Adding Damage Question

[Dust Raven]

Well, why not? Nobody understands adding damage completely... :rolleyes:

Anyway, what I have before me is a character with a 20 STR, Martial Maneuvers (+2d6 and +4d6) and a HA +4d6 x2 KB.

How much damage does she do with each maneuver, and how much can she do and have it still be x2 KB?

Depending on the answers, she may eventually end up with a Multipower of HAs with Advantages, such as Armor Piercing, Autofire, AoE, etc.

[Sean Waters]

STR is base damage, manaouvres are not, HA is, so you have 8d6 base damage and 2 or 4 added dice from manouvres, potentially.

As to the double KB, well, no question that the advantage is imputed fro strength, so you can certainly have 8d6 double KB.

The rules say that damage from martial arts is not affected by advantages, so long as the base attack has the advantage then so does the martial manouvre.

Arguably therefore you can do 12d6 double KB. It depends whether you consider the (STR+HA) to be an attack with an advantage, or a special case. I'm not sure the rules are terribly clear on this and I have not checked the FAQ.

Alarm bells ringing. To much free advantage, IMO, for too little cost.

[CraterMaker]

4d6 for the strength, plus 2 or 4 more for the martial art
OR
2d6 double Knockback for the strength,plus 2 or 4d6 double Knockback for the martial art, plus 4d6 double knockback for the HA

I think.

It IS fuzzy, eh?

-CraterMaker

[Hyper-Man]

What Sean said.

Average KB will actually be 13-14" even after factoring in the extra dice vs. MA KB. Base End will only be 5 unless using Heroic rules. Extra MA DC's add straight keeping the x2KB without increasing the END.

[Dust Raven]

No doubt if this character gets a 12d6 attack with x2 KB (a 105 active point attack) from this arrangement, that's too much of a freebie. Can't do it.

Okay, what I want is a character that knows martial arts (but not necessarily Martial Arts Maneuvers, though I think things like Martial Throw and Flying Dodge will be appropriate for this character), and can do some really spiffy tricks. One trick is a punch that causes the target to fly violently away from them (hence the x2KB mechanic). I want to the character to be able to hit hard enough to smack people around for 12d6 normal damage, and do around 8d6 with these tricks (might also include AF, AP, AoE and others at some point). How should I put this together that is 1) rules legal (or at least mostly legal) and 2) not abusive?

[Sean Waters]

Well you can always buy extra dice of damage limited to only causing KB, which I'd probably peg at around -1. Much more controllable than double KB.

Then buy:

4d6 HA (13 points) with the limits does not cause damage if used for increased KB attack (-0), and HA (-1/2), PLUS
+5d6 HA (10 points) HA (-1/2), only causes KB (-1_

Then you can do a 12d6 punch or a 8d6 punch with an additional 9d6 for KB purposes for the same cost. Possibly run afoul of DC or AP limtis, but I'll leave you to sort that one out.

[Zed-F]

What I've seen others say is that yes, according to the rules, damage from the max attack described does in fact stack to 12d6 x2KB HA. However, they've implemented a house rule that says no advantaged HA can ever more than double its base dice, regardless of the source of the extra DCs.

So by this house rule, a 4d6 x2KB HA can be doubled to an 8d6 x2KB HA by some combination of Strength, Martial Arts, velocity damage, stretching, growth momentum, etc... but not more than doubled. I like this house rule and think it makes sense for superheroic games, and it certainly simplifies things. For heroic level games I might even be more strict and enforce prorating for advantaged HAs, similar to what is done for HKAs.

Frankly, though, the whole adding damage ruleset is a morass and seriously needs to be rewritten for simplicity and consistency. Advantaged vs. not, HKA vs HA, martial maneuvers, martial DCs, velocity, stretching, growth momentum, and more, and they all behave differently from one another. Perhaps it'll get fixed in 6th edition.

[Dust Raven]

I think I like that house rule and may impliment it. This is for a public writeup though, so I'm aiming for standard rules, or as close to them as possible (the character is a member of the Scarlet Shield, a team of supers I'm creating a website for (scarletshield.com), and I'm putting up character sheets. I suppose I could include a note on the character sheet, or place a -0 Lim on the HA stating it cannot more than double effect with the Advantage, but adds normally otherwise).

