Discourse on Fantasy Hero

[shentino]

What's it all about? What makes it special, and different from generic HERO?

Basically, I'd like a blurb about it. I'm utter newbie at fantasy but was in a few sessions under a GM as Defender in Champions. So, all I'm familiar with is the nuts and bolts of playing.

Please be both verbose and simple.

[Doc Democracy]

I guess that the answer to your question (given that HERO is about being generic) is that there is no difference between bog standard HERO and Fantasy Hero.

The idea behind a genre book like Fantasy Hero is to run through the genre, explaining the variety of ways to tell fantasy stories and the staples within each variety of fantasy.

What the Fantasy Hero book should do for you is aid you in deciding the look and feel of the fantasy game that you want to run and then some hints in how to achieve that look and feel using the HERO system.

This is the USP of HERO. You can have the look and feel that you want in your game, not the one that comes in the box (as with most other games). There is more upfront owrk for the GM depending on how tightly controlled they want the look and feel of the game but it can be ultimately more satisfying to get just what you want out of your game.


Doc

[Thia Halmades]

It's the core text that gives you all the necessary tools to run a Fantasy Campaign using the HERO system. It's design is built around helping you build a character, define a world, develop a magic system, and walk you through the genre tropes of Fantasy RP, as pioneered by d20, but without a lot of the mechanical nuances of that system. If you're familiar with HERO, then using it won't be all that hard.

Fantasy HERO is really an overview of the genre, and how it operates, and how to make best use of the tropes that are in it. There's also an extensive essay in the beginning that details the differences among various Fantasy settings, whether Urban Fantasy, High Fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, whichever. it includes rules for mass combat (or mosh combat, depending on what your group calls it), I think there might be a few monster examples, and some character write ups.

What the book does, really, is give you the tools. What it does NOT do is provide an endless list of spells (Fantasy Grimoire I & II) or a complete bestiary (Monsters, Minions & Maruaders, aka MM&M, or the HERO System Bestiary, or either of the Asian Bestiaries (AB I & AB II). Those texts are devoted more too allowing you to pull out monsters for encounters as you see fit.

Fantasy HERO is not a setting book - it does not go into details about Tuala Morn (pending this winter, we think), Valdorian Age or the Turakian Age (both available now) which are the HERO setting books for Fantasy (Valdorian is Sword & Sorcery, Turakian is High Fantasy, IIRC). So the breakdown is really:

- Core text describing basic ideas and how to implement them
- Monster Texts
- Magic/Spellbook texts (based on the Turakian Age, I should mention that)
- Additional rules-specific texts (Hero Combat Handbook, Hero Equipment Guide)

[hancock.tom]

I thought the same thing as the original poster at one point. Then I set about trying to do the grunt work to put together a FH campaign. Holy cow, its a lot of work, even with lots of internet resources.

Fantasy Hero does the legwork when you need the legwork done, with great magic systems, armor systems, etc. PLUS it is absolutely chock full of advice on how to do things if you want to do them yourself.

[hancock.tom]

Damn, I post in a thread and everyone packs up their books and goes home ;)

[Dale A. Ward]

Damn, I post in a thread and everyone packs up their books and goes home ;)

It's the avatar, man... creeps us out, ya know? :eg:

[Manic Typist]

Just as a point, we might also offer some tidbits on what is special about Fantasy Hero as a genre.

[ghost-angel]

I'm not entirely sure what shentino is actually asking.

How to play Fantasy Hero as a genre of Hero System. Or what Fantasy, as a whole, is.

A little clarification please?

[Vondy]

Like Ghost-Angel I'm not entirely sure what the question is.

[Old Man]

But Fantasy Hero is the answer, that's for damn sure.

[Susano]

But Fantasy Hero is the answer, that's for damn sure.

I thought the answer was blowin' in the wind?

[lensman]

Simple: Fantasy Hero is prism for the light of imagination & mechanics in order to display the colors of genre.

