Suggestions: Ninja illusions

[Elysea]

Copied and pasted from the Rules Clarifications forum...

My ninja would like to be able to create a phantom image of himself, to confuse and distract the enemy in combat.

At first this looks like an Image power, but Images cannot be moved from their creation hex unless bought with a sufficiently large AE. (At least, that is how I interpreted the Image section of the FAQ?) It also takes time and effort to manipulate the Image in any complex fashion; I want the image to just keep acting on its own to create confusion and distraction.

Should this power be bought as Duplication, but with a strong "Phantom" limitation, perhaps worth as much as -1? The duplicate is effectively just an image, unable to inflict damage, and it wouldn't take an enemy long to realize the trickery if he sees his own attacks passing through the target. The duplicate would be, effectively, permanently Desolidified. Or would the Images power, bought with the Uncontrolled advantage or something similar, be more appropriate?

Steve said I interpreted the Images rules more or less correctly, and suggested I think about creating this as some kind of "Confusion and Distraction" Change Environment or some such thing. Anyone have any suggestions? I'm leaning towards the Duplication solution, since I think that offers the most flexibility. -1 seems like an appropriate disadvantage value -- the power is about half as useful as full Duplication.

[Yamo]

Duplication sounds perfect to me.

Just give it Inherent Desolidification (probably affected by magic) and you're good to go. You want easy ranged recombination, too, of course.

Good thinking.

[Elysea]

I didn't really want to give the dupe Desolidification since the ninja himself doesn't have Desolidification. Basically, the duplicate should just be able to mimic powers the ninja has.

Good suggestion on the magic -- swords, bullets, etc. would pass right through the dupe, but he would have 1 stun, 1 body versus magic attacks, and they would hit him as normal.

I'd rather buy the power as Duplication and apply the -1 Phantom limitation to it, then explain the whole thing to the GM and get his approval, without having to write up a whole character sheet for the duplicate, buy Desolidification for him, make him vulnerable to magic, balance out all the points, so on and so on and so on... Much easier to just talk with the GM, work out the understanding that the dupe is just a trick of light and sound, slap on the -1 Disadvantage, and deal with any details if they come up in combat. But then again, I'm pretty lazy. =]

[Yamo]

I'd rather buy the power as Duplication and apply the -1 Phantom limitation to it, then explain the whole thing to the GM and get his approval, without having to write up a whole character sheet for the duplicate, buy Desolidification for him, make him vulnerable to magic, balance out all the points, so on and so on and so on... Much easier to just talk with the GM, work out the understanding that the dupe is just a trick of light and sound, slap on the -1 Disadvantage, and deal with any details if they come up in combat. But then again, I'm pretty lazy.

I see your reasoning...BUT: You'd essentially then be buying an altered Duplicate with Inherient Desolidification as a -1 Limitation!

The Duplicate has, for virtually all intents and purposes, Inherent Desolid, but you're essentially getting points for it instead of paying points for it.

It's a little bass-ackwards balance-wise. :)

If you want the Duplicate's intangability to be more limited than normal, buy it Desolid and model it with a Limitation on that specific Power, not on the whole Duplication.

[Elysea]

Well, if I go that route...

I buy Desolid at its appropriate cost.

I buy down Stun and Body, and Str and Ego and Con and everything else. Maybe keep the Dex at my own level so it can move like I do (Dex 1s don't make good ninjas).

I take away its power of speech (it's just an illusion, it can't communicate).

I maybe buy one or two martial maneuvers for it, for imitation purposes, but overall I buy the duplicate's martial skills way down.

So on and so on... There are all kinds of point savings to be had. I'm sure I could buy the duplicate's abilities down to the point where the value of the -1 Phantom limitation becomes roughly equatable.

Don't have my book in front of me -- are there penalties for making a "duplicate" so radically different from the original?

