Adding underpowered Powers to an EC

[bigdamnhero]

This is a "How would you handle it" question, not really a rules question.

Say a Champions character has an Elemental Control, 24-point powers, Cost: 12. (Assume no Lims for simplicity.) Currently, he's got 2 powers in the EC: a 12PD/12ED Force Field (24 AP, Cost 12) and a 2d6 Ranged Heal (25 AP, Cost 13). Total Cost 37. So far so good.

So now the player wants to spend some XP to add Flight. He could normally get 12" of Flight for 24 AP and 12 Cost. (Or 10" with x4 NCM or some other combination.) But that doesn't fit his character conception; he sees his guy as starting out being just able to fly at a running pace, and gradually work up to faster speeds. But 6" of Flight is below the minimum for the EC. Would you:

A) Go ahead and put 6" Flight in the EC; explain to the player that he'll have to pay the minimum cost for an EC slot (12 pts), but will get the subsequent upgrades (up to 12") for free.
B) Place 6" Flight outside the EC (Cost = 12 pts), and then make him pay regular cost (1 pt per 1") to increase it until he gets to 24 AP, at which point he can move it into the EC and get 12 points back.
C) Reconfigure the EC for 12 AP powers, add the 6" Flight. Reconfigure the EC every time he increases his Flight.
D) Berate the player for being a lousy min-maxer ;) and insist/encourage him to take 12" of Flight.

Note that in this case the cost for all four options works out the same (49 pts). I don't think there are any right or wrong answers here, but I'm curious what others would do and why you think that's the best approach?

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'd go with option #1, and more likely than not consider the 6" of flight to actually be 24 active points.... the extra 12 points he's no currently using are "banked" for the future, and as GM I might consider them to be a "Mystery Power" addition to the flight with NCC at the -2 level on the other points, so in odd circumstances and under stress he might spontaneously exceed his current maximum flight.

[Bloodstone]

Or you could do it the right way, which we all know is my way :p

E) Buy it as a compound power that helps reflect the eventual learning curve via mechanics. For example:

Believe It Or Not, I'm Walking On Air: Flight 6" plus Flight 6" (12 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2)

That should fit in the EC nicely and cost him all of 7 real points. He can then buy off the lims as he grows in experience and speed.

There are of course other ways you could limit the power, that;'s just one example.

[Sean Waters]

I voted for forcing the player to increase the AP to full for the EC, on the basis that I agree witht he above posters that the most appropriate way to do it would be buy the full price power and heavily limit the bit you don't normally use. I'm vaguely surprised they didn't vote for that too :D

[bigdamnhero]

I assumed they counted that as "Other." I agree it's a good idea, tho.

[ghost-angel]

I say, they pay full price for the EC Slot, but only get the Flight they want to start with (as it's dramatically appropriate), and the rest of the Flight Inches the GM hands out when dramatically appropriate until it meets the AP requirements.

No need to go with complex builds or compound powers.

The Player may say things like "I've been practicing, I think Prometheus has another inch of Flight" and the GM may agree.

Or the GM may grant an inch or two in a dramatically appropriate situation.

[tesuji]

Note that in this case the cost for all four options works out the same (49 pts). I don't think there are any right or wrong answers here, but I'm curious what others would do and why you think that's the best approach?

Well my goal is to keep things simple for my players so i would, if everything stayed exactly as stated in your example, tell him to pay 12, put the slot in the Ec and gradually work up to his using 12" when he felt it was appropriate. no need to refigure several times for just accounting.

However, my initial suggestion would be to reflect his powers "newness" in other ways than a low ap total simply because it auses accounting issues with his EC. (If he is using an EC he is already buying into a degree of accounting complexity.)

For example my recommendation would be buying 24 Ap of flight, 6" regular and +6" with "costs extra endurance" like say at the -4 level for x10 end. This sets at 24 ap, so it fits the Ec slot fine, but the temporary slot cost is only 7 (6 for the unlimited half and 6/5 for the limited half) resulting in him having, for 7 cp, 6" of walking flight but th ability to push the flight a little further, and now he can slowly buy off the lims as he gets better. heck, i often suggest using x3 or x2 end for "new powers anyway so if he wanted the entire slot to be at x2 or x3 instead, that would be cool.

But if he still is doggedly set on this specific "6" fine but nothing more period for now" flaw for "its a new power" then i would just charge him 12 for the slot and let him get the extra flight aavailable as he sees fit. Its hurting him in the short run but its his choice even though other flaws were possible.

[bigdamnhero]

But if he still is doggedly set on this specific "6" fine but nothing more period for now" flaw for "its a new power" then i would just charge him 12 for the slot and let him get the extra flight aavailable as he sees fit. Its hurting him in the short run but its his choice even though other flaws were possible.
I should note that the player is new to Champions, so I'm trying to keep things simple. And I give the guy props for being more worried about character concept than getting the most bang for his buck.

