Fantasy Reproduction

[Manic Typist]

I have a problem. I like a little bit of everything, and I often try to incorporate a little of bit of everything. So, I like to have the drow from Forgotten Realms, and the Dark Elves from Warhammer, etc. Or orcs. The many different kinds of orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, etc- I like the variety.

However, I'm also pretty big on reason, consistency, and logic. Which makes tying together these disparate elements rather difficult.

While I was studying (or not, as might be the case) political science the other day, I had a sudden brainstorm that I think made my life much easier. I figured out where orcs and their kin came from, and how they reproduce. Enough posturing, here it is:

The origin of orcs and their continued presence
Long ago, a council of wizards organized to solve a most troublesome problem. They felt that they had not received their proper dues, and decided to conquer the world so that everyone would finally recognize their inherent superiority. These would be gods knew, however, that as powerful as they were, they needed some sort of army to enforce their will. After all, their attention (and spells) could only be in so many places at once. So they set about creating an army of magical constructs to serve as their tools of conquest. What they ended up with was orcs: strong, brutal, efficient, fearless, without mercy or compassion, unhesitating, and ultimately, a failure. The wizards did not create what they had intended to create, and considered the orcs to be a lesser product than what they had intended. What they wizards were hoping for is unknown. Perhaps they wanted more resilient or intelligent creatures, or just simply "more" from the orcs. Whatever it was, the world was spared a terrible fate when the wizards' spell came up short.

As a matter of fact, the word "orc" translates into "failure" in the long lost tongue the wizards spoke. Not many people know this however, and how could they? The council decided to make do with what they had, and went to war. An epic struggle ensued, with nations rising and falling, heroes and villains emerging, and legends being born. Ultimately, a band of heroes stormed the citadel of the would be god-wizards and destroyed the control mechanism that mentally dominated their orc armies. The wizards were subsequently slain and the orcs were defeated once they ceased to be an organized fighting force.

Originally, orcs had no means of reproducing. Whether this was by design or accident is uncertain, but the world quickly determined that the orc threat would, eventually, be eliminated. If only that were the case.

The wizards had been extremely powerful. So powerful in fact, that the spell that they had used to create the orcs was not complete. It "recognized" that the orcs were failures, and it continued to attempt to finish what it had been cast for. However, no one knew that this was occurring.

Whenever orcs set up camp for any significant amount of time, they dig a pit. It is usually around thirty feet deep and fifteen feet wide, but it can be exapnded. More on this later.

Orcs instinctively toss their dead in these chambers, which frequently serve as a latrine for the orc band. The decomposing bodies, blood, offal, rainwater, and mud mix as the spell begins to take root in the chamber. Eventually a thick morass forms. This sludge spawns more orcs, who attempt to climb the slick and steep walls of the chamber (sometimes the walls even curve in towards the opening, making their task more difficult). Those strong enough to escape join the tribe. Those that aren’t are “recycled” by the spawning chamber.

The exact nature of the orc that comes out of the spawning chamber is strongly influenced by what is put in the chamber. If you toss in children, gnomes, halflings, then you will typically get goblins. Goblins typically escape through luck or clever bargaining. Sometimes they will attach themselves to orcs who are trying to climb out, who often don’t even notice their passengers. However, if too many goblins attach themselves to an orc, his chances of escaping will be thwarted. He will either die in the chamber (and so to the goblins who hoped to ride him to freedom), or kill the goblins to lighten his load. Thus, clever goblins will fight off any other would be passengers in order to ensure their own survival. Often this symbiotic relationship will continue even once the orc and goblin have escaped. Another way that goblins escape is by working together to form “ladders” so that they may escape. However, only a small number can benefit while the rest will be abandoned, and this select few succeed through lies, manipulation, and treachery. The result is that only the most treacherous, clever, and strongest creatures escape the spawning chamber.

Elves, dwarves, the amount of armor or weapons that the corpses had when “chambered,” and even the dirt composition all influence what is created. Hobgoblins, black orcs, sea orcs, orcs that are resistant to magic or blades are all a result of different “recipes.”

Sometimes the orcs toss in prisoners who are not yet dead. If the poor soul manages to survive the brutal conditions of the chamber (as well as any orcs or goblins that spawn) they will eventually become an orc in turn. The spell even reprograms them with the same hatred and aggression that all other orcs have, and nothing remains of the original personality. There is one important difference between “spawned” orcs and “turned” orcs: the latter are capable of independent reproduction.

