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Brandi

Jun 20th, '03, 09:33 PM

I know that creating a permanently shrunk hero is straightforward enough, but I'm considering the matter of a permanently tiny-- and not super-strong-- creature.

An intelligent rat.

Can one just buy STR down to -20 and figure movement accordingly for being quite small and light?

Lord Liaden

Jun 20th, '03, 11:15 PM

That's pretty much the way the HERO System Bestiary does it, along with giving the rat a 10-point Physical Limitation: Tiny (Frequently, Slightly Impairing).

Bestiary has extensive guidelines for building creatures that are inherently smaller or larger than human, as well as other abilities and limitations inherent to animals, and tons of creature writeups (including rats). Well worth buying whatever genre you play.

Brandi

Jun 21st, '03, 08:57 AM

Okay, so I was following in the right direction. Since funds are a bit iffy I can at least borrow a friend's copy of Bestiary for now. I suppose this little guy will have abnormal END to power his powers, although maybe I can buy it with just that limitation so we don't have a rat who can run a marathon...

Captain Obvious

Jun 21st, '03, 09:39 AM

You can give the rat an END reserve for its powers, and make it run with its own physical END....

Barton

Jun 21st, '03, 09:58 AM

A rat could be a great Champions character. You could easily add poison immunity (many wild rats are partially or fully immune to commonly used rodenticides). Rats have a bone structure that allows more compression, you might add damage resistence. The tail could also be used as an attack (something that real rats do not do). Rats are natural acrobats, and of course add clinging, climbing, and leaping.
My wife played a giant rat character Ratigan. This rat was 6' long with a streching tail and martial arts skills. It disadvantages were a very bad smell and dumb as a rock.

Lord Liaden

Jun 21st, '03, 10:19 AM

Barton, we need to find you a good rat avatar; this is obviously your "thing". :cool:

Do you prefer realistic, horror exaggerated, or comical/cartoony?

Barton

Jun 21st, '03, 10:47 AM

I have not found a good rat avatar yet....

I have pet rats and they are great pets. They are very smart and adaptable creatures.

I believe a realistically played rat character is very interesting. The rat shape will allow it squeeze into small spaces (an excellent thing for spying). The small size will make it tough to see and hit. A rat's paws while not as complex as human hands has amazing dexterity (they can grasp food and move levers and bars; I had to use wire to secure a cage once the rats figured out how to use the latch). Rat's front teeth are quite tough and sharp. I had a pet rat actually chew thru a thick piece of cardboard (in the wild rats can chew thru wood and even if hungry enough thin cement)

You could always make the rat a metalist. The rat could also have small tools (lockpicks or electronic bugs). The rat might have a posion bite (say a 1pt KA linked to a slower acting posion, nasty).

AlHazred

Jun 21st, '03, 11:20 AM

Reminds me of a Champions campaign a friend ran at college where everybody played him/herself with superpowers. The main villains were these hyper-intelligent squirrels (squirrels were endemic in Hoboken) who had Mind Control powers and were taking over the city. Don't remember much else except that when people realized the President of the college was Mind Controlled, it was a really good excuse to beat on him...

lemming

Jun 21st, '03, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Barton
Rat's front teeth are quite tough and sharp. I had a pet rat actually chew thru a thick piece of cardboard (in the wild rats can chew thru wood and even if hungry enough thin cement)
They'll go through thick cement eventually. I grew up on a farm and we wound with holes dug through the cement floor of the chicken house from rats.
A super rat could have tunnelling.

For an avatar, this (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/j/a/jameyson/rat.jpg.html) would be cool, but I'd check with the artist before shrinking and using it.

Brandi

Jun 21st, '03, 02:39 PM

So far I'm leaning towards 'physically normal rat with disturbingly powerful psi talents.'

Barton

Jun 21st, '03, 06:17 PM

Remember to add night vision, rats see VERY well in very dim light.
A possible disadvantage would be nocturnal. Rats by nature are nocturnal.

Brandi

Jul 6th, '03, 05:56 PM

Performing a bit of thread necromancy here...