[Supreme Serpent]

But that doesn't fit his character conception; he sees his guy as starting out being just able to fly at a running pace, and gradually work up to faster speeds.

Have him buy his running up. :D

[Shaft]

Or you could do it the right way, which we all know is my way :p

E) Buy it as a compound power that helps reflect the eventual learning curve via mechanics. For example:

Believe It Or Not, I'm Walking On Air: Flight 6" plus Flight 6" (12 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2)

That should fit in the EC nicely and cost him all of 7 real points. He can then buy off the lims as he grows in experience and speed.

There are of course other ways you could limit the power, that;'s just one example.

I gotta go with Bloodstone on this.

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree with Bloodstone's take on this - buy the 6" Flight normally and another 6" heavily limited. I'd go as high as 10x END, and Act 8- (if he really strains, he can just maybe squeeze out that extra burst of speed) which probably means a cost of 6 points.

The player's sheet could simply show 6" Flight in the EC at a 6 point cost - the GM will know the full build. As the player raises the flight speed, simply remove the limits from the extra flight inches. Ultimately, he'll have a 12" flight speed, unlimited, and a standard EC slot.

[slikmar]

I agree with Bloodstone's take also, or similar, with the player not even realizing he can do it and letting the GM everyonce in a while having him be able to heroically go that extra couple inches.

[Vondy]

I would have the player to purchase the power outside the EC, but would suggest they apply a limitation "drained with EC," or linked. If, later, they increase the power to a point where it will "legally" fit into the EC, then I would allow them to reconfigure the character with the flight in the EC. Another option: provide a faux EC mechanic that circumvents the 5ER changes. I've allowed players to "build ECs that weren't ECs" on the understanding their entire power suite were narrowly related conceptually, and could be drained together, and given them a common limitation on all such powers. This allowed them not to worry about the size of the powers in relation to one another, or whether or not they cost endurance or whatnot, and get a savings.

[Hyper-Man]

Or you could do it the right way, which we all know is my way :p

E) Buy it as a compound power that helps reflect the eventual learning curve via mechanics. For example:

Believe It Or Not, I'm Walking On Air: Flight 6" plus Flight 6" (12 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2)

That should fit in the EC nicely and cost him all of 7 real points. He can then buy off the lims as he grows in experience and speed.

There are of course other ways you could limit the power, that;'s just one example.

This is the first option I thought of when looking at the original post as well. Repped!

[Black Rose]

Originally, I went with E: Other, which in this case means "Do the build as you see it, and deduct half the Active Points", since this is how I feel ECs should work. However, I find myself coming around to Bloodstone's PoV on this, especially since it's cheap. If the build became too pricey compared to my original method, I'd go back.

[JmOz]

I would do A probably, or the option of a limited higher version as sugested

But before either (and I realise this is a case specific answer) I would recomend buying the 12" of flight with the no NCM option (-1/4_ this is the same pace as a normal character going NCM...

[zornwil]

For a specific instance such as this, Bloodstone's is probably best, but generally speaking it will vary for me. I either monkey around with splitting up into multiple ECs to get around the point break issues, just giving half the points back for the smaller powers, or building compound powers.

[McCoy]

Or you could do it the right way, which we all know is my way :p

E) Buy it as a compound power that helps reflect the eventual learning curve via mechanics. For example:

Believe It Or Not, I'm Walking On Air: Flight 6" plus Flight 6" (12 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2)

That should fit in the EC nicely and cost him all of 7 real points. He can then buy off the lims as he grows in experience and speed.

There are of course other ways you could limit the power, that;'s just one example.
What he said.

[Wolfgar]

I'm going to throw in a lone dissenting opion against Bloodstone's method. It's not neccesarily bad, but it may be overly complicated for a new-ish player.

I would reccomend either just buying the power outside of the EC, or buying 6" of Flight with a +1 Advantage of some sort.

[Robyn]

Side Effect: character is afraid of heights (temporary).

If he pushes himself (to develop his powers of Flight) too fast, he really feels like that, too.

[Silbeg]

In the interest of matching several criteria, including player desires, playability, and simplicity, I would just go with the "pay full price" option. In fact, this is how Hero Designer would make you do it, in any case!

In effect, the character would have the 12" of flight, but 6" of it would have an implicit limitation of "No Conscious Control" (again, for ease of play, there would be no actual limitation, but more of an RP limitation).

Then, in certain game situations, the character may need to get a couple of inches closer to a target, or something, and surprisingly is closer!

Then, as the character gets used to his new power, he slowly learns that he can increase his velocity by perhaps 1"/session, or whatever.

[bigdamnhero]

E) Buy it as a compound power that helps reflect the eventual learning curve via mechanics.
This is basically what I wound up doing, tho the write-up really only exists in my head. To avoid confusing a new player, the character sheet just reflects having paid "full price" for 6" of Flight. At dramatically appropriate times, if the hero needs to go faster than that I'll allow him an EGO roll to do so.

Thanks again all for the good suggestions! :thumbup: