effect
129-256 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 3/4 Area Effect
257-512 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +2 Area Effect

So a 60 STR character should, in your view, pay 120 points to be able to Grab one target at a time, in HTH range, with normal rolls to hit, and hold onto an unlimited number of previously grabbed targets.

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.

How can we disagree with someone who has clearly thought this through so thoroughly and completely...

BTW, you were arguing the existing mechanics were adequate for anything Extra Limbs could do. How is your suggestion above an existing mechanic?


Restrictions...

Attacking (Grabbing) more than someone with fewer limbs can: Requires Area Effect

This does not simulate the ability to grab a second target while holding on to the first. It simulates the ability to strike at multiple targets simultaneously, possibly some a considerable distance away, by hitting a hex.


Restrainable is SFX based and is affected by Size (Growth/Shrinking), Substance (Desolid, Shapeshifting), Agility (Skill), and possibly Additional Limbs (Extra Limbs) depending on the goal... if the goal is restraining each limb, then yes, if goal is restraining individual, then no.

So without using Extra Limbs, please construct a clean mechanical construct for the ability to make it harder to restrain all the character's limbs without making restraining the character from moving any more difficult. You keep saying the existing mechanics readily handle this, but you're not providing any nice simple builds to back up your claims.


I do want to point out that everyone continues to bring up the Grabbing more than one target aspect. This benefit is not supported by the rules as people have been describing it. You don't get to grab 6 six targets in a single action, that requires a sweep manuever or Area Effect applied to STR. You may be able to grab a target one phase then on the next phase grab another target and so forth, just like Telekinesis does and normal STR with two limbs for two targets. Just a clarification on what the current mechanics allow you do.

You DO have the ability to hold on to one character while Grabbing a second. Show me the other mechanic that permits this, without permitting the Grabbing of multiple targets as a single action as AoE would do.


Area Effect, eh? Well, it would really only be AE: One Hex, Selective, for +3/4, which then increases the END cost of your STR 75% even if you're only using it on one person/thing, at a time. And of course, it means you can do an unlimited number of things in your hex at the same time, regardless of how many limbs you have. This isn't quite what EL should be.

Well, it should probably be more than one hex since I can grab targets in more than one adjacent hex, which is tougher to buy than 1 hex Selective. I guess it's Any Area, but even then if you have too many hexes, based on STR, it makes no sense, just like:


If you buy full AE, Selective for +1.25, your limbs magically get longer in proportion to your STR. 60 STR = +5 Hexes of reach. This isn't what we want Extra Limbs to do.

Exactly! But Christopher is going to show us the quick and clean mechanic under the existing rules that can accomplish this - we just have to wait for his next post!

[TheRavenIs]

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb, for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.

Now that is my answer, and it's how I like to use the power.

[zornwil]

I don't doubt a level of utility with EL, but the issue is that compared to the "state of being" argument on growth and shrinking, the issue is really clouded. Especially considering one extra limb is of no more value than having 20 of those. There is "no direct effect on combat" but the character can of course otherwise do the things a person with multiple limbs could do (though you have to pay points if it overlaps to any mechanics except for, I guess, holding or manipulating stuff).

To me, if this is one's natural state, in most campaigns it's going to come with issues to the same degree as shrunken or giant abilities will (and with those, players typically will go ahead and take on the Disads without necessarily paying for some of the niceties).

If it's not a natural state, it does have the ability to give some sort of extra ability, but it's much as a Perk or Talent basically, and rather fudgy, still, in mechanical effect.

I'm not sure what's hard though about defining a mechanical equivalent to having your arms free, TK goes a long way. That being said, the cost is at least somewhat higher (depending on how much you allow Limitations to apply). But Extra Limbs are a game-layer reponse to a game-level problem as to general suspected real utility. They're a convenience along the same lines as the removed Regeneration, but with less certitude as to applicability and how they interact. I could just as well declare a CE "does stuff with extra limbs" and have no combat effect, except it's not clear whether it's "fair" for me to have the ability.

The interaction of Extra Limbs with Stretching gets really interesting for a mere 5 point Adder (effectively) as well.

All that said, just because the answer is "this is a game layer rule" doesn't mean it's good or bad. Ultimately, though, it does seem a codification of a limited SFX that could be handled a number of ways including long-hand power constructs that might be suitably heavily Limted or simply created as Perks. It serves as a sort of general guide to the reader that EL isn't a game-breaker so long as you buy what you want mechanically out of it "mostly" with a power.

[casualplayer]

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb, for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.

Now that is my answer, and it's how I like to use the power.

Aha! I thought that's how Extra Limbs used to work.

Default template in HERO right now is STR 1 hex AE: Selective No Range with some disadvantages that float between the -0 and -1/4 range (Fine work with only specified two limbs, may only Grab with two specified limbs, -5 STR unless Grab is performed with 2+ limbs, Only one strike/phase, etc.) Maybe we need to acknowledge the implied modifiers already incorporated into STR and work from there to emulate extra limbs.

[schir1964]

So...
I'm not bothering to answer any of your specific arguments because you took my post out of context. The cost argument is meaningless since I said it was a guess and if you don't like it, change it.

I was attempting to give Sean and answer to a specific question about how to use Area Effect to be consistent with other Attacks. And wasn't a complete answer at that. I gave the base values of the advantage without any of the imposed limitations for SFX, such as No Range, One Attack Per Limb, etc...

I already posted how I would do it in my games...

I would have them buy STR as a separate power with SFX of Additional Limbs.


But Christopher is going to show us the quick and clean mechanic under the existing rules that can accomplish this - we just have to wait for his next post!
I don't think I ever said it would be clean or quick. I've said existing and consistent. I have said it would be no more difficult than the existing mechanics.

Sorry Hugh, but you've failed to convince me that Extra Limbs is worthy of being a mechanic instead of simply a SFX. But I'll certainly evaluate anything else you think I've overlooked.

Don't misunderstand the purpose of this thread. It's to allow others to kick around their opinions and in case I overlooked something that would convince me that Extra Limbs is worthy of being a separate mechanic. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change thier mind about Extra Limbs. Its an opportunity for others to change my mind. So far I haven't seen any compelling reason to have Extra Limbs as a separate mechanic.

Premise: An Extra Limb should have all the default abilities that a normal limb has in the game mechanically. Then if it is different, the mechanics need to be modified from there. Extra Limbs doesn't do this, but it should if it were to be qualified to be on the same level as Growth and Shrinking.

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

How can we disagree with someone who has clearly thought this through so thoroughly and completely...


Personally, you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.

[schir1964]

To me, if this is one's natural state, in most campaigns it's going to come with issues to the same degree as shrunken or giant abilities will (and with those, players typically will go ahead and take on the Disads without necessarily paying for some of the niceties).
When I started think about Growth and Shrinking in comparison, I realized they also are tightly tied to SFX (Grows Big, Shrinks Down), but the mechanics themselves are basically a package deal of mechanics that are beneficial to those SFX. I presume to make such common SFX easier to handle with the mechanics. Like the Armor and Force Field thing where commonality is the driving force for having them separate. Of course with 5th Editions definition restrictions on Armor now, you can't turn Armor into Force Field that has esoteric defenses. But I'm meandering now... (8^D)


If it's not a natural state, it does have the ability to give some sort of extra ability, but it's much as a Perk or Talent basically, and rather fudgy, still, in mechanical effect.
Precisely. If the notion was that it was going to be like Growth or Shrinking, then Extra Limbs should mean "Extra Limbs" and bundle the mechanics together that Normal Limbs is associated with.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Personally, you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.
Right. I've been trying really hard to ignore them, and trying not to respond in kind which I can do quite easily at times.

Hugh normally beats me down with well thought out arguments and evidence, but has been unable to do so on this issue. Perhaps that is annoying him.

As for the 5 Point cost is worth all the little things that people have brought up, that's fine if they think it's worth that. But those things aren't what I would buy Extra Limbs (SFX) for. If I were to purchase a mechanic that is called Extra Limbs, and its description says it grants the character Extra Limbs (SFX), then I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.

It should be pointed out that your normal default set of limbs lets you do all that. The degree to which you can perform those tasks is still limited by other mechanical factors, like your STR and relevant Skills.

At best, having extra limbs ENABLES you to do more. That is what you are paying for. It does not inherently grant you any ability to do more however. You need additional mechanics for that.

Is this not fitting?

Nightcrawler uses his extra limb (tail) to hang from places, to climb, to balance and to wield a sword or perform various finesse based martial maneuvers like Footsweeps and Choke Holds.

The Scorpion uses his extra limb (tail) as a spring to increase his leaps or as a weapon (edged, blunt or ranged depending on era). He may also use it to hold onto large objects, throw things or grab an opponent.

The beast uses his extra limbs (feet) as a second set of hands. He uses them to climb, grab, write, type and drink coffee.

Dr Octopus uses his extra limbs (tentacles) in so many ways I do not have room to define even half of them.

In all cases, they have abilities that are derived from the SFX of having extra limbs. Those abilities are all quite dissimilar and thus no "package deal" price can be reached.

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.

[schir1964]

For Hugh. (8^D)

Prehensile Tail
Tail is strong enough to hold the weight of the character.
Tail has no manipulation (Fingers).
Tail may grab but effectively has no strength for lifting/combat.
Tail may not cause damage as far as combat.

Power: 10 STR (Prehensile Tail), No Manipulation -1/2, Zero STR Lift/Combat -2 [Active Points: 10 / Cost: 3 Points)

Four Arm Goru
Goru is strong and lift the weight of two men with a single set of limbs.
Second set is identical to first set.

Power:
15 STR (1st Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 5 Points)
15 STR (2nd Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 15 Points)
Max Lift: 400 Kilograms (4 Men)
Total Cost: 20 Points

Hundred Tentacle Monster (For Sean Specifically)
Monster has weak tentacles.
Monster has 3 inch reach in all directions.
Monster has no manipulation (fingers).
Monster can attack 100 targets simultaneously, but only 100 targets at most.

Power:
5 STR (Each Tentacle): Area Effect (1 Hex) Selective +3/4, No Manipulation -1/2, 100 Targets Maximum -1 [Active Points: 9 / Cost: 4 Points]
3" Stretching

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.
I agree with everything you've said up to the final sentence.

One of the "common mechanics" that most SFX have is STR. 10 STR allows you Lift 100 Kilograms, Grab targets, and inflict 2d6 Damage. These things are a bargain at 10 Points.

Here's another way that I look at this:
If I purchase 10 STR with the SFX (Two Extra Limbs), and I don't purchase Extra Limbs (Mechanic), what does Extra Limbs let me do that my STR won't?

Will the GM tell me I can't read the paper with two limbs, hold a cup of coffee, while pouring some sugar into the coffee? Just because I didn't purchase Extra Limbs?

What am I missing?

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

Will the GM tell me I can't read the paper with two limbs, hold a cup of coffee, while pouring some sugar into the coffee? Just because I didn't purchase Extra Limbs?

Non combat benefits like this will probably not be considered worth may (if any) points by most GM's or players. It's SFX after all.

But, the ability to have multiple limbs free during a grapple that immobilizes 2 limbs? Is that not a benefit that is worth points for? And if so, how would you do it without the power Extra Limbs? It's not an expression of having more STR, bonuses to Punch, Grab and Disarm or extra SPD...

[Sean Waters]

Sweep? :eg:

Only if you have extra limbs. See page 397 - a character can only sweep grab as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold them.

[Sean Waters]

Personally, you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.

Just to turn this whole thread into a bun-fight, I think that you are rather over egging the pudding with that comment. I didn't get the sense that Hugh was personally attacking Christopher to the extent that you suggest.

The problem with boards like this, certainly from my POV is that I often write as I talk, and then the comments are there to be seen without the context of the original inflection. Knowing both Hugh and Christopher through these boards over a long period I get the sense that there is no ill-will involved.

In fact I recently had cause to commend both Hugh and Robyn on another thread when they were having a long and involved argument without the 'heat' that sometimes develops in these things. There may well have been sarcasm involved at some point (or maybe several) in there but it was not taken to be nasty, and the discussion was, IMO, a model of a lengthy but good natured argument.

I thought it was important to balance the scales on this one, to an extent. Thank you.

[Sean Waters]

Christopher, your examples of multi-limb 'system' builds all rely on having low strength limbs. It simply does not work if you want, say, a Four Armed Grond: the cost would be 170 points, or the multi-tentacle monster, if it is much stronger than 5 STR, the cost would be astronomical.

The problem is that the system has not been built in an entirely logical way so, whilst it would be nice to do everything from basic principles, I don't think you can. I'm not sure that there really are any basic principles.

Now for 5 points you are not getting a lot of utility, but I can see some. The cost feels about right even if it does not scale. If I felt that extra limbs was more useful, I'd be worries, but it has nver been a problem for me, and I've never heard anyone complain that it is being abused.

On another point, even if it is SFX, I see no problem in principle with paying for useful SFX. There is certainly no obvious downside to extra limbs, so I don't think it meets the SFX criteria anyway, in the way that being particularly large or small would, or could (the fact that you will doubtless look distincitve will get you a disadvantage, so I would say that would not count. You may think otherwise)

[Hugh Neilson]

First off, to anyone offended by my comments previously, I apologize. And thanks for the defense, Sean.


As for the 5 Point cost is worth all the little things that people have brought up, that's fine if they think it's worth that. But those things aren't what I would buy Extra Limbs (SFX) for. If I were to purchase a mechanic that is called Extra Limbs, and its description says it grants the character Extra Limbs (SFX), then I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.

The extra limbs can punch. Nothing gives you the co-ordination to punch multiple people at the same time with no penalty. ASs a GM, however, I would likely allow a 2 armed character to Sweep Punch two targets (one with each fist). A four armed character should logically then be able to Sweep Punch four targets. Mechanical advantage.

However, do Extra Limbs actually do this in nature? Do octopi and squids really attack multiple targets with their multiple limbs? I've asked this before with no answer.

Similarly, the extra limbs can carry extra weapons, and add to the ability to Sweep. Or a four armed character could carry a two handed weapon and weild a shield. A two armed character could not.

Lift extra weight - you lift from your legs. How did two extra arms allow your legs better lift, or your back to support extra weight? The four arms may allow you to carry more where two hands could not have held enough objects to reach your full lifting capacity - how many teacups can you hold in two hands? Four can hold twice as many. Extra limbs could also assist in balancing unweildy objects, something we have limited or no mechanics for. However, I don't see how they would enhance the total you could lift without the STR of your body as a whole being enhanced.

I think a number of mechanics have been shown below. Christopher, your examples tend to end with a discalimer of cost basically saying "if you don't like the cost, modify it". Why not just modify the cost of Extra Limbs to match your perception of the value. I'll admit I'm unclear what you think the value is. You say initially it's just SFX, implying no cost. Then you produce a table of advantages from +1/4 to +2, and it looks like the latest structure says "buy your STR again for every two extra limbs desired". That's a pretty wide range of possible costs for a single mechanic.


At best, having extra limbs ENABLES you to do more. That is what you are paying for. It does not inherently grant you any ability to do more however. You need additional mechanics for that.

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.

BINGO - and great examples, by the way.


Only if you have extra limbs. See page 397 - a character can only sweep grab as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold them.

That would be a mechanical benefit of extra limbs, would it not?

[Hugh Neilson]

For Hugh.

Prehensile Tail
Tail is strong enough to hold the weight of the character.
Tail has no manipulation (Fingers).
Tail may grab but effectively has no strength for lifting/combat.
Tail may not cause damage as far as combat.

Power: 10 STR (Prehensile Tail), No Manipulation -1/2, Zero STR Lift/Combat -2 [Active Points: 10 / Cost: 3 Points)

Now I get it - you want the character to buy his STR AGAIN to be allowed to use it twice. This is a bit more powerful than an Extra Limb in some ways - for example, the character can MPA with a punch from his hands and a Grab with his tail, since they are two separate powers.

But is this more valuable than +10 STR, No Figured (-1/2 - why doesn't your 10 STR have No Figured, by the way), does not add to lift or damage (-2), only with Tail (free for SFX by your logic; -1/2 as Restrainable) for the same 3 points, and now he can Grab with 20 STR. Since he only Grabs with his tail, SFX should dictate his hands are still free, correct? Presumably, he can also hang from the chandalier with his tail and have both hands free from his SFX.


Four Arm Goru
Goru is strong and lift the weight of two men with a single set of limbs.
Second set is identical to first set.

Power:
15 STR (1st Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 5 Points)
15 STR (2nd Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 15 Points)
Max Lift: 400 Kilograms (4 Men)
Total Cost: 20 Points

Here we get into that illogic that Goru's extra arms somehow make his back and legs stronger so he can lift more. Does it make sense that, because he has four arms, Goru can wear heavy armor and be less encumbered?

Again, does that second 15 STR add to his figured characteristics? Overall, I'd say buying 15 STR again is a lot less powerful than buying +15 STR overall. This will be exacerbated if his STR is increased, and also if he has more sets of Extra Limbs. I'm assuming each set of 2 limbs (or one lonely limb) requires the STR be purchased separately again. Did you envision unlimited limbs for the single purchase? I expect not, since you would logically expect six arms to mean he can do things three times, compared to twice for a four armed character or once for a two armed character.

Already noted above, this means Grond pays 90 points for his two extra arms. Of course, he no longer needs that bonus Speed, since he can MPA with his two separately purchased sets of arms. On the other hand, Grond could probably now buy Duplication (like a Hydra) for comparable, or even less, points than his two extra arms will cost him under your system.


Hundred Tentacle Monster (For Sean Specifically)
Monster has weak tentacles.
Monster has 3 inch reach in all directions.
Monster has no manipulation (fingers).
Monster can attack 100 targets simultaneously, but only 100 targets at most.

Power:
5 STR (Each Tentacle): Area Effect (1 Hex) Selective +3/4, No Manipulation -1/2, 100 Targets Maximum -1 [Active Points: 9 / Cost: 4 Points]
3" Stretching

Seems very useless, frankly. He can attack 100 targets if they're all in the same hex - those must be very small targets, so he better have a great OCV.. He can't attack targets in two different hexes, since he only has a 1 hex area.

At what point does the STR go from "buy it again for each limb" to "area effect"? Grond would be much better off buying AoE 1 Hex Selective, four targets maximum (which, I assume, is a greater limitation than 100 targets) than buying an extra 90 STR for his bonus arms.

[Zeropoint]

I think that Extra Limbs is costed about right. It doesn't do much for a character, but it does do something.

A couple of examples to illustrate my thoughts: I have a character who's basically a humanoid lizard-girl, with a tail, bought as Extra Limb, Limited manipulation. She can use it to tail-slap someone in combat for a surpise move, or to hit someone behind her without turning around. She can use it to push or pull things while her hands are full. That's about it; not much utility, but then, she did'nt pay much for it.

In my fantasy world, I've got an insect race with four arms (NOT bought with limited manipulation). They can do things like wield a two-handed sword and a shield, or quad-wield one-handed weapons, or dual-wield bows . . . of course, they still only get one primary hand and can only make one full-OCV attack per round normally. But they could, for instance, use a sword and a shield AND carry a lantern at the same time.

I think the versatility of extra limbs is worth the five points, but not so useful that it should cost more.

[zornwil]

Non combat benefits like this will probably not be considered worth may (if any) points by most GM's or players. It's SFX after all.

But, the ability to have multiple limbs free during a grapple that immobilizes 2 limbs? Is that not a benefit that is worth points for? And if so, how would you do it without the power Extra Limbs? It's not an expression of having more STR, bonuses to Punch, Grab and Disarm or extra SPD...
I come back to the fact that you would have some vaguely similar benefits to being over-grown, which is considered a 0 point value if a natural state. I don't mean to be a broken record, but I can't quite clearly find the dividing line. I do grant some utility to multiple limbs, no doubt.

Maybe "non-restrainable" needs to be an Adder of 5 points to STR.

[Killer Shrike]

It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.


You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

Rook (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Rook.shtml)

[zornwil]

Christopher, your examples of multi-limb 'system' builds all rely on having low strength limbs. It simply does not work if you want, say, a Four Armed Grond: the cost would be 170 points, or the multi-tentacle monster, if it is much stronger than 5 STR, the cost would be astronomical.

The problem is that the system has not been built in an entirely logical way so, whilst it would be nice to do everything from basic principles, I don't think you can. I'm not sure that there really are any basic principles.

Now for 5 points you are not getting a lot of utility, but I can see some. The cost feels about right even if it does not scale. If I felt that extra limbs was more useful, I'd be worries, but it has nver been a problem for me, and I've never heard anyone complain that it is being abused.

On another point, even if it is SFX, I see no problem in principle with paying for useful SFX. There is certainly no obvious downside to extra limbs, so I don't think it meets the SFX criteria anyway, in the way that being particularly large or small would, or could (the fact that you will doubtless look distincitve will get you a disadvantage, so I would say that would not count. You may think otherwise)
I think Perks serve as among the best examples of paying for vague SFX, though Change Environment also works. I have seen a character that would otherwise have Extra Limbs just have CE and it worked great (their purpose was not combat-related here but more multi-purpose than the vagararies of the Extra Limb "mechanic").

[zornwil]

It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.


You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

Rook (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Rook.shtml)
Rook looks cool but perhaps because I am at work and not wholly concentrating, I"m missing what EL is giving him specifically, would you please elaborate?

[Killer Shrike]

Rook looks cool but perhaps because I am at work and not wholly concentrating, I"m missing what EL is giving him specifically, would you please elaborate?

It gives him the ability to use his base STR in conjunction w/ the extra STR he bought for his extra limbs, makes his grabs nasty, and lets him do anything a character with a nigh infinite number of limbs with 10" of stretching reasonably would be able to do. Pick stuff up, manipulate things at range, use manuevers, etc etc etc.

[zornwil]

Coupling capabilities with Extra Limbs does make for a more explicit build which gives the player control, good example. It also gets around, in a seemingly cost-reasonable way, area type issues. I have to run, will think about it. I do wonder if "non-restrainable" would be a better way though as a simple Adder to powers - much the same in general but a bit cleaner mechanically, as I think about it.

