Fear of the dark

[Sean Waters]

I wonder if we can come to some sort of consensus on this?

I am looking at a 'fear' power.

At present I'm not interested in HOW you'd build it - we'll get to that later - what I am after is what mechanical effects, if any, you think should apply to someone who is mortally afraid. Now clearly it might include things like running away, but that isn't (or I would not classify it as) a mechanical effect - that is more of a judgement call/role playing thing.

Should they suffer a penalty to OCV, and how much? Or a bonus to DCV? -2 on INT rolls? +2 on PER rolls? Or added inches of running for the fleeing?

What do you think?

[Shaft]

I'd say that the victims are effectively suffering from a PRE attack, with the same chart used for PRE attacks to determine the effects, depending on how frightened they are.

[Rapier]

I wonder if we can come to some sort of consensus on this?

I am looking at a 'fear' power.

At present I'm not interested in HOW you'd build it - we'll get to that later - what I am after is what mechanical effects, if any, you think should apply to someone who is mortally afraid. Now clearly it might include things like running away, but that isn't (or I would not classify it as) a mechanical effect - that is more of a judgement call/role playing thing.

Should they suffer a penalty to OCV, and how much? Or a bonus to DCV? -2 on INT rolls? +2 on PER rolls? Or added inches of running for the fleeing?

What do you think?

Unfortunately, I can't think how I would divorce the what from the how. I usually build fear powers as increased PRE. PRE attacks already have a mechanic in place. If you are in combat and scare the bajesus out of someone they might run away (an action contrary to what they would normally do).

It is reasonable to assume that a character under the effects of a PRE attack might push their running to escape or suffer a minor penalty to some skill rolls as the situation warrants. A character who is very afraid might also switch to more defensive actions.

[Sean Waters]

I've noticed when I've been afraid of doing something (I am really not comfortable in roller coasters, for instance) I tend to freeze. I clench all my muscles and my legs don't work too well. I don't usually use the opportunity to test the effect on my strength and dex, but there probably is one.

Now you could do that with PRE attacks from the environment, but I'm not sure about that.

Moreover it seems to me that fear COULD cause you to take penalties OR get bonuses (well, maybe not in my case).

Sean Afraid would probably be -3" running, -3 DEX and maybe -2 STR. I'd probably also be -5 PRE and -3 INT.

Is this a universal phenomena, or is it just me?

[pinecone]

Well,what you decribe sounds like I'd model it as a Psych lim: afraid of "X".....how people respond to fear is a very personal thing, some freeze, some run...and some become agressive. No simple set of things is going to cover all that.

I usually use Pres for fear effects, sometimes a boosted attack, sometimes a Pre drain if it's a "fear gas" or the like.

I'd also be totally happy with a CE: Fear;-X CV (OCV,DCV or both) penaltys to rolls, all that sort of thing...

[OddHat]

I've noticed when I've been afraid of doing something (I am really not comfortable in roller coasters, for instance) I tend to freeze. I clench all my muscles and my legs don't work too well. I don't usually use the opportunity to test the effect on my strength and dex, but there probably is one.

Now you could do that with PRE attacks from the environment, but I'm not sure about that.

Moreover it seems to me that fear COULD cause you to take penalties OR get bonuses (well, maybe not in my case).

Sean Afraid would probably be -3" running, -3 DEX and maybe -2 STR. I'd probably also be -5 PRE and -3 INT.

Is this a universal phenomena, or is it just me?

Depends on how frightened you are, when and by what. Your fear reaction in a roller coaster is likely to be different from your fear reaction when followed by a hulking skin head late at night, and the fear reaction of one person will be different from that of another. When I was a child, when scared I'd punch or kick. As an adult, being afraid still makes me angry, but I'm sure that too varies by stimulus and situation.

I'd do this with the PRE rules, plus maybe a look at the Ultimate Skill. Either that or just decide "I want a Mind Control: Single Command: Do Not Act, with the SFX: You're too afraid to do anything".

[Valerious]

I too have a hard time separating what from how, so apologies if this is less helpful.

I would really need to know the effect in play.

If the power paralyzes the target in fear, I'd make a BOECV Entangle.

If the character says "Boo!", then I'm buying extra PRE for presence attacks, and us the presence attack chart.