Imagine the initial confusion of an orc tribe when female orcs first emerged from the spawning chambers! I’m sure there were a few unwary orcs who were quickly used to demonstrate that their new companions were just as cruel and aggressive as their male counterparts.

It is from these “artificial” orcs that half-orcs (and subsequent diminutive lineages) emerged, typically as a product of rape.

What is truly important about orcs (purebred or otherwise) that are born is that they have crucial differences from all other orcs. The larger the generation gap between them and a spawning chamber, the less magic in their makeup and even orc psychology. A purebred orc who parents both came from the chamber would only have about half the predisposition of aggression and hatred that makes other orcs exultant killers. The progeny of that orc (purebred or otherwise), will have even less of an instinctive urge to fight and kill and in general behave like a typical orc. Eventually, you have an orc on your hands who is completely free of the wizards’ spell, and is like any other individual. Regardless, if the orc was not created in the spawning chamber, then it has some measure of free will, and therefore some possibility of becoming a moral being. However, even “untainted” orcs can be raised to be killers, like any other beings. Whether raised by their tribes or by society, it is difficult for an orc to escape the stigmata of his or her blood. Remember, most people have an ingrained hatred of orcs, and rapeget suffer doubly from this.


What do you guys think? So far, I am really excited about the possibilities this entire process offers. You have a logical and detailed explanation for why some orcs can be killed without guilt (the perfect mooks), or you can instead force the players to confront moral issues: “He was raised that way!” or “Why did you do that? He was peaceful! Murderer!”

If a player wants to play a orc or a half-orc, but dislikes the idea of taking any sort of “rage” Disads, he can play an orc that is “far” from the chamber. Or, if he would like to play an orc that is struggling with its inner rage, then it can be “close” to a spawning chamber.

I think this allows for a lot of mix and matching options for a player to select from, as well as a template that can be incorporated into their character’s background.

Comments? Questions? Suggestions? I am especially looking for suggestions about different “names” I can give the different types of orcs in regards to how magical (and therefore enraged) they are.

[Mulgar]

That is fabulous, repped!!!!:thumbup:

[CraterMaker]

Wonderfully self consistant.. I like it a lot!

I can't come up with anything cool to describe their distance from the pit..
Pitbourne? I got nothing..wait..

Spawn for direct from the pit.. Descended for successful generations.. Bastard or Hybreds (sp intentional) for living creatures transformed by the magic in the pit..

So "We're facing a thousand OrcSpawn, led by Hybreds(Bastards).. We're expecting the Descended to start joining up as the Horde makes its' way inland."

-CraterMaker

[AndyStaples]

Very impressive. It's an original, consistent and intriguing backstory for orcs.

There are a lot of implications and ideas for future development as well - for instance, perhaps one day a well-developed purebred settlement will decide not to dig a pit and create a peaceful orcish community. Imagine a party's surprise at discovering, not a murder band, but orcs enjoying a simple agrarian lifestyle. Will they still put the orcs to the sword?

I love the idea of the orc and his faithful (and cleverer) goblin life companion.

This is such a great piece of work. I almost wish I hadn't read it, since I'm working at my own FH campaign world at the moment, and it's going to be very hard to come up with an orcish backstory as good as this.

Repped.

[katal3]

Repped, really good backstory, it's original, yet is consistant with their archetype. (Though I think you stole the imagery for it from the LoTR movies, it seems similar...)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Nicely done. Quite possibly stolen at some point in the nebulous future.

[Beast]

very good
tho until you put in the tossing in of other live humaniods you where going to get diminising returns on what got tossed into the pit
a good hook would be that no one has found out about this or after any battle all the corpes would be burned should they hold the battle field and why orcs never go out to sea

[McCoy]

very good
tho until you put in the tossing in of other live humaniods you where going to get diminising returns on what got tossed into the pit
a good hook would be that no one has found out about this or after any battle all the corpes would be burned should they hold the battle field and why orcs never go out to sea
Yep, my first thought was "no corpse left unburned."

Would suggest one addition. If the orcs move on, they cover the pit before they break camp. Usually any orcs that are going to emerge dig their way out in a week or so. Sometimes however the contents of the pit forms a "cocoon," an underground capsule where the contents sometimes go into stasis, to emerge yers of centuries later, or contiue to change, later releasing some large, unique humanoid monster. (Maybe this is how trolls bagan? A hacked up ent thrown into the pit and buried?)

[Manic Typist]

Repped, really good backstory, it's original, yet is consistant with their archetype. (Though I think you stole the imagery for it from the LoTR movies, it seems similar...)

