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Demonsong

Jun 20th, '03, 01:34 PM

The Colossus Effect?

I am trying to rip off the whole Colossus character for my campaign, with a twist. So I want your input on how to duplicate his armored skin. And the advantages that go with it.
Is this how you would do it? What would you add? What would you change?

Armor PDr? EDr?
+1/4 Hardened
-1/4 Visible (Armored Skin)
-1/4 Requires Activation END
-1/2 Full Phase to activate

Increased STR+?
-1/2 Linked to Armor

Increased PER+?
-1/2 Linked to Armor

KB Resistance -?
-1/2 Linked to Armor

LS: Safe environment: Cold, Hot, Pressure, Vacuum
-1/2 Linked to Armor

Thanks

Derek Hiemforth

Jun 20th, '03, 01:36 PM

Force Field, because he turns it on and off. The fact that it looks metallic is just special effect, and doesn't make it Armor. (IMO, of course. :) )

JmOz

Jun 20th, '03, 01:40 PM

Except he keeps it when KO'd, I would say All powers be bought with OIHID (and yes I would use armor) and call it good

Derek Hiemforth

Jun 20th, '03, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by JmOz
Except he keeps it when KO'd, I would say All powers be bought with OIHID (and yes I would use armor) and call it good If you go with OIHID (or Multiform), then yes, I'd buy it as Armor as well. (Without costing END to activate, etc.)

Hermit

Jun 20th, '03, 01:44 PM

There could also be some Density Increase with the Visable Limitation on it.

It all depends

Demonsong

Jun 20th, '03, 01:49 PM

OIHID is not really an option because 12 Seconds is a bit long to turn on his armored form. Don't you think?

CrosshairCollie

Jun 20th, '03, 02:00 PM

I'd use Armor and DI linked, DI with 'full power only'. Unless something has changed since the last time I read comics, Colossus reverts to human form when he's KOed, so 0end but non-persistent (maybe 'Costs End to start'). A little Life Support thrown in, and some Extra Strength that only works when the Density's on.

Derek Hiemforth

Jun 20th, '03, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Demonsong
OIHID is not really an option because 12 Seconds is a bit long to turn on his armored form. Don't you think? Sure. But where are you getting the 12 second figure from? It takes a Full Phase to change forms. Unless Colossus only has a SPD of 1, that's a lot less than 12 seconds. ;)

Killer Shrike

Jun 20th, '03, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
I'd use Armor and DI linked, DI with 'full power only'. Unless something has changed since the last time I read comics, Colossus reverts to human form when he's KOed, so 0end but non-persistent (maybe 'Costs End to start'). A little Life Support thrown in, and some Extra Strength that only works when the Density's on.
Well, Collossus is dead now IIRC, so thats a change, but regardless he hasnt changed back to normal form when knocked out for a long time. In fact, after the Marauders beat him up he had to strain to turn the armor form off rather than the other way around. during the years I was reading the X-Men, he was pretty much just always in metal form.....

Demonsong

Jun 20th, '03, 02:29 PM

I don’t have Fred with me by I thought I read OINID takes at minimum of one turn to change forms?

An I on drugs again?

Derek Hiemforth

Jun 20th, '03, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Demonsong
I don’t have Fred with me by I thought I read OINID takes at minimum of one turn to change forms?

An I on drugs again? Yep. :)

Killer Shrike

Jun 20th, '03, 02:40 PM

Collossus was always one of my favorite characters, but oddly Ive never gotten around to stating an equivalent in the HERO System.

I think Id build him with Visible Armor and then link some physical characteristics as Powers (about +40 STR (0 END, applies to base characteristic), CON, BODY, etc), Power Defense, Mental Defense, 2 levels of Density Increase, Knockback Resistance, Lack of Weakness, full life support, Damage Reduction 75% Resistant vs Magic, and negative inches of Leaping to the STR. I would take some Disadvantages linked to his Armor as well (for fewer total points) like Vulnerability to Corrosives (x2 BODY), and Vulnerability to Magnetism (x2 effect).

Early in his career the Armor also had Non-persistant and Costs Endurance (only to turn on), but he later switched that out for Always On instead.

The Linkage to the Visible Armor would cover any OIHID aspects for the other powers (remember when linking to a constant power the link is worth -1/4 less, for the same net limitation as OIHID), and would also prevent them from being used if his Armor were Suppressed or Dispeled or Drained which is more appropriate than OIHID IMO.

Pad the rest out with some skills and some appropriate filler powers/talents/perks.

YMMV

Brutal

Jun 20th, '03, 06:02 PM

Is the OIHID even worth any points to Colossus anyways? I havent really read much comics worth mentioning about the big guy in years, but AFAIK he wasn't human form a whole lot. I probably wouldnt giving any points to someone that goes human form that little.

Acroyear

Jun 20th, '03, 07:10 PM

I just use OIHID.

DI has to be visible to 3 sense groups, anyway.

I'm not sure armor qualifies for visible, really. Does a Knight have "visible" on his armor? Technically, it doesn't have to be visible. Just a thought, lots of armored types might be due an extra -1/4 lim on their armor (Iron Man, Captain America, all those guys with kevlar uniforms, etc - Perhaps not, say, Warhead... who has a bulletproof costume that is, apparently, made up of BDU pants and a tank top, yet affords him total armor coverage).

I always get gunshy when I see things like all stats and such linked to armor (or other naturally persistant power). Armor doesn't turn on and off, really... and it's worth -1/4 more than OIHID. My group terms this "point whoring" and, while technically legal, you can bet your backside that you'll run into a lot more situations where your armor is hindered or suppressed than you would get caught in your civilian ID.

While nothing really stops Colossus from changing forms whenever he wants, the visible change is harmful to a secret ID. Not such a big deal in X titles. In game terms, I would require a stricter adherance to secret ID or a reasonable civilian ID timeframe for the character to get caught without his powers on (snipers, surprise, etc).

Enforcer84

Jun 21st, '03, 01:38 AM

Well, here is my version (WARNING! I played in a high powered Marvel Campaign, some of his stats may not be for the feint of heart!):

<table border=1><tr><td bgcolor="white">Colossus Piotr Nikoliavic Rasputen 
<table><tr><td width=85%><table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25/100  </td><td>STR</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>DEX</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25/50  </td><td>CON</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15/25  </td><td>BODY</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>INT</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>EGO</td><td>16</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>PRE</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">14  </td><td>COM</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">0/54  </td><td>PD</td><td>-9</td></tr><tr><td align="right">0/47  </td><td>ED</td><td>-11</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4  </td><td>SPD</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">11/30  </td><td>REC</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">50/100  </td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">42/100  </td><td>STUN</td><td>1</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">6"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">5"/20"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 101</td><td><img src="http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=82260"></td></tr></table>
 <table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td>Body of Steel, all slots: Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">70  </td><td>1) Body of Steel: +70 STR, Reduced Endurance 1/2 END (+1/4) (87 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">40  </td><td>2) Body of Steel: +25 CON (50 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">14  </td><td>3) Body of Steel: +9 BODY (18 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">32  </td><td>4) Body of Steel: +40 PD (40 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">34  </td><td>5) Body of Steel: +42 ED (42 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>6) Body of Steel: Growth (+5 STR, +1 BODY, +1 STUN, -1" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 228 kg mass), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">24  </td><td>7) Body of Steel: Damage Resistance (30 PD/30 ED) (30 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">25  </td><td>8) Body of Steel: Life Support , Eating: Character only has to eat once per week, Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing, Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week (31 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4  </td><td>9) Body of Steel: Lack of Weakness (-5) for Resistant Defenses (5 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>10) Body of Steel: Knockback Resistance -3" (6 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>Instant Change: Transform 2d6 (Cosmetic) (10 Active Points); Limited Target: Own Clothes Slightly Limited (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 264
 <table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td>X-Men Combat Training </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>1) Jab: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>2) Crush: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +4d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>3) Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>4) Slam: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +v/5, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>5) Take Down: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR Strike; You Fall, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>6) Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>7) Hold: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>8) Choke: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>9) Reversal: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 32
 <table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>+3 with HTH Combat </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">6  </td><td>+3 with Throwing Humans/Fastball Special </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Language: Russian (Idiomatic, native accent) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Language: Shi'ar (Fluent Conversation) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Combat Driving 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Combat Piloting 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Mechanics 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>KS: Knowledge Skill: Fine Art 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>KS: Knowledge Skill: Lore (Russian) 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>KS: Knowledge Skill: X-Men 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>KS: Knowledge Skill: X-Men Enemies 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Artist 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Transport Familiarity: Air Vehicles </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Transport Familiarity: Ground Vehicles </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 55