Verbose: There is a involved history to gaming. Hero is considered by some a third generation system or construction set system. Fantasy hero in that light is a manuel for how to build a fantasy genre with the Hero system.
One can take the same tools and material with physics and make a airplane, car, 18 wheeler or motorcycle.
Rules can be considered physics in gaming. A lot of rules that apply to gritty heroic game that do not or are not applied to a superheroic game.
Fantasy hero is better for utter newbies because it brings into greater clarity those things which, in the authors mind, helps to aid the fantasy genre.

[bigdamnhero]

What's it all about? What makes it special, and different from generic HERO?

I read this as asking “How is a Fantasy Hero game different from the Champions games I’ve played?”

Mechanically, very similar at the core. Characters are built using the same characteristics, skills, powers etc as supers, but on fewer points -- typically 100-150 instead of 350. On the other hand, in many FH games PCs don’t have to pay character points for equipment the way they do in Champions; you can just walk in to a blacksmith’s and buy a sword.

With the exception of spell-casters, most fantasy characters tend to emphasize skills more than most supers. (Yes, I know that’s a gross generalization and doesn’t always apply. But in general.)

Spells are built using the same Powers as superhero abilities, but typically have a lot more Limitations to make them harder to use -- harder for the character, that is, not the player. So for example a super’s Laser Eyebeam and a wizard’s Fire Blast might both be built as Energy Blasts, but the later might require Gestures, Incantations, Require a Skill Roll, etc. So even tho the core mechanics are the same, they “feel” very different.

Basic combat mechanics are the same, but most FH games I’ve played use very different optional rules from Champions: no to Knockback; yes to Hit Location, Bleeding, etc. So the combat tends to feel less “comic book” and more "realistic."

In terms of plot, it varies a lot from campaign to campaign. Many (again, not all) FH games tend to have a smaller focus than most Champions games; the heroes may be a big deal locally, but saving the world is something you work up to, rather than another day on the job.

So short version: basically the same game mechanics, but tweaked to better reflect the fantasy genre. Does that help?

[Killer Shrike]

In most other Fantasy RPGs, the setting, the scope of what is and is not possible, how magic works, what kind of abilities characters can have, etc are all defined by the designers of that game.

If you like the decisions they have made, and dont want to do anything custom then this is perfectly acceptable...in fact, its optimal.

You may even be able to stray a bit from the operating parameters of a particular game, to differing degree based upon the flexibility of a particular system / setting combination. If you like the basic elements of a game, but just want to tweak it a tad this is probably good enough for you.


However, if you have very specific ideas about how your Fantasy game should run, what the setting should be like, what kinds of abilities characters can have, the scope at which the game is played, the way the magic works, and so on then you may find yourself fighting the limitations of other game systems if you try to express your ideas within the confines of their design.

That's where the HERO System comes into its strength for you. You can implement the core HERO rules to express your vision of how Fantasy should be, and all the particulars of how your world works, etc etc. That's what makes it special.

Its also why there is so much diffusion around the idea of Fantasy HERO. There is no such thing as a single unified Fantasy HERO concept that everyone can agree on as the meaning for "Fantasy HERO". Instead there are a nigh-infinite array of implementations of specific combinations of HERO System elements within the broad umbrella of a "fantasy" genre.

Thus a Savage Earth campaign is very different from a San'Dora, Turakian Age, Valodoria Age, GreyHERO, RealmsHERO, RuneHERO, LotRHERO, or HarnHERO campaign, for instance. There are different operating assumptions, different optional rules in use, different levels of "realism" applied, etc.


I refer to the variation between specific implementations as "paradigms", which rest below sub-genres like so: Genre->SubGenre->Paradigm.

This document discusses several generic Paradigms and gives worksheets indicating different operating assumptions as a thinking exercise, and a blank Paradigm Worksheet is also provided so that you can, if you wish, fill it in to reflect your own campaign implementation as a reference document:

Fantasy HERO Paradigms (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/campaignParadigms.shtml)

[CourtFool]

I love you, Killer Shrike, but I can not help but feel like I am studying for a college exam every time I read your stuff.