[Sean Waters]

On the question of restrainable, normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.

[SpydirShellX]

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.
[QUOTE]

How is this a viable construct? I thought Accurate could only be applied to one hex areas, not radius ones.

[QUOTE=Sean Watters;1202065]On the question of restrainable, normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.
Um... I don't thing normal strength is restrainable... you get to use it to break out of the restraints. Extra limbs would be restrainable if they couldn't manifest when the person was grabbed or tied up.

Question - exactly what effect DO extra arms have? ... most of the posts I been seeing mention grabbing both being able to grab more targets and prevent having all limbs grabbed.
I know that foci that require the use of hands use up one (or two).

As I understand things, extra arms mostly are cover by buying other powers. Presumably most effects can vary from limb to limb based on what effects you want.

The idea seems to be that certain effects are caused simply by having appendages and are universal accross all types of arms. Is there enough effect to cover those in the 5 points and what then should it include?

[PhilFleischmann]

Well, it should probably be more than one hex since I can grab targets in more than one adjacent hex, which is tougher to buy than 1 hex Selective. I guess it's Any Area, but even then if you have too many hexes, based on STR, it makes no sense, just like:
Good catch! In that case, it should be 1 Hex Area, Extended Area (the hex your in plus the surrounding six hexes), Selective. Now it's a +1 Advantage, doubling the END cost of your STR, and still allowing multiple grabs/punches/etc.

[PhilFleischmann]

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb, for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.
IIRC, that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.

[zornwil]

On the question of restrainable, normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.
But the issue is the desire is to be able to apply STR and so on non-restrained.

[zornwil]

IIRC, that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.
Yup, confirmed, I reviewed and 10 per limb with +1 OCV up through 3rd edition and in 4th it changed to any number of limbs.

[casualplayer]

IIRC, that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.

Aha! I thought that was how Extra Limbs used to work.

What? :D

I think Extra Limbs, as a separate power, needs to go the way of the dodo. Emulate whatever your character's additional limbs can do with the appropriate powers instead, whether it's a minor boost to Climbing or a whole MP of grenades and additional STR when using the bonus limb.

[Bloodstone]

I come back to the fact that you would have some vaguely similar benefits to being over-grown, which is considered a 0 point value if a natural state. I don't mean to be a broken record, but I can't quite clearly find the dividing line.

I can see where you are coming from, but it's kinda apples and oranges to me.

Being large MAY prevent you from being Grabed by a smaller foe, but it's ultimately GM's discretion land. Wonder Woman can has grappled with titans, in the literal sense. This despite the fact that their fingers are longer then she is tall...

[Lucius]

Now why does the character have more STR?
SFX Possiblities: Bigger Muscles, Denser Muscles, Magic, Increased Number Of Limbs...


- Christopher Mullins

You keep saying this about Extra Limbs equaling Extra STRength, and it’s been repeatedly pointed out that this makes no sense. If I grew an extra pair of arms tomorrow identical to the two I have today, unless my back and legs changed at the same time I wouldn’t be able to life any more. I’d be able to lift and carry more OBJECTS but the total MASS I could lift would remain the same.


Where is this rule about using all limbs (rather than all default limbs) to get a full lift?



Yeah, that’s what I wanted to know. Bloodstone told us.


5ER, p34, second paragraph, last line. Or Ultimate Brick, p9 in the "Lifting Modifiers" section.

And this is not a new rule, as it's also on p20 of FRED.



So that’s the answer – it’s another stupid idea that got into the book.

By this reasoning, if I buy “Extra Limbs – Unlimited Number” I can’t exert full lifting STR unless I’m using an infinite number of limbs. Any finite number is infinitely less than the infinite number of pseudopods I am theoretically capable of extruding, so the penalty would be 5 X infinity on STR unless I’m using infinite limbs. I guess the only good thing in THIS silliness is that I can say any given extruded tentacle is actually composed of an “unlimited number” of hair-fine threads….


Why does this need to be any different from the 90 foot character who doesn't want to pay anything or take a Disad? Or, conversely, why should the 90 foot character be allowed to do that? That's the issue I have here.
.

In my opinion, they shouldn’t.


That stated, the giant or the shrunken character comes with many abilities, as does the EL character. It's not clear why one has to pay "just" for having ELs while the giant/shrunken does not. Shouldn't the EL character really pay for "Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged" or the like? Which makes more mechanical sense.

Yep. But since “Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged” is such a long name, can we shorten it – maybe to something like “Extra Limbs?”


To invert the question, why get it for 5 points' effect?

‘cause you can’t have it both ways.

The thread started with Schirr’s contention that Extra Limbs isn’t worth EVEN 5 pts. To argue that it should be worth more than that certainly does not advance the case that it’s worth less.


I don't doubt a level of utility with EL, but the issue is that compared to the "state of being" argument on growth and shrinking, the issue is really clouded.

Well, the problem here is another dumb idea that made into the books; the rule forbidding the use of Growth or Shrinking (or Density Increase) as Always On.






Premise: An Extra Limb should have all the default abilities that a normal limb has in the game mechanically. Then if it is different, the mechanics need to be modified from there. Extra Limbs doesn't do this, but it should if it were to be qualified to be on the same level as Growth and Shrinking.

Christopher Mullins

I’m not sure why you’re saying that “Extra Limbs doesn’t do this.”


I think that Extra Limbs is costed about right. It doesn't do much for a character, but it does do something.

A couple of examples to illustrate my thoughts: I have a character who's basically a humanoid lizard-girl, with a tail, bought as Extra Limb, Limited manipulation. She can use it to tail-slap someone in combat for a surpise move, or to hit someone behind her without turning around. She can use it to push or pull things while her hands are full. That's about it; not much utility, but then, she did'nt pay much for it.

In my fantasy world, I've got an insect race with four arms (NOT bought with limited manipulation). They can do things like wield a two-handed sword and a shield, or quad-wield one-handed weapons, or dual-wield bows . . . of course, they still only get one primary hand and can only make one full-OCV attack per round normally. But they could, for instance, use a sword and a shield AND carry a lantern at the same time.

I think the versatility of extra limbs is worth the five points, but not so useful that it should cost more.

Rep for Zeropoint. The first line really says it all. Despite his name, I think he’s made my point for me.


It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.


You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

Rook (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Rook.shtml)

So does Killer Shrike.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary would buy Extra Limbs, but needs to buy off the Disadvantage of not even having the first pair…

[Hugh Neilson]

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.



How is this a viable construct? I thought Accurate could only be applied to one hex areas, not radius ones.

There's a ruling out there somewhere that a Selective (or Non-Selective, I suppose) AoE can also purchase 1 hex area Accurate to allow each target within the area to be targeted at DCV 3.


Um... I don't thing normal strength is restrainable... you get to use it to break out of the restraints. Extra limbs would be restrainable if they couldn't manifest when the person was grabbed or tied up.

Agreed. If the STR were Restrainable, you could not use it at all when entangled or Grabbed. So my 60 STR character who buys all his extra STR "restrainable" has a 10 STR if grabbed, tied up or entangled.

[Hugh Neilson]

Question - exactly what effect DO extra arms have? ... most of the posts I been seeing mention grabbing both being able to grab more targets and prevent having all limbs grabbed.

I know that foci that require the use of hands use up one (or two).

As I understand things, extra arms mostly are cover by buying other powers. Presumably most effects can vary from limb to limb based on what effects you want.

The idea seems to be that certain effects are caused simply by having appendages and are universal accross all types of arms. Is there enough effect to cover those in the 5 points and what then should it include?

I think there's a few examples of what extra limbs can reasonably do scattered throughout the thread.

You can be using two hands for a task, and still have a limb free. Examples:

- grapple with two hands and punch with a third

- weild a two handed weapon while defending yourself with a shield and carrying a lantern so you can see

- carry more smalll items than you could without extra limbs (very useful in some fantasy games to gather coins and gems before fleeing...)

As a number of posters have noted, utility is limited, but there are some benefits, which seems the appropriate use of a 5 point power.

[zornwil]

I can see where you are coming from, but it's kinda apples and oranges to me.

Being large MAY prevent you from being Grabed by a smaller foe, but it's ultimately GM's discretion land. Wonder Woman can has grappled with titans, in the literal sense. This despite the fact that their fingers are longer then she is tall...
Just like Extra Limbs...

[Sean Waters]

..........................
Agreed. If the STR were Restrainable, you could not use it at all when entangled or Grabbed. So my 60 STR character who buys all his extra STR "restrainable" has a 10 STR if grabbed, tied up or entangled.

...which explains Wonder Woman...

[zornwil]

In my opinion, they shouldn’t.

Addressed below.


Yep. But since “Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged” is such a long name, can we shorten it – maybe to something like “Extra Limbs?”

Nomenclature is secondary; at least the rules description can be updated, then, regardless of name.

Of course I'd also argue that such picayune powers need more of a general definition rule than creating 9000 niche abilities.


‘cause you can’t have it both ways.

The thread started with Schirr’s contention that Extra Limbs isn’t worth EVEN 5 pts. To argue that it should be worth more than that certainly does not advance the case that it’s worth less.

Irrelevant. The question is, why does it have the value it has? Is it a pure wild-ass guess? Does it relate somehow to what you would purchase without such a power? If not, why not?


Well, the problem here is another dumb idea that made into the books; the rule forbidding the use of Growth or Shrinking (or Density Increase) as Always On.

A fair response and a legitimate indirect fix to Extra Limbs.

[zornwil]

I think there's a few examples of what extra limbs can reasonably do scattered throughout the thread.

You can be using two hands for a task, and still have a limb free. Examples:

- grapple with two hands and punch with a third

- weild a two handed weapon while defending yourself with a shield and carrying a lantern so you can see

- carry more smalll items than you could without extra limbs (very useful in some fantasy games to gather coins and gems before fleeing...)

As a number of posters have noted, utility is limited, but there are some benefits, which seems the appropriate use of a 5 point power.
Considering the way a D&Dish Fantasy game might work, with the need to carry lots of loot, pick locks, hold lanterns, and so on, as you mention, I would argue that increased # of limbs is worth a lot MORE than 5 points (in fact, although 10 per limb seems excessive, something like +5 per x2 might make sense, and is pseudo-allowed already in terms of general precedents). Whereas in a supers game it might be worth no points.

Although I could probably just as easy argue ~1" of Stretching allows you to do all this, too, and mechanically is pretty much the same thing except for the reach - and if you basically gave Stretching an Advantage to represent manipulation abilities and a Limitation to represent that you actually don't get the reach/the SFX limitations that are not just -0, it ends up probably at 5 points. Coming back to my earlier question on rationalizing the value.

In fact, Stretching at a low scale seems to do everything EL would do, since basically it just as easily rationalizes each finger becoming a limb, so to speak. A minor Advantage would need to be applied for number of limbs and utility of fine control, where that is required, as mentioned in the paragraph above.

[Sean Waters]

Just like Extra Limbs...

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.

[zornwil]

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.
I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph. Yes, we "can" although typically the 200 foot tall character (if not paying any points OR Disads for his size) still doesn't "fit through normal doorways" or "drive normal cars." Or a very strange GM or one who has a very particular game only would allow that. The rules don't state that a giant or miniature person doesn't interact with the environment as one - it just states that you don't have to pay points for being in that state.

By the same token, given the issues of having real-life extra limbs, I'm not sure if in many campaigns you wouldn't just "non-purchase" it like being 200 feet tall or 2 inches tall. According to the system's current logic. As some have stated, elmiinating the current ruling on natural state and size eliminates this issue entirely. (PS - not to suggest that means this is the right answer)

[zornwil]

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.
PS - also, not sure, again, that a "template" for EL is required. My impression from the write-ups and examples I'm seeing is that people are purchasing EL with different intentions in mind - further fudging the issue improperly and pointing towards a need to determine whether EL is intended to confer a specific benefit (and therefore embedding that more properly in mechanics) or if it's just an environmental ability wherein the GM owns the interaction and the player owns simply "the state of being" and no specific benefit, in which case we get back to the giant/miniature state question.

[Sean Waters]

PS - also, not sure, again, that a "template" for EL is required. My impression from the write-ups and examples I'm seeing is that people are purchasing EL with different intentions in mind - further fudging the issue improperly and pointing towards a need to determine whether EL is intended to confer a specific benefit (and therefore embedding that more properly in mechanics) or if it's just an environmental ability wherein the GM owns the interaction and the player owns simply "the state of being" and no specific benefit, in which case we get back to the giant/miniature state question.

Well I agree that people buy extra limbs with different things in mind and so could 'build' them using other game elements in different ways. I mean one character might buy it as +2 to sleight of hand skill (sfx extra prehensile limb), but you can guarantee that AT SOME POINT the character will want to do something other than magic tricks and cheating at cards with that extra appendage - and can't because they did not think of the use to start off with and build for that.

However, if I buy the power 'Extra Limbs' I then have something to use the 'Power Tricks' roll on. I think it is probably worth it just for that.

Turning to the size issue, I'm not sure that I see it the same way: being BIG seems to me to be no advantage at all: you still need to buy the abilities that you want to have: if anything, we are looking at this the wrong way around: being big is the sfx of the 'Larger than normal' disadvantage.

EL, OTOH, does have advantages, and, as far as I can see no drawbacks - not even unusual looks: as it is a power that does not cost END the sfx are invisible :)

[PhilFleischmann]

I think Extra Limbs, as a separate power, needs to go the way of the dodo. Emulate whatever your character's additional limbs can do with the appropriate powers instead, whether it's a minor boost to Climbing or a whole MP of grenades and additional STR when using the bonus limb.
How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?

[PhilFleischmann]

In fact, Stretching at a low scale seems to do everything EL would do, since basically it just as easily rationalizes each finger becoming a limb, so to speak.
How so? How does Stretching allow you to grapple with two limbs and punch with a third? How does Stretching allow you to hold more objects? etc. Are the two, limbs you already have built with Stretching?

[zornwil]

Well I agree that people buy extra limbs with different things in mind and so could 'build' them using other game elements in different ways. I mean one character might buy it as +2 to sleight of hand skill (sfx extra prehensile limb), but you can guarantee that AT SOME POINT the character will want to do something other than magic tricks and cheating at cards with that extra appendage - and can't because they did not think of the use to start off with and build for that.

However, if I buy the power 'Extra Limbs' I then have something to use the 'Power Tricks' roll on. I think it is probably worth it just for that.

Turning to the size issue, I'm not sure that I see it the same way: being BIG seems to me to be no advantage at all: you still need to buy the abilities that you want to have: if anything, we are looking at this the wrong way around: being big is the sfx of the 'Larger than normal' disadvantage.

EL, OTOH, does have advantages, and, as far as I can see no drawbacks - not even unusual looks: as it is a power that does not cost END the sfx are invisible :)
Lots of drawbacks to EL as a natural state - fitting in/potentially operating a car, social limitations (setting aside the 0 END and SFX invisible of course, no different than being a giant), sitting down potentially, etc..

I don't see the issue of "I didn't think of it in the beginning" as different from any other ability - a common enough problem.

Power Tricks is a good point - but if I have a foot with 20 toes, should I define that as a power???? More seriously, if I'm a natural giant, remember, I get no power tricks - and no real systemic way to buy "I'm a giant" to do so! Same problem in essence. But of course a non-issue for non-natural ELs.

But why would we rule this differently than the SFX of other powers which grant little odds and ends? Why would the Power Trick on an emulating power not be good enough?

Being big certainly has advantages in reach and interaction (depending, of course drawbacks there, too).

[zornwil]

How so? How does Stretching allow you to grapple with two limbs and punch with a third? How does Stretching allow you to hold more objects? etc. Are the two, limbs you already have built with Stretching?
Why would it not allow those things, would be my question? It's a common enough stretching application. Note I do suggest a minor Advantage or Adder since the level of dexterity of one's ear is not clear, though it would be normally offset if they were applied as "Extra Limbs, No Reach Beyond Normal Personal Space."

(PS - stretching to hold, just stretch your hand around stuff, stretching to punch and grab easy enough, extend the finger and plunk away)

[Bloodstone]

Just like Extra Limbs...

No, not like extra limbs. Not really.

It's baked into the mechanics: Grab only immobilizes 2 limbs by default. If you want to immobilize more, you have to Sweep Grab, which imposes cumulative penalties that may make the grab fail entirely.

Spider-man tries to Grab some normal thug and completely restrain him, he can do so at full OCV.

Spider-man tries the same thing against Doc Ok and he's at -4. If he succeeds with the first roll but fails the other two, Doc still has 4 limbs with which to beat on Spidey (though of course he does so at normal penalties for being Grabbed).

Having extra limbs is a definite edge mechanically.

Being large MAY be an edge. Like I said, GM discretion land here...

[zornwil]

Ah, okay, cool, I did not know that.

So (in theory) EL is really sort of (in this case) paying for a -4 penalty to grab limbs (or -whatever depending on how that's written - in a hurry so not looking up, but if it varies with # of limbs it's really a strong argument against a flat fee for ELs but I assume it's a flat penalty, too)

[schir1964]

And the Winner Is!!! Zornwil!!! (8^D)

I've been waitng and watching to see if someone would reach the conclusion I did.

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

So, it would seem my original question is answered.

What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?

Answer: It doesn't.

Unless someone else has something new to offer up as a unique mechanic that Extra Limbs grants.

Sometimes it's better to just shut up and let someone else answer than attempt to explain in a less articulate way. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

I'll expound later in a more detailed manner as to what I have learned from this thread about some of the assumptions of the Hero System. Until then, fire away! (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?

Well, like most things in HERO I would build it according to what it can do, not what it is. If my extra limb(s) helps me climb it's a Restrainable bonus to my Climbing roll. If it lets me reach the top shelf it's a smidge of Stretching just for that limb. If my extra limbs let me do Sweep Grabs without penalty then it's CSLs for Sweep Grabs (such a sweet example.)

Oh yeah, I hate the Fine Manipulation adder for TK. Where I come from we buy a limitation No Fine Work for our TK if it's clumsy TK.

[TheRavenIs]

The reason I did the 5 pts for the extra limbs was I thought it was pointed a bit high. 5pts became a comprimise to me, I allowed the +5pts to buy x2 extra limbs, and the advantage with haveing mutilples of 2 giving OCV pluses.

[PhilFleischmann]

Why would it not allow those things, would be my question?
Because it isn't what Stretching does. You can't argue from mechanics and then claim that the SFX of Stretching gives you extra grabbing and holding and object manipulating capacity. Stretching gives extra reach, for HTH attacks, among other things. And you can gain some aspects of Indirect on your HTH Attacks, and you cen add momentum damage. That's it. You don't get extra carrying capacity, it doesn't allow you to brachiate while holding someone, it doesn't allow you to carry four people at once, etc.


Note I do suggest a minor Advantage or Adder...
What's the functional difference between a 5-point Adder to 0" of Stretching and a stand-alone 5-point power?


since the level of dexterity of one's ear is not clear,
"dexterity of one's ear"? Was this a typo?


though it would be normally offset if they were applied as "Extra Limbs, No Reach Beyond Normal Personal Space."
IMO, it send up a red flag when you have a limitation that a power can't be used for what it is. In this case, you've got Stretching without actually Stretching. I would have the same objection to Desolid, Not Through Solid Objects, Affected By Attacks Normally; or EB - Does No Damage or Knockback. We have a wide selection of different powers so we don't have to go through these contortions to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[PhilFleischmann]

Well, like most things in HERO I would build it according to what it can do, not what it is. If my extra limb(s) helps me climb it's a Restrainable bonus to my Climbing roll. If it lets me reach the top shelf it's a smidge of Stretching just for that limb. If my extra limbs let me do Sweep Grabs without penalty then it's CSLs for Sweep Grabs (such a sweet example.)
You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.


Oh yeah, I hate the Fine Manipulation adder for TK. Where I come from we buy a limitation No Fine Work for our TK if it's clumsy TK.
Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

[PhilFleischmann]

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.
Actually, it doesn't grant any such thing. If you want PSL's vs Sweep, buy them normally.


So, it would seem my original question is answered.
It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.


What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?
I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.
All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

Are you with me so far?

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

[schir1964]

Okay Phil, I'll give a chance to explain it to me so that my thick headed feeble mind can understand. (8^D)

If I want to grab two separate targets, one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?

Do I purchase Extra Limbs?
Or something else?

I really want to know.

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?


You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.


Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

Now that I know what you want (extra limbs with full human arm capability (and limitations)) it's fairly easy. 1 hex AE: Selective, No Range, limited to however many limbs you have in addition to the 2 that the vanilla character gets for "free." I know it cranks up the END cost of STR usage, but I certainly burn more END when I am doing activities that use two arms than just one; stands to reason that 2+ limbs doing work would use more END. I know it gets cost prohibitive for Grond-ish Bricks, but they have been getting off cheap for years to be able to Grab-Smash!, sometimes multiple people at once. I know it's more design work, but let's not confuse the simplicity of Extra Limbs with elegance.

Extra Limbs is one of those powers that ramrods SFX down your character's throat, kinda like Armor. And, kinda like Armor, Extra Limbs is a kludgy shortcut that should be dropped off and discarded like a lizard's tail.

[PhilFleischmann]

If I want to grab two separate targets, one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?
Irrelevent. If this is what you want to do, AE Selective STR, or PSLs with Sweep Grab is probably the way to go. Extra Limbs will not do it.

If your grab someone with both hands, and continue to use both hands to maintain your grab, while then grabbing someone else with two more hands, Extra Limbs will serve well. But this has already been said before.

[Lucius]

It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.

I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.
All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

Are you with me so far?

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

Very well put!

I'd say the biggest jump is going from zero to one. With no arm or hand, you're not capable of grabbing, holding, or generally manipulating anything except in crude ways (yes, I've seen people who can do almost anything with their feet that I can with my hands. Such people are basically using feet AS hands and wouldn't count as having "zero" manipulatory appendages.)

