Breakpoint house rule

[macster]

I'm thinking of ways around the problem of breakpoints for things like INT rolls. Here's one idea I had if anyone wants to criticize it (I'm new to Hero so sorry if this topic has been beaten bloody already):

Base roll is 9+(CHAR/5), as usual.

The player makes their roll. An additional bonus may be granted depending on what they rolled and their attribute:

If (CHAR+2) is evenly divisible by 5, no bonus - the roll stands as is.

Otherwise, take the remainder of (CHAR+2)/5 and multiply by 3 i.e. [(CHAR + 2) MOD 5] x 3, if your roll is less than or equal to that number you get an additional +1 bonus.

Example:
Blackwing has an INT of 12 and needs to make a perception roll. His roll would be 9+(INT/5) = 11- and his bonus chance would be [14 MOD 5 ] x 3 = 12

He rolls 6 for perception. This roll also grants him +1 since it's <= his bonus chance of 12. So for the purposes of this roll his perception roll would be 12- (i.e. instead of making it by 5 he makes it by 6).

(Note this doesn't involve an extra roll - the same roll is used to determine success or failure and also to determine if there's a bonus.)

Mac

[Sean Waters]

I can see you are going to be trouble :thumbup:

Welcome to the boards, my friend :D

[schir1964]

This idea has been added to the Thread Linkage thread.

- Christopher Mullins

[gojira]

I haven't worked this all out, but what bugs me a little is that the bonus is a separate roll, which is going to slow down play a little.

Ideas: for each scene, the Hero gets one bonus roll. If he rolls well, then all bonuses apply for all skills in that scene. If he doesn't then no bonuses apply. Sometimes you're on, and sometimes you're not.

Alternately, you could scale all bonuses according to the bonus roll.



Skill Bonus (per scene) 3d6
Attribute MOD 5 Bonus Roll
14+ 13- 9- 6-
4 0 +1 +1 +1
3 0 0 +1 +1
2 0 0 0 +1
1 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0


Just mark your character sheet with the bonus (attribute MOD 5) number after the skill roll. So if you have a 14 INT, any INT based skill would have a (4) after the target number. For example, an INT skill with a 12- target would be recorded on your character sheet like this : 12- (4). It qualifies for a +1 bonus during any scene the player rolls a 13 or less on the bonus dice.

If the same character also had a PRE of 12, then any PRE based skills would only qualify for a +1 bonus during a scene if the bonus roll was 6 or less. (Obviously, the INT skills would qualify for a +1 bonus also if the bonus roll was 6 or less.)


I dunno if this adds anything. Seems fun knowing you've got a +1 coming on certain skills during a scene. YMMV.

[macster]

Actually I wasn't thinking of it as a separate roll. You would only roll once but if your roll happened to be within the bonus range you'd get an additional +1. I specifically didn't want any additional rolling.

I guess the downside is that if your main roll is low enough to get the bonus, then you might not need the bonus anyways!

Mac

[Derek Hiemforth]

Another option along the same lines would be -- rather than granting bonuses based on die rolls -- grant a set number of bonuses per adventure that could be used at the player's option. For example, you might say that each point of INT, beyond what's required for a breakpoint value, would grant a +1 that could be used on some INT-based task once during an adventure.

In other words, a character with INT 13 has a 12- INT-based roll all the time. At INT 14, they would have their 12- roll, plus a single +1 they could use once during an adventure. At INT 15, they'd have two +1 bonuses (though they'd have to be used separately, not "stacked" to make a +2 bonus). At INT 16 they'd have three +1 bonuses, at INT 17 they'd have four +1 bonuses, and at INT 18, they'd have the +1 all the time (because their base INT-based roll would now be 13-).

[Lord Liaden]

Erol K. Brayburt developed a detailed conversion of the various standard HERO rolls into percentiles, partly to eliminate breakpoints: http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html

[gojira]

I guess the downside is that if your main roll is low enough to get the bonus, then you might not need the bonus anyways!

Hmm, I see. Yes, that would be a downside, in my mind, to your system.


Another option along the same lines would be -- rather than granting bonuses based on die rolls -- grant a set number of bonuses per adventure that could be used at the player's option.

This is pretty cool, almost like a luck chit system such as RDU Neil uses in his house rules. I wonder if one could combine luck chits and skill bonuses into one single system....

[PhilFleischmann]

If attribute is evenly divisible by 5, no bonus - the roll stands as is.

Otherwise, take the remainder of attribute/5 and multiply by 3, if your roll is less than or equal to that number you get an additional +1 bonus.