The initial concept I came up with without any concious focus on the LoTR. However, as I developed the imagery, I began to to think about LoTR and draw some inspiration from this.

McCoy- actually, I had intended something exactly like that while I was brainstorming, but I forgot it. Thanks for reminding me! Another idea is that some adventurers accidentally fall into one that had been covered over (think of it like a sinkhole just under the ground) and don't manage to escape...

Crater- all of those appeal to me. I shall ponder this. Thank you!

AndyStaples- please, steal as much as you like!

Beast- if you want, you can use it to create sea orcs. Have the chambers be dug along the shore, with heavy saltwater and sand influences. Driftwood, tossing in drowned sailors and any merfolk that get tangled in a net... whatever.

Trolls... trolls need to be pondered. I like the idea of extended incubation!!!

[Beast]

I was more suggesting a weakness in their psyche for they cannot be reborn if they are lost at sea

[QUOTE=Manic Typist;1214939

Beast- if you want, you can use it to create sea orcs. Have the chambers be dug along the shore, with heavy saltwater and sand influences. Driftwood, tossing in drowned sailors and any merfolk that get tangled in a net... whatever.

Trolls... trolls need to be pondered. I like the idea of extended incubation!!![/QUOTE]

[Manic Typist]

I was more suggesting a weakness in their psyche for they cannot be reborn if they are lost at sea



Ah. I see. Thank you for clarifying. Good point.

Additional note: I was also planning on linking a Disad as a part of an orc package deal based on how close they were (lineage wise) to a chamber that would make them more susceptible to mental domination.

Also, I think only orcs produced in a chamber will have a predisposition to create a chamber themselves. I think this would more reasonably allow for peaceful orcs to emerge on their own. Of course, if they accidentally create a chamber of their own....

[Shaft]

Very cool. Repped.

This might be the forum to throw in a minor idea I had once for a villainous NPC:

How is it that we have Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, but never half-elf/half-orcs? My theory is that the two races hate one another so much that on the rare occasions where any interbred child are born with that heritage, they are killed upon birth (or earlier if possible).

However, if one were to survive, he'd have to be quite the badass to see adulthood. He'd have the same physical toughness as a traditional half-orc, the gracefulness and spell affintity of a half-elf. Like a mutt, he blends the best of both breeds, and doesn't suffer from the intelligence and charisma penalties that half-orcs usually have, and doesn't have th frail physique of Elvenkind. Needless to say, he also has nightvision, keen hearing and a keen sense of smell. He has lived to become one of the baddest shamans in the orc kingdoms, and enjoys torturing information out of unfortunate PCs. While he holds the orcs that he has come to rule over with contempt, he despises the elves even more. With no racial loyalty to connect him to anyone, he seeks even more power for himself, and has no problem with killing anyone who steps in his way and sending hundreds of orcs to their death in the process if that is what it takes.

My inspiration for this idea came from Scorpius in Farscape: half-Sebacian and half-Skaaren. This would basically be a fantasy "translation" of him. As I am not running a Fantasy Hero game these days, I have no opportunity to use him, so I thought I'd put him out to the community in hopes of finding him a happy campaign to live in.

[Vondy]

This echoes the Gargun in Harnworld, albeit with significant departure points. Its an interesting backstory for them.

[Susano]

Cocoons could produce trolls, ogres, giants, or ettins. In fact, some of the multi-headed/-limbed creatures from legend could come from pits that have been covered over and left alone.

[Manic Typist]

I like the villain prompt... nice!

Did you ever workup a character sheet?

[Shaft]

I like the villain prompt... nice!

Did you ever workup a character sheet?

Not yet. As I said, he's just an idea I've had floating around. I'm not running a fantasy game, but perhaps I'll send my Champions PCs to a fantasy realm to meet him.

If I were to write him up, I would not want to make a "half-elf/half-orc" race package. The appeal (to me) is the uniqueness of the character, and making a package out of it implies that there is more than one. I'd build his "race bonuses" as straight bonuses justified by his unique breeding. If this intermixing becomes more common, it risks becoming the type of thing you see on the Star Trek fanfic boards where everyone is a half Vulcan/quarter Klingon/one eighth Cardassian/the other eighth Irish-setter or something (seriously, you can only put so many racial identifiers on one forehead... but I digress). The interbreeding between an orc and an elf gives a lot of benefits, but the social stygma of being one should be very problematic (kinda like being a "good" drow, and we see how many of those are running around now).