Not as great, but still significant, is the difference between one and two. Now you can hold an object with one hand and manipulate it with the other.

But as you add limbs, you're likely to find you get "diminishing returns." When you get up to, say, 12 limbs, the difference of adding a 13th one probably seems miniscule. How many objects are you likely to need to hang onto at one time? Didn't you ever hear of POCKETS?

And perhaps the explanation for why Extra Limbs is so cheap, as well as for why it doesn't "scale," is that the designers felt that the actual point of diminishing returns was that low - that it wasn't worth much to add a 3rd limb, and worth nothing at all to add more beyond that.

Now, I happen to disagree with that assesment. Personally, I think 5 pts is too much for a single prehensile tail, and too little for "all the tentacles I care to manifest at a given moment." But if I were setting up the cost structure I'd probably still have an "absolute" level where I say "beyond this point, you can have as many limbs as you need; buy this for example if you want a creature that can extrude an unlimited number of manipulatory pseudopods."

Now, apparently Schir1964 disagrees in the other direction. I don't think he can possibly have overlooked what we keep telling him, that Extra Limbs allows us to, well, have extra limbs - to hang from the helicopter by my tail, hold my two-handed sword ready to use in two hands, and dial 911 and holler "HELP!" into my cell phone with the other pair of hands. It's just that he doesn't regard that as being worth any points at all; to him, you reach the "point of diminishing returns" as soon as you pass two.

[Hugh Neilson]

Ah, okay, cool, I did not know that.

So (in theory) EL is really sort of (in this case) paying for a -4 penalty to grab limbs (or -whatever depending on how that's written - in a hurry so not looking up, but if it varies with # of limbs it's really a strong argument against a flat fee for ELs but I assume it's a flat penalty, too)


The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

A Penalty Skill Level vs Sweep would allow the character to offset penalties against his own OCV when he undertakes a Sweep maneuver. This is not the action which was described. The action which was described was a different character Sweeping the multi-limbed character, and discovering he needed to take a penalty to target the extra limbs of the target. If you consider this build to be practical under the limits of Hero, please show us the math. Please ensure that it forces the attacking character to suffer the penalties of requiring a full phase, and dropping to half DCV, because he must use the Sweep maneuver to grab all six of Doc Ock's limbs. Also, ensure he has the option of Grabbing two of those limbs each phase and avoiding those penalties. Good luck creating this with "existing mechanics".

Even if you can, that won't solve the issue, of course. Even if I could build an Extra Limb some other way, why should I? I can build Armor out of PD, ED and Damage Resistance. Add in Costs END and I built a Force Field. Should Armor and Force Field be eliminated?

An Energy Blast, with Attack versus ECV and Invisible to Two Sense Groups is functionally equivalent to an Ego Attack, yet we retain Ego Attack as a separate power. And let's not get into how Transform can substitute for most exotic attack powers...


Okay Phil, I'll give a chance to explain it to me so that my thick headed feeble mind can understand. (8^D)

If I want to grab two separate targets, one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?

Do I purchase Extra Limbs?
Or something else?

+5 STR only for maintaining one-handed grabs and +2 PSL's against Sweep penalties to Grab two targets. Unlike the character with Extra Limbs, however, now that you're holding two targets, you can't pull one of your target's wallets out of his pocket and check for identification, dial your cell phone to get the police to come and collect these miscreants, Punch or Grab a third opponent trying to rescue his colleagues, or any of the numerous other things you could have done if you had Extra Limbs. Those are a separate mechanic, you see ;)


Now that I know what you want (extra limbs with full human arm capability (and limitations)) it's fairly easy. 1 hex AE: Selective, No Range, limited to however many limbs you have in addition to the 2 that the vanilla character gets for "free." I know it cranks up the END cost of STR usage, but I certainly burn more END when I am doing activities that use two arms than just one; stands to reason that 2+ limbs doing work would use more END. I know it gets cost prohibitive for Grond-ish Bricks, but they have been getting off cheap for years to be able to Grab-Smash!, sometimes multiple people at once. I know it's more design work, but let's not confuse the simplicity of Extra Limbs with elegance.

First off, STR already has No Range, so your solution shouldn't add a limitation for that. Now, let's look at your solution in action.

ForeArm has two extra limbs, plus two human arms. His Extra Limbs have Extra STR. He is fighting a group of Ninja. One Ninja rushes in and Grabs Forearm by surprise, pinning two limbs - the normal arms, not the Extra Limbs. He is standing directly in front of Forearm. Forearm uses his phase to Grab another ninja, who is standing to his left, in a different hex from the first ninja. He only uses one extra limb, since he's confident the -5 STR penalty won't be enough to give the Ninja a chance at breaking his grip.

A third ninja rushes in from Forearm's right side, and slashes at him with his sword.

Forearm: "I'll Disarm the Ninja with the sword."

GM: "How - you need a limb free."

Forearm: "My normal arms are held by Ninja #1, and one extra arm is holding Ninja #2. I'll use my second extra arm."

GM: "That won't work. Your two Extra Arms only have a one hex area. Ninja #3 isn't in the same hex that your first extra arm is holding Ninja #2 in, so you can't reach Ninja #3."

Of course, if there were four Ninja in a single hex, ForeArm would be able to grab all four with his two Extra Limbs in a single phase, with no penalty - even with his default limbs Grabbed. That seems a bit better than two Extra Limbs should allow, since two normal limbs couldn't have accomplished that feat. In other words, buying AoE STR doesn't get the same results as buying Extra Limbs.

[schir1964]

Irrelevent. If this is what you want to do, AE Selective STR, or PSLs with Sweep Grab is probably the way to go. Extra Limbs will not do it.

If your grab someone with both hands, and continue to use both hands to maintain your grab, while then grabbing someone else with two more hands, Extra Limbs will serve well. But this has already been said before.
You logic doesn't follow.

Why is grabbing one target with one limb and attacking another target with the other limb any different mechanically than Extra Limbs?

Let me ask it again another way.

I want to be able to do the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms. How do I build it?

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

A Penalty Skill Level vs Sweep would allow the character to offset penalties against his own OCV when he undertakes a Sweep maneuver. This is not the action which was described.
Actually, it is the action I described. Some seem to want to change what I want to discuss. Just wanted to point this out.


The action which was described was a different character Sweeping the multi-limbed character, and discovering he needed to take a penalty to target the extra limbs of the target.
Realm of SFX as some others have already pointed out, just like Growth and Shrinking.

BTW: I'm not answering anyone else's questions until I get mine answered to my satisfaction. Once that's done, I'll spend as much time answering anyone's questions.


+5 STR only for maintaining one-handed grabs and +2 PSL's against Sweep penalties to Grab two targets.
Okay, now can I grab one target and attack another target?
If I can't, how is that built?


Unlike the character with Extra Limbs, however, now that you're holding two targets, you can't pull one of your target's wallets out of his pocket and check for identification, dial your cell phone to get the police to come and collect these miscreants, Punch or Grab a third opponent trying to rescue his colleagues, or any of the numerous other things you could have done if you had Extra Limbs. Those are a separate mechanic, you see ;)
I'm only dealing with mechanics and two arm SFX right now. We'll get to that in a minute.

What are your answers to my other questions. A glimmer of light is penetrating my thick skull.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103


Because it isn't what Stretching does. You can't argue from mechanics and then claim that the SFX of Stretching gives you extra grabbing and holding and object manipulating capacity. Stretching gives extra reach, for HTH attacks, among other things. And you can gain some aspects of Indirect on your HTH Attacks, and you cen add momentum damage. That's it. You don't get extra carrying capacity, it doesn't allow you to brachiate while holding someone, it doesn't allow you to carry four people at once, etc.

Shrug, I don't read Stretching as you do apparently. I'm not suggesting it gives extra STR (you have to buy that) but for the life of me I can't conceive of telling a character he can't stretch his hand out to hold more water or coins or what-not like a bucket or such. I also can't imagine telling a Stretcher he can't punch with his finger, if he has the STR. I don't see where such actions are prohibited by the description or where they intrude mechanically on anything else in the system.


What's the functional difference between a 5-point Adder to 0" of Stretching and a stand-alone 5-point power?

Because in this case the stand-alone 5-point power has only one mechanical aspect to it, as described above, yet is being used to do things like hold lots of items and other mechanical advantages which seem, to me, to be already covered by existing powers. In this example cited, one lifted straight from comics and TV, we are simply using Stretching the way it seems to already function, but depriving it of the additional reach aspects.


"dexterity of one's ear"? Was this a typo?

Not at all. If I have Stretching and I want to stretch my ear to do something, it begs the issue. Note that Stretching allows any body part to be stretched unless you limit it. It inherently supports a character reshaping his foot to be like a bowl if he so desires.


IMO, it send up a red flag when you have a limitation that a power can't be used for what it is. In this case, you've got Stretching without actually Stretching.

But I have it with all the mechanical effects of Stretching save distance. So I use the mechanic, the power name is irrelevant.


I would have the same objection to Desolid, Not Through Solid Objects, Affected By Attacks Normally; or EB - Does No Damage or Knockback. We have a wide selection of different powers so we don't have to go through these contortions to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The question would be, why would these be proposed? It would strike me they are to achieve some mechanical aspect of Desolid or EB that is not part of the Limitations described. Interestingly enough, before reading your post, I proposed elsewhere "EB (whoops, I screwed up, should have been RKA!): Advantage: Penetrating; Limitations: No Damage (I did not say no KB but this would also be part of it actually, though I'd be more inclined to say that's a -0 since no damage essentially negates KB anyway) Except Penetrating." It was just an idea to allow for a Penetrating attack that only did BOD and had very limited risk of creating high BOD totals. You could mix and match but in this particular version there would also be no STUN, which may or may not be appropriate depending on the attack.

In the above case, I may have a character who wants the effects of EL but without the actual minuses desribed above to having limbs grabbed, for example. Which is an even weirder case because the mechanics of EL don't appear to support anything specific aside from some SFX or abilities that are typically "free" with other powers - pointing to its nature as a heavy SFX power not much removed from the vagaries of, say, Change Environment - or the environmental interactions and SFX of Stretching.

Is this the only right way to do EL? Absolutely not, of course. But it's an easy way to model the actual desired mechanical effects attributed above to EL, and is more specific in mechanical effects and limitations against value as well.

[zornwil]

You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.


Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103 (as a side note, I would still find Stretching as possessing these abilities I've stated normally, but that becomes increasingly a tangent to where I prefer to go with this discussion)

So does Stretching, with zero Lims or Advs, as is, my additions merely to make it "just like" one particular view of EL, one that seems to be what people most often are talking about mechanically (as goals do vary). Wrap my arm around the tree, call with the hand, other arm wrapped around the bad guy, and the other hand with a finger extended around the fragile object. You could argue against that, but I could also argue (though I would not in actual practice) that what you suggest is ridiculous even if you had Extra Limbs unless they were long and spindly enough to, well, um, stretch, and you had a solid INT and so on - it's not as if the rules describe the inherent limitations of the SFX.

All this conversation said, I don't recall if I've ever seen a PC with Extra Limbs in my games. It's always been SFX-based. Actually, wait, I think one person threw it into a VPP but in point of fact it was always unnecessary in deployment. Although I really like KS' write-up/character, I don't see the necessity of EL except for it granting the difficulty of having limbs restrained. It helps spell something out, but given all the other abilities that seems as easily described and as normal SFX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, it is the action I described. Some seem to want to change what I want to discuss. Just wanted to point this out.

Realm of SFX as some others have already pointed out, just like Growth and Shrinking.

Characters who are grown or Shrunk can still be Grabbed and have their limbs immobilized. I'm looking for a mechanic that allows this for certain, not an SFX that the GM may or may not agree should grant the ability at no cost.


Okay, now can I grab one target and attack another target?
If I can't, how is that built?

It is built by purchasing Extra limbs. The fact that there is no other mechanic for this function indicates that Extra limbs does something unique which is not duplicated by other mechanics.

To support your assertion there is another build under existing rules, I need you to show me how to build it without Extra Limbs.

[zornwil]

And the Winner Is!!! Zornwil!!! (8^D)

I've been waitng and watching to see if someone would reach the conclusion I did.

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

So, it would seem my original question is answered.

What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?

Answer: It doesn't.

Unless someone else has something new to offer up as a unique mechanic that Extra Limbs grants.

Sometimes it's better to just shut up and let someone else answer than attempt to explain in a less articulate way. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

Bear in mind, as contradictory as it may sound, I'm not against the short-hand of an "Extra Limbs" ability. I just think it should be clear and as appropriate explained as to what it is built on.

To this end, if we see this as really primarily that mechanic, then it's an ideal Talent.

[zornwil]

Actually, it doesn't grant any such thing. If you want PSL's vs Sweep, buy them normally.


It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.


I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.
All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

Are you with me so far?

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

You're speaking logically about real-world interactions - not about mechanical game interactions.

The game itself denies your next-to-last sentence flat-out - there is no greater value assigned to having 4, 5, 6, or 50 million appendages. Logically, I absolutely agree 6 arms are better than 3 - but due to how HERO works, it assigns no greater value. Why? Because it doesn't give any greater ability to extra limbs than a lack of restrainability, the CV bump indicated (which is related to that), and vague SFX around that. It basically is saying "if you want the greater functionality of lots of arms, define it BEYOND this ability because this ability is only about a narrow set of benefits."

Similarly, I can easily define my character to have no arms - but no Disad, indicating he is thoroughly fine however that happens to work out. Even without TK or anything else. Because physical attributes only have mechanical meanings and environmental interactions are left to GM control and joint GM-player imagination.

[zornwil]

Now that I know what you want (extra limbs with full human arm capability (and limitations)) it's fairly easy. 1 hex AE: Selective, No Range, limited to however many limbs you have in addition to the 2 that the vanilla character gets for "free." I know it cranks up the END cost of STR usage, but I certainly burn more END when I am doing activities that use two arms than just one; stands to reason that 2+ limbs doing work would use more END. I know it gets cost prohibitive for Grond-ish Bricks, but they have been getting off cheap for years to be able to Grab-Smash!, sometimes multiple people at once. I know it's more design work, but let's not confuse the simplicity of Extra Limbs with elegance.

Extra Limbs is one of those powers that ramrods SFX down your character's throat, kinda like Armor. And, kinda like Armor, Extra Limbs is a kludgy shortcut that should be dropped off and discarded like a lizard's tail.
Especially given Extra Limbs is NOT extra arms, it's extra "limbs", vague appendages which might be legs or even ears.

PS - as I stated in your rep, well said!

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

[zornwil]

Very well put!

I'd say the biggest jump is going from zero to one. With no arm or hand, you're not capable of grabbing, holding, or generally manipulating anything except in crude ways (yes, I've seen people who can do almost anything with their feet that I can with my hands. Such people are basically using feet AS hands and wouldn't count as having "zero" manipulatory appendages.)

Not as great, but still significant, is the difference between one and two. Now you can hold an object with one hand and manipulate it with the other.

But as you add limbs, you're likely to find you get "diminishing returns." When you get up to, say, 12 limbs, the difference of adding a 13th one probably seems miniscule. How many objects are you likely to need to hang onto at one time? Didn't you ever hear of POCKETS?

And perhaps the explanation for why Extra Limbs is so cheap, as well as for why it doesn't "scale," is that the designers felt that the actual point of diminishing returns was that low - that it wasn't worth much to add a 3rd limb, and worth nothing at all to add more beyond that.

Now, I happen to disagree with that assesment. Personally, I think 5 pts is too much for a single prehensile tail, and too little for "all the tentacles I care to manifest at a given moment."

This sounds a lot like it's based on the mechanics you expect to get from those limbs.


But if I were setting up the cost structure I'd probably still have an "absolute" level where I say "beyond this point, you can have as many limbs as you need; buy this for example if you want a creature that can extrude an unlimited number of manipulatory pseudopods."

Now, apparently Schir1964 disagrees in the other direction. I don't think he can possibly have overlooked what we keep telling him, that Extra Limbs allows us to, well, have extra limbs - to hang from the helicopter by my tail, hold my two-handed sword ready to use in two hands, and dial 911 and holler "HELP!" into my cell phone with the other pair of hands. It's just that he doesn't regard that as being worth any points at all; to him, you reach the "point of diminishing returns" as soon as you pass two.

[zornwil]

Irrelevent. If this is what you want to do, AE Selective STR, or PSLs with Sweep Grab is probably the way to go. Extra Limbs will not do it.

If your grab someone with both hands, and continue to use both hands to maintain your grab, while then grabbing someone else with two more hands, Extra Limbs will serve well. But this has already been said before.

While that would seem true, the rulebook says "Extra Limbs have no direct effect on combat" and the example given of punching one person while also grabbing that person leaves some room for environmental interaction questions still very much in GM hands. I find the "no direct effect on combat" a bit troubling when juxtaposed with punching and grabbing as that seems a contradiction - I would hardly call that "indirect" (in English, not game, terms). And beyond that we are left to imagine whether the being can really hold with multiple grabs and punches to multiple parties.

There are sparse mentions, understandably given its rather niche purpose mechanically, throughout so little clarity on just how liberal we can be in combat.

Interestingly, doing a search on all instances, I find a reference that a computer must have Extra Limbs, a person, or a robot it in order to use a laboratory. Very interesting. It certainly speaks to a mechanical commentary, particularly given that aside from such comments we would otherwise assume this would be free given the "human template." In fact, it really challenges the consistency around this. I would have thought a simple skill roll would be sufficient as that is the mechanical effect.

Again, I will come back to the issue of control and interaction. I would say at the least it should be made clearer that while the player controls possessing the limbs and the nature of those, the GM controls environmental interaction beyond specific mechanics granted (which is apparently still just the -4, as really any character might be designed with the apparent benefits of extra limbs in so many other ways and without paying for a specific mechanical benefit to the limbs themselves, just as SFX). Essentially, once we can state that, I believe the next logical step is to even more fully rewrite it to Altered From Human Template (well, I'd certainly try to think of a much better phrase than that) and throw in giant state, differently-placed eyeballs, and so on into what is really a personal form of Change Environment. Then it becomes a true power and answers a number of questions on "what if I just have some non-combat, non-mechanically-obvious cool features." The guidelines would be much as CE, really. You could also tack on things like that -4 modifier in the same manner other adjustments are tacked onto CE.

Then I think everybody would be happy. Well, no, I'd complain about the way it was implemented, Sean would speculate on the broader ramifications and need for a more detailed approach, and so on. :D But, seriously, then it would serve a much truer purpose that would be abundantly clear and useful to all, IMNSHO.

Yes, I like this idea a lot.

[zornwil]

Characters who are grown or Shrunk can still be Grabbed and have their limbs immobilized. I'm looking for a mechanic that allows this for certain, not an SFX that the GM may or may not agree should grant the ability at no cost.



It is built by purchasing Extra limbs. The fact that there is no other mechanic for this function indicates that Extra limbs does something unique which is not duplicated by other mechanics.

To support your assertion there is another build under existing rules, I need you to show me how to build it without Extra Limbs.
I'm missing something, can you please clarify - are you saying that a person with 2 arms (no Extra Limbs) cannot grab one person and attack another?????

[schir1964]

Characters who are grown or Shrunk can still be Grabbed and have their limbs immobilized. I'm looking for a mechanic that allows this for certain, not an SFX that the GM may or may not agree should grant the ability at no cost.
Reread the rules on grabbing. This is not true. They say that there is a point where character may not grab a large object (same goes for extremely small characters by extrapolation). It is left to the GM to determine that point of un-grabability. (8^D)

Since you are obviously basing your statements on incorrect information, I'll ignore references based on that information until you have a chance to revise your posts.

What I need for you to do first, is to show me exactly how the mechanics allow a character to grab one target with one limb and attack another target with the other limb.

If you are sticking with Phil's answer to this, just say so and I'll move on from there.

I'll patiently wait.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

I'm missing something, can you please clarify - are you saying that a person with 2 arms (no Extra Limbs) cannot grab one person and attack another?????
Yes, I agree. There seems to be some confusion between what Phil thinks and what Hugh thinks about this.

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Reread the rules on grabbing. This is not true. They say that there is a point where character may not grab a large object (same goes for extremely small characters by extrapolation). It is left to the GM to determine that point of un-grabability.

re-read my post. I said I want something that works by the rules, guaranteed, and is not based on GM discretion. You state above that "it is left to the GM to determine". That's not something that's guaranteed to have the desired results by the rules.


What I need for you to do first, is to show me exactly how the mechanics allow a character to grab one target with one limb and attack another target with the other limb.

The rules for a Grab provide that you can Grab a target with one limb at a -5 STR penalty. I suspect they do not go on to state "The other limb can then be used to attack another target", on the basis that we should not need to say everything which common sense would dictate.

Similarly, one must exercise logic to determine that a character with two extra limbs may use two limbs to grab a target, and may then use the other two limbs for anything he would normally use limbs for.

Are you arguing that we should have a section in the rules which explicitly details what can be done with one limb, two limbs and any increasing number of limbs, rather than assuming the gamer has sufficient knowledge of how limbs work to be able to figure this out?

Out of curiosity, do you enforce a rule that characters knocked out or killed fall down? Can you show me where the book says this happens?

I don't believe there is any explicit rule that states how I must roll the dice, but if I say "Roll Roll Roll" while neatly setting them down showing the numbers I desire, I suspect all players and GM's would conclude I am not "rolling the dice".

If your point is that there are things we are assumed to understand, that are not explicitly and painfully spelled out in the rules, I will agree with you. I do not agree matters that obvious mandate spelling out in the rules, however.

To the question of a character with two arms and no extra limbs, yes, he can grab one character at the -5 STR penalty and attack another. However, he requires Extra limbs to grab one person with two hands and attack another person with a hand. He also requires an extra limb to hold two people with a -5 STR penalty, and do something else with another hand (such as grab a third target, or attack him).

