Reading FRED for the First Time

[LordSkatterhawk]

Greetings HEROphiles!

I've been an on-and-off visitor to these forums for some time now. I finally convinced my self to resist the ponderous nature and substantial size of FRED and registered. I received the aforementioned FRED as a early birthday gift along with Fantasy Hero, the Combat Guide Book, and the Equipment Guide Book. This great gift made me think that I needed some guidance. There's so much here, I don't know where to start.

That, my newfound friends, is why I have come to you. I have no illusions that I am the first one seeking a "reading guide" to the Fifth Edition. Perhaps my request will make such a reading guide known. Here's a little background that may prove helpful:

I have been playing RPGs for almost thirteen years. I have played Rifts, D&D (2nd, 3.0 and 3.5 editions), and several lighter systems such as Wu-Shu and FATE. None of these systems is bad, but I wanted something I could tinker with. HERO is a departure from my previous experience, but I think I can make the transition.

I have GMed all of these systems for most of my time as a gamer.

I currently have no group of players. I prefer Fantasy games, but I have played in other genres.

I dislike math but I can use mathematic concepts and a calculator to figure things out.

Please point me toward a reading order or some way to turn this intimidating set of books into my new system of choice. HEROphiles, you're my only hope.

Lord Skatterhawk

[Killer Shrike]

Hero System 5 (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HERO5ER.htm)

[Eosin]

Killer Shrikes stuff will give you the skinny on 5ER. Basically, read the character gen stuff, sans the powers. Read the combat section well with an eye towards what is standard fare and what is optional. That gives you an idea of what's what.

In the combat section skip most of the otpional rules. AT FIRST, they will only bog things down a bit. Run a few mock combats between standard fantasy opponents (you can find a whole slew of them on my site, KS also has several characters).

Optional Rules that generally get used in fantasy are pretty slim - bleeding, hit locations, and a few others.

There are a few additional books that you could use to transition into fantasy, foremost being Fantasy Hero which is hard to find. You could also do with Monsters, Minions, and Mauraders (fantasy beastiary), Fantasy Hero Grimoire (spells), and Hero System Beastiary (real world and generic beastiary). I'd look at them in the order given unless a player needed to build a mage, then you might want to advance the Grimoire up one notch.

Remember that you are by and large dealing with normals so the powers and all the funky rules for supers are necessary at this point. Also, much of the details of magic and the grit of the world are in your hands. If you want to run Forgotten Realms or Harn then you will need to figure out (ask) how to tweak certain facets of the game to get the desired feel.

[input.jack]

HERO system looks complex, but because its based on a logical foundation, once you get ahold of that foundation its not that bad.

Ive been playing HERO since the early 1980's, so...I think I may not exactly be able to relate to your problem, since Ive been there for HERO's evolution, and gotten it in small, bite-sized chunks. However, I can empathize with your problem, and Ill try to help.

First, Id start off by reading the chapter on character design and construction. It will introduce you to a lot of terms that are important for the game system. Then, Id go to the combat section, and read (carefully) the basics of combat. Dont concern yourself with things like skills or specific combat maneuvers yet; give the basics time to sink in.

The basic framework for HERO is that, rolling 3d6 to give you a bell curve of probability, you determine whether you succeed at variious tasks. Skills are resolved by rolling your skill score or less on 3d6 (the higher you buy a skill, the better you are at it). Combat is a bit more complicated, but essentially boils down to this. Each character has an Offensive Combat Value (OCV) and a Defensive Combat Value (DCV). To see if you hit, start with a value of 11 (average for 3d6), add the attacker's OCV, and subtract the defender's DCV. The number you have is what you need to roll (equal to or less than) in order for the attacker to hit.

Thats the basic framework of the game.

Everything else is just additional detail that builds on that.

After skimming the character construction parts of FRED, Id recommend taking a look at the Combat Guidebook. It should have the best synopsis of the combat system. Remember; you dont have to memorize everything in the game all at once. Just having a general idea of where to go to look something up is fine ;)

Fantasy Hero and the Equipment Guidebook are both -excellent- resources for constructing your own campaign. One of HEROs main strengths is that you can create virtually ANYTHING in the system. The other side of that coin is that you end up having to create a lot of your world yourself. But books like the Equipment Guidebook and Fantasy Hero are invaluable when it comes to creating your own fantasy campaign, in that much of the groundwork is there for you. (Us old-timers had to do it all ourselves) ;)

I hope this has been helpful. Its always good to see someone joining the HERO community! :)

[arcady]

You have a good set of starting books. However I would have recommended one of the FH Grimoires, and one of the two FH settings before the equipment and combat guides - given your interest in fantasy.