But I would build this character in scale to the PCs. He'd be worth about 1.5 times the value of any lone PC; so if the PCs are 75/75, he should be ~225 pts, with one third of his pts in attributes, another third in warrior skills and tricks, and the last third in spells and mystic powers.

[arcady]

Very cool. Repped.

This might be the forum to throw in a minor idea I had once for a villainous NPC:

How is it that we have Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, but never half-elf/half-orcs?In the last fantasy setting I did with Elves and Orcs (both of which I no longer use), the name I had for a half-elf/half-orc was 'human'.

[Shaft]

In the last fantasy setting I did with Elves and Orcs (both of which I no longer use), the name I had for a half-elf/half-orc was 'human'.

*eww!* I bet they banned that theory in some of the schools. ;)

[TheQuestionMan]

Excellent work


Thank you

......SNAGGED!!!

[Badger]

A question that popped into my head: What of a wizard, near-death, getting thrown in and transformed?

[LoresLost]

A question that popped into my head: What of a wizard, near-death, getting thrown in and transformed?

Ogre Magi!!!! I just had to say it. :p

[ghost-angel]

I like Orc breeding pits.

Reminds me of the Zerg from Starcraft a bit. Which were my fave race.

[Steve]

Ogre Magi!!!! I just had to say it. :p

Actually, that would make sense with the setup given. Another option could be that a magic-user tossed in would act as a "wild card" effect, expanding the variety of beings coming out. Maybe that's how you get this world's version of Uruk-Hai, or just something smarter and nastier than the average orc or troll.

Or maybe that was how undead came to be on this world. :eg:

[arcady]

*eww!* I bet they banned that theory in some of the schools. ;)

For me it just makes sense. In any world where humans mix with elves on one end, and orcs on the other, and produce fertile in-between stage results; humans seem to be the mid-point on the graph. All three are really the same species, just different ethnic groups, with a dymorphism more like that seen in the canine genus than the primate genus in out own reality.

In that setting, it was a known truth, but a disliked one. It also gave both Elves an Orcs a sense of 'fear' of humans not just in terms of conquest, but in terms of being 'bred out of existence' in the same way that some 'racial groups' in the real world are so hostile to 'mysogenation'. And it helps to explain human advantages - they have the widest gene-pool. :)

Some efforts existed to stamp out the idea, the same as you see in Japan with efforts in popular dialog the deny their heritage as a mix of Koreans and Polynesians by claiming to be a 'pure race' rather than a 'mixed one'... (of course, all human ethnic groups are actually mixes... but we love playing denial games about it).

[Manic Typist]

The mage could result in anything you wanted. A orc that was immune to magic. Can you imagine if he became a chieftan?

A particularly powerful shaman. Especially if the wizard survived the chamber.

If there were a large number of bodies in the chamber, or a couple of big bodies, I could easily see something of an ogre, with magical abilities.

Perhaps some sort of golem that is similar to the chamber? It can walk and fight and slowly changes those around it... A true horror.

Or anything else you want to come out.


Oh, another visual I wanted to toss out there: usually orcs move around a lot (especially if an ogre emerges, ask me about that another time), so they only have one chamber in their temporary base. However, if orcs spend an extended period of time at a location, or multiple tribes visit the same spot... multiple chambers will be built in proximity. Over time, this chambers can become connected with tunnels. Sometimes created by earth movements, water flow, or even creatures trying to escape, it creates an intricate network of spawning chambers connected by tunnels. Who knows what could be lurking down in such an extensive spawning network?

[Susano]

Oh, another visual I wanted to toss out there: usually orcs move around a lot (especially if an ogre emerges, ask me about that another time), so they only have one chamber in their temporary base. However, if orcs spend an extended period of time at a location, or multiple tribes visit the same spot... multiple chambers will be built in proximity. Over time, this chambers can become connected with tunnels. Sometimes created by earth movements, water flow, or even creatures trying to escape, it creates an intricate network of spawning chambers connected by tunnels. Who knows what could be lurking down in such an extensive spawning network?

Politicians?

[Manic Typist]

Ok, I'm repping you when I get the chance.

[ghost-angel]

I got 'im.

That thought was simple and Pure Evil.

[Lucius]

The mage could result in anything you wanted. A orc that was immune to magic. Can you imagine if he became a chieftan?

A particularly powerful shaman. Especially if the wizard survived the chamber.

If there were a large number of bodies in the chamber, or a couple of big bodies, I could easily see something of an ogre, with magical abilities.