[schir1964]

re-read my post. I said I want something that works by the rules, guaranteed, and is not based on GM discretion. You state above that "it is left to the GM to determine". That's not something that's guaranteed to have the desired results by the rules.
Clarification: I was paraphasing what was in the book, but you seem to implying I am making a claim. I'm not. I was just making sure that everyone knows a bit of information that has a direct bearing on some presumptions here.

Good. First two things we can agree on.

1) There is no guarantee that a character is immune to a grab. Because it is GM determined per the rules.
2) There is no guarantee that a character may grab a target. Because it is GM determined.

Now that we agree on this we can move on.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

The rules for a Grab provide that you can Grab a target with one limb at a -5 STR penalty. I suspect they do not go on to state "The other limb can then be used to attack another target", on the basis that we should not need to say everything which common sense would dictate.
Okay, we are making progress now.

I think there has been a lot of different presumptions and thus viewpoints that have resulted in people talking past each other. So I am going to require a lot of picky details to be explicitly stated so I can make sure I am not misunderstanding what you or anyone else's viewpoint is. It's a slow process I know, but it's due to this 1" Thick Skull of mine.

So, what I have from you so far is the following for each separate limb:
-5 STR = Half Lifting Capacity, 1d6 Less Damage

Are these the only inherent penaties... what about restraining limbs?

If I have a character who naturally has only one limb, are the sweeping penalties the same for one limb as it is for two limbs?

I think we are making great progress so please don't stop.


Are you arguing that we should have a section in the rules which explicitly details what can be done with one limb, two limbs and any increasing number of limbs, rather than assuming the gamer has sufficient knowledge of how limbs work to be able to figure this out?
I'll get into this later, as I said before.

As for your questions about my intent, I want to fully understand how you view the current mechanics and their application to specific questions on natural limbs before I can adequately explain my viewpoint. I've tried to do so initially and failed miserably, so I need to understand your viewpoint and others before I try again.


To the question of a character with two arms and no extra limbs, yes, he can grab one character at the -5 STR penalty and attack another. However, he requires Extra limbs to grab one person with two hands and attack another person with a hand. He also requires an extra limb to hold two people with a -5 STR penalty, and do something else with another hand (such as grab a third target, or attack him).
And what penalties beyond STR, if any, apply?

Also, based on what you said in this last paragraph, I want to make sure I understand the application with a character with four arms per the rules.

Character grabs one target with (-5 STR) and grabs another target with three limbs (-5 STR).

Is this correct?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

re-read my post. I said I want something that works by the rules, guaranteed, and is not based on GM discretion. You state above that "it is left to the GM to determine". That's not something that's guaranteed to have the desired results by the rules.



The rules for a Grab provide that you can Grab a target with one limb at a -5 STR penalty. I suspect they do not go on to state "The other limb can then be used to attack another target", on the basis that we should not need to say everything which common sense would dictate.

Similarly, one must exercise logic to determine that a character with two extra limbs may use two limbs to grab a target, and may then use the other two limbs for anything he would normally use limbs for.

Are you arguing that we should have a section in the rules which explicitly details what can be done with one limb, two limbs and any increasing number of limbs, rather than assuming the gamer has sufficient knowledge of how limbs work to be able to figure this out?

Out of curiosity, do you enforce a rule that characters knocked out or killed fall down? Can you show me where the book says this happens?

I don't believe there is any explicit rule that states how I must roll the dice, but if I say "Roll Roll Roll" while neatly setting them down showing the numbers I desire, I suspect all players and GM's would conclude I am not "rolling the dice".

If your point is that there are things we are assumed to understand, that are not explicitly and painfully spelled out in the rules, I will agree with you. I do not agree matters that obvious mandate spelling out in the rules, however.

To the question of a character with two arms and no extra limbs, yes, he can grab one character at the -5 STR penalty and attack another. However, he requires Extra limbs to grab one person with two hands and attack another person with a hand. He also requires an extra limb to hold two people with a -5 STR penalty, and do something else with another hand (such as grab a third target, or attack him).
Do the rules state that? I'm not being difficult. To me it would depend on the size of the hands - which can be freely defined at no cost. I am thinking that this is really all SFX. Even the comment of "no direct benefit to combat" contradicts the notion of granting extra grab ability to an EL character in combat, although I DO agree the most frequent interpretation people would have would be to do so. But I just don't get a sentence that says "no direct effect" and then implies there is. Not a fault of 5th, either, I should clarify.

[Lucius]

You logic doesn't follow.

Why is grabbing one target with one limb and attacking another target with the other limb any different mechanically than Extra Limbs?

Because then you're out of limbs. If you have enough Extra Limbs, you can grab one target with one limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and then strike another target with another limb and then use still another limb to make an obscene gesture and associated PRE attack at the one guy who stayed out of hand to hand combat range.

Now I need to take an asprin. This really is Painfully Obvious.


Let me ask it again another way.

I want to be able to do the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms. How do I build it?

- Christopher Mullins

Extra Limbs with Invisible Power Effects, and Invisible Power Effects on as much of your STR as you want to use.

I believe that is the only way to do what you describe - "have the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms."


This sounds a lot like it's based on the mechanics you expect to get from those limbs.

The mechanics I expect to get from Extra Limbs is having extra limbs. It is nowhere near as complex, difficult, and obscure as you all seem to be making it.

Lucius Alexander

Uh oh! Now the palindromedary wants Invisible Extra Limbs

[zornwil]

Because then you're out of limbs. If you have enough Extra Limbs, you can grab one target with one limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and one target with another limb and then strike another target with another limb and then use still another limb to make an obscene gesture and associated PRE attack at the one guy who stayed out of hand to hand combat range.

Now I need to take an asprin. This really is Painfully Obvious.



Extra Limbs with Invisible Power Effects, and Invisible Power Effects on as much of your STR as you want to use.

I believe that is the only way to do what you describe - "have the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms."



The mechanics I expect to get from Extra Limbs is having extra limbs. It is nowhere near as complex, difficult, and obscure as you all seem to be making it.

Lucius Alexander

Uh oh! Now the palindromedary wants Invisible Extra Limbs
To me, I would expect a number of benefits specifically PROHIBITED by the power EL since one cannot use it for direct combat benefit and it can't of course overlap with other powers if it steals their schtick directly.

So what is left? Seems to me that it is left in the hands of GM discretion like CE, but like CE of course the PC has a defined SFX to assist in that determination. If that's really what it does (aside from a -4 penalty in a particular circumstance), hence my post above regarding the way it should probably be rewritten to accomodate the idea of personal body change effects.

[Lucius]

To me, I would expect a number of benefits specifically PROHIBITED by the power EL since one cannot use it for direct combat benefit and it can't of course overlap with other powers if it steals their schtick directly.

So what is left? Seems to me that it is left in the hands of GM discretion like CE, but like CE of course the PC has a defined SFX to assist in that determination. If that's really what it does (aside from a -4 penalty in a particular circumstance), hence my post above regarding the way it should probably be rewritten to accomodate the idea of personal body change effects.

I'll grant that you may be onto something there.

I'll also state that if you interpret the prohibition against having combat effects too strictly (i.e. to say that, for example, you CAN'T use it to grab and hold multiple characters on successive phases without letting any go) I think you're creating two problems:

1. "nerfing" the power so badly it really isn't worth 5 pts, and

2. leaving a gaping hole in the game, since if Extra Limbs doesn't give you the benefits of having extra limbs, what does??

Lucius Alexander

And an Invisible Extra Palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

I won't quote everything. Lucius, I agree that Extra limbs seems pretty obvious. To cover some of the issues raised above, let's look at the rules themselves, taken from 5er.


Extra Limbs have no direct effect on combat, but characters can use them to perform maneuvers not possible to bipedal humans (like holding someone with both hands and then punching him, or hanging from the ceiling by a tail).

NOTE: The rules explicitly state that:

- a character with two arms CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with both hands
- a character with Extra limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with both hands.

This is the MECHANIC that many of us, above, have repeatedly stated is provided for by Extra Limbs. Some other gems from the rules for Extra Limbs:

- you don't get extra attacks in a phase
- all but one is an "off hand" unless you have Ambidexterity
- they are as functional as your first two hands
- they are visible

The "mechanic" is that this character may do things which extra hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those of us who "only have two hands".


The grabber must use both hands/arms to gain the full effects of a Grab. If he only uses one hand, he is at -5 STR to hold on (but can use his other arm to make other attacks in later phases). It also notes using 1 hand halves any STR bonus from a grab-based martial maneuver.

So yes, the rules do state the penalty for a one handed grab. "Extra large hands" could logically buy off the -5 STR penalty.

TUB notwithstanding, the BASIC RULES provide that ONE HAND means -5 STR to hold on, and TWO HANDS means full STR. It does not refer to any drawbacks of having additional limbs. As such, and again despite TUB, I would rule that a Grab with two hands constitutes a full STR Grab. I would allow the character to use a third limb to get another hold at -5 STR (the target must now break both grabs), or use a third and fourth limb to establish a second Grab at full STR (again, requiring both be beaten to beat the Grab).

There is no rule that reduces damage by 1d6 for acting one handed. The openalty is to hold on. This seems reasonable, as a one handed ounch gets full STR damage. There are no other inherent penalties by the books.

A standard Grab immobilizes two limbs. [P 387, The effects of Grab). A Sweep can be used to immobilize additional limbs. Thus, a character with Extra Limbs cannot have all arms immobilized by a single Grab. Viewed another way, using a hand while two arms are grabbed is something impossible to a human biped, but possible with Extra Limbs.

A one armed character gets a disadvantage. he can only use one arm, so he's always at -5 STR to hold on in a Grab, and doesn't have a second arm to do things with while maintaining the grab.

[zornwil]

I'll grant that you may be onto something there.

I'll also state that if you interpret the prohibition against having combat effects too strictly (i.e. to say that, for example, you CAN'T use it to grab and hold multiple characters on successive phases without letting any go) I think you're creating two problems:

1. "nerfing" the power so badly it really isn't worth 5 pts, and

2. leaving a gaping hole in the game, since if Extra Limbs doesn't give you the benefits of having extra limbs, what does??

Lucius Alexander

And an Invisible Extra Palindromedary
The issue I see is that I'm not sure it's worth 5 points, PER SE, to grab and hold successive characters. It will be in some settings, in others it's unecessary, in still others that value will be more or will vary a lot depending on HOW MANY limbs you have.

As discussed, it seems to me that the SFX of many powers grant basically what people are looking for when they want EL, and I believe that's why I've seen it so rarely in play - though I could imagine others have used it more extensively given it's easy-to-use nature.

[Hugh Neilson]

The issue I see is that I'm not sure it's worth 5 points, PER SE, to grab and hold successive characters. It will be in some settings, in others it's unecessary, in still others that value will be more or will vary a lot depending on HOW MANY limbs you have.

Well, that's the same price as most Skills with +1 to the roll, an Eidetic memory, breathing water or breathing methane, or immortality.

It's 1 point less than reducing off hand penalties to -1 or speed reading at the 10x rate.

It costs 2 more than Absolute Time, Sense of Bump of Direction, lightning calculator, perfect pitch, not needing to eat or not needing to sleep, or most skills with a base stat roll.

I don't think there are a lot of abilities you can conclude have the same value in every setting, are there?

That brings to mind an old Call of Cthulhu comment on every character taking skill with a Firearms skill. It's very useful in a game where you commonly come into conflict with gangsters, cultists or even lower powered Mythos creatures. In a game focused on digging into the deeper mysteries of the Cthulhu mythos, you may find the only use for a gun is to kill yourself before you go mad, or get killed in a less pleasant manner by a powerful Mythos creature - and how much skill does that require?

[schir1964]

NOTE: The rules explicitly state that:

- a character with two arms CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with both hands
- a character with Extra limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with both hands.
And by extrapolation the expanded version:

- a character with one limb CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with two limbs CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.
- a character with two limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with Extra limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.

Whether the number of limbs is 1, 2, 3, or 4, the application seems consistent and logical.

They also seem pretty identical to me. What is the difference again?


Some other gems from the rules for Extra Limbs:

- you don't get extra attacks in a phase
- all but one is an "off hand" unless you have Ambidexterity
- they are as functional as your first two hands
- they are visible
Also note the rules concerning the default two limbs:

- you don't get extra attacks in a phase
- all but one is an "off hand" unless you have Ambidexterity
- the first limb is as functional as your second limb
- they are visible

Okay, as I've repeated before, what is the difference?


The "mechanic" is that this character may do things which extra hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those of us who "only have two hands".
How is this "mechanic" different than the following:

This character may do things which two hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those of us who "only have one limb".



The grabber must use both hands/arms to gain the full effects of a Grab. If he only uses one hand, he is at -5 STR to hold on (but can use his other arm to make other attacks in later phases).
Ah, I missed that subtlety. The -5 STR only applies specifically for a Grab Attack. This would imply that the both limbs are considered at Full STR for normal attacks.

Therefore:
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Two Limb Punch
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Three Limb Punch
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Four Limb Punch


It also notes using 1 hand halves any STR bonus from a grab-based martial maneuver.
This is missing from the 5th Edition. But it is consistent with ruling above.


TUB notwithstanding, the BASIC RULES provide that ONE HAND means -5 STR to hold on, and TWO HANDS means full STR.
Sidenote: I don't have TUB, so I don't know what you are referring to. But in general, unless a supplement specifies a rule as an alternative or optional rule, it is considered just as official as the basic rules (it may as well be considered additional text in the basic rules). Recent Steve Long clarification.


It does not refer to any drawbacks of having additional limbs. As such, and again despite TUB, I would rule that a Grab with two hands constitutes a full STR Grab. I would allow the character to use a third limb to get another hold at -5 STR (the target must now break both grabs), or use a third and fourth limb to establish a second Grab at full STR (again, requiring both be beaten to beat the Grab).
Ah, you must be referring to the "All Limbs Required For Full STR" that someone mentioned earlier.

Summation:
- One Limb Grab (-5 STR)
- Two Limb Grab (Full STR)
- Three Limb Grab (Full STR and -5 STR)
- Four Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR)
- Five Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR and -5 STR)
- Six Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR and Full STR)

Consistent. However, I have a several questions about this application.
1) How many attack rolls are required for a two, four, or six limb grab?
2) If a six limb character has grabbed a target with two limbs, do they get an automatic six limb grab later or is another attack roll required?
3) If a six limb character has six limb grabbed a target, does the character get to do three simultaneous attacks on the next phase.
4) Are multiple Full STR grabs specifically allowed by the rules or is this a House Rule application?

The reason I ask is that if a six armed character wanted to six punch a target in the same phase, they would need Autofire or Sweep to be legal.


A standard Grab immobilizes two limbs. [P 387, The effects of Grab). A Sweep can be used to immobilize additional limbs. Thus, a character with Extra Limbs cannot have all arms immobilized by a single Grab. Viewed another way, using a hand while two arms are grabbed is something impossible to a human biped, but possible with Extra Limbs.

A character may only Sweep Grab as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold them.
Or viewed another way:
A single limb character may only sweep grab a single target (or limb).
A two limb character may only sweep grab two targets (or limbs).
A three limb character may only sweep grab three targets (or limbs).
A four limb character may only sweep grab four targets (or limbs).

Okay, still making progess.

One more thing that may help me understand your viewpoint.

If a player defines his character as having only one limb (naturally) via description only, do you enforce a Character Disadvantage to reflect that?
If so, what would the Disadvantage be worth? Zero? More?

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Well, that's the same price as most Skills with +1 to the roll, an Eidetic memory, breathing water or breathing methane, or immortality.

It's 1 point less than reducing off hand penalties to -1 or speed reading at the 10x rate.

It costs 2 more than Absolute Time, Sense of Bump of Direction, lightning calculator, perfect pitch, not needing to eat or not needing to sleep, or most skills with a base stat roll.

I don't think there are a lot of abilities you can conclude have the same value in every setting, are there?

That brings to mind an old Call of Cthulhu comment on every character taking skill with a Firearms skill. It's very useful in a game where you commonly come into conflict with gangsters, cultists or even lower powered Mythos creatures. In a game focused on digging into the deeper mysteries of the Cthulhu mythos, you may find the only use for a gun is to kill yourself before you go mad, or get killed in a less pleasant manner by a powerful Mythos creature - and how much skill does that require?
Fair enough as a generalization, but I do think that EL suffers more than those. But in general, I think the notion of universality is highly over-rated, and as a larger discussion, sure, it merits its own attention - attention I have otherwise indicated is lacking to a degree. It is possible that one could also use rules regarding fitting rules to a game to equally address EL as well as what I've indicated above. Though I admit to a bit of infatuation with what I've proposed.

PS - though it's all tangential, would add that CoC is not really a game that I would consider really up HERO's alley, as the characters aren't really the same kind of heroes; I know others would prefer to use HERO for CoC, and I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I think the changes are fairly heavy lifting and may as well use something that is well suited to indicate the impotence of the players against the mythos

[Sean Waters]

Does having limbs matter?

Well, no: characters are notes on bits of paper.

OK, SA, does the imagineered version having limbs matter? Well, yes they are enablers of certain logical actions.

So they are just sfx: ways in which you explain things?

They ARE sfx in that they don't need to take any given form - they could be physical - telekinetic - whatever - but the sema appleis to any power - the question is, irrespective of the sfx, do they have game value?

Well there's a lot of stuff you could not justify in game without them, so I suppose they do. OK, does the number of limbs matter?

Well again from a game logic point of view they can be important - if you only have one leg you COULD claim that you can hop as fast as anyone else can run but, for instance, it would also be logical that you are easier to foot sweep, so the number of limbs could be said to have in-game value from that point of view. Similarly if you have 4 arms you can potentially grab 4 seperate targets at once, which would be hard to justify if you just have 2 arms.

OK, fine, so ther is some in-game utility to having a certain number of limbs, and the default configuration is 2 arms, 2 legs and a head, but you can build almost everything that you can do with extra limbs with other effects, so are they not just sfx of those powers?

Well, yes, if that is how you chose to build them BUT then you can';t really use those sfx extra limbs for anything but what you bought them for and whilst some extras (say +1 with DEX based skills in certain, limtied, situations) are easy and relatively cheap, others are very expensive as they need to scale - like the ability to grab more than a certain number of opponents at once having to be built as limtied AoE on STR.

So what it the answer?

I don't know; you can build extra limbs as sfx of a power, or you can spend 5 points on extra limbs. That is an absolute but absent other powers (specifically stretching) having 1 or 100 extra limbs is going to have limited utility: whilst with 100 extra limbs you COULD grab and hold 100 extra objects - they are going to have to be small for you to reach.

5 points of extra limbs seems like an easy enough way to pay a small dividend for an occasionally useful ability, but if you exclude the power from your games and rely on sfx, you are not going to prejudice anyone unduly - it is, afterall, only 5 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

And by extrapolation the expanded version:

- a character with one limb CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with two limbs CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.
- a character with two limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with Extra limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.

Whether the number of limbs is 1, 2, 3, or 4, the application seems consistent and logical.

They also seem pretty identical to me. What is the difference again?

I'm not sure what "difference" you are looking for this time. The DEFAULT is that characters have two limbs available to them. Departing from the default carries point consequences. If you receive less than the standard equipment, you receive points for a disadvantage. If you want to have more than the standard, there is a cost. The cost for extra limbs is set at 5 points.

The fact that there is added functionality in having added limbs. This extra functionality cannot be duplicated readily with other game mechanics. Thus we have the Power of Extra Limbs to purchase that added functionality. If you want your character to have other abilities with the SFX of Extra Limbs, you buy that with other constructs.


Also note the rules concerning the default two limbs:

- you don't get extra attacks in a phase
- all but one is an "off hand" unless you have Ambidexterity
- the first limb is as functional as your second limb
- they are visible

Okay, as I've repeated before, what is the difference?

These are the standards. A no frills character comes equipped with two arms, gets the standard complement of attacks in a phase, one limb is the off hand [Extra Limbs requires specifying the bonus limbs are either off or primary so we know whether the default for a six armed character is three dominant arms, one dominant arm or five dominant arms], both limbs are equally functional [not that this is written down anywhere - it is for extra limbs, but not the standard] and the limbs are visible [again not written anywhere for the standard, but noted for Extra Limbs specificallyu because a power that costs no END by default, like Extra Limbs, is normally NOT visible]. These are the defaults because this is our real life experience for human beings, and most fictional humanoid beings as well,, and the game starts with this "real life" default for lack of a more obvious default point.



How is this "mechanic" different than the following:

This character may do things which two hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those of us who "only have one limb".

The Extra Limbs mechanic describes something you add on. You are describing the default. The departure from the default in this case would be having only one arm. This could be described as "This character may not do things which two hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those who only have one limb." These things might also be described as "Frequently areising" and causing "Slight inconvenicence", making this a 10 point physical limitation.


Ah, I missed that subtlety. The -5 STR only applies specifically for a Grab Attack. This would imply that the both limbs are considered at Full STR for normal attacks.

Actually, it is only for the Hold aspect of a Grab attack. The rules don't reduce damage caused by a Squeeze or a Throw following a one handed grab.


Therefore:
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Two Limb Punch
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Three Limb Punch
- A One Limb Punch is just as powerful as a Four Limb Punch

I would say rather that the default is a one handed punch. A two handed (or more) Punch could be:

- a Sweep to strike once with each limb
- SFX for a Haymaker, or a martial combat maneuver
- a power purchased by the character (perhaps a Hand Attack or Autofire STR)
- a special effect that is just as powerful as a one handed punch


Sidenote: I don't have TUB, so I don't know what you are referring to. But in general, unless a supplement specifies a rule as an alternative or optional rule, it is considered just as official as the basic rules (it may as well be considered additional text in the basic rules). Recent Steve Long clarification.

Reference is made above to a TUB rule (optional or otherwise) which would penalize a character with Extra Limbs for using less than his full complement of limbs. Whether contained in 5er or any supplement, the rules are all optional - I like your reference to "just as official".