[CraterMaker]

Hmm I like that house rule too.. >Swipe<

Heres a trick -

35 Reverse Chi: Dispel 10d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), [two powers] simultaneously- Strength and any MA manuever (+1/2) (52 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

Actually, I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the ramifications of Reverse Chi.. I know you can abort it as a defensive action and not have to roll an OCV vrs DCV Attack Roll, that if you didn't roll over active points for str you'd still take the str damage, but the MA manuever would be auto dispelled for that phase.. I'd make them have to dispel the MA manuever Plus whatever DC's they'd bought..

I wouldn't necessarily allow it into my game without a big hairy eyeball on what it would do to the game, but it's kinda cool...

And if you're DC cap is going to be 12, I wouldn't think having some 8d6 advantaged powers would be disallowed..



-CraterMaker

[CraterMaker]

Ahh never mind.. Dispel shouldn't be used for stats, skills, etc...

Still, You could build it as
20d6 dispel, any single Martial Art Power, Does Knockback, No Range, Requires a MA Skill Roll..

It would work fine against powers bought as Martial Arts Tricks..

-CraterMaker

[pinecone]

No doubt if this character gets a 12d6 attack with x2 KB (a 105 active point attack) from this arrangement, that's too much of a freebie. Can't do it.

Okay, what I want is a character that knows martial arts (but not necessarily Martial Arts Maneuvers, though I think things like Martial Throw and Flying Dodge will be appropriate for this character), and can do some really spiffy tricks. One trick is a punch that causes the target to fly violently away from them (hence the x2KB mechanic). I want to the character to be able to hit hard enough to smack people around for 12d6 normal damage, and do around 8d6 with these tricks (might also include AF, AP, AoE and others at some point). How should I put this together that is 1) rules legal (or at least mostly legal) and 2) not abusive?

Put a lim on the HA: Cannot add manuever damage -1/4 to - 1/2....?

[pinecone]

Just more blathering....so far I have not found the damage add rules Hard. But I sometimes don't like the answers, like this circumstance.

I like the proposed "house rule" as it follows the well known "meta rule" that all mods cannot more than double the damage. Hardly an absolute rule, but it will likely serve the purpose.

I generally use a "soft cap" on damage, so I'd just ask the player to tone it down and leave it up to them as to how, offering suggestions only if asked.

I usually explain the damge rules as STR is cake, and MA's is the frosting....so take your damge, add the cake (no more than the damage, otherwise "too much cake") then put on the frosting.....the house rule looks to be the cake and the frosting can't be more than the meal.......

[Dust Raven]

I usually explain the damge rules as STR is cake, and MA's is the frosting....so take your damge, add the cake (no more than the damage, otherwise "too much cake") then put on the frosting.....the house rule looks to be the cake and the frosting can't be more than the meal.......

That's an interesting way to put it. :) Now I know how to have my cake and do double KB with it too! :cool:

[Dust Raven]

Put a lim on the HA: Cannot add manuever damage -1/4 to - 1/2....?
I'm putting the "lim" at -0 because I can add it to everything, it's just that if I want the use any Advantages on the HA, I can't more than double it.

[Lord Liaden]

The rules say that damage from martial arts is not affected by advantages, so long as the base attack has the advantage then so does the martial manouvre.

Hmm... I'm not sure if 5ER has changed this, but my FREd and UMA seem to contradict this point. FREd p. 272, in the "Adding Damage" section, states: "If a character has bought an Advantage for his STR without buying the same Advantage for an attack he adds damage to with STR, the Advantage does not apply to the attack at all (not even to the damage dice added by STR). It only applies to the damage done by the character's STR when he uses STR by itself."

From UMA chapter on "Power Advantages For Martial Arts," p. 104: "characters must purchase each martial Advantage separately - a character cannot buy a +1/2 Armor Piercing Advantage for his base STR and apply it to all of his Martial Maneuvers. That Advantage affects the character's basic Strike maneuver, but not his Martial Maneuvers."

[Hyper-Man]

Hmm... I'm not sure if 5ER has changed this, but my FREd and UMA seem to contradict this point. FREd p. 272, in the "Adding Damage" section, states: "If a character has bought an Advantage for his STR without buying the same Advantage for an attack he adds damage to with STR, the Advantage does not apply to the attack at all (not even to the damage dice added by STR). It only applies to the damage done by the character's STR when he uses STR by itself."