Example:
Blackwing has an INT of 12 and needs to make a perception roll. His roll would be 9+(INT/5) = 11- and his bonus chance would be (12 MOD 5 = 2) x 3 = 6

He rolls 6 for perception. This roll also grants him +1 since it's <= his bonus chance. So for the purposes of this roll his perception roll would be 12-
interesting. I'd advise you change this to [(INT + 2) MOD 5] x 3, otherwise Graywing, with a mere 9 INT, also has an 11- roll, but would get his bonus on 12 or less - lower INT, better bonus.

I also like Derek's suggestion.

I also have been bothered by the lack of differentiation between INT scores, 8 INT is functionally the same as 12 INT (except when Adjusting).

My solution is to occasionally modify the INT Roll formula (mostly for Background INT-based skills - PS, KS, SS, etc.)

Normally, it's (INT/5)+9
But for some tasks, the specialized knowledge of the skill is more important than raw intelligence, so the roll might be calculated as (INT/6)+9, or (INT/7)+10, or (INT/8)+10, etc.
And for other tasks, basic intelligence is more important and specialized knowledge in the skill is less important, so the formula would be (INT/4)+8, or (INT/3)+8, or even (INT/2)+6, etc.

The roll is figured so that a base INT of 10 always gives an 11- roll in any case.

Using these different roll formulas, an 8 INT, a 9, a 10, an 11, and a 12 INT are all truly different from each other.

[macster]

interesting. I'd advise you change this to [(INT + 2) MOD 5] x 3, otherwise Graywing, with a mere 9 INT, also has an 11- roll, but would get his bonus on 12 or less - lower INT, better bonus.


Oops. You're absolutely right. My rookie mistake - yes the breakpoints are at 3, 8 etc.

I also liked gojira and Derek's suggestions. The problem with rolling every scene is that the rolls could prove unncessary if that attribute isn't called on. I like the idea of getting a fixed # of bonuses that you can spend when you want.

[Hugh Neilson]

I've considered a somewhat different mechanic to make every point count, though my model requires an extra roll (or, I guess, another d6 of a different colour). If your roll fails by 1, roll 1d6. If the die roll is less than your stat points past the breakpoint, you get to barely succeed.

eg. Snake Oil Sam has a 15 PRE. He rolls his Persuasion, and comes up with a 13, normally failure. He rolls that extra d6 and gets a 1 (or a 2), so he manages to convince the mark that his potion really can cure what ails ya!

As others have pointed out, the breakpoint is 3 and 8, not 5 and 0.

[gojira]

I also liked gojira and Derek's suggestions. The problem with rolling every scene is that the rolls could prove unncessary if that attribute isn't called on. I like the idea of getting a fixed # of bonuses that you can spend when you want.

Thanks! Just to clarify, as intended, the skill bonus roll is made exactly once, and affects all stat based skills. So if you roll a 10, for example, your INT skills get the bonus but your PRE skills don't. 'Course, anyone can change that, being a house rule and all. I just wanted to explain better what I was trying to do.

[macster]

I've considered a somewhat different mechanic to make every point count, though my model requires an extra roll (or, I guess, another d6 of a different colour). If your roll fails by 1, roll 1d6. If the die roll is less than your stat points past the breakpoint, you get to barely succeed.


Hmm I like that. My original attempt was in fact a 1d6 vs the mod 5 of your characteristic but it hadn't occurred to me to only do it if you're off by one. I was considering applyinig it every roll but thought that a 1/6 chance of +1 was too high for a character just over the breakpoint. Your way is better in the sense that it involves fewer rolls (i.e. only on close calls) and also isn't too much of an advantage for low characteristics.

[Vondy]

Erol K. Brayburt developed a detailed conversion of the various standard HERO rolls into percentiles, partly to eliminate breakpoints: http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html (http://www.io.com/%7Eangilas/madlab/skillsys.html)

This is an interesting idea. The only (theoretical) problem I have with it is that it uses a different bell curve in terms of probability (2 variables instead of 3 (2d10); or even 1 instead of 3 (1d100)), so its possible there would be some unintended consequences/unexpected results might arise.

Here's what I want: a system that runs on 4d4. I just like the little guys... :help:

[Vondy]

I'm thinking of ways around the...

I see what you are trying to accomplish and I'm not enamoured of breakpoints either (though I'm content to live with them), but I'm dead set against anything that adds additional rolls or bookkeeping during play. I'm a luddite when it comes to this sort of things. I want the game to run cleanly and quickly. Without going into mathematical issues that might arise (others are more suited to that), if you are going to do something like this I recommend you implement it in such a way that the necessary rolls are made, and their results noted down, at the beginning of the session.

[gojira]

Here's what I want: a system that runs on 4d4. I just like the little guys... :help:

Just get some smaller d6 dice. :D


... if you are going to do something like this I recommend you implement it in such a way that the necessary rolls are made, and their results noted down, at the beginning of the session.

That's more or less what I was trying to accomplish by having the player make one roll at the beginning of each scene. GM fiat when a scene changes, and a new roll gets made. I like fewer dice rolls also, whenever possible.