 <table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Accidental Change: To armored form if surprised or takes damage in normal form 11- (Uncommon), This disad is not always applicable </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Mutant (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Hunted: Anti Mutant Forces 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Hunted: X-Men Enemies 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, Harshly Punish </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Sense of Duty to Fellow X-Men (Common; Strong; Overflow) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code Against Killing Common, Total </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Despondent over loss of family, clings to friends Common, Strong </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Bouts of Self Loathing Uncommon, Strong </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Reputation: X-Man: Frequently (11-) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Secret Identity: Piotr Nikoliavich Rasputin Frequently (11-), Major </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Vulnerability: 1 1/2x STUN Electrical Based Attacks Common </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Vulnerability: 1 1/2x BODY Electrical Based Attacks Common </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Vulnerability: 2x STUN Magnetic Based Attacks (Uncommon) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Vulnerability: 2x BODY Magnetic Based Attacks Uncommon </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Other things worth noting [Notes: During her time as a member of the New Mutants, Piotr had his sister Illyana as a DNPC. (As Pow, 11-)
He tried to keep his brother out of trouble while HE was alive
DNPC: Mo Pow, 8- not worth points I suppose.
For a time he was a member of the Accolytes, switch his hunted to the X-Men and give him "grim and gritty" psych lims, erm, not like now...*sigh*
He also went through a period where he had no HeroID, had the physical limitation of "can't control Strength" and tended to burn papers if he was out in the sun too long.] </td></tr></table>Disadvantage Points: 150
<hr>
Cost Summary:
Base Points:200
Disadvantage Points: 150
Experience Required: 102
Total Experience Available: 180

Total Character Cost: 452
<hr>
<table width="100%" valign="top"><tr valign="top"><td>Height: 6' 8"</td><td>Hair: Black</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td>Weight: 251 lbs</td><td>Eyes: Blue</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Appearance: Tall broad shouldered, very muscular Russian youth. After all his time with the X-men, Acolytes, and Excaliber, Peter still retains a boyish look about him. In his Armored Form, Peter is a 7'8'', 500 lbs, silver/grey human statue with metallic skin. His costume is red and gold with a gold belt. His legs and arms are mostly bare and he wears great red metal bracers on his wrists,</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Personality: Peter was a noble young man trying to do his best in a tricky situation. He was quiet, artistic, and well, probably boring. He filled the "Designated Punching Bag" role so the "cool" X-Men could defeat the bad guys.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Quote:"The lesson for today, tovarisch? Next time your extremely weighty teammate is doing reconnaissance on an icy precipice... do not leap on his back and yell "chicken fight." " From:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/6948/quotes.html</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Background: From: http://24.191.192.76:8000/colossus.html (Cerebra's Files) Real Name: Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin Affiliation: X-Men Previous Affiliations: Excalibur, Acolytes Aliases: Rasputin, Peter Nicholas, The Proletarian Status: Deceased Relatives: Nikolai (father, deceased), Alexandra (mother, deceased), Mikhail (brother), Illyana (Magik, sister, deceased), Peter, Jr. (son) Powers: Colossus could transmute his entire body into solid organic steel. His strength greatly increased upon transformation, as did his height and mass. In armored form he was nearly invulnerable, and didn't need to breathe or eat. Piotr was also an accomplished artist, but too often found his world shattered by violence and death. Colossus was one of the "new" X-Men recruited by Professor X to save the original team from Krakoa. Xavier found Piotr in the Ust-Ordyinski collective in the Ukraine, just after the Russian mutant smashed a tractor that was bearing down on his little sister Illyana. Xavier convinced Piotr that his powers were needed by the world, not just He quickly befriended Storm, who called him "little brother" due to his young age (not his height). Though strong enough against machines and humans, Colossus quickly found himself a little out of his league, leading to doubts in his confidence. These doubts were exploited by Arcade's android of Colonel Vashin (head of the Russian spies), who brainwashed Colossus into becoming "The Proletarian," a socialist monster who nearly killed his teammates before they cleared his head. Colossus regained his confidence, but life threw him another loop when young Kitty Pryde joined the X-Men. Kitty's crush soon blossomed into love. Colossus also found that he was not as invulnerable as he thought when Deathbird and the Brood attacked the X-Men on Earth. Piotr was hit with acid, and then impaled on Deathbird's javelin. His life was narrowly saved by the Starjammer Sikorsky. Then all the X-Men were infected with Brood eggs and destined to metamorphose into the vile creatures. However, Storm and the Acanti Prophetsinger purged the eggs from the mutants' bodies Back on Earth Piotr was joined at the Mansion by his sister Illyana, who soon fell into Limbo and emerged eight years older. Now Kitty's age, Illyana's position as Shadowcat's best friend helped Piotr and Kitty's relationship along. The two mutants even thought of marriage. Unfortunately, while on Battleworld during the so-called "Secret Wars," Colossus fell in love with the healer Zsaji, though each could not speak the other's language. It is likely that this was not true love, but rather a side-effect of Zsaji's healing powers, which had the same effect on the Human Torch. In the final Battle of the Secret Wars, Colossus and the other heroes were blown up by an omnipotent Dr. Doom, but Zsaji arrived in time to save Colossus, though at the cost of her own life. When he returned to Earth, Piotr broke up with Kitty. They eventually reconciled as friends, but never more than that. A few months later, during the Mutant Massacre Colossus was seriously injured by shuriken (throwing stars) thrown by Riptide, whom he then killed. Only Magneto's metal and energy-manipulating powers were able to save him. He recovered for atime at Muir Island, but rejoined his teammates when the Adversary began warping space-time around Forge's Aerie. At this point, Piotr was in humna form, and found it difficult to activate his powers. However, when the team needed an anchor to hold down the rope they used to enter the Adversary's fortress, Piotr becmae Colossus, even though he worried that he might not be able to change back. His fears proved valid, as even after the X-Men died to stop the Adversary and were resurrected by Roma, Colossus was stuck in his armored form. He remained this way for a long time, until he went through the Siege Perilous with his teammates to escape the Reavers. Colossus was reborn as "Peter Nicholas," an artist living in New York City. During this period Peter had no memory of his former life. He was captivated by a model he saw on billboards around the city, and eventually found her. The model turned out to be a healed Callisto, who also had no memory of her Morlock past. The two became lovers, and were even identified by X-Factor, though the mutant team never told them their true identities. A few months later, Colossus was located and possessed by the Shadow King and sent to capture Stevie Hunter, the X-Men's former dance teacher. Stevie managed to escape Colossus, and bought herself enough time for Professor X to return from space and break Farouk's hold on Colossus. This action destroyed the Peter Nicholas persona, and Colossus returned to the X-Men. He then lost his entire family (Illyana to the Legacy Virus and his parents to a rogue Soviet operation), and for a time (due to a head wound received from the X-Cutioner and the tragic death of his sister Illyana) gave up Xavier's dream and joined the Acolytes when Magneto returned to threaten the world. On Avalon, however, Colossus secretly helped the X-Men teleport into the station, feeling that even Magneto had gone too far in his attack on Earth. Kitty and Excalibur then tricked Colossus into returning to Earth from Avalon in order to heal his head wound, but even without the "brain damage" Piotr opted to stay with the Acolytes. Colossus stayed on Avalon until its destruction, trying to be a voice of reason, even defending the traitor Neophyte for helping the X-Men during an earlier battle. When the station was destroyed, Colossus tried to protect Magneto's comatose body, but lost hold of him before crashing in Antarctica. He was saved by Callisto, who had regained her earlier form but still remembered her time with "Peter Nicholas." Colossus brought Cal to the X-Men to stop the terrorist Gene Nation, but did not stay with the team, and left with the wounded Callisto after the battle. Colossus eventually returned to the fold, and went to visit his good friend Nightcrawler and his old flame Shadowcat, then members of Excalibur. He found Kitty kissing her then-boyfriend Wisdom and flipped out, beat Pete nearly to death. Pete managed to hotknife Colossus in the spine, and the team took him in as part of his "rehab." He came to accept his role in Excalibur and remained there until the team's dissolution, whereupon he returned with Kitty and Kurt to the States to rejoin the X-Men. Peter once again was a mainstay of the team, though the loss of his sister continued to haunt him. When Professor X seemed to be pushing the X-Men too hard after their return from the Skrull homeworld, Peter left with Marrow on a trip to some museums, where they encountered Mikhail, who was trying to bring Illyana back to life. As much as it hurt him, Peter had to stop Mikhail, but in the process managed to return him to our dimension and separate him from an energy parasite that was inhabiting him and driving him crazy. Unfortunately, Peter lost his brother again when Mikhail used his power to remove himself and Apocalypse's Horsemen from our reality. Still, Peter seemed at peace. Unfortunately, his peace was not to last. After the tragic death of Moira MacTaggert, Beast was finally able to synthesize the cure for the Legacy Virus, based on Moira's final thoughts and notes. He revealed his findings to his teammates, and Peter felt profound relief. Upon further analysis, however, they discovered that the only way to release the cure would kill the person into whom the cure serum was injected. After the others left the lab, Peter stayed behind. Cecilia Reyes seemed to sense what he was planning, but Peter sprayed her with knockout gas before she could stop him. He took the cure and injected it into himself, releasing the cure and saving thousands as he himself died. 13</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Powers/Tactics: Brick. He gets hit alot.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Campaign Use: See Above.</td></tr></table>
</td></tr></table>
Above.</td></tr></table>