Ah, you must be referring to the "All Limbs Required For Full STR" that someone mentioned earlier.

Bingo!


Summation:
- One Limb Grab (-5 STR)
- Two Limb Grab (Full STR)
- Three Limb Grab (Full STR and -5 STR)
- Four Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR)
- Five Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR and -5 STR)
- Six Limb Grab (Full STR and Full STR and Full STR)

Consistent. However, I have a several questions about this application.
1) How many attack rolls are required for a two, four, or six limb grab?

Just as a standard punch is a one-handed strike, and changing that without a differing power or maneuver would provide no change in the effects, a standard Grab is a two handed Grab. If you want to Grab with all six arms, you would need three attacks, whether as a Sweep or over multiple phases.


2) If a six limb character has grabbed a target with two limbs, do they get an automatic six limb grab later or is another attack roll required?

Like any character, their standard attack is a two arm grab. If they want to Grab again with another two hands, they need another attack. Two notes here - first, I would impose the same rule on a character who grabbed with one hand and now wants to add the other. Second, the Grabbed character has a rotten DCV, so the next attack(s) will be easier to hit with. Using a Sweep for the 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8th arms may be a lot easier.


3) If a six limb character has six limb grabbed a target, does the character get to do three simultaneous attacks on the next phase.

The character gets exactly the same rules any other character would follow. Extra Limbs does not enhance the number of attacks in the phase. The character could, however, justify buying extra attack abilities which rely on a multi-armed hold. They could also reasonably justify Sweep Squeezing, but this woud carry the same penalty as any other Sweep.


4) Are multiple Full STR grabs specifically allowed by the rules or is this a House Rule application?

This was a pure off the cuff response, which is how I would handle multiple two armed attackers grabbing the same target. In my view, the results of two two armed Grabs should be the same, whether representing two characters each Grabbing with two arms, or one character Grabbing with four arms.


The reason I ask is that if a six armed character wanted to six punch a target in the same phase, they would need Autofire or Sweep to be legal.

And the same character would require Sweep or Autofire to perform multiple two arm grabs in the same phase.


If a player defines his character as having only one limb (naturally) via description only, do you enforce a Character Disadvantage to reflect that?
If so, what would the Disadvantage be worth? Zero? More?

It's a physical limitation. Off the cuff, I think 10 points is in the ballpark. There must be an official character somewhere who has only one arm. No Hands is 25, and the law of diminishing returns says one arm is more than half as good as two arms.

[schir1964]

I'm not sure what "difference" you are looking for this time. The DEFAULT is that characters have two limbs available to them. Departing from the default carries point consequences.

...The departure from the default in this case would be having only one arm. This could be described as "This character may not do things which two hands would make possible, but which are not possible for those who only have one limb." These things might also be described as "Frequently arising" and causing "Slight inconvenicence", making this a 10 point physical limitation.

It's a physical limitation. Off the cuff, I think 10 points is in the ballpark. There must be an official character somewhere who has only one arm. No Hands is 25, and the law of diminishing returns says one arm is more than half as good as two arms.

But not for having one limb. This is one of those confusing things with Hero.

The rules already have a built-in "disadvantage" for using one limb (-5 STR for Lifting, -1d6 for Maintaining Hold). Even if the character doesn't take the Character Disadvantage: One Limb the character still suffers the penalty for only having one limb, so how is it worth 10 points?

So it is not logical to have built-in penalties and then get points back for a Character Disadvantage which a character would suffer anyway regardless. Plus, what is the value of the penalties that are currently imposed?


The fact that there is added functionality in having added limbs. This extra functionality cannot be duplicated readily with other game mechanics.
I'm not sure I can agree with this even with the things you said to clarify your viewpoint. But I'll come back to this at the end of this post to explain why.



Actually, it is only for the Hold aspect of a Grab attack. The rules don't reduce damage caused by a Squeeze or a Throw following a one handed grab.
Actually, I didn't fully explain and it wasn't obvious what I was actually listing.

-5 STR for Lifting
-1d6 for Mainting Grab vs Target

Unless you are suggesting that each limb can lift 100 Kg independently? (Actually, I'm not sure now, are you?)


I would say rather that the default is a one handed punch. A two handed (or more) Punch could be:

- a Sweep to strike once with each limb
- SFX for a Haymaker, or a martial combat maneuver
- a power purchased by the character (perhaps a Hand Attack or Autofire STR)
- a special effect that is just as powerful as a one handed punch
Actually, I was suggesting that the default was a single limb punch. I was simply pointing out that the mechanics don't support any difference of damage caused based on the number of limbs. Therefore, a 100 Limb punch causes no more damage as a 1 Limb punch.

- A Sweep is a mechanic to simply allow more than one HTH attack in a phase regardless of the number of limbs (SFX = Limbs) (Sweep Grabs are specifically limited to number of limbs)
- Haymaker is simply added damage to an attack by taking extra time regardless of the number of limbs (SFX = Limbs)
- STR Autofire (SFX = Limbs)

You seem to be listing different mechanical ways that SFX: Limbs can be purchased. Not sure what the intent was here.


Whether contained in 5er or any supplement, the rules are all optional - I like your reference to "just as official".
So, you are suggesting that all rules are optional.
So, STR as a mechanic is an optional rule? Interesting.

I'm not sure why you like the reference. I was simply pointing out something that recently was clarified by Steve Long.


Just as a standard punch is a one-handed strike, and changing that without a differing power or maneuver would provide no change in the effects, a standard Grab is a two handed Grab.
Not sure I understand your reasoning.
Why must a Grab be two limbed by default?
A character can grab with one limb (SFX: Grab The Throat) without any additional mechanics.

Unless you are talking about commonality of SFX, which for me is different than a Mechanical default.

So for me, the Limb Default (if it were a mechanic which is what I'm trying to understand) would be Single Limb for both punch and grab. The Limb Mechanic wouldn't care if you use one limb or two limbs.

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you were trying to say.


...The character gets exactly the same rules any other character would follow. Extra Limbs does not enhance the number of attacks in the phase. The character could, however, justify buying extra attack abilities which rely on a multi-armed hold. They could also reasonably justify Sweep Squeezing, but this woud carry the same penalty as any other Sweep.

This was a pure off the cuff response, which is how I would handle multiple two armed attackers grabbing the same target. In my view, the results of two two armed Grabs should be the same, whether representing two characters each Grabbing with two arms, or one character Grabbing with four arms.
Actually, this is logical and consistent for an application of the current rules. This makes a lot of sense for using Extra Limbs as described in the book. I do agree that the treatment of Limbs (1 or 1000) should use the same rules and be consistent in how they are applied.

Okay, I think I now understand were the difference in viewpoint is and discovered one more thing that bugs me about the Extra Limbs, but I'll try to cover everything. But I'll do in the next post for convenience.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Basically, the difference in viewpoints posted here are due to presumptions about the different mechanics involved as to what they are designed to do.

First, I'll cover the things that are less vague and finally end up with what I think Extra Limbs does mechanically based on what people have said.

STR
What is STR as a mechanic designed to do?
Define the Lifting capacity of the character.
Define how much Damage the character can inflict by default.
Define the amount of Leaping Movement of the character.
Define how well a character can maintain a Grab on a target.

Why does STR grant these things?
It overlays the Human Template SFX: 5 Limbs, Fingers, Muscles, and Bones.

Presumptions:
Hugh has suggested that extra limbs (SFX) does not have any effect (associated benefit) on additional lifting capability.
Christopher has suggested that extra limbs (SFX) does have an effect (associated benefit) on additional lifting capability.

The problem is that the Extra Limbs (Mechanic) suggests that it has an effect and doesn't have an effect on a character's lifting capability.
1) Each Extra Limb automatically attains the Full Lifting Strength of a single limb of the character.
2) Regardless of the number of Extra Limbs, the character may not lift anymore weight than a single limb even when all limbs are utilized for lifting.

This is contradiction in application. Either STR and Extra Limbs are associated and have an effect on one another directly or they don't.

Extra Limbs
What does Extra Limbs do that is unique from any other mechanic?
Define the maximum number of targets a character can manipulate at any one time.

Overlaps:
Defines the maximum number of targets a character can lift at any one time.
Defines the maximum number of targets a character can grab at any one time.

Conclusions:
Limbs should be treated as SFX and the rules should define how different types of Limbs work and specifying the effect of increased numbers (the way Sweep and Grab were used to define the penalties/limitations).
Manipulation should be full fledged machanic that can be scaled to represent different SFX.

Extra Limbs, if used as a mechanic, should default to 0 STR to make it more consistent with its unique restrictions that are currently imposed on it.

Hugh, this is why I don't agree that Extra Limbs adds additional benefits. It borrows them from STR. Without STR, Extra Limbs loses most of its benefits. STR without Limbs however can still be utilized as benefit. A ball has no limbs but can still do STR damage by rolling even if restricted to a move-through. A Vehicle has no limbs, but can still carry up to its STR Lifting Capability in objects or people.

STR, as a mechanic, doesn't need any Limbs to do something useful.
Extra Limbs, as a mechanic, requires some level of STR in order to do anything useful.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

And by extrapolation the expanded version:

- a character with one limb CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with two limbs CANNOT punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.
- a character with two limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with one limb.
- a character with Extra limbs CAN punch a character he has grabbed with two limbs.

Whether the number of limbs is 1, 2, 3, or 4, the application seems consistent and logical.

They also seem pretty identical to me. What is the difference again?


Mr. Mullins, don’t pretend that you don’t know how to add and subtract. I’m sure you know the difference between 2 and 3, between 2 and 4, and between 2 and 10.




If a player defines his character as having only one limb (naturally) via description only, do you enforce a Character Disadvantage to reflect that?
If so, what would the Disadvantage be worth? Zero? More?

Christopher Mullins

If I thought that you seriously did not consider being one-handed, or being armless, to be a disadvantage, it would go a long way towards understanding why you don’t see having Extra Limbs as an advantage worth points.


But not for having one limb. This is one of those confusing things with Hero.

The rules already have a built-in "disadvantage" for using one limb (-5 STR for Lifting, -1d6 for Maintaining Hold). Even if the character doesn't take the Character Disadvantage: One Limb the character still suffers the penalty for only having one limb, so how is it worth 10 points?

So it is not logical to have built-in penalties and then get points back for a Character Disadvantage which a character would suffer anyway regardless.


Um, yeah. And the rules specify the penalties for not being able to see, and if you’re blind and can’t see you’re going to suffer those penalties anyway, so why is being blind worth points as a disadvantage?

Either for some reason you’re trying to argue that Physical Limitations (or really any other Disadvantage) should not be worth points – which would be a pretty bizarre position in my opinion – or you’re talking pure gibberish, which would also be pretty bizarre.

Can you please start making sense?




STR, as a mechanic, doesn't need any Limbs to do something useful.
Extra Limbs, as a mechanic, requires some level STR in order to do anything useful.

- Christopher Mullins


See, now THIS makes some kind of sense.
You CAN talk sense if you want to.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary has Extra Limbs with SFX: Lucius Alexander

[schir1964]

Lucius,

I've been extremely civil in my discussion with Hugh.

If you continue to try to belittle my opinions, I will eventually take action on that.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Couple of things: I'm not sure the diminution of holding ability (-5 str to grab and hold) would necessarily apply if you only had one arm as you would be using your full compliment of limbs. Even if it did apply, I can still see that having only one arm would be an aditional disadvantage, perhaps not mechanically, per se, but in terms of game logic: the inability to wield a sword and shield would be quite a burden for a knight in a FH campaign.

The problem is probably smaller in a lot of superhero campaigns where you probably have a robot arm or TK or somesuch to replace it and 'realism' is a shakier concept anyway.

Nonetheless...

Christopher: would you consider having NO arms to be worth disadvantage points? How would you represent a character with no arms?

I mean, as you say, you don't NEED arms to apply STR but then you do need STR to apply arms, so let us assume that the character STARTS at least with 10 STR, as normal.

[zornwil]

(as a mod)

Keep it civil or this highly interesting thread will be locked and/or I will start handing out infractions (i.e., you've been warned and don't expect further warnings, just actions). Civil means not calling into question other posters' intellect, making sarcastic comments about the cohesion of someone's argument, etc. If someone's posts are on your nerves or of questionable lucidity, leave it alone or ask for clarification without implying something.

Now let's go forward appropriately, no need for apologies or recrminations. Thank you.

[zornwil]

Couple of things: I'm not sure the diminution of holding ability (-5 str to grab and hold) would necessarily apply if you only had one arm as you would be using your full compliment of limbs. Even if it did apply, I can still see that having only one arm would be an aditional disadvantage, perhaps not mechanically, per se, but in terms of game logic: the inability to wield a sword and shield would be quite a burden for a knight in a FH campaign.

The problem is probably smaller in a lot of superhero campaigns where you probably have a robot arm or TK or somesuch to replace it and 'realism' is a shakier concept anyway.

Nonetheless...

Christopher: would you consider having NO arms to be worth disadvantage points? How would you represent a character with no arms?

I mean, as you say, you don't NEED arms to apply STR but then you do need STR to apply arms, so let us assume that the character STARTS at least with 10 STR, as normal.
SFX versus mechanics, human assumed template...

Just to jump in on the question, no arms is worth as no arms does...what does it "mean" - is it just a social lim because I (regardless of how) apply STR basically normally, I just look like a freak (to society)? Is it really "no arms" in that anything that requires arms I cannot basically do except to the degree oen can with feet (although technically I have full DEX and STR and so on there...)?

And this is where the human template does rear its head - the mechanics obey the assumption of not only a human but a fully functioning one, as while one can take a Disad, only the extent of the phraseology and value of the Disad matters. Disads, except for Vulnerability and a couple similar instances, are like powers we've discussed where the player owns the concept but the GM owns the interpretation of environmental effect.

I think the answer lies in that latter issue, that we really have to assume that the character can only reliably enact mechanically that which is on the sheet of paper as such, and anything else is a matter of interpretation, basically, of the GM as to environmental interaction.

Let's not take this as a bad thing - in fact, it's a good thing. HERO can very easily, without mechanical problem, simulate Dark Ages Beowulf-style epics or Celtic Age sagas where the hero carries his head around after it's been chopped off!

But that is why I think Extra Limbs falls more properly under a class of abilities that are bodily and that are real enough but vague enough environmental advantage to be worth points and requiring an explanation similar to Change Environment's. Then you can group in here Giant or Microbeing or Big Blubbering Pile o' Goo just as easily.

[zornwil]

Hmmm, just to follow up on that, "Carries Head" is a good candidate, as while I could buy various Senses with Advantages and put INT on a Focus (head) and so on, that may not really be what I want, and isn't really mechanically required UNLESS those mechnics are being DIRECTLY affected. If I can buy some sort of power such as Bodily Differentiation (ugly name, I know), define it as Carries Head and leave it to interpretation, understanding I get no reliable mechanical benefit or perhaps similar to CE some sort of constrained minuses/pluses o fosme sort, then I get to easily accomplish the required task with no system convolution - what Extra Limbs aims at but opens a can of worms for its lack of clarity given it is such a sort of island solution.

[schir1964]

If I thought that you seriously did not consider being one-handed, or being armless, to be a disadvantage, it would go a long way towards understanding why you don’t see having Extra Limbs as an advantage worth points.
You've misunderstood.

I'm questioning the value specific Character Disadvantages and how that cost was determined.


... The rules specify the penalties for not being able to see, and if you’re blind and can’t see you’re going to suffer those penalties anyway, so why is being blind worth points as a disadvantage?
You make a good point.
Why is Blindness worth points as a Character Disadvantage?
How did they obtain the value Blindness currently has?

If it were only from the penalties imposed when a character has his eyes shut, then perhaps it isn't worth any?
Also, if a character were to purchase other senses so that there weren't any Sense related penalties to the character, is Blindness still worth points? The character still doesn't have sight. Zornwil expressed this better than I did.



Either for some reason you’re trying to argue that Physical Limitations (or really any other Disadvantage) should not be worth points...
For "Physical Disadvantages" perhaps the value is not coming from the penalties already imposed, but instead permanency. Physical Disadvantages are usually not allowed to be bought off.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

... I can still see that having only one arm would be an aditional disadvantage, perhaps not mechanically, per se, but in terms of game logic: the inability to wield a sword and shield would be quite a burden for a knight in a FH campaign.
Quite correct. this is the difficulty that arises when attempting to be a Toolkit for many things. The mechanical says it is no disadvantage, but the SFX heavily suggests it should be.


Christopher: would you consider having NO arms to be worth disadvantage points? How would you represent a character with no arms?
First Question:
I guess I'm questioning what the goal of Physical Disadvantages in comparison to others like Psychological Disadvantages.
Psychological Disadvantages impose additional mechanical restrictions onto the character. These additional restrictions are why you are getting the points.
Physical Disadvantages sometimes do not impose additional mechanical restrictions onto the character. But where are the points that are gained coming from?

Second Question:
The same way a character who has a scar on his face is represented. In the appearance section of the character description.


I mean, as you say, you don't NEED arms to apply STR but then you do need STR to apply arms, so let us assume that the character STARTS at least with 10 STR, as normal.
Was there more to this paragraph? Were you asking a question?

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Just wanted to add...

Hugh, if I've said anything during out discussion of your viewpoint that came across as condescending or sarcastic, just let me know and I'll go back and change it. I've been trying hard to not do this but sometimes my thickheadedness can come across that way.

In order to try to understand one's viewpoint, I need to get my own presumptions out of the way first. This means I will not take anything for granted and question even those things that may be considered "Painfully Obvious".

That's why I went to the trouble of trying to understand what your viewpoint was since there was "too much presuming going on around here". (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

I'm not sure the diminution of holding ability (-5 str to grab and hold) would necessarily apply if you only had one arm as you would be using your full compliment of limbs.
Yes, there is some vagueness about the -5 STR application for Limbs. I would normally have questioned it, but then it would require a more exhaustive discussion of the system and how to implement a more consistent system per limb. I didn't want to get into that while I was trying to understand Hugh's viewpoint.

Both Hugh and I were discussing things on the presumtion that two limbs are required for each fulll STR application (for the Human Template SFX only).

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Quite correct. this is the difficulty that arises when attempting to be a Toolkit for many things. The mechanical says it is no disadvantage, but the SFX heavily suggests it should be.


First Question:
I guess I'm questioning what the goal of Physical Disadvantages in comparison to others like Psychological Disadvantages.
Psychological Disadvantages impose additional mechanical restrictions onto the character. These additional restrictions are why you are getting the points.
Physical Disadvantages sometimes do not impose addtional mechanical restrictions onto the character. But where are the points that gained coming from?

Second Question:
The same way a character who has a scar on his face is represented. In the appearance section of the character description.


Was there more this. Were you asking a question?

- Christopher Mullins

Lots of disadvantages do not necessarily impose a 'mechanical' disadvantage - take enraged/berserk - that is something that has a mechanical system to impliment it (11- you go crazy at the sight of blood - but over and above that it is just role playing and story interaction, same with rivalries, social limtiations and most psych lims too - there may be a mechanical system to impliment it - ego roll - but not to control it once the disadvantage is 'in the game'. I would argue that lacking limbs works the same way. In this instance there IS a mechanical effect - the number of objects you can grab - although that is monr - the rest of the disadvantage comes from teh role playing and charcter interaction.

Xormwil points out that you don't need arms to apply strength. Let us tae that further - you could be a floating shere of protoplasm with no discernable features and still 'work' for almost any given charcter sheet, but I'm retty sure there would be story and role playing implications of that particular choice that would justify the several disadvantages you COULD (but are clearly not required to) take if that was the character you wanted to play.

A human character with missing limbs will suffer some problems in a game I run: for instance climbing rolls would suffer. Now you can't really buy '-2 to climbing rolls' as a disadvantage, so you use 'physical limitation', so you NEED that limitation there if you want to play a human with a missing limb, just to make the character make sense.

The system is not a fine enough tool (as yet, but keep working on it Christopher) to model every nuance of advantage, limitation, disadvantage and so on. SOmetimes you just have to take a stab at it and say 'breathing underwater: 5 points' or 'extra limbs: '5 points'.

There are already a number of powers int he system that do not (in their basic form, anyway) confer a mechanical advantage - shapeshift springs to mind, and EDM too. The points you spend on them are all about how useful those abilities are to the story that you will be involved in - it is purchasing the ability to affect the story in certain ways. 'I can go to Valhalla' is not a mechanical effect, it is a storytelling tool, but something of value tot he player because of the options it gives to him or her. Similar arguments may well apply to 'extra limbs'.

PS the last bit of my post was a clarification fo the ground rules of the questions I asked which, unless I am much mistaken, you rather neatly avoided answering :D

[schir1964]

Almost forgot.

I'm answering questions now if anyone wants clarification on how I would handle things.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

The system is not a fine enough tool (as yet, but keep working on it Christopher) to model every nuance of advantage, limitation, disadvantage and so on. SOmetimes you just have to take a stab at it and say 'breathing underwater: 5 points' or 'extra limbs: '5 points'.
I try. (8^D)

I think a Manipulation mechanic could solve a lot of this issue, but that's just me. (8^D)


PS the last bit of my post was a clarification fo the ground rules of the questions I asked which, unless I am much mistaken, you rather neatly avoided answering :D
I thought I did. If the a no arm character has no measurable mechanical disadvantage beyond what is already implemented in the system, then it is listed in the Appearance Section. If it does have a measurable mechanical disadvantage beyond what is already implemented by the system, then it is handled by a Character Disadvantage.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were asking?

PS: I need you over at GIR when you get some extra time.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Xormwil?

PS - ah, I see, Z is to X as N is to M on the keyboard - it looks good.

[PhilFleischmann]

And perhaps the explanation for why Extra Limbs is so cheap, as well as for why it doesn't "scale," is that the designers felt that the actual point of diminishing returns was that low - that it wasn't worth much to add a 3rd limb, and worth nothing at all to add more beyond that.