I was thinking some more about Mr. Squeak (who's still a work in progress), and how I would model the rat's ability to gnaw through something like concrete...

I'm figuring Tunneling 1" through DEF 6, with Takes Extra Time as a limitation-- a normal rat can't go through 1" of ANYTHING in a phase, except *maybe* Jello.

But how much extra time should it take? I'm figuring between 20 minutes and an hour, or would it actually be a bit less?

Barton

Jul 6th, '03, 08:16 PM

Mr. Squeak .... great name!!!
Figure 20min to chew up unreinforced concrete. A determined rat is a very destructive creature.

Tech

Jul 8th, '03, 08:28 AM

Thanks, everyone. Now, I know more about rats than I ever knew before (or wanted to know). :)

Barton

Jul 8th, '03, 09:29 AM

Could you post Mr. Squeek?, I would love to see the final writeup.

I think a good quote for Mr. Squeek could be
"THEY CALL ME MR. SQUEEK!"

BishopofB&W

Jul 8th, '03, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Barton
A rat could be a great Champions character. You could easily add poison immunity (many wild rats are partially or fully immune to commonly used rodenticides). Rats have a bone structure that allows more compression, you might add damage resistence. The tail could also be used as an attack (something that real rats do not do). Rats are natural acrobats, and of course add clinging, climbing, and leaping.
My wife played a giant rat character Ratigan. This rat was 6' long with a streching tail and martial arts skills. It disadvantages were a very bad smell and dumb as a rock.

Dumb as a rock? But Ratigan was the rodent Napoleon of Crime! Maybe it was just an act.:)

Barton

Jul 8th, '03, 12:40 PM

>>Dumb as a rock? But Ratigan was the rodent Napoleon of >>Crime! Maybe it was just an act.

This character was played in a light hearted way by my wife. She did fully understand all of the Champions mechanics at the time and she found it comfortable to play a "dumb" character. She had fun, and now she plays in two gaming groups.

Brandi

Jul 11th, '03, 02:18 AM

Here's a tentative writeup of Mr. Squeak, based on Bestiary's Tiny Animal template. Quite a few things may still be subject to change: for instance, I don't know if the GM would recommend Armor over Force Field or if he might not even recommend a higher amount of PD/ED in it (he suggested it in case an explosion or Area Effect attack occurred, as he wasn't sure a creature this size can properly take a Dive for Cover maneuver). Similarly, if he allows me to let Squeak, under extenuating circumstances, use Personal END for a 'last ditch' use of a power when the END Reserve hasn't recovered, I might be able to lower the overall cost of the Multipower and Psychokinetic shield...

Mr. Squeak

Player: Brandi Weed

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">-20  </td><td>STR</td><td>-30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>DEX</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>CON</td><td>6</td></tr><tr><td align="right">3  </td><td>BODY</td><td>-14</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>INT</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>EGO</td><td>20</td></tr><tr><td align="right">1  </td><td>PRE</td><td>-9</td></tr><tr><td align="right">8  </td><td>COM</td><td>-1</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">2/12  </td><td>PD</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">3/13  </td><td>ED</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4  </td><td>SPD</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">3  </td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">26  </td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>STUN</td><td>3</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">1"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>-10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">1"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>-1</td></tr><tr><td align="right">1"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>1</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 7

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">6  </td><td>Animal Senses: Enhanced Perception (+2 to PER Rolls for All Sense Groups) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Bite: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 0d6 +1 (plus STR) (vs. PD) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Animal Senses: Nightvision </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">40  </td><td>Tiny: +8 with DCV </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">9  </td><td>Rats Can Chew Through Concrete, given enough time...: Tunneling 1" through 6 DEF material (20 Active Points); Gradual Effect 20 Minutes (-1), Custom Modifier (Only when gnawing) (-1/4) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>Resistant to Poisons: Power Defense (15 points) (15 Active Points); Only Works Against Poisons/Chemicals/Drugs Limited Type of Attack (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">75  </td><td>Telepathy 10d6, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (75 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">80  </td><td>Mental Powers: Multipower, 80-point reserve </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7u  </td><td>1) Mind Scan 12d6, Power Can Draw END from Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (75 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">7</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7u  </td><td>2) Mind Control 12d6, Power Can Draw END from Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (75 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">7</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7u  </td><td>3) Psychokinesis: Telekinesis (15 STR), Fine Manipulation, Power Can Draw END from Character or END Reserve (+1/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (73 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">7</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7u  </td><td>4) Ego Attack 6d6, Power Can Draw END from Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (75 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">7</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">37  </td><td>Psychokinetic Barrier: Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Power Can Draw END from Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (37 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">11  </td><td>Endurance Reserve (40 END, 10 REC) Reserve: (14 Active Points) REC: (10 Active Points); Personal REC (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 306