Perhaps some sort of golem that is similar to the chamber? It can walk and fight and slowly changes those around it... A true horror.

Or anything else you want to come out.


Oh, another visual I wanted to toss out there: usually orcs move around a lot (especially if an ogre emerges, ask me about that another time), so they only have one chamber in their temporary base. However, if orcs spend an extended period of time at a location, or multiple tribes visit the same spot... multiple chambers will be built in proximity. Over time, this chambers can become connected with tunnels. Sometimes created by earth movements, water flow, or even creatures trying to escape, it creates an intricate network of spawning chambers connected by tunnels. Who knows what could be lurking down in such an extensive spawning network?

L MFF! Ow! Hey!

Lucius Alexander

Getting run over by a palindromedary before he can say anything to insult the profession of our gracious host, Mr. Long.

[Michael Hopcroft]

In the last fantasy setting I did with Elves and Orcs (both of which I no longer use), the name I had for a half-elf/half-orc was 'human'.

You know, if you view "evolution" in your fantasy worlds in moral terms rather than biological ones, it makes perfect sense. It could also serve the explain the absence of elves and orcs in the modern world in a campaign where they existed in the past; they melded into the human race.

The thing that makes humans so fascinating is that they lack the sort of "internal guidance systems" of other fantasy races. A human is not born good or evil, and throughout his life never becomes entirely one or the other. His parents could be absolute saints, yet he could turn out to be a monster of Hitlerian proportions -- and vice versa. At least if he is sane and reasonable, he does not see the world in black-and-white, absolute terms but appreciates the "shades of gray". This means that he is a free agent. He is capable of making moral decisions, which is something that a traditional Orc (or Elf, for that matter) cannot do because so much of their thinking IS hard-wired into them.

[Susano]

He is capable of making moral decisions, which is something that a traditional Orc (or Elf, for that matter) cannot do because so much of their thinking IS hard-wired into them.

"Traditional" in what way? Per D&D tradition?

[Manic Typist]

And Tolkien, to an extent.

Although some of the actions of elves could easily be considered evil... I don't recall an account of a good orc.

Maybe he was filled with arrows before anybody could get to know him?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Tolkien is a good reference to my point. A Tolkien Orc was certainly intelligent and capable, but he had certain characteristics built into him that restricted his ability to make moral decisions. This reflects the fact that he was created by an external influence for a specific purpose, rather than simply being born and then choosing his own path.

But Susano raises a good point -- there are innumerable fantasy cosmologies involving Orcs in which they ARE free agents the way humans are in the real world. Of course, this begs the question of why those cosmologies use Orcs and not something else entirely.

[arcady]

The below is a bit off topic and I'm trying to pull it back on... :)

I have always had 'trouble' with depictions of Orcs in fantasy. After Tolkien, they increasingly took on traits that mirrored the way journalism and public discourse in the 19th through mid 20th century spoke of Native North Americans. Some of the language in DnD is a near mirror image for language once used to dehumanize Indigenous people around the world. Artwork of them often depicts them in 'feathered tribal' outfits, and their magical people get known as 'shamans', and it just goes on and on.

As a result, I often would create counter language among Orcs describing elves or humans in the same sort of way Native Americans described those invading their lands, and then did up a 'real culture' for my Orcs that was not rooted in assuming 'racialized language' was true, but that it was a political-slander to justify a conflict.

So... my Orcs have always been 'free agents' as much as my elves and my humans - but each had ideas that the other was evil, and a long tradition of 'loaded language' to back it. With so many fantasy settings assuming they interbreed, I could use the 'fear of racial dilution' as one reason / justification for the 'loaded language'.


Orc breeding pits and such can seem fun, but to me, I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea of any notion of pure good or evil, and violence justified on its basis. To me, even the escapism of it helps to keep alive the possibility of 'loaded perceptions' outside of escapism. So for me, seeing Tolkien's Orcs as actually evil was not escapism, it was something that made me uncomfortable, something that made me want to question why he felt the need to make an 'evil race', and I have never been able to stop thinking about that and the fact that he came out with LoTR not long after WWII came to an end (which partly inspired me to do this artpiece (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/29753626/)).


When they are not inter-breedable you can get away with a lot more. And even an 'Orc Breeding pit' need not be rooted in assumptions of pure good/evil.


I'm having odd ball ideas right now of Orcs reproducing in a matter similar to a platypus...

Which I can bring back to a breeding pit something or other as well... If the Orc population is an isolated evolutionary strain, it could end up with unusual means of reproduction.