Now, I happen to disagree with that assesment. Personally, I think 5 pts is too much for a single prehensile tail,
Yes, and I agree. But in most cases a prehensile tail (monkey style) would cost less than 5 points, because it would have some "Limited Manipulation" on it.

Lizardman has a big tail that he can whack people with - this would not be bought as an Extra Limb at all, maybe just SFX, or maybe a HA, or something like that.
Monkeyman has a prehensile tail that he can grab people and pick up things with - Extra Limb with Limited Manipulation 3 points, or maybe 2.
Handyman has an extra hand with fingers he can manipluate objects just like any other hand - 5 points Extra Limb


But if I were setting up the cost structure I'd probably still have an "absolute" level where I say "beyond this point, you can have as many limbs as you need; buy this for example if you want a creature that can extrude an unlimited number of manipulatory pseudopods."
I wouldn't have a problem with this. Say 5 points for the one extra limb, 8 for two, 9 for three, 10 for four or more. Or something like that. With Limited Manipulation available as a lim.


Now, apparently Schir1964 disagrees in the other direction. I don't think he can possibly have overlooked what we keep telling him, that Extra Limbs allows us to, well, have extra limbs - to hang from the helicopter by my tail, hold my two-handed sword ready to use in two hands, and dial 911 and holler "HELP!" into my cell phone with the other pair of hands. It's just that he doesn't regard that as being worth any points at all; to him, you reach the "point of diminishing returns" as soon as you pass two.
From his most recent posts, he seems to thing the point of diminishing returns occurs as soon as you pass zero.

[PhilFleischmann]

You logic doesn't follow.

Why is grabbing one target with one limb and attacking another target with the other limb any different mechanically than Extra Limbs?
I have no idea how to respond to such a question without seeming sarcastic or insulting. It's as if we live in different universes. Extra Limbs is extra limbs. Not Extra Limbs is not. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Hugh spelled it out quite clearly. One limb to grab and one limb to punch another target is two limbs: 1+1=2. Two is the default number that a character is given. If you buy Extra Limbs, you can grab a target with two limbs, and punch another target with another limb: 2+1=3. Three is more limbs than the base character has.

I really don't mean to be sarcastic or condescending, but I really am baffled by what it is you aren't understanding here. If I wasn't already familiar with your other contributions to these forums, I'd probably conclude that you were a troll.


Let me ask it again another way.

I want to be able to do the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms. How do I build it?
You buy Extra Limbs and come up with some other SFX that lets you manipulate objects as if you has extra limbs. Maybe you're a speedster and can move your two arms so quickly that you can manipulate additional objects by letting go for a microsecond to do something else. Maybe you can justify it with abnormally large hands, or extra fingers on each hand, or maybe you can stretch your arms like rubber to wrap around other objects to grab them and maybe even manipulate them. Maybe you've got other body parts that can be used like hands (elephant's trunk, prehensile hair, tongue, etc.) The SFX is up to you.

[PhilFleischmann]

While that would seem true, the rulebook says "Extra Limbs have no direct effect on combat" and the example given of punching one person while also grabbing that person leaves some room for environmental interaction questions still very much in GM hands. I find the "no direct effect on combat" a bit troubling when juxtaposed with punching and grabbing as that seems a contradiction - I would hardly call that "indirect" (in English, not game, terms). And beyond that we are left to imagine whether the being can really hold with multiple grabs and punches to multiple parties.
I think you're reading too much into that phrase. I believe "no direct effect on combat" means no bonus to CV (which was the case in previous editions), no additional damage, no additional STR, no additional DEX, no additional attacks per phase, no bonus to maneuvers.

[schir1964]

You buy Extra Limbs and come up with some other SFX that lets you manipulate objects as if you has extra limbs. Maybe you're a speedster and can move your two arms so quickly that you can manipulate additional objects by letting go for a microsecond to do something else. Maybe you can justify it with abnormally large hands, or extra fingers on each hand, or maybe you can stretch your arms like rubber to wrap around other objects to grab them and maybe even manipulate them. Maybe you've got other body parts that can be used like hands (elephant's trunk, prehensile hair, tongue, etc.) The SFX is up to you.
You seem to have misunderstood the question.

I want the mechanics used for two natural limbs as in, the normal human template. Then compare those mechanics to the mechanic of Extra Limbs.

They should be the same mechanic, and Hugh seems to agree, but there are inconsistencies in the Extra Limbs mechanic and most of its utility comes from STR.

You seem to have come back on the tail end of things, so perhaps you need more time to digest what has been posted.

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

The rules already have a built-in "disadvantage" for using one limb (-5 STR for Lifting, -1d6 for Maintaining Hold). Even if the character doesn't take the Character Disadvantage: One Limb the character still suffers the penalty for only having one limb, so how is it worth 10 points?

The one limbed character doesn't have the choice of using two hands. The two armed character can decide he doesn't weant to take a -5 STR penalty to hold on, and grab with both hands. Alternatively, he can accept the penalty and do something else with his free hand. The one carmed character lacks this choice. He can never use two hands, and he has no second hand with which to do something else with a one handed grab.

This seems pretty basic to me - the one armed charactre lackas the abilityt to do things other characters can do. He gets points for "selling back" those choices.


So it is not logical to have built-in penalties and then get points back for a Character Disadvantage which a character would suffer anyway regardless. Plus, what is the value of the penalties that are currently imposed?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to impose penalties for certain actions and provide a Disadvantage for characters who lack the choice of avoiding thiose penalties. There are penalties for being unable to see, and characters who close their eyes can't see, so they suffer those penalties. Blind characters lack the choice of opening their eyes, so they get points back. Sighted characters can readily avoid these penalties, so no points.


Actually, I didn't fully explain and it wasn't obvious what I was actually listing.

-5 STR for Lifting
-1d6 for Mainting Grab vs Target

Unless you are suggesting that each limb can lift 100 Kg independently? (Actually, I'm not sure now, are you?)

Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it. I think the typical person can lift more with two hands than one, but not twice as much. Maybe the Lift should be -2 or -3 STR for a one handed lift. It's not something I see as an in-game issue enough to be worth setting specific rules.


Actually, I was suggesting that the default was a single limb punch. I was simply pointing out that the mechanics don't support any difference of damage caused based on the number of limbs. Therefore, a 100 Limb punch causes no more damage as a 1 Limb punch.

My assumption becomes the character punches with only one of his limbs, whether from a choice of 2 or a choice of 100. He can describe other actions that make use of additional arms and/or purchase extra abilities to model taking advantage of those extra arms. Most could have SFX related to multiple limbs, or SFX related to something else. Most mechanics could simulate a variety of SFX.


Not sure I understand your reasoning.
Why must a Grab be two limbed by default?
A character can grab with one limb (SFX: Grab The Throat) without any additional mechanics.

The additional mechanic is the -5 STR for holding on, and the ability to have a hand free. The default is described as a two handed grab, and changes when only one hand is used are also described.


So for me, the Limb Default (if it were a mechanic which is what I'm trying to understand) would be Single Limb for both punch and grab. The Limb Mechanic wouldn't care if you use one limb or two limbs.

The default under the rules is that you use two hands for a grab. There are also rules for a one handed grab. There are no special rules for a two handed Punch, probably since a two handed punch isn't near a common as a one handed Grab in source material (or boxing!).

[Hugh Neilson]

Presumptions:
Hugh has suggested that extra limbs (SFX) does not have any effect (associated benefit) on additional lifting capability.
Christopher has suggested that extra limbs (SFX) does have an effect (associated benefit) on additional lifting capability.

The problem is that the Extra Limbs (Mechanic) suggests that it has an effect and doesn't have an effect on a character's lifting capability.
1) Each Extra Limb automatically attains the Full Lifting Strength of a single limb of the character.
2) Regardless of the number of Extra Limbs, the character may not lift anymore weight than a single limb even when all limbs are utilized for lifting.

This is contradiction in application. Either STR and Extra Limbs are associated and have an effect on one another directly or they don't.

As has been said many times before, no number of extra arms makes your back or legs any stronger, limiting the maximum you can lift with all those arms put together. How much can you lift over your head when unencumbered? Put that weight down. Now put on a backpack with 50 pounds of gear. Can you still lift the weight you just put down with your arms, or is it too heavy when you're already carrying 50 pounds without using your arms?


Extra Limbs, if used as a mechanic, should default to 0 STR to make it more consistent with its unique restrictions that are currently imposed on it.

By the same logic, should the points recovered by having only one arm, or having none, be increased if the character has more than 0 STR? To the extent Extra Limbs grants extra utility to STR, loss of a limb removes some of that utility, doesn't it?

One could view additional limbs as presently written as an Adder to STR. Increased Noncombat Multiple allows faster movement if you have 40" flight than if you have 5" of flight, but is also still an adder.


Hugh, this is why I don't agree that Extra Limbs adds additional benefits. It borrows them from STR. Without STR, Extra Limbs loses most of its benefits. STR without Limbs however can still be utilized as benefit. A ball has no limbs but can still do STR damage by rolling even if restricted to a move-through. A Vehicle has no limbs, but can still carry up to its STR Lifting Capability in objects or people.

The ball can do more things if it has Limbs. So can the vehicle. Neither can Grab an unwilling target without limbs.


STR, as a mechanic, doesn't need any Limbs to do something useful.
Extra Limbs, as a mechanic, requires some level of STR in order to do anything useful.

A 0 STR character with Extra Limbs could use them to wield knives, throw darts or lift small objects. How far must STR be negative before the character has "no level of STR"? In any case, I believe the rules suggest primary characteristics not be permitted to be sld back to a level below 5, so a 0 STR character with Extra Limbs is outside the areas the rules need to quantify.

[schir1964]

As has been said many times before, no number of extra arms makes your back or legs any stronger, limiting the maximum you can lift with all those arms put together. How much can you lift over your head when unencumbered? Put that weight down. Now put on a backpack with 50 pounds of gear. Can you still lift the weight you just put down with your arms, or is it too heavy when you're already carrying 50 pounds without using your arms?
So are you suggesting that Extra Limbs: Legs will give more lifting and no extra damage? It would be consistent based on your viewpoint above.


By the same logic, should the points recovered by having only one arm, or having none, be increased if the character has more than 0 STR? To the extent Extra Limbs grants extra utility to STR, loss of a limb removes some of that utility, doesn't it?
Only if one associates a direct correlation between STR and Extra Limbs concerning STR. You seem to suggest it does, based on your comments. But perhaps I am misunderstanding you.


One could view additional limbs as presently written as an Adder to STR. Increased Noncombat Multiple allows faster movement if you have 40" flight than if you have 5" of flight, but is also still an adder.
It would be more consistent if it were. It was one of the possible solutions I was toying with trying to make things more consistent.


The ball can do more things if it has Limbs. So can the vehicle. Neither can Grab an unwilling target without limbs.
Not with STR though, which was my point.
And you've already suggested that Extra Limbs should perhaps grant STR benefits due to association. Certainly the rules seems to suggest that there is some sort of assocation due to the -5 STR Penalty for Grabs.


A 0 STR character with Extra Limbs could use them to wield knives, throw darts or lift small objects. How far must STR be negative before the character has "no level of STR"? In any case, I believe the rules suggest primary characteristics not be permitted to be sld back to a level below 5, so a 0 STR character with Extra Limbs is outside the areas the rules need to quantify.
If there is no association between Extra Limbs and STR, then there is no STR at all for Extra Limbs to use. It doesn't exist under this postulation. So no STR to do anything.

I see it as no more outside the rules as Shrinking not affecting your STR regardless of size. It should, but it doesn't. There many things in the rules that don't make sense or are inconsistent.

Remember, this thread isn't about me trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't use Extra Limbs as written. I was wanting to know why other people think it should exist as separate power instead of SFX. With the possible result of convincing me by exposing something I've overlooked.

Thank you and to everyone else who participated.

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

You seem to have misunderstood the question.

I want the mechanics used for two natural limbs as in, the normal human template.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: You want me to spell out in game-mechanical terms what normal hands are for? If you need me to describe the function of hands, then I see no point to continuing this discussion. This is a role-playing game, not a board game. In a game like chess, the rules must describe all the details about how the pieces move, according to the geometric pattern of the board. A role-playing game is intended to simulate reality or a fantastic version of it. It is beyond the scope of any RPG rulebook to describe the normal uses of human apendages. It is assumed that those purchasing RPG books and playing the games already live in reality and understand a few basic things about the real world, real people, and the genre they're playing in. The characters in an RPG are not like chess pieces on a board. They are like characters in a work of fiction (fantasy, comic book, sci-fi, etc.). They have the full range of actions available to them that normal humans do, except where constructed within the rules of the game to do otherwise.


Then compare those mechanics to the mechanic of Extra Limbs.

They should be the same mechanic,
What do you mean by "the same mechanic"? Two limbs is not the same as four limbs. Yes, each individual limb has the same capabilities whether it's one of the first two or one of the Extra. But additional limbs provide additional options, as has been mentioned many, many times on this thread so far. By the same token, the mechanic for 10 STR is the same as the mechanic for 20 STR, the only difference being that 20 is more than 10. But each has the same mechanic in that they both give 1d6 HtH damage, +1 PD, +1 REC, x2 Lifting, +1" Leaping, etc., per 5 STR.


and Hugh seems to agree, but there are inconsistencies in the Extra Limbs mechanic and most of its utility comes from STR.
So what inconsistancy do you see? You still have to pay for your STR, apart from any extra limbs you might have, so you aren't getting anything for free.


You seem to have come back on the tail end of things, so perhaps you need more time to digest what has been posted.
Now, who's being patronizing? I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding a few paragraphs written in English, thank you very much. My opinions are not less valid just because I was away from the forums for a few days. This is what you asked me:

I want to be able to do the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms. How do I build it?
And I answered the exact question you asked. Now you say you want the mechanics of two natural limbs. The mechanics are simple: "You have two natural limbs like a normal human." The mechanics for Extra Limbs are also simple: "You have more limbs than a normal human does, they can do what normal human limbs do, but you have more of them." There is no need for the rulebook to go into more detail than that. I would guess that at least 99.9999% of all role-players were familiar with the use of hands years before they ever learned about role-playing.

[PhilFleischmann]

A ball has no limbs but can still do STR damage by rolling even if restricted to a move-through.
I actually made a ball "character" once. It was a robot minion of a mastermind villain (he had a bunch of differently-shaped robots). I don't remember what its STR was, but it was fairly high. And no, it didn't have any limbs. Yes, it was limited to Strike, Move-Thru, and Move-By. It had no capacity to pick things up or manipulate objects in any way, let alone Grab, Dirarm, or Takeaway. The base character has these abilities, so this robot gets a PhysLim for not having them.


STR, as a mechanic, doesn't need any Limbs to do something useful.
And with limbs, it can do more things useful.


Extra Limbs, as a mechanic, requires some level of STR in order to do anything useful.
How fortunate then, that every character has "some level of STR."

[zornwil]

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: You want me to spell out in game-mechanical terms what normal hands are for? If you need me to describe the function of hands, then I see no point to continuing this discussion.

Why? This is entirely legitimate. The essential answer is that virtually nothing, mechanically, like many RPGs. They affect SFX in HERO and environmental interaction. You can design a character without hands and he will perform identically mechanically to a character with hands. Of course, his types of interactions will vary tremendously.

[schir1964]

By the same token, the mechanic for 10 STR is the same as the mechanic for 20 STR, the only difference being that 20 is more than 10. But each has the same mechanic in that they both give 1d6 HtH damage, +1 PD, +1 REC, x2 Lifting, +1" Leaping, etc., per 5 STR.
I wanted the list of mechanics that Natural Limbs implied via the rules. Just like you listed above for STR. Not for hands, feet, fingers, or toes. There is a difference.


Now, who's being patronizing? I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding a few paragraphs written in English, thank you very much.
You've misunderstood me.

1) I said it "seemed" like you came in on the tail end of this discussion. That is, from the last time you actually posted in the thread. I had no idea how many of the posts from the last post to the current ones at the end of this thread.
2) Therefore, presuming that maybe you had not read "some" of the posts between the last time you posted until now. If you have, I was mistaken.

My intent was not to patronize but to genuinely wanting to give you more time to digest all the posts. It is not my intent to insult or belittle you or your opinions in any way.

If it came across that way, my apologies, please forgive me.


And I answered the exact question you asked.
The question wasn't to you and it was a question specifically in response to his post which was based on a previous post and so forth.
The context of your answer didn't match the context of the original question.

Throughout this thread my questions have been about getting at the mechanics for Limbs.

I'd rather not continue this exchange with you since I can see no constructive purpose. I fear that anything I say might agitate or anger you due to my inability to clearly convey my thoughts. And I don't want to do that.

But thanks for your interest.

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Why? This is entirely legitimate. The essential answer is that virtually nothing, mechanically, like many RPGs. They affect SFX in HERO and environmental interaction. You can design a character without hands and he will perform identically mechanically to a character with hands. Of course, his types of interactions will vary tremendously.
Not it my games! The character with hands can pick things up and manipulate objects. The character without hands can't. Is this brain surgery?

[zornwil]

Not it my games! The character with hands can pick things up and manipulate objects. The character without hands can't. Is this brain surgery?
So a character without hands but with no Disad can't do that? That sounds to me like that's your game, not necessarily orthodox HERO "as is." Can they not use their feet - like some people in real life?

[zornwil]

PS - which is exactly to my point - it's a GM ruling on environmental interaction - and that's your ruling, Phil, as it is left to you. By the strong iimplication of the rules and who controls what via points and declared system mechanics.

[Lucius]

In before the lock.

I'd rep Phil Fleischman if I could :(


You've misunderstood me.

There's a lot of that going around.


I'd rather not continue this exchange with you since I can see no constructive purpose. I fear that anything I say might agitate or anger you due to may inability to clearly convey my thoughts. And I don't want to do that.

But thanks for your interest.

Christopher Mullins

See, this is what my (I was going to say "our" because Mr. Fleischman and I seem to be in agreement, but safer just to speak for myself) problem is -

You pointed out the connection between limbs and Strength. Namely, the fact that most of what one uses a limb for, involves some application of STR.

When I said you were finally making sense, that was actually something of an understatement. What you're saying (in so far as I understand you) is undeniably true, in fact, even obvious - once pointed out. But it was NOT obvious to me UNTIL pointed out. It was not part of my thinking about Extra Limbs. And unless my memory fails me, it was YOU who brought this link between limbs and strength into the discussion.

Now, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I'm not sure what all the implications are, or if there even ARE any useful or meaningful implications. For example, DOES it really make sense to think of it as an "Adder" on STR? Does it matter that SOME uses for limbs DON'T involve exerting strength? (An insubstantial character with no ability to exert even an iota of STR in the game's physical world can still hold up a hand in warning, or use a tentacle to point something out.) But that contribution confirms my impression of you as an intelligent person with useful things to say.

But then I have to reconcile this with you asking a question that I can only understand as meaningful if I assume it's being asked by someone who did not pass 2nd or 3rd grade math - and since I'm sure you did, I'm left staring at something that I simply can't make sense of at all. I guess I have to assume that whatever you were actually trying to ask, you failed to express it successfully.

Rather like that question about "how to get the mechanic for Extra Limbs without having Extra Limbs" or however it went. Both I am Mr. Fleischman gave valid answers to the question you asked, which turned out to be not quite what you meant to ask (leaving aside the fact that you weren't asking it of us.)

And now - IF I understand you, which is a big IF - in one of the grandest examples of thread drift I've seen (and we've all seen some incredible examples of thread drift) you're questioning the whole point-based basis of the Hero system.

Why should I get points for a Berserk that makes me attack my teammate? After all my teammate, who has no Berserk, could just decide to attack me without provocation. Unless the player (as opposed to character) has a mental problem he probably WON'T, but the point is he COULD. Why get points for Code Against Killing? Any character could just decide not to kill in a given circumstance. Why do I have to pay points for my Levinbolt power? After all, you'd take the same damage if you went outside during a storm and were struck by lightning.

Well, in Hero you get points for disadvantages and limitations, and you pay points for abilities. In my opinion, if you don't do that, you're not playing Hero, you're playing something else. Which is fine if that's what you want to do, but I happen to like Hero. So this is as much as I'm going to say on THAT particular topic. As you put it, I "see no constructive purpose."

But I'll stick around hoping you're going somewhere with the idea of limbs as the means of exerting those functions of STR pertaining to grasping, moving, and manipulating things.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary has no limbs, within the meaning of the word as I'm using it. As far as I know. They could be Invisible...

[Lucius]

So a character without hands but with no Disad can't do that? That sounds to me like that's your game, not necessarily orthodox HERO "as is." Can they not use their feet - like some people in real life?

In which case, he's using his feet as hands. He should still get a Disadvantage, because he can only use both feet if he's sitting down.

If he's an elephant, he uses his nose as a hand. He still gets a Disadvantage, because he has only one nose. If he has two, he gets Distinctive Features.

If a player wants a character who has no hands, and does NOT take points for a Disadvantage, and does NOT want to deal with the obvious and inevitable consequences (i.e. take the disadvantage without getting the points for it) needs to come up with some kind of explanation for how they grasp and manipulate objects without having hands. For example, even without paying for Psychokinesis as a power, maybe the character has just enough short range psychokinetic ability to do everything they could do with two hands. But if no such explanation is in concept for the character, and the player insists the character lacks arms, then the player may as well get the points, because he's basically stating that his character has the Disadvantage.

Otherwise, it's like

"I want to be blind. But I still want to see."

"Errr, okay. That's Psych Lim: Delusional." (On either character or player, I'm not sure which yet.....)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is getting a headache at one end...

[schir1964]

In before the lock.
If you think I am going to cause this thread to be locked, then I'll stop posting now. Just say the word.


There's a lot of that going around.
Which simply highlights what I've already said that I have difficulty communicating my ideas and thoughts that makes sense to others.