BTW, who's the new picture? I was thinking Princess Leia, but I think now that's a bit off.

[Vondy]

BTW, who's the new picture? I was thinking Princess Leia, but I think now that's a bit off.


Actually, it is Princess Leia!

In one of the recent expanded universe trilogies, when she's older, she becomes a Jedi (haven't read it).

I don't normally do chick-avatars, but I was inspired.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/d/dc/LeiaOlder.jpg

[Supreme Serpent]

OP: Is there a particular problem that you're trying to address? What is the "problem with breakpoints" that you're finding?

At first blush, this seems like all it's doing is adding a level of complexity for little play benefit. I'm sure it will make its way into HERO 6th. :p

Welcome to the boards! :D

[PhilFleischmann]

The Brayburt percentage variation, as presented, completely flattens out the bell curve. Which is fine if that's what you want. However, you could use the raw percentages of the actual 3d6 rolls as a starting point an\d extrapolate values in between to remove the breakpoints. This is more complicated, of course, but most of the work is done only once, before the game even starts (and never has to be done again for subsequent games).

So for example, a 10- roll is a 50% chance. 11- is 62.5% (let's round to 62 for simplicity). So someone with an 8 INT would have the normal 50% chance, and someone with a 13 INT would have 62%. So you could then give interpolated values:

INT d% roll
8 = 50%
9 = 53%
10 = 56%
11 = 58%
12 = 60%
13 = 62%

Or something like that. And yes, you'd have to work it out for the entire range, not just the values between 10- and 11-. But you'd only have to work it out once. And note that at the extreme ends, those interpolated values are closer and closer together.

If I have time, maybe I'll post a complete table of these values.

*****

Or for a much simpler solution, which doesn't completely differentiate all values, but does for more than the standard rules, you could say that different INT-based rolls have different breakpoints. For example, you could let Intellect Skills have breakpoints at the standard 3 and 8, but change PER rolls to breakpoints at 4 and 9, and Background skills based on INT could be at 2 and 7, and general non-skill, non-PER INT rolls at 0 and 5. Season to taste. Also quite simple and handled prior to run time.

So based on the above arrangement, someone with a 12 INT would have a base PER roll of 11-, Intellect Skills would be 11-, Raw INT rolls would be 11-, but Background Skills based on INT would be 12-. At INT 13, Intellect skills would co up to 12-, but everything else would stay the same. At 14, PER rolls would bump up to 12-, and at 15, raw INT rolls would bump to 12-.

Just brainstorming for possible ideas. Not specifically advocating any.

[Supreme Serpent]

Or for a much simpler solution, which doesn't completely differentiate all values, but does for more than the standard rules, you could say that different INT-based rolls have different breakpoints. For example, you could let Intellect Skills have breakpoints at the standard 3 and 8, but change PER rolls to breakpoints at 4 and 9, and Background skills based on INT could be at 2 and 7, and general non-skill, non-PER INT rolls at 0 and 5. Season to taste. Also quite simple and handled prior to run time.

So based on the above arrangement, someone with a 12 INT would have a base PER roll of 11-, Intellect Skills would be 11-, Raw INT rolls would be 11-, but Background Skills based on INT would be 12-. At INT 13, Intellect skills would co up to 12-, but everything else would stay the same. At 14, PER rolls would bump up to 12-, and at 15, raw INT rolls would bump to 12-.

Just brainstorming for possible ideas. Not specifically advocating any.

If the issue was "everybody just buys Ints ending in 3 and 8", I was going to suggest something along these exact lines. :thumbup:

[PhilFleischmann]

OK, now I have time. The table below shows the equivalent 3d6 "X or less" roll in the first column, then has lines for 1,2,3, and 4 pips of characteristic (usually INT in this case) above the breakpoint. I designated these as simply "+1," "+2," etc. The second column gives a simplified % chance based on the actual probability of the 3d6 roll, with extrapolated values for non-breakpoint characteristics. The third column gives a more accurate % of the 3d6 rolls.



Roll % Accurate
3- 1 0.463%
+1 1
+2 1
+3 1
+4 2
4- 2 1.852%
+1 2
+2 3
+3 3
+4 4
5- 5 4.630%
+1 5
+2 6
+3 7
+4 8
6- 9 9.260
+1 10
+2 11
+3 12
+4 14
7- 16 16.204
+1 18
+2 20
+3 22
+4 24
8- 26 25.926
+1 28
+2 30
+3 32
+4 34
9- 37 37.5
+1 39
+2 41
+3 44
+4 47
10- 50 50
+1 53
+2 56
+3 59
+4 61
11- 63 62.5
+1 66
+2 68
+3 70
+4 72
12- 74 74.074
+1 76
+2 78
+3 80
+4 82
13- 84 83.796
+1 86
+2 88
+3 89
+4 90
14- 91 90.740
+1 92
+2 93
+3 94
+4 95
15- 95 95.370
+1 96
+2 96
+3 97
+4 97
16- 98 98.148
+1 98
+2 98
+3 98
+4 99
17- 99 99.537
+1 99
+2 99
+3 99
+4 99
18- 100 100


I haven't finished it yet. But you can extrapolate the values however you like, if you prefer a different rounding-off method or whatever.