The Grimoire will show you how to use the massive power design engine to build spells. FH covers that, but the Grimoire gives examples.

The two settings, and especially Turakian Age, will show you how to put the whole package together. Turakian Age feels like 'everything good in DnD', minus everything bad... so it makes a great launching pad for a DnD gamer into Hero.

As for rules... don't try to memorize the powers, skills, and so on. Just learn the basic structure of how it comes together. You can pick up the individual skills and powers over time in play.

For now you just need to know how to make a skill roll, how to roll to-hit and calculate damage, managing the speed chart, Hero style rounding off, and the was Hero sets its 'break points' on divisions of 5.

The first things I always teach new players are using OCV / DCV (11+OCV-3d6=DCV you hit), and rolling X or less on 3d6 to succeed at a task. Once they have that, they can play, and everything else sort of fills in over time.

For -reading- the book, I'd read the basics of play, and the basics of using a skill, using a power, and for combat - skipping all the options and complexities for now. Read the powers by name as you start to build magic spells, and then the details of the ones that seem right as you do the actual building. Most of the skills have names that imply what they do, so you can leave reading the details to the first time they come up in play.

The exception is Seduction and Persuasion, each of which does what the name of the other one implies (shrug).

The combat manuevers are the same - name sort of implies function. With new players what I like to do is start out not using them in my tactics, but with each combat I have my NPCs try one new manuever, and when it comes up I assign a player to read the rules for it out loud, so everyone learns at the same time.

I use the same trick for powers, but of course I start using them right away - so the first combat is usually 75% reading of rules... :)

[Enforcer84]

Also tip your HERO mentors Generously.









:D
I keed I keed.

[Thia Halmades]

Too many Lords. Lord Liaden, Lord Mhoram, and there's some guy... Lord Captain something or other. Oh, right. That would be the Lord Captain Thia Halmades. Me. And I was sitting pretty much exactly where you are - I switched systems and wondered what I'd gotten myself into. So I'll do whatever I can to help out.

First. Gen a couple of characters. Get an idea in your head - come onto the boards if you need help, but the book is pretty good about walking you through it. Once you start putting your character together, you'll start asking all sorts of questions, so my first piece of advice is pretty simple:

Write those down. Not sure why something is costed the way it is? Write that thing down. Don't tinker with it yet. Before you start mucking with the recipe, it's important to cook the dish first and figure out what you do or don't like, THEN mess with the ingredients. So. Step one, build some characters. This is something I never did because I tend to fly more by the seat of my pants and learn through osmosis. Don't ask. Somehow, it worked! But don't ask. I recommend doing things a little more conservatively.

However, this system lets me do whatever I want within a rules-defined environment. There are holes, but we'll save those for another discussion. Fantasy Hero is a GREAT book and is going to serve you very well. Both Ghost-Angel & I agree that the Combat Handbook is indispensible, and the books that I always have are:

Combat Handbook
Equipment Guide
Ultimate Skill
Ultimate Martial Artist

[ghost-angel]

Personally, put the other books aside and start with the main rules for now.

Combat can be part of the most complex aspect of Actual Play. Actually, it's the only complex aspect of actual play. And it's not that bad.

But get Character Creation understood first. Everything flows from that.

The Equipment Guide is a good place to see example builds, so it's a good companion.

Fantasy Hero is an awesome book, but it's more of a "this is a way to use the system" book than anything else. I'd set it aside for a minute.

As you're reading through 5ER don't hesitate to get online and ask any old question you've got. We answer everything.

And the first thing you're going to notice when we answer questions: The same question will get a bunch of answers. All of them (more or less) correct. This is the part that confuses new players the most - the idea of 12 Right Answers.

Don't worry. If your head explodes we have super glue.

[TheQuestionMan]

[Compilation] "to Fantasy HERO Conversions & Adaptations"
http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24968%3Cbr%20/%3E

First of all before everybody jumps on the too much information topic, I would like to point out that this list does allow new HERO Gamers to draw parallels between HERO System and Gaming Systems they may already be framiliar with.

Also in many cases the work is already done for them. The forum members that have already posted are some of the most producive and creative around so your in good hands.



Cheers

QM

[LordSkatterhawk]

Personally, put the other books aside and start with the main rules for now.

<Butcher good advice for brevity. Sorry.>

Don't worry. If your head explodes we have super glue.