You pointed out the connection between limbs and Strength. Namely, the fact that most of what one uses a limb for, involves some application of STR.

When I said you were finally making sense, that was actually something of an understatement. What you're saying (in so far as I understand you) is undeniably true, in fact, even obvious - once pointed out. But it was NOT obvious to me UNTIL pointed out. It was not part of my thinking about Extra Limbs. And unless my memory fails me, it was YOU who brought this link between limbs and strength into the discussion.
Well I am pleased that something I've said actually has been useful to someone. I really don't expect to have anyone agree with me anymore in these types of threads. And that's fine. I use these threads to try analyze the system and figure out exactly why something works, is consistent, or doesn't seem to fit with everything else.


Now, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I'm not sure what all the implications are, or if there even ARE any useful or meaningful implications.
Well we seem to be in the same boat.

I started this thread thinking that there might not be anything unique mechanically about Extra Limbs. After a long haul with the help of Hugh, I found that there was one thing that was mechanically unique. But it is somewhat meaningless (only mechanically) without STR. You've mentioned right now another use for Limbs, as a communication aid. Something I hadn't even considered, but something that does have impact in the game, if not specifically as a mechanic. Thanks for that.

Now I go and begin the long haul of trying to design alternatives that may be more consistent and addresses some of the vagueness and contradictions I've mentioned over this thread. Manipulation needs to be addressed better than what the current system does, for those games that require it for the game to actually work. Perhaps treating Limbs as SFX only may not be workable solution, but I'm willing to explore that possibility among others to make the system better.

You'll get to see my pathetic attempts at this soon enough. (8^D)
I tried to create a new thread earlier this day but lost my train of thought.


But then I have to reconcile this with you asking a question that I can only understand as meaningful if I assume it's being asked by someone who did not pass 2nd or 3rd grade math - and since I'm sure you did, I'm left staring at something that I simply can't make sense of at all. I guess I have to assume that whatever you were actually trying to ask, you failed to express it successfully.
Unfortunately, my presumptions tend to blind me to certain facts that may never be realized. It's a process I use to try to make sure I am not taking anything for granted on the subject in order to gather as much of the facts as possible from perspectives of others (who are usually in disagreement with me).

It's a painfully slow and arduous process, but it has always been that way for me. Just look at the Protean Form thread listed in the Thread Linkage thread. That was years ago. Not much has changed as far as the process.


Rather like that question about "how to get the mechanic for Extra Limbs without having Extra Limbs" or however it went. Both I am Mr. Fleischman gave valid answers to the question you asked, which turned out to be not quite what you meant to ask (leaving aside the fact that you weren't asking it of us.)
Obviously a failure to express myself clearly. Also, I try not respond to posts I don't see as constructive but more combative (my perception not others intent). Ends up in too many meaningless derailments. Hugh was taking my posts seriously and progress was being made. Zornwil was helping answer the other posts to my satisfaction even if not in total agreement.


And now - IF I understand you, which is a big IF - in one of the grandest examples of thread drift I've seen (and we've all seen some incredible examples of thread drift) you're questioning the whole point-based basis of the Hero system.
Just some underlying presumptions that up to this point have been accepted as is without analysis, at least by me. So not the whole point-based basis. And maybe the implementation of those presumptions.

I had never questioned what the basis of the Character Disadvantage points were until now. I'm not suggesting that the current Disadvantage system is wrong, just why certain ones work one way and other another way. Sorry if it came across more as an accusation than a simple question. Its that expressing myself poorly again. But after a few posts of others, I see that Character Disadvantages aren't an issue as far as relating to the current discussion, but it could have been.


But I'll stick around hoping you're going somewhere with the idea of limbs as the means of exerting those functions of STR pertaining to grasping, moving, and manipulating things.
Well I'm in the workshop now and we'll see how things progress.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

So a character without hands but with no Disad can't do that? That sounds to me like that's your game, not necessarily orthodox HERO "as is." Can they not use their feet - like some people in real life?

I think this reads in more than is being said: a character with no hands/arms/limbs WOULD be built with a limtiation and it is logical that they should be. If they are not then it is incumbent on the player to explain WHY there is no disadvantage to being limbless, because the system can handle the concept even if logic can't.

I would also argue that you can go the other way: never mind what it is called 'extra limbs' is just a label, you can spend 5 points and get some minor in game advantages, as if you had bought a tiny, limited cosmic VPP. The fact that you have spent the points means you are entitled to some in-game advantage whether it be mechanical or otherwise, just as if you chose to take a disadvantage you will suffer some in-game penalty whether it be mechanical or otherwise, and the advantage or limitation will be proportional to the points.

[zornwil]

In which case, he's using his feet as hands. He should still get a Disadvantage, because he can only use both feet if he's sitting down.

If he's an elephant, he uses his nose as a hand. He still gets a Disadvantage, because he has only one nose. If he has two, he gets Distinctive Features.

If a player wants a character who has no hands, and does NOT take points for a Disadvantage, and does NOT want to deal with the obvious and inevitable consequences (i.e. take the disadvantage without getting the points for it) needs to come up with some kind of explanation for how they grasp and manipulate objects without having hands. For example, even without paying for Psychokinesis as a power, maybe the character has just enough short range psychokinetic ability to do everything they could do with two hands. But if no such explanation is in concept for the character, and the player insists the character lacks arms, then the player may as well get the points, because he's basically stating that his character has the Disadvantage.

Otherwise, it's like

"I want to be blind. But I still want to see."

"Errr, okay. That's Psych Lim: Delusional." (On either character or player, I'm not sure which yet.....)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is getting a headache at one end...
But all this is environmental interaction and whether we want the PC to have a problem without limbs or not. If he wants to be a round rubber ball (and I have a character who is that, as well as a character who is a giant tongue and one who is mostly a male member traveling on related genitalia), but not be disadvantaged, there is no need for a limb in this system. However the player and GM resolve that is up to them. Which is fine with me. But calls into question the manner in which EL has been set up in the system, I would say.

[zornwil]

I think this reads in more than is being said: a character with no hands/arms/limbs WOULD be built with a limtiation and it is logical that they should be. If they are not then it is incumbent on the player to explain WHY there is no disadvantage to being limbless, because the system can handle the concept even if logic can't.

Rather, it is incumbent on them to explain how they function - not "why there is no disadvantage." It is assumed there is no disadvantage unless/until that is clearly desired. Unless of course, the GM declares that any such body type MUST carry a disadvantage, and I have seen at least one GM who would do so. Which, again, is fine. But not mechanically driven.


I would also argue that you can go the other way: never mind what it is called 'extra limbs' is just a label, you can spend 5 points and get some minor in game advantages, as if you had bought a tiny, limited cosmic VPP. The fact that you have spent the points means you are entitled to some in-game advantage whether it be mechanical or otherwise, just as if you chose to take a disadvantage you will suffer some in-game penalty whether it be mechanical or otherwise, and the advantage or limitation will be proportional to the points.

And is exactly my point about how EL should really be a sort of personal body Change Environment (to put it crudely).

[Hugh Neilson]

Rather, it is incumbent on them to explain how they function - not "why there is no disadvantage." It is assumed there is no disadvantage unless/until that is clearly desired. Unless of course, the GM declares that any such body type MUST carry a disadvantage, and I have seen at least one GM who would do so. Which, again, is fine. But not mechanically driven.

By the same token, should a player who designs a Human Torch character whose body is constantly on fire, and who fires flaming energy blasts, be able to say "since I didn't get any points for the possibility my flame powers would ignite flammable materials, I should be able to hold a book in my flaming hands without harming it, and fire my blast through a cloud of methane with no risk of collateral damage"?

I would say that the flame sfx carries these issues with it, and sometimes you also get a benefit from these sfx. I would not say "OK, your flames don't actually behave like fire since you didn't get a limitation".

The limbless character needs to deal with the SFX of being limbless in some fashion. If this disadvantages him, he should take the disadvantage to accurately simulate his character. If it does not disadvantage him, the reasons he is not disadvantaged should be explained.

[Hugh Neilson]

Phil covered a lot of what I would have responded, so I can be brief (closer to brief?). Thanks, Phil!


So are you suggesting that Extra Limbs: Legs will give more lifting and no extra damage? It would be consistent based on your viewpoint above.

Extra limbs provide the advantage of manipulatory limbs, not just appendages. I wouldn't call those legs "extra limbs". The MECHANIC of Extra Limbs does not grant additional strength. If the SFX of these particular Extra Limbs justifies or demands added abilities, such as extra STR or Stretching, these are purchased separately.

I find this is sometimes an issue for new Hero players. Buying a Magnetic Energy Blast and a Magnetic Force Field doesn't grant the ability to move metal objects using magnetism. He has to buy that separately. He doesn't buy "Magnetic Powers". He buys the various powers his magnetic powers should be able to accomplish.

The Extra Limbs mechanic cost 5 points, and grants limited advantages for that 5 point cost. If there are other things your extra limbs, based on their sfx, should do, you buy them separately with their own mechanics.


If there is no association between Extra Limbs and STR, then there is no STR at all for Extra Limbs to use. It doesn't exist under this postulation. So no STR to do anything.

Extra Limbs provide another limb with which to use your existing STR. Stretching provides some range for your existing STR, or for your Damage Shield. Flight or Running allows you to bring your STR to bear at a location which is further away. Many mechanics interact. Overanalyzing that may be fun for you - it just makes me wonder why you play a game that confuses you so.

[zornwil]

By the same token, should a player who designs a Human Torch character whose body is constantly on fire, and who fires flaming energy blasts, be able to say "since I didn't get any points for the possibility my flame powers would ignite flammable materials, I should be able to hold a book in my flaming hands without harming it, and fire my blast through a cloud of methane with no risk of collateral damage"?

I would say that the flame sfx carries these issues with it, and sometimes you also get a benefit from these sfx. I would not say "OK, your flames don't actually behave like fire since you didn't get a limitation".

The limbless character needs to deal with the SFX of being limbless in some fashion. If this disadvantages him, he should take the disadvantage to accurately simulate his character. If it does not disadvantage him, the reasons he is not disadvantaged should be explained.
I think it's a matter of semantics on the last sentence - I flip it around to say not that he has to explain why he's not disadvantaged, rather he merely needs to explain how he basically functions. Naturally, that will facilitate whether he has any "real" Disads, and even if he does, whether those balance out against inherent advantages such that perhaps those Disads are just cancelled out (or you can just make him pay for a Perk and offset). To me, that's an important distinction, as if we say that the player must explain "why he doesn't have a disad" we are out of the gate assuming that a character must conform to some vision of what a PC looks like that is not really embedded in the rules, per se, at all - if we take the divorce of SFX and mechanics seriously.

[schir1964]

I find this is sometimes an issue for new Hero players. Buying a Magnetic Energy Blast and a Magnetic Force Field doesn't grant the ability to move metal objects using magnetism. He has to buy that separately. He doesn't buy "Magnetic Powers". He buys the various powers his magnetic powers should be able to accomplish.
Precisely, which is why I was prompted to ask the question.
You didn't purchased the Power: Magnetic, you purchased the Power: Energy Blast with the SFX of Magnetic. In fact you say you need to purchase all the mechanics that the SFX would suggest. That is why I also asked how many times has Extra Limbs been purchased alone. So most of the time when Extra Limbs is purchased for a SFX it requires other mechanics to be purchased in order to actually get the SFX concept.

Thus the question, Why is Extra Limbs, a SFX (Limbs) concept, purchased as a Power? You don't do that with the SFX (Magnetic), why the SFX (Limbs)? And then the long discussion on what exactly is the mechanic of Extra Limbs.


Extra Limbs provide another limb with which to use your existing STR. Stretching provides some range for your existing STR, or for your Damage Shield. Flight or Running allows you to bring your STR to bear at a location which is further away. Many mechanics interact. Overanalyzing that may be fun for you - it just makes me wonder why you play a game that confuses you so.
Excellent point and one which was also challenged by another poster.
The same logic applies. Limbs are what actually provide the mechanic Reach. If Limbs were a mechanic, it should have the mechanic of "Reach" as one of its benefits.

Thus Stretching should actually be folded into the mechanic of Limbs.
Thanks for reminding me about another piece of the puzzle.

Add one more thing that STR as a default has as a benefit. Since Extra Limbs doesn't provide the Reach Component, they needed to add another SFX driven power, Stretching (Extra Reach). This is now making a lot more sense for the design of the system.

As to you last question, the answer is simple. I have no alternative to turn to. One of my goals is to GM a campaign based on the Well World book series. Only the Hero System has even the remotest chance of simulating that properly. But there are some things in the Hero System that still fall short. So I am analyzing the system to figure out where the gaps are and how they can be shored up.

As I said, this thread wasn't about me convincing anyone how they should interpret or play the system, it was about convincing me that there was an actual need for Extra Limbs as described in the rules. If not then how to handle it with mechanics that exist. If there was a mechanic, does it really do anything useful enough, and is there a better way to handle it.

You've been a great help in this thread, thanks.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

I think it's a matter of semantics on the last sentence - I flip it around to say not that he has to explain why he's not disadvantaged, rather he merely needs to explain how he basically functions. Naturally, that will facilitate whether he has any "real" Disads, and even if he does, whether those balance out against inherent advantages such that perhaps those Disads are just cancelled out (or you can just make him pay for a Perk and offset). To me, that's an important distinction, as if we say that the player must explain "why he doesn't have a disad" we are out of the gate assuming that a character must conform to some vision of what a PC looks like that is not really embedded in the rules, per se, at all - if we take the divorce of SFX and mechanics seriously.
Once again, can't rep you for expressing my thoughts better than I could have.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Precisely, which is why I was prompted to ask the question.
You didn't purchased the Power: Magnetic, you purchased the Power: Energy Blast with the SFX of Magnetic. In fact you say you need to purchase all the mechanics that the SFX would suggest. That is why I also asked how many times has Extra Limbs been purchased alone. So most of the time when Extra Limbs is purchased for a SFX it requires other mechanics to be purchased in order to actually get the SFX concept.

Thus the question, Why is Extra Limbs, a SFX (Limbs) concept, purchased as a Power? You don't do that with the SFX (Magnetic), why the SFX (Limbs)? And then the long discussion on what exactly is the mechanic of Extra Limbs.


Excellent point and one which was also challenged by another poster.
The same logic applies. Limbs are what actually provide the mechanic Reach. If Limbs were a mechanic, it should have the mechanic of "Reach" as one of its benefits.

Thus Stretching should actually be folded into the mechanic of Limbs.
Thanks for reminding me about another piece of the puzzle.

Add one more thing that STR as a default has as a benefit. Since Extra Limbs doesn't provide the Reach Component, they needed to add another SFX driven power, Stretching (Extra Reach). This is now making a lot more sense for the design of the system.

As to you last question, the answer is simple. I have no alternative to turn to. One of my goals is to GM a campaign based on the Well World book series. Only the Hero System has even the remotest chance of simulating that properly. But there are some things in the Hero System that still fall short. So I am analyzing the system to figure out where the gaps are and how they can be shored up.

As I said, this thread wasn't about me convincing anyone how they should interpret or play the system, it was about convincing me that there was an actual need for Extra Limbs as described in the rules. If not then how to handle it with mechanics that exist. If there was a mechanic, does it really do anything useful enough, and is there a better way to handle it.

You've been a great help in this thread, thanks.

- Christopher Mullins
(and thanks for post 161 as well)

Christopher, just a quick mention re mechanical value of EL, you may have missed it in my earlier post, but please note (in what I consider a mistake but that's neither here nor there) the rulebook specifically requires computers buy Extra Limbs if they are to perform any laboratory tasks. I think that's a complete abrogation of how the system works, but, anyway, there is at least that one other specific mechanical requirement for computers.

[schir1964]

Hugh, you may want to visit GIR again to see some of my more ambitious meanderings. Even if it has no interest for you personally, you'll probably find it entertaining. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Rather, it is incumbent on them to explain how they function - not "why there is no disadvantage." It is assumed there is no disadvantage unless/until that is clearly desired. Unless of course, the GM declares that any such body type MUST carry a disadvantage, and I have seen at least one GM who would do so. Which, again, is fine. But not mechanically driven.

I think this may be the heart of our difference, and yet we are oddly close in our approach, in all likelihood.

Limbs are sfx, no limbs is sfx, and whatever way you slice it, I think that you need to have correlation between build and sfx. The thing that makes my blood boil most of all about some characters is the 'taking advantage' of sfx that sometimes occurs by creating sfx that are counter to reasonable expectation.

'No limbs' is sfx, and yes, if you don't take a limitation it is up to you to explain hhow the character functions - or, I would say this is synonymous, just approacjing it from the other side - why there is no disadvantage.

Equally the way in which you justify the character you create should not give you sfx freebies: if a sphere character can manipulate objects by extruding pseudopods or limtied TK then that is not just sfx, it seems to me that is a positive advantage as it will be almost impossible, for example, to bind the character so that they can not usefully interact with their environment. That is not just sfx, that is some sort of additional power, possibly even extra limbs.

If the sphere character just manipulates objects normally 'because the system says he can' then I would not allow it.

I have a similar sort of problem with, for instance, a normal eb defined as a cold attack, but looking exactly like a flame attack. It will confound the expectations of others, and cause them to act in inappropriate ways. This is not clever character design or role playing, this is cheating.

Mechanics are something of a matter of perception in any event. They can be as narrow as modifiers to rolls etc in the system or broad enough to include the mechanical interaction of the character and environment. Again this may just be a semantic difference, but I see no problem with a power straying into this second area and having value thereby.




And is exactly my point about how EL should really be a sort of personal body Change Environment (to put it crudely).

...and kinda exactly mine. Change environment is not a power that works 'mechanically' in many senses, at least in the stricter definition I ganve above. It CAN, and does, to an extent, but it also has significant in-game mechanic element.

You can't really buy extra limbs with CE - the power is probably not geared up right, as it specifically doesn't have a GAME MECHANIC, just an IN-GAME MECHANIC.

Why not think of it this way: Extra Limbs IS a personal body change environment, with a shorthand description and cost. You don't have to call it extra limbs: Change Environment (immediate environmental manipulation) would do. 5 points sounds about right :)

[schir1964]

(and thanks for post 161 as well)

Christopher, just a quick mention re mechanical value of EL, you may have missed it in my earlier post, but please note (in what I consider a mistake but that's neither here nor there) the rulebook specifically requires computers buy Extra Limbs if they are to perform any laboratory tasks. I think that's a complete abrogation of how the system works, but, anyway, there is at least that one other specific mechanical requirement for computers.
I didn't miss it, but it is taken as part of the whole process of "what is limbs?"

Hugh has clearly shown that there is a mechanic that is unique. The implementation is poorly done and forces most purchases to require other mechanics to serve the actual SFX involved. I think there may be a better implementation that may or may not involve a mechanic, but should definately be more consistent and hopefully more flexible.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Just to throw out ideas here, but I can see nothing objectionable in principle to paying for particularly useful sfx, even if they confer no game mechanical advantage at all. Quantification might be a problem, but an in-game advantage is an in-game advantage.

[schir1964]

Just to throw out ideas here, but I can see nothing objectionable in principle to paying for particularly useful sfx, even if they confer no game mechanical advantage at all. Quantification might be a problem, but an in-game advantage is an in-game advantage.
Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with this approach, if implemented properly.

Both Growth and Shrinking are SFX driven compound mechanics. One of the things I'm toying with as an alternative is approaching Limbs in the same manner. But with components easily included/excluded as needed for the SFX involved. This is one thing I don't like about how Growth and Shrinking have been implemented, but they work well enough.

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

I wanted the list of mechanics that Natural Limbs implied via the rules. Just like you listed above for STR. Not for hands, feet, fingers, or toes. There is a difference.
And I've answered that as well. Would you like to respond? To reiterate: the rules do not explicitly spell out the mechanics for natural limbs because they assume that the reader knows what natural limbs do.


Therefore, presuming that maybe you had not read "some" of the posts between the last time you posted until now. If you have, I was mistaken.
Why would you make that assumption? Is that what you do?


The question wasn't to you and it was a question specifically in response to his post which was based on a previous post and so forth.
The context of your answer didn't match the context of the original question.
I read all the posts, and as far as I can tell, my answer did match the context. You asked "how do I build it?" Hugh gave an answer very similar to mine. Did his answer not "match the context"? Then you said that what you meant was, "What are the mechanics?" which is not the same thing as "how to build."


Throughout this thread my questions have been about getting at the mechanics for Limbs.
Allow me to make the assumption that you have some limbs of your own in real life. I would think you'd know what they do. What you actually said in your first post (or one of your first posts), was that Extra Limbs provides no mechanical benefit. The rulebook provides clear examples of benefits under the description of the power.

[PhilFleischmann]

So a character without hands but with no Disad can't do that? That sounds to me like that's your game, not necessarily orthodox HERO "as is." Can they not use their feet - like some people in real life?

[And another post]

But all this is environmental interaction and whether we want the PC to have a problem without limbs or not. If he wants to be a round rubber ball (and I have a character who is that, as well as a character who is a giant tongue and one who is mostly a male member traveling on related genitalia), but not be disadvantaged, there is no need for a limb in this system. However the player and GM resolve that is up to them. Which is fine with me. But calls into question the manner in which EL has been set up in the system, I would say.
Lucius, Hugh, and Sean all beat me to the punch, but just to be clear, I do agree with what they said. As I see it there are only three possibilities:

1) The character has normal limbs like a normal human and can do what a normal human could do with them.
2) The character doesn't have normal limbs and can't do the things a normal human could do with limbs. This character receives a Physical Limitation for the things he can't do.
3) The character doesn't have normal limbs, but can still do all the things a character with normal limbs could do. Since he has lost no functionality, he receives no Disad. The player should explain how he performs Grab maneuvers and manipulates objects without limbs, howerver.

My spherical robot character was an example of case 2. What's the case with your rubber ball character? Can he/it manipulate objects and perform Grabs? If so, how? Can Tongueman dial a cell phone? Can Penisman shuffle a deck of cards? Which of the above three categories do they fall under?