[Killer Shrike]

I love you, Killer Shrike, but I can not help but feel like I am studying for a college exam every time I read your stuff.

Oh, sorry...how about:

Fantsy HERO goood. You make good fun with Fantsy HERO!

;)

[Curufea]

Tree pretty, fire bad :)

Dang, I have to spread more rep around first...

[keithcurtis]

Killer Shrike said "Savage Earth". That gets rep.

Keith "It's all about me" Curtis

[Curufea]

Oh? Is that still going?

;-p

[keithcurtis]

Not lately. :(

Keith "Severe Gamemaster's block" Curtis

[Curufea]

Are you the kind of GM that likes ideas from almost total strangers, or do you prefer to work it out for yourself?

[keithcurtis]

I've got no problems with accepting ideas, but that's not the problem, I've got a jillion ideas. I merely lack the will to execute them. It's burnout, or malaise or something.
I just have to do other stuff for a while.

Keith "But thanks for asking and feel free to make suggestions anytime" Curtis

[Curufea]

Actually, for a lack of will, I'd suggest a storytelling game rather than new ideas for a campaign. A Baron Munchausen in the campaign setting - the telling of tall tales. Players (including the GM) take their favourite PCs or NPCs -doesn't matter what time period or whether they are dead or alive. Just as something different that could lead to plot ideas later.

[shentino]

Um, yeah thanks y'all :P

So I guess that Fantasy hero is just a label for a kind of play enabled by the HERO system, as opposed to a specific division thereof.

[Killer Shrike]

Um, yeah thanks y'all :P

So I guess that Fantasy hero is just a label for a kind of play enabled by the HERO system, as opposed to a specific division thereof.

Just like all things HERO, its just a genre flavored implementation of the core rules.

[Old Man]

I've got no problems with accepting ideas, but that's not the problem, I've got a jillion ideas. I merely lack the will to execute them. It's burnout, or malaise or something.
I just have to do other stuff for a while.

What you should do, then, is go out and kill a few people on the street, and then put the resulting XP into EGO.

[bigdamnhero]

So I guess that Fantasy hero is just a label for a kind of play enabled by the HERO system, as opposed to a specific division thereof.
Not exactly. Try it this way: if you're using the Hero System to play superheroes, we call that game Champions. If you're using Hero to play sci-fi, we call it Star Hero. If you're using it to play Fantasy, we call it Fantasy Hero. Same basic rules, but with different options to better enable the "feel" of the specific genre.

The term Fantasy Hero (tm) also refers to the line of fantasy supplements DOJ publishes. Theoretically, you could play Fantasy Hero just using the core rules, without ever owning any of the Fantasy Hero (tm) books. But the FH books will make your job a gazillion times easier. :)

[Dale A. Ward]

That's pretty much what he said, but a lot of other folks did too, so I think the case is solved.

By the way, BDH... the attribution for the quote in your sig is incorrect. That line was actually said by WKRP's ad agent, Herb Tarlek (played by Frank Bonner).

[bigdamnhero]

By the way, BDH... the attribution for the quote in your sig is incorrect. That line was actually said by WKRP's ad agent, Herb Tarlek (played by Frank Bonner).
Sorry, no points for you. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZByndN_ffyw

Edit: Hadn't seen that episode in probably 15 years, but can still quote Les' commentary nearly verbatim.

[Killer Shrike]

Now thats funny. WKRP was good times.

[Dale A. Ward]

OOOOH NOOOOO!! :eek:

I've actually been pwned in a trivia-related incident!!

Will I ever live down the shame?!? :confused:

Oh, how the mighty have fallen!!







It's almost like watching Conan of Cimmeria getting his butt kicked by a street punk! :o

[Killer Shrike]

It's almost like watching Conan of Cimmeria getting his butt kicked by a street punk! :o

Are you calling BDH a punk? Sounds like fightin words to me....:eg:

[keithcurtis]

To further derail, I saw a blurb last night for Conan the Barbarian that went like:

"Conan, an Ex-Pitfighter recovers his father's sword from a Snake King with the help of a wizard, a Mongol and a queen."