If the character is frightening in appearance, some mix of a negative COM and extra PRE, and again using the presence attack mechanics may be appropriate.

If it's a fear spell, then a PRE Drain is probably appropriate, with the appropriate effects for negative PRE if it does well enough.

If the ability is intended to make someone run away, the Mind Control with the single command "Run away" is a good suggestion.

Heck, if the effect of the fear is that the target has difficulty fighting, then Change Environment with an adjustment to CV for it's effect becomes attractive.

Lots of ways to do it.

[CraterMaker]

Y'know, a power that instills fear reminds me of the Call of Cthulhu mechanic that instills insanity - maby buy it as a Transformation, and once transformed the victe... um, targets, would have a random roll on a chart to determine which way their character might react - everything from freezing, penalties to cvs or skill rolls, maby even a bonus to running or panic driven strength (plus a bezerk maby) ..

It's tough to define one effect for fear, so unless you want to define what effect you want, perhaps a random chart is the solution.

-CraterMaker

[Shaft]

Y'know, a power that instills fear reminds me of the Call of Cthulhu ...

Shhhhh! Do not invoke the name of the Old One!

[Sean Waters]

Shhhhh! Do not invoke the name of the Old One!

What? Brian?

[Sean Waters]

The various effects are the kicker: leave it to a player and you can guarantee they'll go for the one that suits them best at present, be it fight or flight, or whatever. They rarely pick 'I'll stand there trembling, then wet myself', except for the real die-hard roleplayers.

So, various effects.

I'd like them all to be negative, so boosted running, for instance, should probably be 'have to push running'.

OddHat also makes the point that fear responses are often specific to particular stimuli, even if the same stimulus would have a different effect on someone else.

It is all very comlpicated.

[OddHat]

It is all very comlpicated.

Only if we make it so. Make it more specific it gets simpler. The PRE Attack rules in 5thER 428-429 are clear enough, and Ultimate Skill adds a bit of possible texture in the Interaction Skills section, p.64-67, if you want to take a skill based intimidation approach. A "Fear" SFX linked to an Xd6 Drain vs All Characteristics is easy enough to put together if you feel the PRE Attack rules lack crunch, and there's always Mind Control if you want to take choice completely out of the hands of the players.

I'd just make a choice about what I wanted to happen in game and call the SFX "Fear."

[DocSamson]

I made a fear villain recently (a special Halloween encounter) and here's what I did. I wanted to think a little outside the box. Here are some of the things I put into a Fear Multipower.

"Basic Fear" + PRE

"Abject Terror" PRE, Does Knockback, Double Knockback (The special effect is that the target runs away, even to the point of running into objects and falling down)

"Scared to Death" PRE, Does Body (All you have to fear is fear itself.)

"Waking Nightmare" I made liberal use of the Change Environment options from 5ER for this one. I bought Various Combat Effects so I used it to imitate all kinds of movie horror schticks, such as people tripping as I approach (- DEX) to not being able to get away from me (- Movement Power), and even jumping out of nowhere to attack (- PER). He was fun villain to play. (If you don't play with caps on Change Environment, It can be brutal.)

[Vestnik]

"Abject Terror" PRE, Does Knockback, Double Knockback (The special effect is that the target runs away, even to the point of running into objects and falling down)


Doesn't seem like most forms of Knockback Resistance would be relevant against this. How'd you get around that?

[OddHat]

PRE Does Knockback and Does Body are no longer legal in 5thER. Shame, as I liked them. ;)

[DocSamson]

Doesn't seem like most forms of Knockback Resistance would be relevant against this. How'd you get around that?

I didn't. It's just one of those things I gave up on, like Power Defense protecting every ability you have against several different powers while Flash Defense only protects one of your Sense Groups from one power for the same cost.

[edit]Plus, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for the Brick (as they are the characters that most often have KR) to have some defense against the effect. We tend to play strict archetypes in our games so anything that easily removes a Brick from the combat we use with caution.

[DocSamson]

PRE Does Knockback and Does Body are no longer legal in 5thER. Shame, as I liked them. ;)

Ack!...when did this happend? I got the idea from their own Ultimates books.

[edit]This is from the most recent FAQ.

Q: One of the example powers in 5ER involves applying Does Knockback to PRE to make Presence Attacks do Knockback. How does this work?