I am glad to hear that you have super glue. My head will probably need some at one point or another. Although I did delete most of your excellent post in my quotation, I think I've got a handle on where to begin.

I was amazed at how many responses I found when I returned to the forums this morning. Thanks everyone! I will not hesitate to post questions when I run into them. The 12 Answers to One Question phenomenon does not scare me. I think that is part of the reason I wanted the system. I hate being told that only one method will work.

Here's a summary of what I've learned from your helpful replies:

1) Concentrate on FRED, especially building characters. Build a few different types and then run a simple combat or five.

2) Read FRED like an encyclopedia. Look at headings and concepts before specific lists and go back for details as characters are being built.

3) Ask questions at the forums even though the answers will vary.

4) Don't be discouraged.

I know that my first post here was a simple question you have probably seen hundreds of times. Thanks for patiently and quickly answering my question. I'll try to return the favor as I mature in my knowledge of the game. That's the only way I could think of to repay everyone.

One more thing: do I need to post my initial questions somewhere else? I was hoping to post them here, but I realize this is the Fantasy Hero section. Some people might object to general questions being asked here. I want to anticipate those concerns and avoid potential problems. If I need to take questions to a new forum, which one should I pick?

Skatterhawk (see I dropped the title)
- The Man without a Signature

[ghost-angel]

More generalized questions could go in the Hero System Discussion board. You're also more likely to get a wider range of answers as not everyone goes into the specific genre sections.


almost forgot: Welcome To Hero.

[CraterMaker]

Welcome aboard, Lord ScatterHawk!

I don't have much to add to what these other fine gentlemen have said, just wanted to emphasize that we're here if you need some help, so don't be cautious about asking questions. Post what you come up with, too - Theres probly 3 or four other people new to the system who are not asking the questions they might have here, so your questions will help others as well..

did that make sense? More coffee, please..

-CraterMaker

[GreyGuardian]

When you get to looking at the optional combat rules etc. once you are familiar with the basics you probably should read the combat guide instead of the 5th revised version as the contents of 5th are in there along with other good stuff from other books like ultimate martial artist. Having all those bits and pieces is a good thing.

Another way to get a feel for the system is pick up a few of the digital hero issues...somewhere on the boards is a listing of which issues have adventures and what genra those adventures are in.

If you intend to run a game or at least have the urge to prepare to run one it might be wise to post a general concept and ask folks which books they recommend.

One very key concept to HERO system is always start with the special effect of what you are trying to do and then figure out which powers / skills / etc. are needed to do that.

[Eosin]

One more thing: do I need to post my initial questions somewhere else? I was hoping to post them here, but I realize this is the Fantasy Hero section. Some people might object to general questions being asked here. I want to anticipate those concerns and avoid potential problems. If I need to take questions to a new forum, which one should I pick?

Skatterhawk (see I dropped the title)
- The Man without a Signature

Either works fine. This forum will get you answers for running a normals/fantasy game while the other forums will generally assume you mean Champions unless otherwise stated. Personally, I'd stick to asking fantasy related questions (mechanics or otherwise) in this forum unless you are prepping for another style game. In the "general forums" the chaff tends to wash out the targeted answers but try both to see what suits you best and where you get the desired responce.

Oy yeah, welcome to the Hero System.

[bigdamnhero]

The 12 Answers to One Question phenomenon does not scare me. I think that is part of the reason I wanted the system. I hate being told that only one method will work.
Yep, you'll fit in well here. :thumbup:

One minor note: around here, "FRED" is usually used to refer to the 2001 edition (~370 page) of the 5th Edition rules. The 2004 Revised Edition (~590 pages) is typically refered to as "5ER." If you're not sure which one you have, just count the pages or see if the cover has the words REVISED in large friendly letters. Not trying to sharp-shoot you, just didn't want you to get confused later on. :)

Welcome aboard!

[Robyn]

As you're reading through 5ER don't hesitate to get online and ask any old question you've got. We answer everything.

In small doses. A few at a time, we will answer virtually an unlimited number of questions ;)


And the first thing you're going to notice when we answer questions: The same question will get a bunch of answers. All of them (more or less) correct. This is the part that confuses new players the most - the idea of 12 Right Answers.

We need to start telling them it's like advertising theory. If someone had just told me that from the beginning, I would have been much less concerned about the "best" way of building these things ;)

[ghost-angel]

In small doses. A few at a time, we will answer virtually an unlimited number of questions ;)

Everything All At Once Right Now.