Keith "Wrong on so many levels" Curtis

[Susano]

To further derail, I saw a blurb last night for Conan the Barbarian that went like:

"Conan, an Ex-Pitfighter recovers his father's sword from a Snake King with the help of a wizard, a Mongol and a queen."

Keith "Wrong on so many levels" Curtis

Words fail me.

[Lightning91]

I haven't seen anything get derailed this badly, since the last time I watched Harrison Ford in The Fugitive! :help:

[L. Marcus]

. . . So, how about the weather?

[ghost-angel]

To further derail, I saw a blurb last night for Conan the Barbarian that went like:

"Conan, an Ex-Pitfighter recovers his father's sword from a Snake King with the help of a wizard, a Mongol and a queen."

Keith "Wrong on so many levels" Curtis

:jawdrop:

[bigdamnhero]

Are you calling BDH a punk? Sounds like fightin words to me....:eg:
:lol: When it comes to trivia, I'm a total lightweight. But I knew that one. :D

[Dale A. Ward]

~snicker~

I'm shuttin' up before I get myself in more trouble! :p

[Old Man]

Words fail me.

Words failed that copywriter too, apparently.

Or the other way around.

[Thia Halmades]

Somewhere, there was a critical failure. I'm certain of it.

[ghost-angel]

Somewhere, there was a critical failure. I'm certain of it.

Yes, it occured between the ears of the person who wrote that description.

[arcady]

In most other Fantasy RPGs, the setting, the scope of what is and is not possible, how magic works, what kind of abilities characters can have, etc are all defined by the designers of that game.This is the better way to look at it.

Not, how if Fantasy Hero different from other forms of Hero, but;
'why choose Fantasy Hero over some other fantasy RPG, such as DnD?'

The answer to that lies largely in customizability on both ends.

On the back end - setting up the game and setting, the GM has the ability to define a magic system and a list of species, magical devices, and so on, all within the structure of the ruleset and without any need for 'house rule guesses at balance'.

On the front end, players have the ability to nearly completely control every aspect of their characters and character development. There are no frames they have to fit into. There might be templates to guide them, but these don't include long lists of the path they must follow through their character lifecycle and the things they can never master... The structure of a character is in the hands of the player.

During play, well, the game system is very tactical - you know the benefits from seeing it in Champions. In Fantasy Hero it runs even smoother as the things that might slow down a game of Hero are less present, and at lower values, or more in common (such as speed - the greatest factor in slowing Champions is when you have very different speed scores across multiple characters - but in Fantasy Hero most of the characters will have the same score - be it 3, 4, or whatever... most of them will act at similar times making tracking much smoother).

Often, Fantasy Hero can do another game better than that game does itself. Sit down and think of the "feel" of Dungeons and Dragons. Make a 10 item list of the things in that feel that are cool.

Chances are, Fantasy Hero does at least 7 of those things better. It might even do all 10 if your list looks anything like mine. For me, when I bought Turakian Age, one of the official Fantasy Hero settings - my biggest impression was "This is DnD done better than DnD does it."

Do the same test with GURPS Fantasy, and it is even easier to see... :smoke:

Much of the time, Fantasy Hero can simulate another game's feel better because where that game has negative baggage, Fantasy Hero won't.

What are the top things about DnD many people do not like? Chances are most of the items you put into that list are not present in Fantasy Hero. And some of those things probably also get in the way of getting across the very feel DnD tries to get across - at least for a good number of people. Many people who play DnD just get used to 'putting up with' the things in this list in order to gain access to the things in the other list.

The same analysis holds for many other Fantasy Games.

At least in my opinion.

So... that's how Fantasy Hero is different for me. It does everybody else better at the very things everybody else claims are special about them.

[bigdamnhero]

This is the better way to look at it.

Not, how if Fantasy Hero different from other forms of Hero, but;
'why choose Fantasy Hero over some other fantasy RPG, such as DnD?'
Except that the OP has never played D&D or any other fantasy RPG. As I understood it, we was asking how FH compared to the Champions game he had played. So good answer, but wrong question maybe.