Enforcer84

Jun 21st, '03, 01:43 AM

and if Killer Shrike or other HD enthusiests want it...

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear
I'm not sure armor qualifies for visible, really. Does a Knight have "visible" on his armor? Technically, it doesn't have to be visible. Just a thought, lots of armored types might be due an extra -1/4 lim on their armor (Iron Man, Captain America, all those guys with kevlar uniforms, etc - Perhaps not, say, Warhead... who has a bulletproof costume that is, apparently, made up of BDU pants and a tank top, yet affords him total armor coverage). That is not correct; Armor by default is not visible; it is specifically allowable to apply Visible to it. As far as the Knight question is concerned that is Armor purchased via an OBVIOUS FOCUS and thus the FOCUS is visible. Presumably Cap bought his armored mail via a FOCI or perhaps OIHID (in which case the appearance of the HID is wrapped up into the SFX of the limitation). The book is still out on Iron Man as there are many differnet ways of building him.

However characters like the THING and Collossus that have a visibly armored up form that is not a FOCI rate Visible on thier Armor.

As a side note, youre also incorrect about DI being visible to 3 senses -- it is also an inherently invisible Power.

Look up the Visible Limitation in FREd; it covers all of this.

I always get gunshy when I see things like all stats and such linked to armor (or other naturally persistant power). Armor doesn't turn on and off, really... and it's worth -1/4 more than OIHID. My group terms this "point whoring" and, while technically legal, you can bet your backside that you'll run into a lot more situations where your armor is hindered or suppressed than you would get caught in your civilian ID. Incorrect again. As I note in my above post, Powers linked to a Constant Power take a -1/4 reduction on the Linked lim. Thus Linking anything to Armor only gives -1/4 because Armor is Constant. This is the same net lim as OIHID.

While nothing really stops Colossus from changing forms whenever he wants, the visible change is harmful to a secret ID. Not such a big deal in X titles. In game terms, I would require a stricter adherance to secret ID or a reasonable civilian ID timeframe for the character to get caught without his powers on (snipers, surprise, etc).

As I noted, after the Maruaders (circa 210's if memory serves, sometime around 1987 or so, around 15 years) Collossus had the opposite problem; in HEROs terms he traded off NonPersistent and Cost Endurance to Activate for Always On, using the optional rules covered under always on for turning off such a power with strain/END loss/etc.

Being unable to blend in with normals was a problem for mutants not because of Secret IDs such is the case for characters like Spiderman, but rather bcs mutants are persecuted, and freakish appearance makes one a target. Quite a bit of the X-books in the day revolved around doing things on the low-down.

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Enforcer84
and if Killer Shrike or other HD enthusiests want it... I do indeedy. Thanx much!

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 02:00 AM

Ahem; couldnt find the IMAGE tags in the B&W Heroboards export template I gave you I take it?

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Enforcer84

Colossus

Player: NPC; Member of X-Men; Character created by Marvel Comics
<table><tr><td>
<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25/100  </td><td>STR</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>DEX</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25/50  </td><td>CON</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15/25  </td><td>BODY</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>INT</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>EGO</td><td>16</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>PRE</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">14  </td><td>COM</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">0/54  </td><td>PD</td><td>-9</td></tr><tr><td align="right">0/47  </td><td>ED</td><td>-11</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4  </td><td>SPD</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">11/30  </td><td>REC</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">50/100  </td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">42/100  </td><td>STUN</td><td>1</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">6"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">5"/20"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 101</td><td><img src="http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=82260"></td></tr></table>

Try that

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 02:10 AM

BTW Enforcer, stop playing around with this non sequitir and get back to work on Day Tripper! The Character Posting Game must go on!

Acroyear

Jun 21st, '03, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
That is not correct; Armor by default is not visible; it is specifically allowable to apply Visible to it. As far as the Knight question is concerned that is Armor purchased via an OBVIOUS FOCUS and thus the FOCUS is visible. Presumably Cap bought his armored mail via a FOCI or perhaps OIHID (in which case the appearance of the HID is wrapped up into the SFX of the limitation). The book is still out on Iron Man as there are many differnet ways of building him.

I wouldn't say it's incorrect (especially after I said it was technically legal). Cap's armor is almost never taken from him nor can I think of any instances (there must be some) where it's "focus" nature is a disadvantage to him. Thus, it is not a focus. Nor is it OIHID because he can wear it and get the benefit of it underneath normal clothing in his secret identity. However, it's visible to anyone who sees it that it is scale armor, it's visible to anyone who touches it that it's scale armor, etc. What about Dr. Doom? Or Dr. Destroyer. He is bought "straight" with the SFX that it's impossible to remove. However, the limitation is not on his armor even though it's quite obvious he's wearing it.

Just pointing out something that does not seem to provide support in officially published characters (and comic examples) yet seems perfectly legal.