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Climbing 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">6  </td><td>Concealment (13 Active Points); Self Only (-1) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Stealth 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Cramming  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Computer Programming 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Electronics 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Mechanics 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Inventor 8- </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 33

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Talent</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Eidetic Memory </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Speed Reading (x10) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Lightsleep </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Danger Sense (Intuitional) 13- </td></tr></table>Talents Cost: 22

Total Character Cost: 368

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Intelligent Rat (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Tiny (.15m, .25kg, +12" KB) (All the Time; Greatly Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Mute (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Thinks somewhat like an animal (Frequently; Slightly Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Animal/Valuable Property (Very Frequently; Minor) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Fear of Fire (Uncommon; Strong) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Overconfident (Very Common; Moderate) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Doesn't Lie (Common; Strong) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Vulnerability: 2 x STUN Mental Powers (Uncommon) </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 120

Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 48
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

I notice that with the +1/4 Can use Personal END or Reserve modifier that he's over cost. I may have to hash that out with my GM, or just drop it.

Actually, can that modifier be just applied to the Multipower Reserve, since it's on every slot, or is that illegal?

Barton

Jul 11th, '03, 10:14 AM

Thanks for posting Mr. Squeak. I like him as a character. Would it be okay for me to use him as a NPC in my game?

>> I don't know if the GM would recommend Armor over >>Force Field or if he might not even recommend a higher >>amount of PD/ED in it (he suggested it in case an explosion >>or Area Effect attack occurred, as he wasn't sure a >>creature this size can properly take a Dive for Cover
AFIK any creature can dive for cover, the question is can it physically get clear being so small? A great question to post in the HERO question section. I would rule yes. Rats can jump several feet at a time. I would personally take some Armor, it is nice to have.

I would lower its COM, if you want him to be thought of by others as a "dirty rat". You might want to raise body or stun, both are very good to have at high values.
My wife once played a giant rat character Ratigan, with a disadvantage of terrible smell!

Lightsleep... Not all rats sleep lightly, however one of my pet rats was a heavy sleeper. Most wild rats can awaken with the smallest sound.
Contortionist is a skill I might take. Rats are very good at wiggling out of your hands (in the wild it makes it harder for birds of prey to hold on to them).

What "every creature" skill(s) is your GM going to allow you to have? Controntionist should be one of them IMHO.

As a GM, the Psychological Limitation: Doesn't Lie (Common; Strong) would be very fun! Watch for your GM to use that "against" you.
FYI pets rats are good "con artists". They learn quickly to hide food and make it look like they are hungry, they learn to "beg" from people (especially small children), and they steal food from each other.

Another possible psychological limitation is agroaphobia (not sure if spelled right). This is fear of open spaces. Rats will if they can stay under cover or near walls. They will avoid open spaces (this is to avoid birds of prey and other preditors).

>>Actually, can that modifier be just applied to the >>Multipower Reserve, since it's on every slot, or is that >>illegal?
Post this question, I am not 100% sure of the answer.

Tech

Jul 11th, '03, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Barton
Could you post Mr. Squeek?, I would love to see the final writeup.

I think a good quote for Mr. Squeek could be
"THEY CALL ME MR. SQUEEK!"

Ooo! Me, too! Me, too! Let's see Mr. Squeek.