Likewise, even if magically produced and breeding through the consequences of the magic... it need not be 'morally constrained' to a specific ethos, even if to outsiders it seems easy to describe it that way.

Nothing, for me at least, is more fun that having the player midway through the plot realize the bad guys aren't the bad guys...


This is one of the reasons I really like the basic premise in 'World of Warcraft' that there really isn't a good or bad 'race', just some very different outlooks on the world. Of course, I haven't actually played WoW (not up for monthly fees, and I know I will never convince the DnD core of my gaming group to try even d20... even the ones that play WoW nightly rejected trying it at the table top... so I didn't bother to get the game, I just drool over it everytime I see it in a gaming store...)

[Robyn]

To me, even the escapism of it helps to keep alive the possibility of 'loaded perceptions' outside of escapism.

That pretty much sums up the reasons why I stopped gaming in general, though violence was not what I saw at the heart of it.


If the Orc population is an isolated evolutionary strain, it could end up with unusual means of reproduction.

:nonp:

I've heard of fetishes (in the Foci sense too, but I'm speaking specifically of the "prerequisite for sexual pleasure" term here), but making specific "unusual" practices a biological requirement of reproduction is a step beyond.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Political implications aside, many biologists consider the multi-species worlds characteristic of RPG fantasy ludicrous, based on their opinion that when two sentient species come into contact, inevitably one or the other will be out-competed to extinction (if not exterminated outright). And Orcs fill their biological niche so well that in any competition they are the near-certain winners.

So in a Middle-Earth without an omniscient writer preserving an impossible balance, the Orcs would have wiped out everything that wasn't an Orc millenia before the story, Sauron or no Sauron.

It is disturbing to realize that most human moral values are useless, if not self-defeating, in raw Darwinistic terms. The very concept of morality is not useful in evolutionary terms. Fortunately, individual generations do not live in evolutionary time, so for us to be concerned about the next two or three million years of Earth's evolution is not necessary. And it remains to be seen whether the Darwinian model breaks down entirely when deliberate effort (as opposed to the application of random chance) is applied -- in other words, whether it is possible for humans to affect and alter the future development of their own species. Given the fact that humans have been able to alter numerous other animal species to the point that those species survival requires our constant intervention (would chickens be able to exist if we didn't raise and eat them?), this might be possible.

[Kristopher]

Political implications aside, many biologists consider the multi-species worlds characteristic of RPG fantasy ludicrous, based on their opinion that when two sentient species come into contact, inevitably one or the other will be out-competed to extinction (if not exterminated outright). And Orcs fill their biological niche so well that in any competition they are the near-certain winners.

So in a Middle-Earth without an omniscient writer preserving an impossible balance, the Orcs would have wiped out everything that wasn't an Orc millenia before the story, Sauron or no Sauron.

It is disturbing to realize that most human moral values are useless, if not self-defeating, in raw Darwinistic terms. The very concept of morality is not useful in evolutionary terms. Fortunately, individual generations do not live in evolutionary time, so for us to be concerned about the next two or three million years of Earth's evolution is not necessary. And it remains to be seen whether the Darwinian model breaks down entirely when deliberate effort (as opposed to the application of random chance) is applied -- in other words, whether it is possible for humans to affect and alter the future development of their own species. Given the fact that humans have been able to alter numerous other animal species to the point that those species survival requires our constant intervention (would chickens be able to exist if we didn't raise and eat them?), this might be possible.

Considering that we have a single example in which one sentient species might have caused the extininction of another, well before any recorded history, it's quite the shakey claim from the start, never mind all the conclusions you arrive at.

[ahnen]

I found this descriptions of Orc to be "offal, absolutely offal!" ;)

Actually, pretty good.

[arcady]

I've heard of fetishes (in the Foci sense too, but I'm speaking specifically of the "prerequisite for sexual pleasure" term here), but making specific "unusual" practices a biological requirement of reproduction is a step beyond.
Yeah... I was trying to 'work with it' on the theme here...

Not a good attempt, but that's what I was aiming for... Trying for a 'morally unloaded' idea for why a 'breeding pit' (whatever that term entails...) might be in place.

-shrug-

[Lucius]

Yeah... I was trying to 'work with it' on the theme here...

Not a good attempt, but that's what I was aiming for... Trying for a 'morally unloaded' idea for why a 'breeding pit' (whatever that term entails...) might be in place.

-shrug-

"Spawning pit" might be a better term, since as I understand it the whole point is that they don't "breed" as normal (whatever THAT is) beings do.