Incorrect again. As I note in my above post, Powers linked to a Constant Power take a -1/4 reduction on the Linked lim. Thus Linking anything to Armor only gives -1/4 because Armor is Constant. This is the same net lim as OIHID.
[/qoute]

Sorry. I don't play 5th edition. That reduction to the limitation does not exist ;) And, in that instance, there's not much difference (I'd point out the original example, btw, is using the -1/2 value)

[quote] As I noted, after the Maruaders (circa 210's if memory serves, sometime around 1987 or so, around 15 years) Collossus had the opposite problem; in HEROs terms he traded off NonPersistent and Cost Endurance to Activate for Always On, using the optional rules covered under always on for turning off such a power with strain/END loss/etc.

Or he dropped OIHID for a while and changed his Distinctive Features disad to "concealable with great effort" or even a Susc to END from being in his fleshy form.

Jus' sayin'... :)

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 02:20 AM

All fair enough; however Caps armor still meets the requirements for OIHID and thats how I would build it.

As far as Doom Visible Armor seems to fit to me.

RE: dont play 5th; um, ok. I cant really imagine why not; its 85% the same game, with 15% clarifications, new material, and fixes. The only thing I havent liked so far is the new Damage Shield rules ;) Otherwise, its Tony the Tiger GRRRRRRRREAT --YMMV of course

Acroyear

Jun 21st, '03, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
All fair enough; however Caps armor still meets the requirements for OIHID and thats how I would build it.

So does Colossus, imo. I guess it's all in the personal design philosophy. :)

Cap's doesn't meet that requirement, imo, because it can be used while not in his heroic identity. For us, OIHID (we call it "HFO" - pre4th throwback) represents a visible and obvious difference from the civvie ID (Colossus fits that description, for example). Personally, I'd build Cap's as a focus and just say his GM is a slacker. heh heh

RE: dont play 5th; um, ok. I cant really imagine why not; its 85% the same game, with 15% clarifications, new material, and fixes. The only thing I havent liked so far is the new Damage Shield rules ;) Otherwise, its Tony the Tiger GRRRRRRRREAT --YMMV of course

Because we've been playing since '81 or '82 and been playing 4th since, well, it came out. It works fine for us and we have no reason to change and a few reasons not to change; I won't go into it, but feel it would be too much work for too little (if any) benefit and the lack of an acceptable chargen software (HD is very slow, imo, and prints like crap for longer characters).

The campaign I am working on (and probably will never run) is intended to be a 5th game without the MAP stuff. Mostly just to justify the expense of the book.

Galadorn

Jun 21st, '03, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
If you go with OIHID (or Multiform), then yes, I'd buy it as Armor as well. (Without costing END to activate, etc.)

My understand is that its not density increase, but armor. According to the old Marvel Universe comics they put out. Hardened? I don't know, good question. Probably.

white peregrine

Jun 21st, '03, 04:45 AM

I'd personally run with OIHID. some growth(say 5/10pts), armor with appropriate advantages and call it a day. his stats would be modified accordingly to his "armored" form which just means I would bump his STR, CON, and BODY up. all his other stats would remain the same.

I think colossus is actually a good representative of your "standard" brick. as such, you want to keep him simple and clean as far as powers go. the only thing "funky" about him is that he has to change into hero id to have his powers...aka: OIHID limitation.

on a side note...colossus is indeed dead. he sacrificed himself to save the rest of the mutants on the wolrd from the legacy virus. due to this, I seriously doubt that we will see him return...to bad really, always was my favorite x-man. what a waste...

Edsel

Jun 21st, '03, 08:49 AM

Here is the version of Colossus that I played in our old X-Men campaign. This is a Silver/Bronze Age version and I just updated it from 3rd Ed. Hero System. There were a lot of tweaks to the Hero system in this old campaign, not the least of which was a complete redo of the STR chart (for instance 35 STR = 1 ton lift, 62 STR = 10 tons, 81 STR = 50 tons, 89 STR = 100 tons, etc.)

When we played this game we played it for fun alone. XP were rarely awarded by the GM. Our take on this was that the Colossus from issue 60 was really no different that the Colossus that appeared in issue 80. Whenever the character in the comic appeared to have changed we'd change our write-up of them.

Colossus

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">78/88  </td><td>STR</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>DEX</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>CON</td><td>26</td></tr><tr><td align="right">12/13  </td><td>BODY</td><td>4</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>INT</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>EGO</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>PRE</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">16  </td><td>COM</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">24/45  </td><td>PD</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">24/45  </td><td>ED</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4  </td><td>SPD</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">23  </td><td>REC</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">60  </td><td>END</td><td>-3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">87/88  </td><td>STUN</td><td>3</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">6"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">5"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 105

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td>Living Steel Powers </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">60  </td><td>1) Armor (20 PD/20 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">31  </td><td>2) Life Support , Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing (39 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>3) Density Increase (200 kg mass, +5 STR, +1 PD/ED, -1" KB), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>4) Growth (+5 STR, +1 BODY, +1 STUN, -1" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 200 kg mass), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4  </td><td>5) Power Defense (5 points) (5 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td>Living Steel Increased Characteristics </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">35  </td><td>1) +53 STR (53 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), STR does not add to Jump (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">11  </td><td>2) +7 CON (14 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>3) +3 EGO (6 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4  </td><td>4) +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2  </td><td>5) +3 PD (3 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>6) +13 ED (13 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>7) +1 SPD (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">13  </td><td>8) +16 STUN (16 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2  </td><td>9) +6 END (3 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7  </td><td>Instant Change: Transform 2d6: From Civilian ID into Colossus Form (Cosmetic) (10 Active Points); Limited Target Own Clothing Only (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3  </td><td>Mental Resistance Training: +5 Mental Defense (9 points total) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Not vs. EGO Attacks (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 211

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Punch: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +v/5, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Upper Cut: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, Strike +2d6 </td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 12

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Breakfall 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Language: English (Russian is native) (completely fluent) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Navigation (Air, Land) 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Paramedics 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>PS: Artist 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>PS: Farmer 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Survival (Arctic/Subarctic, Mountain, Temperate/Subtropical) 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Systems Operation 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">18  </td><td>TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles, Agricultural & Construction Vehicles, Combat Aircraft, Equines, Helicopters, Large Planes, Parachuting, Basic, SCUBA, Skating (iceskating or rollerskating), Skiing (snow), Sleds, Small Motorized Boats, Small Planes, Small Rowed Boats, Snowmobiles, Tracked Military Vehicles, Wheeled Military Vehicles </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>+2 with HTH Combat </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>+1 Throwing </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>+2 RMod with Throwing </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 54

Total Character Cost: 382

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Loyality to the X-Men (Uncommon; Strong) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing (Common; Strong) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Secret ID: Pietr Rasputian (Frequently; Major) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Hunted: Sentinels 11- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Magneto 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Brotherhood of Evil Mutants 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Hellfire Club 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) [Notes: All of the hunteds are More Powerful because all are groups whose combined might is greater than Colossus alone, except for Magneto who is obviously more powerful.] </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN EGO Attacks (Uncommon) </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 110

Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 72
Total Experience Available: 72
Experience Unspent: 0

The attached image is the artwork we used. I had to shrink it to less than half its original size to make the size limit.

Edsel

Jun 21st, '03, 08:56 AM

Oh yeah, attached is the HD file for my version of Colossus.

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 10:23 AM

Thanx for the write up & HDC EDSEL; however 1 note: you dont need Instant Change in conjunction with OIHID. The appearance change is handled by the activation of his Powers.

FAQ Q: I’m somewhat confused by the removal of Instant Change as a separate Power (now it’s just Transform) and the whole “activating your powers is a Zero-Phase Action that can work a physical change” rule. I’d like some guidance or further explanation, based on hypotheticals.

Q1: Tony’s instant change is that his armor teleports to him from his headquarters. His clothing isn’t transmuted. Let’s say he “changes” into his armor. His armor can still be taken away from him, in which case he can’t change back into it — there isn’t an armored suit on the teleport pad waiting for his call anymore. Can he change back to his normal clothes? The armor is actually too tough for Transform to convert it back to normal clothes.