Brandi

Jul 11th, '03, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Barton
Thanks for posting Mr. Squeak. I like him as a character. Would it be okay for me to use him as a NPC in my game?

I don't see why not. Feel free to rework him as needed.

I would lower its COM, if you want him to be thought of by others as a "dirty rat". You might want to raise body or stun, both are very good to have at high values.

Actually, he's a lab rat at the superkids' high school who mutated recently (the Lightsleep is a side effect of this). I figure he's cleanly enough but could be one of those oddball semi-hairless rats like this guy (http://www.rodentfancy.com/rmfe/dblrex.jpg), so he may not be all that ugly...

Contortionist is a skill I might take. Rats are very good at wiggling out of your hands (in the wild it makes it harder for birds of prey to hold on to them).

What "every creature" skill(s) is your GM going to allow you to have? Controntionist should be one of them IMHO.

I don't think Jared (the GM) knows, to be honest.

As a GM, the Psychological Limitation: Doesn't Lie (Common; Strong) would be very fun! Watch for your GM to use that "against" you.
FYI pets rats are good "con artists". They learn quickly to hide food and make it look like they are hungry, they learn to "beg" from people (especially small children), and they steal food from each other.

The way I thought of the Psych Lim is that the human concept of the lie hasn't really occurred to him. He can refrain from talking if he thinks he should (ie if someone asks him for something like a password) but basically diplomatic abilities are right out. The stealing of food I figured was part of the 'Thinks somewhat like an animal' Psych Lim-- the concept of property beyond, 'If I can get it, it's mine' also hasn't really occurred to him...

The agoraphobia is a good suggestion. I think I'll put that in. Right now, I'm basically trying to balance having the character be effective with not having him be TOO effective, if you get my drift; I could probably up the END Reserve and maybe the armor but I'm a bit hesitant as to just how much I should.

BTW, since Squeak can only commuicate telepathically, should I buy the +1/4 Telepathic adder for his Mind Control or is it fine as is?

Pattern Ghost

Jul 11th, '03, 07:00 PM

Since his Telepathy is outside the multi, he could just establish telepathic contact, then use the Mind Control. Only hitch is that you'd have to overcome the target's ego twice, once for the TP and once for the MC. Your GM might also make you take two phases, if he considers the Telepathy an attack. So, the telepathic command option might be a good idea, but not entirely necessary.

I'm not sure I'd allow the "only while gnawing" modifier on the tunnelling. What's the rationale behind it? It doesn't seem particularly limiting, especially considering that the character doesn't communicate with speach, so having his mouth busy isn't such a big deal. It's also going to be assumed that the character is using some body part to do the tunnelling with.

Brandi

Jul 11th, '03, 09:23 PM

The gnawing limitation was simply to note that rats don't seem to be particularly good diggers, so he wouldn't necessarily be good at digging through soil, even soft soil, but could chew into a tree or such.

Maybe Barton can tell me if I'm guessing right. :D

Pattern Ghost

Jul 11th, '03, 10:01 PM

That makes sense.

Barton

Sep 2nd, '04, 10:52 AM

Update to all Mr. Squeek fans:
He was used in two GenCon Indy 2004 games.

He was used in my Chicago Brawl (a skrimish game, using Heroclix minitures). He was played by a father (his son played that side's brick) and he almost "stole the show". The combat took place out side of a bank at 2AM and Mr. Squeek hid in the darkness. Mental attacks/controls were highly effective! You can not hit what you can not see. It also demonstrated to the players that powerful things can come in small packages. A superhero does not need to be big or strong to be effective.

He was used in another game where his mental powers were effective at making a hidden villian reveal himself and ruin a great surprise attack. In the same game he begged for food and got Ho-Ho's and IronClad (from the Champions) ate one of them. He called them "combat rations".

The players who played the intellegent furball liked him. Thanks, Brandi for letting me use him!

PoorWandering 1

Sep 2nd, '04, 01:06 PM

Brandi, Have you read "The Amazing Maurice and his educated rodents" by Terry Pratchett? It has lost of good ideas for intelligent rat behavior and there is allways NIMH.