Alternately, I could buy this power as a Summon and then really have fine control over the "duplicate's" exact abilities and skills, and take the appropriate loyalty advantages and whatnot... So much work though! :)

[Mancer]

I suggest bypassing the whole duplication/Images thing all together. If the purpose of the "phantom" duplicates is to make it less likely the character will be hit, perhaps all you need is + CSLs with DCV (i.e., opponents distracted with attacking phantoms makes it less likely the Ninja himself will be hit).

If the phantom Ninjas distract opponents from attacking the Ninjas firends as well, perhaps you may want to look at Change Environment or AE Penalty Skill Levels (Selective?) as a possible way to reflect the FX you want (A CE or PSLs with -OCV). Perhaps a succesful INT Roll using the Images guidelines could free the Ninjas opponents from the effects of the "phantoms" if you want them to be able to "see through" them eventually.

Anyway, just a couple of of the top of my head suggestions...hope you find them useful.

MANCER

[Doug Limmer]

If the 'images' are radically different from yourself, perhaps Summon would be a better power.

I'd ask, though, what is it you're trying to get out of the images? Perhaps the effect can be simulated by something as simple as DCV levels.

Edit: or, you could look at what Mancer said, too.

[Mancer]

I'd ask, though, what is it you're trying to get out of the images? Perhaps the effect can be simulated by something as simple as DCV levels.

I agree with Doug 100% :)


MANCER

[Elysea]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not just trying to make my ninja more difficut to hit though, so DCV skill levels aren't really the way to go. I want the illusion to operate fairly independently, I want opponents to think he's real and waste time and evergy shooting at him or trying to avoid his attacks (though of course, getting "hit" by one of the phantom's attacks would blow the illusion right out of the water, but they don't know that :)).

"Summon: Phantom Ninja" may be the route to go after all...

[Elysea]

I suppose I'm forgetting one of the cardinal rules. "If you don't want to do a lot of math, don't play Champs." :)

I really wanna go home and create a comic-relief brigade of incompetent Dex 1 ninjas now...

[TaxiMan]

How does the phantom work? Will it record on videotape? Is it a hologram, or a Jedi trick? If it's a Jedi trick & won't record on videotape, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Mental Illusion.

[Talon]

What's wrong with just buying the area way up? Add UAA, Self Only so the area moves with the character (decoy can't get more than X inches from the character). Since I assume the character needs LOS to control the decoy, this seems reasonable -- and from having used this kind of effect in the past, the cost is not out of line.

If the phantom effectively runs itself, then Duplication makes more sense, though it means if someone manages to kill the phantom, it's gone for good. So...use Summon. :)

[Elysea]

The phantom is basically a magical hologram. It can be seen and heard, but not felt. Smell and taste... Smell yes, taste probably no.

Summon is really looking like the way to go. That'll probably make it cheaper too, I'm sure I can build a phantom ninja on a handful of points... I'd like to be able to control the phantom, as a player, to decide what the phantom does and when he does it. I would also like to both have my cake and consume it though, so I'm used to disappointment. I may have to give up the dream of controlling the phantom if I buy it through Summoned, but I think it's the most cost-effective option and closest to what I want to achieve effect-wise.

[Talon]

If you can control it, can you send it out as a scout? Does it have intelligence?

[Elysea]

It has *rudimentary* intelligence. Once summoned, it knows friend from foe and will work to create as much of a distraction away from the ninja and his allies as he can. The phantom could not, however, walk through the walls of a warehouse, scout out enemy positions, and then come back and tell us all about them. The phantom's sort of like a living smoke bomb, I guess you could say.

Besides, if I were a ninja who had to rely on his summoned phantom ninja to do all his scouting... I'd be applying to join the Dex 1 ninjas. =]

[Elysea]

I might buy the Summon with a 1 Continuous Charge, now that I think about it. Make the focus a smoke bomb, he casts a spell and the smoke comes "alive" for 5 minutes to do the phantom thing. That would make it a once a day/adventure kind of thing, or I could bump it up to 2-3 charges.

[Talon]

Does sound like more and more of a Summon to me. You could use Mind Link to control it if you wanted.