A1: You’re confusing Instant Change with “activation of powers.” When Tony has his armor zapped on to him, he’s activating his powers. Nothing happens to his clothing (it would stay on underneath, perhaps, or get zapped back to the teleport pad through the same process that sent the armor). All he’s done is turned on his powers.

The appearance and disappearance of the armor are special effects. They’ve got nothing to do with Transforming clothes. But even if his special effect was “my clothes change into armor” — that’s just a special effect. You don’t have to buy Instant Change Transform or any other Power to accomplish it — it’s just an activation of powers. Check out “Activating Powers” on 5E 71-72 for further discussion.

Agent X

Jun 21st, '03, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Well, Collossus is dead now IIRC, so thats a change, but regardless he hasnt changed back to normal form when knocked out for a long time. In fact, after the Marauders beat him up he had to strain to turn the armor form off rather than the other way around. during the years I was reading the X-Men, he was pretty much just always in metal form..... You were reading during a bad period of the X-Men then. Oh wait, anything from around 200-220 on is a bad period. IMO

Agent X

Jun 21st, '03, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Brutal
Is the OIHID even worth any points to Colossus anyways? I havent really read much comics worth mentioning about the big guy in years, but AFAIK he wasn't human form a whole lot. I probably wouldnt giving any points to someone that goes human form that little. He stayed in human form most of the time when the book was worth reading back in the issues now considered "classics" and I consider the early run of the Uncanny before Claremont lost his grip on storytelling.

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
You were reading during a bad period of the X-Men then. Oh wait, anything from around 200-220 on is a bad period. IMO I collected from 200 to 300. I also had all of the Classic X-Men as well.

white peregrine

Jun 21st, '03, 11:01 AM

pre-marauder incident peter actually spent a majority of his "down time" unarmored. that the comic is action based (like nearly all comics are) the ratio is definately lopsided. I would still classify his armored form as OIHID due to the time that they had been captured and his Armored Form was neutralized...meaning he couldn't get out of the prison he was put in. that it happened rarely works as well from a gaming stand point in that the character should not always have to deal with loss of his abilities all the time....it should be a rare occurance as it was with colossus....

Agent X

Jun 21st, '03, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I collected from 200 to 300. I also had all of the Classic X-Men as well. Early 200s is when I finally realized I had been collecting a book because I used to like the stories. I could see the warning signs with the Callisto/Angel plot, Storm's identity crisis, and Claremont's inability to let go of Marvel Secret Wars garbage, actually letting it "infect" the subplots in the main title. Claremont always seemed to need a strong creative team to keep his ideosyncracies in check. When Byrne left it was only a matter of time before Claremont lost his bearings. Of course, Byrne needed someone keeping him in check too. They both worked best, together, with "Darth" Shooter peering over their shoulders.

Edsel

Jun 21st, '03, 01:05 PM

Our old campaign took place during the pre-dark phoenix saga. With a few versions of later characters as well. Back then Pete did indeed stay in normal human form whenever he could. Being in his armored form just served to remind him that he wasn't normal. Besides it was a lot easier to interact like a normal person when you arn't made of steel.

I probably need to work on my version of him a little. Now that I reexamine it the OIHID is probably optional. I'm not really sure I like the new way to handle Instant Change but that's probably just me being uncomfortable with something new. I'm getting set in my ways in my older years :D (I'm 41). :eek:

I've got write up for a whole passel of the X-Men: Archangel, Banshee, Beast, Bishop, Cannonball, Cyclops, Gambit, Havok, Ice Man, Jubilee, Marvel Girl, Nightcrawler, Phoenix, Polaris, Psylocke, Rogue, Shadowcat, Siryn, Storm, Strong Guy, Sunfire, Professor X and Wolverine. Colossus was my character.

A lot of Avengers: Black Knight, Captian America, Hawkeye, Iron Man (including Anthony Stark, Iron Man Mk. V, VI & VII), Hercules, Living Lightning, Ms Marvel (Carol Danvers (sp?)), Thor & Wasp. I played Iron Man in this group.

Other Marvel Heros: Daredevil, Demolition Man, Diamondback, Falcon, Iron Fist, Moon Knight, Silver Sable, Spider-Man, Witchfire. I'd run Demolition Man whenever we played the variant we called Captian America & His Amazing Friends.

The Thunderbolts (remember them?): Jolt, Atlas, MACH-1, Moonstone & Songbird

From the Shi'ar Imperial Guard I have: Earthquake, Fang, Gladiator, Hussar, Manta, Neutron (originally Quasar), Oracle, Smasher, Starbolt, Titan and Warstar (C'Cil & B'Nee)

Neutrals (sometimes villians): Crimson Dynamo, Hulk

Villians: Absorbing Man, AIM Agents, Batroc the Leaper, Bulldozer (member of Wrecking Crew), Bullseye, Crossbones, Doctor Doom, Emma Frost (White Queen of the Hellfire Club), Hellfire Mercenaries (agents), HYRDA (Assault Agents & Commandos), Jack O'lantern, Juggernaut, Klaw (and a Sonic Ape), Harry Leland (Black Bishop of the Hellfire Club), Machete, Machinesmith, Magneto, Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde of the Hellfire Club), Donald Pierce (White Bishop of the Hellfire Club), Piledriver (Wrecking Crew), Selene (Black Queen of the Hellfire Club), Sebastian Shaw (Black King of the Hellfire Club), Silver Dreadnoughts, Spymaster, Thunderball (Wrecking Crew), Titania, Ultron-11, Wrecker (leader of the Wrecking Crew), Zaran and Baron Zemo II

The Bad News is that, aside from Colossus, I haven't put any of them into Hero Designer format yet.:( However, as time permits I might start converting some of them.

PowerMavin

Jun 21st, '03, 01:41 PM

Doesn't OIHID need a defined condition to prevent change?
As the bad guy, how can I prevent Colossus from changing?
If I can't prevent the change, its not OIHID, so how is the effect simulated without OIHID?

Finally, has Colossus ever been blindsided in his squishy, human form? Are his powers really limited?

Acroyear

Jun 21st, '03, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by PowerMavin
Doesn't OIHID need a defined condition to prevent change?

Sure. Does that change have to be physical? No. A psychological one is just fine... such as "I don't want to expose my secret identity."

While Jean Grey might be able to secretly toss her powers around in subtle ways, Iceman can hold his hands behind his back and make his cola cold without raising alarm, Colossus can not turn into a metal guy to help himself open a stubborn jar of pickles without everyone easily seeing "oh, cripes, he's a big metal guy!"

Colossus doesn't care as much, it seems... however, there are times when he doesn't want to freak people out and stuff. In his particular case, it has to do more with distinctive features and social disads than a "secret id."

As the bad guy, how can I prevent Colossus from changing? If I can't prevent the change, its not OIHID, so how is the effect simulated without OIHID?

Not all limitations are about the bad guy doing stuff to you.

In Colossus' case. He's very easy to KO when in his fleshy form, he could be put on a weight sensitive device/sensor/whatever attached to a bomb or over a volcano or whatever wacky thing you can think of if you really need that aspect.

Finally, has Colossus ever been blindsided in his squishy, human form? Are his powers really limited?

I'm pretty sure he has, however, comic stories are rare where you showcase a character by leaving him unconscious or something the whole time ;)

It can be simulated other ways, of course. OIHID just seems the most streamlined to me.

Enforcer84

Jun 21st, '03, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Ahem; couldnt find the IMAGE tags in the B&W Heroboards export template I gave you I take it?

No! I can't! its killing me.
Do I need to save it as an Hdx file or what? I'm ....oh wait, maybe I am doing ...... nope, that wasn't it either....