More 'n' Faster.

[Robyn]

Everything All At Once Right Now.

Now, that's an interesting thought. Some questions may have come up only because I didn't read the other chapters, but how many more questions would I have come up with after reading the other 6 chapters? :eg:

[Thia Halmades]

Ugh. The fact you seem proud of not having read the whole book just... boggles me. Not a big deal, really. But it's boggling. I'm boggled. I'm also globed, bed, lobed, and oggled.

Dude, where's that super glue?

[Korvar]

Hero System 5 (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HERO5ER.htm)

Annoyingly, I still have to spread some rep around before I can rep this.

Good job, Mr. Shrike. Very good job.

[Robyn]

Ugh. The fact you seem proud of not having read the whole book just... boggles me.

Not proud. Just . . . appreciative of how bad it could have been ;)

[LordSkatterhawk]

Hello again everybody. I'm glad to see that the conversation has not died without me. :)

I ran into a problem with the rounding. Let me see if I understand it correctly.

There are three rounding situations:

1) When multiplication or division is involved. The rule is to round off in favor of the player but alway charge at least 1 CP. I think I understand this one.

2) When a rule specifically instructs you to round a specific way, such as SPD (which always rounds down).

3) When an Advantage or Limitation gives you a fraction. Here's where I am stuck. How does 3/4 round to 1/4? .75 should round up because it is over .5. I might figure this one out, but the logic escapes me.

I know what you're saying: "Oh man! This guy cannot even make it through the introduction before he asks a boneheaded question." Well, what can I say? At first I read past it, but then I remembered you guys wanted to help with any and all questions.

Anyway, I'm going to plunge ahead with the text.

Skatterhawk

[Thia Halmades]

Hey Skatterhawk:

Not sure I understand the question. The fraction thing comes in when we're dealing with Advantages & Limitations, basically the core of the design system. If you'll look at my signature a moment, you'll notice that it's a complete build, and better, a pretty complicated one, which makes it a good example.

To calculate the cost of my Holy Ice Cream Cone of Smiting, you would take the base cost of the ability, in this case, Hand Attack (HA) and figure out how many BASE POINTS that is - the cost of the power straight up. Then, add together all of the Advantages, add one to the total, and multiply! Hence: HA +10d6 is 50 points, Penetrating (+1/2) = 50 x 1.5 = 75 ACTIVE POINTS. Once you've done that, and you've figured out the Active Points (75), you would then take all of your LIMITATIONS, Add One, and divide. OIF (-1/2) and HA (-1/2) = -1, so we divide by 2 (an additional -1 is deducted, the same way an additional +1 is added). Round down in my favor, and voila. 37 total points.

Unless that's not what you're asking at all, in which case this will be very helpful later. :D

[ghost-angel]

Thia, they're refering to Rounding Fractions (5ER p7)

LordShatterhawk; you've reached the first thing about Hero that sets it out from the rest of pretty much everything. When you get to the Power Section you will be introduced to the concept of Advantages and Limitations. In short: Things you use to alter your Power for better (or worse)

Advantages are expressed as positive fractions. As the Rounding Fractions section implies when an Advantage (bonus) is worth +3/4 and something causes it to be half as useful it is divided in half, well half of 3/4 is techically 3/8. But that's not a number Hero uses in it's Advantage structure (Hero uses only increments of 1/4). So it must be rounded to the nearest Advantage Increment, in favor of the player per Rule 1 you noted, so it becomes a +1/4 Advantage.

Limitations work the same way.

I hope that helps.

[LordSkatterhawk]

Thia,

That might be related to my question, but I haven't read that far. Here's the quote that's given me trouble for clarification.

5er (pg. 7 under the heading Rounding Fractions) Says:
"Sometimes the rules require the character to halve the value of an Advantage or Limitation, which is expressed as a fraction. In that case, the rounding is in favor of the character, as usual. For example, +3/4 rounds to +1/4 (since it’s best for the character), while -3/4 rounds to -1/2; +1¼ rounds to +1 1/2, -1 1/4 rounds to -3/4."

Somewhere this means that half-an-Advantage rule will crop up. Lets say its a +1 Advantage for ease of use. Cutting that in half is easy: +1/2. If 3/4 is cut in half (summoning weak math skills... please wait....) then the equation for rounding is (3/4 x 1/2)= 3/8 or .375.