Now that I think of it, I suppose there might be a forth category:

4) The character doesn't have normal limbs and doesn't have the functionality that normal limbs would provide. However, he has something else which the GM deems equal in utility, and therefore is considered a wash, the disadvantage and the advantage balance out - not points spent, no point awarded.

Although I'd think this fourth category a little strange and hard to adjudicate.

If the game is just about characters hitting each other, then yes, limbs don't matter that much, as they can always kick/headbutt/whack each other with their blunt stumps. But in general, I assume that there are non-attack actions in the game that are important, such as cutting the red wire, catching Vera Victim as she falls off the top of the Veritol Building, picking pockets/locks, etc, all of which suggest to me that there is a need for limbs in the system.

And like many other Powers, Extra Limbs is named for its most likely SFX, rather than its exclusive, required SFX. Just like the Darkness Power doesn't have to have the SFX of literal "darkness". If you've got something that functions like normal limbs, but isn't normal limbs, great. If you've got something that functions like extra limbs, but isn't extra limbs, then buy Extra Limbs, but define the SFX however you like.

[PhilFleischmann]

And re: the whole bit about the relationship between Extra Limbs and STR.

What's so special about STR? Why not DEX? After all, you need DEX to perform many (most?) acts with your extra limbs. Picking locks, playing music, attacking,...

And what about other characteristics, such as PD and ED? If you accidentally smash your extra limb with a hammer, do you get your normal PD against the damage? Or if you stick your extra limb in an electrical outlet, do you get to apply your ED?

If you leave your two normal limbs hanging loose at your sides and perform all actions only with your extra limbs, shouldn't you get your normal SPD compliment of phases with which to act?

And if your extra limbs are damaged, don't you still get your REC?

And if you perform strenuous feats with your extra limbs, you'll use your normal END, won't you?

etc.

[zornwil]

I think this may be the heart of our difference, and yet we are oddly close in our approach, in all likelihood.

Limbs are sfx, no limbs is sfx, and whatever way you slice it, I think that you need to have correlation between build and sfx. The thing that makes my blood boil most of all about some characters is the 'taking advantage' of sfx that sometimes occurs by creating sfx that are counter to reasonable expectation.

'No limbs' is sfx, and yes, if you don't take a limitation it is up to you to explain hhow the character functions - or, I would say this is synonymous, just approacjing it from the other side - why there is no disadvantage.

Equally the way in which you justify the character you create should not give you sfx freebies: if a sphere character can manipulate objects by extruding pseudopods or limtied TK then that is not just sfx, it seems to me that is a positive advantage as it will be almost impossible, for example, to bind the character so that they can not usefully interact with their environment. That is not just sfx, that is some sort of additional power, possibly even extra limbs.

If the sphere character just manipulates objects normally 'because the system says he can' then I would not allow it.

I have a similar sort of problem with, for instance, a normal eb defined as a cold attack, but looking exactly like a flame attack. It will confound the expectations of others, and cause them to act in inappropriate ways. This is not clever character design or role playing, this is cheating.

Mechanics are something of a matter of perception in any event. They can be as narrow as modifiers to rolls etc in the system or broad enough to include the mechanical interaction of the character and environment. Again this may just be a semantic difference, but I see no problem with a power straying into this second area and having value thereby.





...and kinda exactly mine. Change environment is not a power that works 'mechanically' in many senses, at least in the stricter definition I ganve above. It CAN, and does, to an extent, but it also has significant in-game mechanic element.

You can't really buy extra limbs with CE - the power is probably not geared up right, as it specifically doesn't have a GAME MECHANIC, just an IN-GAME MECHANIC.

Why not think of it this way: Extra Limbs IS a personal body change environment, with a shorthand description and cost. You don't have to call it extra limbs: Change Environment (immediate environmental manipulation) would do. 5 points sounds about right :)
Yes, don't get me wrong, I do realize CE is not ready/appropriate entirely, I use it purely as an analogue.

Not much to add otherwise - I think you stated well the similarity and difference in approach. Since our conclusions are similar, of course I can comfortably conclude despite those differences you're a pretty bright guy with valuable insight... :D Seriously, yup, basically understand/agree aside from the approach differences. I was thinking of writing up a thread on Bodily Advantaged as a power or such but haven't been able time-wise to spend the time to really suss it out a bit more and make it remotely as workable as CE is (overall, I really like 5th ed. CE, at least its basics, it's easy to modify but clear in intent).

[zornwil]

Just to throw out ideas here, but I can see nothing objectionable in principle to paying for particularly useful sfx, even if they confer no game mechanical advantage at all. Quantification might be a problem, but an in-game advantage is an in-game advantage.
Totally agree. I think the primary goal of a Bodily Advantage power would be to define something along those lines. Not the best example, but let's say I want a 3rd eye in the middle of my forehead...but with no "real" mechanical advantage. Well, any SFX that counters 2 eyes (e.g., a 3 Stooges 2-fingered poke) is countered, and I could imagine all sorts of pretty minor but still real advantages (in addition to, in some settings, Distinctive Features as a Disad). It should have a value - maybe 5 points is too much (if we think an extra limb or 500 are worth 5 points), but still something.

PS - at least if desired outside of already being SFX of a paid-for power with its own benefits that would allow for this sort of fringe value - another consideration for EL or any Bodily Advantage

[zornwil]

And re: the whole bit about the relationship between Extra Limbs and STR.

What's so special about STR? Why not DEX? After all, you need DEX to perform many (most?) acts with your extra limbs. Picking locks, playing music, attacking,...

And what about other characteristics, such as PD and ED? If you accidentally smash your extra limb with a hammer, do you get your normal PD against the damage? Or if you stick your extra limb in an electrical outlet, do you get to apply your ED?

If you leave your two normal limbs hanging loose at your sides and perform all actions only with your extra limbs, shouldn't you get your normal SPD compliment of phases with which to act?

And if your extra limbs are damaged, don't you still get your REC?

And if you perform strenuous feats with your extra limbs, you'll use your normal END, won't you?

etc.
I think STR was an example for just that reason - we could state DEX as easily. A character without fingers and toes would seem rather limited - but if they don't take a Disad in THEORY they have no reason to have dexterity feats limited. I won't go beyond that as then it's full circle and I think we've all exhausted our explanations and opinons, generally, but just to answer my own opinion as to why pick on STR - it's basically just the top of the list of chars and one of the most commonly used ones. But you could substitute DEX as easily. At least from my perspective - schir1964 may have other reasons.

[zornwil]

Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with this approach, if implemented properly.

Both Growth and Shrinking are SFX driven compound mechanics. One of the things I'm toying with as an alternative is approaching Limbs in the same manner. But with components easily included/excluded as needed for the SFX involved. This is one thing I don't like about how Growth and Shrinking have been implemented, but they work well enough.

- Christopher Mullins
I would really go a "fudgier" direction, which is why I cite CE as an example/guideline, since I think, even more than growth/shrinking (as powers, setting aside the natural state issue), extra limbs and similar abilities are versatile constructs that don't match well to mechanics.

[Sean Waters]

.................... Since our conclusions are similar, of course I can comfortably conclude despite those differences you're a pretty bright guy with valuable insight... :D .............................

A great mind seldom differs :D

[zornwil]

What's the case with your rubber ball character? Can he/it manipulate objects and perform Grabs? If so, how? Can Tongueman dial a cell phone? Can Penisman shuffle a deck of cards? Which of the above three categories do they fall under?

Oh, PS, sorry, didn't mean to blow off your questions. These are NPC characters so suffer from less complete definition, I readily admit first. Two of them have served purely as combat villains.

Generally they are not limited, technically, just to allow them to mostly function on their own easily enough. Beach Ball has existed in 2 versions, one which always was basically a big beach ball but with tiny extensions for head and hands, another which can blow up into a ball, so only the former is relevant to the conversation. In essence, his tiny hands could function in the same non-realistic way as MST3K's Tom Servo (I hope you have a clue on that, I guess you could substitute any sort of being in children's or animated or unrealistic/surrealistic fiction that manages to do things despite clearly not seeming physically capable), somehow grasping things even with some sort of unrealistic reach. Cartoon physics, if you will, more out there than superhero physics and even more removed from HERO physics.

Living Tongue and Penishead (despite the name it was his entire body), both designed pretty much purely as villain combat types, were even more vague, though the Living Tongue was easy to rationalize as basically just consider the dexterity of some people's tongues and extrapolate - basically the tissue can wrap and fold and is very flexible. Penishead was pretty much like Aqua Teen Hunger Force, no rhyme or reason but like the characters in that animated show the stuff they manage just shows up next to them, against their ear for a cell phone, next to the body as if held, that sort of thing.

For PCs, we'd define it a lot more clearly - well, generally, anyway, we might leave some mystery elements or supernatural inexplicable things, though even in the latter case there'd be some sort of background explanation that I would do to understand magical and other interactions in the environment.

[schir1964]

And I've answered that as well. Would you like to respond? To reiterate: the rules do not explicitly spell out the mechanics for natural limbs because they assume that the reader knows what natural limbs do.
If they were explicitly spelled out, I wouldn't have asked the question. That was the point. The presumption of the system that a player should implicitly know which mechanics should be used to simulate is something that should have been defined. If they figured that Natural Limbs were just SFX and had no bearing mechanically, then they shouldn't have mentioned them in Sweep and Extra Limbs. Since they did, it begs the question of what exactly do Natural Limbs work mechanically.

Hugh answered it well enough. There are mechanics involved.


Why would you make that assumption? Is that what you do?
Simple, the questions and comments you made didn't seem to be an informed one concerning the information that is in the posts I read. Probably my lack of clear communication again. Par for the course.


I read all the posts, and as far as I can tell, my answer did match the context. You asked "how do I build it?" Hugh gave an answer very similar to mine. Did his answer not "match the context"? Then you said that what you meant was, "What are the mechanics?" which is not the same thing as "how to build."
True, Hugh didn't answer in mechanical way either, and I was disappointed that he didn't, but his posts have not be perceived as combative in nature by myself and we had been in a very civil discussion for a while. I knew I would get an answer from him on the mechanics, so I just took what he gave me and gave another viewpoint to his response. I was in the process of understanding his viewpoint and understand why he thinks it works the way it does.

You and I don't seem to work well together in this manner.


Allow me to make the assumption that you have some limbs of your own in real life. I would think you'd know what they do.
Actually, I didn't know what they did... in the Hero System.
Vehicles don't have limbs, but they use the same mechanics.
Computer don't have limbs, but they use the same mechanics.
AI's don't have limbs.
Automatons may have limbs by default, but it's up in the air on that one.


What you actually said in your first post (or one of your first posts), was that Extra Limbs provides no mechanical benefit. The rulebook provides clear examples of benefits under the description of the power.
Apparently you must have missed all those posts where I said "no unique mechanical benefit".

No point in discussing this further. Everythings already been said and is done.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

And re: the whole bit about the relationship between Extra Limbs and STR.

What's so special about STR? Why not DEX? After all, you need DEX to perform many (most?) acts with your extra limbs. Picking locks, playing music, attacking,...

.

You may have a point about DEX. After all, if your DEX is into a low enough negative, you basically have no controlled motion at all.

The reason I thought STR especially significant is that most of the ways one uses a limb (as we're using the term here) for involves holding or moving something physical. Even flicking a bit of fuzz off the table involves an application of a miniscule amount of STR.

Lucius Alexander

Lifting a palindromedary in one hand

[schir1964]

I think STR was an example for just that reason - we could state DEX as easily. A character without fingers and toes would seem rather limited - but if they don't take a Disad in THEORY they have no reason to have dexterity feats limited. I won't go beyond that as then it's full circle and I think we've all exhausted our explanations and opinons, generally, but just to answer my own opinion as to why pick on STR - it's basically just the top of the list of chars and one of the most commonly used ones. But you could substitute DEX as easily. At least from my perspective - schir1964 may have other reasons.
grumble... rep... grumble.. rep...

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Beach Ball has existed in 2 versions, one which always was basically a big beach ball but with tiny extensions for head and hands, another which can blow up into a ball, so only the former is relevant to the conversation. In essence, his tiny hands could function in the same non-realistic way as MST3K's Tom Servo, somehow grasping things even with some sort of unrealistic reach. Cartoon physics, if you will, more out there than superhero physics and even more removed from HERO physics.

Living Tongue and Penishead (despite the name it was his entire body), both designed pretty much purely as villain combat types, were even more vague, ... Penishead was pretty much like Aqua Teen Hunger Force, no rhyme or reason but like the characters in that animated show the stuff they manage just shows up next to them, against their ear for a cell phone, next to the body as if held, that sort of thing.
Interesting! I've never seen or heard of a HERO game like that before. Usually, you see a lot more verisimilitude in RPGs (even TOON - e.g., needing hands to pick up things). But it's certainly legitimate to do a game like that ATHF HERO, or how 'bout Veggie Tales HERO (they don't have limbs either, the stuff they're holding just floats in front of them.). I never thought of running a game that way before! Just shows how versatile the system is!

MOVIE SIGN!

Edit: BTW, is there any relationship between Living Tongue and Penishead? Am i going to be sorry I asked? Is this thread going to be completely derailed? Locked as a result? :angst:

[PhilFleischmann]

The reason I thought STR especially significant is that most of the ways one uses a limb (as we're using the term here) for involves holding or moving something physical. Even flicking a bit of fuzz off the table involves an application of a miniscule amount of STR.
And in most of the ways one uses a limb, you need a bit of DEX as well.

[zornwil]

Interesting! I've never seen or heard of a HERO game like that before. Usually, you see a lot more verisimilitude in RPGs (even TOON - e.g., needing hands to pick up things). But it's certainly legitimate to do a game like that ATHF HERO, or how 'bout Veggie Tales HERO (they don't have limbs either, the stuff they're holding just floats in front of them.). I never thought of running a game that way before! Just shows how versatile the system is!

MOVIE SIGN!

Edit: BTW, is there any relationship between Living Tongue and Penishead? Am i going to be sorry I asked? Is this thread going to be completely derailed? Locked as a result? :angst:
I really laughed out loud at your last paragraph, thanks! :rofl:

No, no relationship, though now of course I'm very tempted to create one... :eg:

[schir1964]

I would really go a "fudgier" direction, which is why I cite CE as an example/guideline, since I think, even more than growth/shrinking (as powers, setting aside the natural state issue), extra limbs and similar abilities are versatile constructs that don't match well to mechanics.
Never know until one trys, right? (8^D)

As I said, it was one of the possible solutions.

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

The reason I thought STR especially significant is that most of the ways one uses a limb (as we're using the term here) for involves holding or moving something physical. Even flicking a bit of fuzz off the table involves an application of a miniscule amount of STR.

And DEX to target the fuzz

INT to perceive it

PER to not be scared of it [fuzz...brrrr]

PD to not injure your finger on the table

SPD to have an action to flick the fuzz

[schir1964]

Zornwil and Sean,

I need you to check over my posts at GIR when you get time. I'm almost ready to bring my ideas over here for a possible alternative.

- Christopher Mullins

[TheUnknown]

There is an obvious advantage everyone is looking over which is with extra limbs you can have someone/ones grabed and still have limbs left to beat the #$%^ out of them plus to defend yourself without penalty. \

Even more so with the optional rule in 5th that lets you use all your attack powers at once if you can afford the END having extra limbs and multiple martial manuever would allow for a wonderous whipping or brutal beat down by using as many limbs as needed for each move. and with that if you're holding multiple guns and weapons you can use as many as you can have out ie you're a one man army if you have 10 extar limbs and 12 autofire/area effect weapons.

Surely Death and Destruction will Follow!

That's why it's a Power under most circumstances!:dyn

[schir1964]

There is an obvious advantage everyone is looking over which is with extra limbs you can have someone/ones grabed and still have limbs left to beat the #$%^ out of them plus to defend yourself without penalty.
Not really overlooked. If you are talking about Blocking, then you must have a half action left to block or abort the next phase.

Multiple limbs do not automatically grant you extra actions per phase. You may use Autofire, Rapid Attack, Sweep, or Multiple Power Attack get multiple actions per se. And you still suffer the penalties although Extra Limbs is used as a maximum for certain things like Sweep.

Unless I'm missing something.


Even more so with the optional rule in 5th that lets you use all your attack powers at once if you can afford the END having extra limbs and multiple martial manuever would allow for a wonderous whipping or brutal beat down by using as many limbs as needed for each move. and with that if you're holding multiple guns and weapons you can use as many as you can have out ie you're a one man army if you have 10 extar limbs and 12 autofire/area effect weapons.
Which optional rule are referring to?

But this has been discussed somewhat in this thread.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

And DEX to target the fuzz
See below

INT to perceive it
But we're not talking about perceiving it. We're talking about flicking it once it's perceived.

PER to not be scared of it [fuzz...brrrr]
Maybe you're flicking it 'cause your scared of it.

PD to not injure your finger on the table
Not necessarily.

SPD to have an action to flick the fuzz
See below.

The problem with trying to conceptually link Extra Limbs with any and all characteristics is that most of them simply aren't relevant. I can define Extra Limbs as a Fragile Focus meaning it won't have any PD or ED and only one BOD, defined as seperate from the character's BOD.

Note, however, that I can't eliminate the involvement of END by defining the Extra Limbs as Zer0 END. I have to put Zero END on my STRENGTH to use the Extra Limbs without END!

I need DEX to target the fuzz speck, yes. But that is not unique to Extra Limbs: if I were targetting it with an Energy Blast, Telekinesis, or any other physical power capable of effecting it (and most likely ONLY physical powers can effect it; I doubt I can read the mind of a bit of fuzz, or overawe it with a PRE attack) I would need DEX. Again with SPD, I need SPD to do any action whatsoever.

The point about STR and Extra Limbs - or any limbs really- is that STR is both NECESSARY for most use of limbs, and PECULIAR to Extra Limbs in that Extra Limbs is part of a small class of powers that only function in conjunction with STR.

Although, as I said before, I'm not sure where that gets us, if it gets us anywhere.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary grows some more Invisible Extra Limbs. After all, after the first one, the rest are free!

[TheUnknown]

Not really overlooked. If you are talking about Blocking, then you must have a half action left to block or abort the next phase.

Multiple limbs do not automatically grant you extra actions per phase. You may use Autofire, Rapid Attack, Sweep, or Multiple Power Attack get multiple actions per se. And you still suffer the penalties although Extra Limbs is used as a maximum for certain things like Sweep.

Unless I'm missing something.


Which optional rule are referring to?

But this has been discussed somewhat in this thread.

- Christopher Mullins


I'm not saying it gives you extra actions but because you have the limbs you want have the penalties for not having the limbs and abilities to do so.

The optional rule that allows you to use every attack that you can pay End for would allow you to have as many guns(attacks) in hand that you've bought or aquired and then use them!

[GAZZA]

"I want to be blind. But I still want to see."

"Errr, okay. That's Psych Lim: Delusional." (On either character or player, I'm not sure which yet.....)

Sorry, just had to point out - you owe me a Coke, since the above forced me to snort mine through my nose. :)

[Dust Raven]

A character's limbs are a SFX of the character's STR mechanic. At least for the Human Template.

Why then is Extra Limbs a separate Power and not simply SFX?

Have at it ya'll! (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

I looks like I never took part in this discussion. Well, why bother reading all the other posts before I reply? I'll just jump in with...

Because having more than 2 limbs fill fine manipulation is a measurable advantage.

What gets me is why having 3 limbs is a measurable advantage over having 2, but having 3,338,485,343,843 isn't a measurable advantage over having 6.

[schir1964]

Bump.

- Christopher Mullins

[Arac-4105]

I so wanted to be a part of this debate (multi-limb characters are fascinating to me), but I don't think I can make an effective argument without sounding like a total doofus.

Suffice it to say that my opinion is as follows: Limbs are not a special effect. Sure the rules allow characters to be built in a myriad of ways, but there are some assumptions that are made at the start of character creation. One of the central ones is that the character is human in shape: two legs, two arms, one head, one torso & abdomen. Any deviation from that requires some explanation in terms of powers, advantages or disads.

I have no rules mechanics to back this up, this is just how I feel on this subject.

[schir1964]

I so wanted to be a part of this debate (multi-limb characters are fascinating to me), but I don't think I can make an effective argument without sounding like a total doofus.

Suffice it to say that my opinion is as follows: Limbs are not a special effect. Sure the rules allow characters to be built in a myriad of ways, but there are some assumptions that are made at the start of character creation. One of the central ones is that the character is human in shape: two legs, two arms, one head, one torso & abdomen. Any deviation from that requires some explanation in terms of powers, advantages or disads.

I have no rules mechanics to back this up, this is just how I feel on this subject.
Perfectly valid opinion. My question was dealing more with how Extra Limbs is currently defined vs what mechanical areas are covered by the default template.

The default template does grant some minor mechanical effects, but is very vague beyond that.

It was an interesting discussion though.

- Christopher Mullins

[Arac-4105]

Perfectly valid opinion. My question was dealing more with how Extra Limbs is currently defined vs what mechanical areas are covered by the default template.

The default template does grant some minor mechanical effects, but is very vague beyond that.

It was an interesting discussion though.

- Christopher Mullins

Thank you, Mr. Mullins. I believe that the Extra Limbs rules could use some serious attention, and for a more well-thought-out set of mechanics, I recommend reading the GURPS rules, which break things down to Extra Arms, Extra Legs and Extra Heads.

But anyway, it seems everything's been said on this topic for now. I'll let it drop.

[ghost-angel]

Well.. I dunno if it's been pointed out before...

but having Extra Limbs, say 4 Limbs, allows you to grab more than 1 Target at once.

The more limbs, the more Targets. Personally, I would say you need two limbs to easily hold a target of similar size in a Grab Maneuver.

[AnotherSkip]

There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.

Actually there is an in game reason to twist the knife, as an optional manuver in a heroic game it ROCKS!!!!