From UMA chapter on "Power Advantages For Martial Arts," p. 104: "characters must purchase each martial Advantage separately - a character cannot buy a +1/2 Armor Piercing Advantage for his base STR and apply it to all of his Martial Maneuvers. That Advantage affects the character's basic Strike maneuver, but not his Martial Maneuvers."

Very wonky stuff,

Here's a test.

What happens if you build a character with...
A HA with IPO.
IPO as a naked advantage on his STR.
Martial Arts manuevers without IPO.The rules are contradictory on this. HA rules say that advantages apply to STR and MA maneuvers (except that in the case of IPO ,STR must also have IPO). However, they don't say anything about the combination of all 3.

[pinecone]

I thik he's right about the MA...both your examples are specific to advantaged STR, and thats pretty wonky in it's self, so it deserved extra talking about.

Just for fun, try building a char with BOECV on his STR. It's wayyyy scaaary!

Shoot add in Does Bod as well, it's not like you'll ever get to play him anyway..

[SCUBA Hero]

When Dust Raven is stumped on a rules question, something is wrong!

(That is, I agree that the adding damage rules could use some polishing.)

[Vondy]

Well, why not? Nobody understands adding damage completely... :rolleyes:

Anyway, what I have before me is a character with a 20 STR, Martial Maneuvers (+2d6 and +4d6) and a HA +4d6 x2 KB.

How much damage does she do with each maneuver, and how much can she do and have it still be x2 KB?

Depending on the answers, she may eventually end up with a Multipower of HAs with Advantages, such as Armor Piercing, Autofire, AoE, etc.

Adding damage is Hero's proverbial sticky wicket.

As the rules stand now (5ER): 12d6 X2 KB.

And I note that the UMA quote above is specific to Advantages purchased for a Martial Maneuver, not Advantages purchased for Strength or HA to which the manuever might be applied.

12d6 X2KB on the cheap no less. I assume that's your concern - that the adding damage rules are unbalanced, and are therefore definably "wonky"?

If so, one option would be to purchase the X2 KB as a naked advantage with appropriate limitations applied, or to apply "cannot be used with damage classes from martial maneuvers."

On the other hand, I'm generally wary of advantages and limitations based on the metaphysics of the system rather than the effects of the ability. Another option is to simply not use the martial attack with this ability (not ones forcing you).

Personally, the adding damage rules are like quicksand. If you struggle you get sucked under.

[braincraft]

It's odd to think that it might be technically valid to buy a +1d6 AVLD (Power Defense, or whatever) Does Body Autofire (x10) Armor Piercing Penetrating BOECV AoE One Hex Selective Megascale (1"=1km) Personal Immunity Invisible Power Effects (Total) Affects Desolid (Any Desolid) 0 END HA, and apply the same advantages to 1 point of Strength, as well as an arbitrary number of additional DCs with your martial arts (say, 10), doing 11d6+1 Normal Damage as many as ten times to every target of your choosing within a klick, evaded only through ECV, resisted only by half of Power Defense or something similarly rare, and breaking through even then barring extremely unlikely investment in such; all this utterly without effort, visible or otherwise. For the low, low cost of 82 character points, plus whatever you spent on martial maneuvers (probably the bare minimum, so 10).

Then, with the rest of your points, you could buy 50 OCV levels with the attack, and enough Spatial Awareness to tell friend from foe.

Proceed to annhilate EVERYONE with your psychic mutant cyborg magic ninja chi-strike of DOOM.

[SCUBA Hero]

Anyway, what I have before me is a character with a 20 STR, Martial Maneuvers (+2d6 and +4d6) and a HA +4d6 x2 KB.

How much damage does she do with each maneuver, and how much can she do and have it still be x2 KB?Upon re-reading the 5ER adding damage section:

1) 20 STR (base damage) +2d6 Maneuver = 6d6

2) 20 STR (base damage) + 4d6 Maneuver = 8d6

3) 20 STR (base damage) +4d6 HA X2 KB (also base damage, see 'Determining The Base Damage' and example on 5ER p.405) + 2d6 Manuever = 10d6 X2 KB (damage bonuses from Haymakers, Martial Maneuvers, and Combat Skill Levels are not affected by Advantages, 5ER p.407)

4) 20 STR (base damage) +4d6 HA X2 KB + 4d6 Maneuver = 12d6 X2 KB (same reasoning as in 3)

Note that the HA cannot be used without the Power Advantage (5ER, p.246), so the character cannot deliver a 9d6 - 12d6 non X2 KB attack.