And I can see the point that even if they are created in that unusual way, it does not necessarily follow that they are not free moral agents.

By the way, have you seen the web comic Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire? I think you'd like his approach to Orcs.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary likes his approach to a lot of things.

[arcady]

Political implications aside, many biologists consider the multi-species worlds characteristic of RPG fantasy ludicrous, based on their opinion that when two sentient species come into contact, inevitably one or the other will be out-competed to extinction (if not exterminated outright).

It is disturbing to realize that most human moral values are useless, if not self-defeating, in raw Darwinistic terms. The very concept of morality is not useful in evolutionary terms.

Look at my post in the 'poll on a sentient species' thread - the one over would they be bipeds or not...

Read between the lines on the reason I give for intelligence and you get a conclusion that is shaping up in some corners that it is our social systems, including moralism, that are -why- we are intelligent.

Let me explain that.

The idea in this theory is that intelligence comes about from a series of steps that begin with standing upright. A primate standing needs to ship the hips around in such a way that the birth canal becomes too narrow to deliver a mature or at least 'ready to be active within hours' offspring, as is seen in most other mammals.

In fact, human babies are so under-developed that they can take years to be able to take care of themselves in the most primative of aspects (not talking about 'getting a job' here, but basic 'get food' stuff the most wild human could not survive below probably age 6 or so... and certainly not below 3 or 4).

As a result, motherhood had to develop - as in nourishing and caring for offspring for a very extended period of time, teaching them survival skills. The human offspring is born so under-developed that most of its basic skills had to be taught rather than instinctual. Communication is forced to develop, and social networks are forced to develop.

Lots of animals have very advanced hunting and predatory skills without having intelligence, to include other primates - so nothing implies intelligence comes from the hunt. In addition, lots of animals gather food without developing intelligence, so nothing implies it comes from the gatherer side either.

Under this theory, it comes from changes required as a result of what is essentially an evolutionary defect - the underdeveloped offspring as a result of the narrow birth canal.

And the manner in which it develops is as 'intelligence in order to facilitate building social networks to compensate' - creating social motherhood.

The best short primer on this theory is in Jarod Diamond's book "Why is sex fun?"

But, under such a theory, two sentient species coming into contact might find it advantageous to cooperate in order to maximize brain power and have greater access to specialists who are not needed for getting food nor rearing offspring.

For example, it is also suggested in this theory that menopause, another 'evolutionary defect' is actually an advantage in that it takes a portion of the population out of reproduction that can then be used to pass on skills to future generations, especially given that taking them out of reproduction will enable them to survive longer once that stage is reached and the risk of death in childbirth is gone. The same purpose is served in having extended families - a wider network for skills in case of emergency.

Two populations coming into contact which are not interfertile can specialize for handling different tasks in the community, or even stage their reproductive cycles so that one segment is always out of production when another is in - and by being out lowers its risks and helps the other carry through, or performs specialized roles in the community while the other segment is otherwise occupied.

An example of this exists between man and dog - albeit dog did not develop sentience on the level of man. By coming into contact and each taking on roles in the community, each was able to progress further and faster than they might have alone.

So... it is not a forgone conclusion that two sentients meeting would war.

Theories could go either way.

the theory that two sentients will compete to death is backed solely by the loss of Neanderthal. And we do not actually have any evidence for any explanation as to what happened there. All we do know is that, as far as cutting edge DNA research is concerned, there are no Neanderthal genes present in modern Europeans that we know how to detect as separate from other human DNA... (ie: a vague conclusion that they probably did not mix with what became modern Europeans - this conclusion presupposes that we would recognize Neanderthal DNA for what it is if we saw it).

[Lucius]

For that matter, even among say Chimpanzees, biologists have noted that there is no reason for them to be as smart as they are, to fill the ecological niche they do. An animal could make a living much as Chimpanzees do, without being as smart as a Chimpanzee.

So the only apparent reason to develop so much intelligence is - to cope with other Chimpanzees. So I've read, and so the idea that intelligence evolves specifically as a social coping mechanism is not new to me.

The argument about bipedalism I'm not so sure about. Rather like the "we killed off the Neanderthal" argument, it seems to me to be drawing a general conclusion from a single data point. Just because it developed that way for US doesn't mean that's the only way an intelligent, tool and language using species could come about.

However, I think we've drifted way off topic...if you want to start another thread, though, that might be a good idea. For example, I think the idea of ANY sentient being NOT being a moral free agent is disturbing to you - and I think I can understand why, but talking about is just too much thread drift.