Killer Shrike

Jun 21st, '03, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Enforcer84
No! I can't! its killing me.
Do I need to save it as an Hdx file or what? I'm ....oh wait, maybe I am doing ...... nope, that wasn't it either....
Make sure you are using the B&W export.

When making the character, make sure that the character has a n image IN HERO DESIGNER. It doesnt matter what picture, any picture will do. Then export. The export template uses the if image tag to implant the appropriate html snippet if the character file has an image.

Enforcer84

Jun 22nd, '03, 05:30 PM

THere we go. THanks KS!

Killer Shrike

Jun 22nd, '03, 08:38 PM

No problem!

However, you have a snippet of code from the 1st post at the end of your Colossus post thats causing some formatting trouble.

Go back and take out the final /td /tr /table tag set at the very bottom of your post, that should fix it.

Agent X

Jun 22nd, '03, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Acroyear
Sure. Does that change have to be physical? No. A psychological one is just fine... such as "I don't want to expose my secret identity."

While Jean Grey might be able to secretly toss her powers around in subtle ways, Iceman can hold his hands behind his back and make his cola cold without raising alarm, Colossus can not turn into a metal guy to help himself open a stubborn jar of pickles without everyone easily seeing "oh, cripes, he's a big metal guy!"

Colossus doesn't care as much, it seems... however, there are times when he doesn't want to freak people out and stuff. In his particular case, it has to do more with distinctive features and social disads than a "secret id."

[b]

Not all limitations are about the bad guy doing stuff to you.

In Colossus' case. He's very easy to KO when in his fleshy form, he could be put on a weight sensitive device/sensor/whatever attached to a bomb or over a volcano or whatever wacky thing you can think of if you really need that aspect.

[b]

I'm pretty sure he has, however, comic stories are rare where you showcase a character by leaving him unconscious or something the whole time ;)

It can be simulated other ways, of course. OIHID just seems the most streamlined to me. He has been surprised. The other thing is he has had his power turned off for him.

Acroyear

Jun 23rd, '03, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
He has been surprised. The other thing is he has had his power turned off for him.

I figured as much. :)

However, the "turned off" thing I wouldn't use as a qualifier, myself, because you can drain such a thing away even if he bought it straight and such.

Technically, you could also mind control him to turn it off since persistant powers can be voluntarily shut off... but that's against the spirit of many conceptions and, to my experience, rarely comes up.

Robot Guy "I'm a robot, I don't have to breath out here in space."

Mind Control: "Turn off your life support"

Robot Guy then sufforcates...

Killer Shrike

Jun 23rd, '03, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear
I figured as much. :)

However, the "turned off" thing I wouldn't use as a qualifier, myself, because you can drain such a thing away even if he bought it straight and such.

Technically, you could also mind control him to turn it off since persistant powers can be voluntarily shut off... but that's against the spirit of many conceptions and, to my experience, rarely comes up.

Robot Guy "I'm a robot, I don't have to breath out here in space."

Mind Control: "Turn off your life support"

Robot Guy then sufforcates... Except of course in 5th Edition the Robot should probably have INHERENT Life Support, which could not be turned off. :)

Acroyear

Jun 23rd, '03, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Except of course in 5th Edition the Robot should probably have INHERENT Life Support, which could not be turned off. :)

Very true. Although should doesn't always equate to does. ;) This is true of many of the sample characters we've seen, too, where some of their powers should be inherent, but aren't purchased that way (the life support on Mechanon, just to give one example).

Killer Shrike

Jun 23rd, '03, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear
Very true. Although should doesn't always equate to does. ;) This is true of many of the sample characters we've seen, too, where some of their powers should be inherent, but aren't purchased that way (the life support on Mechanon, just to give one example). True, but Mechanon takes STUN too, so he's not very Robotic. I suspect that one day we will discover that hiding behind Mechanon is a very small man with a huge Napolean complex that can clone himself, who wants to wipe out all mankind due to a sheer stunty-egoitistic inability to deal with his inadequecies.

Secretly, Mechanon is just a Power Armor suit. ;)

tiger

Jun 23rd, '03, 07:42 AM

I have worked up Colossus for a evolution type campaign. So he's in his early to mid-teens and not fully matured.
Colossus

Player:

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20/40  </td><td>STR</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>DEX</td><td>9</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>CON</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">14/16  </td><td>BODY</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>INT</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>EGO</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>PRE</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>COM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">4/21  </td><td>PD</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4/21  </td><td>ED</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td align="right">3  </td><td>SPD</td><td>7</td></tr><tr><td align="right">6  </td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">40  </td><td>END</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">60/62  </td><td>STUN</td><td>30</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">8"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>4</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">9"/13"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>5</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 90

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>Organic Steel Powers:  </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>Big & Bad: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 499 kg mass) (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8  </td><td>Heavy Man: Density Increase (500 kg mass, +10 STR, +2 PD/ED, -2" KB) (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Organic Steel: Armor (15 PD/15 ED) (45 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Visible (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4  </td><td>Organic Skin: Damage Resistance (4 PD/4 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (5 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3  </td><td>Organic Muscle: +5 STR (5 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>Heavy Man: Knockback Resistance -5" </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">14  </td><td>Organic Steel Body: Life Support , Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing (17 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Mental Conditioning: +5 Mental Defense (7 points total) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 82

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Crush: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +4d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Flying Tackle: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, STR +v/5 Strike; You Fall, Target Falls; FMove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Takedown: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, STR Strike; Target Falls </td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 10

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Langauge: Russian (Natvie) Complete Fluent: Literate  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Language: English (completely fluent; literate) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>KS: Art (INT-based) 11- </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 7

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Perk</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Green Card </td></tr></table>Perks Cost: 2

Total Character Cost: 191

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Mutant (All the Time; Slightly Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Hunted: Hunted Mutant haters 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Secret ID (Frequently; Major) </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 50

Base Points: 150
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

Acroyear

Jun 23rd, '03, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
[B]True, but Mechanon takes STUN too, so he's not very Robotic.[b]

Pshaw! There's no tap dancing around that one, my friend :) Similarly, Mechanon shouldn't be able to turn off his armor (it's metal, the rest of us can't simply "turn off" our skin), his lack of weakness (it's part of the design, that'd be like me just willing my ligaments not to hold my bones together). And that was only one example. What about the Minuteman Robot? That's actually an automaton without inherent LS.

While the tools are certainly there, their use isn't.

I suspect that one day we will discover that hiding behind Mechanon is a very small man with a huge Napolean complex that can clone himself, who wants to wipe out all mankind due to a sheer stunty-egoitistic inability to deal with his inadequecies.

Secretly, Mechanon is just a Power Armor suit. ;)

That's..... real bizarre. :D

Killer Shrike

Jun 23rd, '03, 11:39 AM

I completely agree that many characters that should have inherent applied dont. All I can chalk it up to is Inherent, being new, hasnt completely worked its way into peoples mindsets yet.

The funny thing is, I implemented a similar rule years ago as a variant of Always On after a clever Necromancer PC got rid of a lot of ghosts by Suppressing or Dispelling (cant remember which anymore) thier Desolid. I was like, "uh...that doesnt make any sence...". Basically Always On, cant be turned off was worth -0 rather than the usual -1/2 and had the same exact effect as Inherent does now.

My only concern about Inherent is that, because its an Advantage, it has a steep cost impact for many characters for an effect that simple doesnt come into play all that often.

Acroyear

Jun 23rd, '03, 12:32 PM

We had a similar house rule once upon a time (we called it "Intrinsic" for stuff like knives and such. Unless you had a power that specifically targeted the nature of the ability, it couldn't be affected normally).