[Elysea]

I'll probably just buy it with a reasonable Intelligence and a nice high Tactics skill so it can act on its own.

Think I need the Imitation or Disguise skills or anything to make the phantom believably "me?" Or can I scoot it in with the special effect of the power? GM's option?

[CorpCommander]

Instead of trying to use powers to work the special effect, why not use powers to create the primary effect. What I mean by this is the imaginary ninja isn't doing anything. Just like the blue in superman's spandex doesn't do anything - it's just the special effect.

If the point of the effect is to distract so that you are harder to hit (more choices) buy more defense and activate it with this special effect.

If the point is for the enemy to target something else other than you so you can do your Ninja mamba-jamba sneaking around then perhaps buy it as a form of flash.

My usual method for creating a character is to come up with the character concept like you have but to then look at the concept through the rules instead of from the concept to the rules. I always assume that whatever I have in my concept is simply a special effect unless proven otherwise.

Good luck, sounds like a fun character!

[Chris Goodwin]

If I were the GM, I'd say just do it. Might be a 0 phase action to move your Images around, equivalent to dropping it and recreating it elsewhere. If you really need a rule to let you do it, take a look in the FAQ under Clairsentience.

[Snarf]

Summon sounds good if the illusion has independance and thinks for itself. If you wanted it to be more like the images power and just a trick, like how it appears in most shows, mental illusions would be a lot less work.

Phantom Duplicates: Mental Illusions 12d6 (60 Active Points); Self Only (-1), Set Effect: Duplication ( -1), Limited: Does Not Affect Touch (-1/2). Real Cost: 17 points.

But it sounds like it would be better for you to do it as a summon instead.

[Elysea]

If I went the Mental Illusions route... Self-only wouldn't apply, would it? I'm trying to make other people see the illusion, not myself. I could get around this with Area Effect: One Hex, No Range, and one level of Mega-Scaling -- that would let me project the illusion into the mind of anyone I had LOS on when I cast the spell. Kinda twinky to take that route to achieve combat-wide AE, but the GM might allow it.

Not a bad idea... But then it wouldn't work on automotons. <shrug>

Thanks for the suggestion archer. You're right, sometimes GMs can be uncharacteristically generous. ;)

Summon's probably the way to go. More "fire and forget" than illusions, no hassle about moving the illusion around. I suppose, if I really wanted to control the phantom ninja, I could buy its EGO down to zero, and then buy 1d6 of Mind Control with a Only To Control Phantom limitation. Probably a little more plausible to just buy the +1 loyalty advantage though on Summon though... In that case, the GM would probably just let me control the phantom.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. :)

[Snarf]

Just FYI, Self Only seems to work a little differently with Mental Illusions. In this case, as per the mental disguise example spell in the sidebar, it means that you can only affect your own appearance.

But, yeah, it wouldn't work on automatons, cameras, and such. Plus, you would always have to worry about breakout rolls. The summon is way more reliable, especially if your GM will be nice enough to not have enemies attack them with ego attacks and stuff.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Its not too expensive either.

Buy your normal Images power, and apply 1 level of Megascale advantage. This way your illusory Ninjas can move around in an area akin to about 4km radius or so. :)

Then apply the Continuous advantage to the power. This way once you activate the power, it requires no input from you to change drastically, as per the FAQ. This way the images can react to whatever changes occur within the environment without input on your part.

In anycase, you might want to ask Steve about the effects of Continuous applied to Images in regard to changing the illusion drastically. Applying continuous should also remove any sort of active control issue relating to the power. (once a continuous power is activated, it no longer requires any sort of attention by its originator)

Does that work for you?

Certainly a lot cheaper than Summon or Duplication with Desolid...:D

[Elysea]

Continuous converts an Instant power to a Constant power. Images is already Constant, so there's no need for the Continuous advantage.