<Epiphany>Oh! .375 is not an easy fraction or decimal so it rounds to the closest one ala 1/4 (or .25). I think Hero is going to help my math skills.</Epiphany>

I guess you can consider me a bonehead after all. Consider my confusion withdrawn. That will teach me to ask a question at the drop of a number.

Okay, back to reading. I'll return with a better question. Thanks for your example though Thia, I'll come back to it later.

Skatterhawk
Hero has taught me:
- Fractions and the multiplication thereof
- Freedom in gaming has a price... but its not too high.

The Boards have taught me:
- Be a faster typist.

[ghost-angel]

- Freedom in gaming has a price... but its not too high.

sigged.

[LordSkatterhawk]

sigged.

I don't want to run into the dreaded double-post, and this post will put me close. I just wanted to point out one thing. Before I do that though, let me say, "Thanks ghost-angel! I'm glad I could get into your signature. You even fixed my grammar."

Here's the problem: you spelled my callsign as LordShatterhawk. Close, but that would be someone else. I'm LordSkatterhawk. Maybe I should be Shatterhawk, but I'm leaving that one open for the next Lord to walk in. :thumbup: Anyway, just fix it in your signature before you embarrass me.

Lord Skatterhawk
Hero has taught me:
- Fractions and the multiplication thereof
- Freedom in gaming has a price... but it's not too high.

The Boards have taught me:
- Be a faster typist.

[ghost-angel]

:whistle:

[Thia Halmades]

Hey Skatterhawk:

In the User CP section you can modify your sig and add in those notes you've made for yourself. Much easier than typing them (for example; my HICCOS is sigged; GA's notes are sigged as well).

That's the third time I've been sigged, too. I'm moving up in the world!

[LordSkatterhawk]

Thanks Thia for that advice. I now have a signature for every message.

I've decided to build my initial test character. I'm looking to keep it simple, since this is my first character in a new system. I'll probably use a package or two as a jumping-off points for my 75+75 Heroic character and treat 5ER as reference. It will probably take some time, but I think the best way for me to understand the system is to do something with it.

Does anyone else have any advice for me as I embark on this endeavor?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to include my concept at this point: a young conscript into the army of an established kingdom. He's going to be from a society that values personal valor and physical appearance in its leaders. Since his clan was conquered, he must serve 5 years with the military. His young age and small frame make him suitable to work as a rider with the Royal Post (think Fantasy Pony Express: when the king or a noble needs a messenger, they go for these guys).

Thanks for all your support everyone! :D

[Robyn]

I now have a signature for every message.

If you really want to, the number of underscores before a sigline are 18. I've counted them, in the past, when I wanted to create a custom signature for a single message.

[Pattern Ghost]

Does anyone else have any advice for me as I embark on this endeavor?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to include my concept at this point: a young conscript into the army of an established kingdom. He's going to be from a society that values personal valor and physical appearance in its leaders. Since his clan was conquered, he must serve 5 years with the military. His young age and small frame make him suitable to work as a rider with the Royal Post (think Fantasy Pony Express: when the king or a noble needs a messenger, they go for these guys).

Thanks for all your support everyone! :D

Here's a sample of character building that I put up a while back. You may find it useful:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=62124#post62124

Edit: One thing you'll note on the characteristics portion of the sample is that I take a bit of advantage of rounding rules to get the numbers to come out to nice round numbers. For example, 15 STR and 13 CON contribute 8 (7.5 rounded up) and 7 (6.5 rounded up) to the STUN total. Then I take 15 BODY so I come out with a nice even 30 STUN and enough BODY to survive taking some killing damage. I also used rounding with Running taken at 7". This gives a 4" half move (3.5" rounded up), which can come in handy. This isn't anything abusive per se, and most long time players use rounded numbers pretty much instinctively. It's just a quirk of the way that rounding works that tends to devalue some of the off values.

[LordSkatterhawk]

Thanks Pattern Ghost for that link. I've been pouring over the skills chapter trying to follow your lead. Additionally, for these first few characters, I have decided to design on a 50+50 budget because that limits some of my options. Unfortunately, I've been having a tough time getting these test characters finished. I have a rough concept and I get going. However, I can never seem to get all the pieces together. I either spend too much on skills or too much on Characteristics. I think I am suffering from "option-shock." I've never had so much freedom and so many widgets (re: skills and Characteristics) to move around.

Should I just up the point total? Should I steal some of Killer Shrike's excellent Fantasy Hero packages and try to run some Skill v. Skill challenges? Should I leave the Characteristics alone except for the ones essential to my concept? I know that I have presented lots of questions, but I feel like my time reading the rules has opened up a new vista and I don't know how to reach what I see on the horizon.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'd suggest going ahead and building the character over budget, then trimming it down from there. That can help tighten up your concept. Why don't you post the over budget version and we can help trim it down on the boards?