Edit: OK, it's finished now. I was called away before I could complete all the entries and was unable to get back to it until now. Enjoy! Modify as desired. Although probably less than 1% of you will actually use it.

[macster]

OP: Is there a particular problem that you're trying to address? What is the "problem with breakpoints" that you're finding?

It's just that it doesn't make sense to me that (for example) someone with above average INT (12) has no mechanical advantage over someone with below average INT (8).

I understand your point - it might be so rare it's a waste of time to fix. I admit I'm new to Hero so my concerns are theoretical. A good GM could make INT 12 have advantages over INT 8 even if they're not objective advantages. Also if you're concerned about mechanical effects you can always just make sure to buy enough INT to make it count so to speak.

[Supreme Serpent]

It's just that it doesn't make sense to me that (for example) someone with above average INT (12) has no mechanical advantage over someone with below average INT (8).

I understand your point - it might be so rare it's a waste of time to fix. I admit I'm new to Hero so my concerns are theoretical. A good GM could make INT 12 have advantages over INT 8 even if they're not objective advantages. Also if you're concerned about mechanical effects you can always just make sure to buy enough INT to make it count so to speak.

In a system that (despite the protestations of some) is at its core built to simulate superhumans, there isn't a whole lot of real, "see it in action" granularity at the low end of the scale.

One mechanical difference between 8 and 12...the 12 only has to spend one more point to get to a 13 and 12-. ;)

You could also use higher stats to break ties, if you want some mechanical effect: Int 8 and Int 12 are trying to trick each other. Each have 11- rolls. If they both roll the same, give the advantage to the Int 12.

[Lord Liaden]

One of the optional rules presented in Dark Champions is that characters with the same DEX and SPD can resolve who acts first in a Phase based on which character has the higher INT score. Since by the rulebook definition INT is a measure of information processing speed and efficiency, that's logical. In this case every point of INT has potential benefit to the character.

Regarding other HERO Characterisitics, John H. Kim wrote an interesting analysis demonstrating that these stats are more granular than many people appreciate: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

[gojira]

Actually, it is Princess Leia!
In one of the recent expanded universe trilogies, when she's older, she becomes a Jedi (haven't read it).

Cool. I haven't been a big Star Wars fan since George Lucas mucked it all up (and I mean those damn mini-Chewies in Return of the Jedi) but I hear on the con grapevine that the third party stuff is actually pretty good.

That is a nice pic, me like.

[Vondy]

Cool. I haven't been a big Star Wars fan since George Lucas mucked it all up (and I mean those damn mini-Chewies in Return of the Jedi) but I hear on the con grapevine that the third party stuff is actually pretty good.

That is a nice pic, me like.

The expanded universe materials are hit and miss, in my experience, but on the whole they're pretty good. You just have to find the good writers and stick with them. And some big names (sci-fi wise) have written some of it. And Lucas has figured out that his fans know more about his universe than he does. He frequently explains his errors with fan theories, and has retconned a good amount of expanded universe materials into the films. The official site includes the EU stuff as a layer of canon. This had nothing to do with breakpoints. I'll cease and disist.

[PhilFleischmann]

I finished the table, now (post 21). And yes, I realize it was probably a waste of time.

[torchwolf]

One of the optional rules presented in Dark Champions is that characters with the same DEX and SPD can resolve who acts first in a Phase based on which character has the higher INT score. Since by the rulebook definition INT is a measure of information processing speed and efficiency, that's logical. In this case every point of INT has potential benefit to the character.

Regarding other HERO Characterisitics, John H. Kim wrote an interesting analysis demonstrating that these stats are more granular than many people appreciate: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html
Interesting comparison table... still, a case could be made for changing the base rolls to 8+(CHAR/3) to get more bang for the buck (well, CP). However, that would of course increase a Char Roll at a Char value of 29 to no less than 18- (as opposed to currently 15-).
Possible variation: adding an automatic Bonus Effect to a Skill (or Char) Roll:
If normal Roll succeeds, add Bonus Effect of [(CHAR/3)-3]
This would give a better result if Char is 11+ and a worse result if Char is 7-

I still think it's weird that the 5ER benchmarks have so little to do with the breakpoints. Suppose the original designers figured 8-12 as average back then, although 8-10 became human average somewhere around 3rd Ed.