But yeah, the Megascaling is good for increased movement range. Uncontrolled is the advantage you're probably thinking of in place of Continuous. Quoting 5e:

"A Constant Power with this Advantage can maintain itself without conscious thought from its user."
"Once a character has set up an Uncontrolled Power, he's not restricted in any way." My ninja could lose LOS with the phantom ninja without the phantom disappearing; he could even get Stunned or Knocked Out and the phantom would keep going.

Sooo.....

Image: Sight and Hearing groups: 15 pts.
Megascale (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) [image is instantly disspelled by any magic attack or wind attack].
15 x 1.75 = 26pts Active Cost
No Range (-1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4) [magic ninja smoke bombs!]
26 / 2.75 = 9pts.

The issue at that point becomes how complexly a phantom ninja can behave if the real ninja becomes unconscious. An Uncontrolled Image of a table could it there and be a table just fine if I went unconscious, but a combat-able ninja illusion is a different matter.

So, this might be the setup to go with, given the GM's understanding that I'm paying the Uncontrolled advantage cost in order to be able to rearrange my images as a zero-phase action, and that the phantom ninjas can continue to attack and move themselves around normally even without LOS from me (as I make my escape across the rooftops!).

Seems pretty balanced to me, given the fact that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the phantom ninjas are just phantoms after a phase or two.

[Snarf]

Image: Sight and Hearing groups: 15 pts.
Megascale (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) [image is instantly disspelled by any magic attack or wind attack].
15 x 1.75 = 26pts Active Cost
No Range (-1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4) [magic ninja smoke bombs!]
26 / 2.75 = 9pts.
If your using magic smoke bombs you could probably also use focus if you wanted. You could also get set effect if it can only make self duplicates.

Don't forget to buy the user's INT good and high, since an INT roll is required to precisely copy something.

That must be the cheapest way to do it, as long as the GM approves the megascaling.

[Crimson Arrow]

I could be wrong, but does Continuous have any application to Summon? I thought that once Summoned, the creature (phantom ninja, whatever), hung around until dispelled or killed. Perhaps the phantom ninja has a Physical Limitation that it "dies" after 5 minutes - that seems better than making the real ninja buy Dispel.

Sorry if I've got this wrong, though.

I would go with Summon, as it has a better feel than Images for this power, although Images would be OK too.

I think the Summon could actually be pretty cheap. The phantom has very low Characteristics (negligible STR, CON, BODY and STUN, low INT), permanent Desolidification (affected by magic) and maybe a few skills such as Stealth. You might need to consider how Mental Powers affect the phantom, though.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Elysea
Continuous converts an Instant power to a Constant power. Images is already Constant, so there's no need for the Continuous advantage.

But yeah, the Megascaling is good for increased movement range. Uncontrolled is the advantage you're probably thinking of in place of Continuous. Quoting 5e:

"A Constant Power with this Advantage can maintain itself without conscious thought from its user."
"Once a character has set up an Uncontrolled Power, he's not restricted in any way." My ninja could lose LOS with the phantom ninja without the phantom disappearing; he could even get Stunned or Knocked Out and the phantom would keep going.

Sooo.....

Image: Sight and Hearing groups: 15 pts.
Megascale (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) [image is instantly disspelled by any magic attack or wind attack].
15 x 1.75 = 26pts Active Cost
No Range (-1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4) [magic ninja smoke bombs!]
26 / 2.75 = 9pts.

The issue at that point becomes how complexly a phantom ninja can behave if the real ninja becomes unconscious. An Uncontrolled Image of a table could it there and be a table just fine if I went unconscious, but a combat-able ninja illusion is a different matter.

So, this might be the setup to go with, given the GM's understanding that I'm paying the Uncontrolled advantage cost in order to be able to rearrange my images as a zero-phase action, and that the phantom ninjas can continue to attack and move themselves around normally even without LOS from me (as I make my escape across the rooftops!).

Seems pretty balanced to me, given the fact that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the phantom ninjas are just phantoms after a phase or two.

Yes, yes.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say, I just wrote down the wrong advantage (Continuous, instead of Uncontrolled)