[arcady]

Except that the OP has never played D&D or any other fantasy RPG. As I understood it, we was asking how FH compared to the Champions game he had played. So good answer, but wrong question maybe.
Which is why I chose to ignore that, as it even says in the part you quoted.

The question, in my opinion, was simply not the right way to look at the value of Fantasy Hero.

[atlascott]

There are meta-features of Fantasy Gaming which MOST players expect.

Alot of these meta-features are based on experience with D&D.

Which, in turn, was based upon alot of sword and sorcery fantasy, most notably The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

We HERO-philes are tinkerers, so we want our own special, tweaked world, with non-standard histories, magic systems, etc.

But alot of RPG'ers want a classic, black and white, good and evil world where magic works as they have come to know from books, and yes, D&D.

None of the magic systems that have been hacked together to fit into HERO system rules work very well, and I have tried about 3. and read virtually all of them.

Magic is either so hobbled that no one wants it, or it is so powerful that it borders on unbalancing.

Rules that were designed to mimic superheroic combat do not translate well to sword and sorcery, unless you tweak them, and tweak them, and tweak them.

And even then, smart players make their PC's nigh invincible with skill levels in short order. "Ok, with my DEX, and the combat maneuver and my skills levels, my OCV is 12. Do I hit the DCV 5 orc?" Not too much fun. And if you make the orc DCV 10, then the wizard and theif have zero point zero 3 percent change of ever hitting the orc.

Character progress is more linear than with 3rd Ed D&D, though.

And actually running a FH game is a real assignment.

You have to make an awful lot of decisions without knowing ahead of time how they are going to play out or affect game balance.

Ever try to tell a player who built his character with points that you are changing the magic system mid-campaign? Doesn't work too well.

I hate to say it, but using the HERO system for Fantasy is losing its lustre for me.

I find myself doing way too much work to make the rules fit into the game world properly. And almost every novel situation or challenge forces me to rethink my old campaign/game rule decisions.

I really had none of these problems for superheroic or modern, though, and the HERO system is still my favorite system.

My main point is that unless you want to make preparing, planning, and running a FH game at least a legitimate part-time job, you are going to be missing things.

[Killer Shrike]

Atlasscott, while your experiences sound less than rosy, there are many of us with experiences that sharply differ.

As much as I hate to say it, it may be possible that you are making it harder than it has to be.

[kiahoga]

Altascott now you say that GMing fantasy hero takes more prep that say champions and i find that an interesting thing for Hero System even fantasy hero is inheritly balanced for everything is derived from strength. Now the magic system your using is the hardest thing you have to do , but once done everything else is simple really.

Also I don't know about other GM's but when prepping a game I don't set anything in stone till i know what my players a bringing to the table then i finish up my preparation.

[Markdoc]

Atlasscott, while your experiences sound less than rosy, there are many of us with experiences that sharply differ.

As much as I hate to say it, it may be possible that you are making it harder than it has to be.

Agreed. I've been using Hero for Fantasy for longer than there's been a Fantasy Hero (TM) and haven't had this problem - ever.

Setup does take more work - especially with regard to magic - since you are not pulling it straight out of a book. It is quite possible to make a balanced magic system (easier than in d20, actually looking at seething horrors like the Mystic Theurge) - I have one in my current game.

The issue of balance, in my experience, comes up when someone comes up with a reallly cool idea (TM) which they translate to the game (and this happens in any system, not just in Hero) or when people do violence to the system ("I want mages to have lots of spells, so I'm going to divide all real costs by 3" - followed by "Waaa! The system is unbalanced!").