Lucius Alexander

And a bicephalous quadraped

[Manic Typist]

When they are not inter-breedable you can get away with a lot more. And even an 'Orc Breeding pit' need not be rooted in assumptions of pure good/evil.




Likewise, even if magically produced and breeding through the consequences of the magic... it need not be 'morally constrained' to a specific ethos, even if to outsiders it seems easy to describe it that way.

Nothing, for me at least, is more fun that having the player midway through the plot realize the bad guys aren't the bad guys...




Of course it doesn't. But it gives a logical process for their creation, and much of their psychology. It helps provide consistency for why they are "mooks."

Again, of course it doesn't. Except that in this case, the magic is doing exactly that.

The whole point of this was to create a causation for why orcs are so commonly perceived as evil.... and then at the same time provide room for that justifcation to not be always true. Thus, we create a bias, and then can throw it in the face of the players.

It allows you to mix and match the tone of not only your orcs, but even indiviudual confrontations.

[Markdoc]

It is disturbing to realize that most human moral values are useless, if not self-defeating, in raw Darwinistic terms. The very concept of morality is not useful in evolutionary terms.

Way off topic, but I beg to differ. Humanity so far has thrown up numerous militaristic, aggressive societies, including some like Sparta, optimised for nothing but war. Without exception, these societies and their armies have been crushed under the iron foot/sandal/boot of societies expressing a preference for more openness and a larger role for morality and civil life.

You might argue that this will not always be the case, but all the datapoints we have so far point the opposite way. Theoretical models lke the prisoner's dilemma agree - if you have to play multiple times (and in real life you do) - then altruism and openness are winning strategies.


Fortunately, individual generations do not live in evolutionary time, so for us to be concerned about the next two or three million years of Earth's evolution is not necessary. And it remains to be seen whether the Darwinian model breaks down entirely when deliberate effort (as opposed to the application of random chance) is applied -- in other words, whether it is possible for humans to affect and alter the future development of their own species. Given the fact that humans have been able to alter numerous other animal species to the point that those species survival requires our constant intervention (would chickens be able to exist if we didn't raise and eat them?), this might be possible.

If we suddenly stopped raising chickens most of them would die - but many would not, and the survivors would be able to survive in the wild. This we know because the experiment has already been done with chickens that escape from captivity (same with sheep and cows). Humans are at the same level: the vast majority of us (even those in developing countries) can only survive in the context of relatively advanced technology. If that were suddenly magically withdrawn, there'd be a vast human die-off, but the survivors would be able to pick the pieces and keep going. In both cases, it's a question of numbers vs resources, not genetic alteration. Genetically, humans haven't changed that much in the last 10,000 years.

Which means - dragging the post kicking and screaming vaguely back on topic - that even if orcish society and orcs themselves are optimised for fighting, that's not necessarily enough to grant them eventual dominance (or even survival). To compete, you also need the ability to establish a stable society and control internal stresses in your society (something orcish society in most games and fantasy settings is notoriously poor at). There's no advantage in raising a huge army of fearless warriors if most of them starve to death (or are eaten by the others) on the march - leaving each one of the survivors to fight 10 well-equipped, well-organised and well-motivated opponents from an army that has a supply train. Likewise, as history teaches us, numbers and violent enthusiam is no match for better equipment, better organisation and decent quartermasters. Finally, if there is no stable basis for civics (be that ethics or morality) odds are pretty good your civilisation will never expand to the point where it can field large armies anyway - local differences will keep tearing it apart before it reaches that point.

That's how Tolkien kept his orcs from taking over - absent a magical controlling force (the will of Sauron, or the enchantments of Saruman) orcish society in his setting is kind of an oxymoron. Instead, you get scattered bands, who are incapable of taking down the more organised races - but equally are very difficult to defeat or eradicate permanently.

cheers, Mark

[Manic Typist]

That last paragraph is exactly what I am striving for. More or less, except that some orcs can break out of this ugly cycle.

Anyway. Does anyone have any ideas for various naming tropes for the orcs? Or even the wizards and the device they used to control the orcs?

[Steve]

For naming, I would suggest coming up with ones that are heavy on consonants and gutteral sounds, like Bargg or Krazt. They would also likely be a single syllable or at most two.

[TheQuestionMan]

Za Frûmi Saga
http://www.waerloga.com/zafrumi/

[Dale A. Ward]

Just name them after your favorite Klingons... Klingonese is, after all, Galactic Orcish. :p