[edit]

I see Sean Waters figured this out eleven days ago... :doi: oh, well...

[edit]

[SCUBA Hero]

Okay, what I want is a character that knows martial arts (but not necessarily Martial Arts Maneuvers, though I think things like Martial Throw and Flying Dodge will be appropriate for this character), and can do some really spiffy tricks. One trick is a punch that causes the target to fly violently away from them (hence the x2KB mechanic). I want to the character to be able to hit hard enough to smack people around for 12d6 normal damage, and do around 8d6 with these tricks (might also include AF, AP, AoE and others at some point). How should I put this together that is 1) rules legal (or at least mostly legal) and 2) not abusive?How about:

* 20 STR (assuming you want to keep the character's STR at 20)

* +2d6 HA X2 KB (or whatever other Advantage(s) you want)

* +4d6 HA

* +2d6 and +4d6 Maneuvers

That way, the character can use 10 STR +2d6 HA X2 KB + 4d6 Maneuver for 8d6 X2 KB, or 20 STR +4d6 HA +4d6 Maneuver for 12d6.

[That build assumes, of course, that I'm reading the rules correctly. I'd ask Steve for clarification...]

[Dust Raven]

How about:

* 20 STR (assuming you want to keep the character's STR at 20)

* +2d6 HA X2 KB (or whatever other Advantage(s) you want)

* +4d6 HA

* +2d6 and +4d6 Maneuvers

That way, the character can use 10 STR +2d6 HA X2 KB + 4d6 Maneuver for 8d6 X2 KB, or 20 STR +4d6 HA +4d6 Maneuver for 12d6.

[That build assumes, of course, that I'm reading the rules correctly. I'd ask Steve for clarification...]

That's brilliant!!! And I can just put those two HA in a Multipower (I already have a multipower, so I can put them in there). I'd rep you but I've already repped you for a previous post in this thread.

Thanks!

[Zed-F]

The thing to watch out for is your power level relative to other characters, because while 8d6 x2KB and 12d6 attacks are probably not unbalanced, you are probably paying WAY less for them than your teammates are paying for similar DC attacks. Consider that your main attack powers are 20 AP before frameworks and limitations, while if a blaster wants to have equivalent attacks he's looking at paying for a 60+ AP power framework. To what use will the points you save be put, more main course, or trimmings? :)

[Dust Raven]

The thing to watch out for is your power level relative to other characters, because while 8d6 x2KB and 12d6 attacks are probably not unbalanced, you are probably paying WAY less for them than your teammates are paying for similar DC attacks. Consider that your main attack powers are 20 AP before frameworks and limitations, while if a blaster wants to have equivalent attacks he's looking at paying for a 60+ AP power framework. To what use will the points you save be put, more main course, or trimmings? :)
I've taken this into account, and there isn't much of a price difference. The slots are going into an existing MP with 60 point powers. At best they'll save one point after Limitations.

[Zed-F]

In that instance, all is well. :)

[SCUBA Hero]

Dust Raven,

Additional thoughts on the build:

Due to the Martial Maneuver, the character's 8d6 X2 KB attack will do, on average, 8(2) - 3 (3.5) = 5.5" of KB.

The character's 12d6 attack will do, on average, 12 - 3(3.5) = 1.5" of KB.

By comparison, a (non-Martial) 12d6 attack will do, on average, 12 - 2(3.5) = 5" of KB.

Assuming that's what you're comparing to (a big if!), then the character's 'get away from me!' punch is only slightly better at KB than a 'normal' (non-Martial 12d6) attack, while doing significantly less damage.

As an alternate, you could buy a 4d6 X2 KB HA and limit it so that it can't be used with Martial Maneuvers. This would give 8(2) - 2(3.5) = 9" of KB on average.

Note that for other Advantages, the +2d6 HA still works fine - it's the extra die rolled for Knockback with a Martial Maneuver that trips this up.