As for "not in the mind" yet... the same guy who wrote the power in also did the write-up :p heh heh. When published works are our sample characters... what lead will most people follow? And, thus, what is the standard? It leaves the rest of us playing a slightly different game, in the end.

I agree with the cost concern, too. However, I suppose for those who are adhering to the letter of the rules and are also Champsguy-like, one must have ways to counter inventive means for SFX-ing everything as immune to drain/etc for free.

Crimson Arrow

Jun 23rd, '03, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

All I can chalk it up to is Inherent, being new, hasnt completely worked its way into peoples mindsets yet.

Exactly what I was going to say yesterday, but having spent some time coming up with detailed stuff about building Colossus, I was timed out and lost the whole thing (I normally cut the text when that happens, but did something wrong, somehow).

I completely agree that Inherent is a bit costly for something which will rarely be relevant. Who knows, the cost might change in 6th Ed.

While I haven't the time or the inclination to retype yesterday's post from memory, my suggestion was to give Piotr Density Increase, with the Visible Limitation, but NOT OIHID.

Many of his other powers (Growth, extra STR, Armour, Life Support) are Linked to his Density Increase. If Piotr isn't in his organic steel form, he doesn't have his powers. Changing into his steel form is Visible and makes him heavy, both of which could cause problems in some cases, so it is a Limitation.

The points difference is not that much (losing OIHID on the DI), but if anyone has a problem with it being too hard to block the change, Linked might be the way to build it.

I couldn't find out how much Colossus weighed in armoured form (I didn't look that hard), but considering the Body of Stone power in FREd and factoring in his Growth, I'd say the two characters posted here have underdone the levels of DI Piotr possessed. You're probably looking at about 4 to 6 levels, with 1 or 2 of Growth.

I wouldn't mind betting that if anyone can turn up a weight, it's not as high as those powers would indicate, but he was a 7 foot plus guy made of living metal, so he would be pretty heavy. I've often thought that handbooks often guess at characters' weights instead of trying to work them out.

Agent X

Jun 24th, '03, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
True, but Mechanon takes STUN too, so he's not very Robotic. I suspect that one day we will discover that hiding behind Mechanon is a very small man with a huge Napolean complex that can clone himself, who wants to wipe out all mankind due to a sheer stunty-egoitistic inability to deal with his inadequecies.

Secretly, Mechanon is just a Power Armor suit. ;) Mini-me!

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 12:07 AM

http://www.themirrorsedge.com/examples/xmen/colossus.html
http://members.aol.com/pgkrumholz/colossus/ColStats.html

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear

As for "not in the mind" yet... the same guy who wrote the power in also did the write-up :p heh heh. When published works are our sample characters... what lead will most people follow? And, thus, what is the standard? It leaves the rest of us playing a slightly different game, in the end.
Nobodys perfect?

Agent X

Jun 24th, '03, 12:52 AM

Perhaps inherent should be an adder? Of course that's not helpful to low cost powers.

Crimson Arrow

Jun 24th, '03, 04:02 AM

Thanks KS. The first link only gave an unarmoured weight, but the second was useful.

Looks like 1 level of Growth and 3 of Density Increase from those figures.

EDIT Oops, I meant 2 of Density Increase.

Acroyear

Jun 24th, '03, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Nobodys perfect?

WHAT?!

:D

Actually, I can't think of any characters that have the inherent advantage actually purchased for anything.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear
WHAT?!

:D

Actually, I can't think of any characters that have the inherent advantage actually purchased for anything. Some creatures with extra limbs do. Of course, some others dont....

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 06:55 AM

Colossus isn't that heavy of a character.

You can check here for a copy of Marvel's view on his stats.
<a href="http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/colossus.htm">Marvel Directory</a>

These are copied from the old Marvel who's who style releases for the most part.

I would say OHID makes the most sense for his power. I don't know if I would allow it in an EC though.

Kid Chaos

Demonsong

Jun 24th, '03, 07:29 AM

I think one of the big misconceptions about Colossus is that becomes solid metal. This is not the case. He is a normal flesh and blood man, covered in metal armor.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Demonsong
I think one of the big misconceptions about Colossus is that becomes solid metal. This is not the case. He is a normal flesh and blood man, covered in metal armor.

The writers have differed on that over the years; but I clearly remember back in the day he was referred to as being "solid organic steel"

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 08:00 AM

Checking the Directory which is more or less a copy of the entry from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe put out by Marvel.

"Colossus is a mutant with the superhuman ability to convert the tissue of his entire body into an organic steel-like substance, granting him superhuman strength and a high degree of resistance to bodily harm. This substance, resembling organic steel, is of unknown composition but appears to be analogous to osmium and to carbon steel. He is able to transform into this armor-like state at will (the process is virtually instantaneous) and remain in that form for an as yet undetermined amount of time. (The longest time he has remained in armored form so far has been five days). Once in his armored form he remains so until he consciously wills himself back to normal. If he is rendered unconscious, however, he spontaneously reverts to his normal form. While in his armored state, Colossus possesses the same degree of mobility that he does in his normal form."

So Marvel states he does change his entire body to whatever that stuff is that looks like metal. They also state if knocked unconcious he reverts to unarmoured form.

They have broken the latter a few times for plot effect that I can recall. I do not recall them ever stating that he only armoured up his outer layer of tissue or even created the armour out of thin air to cover himself. His transformation is more like Banner's into the hulk than Bobby Drake's into hi ice covered form in classic x-men.

Before anyone points it out, I am aware that currently Bobby can change his entire body into ice as well.

I own almost all the old Marvel The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe issues as well as the DC Who's Who. I highly reccomend them if you're striving for accuracy regarding a comic character. Otherwise go with you approximation and ignore the critics. ^_^

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Kid Chaos
Colossus isn't that heavy of a character.

You can check here for a copy of Marvel's view on his stats.
<a href="http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/colossus.htm">Marvel Directory</a>

These are copied from the old Marvel who's who style releases for the most part.

Kid Chaos
Yeah, thats dated information. Colossus was powered up in later suplements and in the comics to the 100 ton range and the benefits of his metal form were "fleshed out" a bit more, if you'll pardon the pun.

Actually, almost all the strength estimates given in that series were later upped.

Still, good base data. Thanx!

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 08:06 AM

No Problem, it's fairly consistent with my Handbook so I use it while at work. Carrying those things around is just not an option..

Demonsong

Jun 24th, '03, 08:13 AM

Colossus is consistently referred to as having an armored form or activating his body armor in every comic or novel I have ever read. Although it is the older story line, its been a long time since I have read any comics. Any way I am going to go with the armored form because that how it is described in the original story line.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Demonsong
Colossus is consistently referred to as having an armored form or activating his body armor in every comic or novel I have ever read. Although it is the older story line, its been a long time since I have read any comics. Any way I am going to go with the armored form because that how it is described in the original story line. When you say original storyline, are your referring to Giant Sized X-Men #1 and later issues of X-Men? I still recall him being "solid organic steel" at that point too. Marvel has been fairly consistent on that point in the X-books themselves; when Colossus showed up in other books in cross-overs writers unfamiliar with the character sometimes referred to his "armored skin" or "metal skin", but in the actual X-books it was his "armored form" or "metal body".

Agent X

Jun 24th, '03, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Demonsong
I think one of the big misconceptions about Colossus is that becomes solid metal. This is not the case. He is a normal flesh and blood man, covered in metal armor. Yeah, as proved by Deathbird's acid lance attack back in, I think, the 150s of the Uncanny X-Men.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
Yeah, as proved by Deathbird's acid lance attack back in, I think, the 150s of the Uncanny X-Men. Which was later ignored. Comics is full of inconsistencies like that.

tiger

Jun 24th, '03, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Which was later ignored. Comics is full of inconsistencies like that.