A: A Presence Attack that does KB works like any other Presence Attack, in that it doesn’t require an Attack Roll, and only affects those persons it’s directed against (i.e., in some ways it’s inherently “Selective”). However, the use of the Advantage (which has to be a naked one, or else the character runs the risk of doing KB every time he makes an Interaction Skill roll) converts the Presence Attack from an Action that takes no time to an Attack Action.

While the Presence Attack itself costs no END, the naked Advantage, as a distinct power, costs END at the normal rate.

You calculate the KB by reading the “Normal Damage BODY” on the Presence Attack dice, and then subtracting a 2d6 roll as usual.

[OddHat]

Ack!...when did this happend? I got the idea from their own Ultimates books.

[edit]This is from the most recent FAQ.

Whadaya know?!? I bow to the Faq; PRE Attack away. :)

[Doc Democracy]

Doesn't seem like most forms of Knockback Resistance would be relevant against this. How'd you get around that?

An easy give would be to allow PRE Def to work against the KB the way KB resistance normally would....


Doc

[zornwil]

Depends on how afraid.

On the extreme end, I'd go "flight or fight," which means essentially (to me) blind panic and this could mean, in HERO terms, INT reduced to 0 (or similar), Berserk 14/less to go and 8/less to recover with target = anything perceived as interfering with bringing light, and, while I know it's RP and not strictly mechanical, a basic motivation to create light at all costs (but it should mechanically be a Disad).

I reduce INT to 0 because of the impact that has on any decisions, mechanically as a 0 characteristic but also for its impact on all INT-related skills. If you want to be less extreme, just reduce the INT penalty, cutting INT to 5 or such.

A milder fear of darkness might be an Enraged 8/less to go and 14/less to recover with target = "anything that interferes with bringing light." I would probably not so much tinker with combat ability, per se, but maybe still impose an INT reduction ranging from -5 to up to half of INT or the like. This could be built as a Suppression for a certain amount of INT, and to prevent it from being too bad for a non-intense fear you could have a -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation such as "Cannot reduce INT to more than 3/4 of original value" or "...more than 1/2 of original value" or whatever.

I know you didn't want the specific build but as you asked for mechanical impact I had to at least address some idea of how it might manifest with a build.

[Robyn]

I've noticed when I've been afraid of doing something (I am really not comfortable in roller coasters, for instance) I tend to freeze. I clench all my muscles and my legs don't work too well. I don't usually use the opportunity to test the effect on my strength and dex, but there probably is one.

I tend to be resistant to fear (and panic), mostly unaffected and quickly recovering when surprised slightly, but not all Presence Attacks are built with a Presence Drain, so a REGEN PRE wouldn't help in all cases. How would this be (consistently) done? Perhaps a Gradual Effect on defenses? The attack has already gone through, so that wouldn't work in all cases. But the only thing that seems to be left is PRE, which is itself a defense. Or a Suppress, but the attack has already taken place and gone away, only the effect is left. How do you recover from a Presence Attack?


I made a fear villain recently (a special Halloween encounter) and here's what I did. I wanted to think a little outside the box. Here are some of the things I put into a Fear Multipower.

"Basic Fear" + PRE

"Abject Terror" PRE, Does Knockback, Double Knockback (The special effect is that the target runs away, even to the point of running into objects and falling down)

Since the power does no damage, there's nothing to prevent the power from being used to rapidly escort from combat (in an open direction) a friendly character who cannot move quickly on their own. Did you Limit the power to the target's maximum movement rate?

[casualplayer]

I would try making the fear recipient make an EGO Roll to take any action (flee, stay, fight, adjust skill levels, etc.), possibly modified by the AP of the action intended. Stay put, cower and wet yourself are all 0 AP! Then a fear attack can easily be done as an EGO Drain, draining EGO into negatives has a substantial effect and high EGO folk are more resistant to fear, as they should be.

[Vestnik]

I would try making the fear recipient make an EGO Roll to take any action (flee, stay, fight, adjust skill levels, etc.), possibly modified by the AP of the action intended. Stay put, cower and wet yourself are all 0 AP! Then a fear attack can easily be done as an EGO Drain, draining EGO into negatives has a substantial effect and high EGO folk are more resistant to fear, as they should be.

I usually do fear attacks as a PRE and EGO Drain, Both Characteristics Simultaneously.