My set up for next week's game consisted of one evening's work - sketch up a map of a village and a palace, brief personality sketches of local personalities (no Stat.s) and stats and backstory for a bunch of generic NPCs fighter/guards (no time taken - I just reused the standard ones) and two major NPCs - a mage and an assassin type. All in all, it took me maybe 30 minutes to an hour longer than if I was doing it for a D20 game (to be fair, even for D20, I tend to weak the characters a bit so as not get a generic "level X whatever").

cheers, Mark

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

I find that d20 takes much longer than the HERO System to make NPCs because to make a legal character you have to start at level 1 and walk them up their levels one at a time, exploring all their feat (and possibly spell) options, adding up their hit dice, applying stat bonuses, messing around with skill ranks math, picking out magic items, etc etc etc.

In the HERO System you don't have to do that, because character design is more holistic. The design process isnt substantially different for a character with 150 points than it is for a character with 500 points.

[Vondy]

To further derail, I saw a blurb last night for Conan the Barbarian that went like:

"Conan, an Ex-Pitfighter recovers his father's sword from a Snake King with the help of a wizard, a Mongol and a queen."

Keith "Wrong on so many levels" Curtis

Von D-Man's avuncular advise for Conan Screenwriters:

When in doubt, play the Anvil of Crom and keep your mouths freaking shut.

[arcady]

I have no respect left for Conan since he became governor of California...

On the meta-features of fantasy, and the ease or difficulty of using FH over Champions...

I find, as I said in an earlier post, that Fantasy Hero does the expectations of DnD better and easier than DnD does them.

I also find FH a lot less cluttered than Champions, and I personally feel the Hero system no longer scales well to super heroes, but scales perfectly to Heroic level - Fantasy Hero, Dark Champions, and so on...

There are less variables to track, and the scale of the numbers is smaller - which helps lower complexity. Further there is greater similarity among characters in vital stats like speed, which goes very far towards speeding play.

[LordGhee]

What Mardok and Killer stated,

I with out thinking to much just used the system and found that running any Grene works.

here in El Paso Tx the gamemasters have just used the rules as is (frameworks at times or not) and have not found powers or magic unblancing.

this if from half a dozen campain since 1982,

in the D&D if a charter is fireballed to death or a growth spell is cast and one is smashed people seem to except that but some people can not accept the same from HERO.

Lord Ghee

[arcady]

DnD has had instant 'ok, you're level 3,274 and you worked it all up fairly in 1E and now you need to roll 19+ on a d20 or lose all that in one die roll' since day one...

That's just the way DnD works.

Module S1, if I recall right, has several 'cannot be raised from this' instant traps in it.

DnD players accept that paradigm. Best DnD game I played in had on average 2 PC deaths per session - most of them attributable to the same unlucky player, he only shook that loose when he made a half-orc (a race he didn't like) barbarian (a class he didn't like), with a name and equipment he also didn't like... Half-orcs in that group had never before survived their first encounter, no matter what level they were made at. So naturally, this one survived to the end of that campaign...

But...

Hero has no 'wham bam, roll one die to end it all' - everything in Hero gets 'litigated' - once you sit down to Hero you switch your assumptions and presume that if you're going to lose our character, the GM is going to have to show all the work and prove it 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. :)

That's just the paradigm of Hero.

Heroic Level hero can be a little different. You can get a one shot kill. But it's not assumed that it will happen with regularity, and when it does you can usually see why and how and accept it because the numbers behind it are all there and can be looked at and understood...

Which, for me, actually helps Fantasy Hero over DnD... But it can for some DnD players take away the thrill of 'random character for the evening #32'.

[ghost-angel]

None of the magic systems that have been hacked together to fit into HERO system rules work very well, and I have tried about 3. and read virtually all of them.

Magic is either so hobbled that no one wants it, or it is so powerful that it borders on unbalancing.

Rules that were designed to mimic superheroic combat do not translate well to sword and sorcery, unless you tweak them, and tweak them, and tweak them.

Like many others who have already posted - my experiences differ VASTLY from yours.

I started Hero in a Fantasy game. The magic system was a very simple Multipower Pool with Requires Skill Roll on all the powers. It was not unbalacing at all.

Hero, for me, is first and foremost a Heroic System, Superheroic an afterthought. It mimics the combat of S&S just fine for me. No tweaking needed.