True, which can be said for him being able to lift 100 tons. That puts him into Thor's league, which he isn't

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 10:02 AM

I'll go with the Marvel party line (aka references in material considered canon) in this case and chalk the event up to artistic license and plot device.

Keep in mind that in most media forms what is typically held as canon does not stay true all the time. A power displayed by x person will be forgotten if it could easily solve or de-rail the current storyline.

That said I honesly don't care what you go with just pointing out what Marvel says about it. Even his last write up on their website just before his death stated it was total tissue conversion.

Agent X

Jun 24th, '03, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Which was later ignored. Comics is full of inconsistencies like that. It was ignored in statements of effect. Were there any visuals that contradicted this afterward? I sort of lost interest around 200.

tiger

Jun 24th, '03, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Which was later ignored. Comics is full of inconsistencies like that.

One has to have a basis for converting comic heroes into the Hero System. Now, some will not agree or like you convertion you still need a basis to convert it from.

Using the Marvel Handbook does give this basis. One could also use the Marvel Game, but each level has a broad range so it's not the best either. But is good refernce material anyway.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by tiger
One has to have a basis for converting comic heroes into the Hero System. Now, some will not agree or like you convertion you still need a basis to convert it from.

Using the Marvel Handbook does give this basis. One could also use the Marvel Game, but each level has a broad range so it's not the best either. But is good refernce material anyway. And all of the official Marvel canon states that Colossus becomes completely solid metal.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by tiger
True, which can be said for him being able to lift 100 tons. That puts him into Thor's league, which he isn't

Like all the big-league comic bricks, that depends on the writer.

Whatever they want a major brick to lift, thats what he can lift. Needs of the story, etc. Realistically, they all have practically unlimited strength bcs when it matters, questions of weight dont really enter into it.

Colossus routinely toed up with the Juggernaught and also fought the Shiar Gladiator on several occasions. Jugs is on par with Thor for STR, and Colossus, while not quite as strong, was close.

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 11:20 AM

Going toe to toe is not a good measurement of strength though. Spiderman managed to mostly hold his own against Juggy and his strength is nowhere near Cain's.

all in all though I agree with the sentiment. The writer and current plot have more to do with a heroes powers and limits on them.

tiger

Jun 24th, '03, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
And all of the official Marvel canon states that Colossus becomes completely solid metal.

That has always been my understanding. They called it organic, but solid metal. Thus Magneto could throw him around

tiger

Jun 24th, '03, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Kid Chaos
all in all though I agree with the sentiment. The writer and current plot have more to do with a heroes powers and limits on them.

The abilities and powers changes with writers and converters. Some think the DD's dex would be 30+ others 20-25. Some would put Colossus str at 100 others lower.

The books/games are a good starting point and guideline. But, ultimately it's going to come down to the the taste of the writer or converter.

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 11:43 AM

I was speaking from a strictly comic book point of view. I'm not touching the interpretation end of this. ;-)

Every DM, Player, etc has their own feeling on how to translate a character from media into their game system of choice. Most agree that you go with what you can deduce from the media. You wouldn't for example give Cyclops a very high strength because he's never displayed such in the comics. As long as a conversion is in the ballpark I don't see quibbling over the details to much.

Colossus's weight is an issue to me....he's seen doing things somone with to much mass couldn't do easily. No I can't recall specific examples just a general impression from 20 years of comic collecting.

Acroyear

Jun 24th, '03, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
The writers have differed on that over the years; but I clearly remember back in the day he was referred to as being "solid organic steel"

"Solid organic osmium steel." And, hey, I never took chemistry or anything so there's no other reason for me to know that word.

He doesn't coat himself, he is solid metal (and never did weigh what he was supposed to, only in the 600 range iirc).

Since he doesn't have the properties of vibranium or anything, just being coated in metal would mean he'd die real fast from those massive impacts. Also, he's been heated up red hot (that would cook the fleshy bits inside). etc etc. He's always solid. We even saw his metal guts in one issue...

Demonsong

Jun 24th, '03, 12:15 PM

Does any one know who’s intellectual property Colossus originally was? Who came up with the idea?

tiger

Jun 24th, '03, 12:18 PM

Well his first appearance was when Clairmont started writing. So I figure either, Lee's, Clairmonts or Burns.

But all that is a guess

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Demonsong
Does any one know who’s intellectual property Colossus originally was? Who came up with the idea?

He was originally and will always be Marvel's IP. That's how their contracts are setup from what I understand.

As for who originally created him..I'm not sure exactly who's responsible but Dave Cockrum is known as a co-creator of the new x-men.

I would agree then that maybe Clairmont/Cockrum created Colossus.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Acroyear
"Solid organic osmium steel." And, hey, I never took chemistry or anything so there's no other reason for me to know that word.

He doesn't coat himself, he is solid metal (and never did weigh what he was supposed to, only in the 600 range iirc).

Since he doesn't have the properties of vibranium or anything, just being coated in metal would mean he'd die real fast from those massive impacts. Also, he's been heated up red hot (that would cook the fleshy bits inside). etc etc. He's always solid. We even saw his metal guts in one issue... Thats what Im saying; its someone else claiming its just his skin.

Killer Shrike

Jun 24th, '03, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Kid Chaos
He was originally and will always be Marvel's IP. That's how their contracts are setup from what I understand.

As for who originally created him..I'm not sure exactly who's responsible but Dave Cockrum is known as a co-creator of the new x-men.

I would agree then that maybe Clairmont/Cockrum created Colossus. Ive seen most of the "New" X-Men from Giant Sized accreditied to Clairemont. But who knows?

Colossus also had a relationship with Kitty Pryde who was IIRC one of Clairemont's many pet teen-aged girl characters. My impression of the way CC's brain worked would indicate he'd be more likely to involve characters he had a tight connection to in his little super-soap opera melodramas than characters created/controlled by other authors. Thats just my humble theory however.

Kid Chaos

Jun 24th, '03, 12:36 PM

No clue..I worked at a rather large comic chain at the time and recall talking to clairmont when he came in for a signing about the new x-men. he mentioned Cockrum's name as a co-creator of the "new x-men" which is what most people refer to as Clairmont's tenor as a writer.

I know he had a special attachment to Colossus especially from his treatment of him in Inferno.

csyphrett

Jun 24th, '03, 01:37 PM

Len Wein and Dave Cockrum created the second version of the team. Banshee, Storm, Wolverine (created earlier for the Hulk), all came from this.

white peregrine

Jun 24th, '03, 04:13 PM

from my recollections...colossus is solid organic steel when he transforms as indicated by the Marvel Universe Handbook. Even his eyes turned into organic steel due to the reference about taking a bullet to the eye in the MUH.

One of the unusual factors that would happen from time to time is wounds wound transfer from one state to the next dependant on the writer....for the most part though he was rarely injured to such a degree.

In regards to his strength. he did get more powerful in the latter days. that he rival thor in pure physical strength I can go with. he was probably one of the biggest bricks on earth in the marvel universe. remember...we're talkin purely physical strength not "hitting" strength which is where thor jumps ahead...and this is due to his hammer versus his actual physical strength.

Acroyear

Jun 25th, '03, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Thats what Im saying; its someone else claiming its just his skin.

I'sa agreein' witcha.

Acroyear

Jun 25th, '03, 12:29 PM

FYI Nightcrawler is all Cockrum. He originally WAS a demon and the original design had a black and yellow suit (exactly the same) not black and red.

In fact, Nightcrawler very nearly was a member of the LSH!

So, no, Clairmont did not design all the New X-Men (at the very least).

Kid Chaos

Jun 25th, '03, 12:33 PM

Um, right I mentioned that Clairmont himself mention Cockrum as a co-creator. He didn't get to specific as he was being hassled by a horde of raving fan boys at the time.