[Pattern Ghost]

You know, one thing that's possibly making creating a character difficult is trying to do it in a vaccuum. Every GM will tend to set their own benchmarks and expectations for the game. The table with suggested power levels is a good rough guide, but its just that: rough. I'll write up some stuff on each power level, and maybe that'll help you find a comfort zone to play in with character generation.

BASICS:



Characteristics: All stats flow from the default values (10s on primaries with default figureds), that are the normal, or average human. Most games make this assumption, I think. Now, as we rise in power levels, we move further and further away from the norm. You should try to keep well within the Normal Characteristics Maxima for most levels of power until you hit into superheroic. The system isn't super granular at low levels, because of the way skill rolls are derived from them, but in general a 13 to 15 is a very solid stat and anything higher is going to wow and amaze the normal Joes with 8s and 10s in the same areas.

So, rising in power from a normal guy to a hero is definately easily done with Characteristics, but you shouldn't spend too much of your budget here, especially at lower power levels. (There are concepts that are clear exceptions to this, but in general you get a more "balanced" feel from spreading points into other areas.)

Skills: Here's where you can really set yourself apart from the norm. Most folks only have their default Everyman Skills. In fact, all of your PCs also have the Everyman Skills, and you should keep that in mind when creating your character. For example, in a modern setting, most folks can drive a car. Unless your character is a professional driver and driving is going to be a big part of the setting, there's usually no pressing need to take Combat Driving.

Keep in mind, the skills section is primarily a list of adventuring skills. Many of these skills aren't really accessable to the general population. When people talk about taking Background skills to flesh a character out, they're talking about taking those without a direct adventuring application.

Talents: Normal people don't have any talents. These are a bridge between Powers and Skills, and mostly built with the Power rules underlying them. Conceptionally, a normal human without real powers can have a talent. For lower level campaigns, this is where you stop, as many powers aren't really appropriate. Some of the more powerful talents may also be out of scope of some lower level genres.

Powers: You can do a LOT with Powers. It's probably best NOT to do a lot with them at first. Powers can range from increasing basic movement (extra inches of Running, Swimming, within NCM), to creating super-skills (AOE, Selective on an RKA to simulate rapid fire shooting against multiple targest for example), to creating magic spells or super powers. In most lower level games, you won't need to dip into the Powers section.

This next section will run long, so I'm going to break out into a post with a sample character for each power level next.

[Pattern Ghost]

NORMALS

Incompetent Normal

This really a pretty useless entry on the table when it comes to playing with the system. It's a guideline for building an Incompetent Normal level NPC for the DNPC disadvantage.

Standard Normal

This is where the system sees normal folks. If you wanted to build an average real world person, you'd start here. All of your characteristics points are coming from Disadvantages, and you don't have a lot to spend.

Let's make an ex-Con for a quickie example.

I'm going to figure my ex-Con is probably a strong arm robber type. Just a petty criminal recently released for the tenth time. So, he probably has a bit above average strength and physical prowess. He's got a bad reputation and is Watched by the autorities. Since my points budget is deriving only from Disadvantages, I'll start there:

Hunted: Local Authorities: More Powerful (15), NCI (5), limited geographical area (his hometown/county) (-5), and frequency is 8- (0), and the hunter is Watching (-10). Total points: 5.

Reputation: ex-Con, 8-. Extreme. Total points: 10.

Social Limitation: ex-Con. 11- frequency. Total Points: 10

That's 25. Now, I could replace Reputation with Distinctive Features: Prison Tattoos, but that's less personal. This guy is pretty much an outcast in his own community. He's in a bind because it's hard for him to get legitimate work and he's not allowed to associate with his old criminal contacts for fear of violating his Parole and going back to jail. I'm sure that if you asked the board for examples of 25 pts worth of limitations for an ex-Con you'd get a variety of different builds, mostly better than this, but they'd all probably be right. The point is we have some traits that help define the character and we have some points to build with.

Now, for chacteristics and skills:

15 STR 5
11 DEX 3
13 CON 6
10 INT 0
10 EGO 0
13 PRE 3
10 COM 0
05 PD 2
03 ED 0
02 SPD 0
06 REC 0
26 END 0
25 STN 0

Total: 19

Skills:

3 Streetwise 12-
3 +1 with Punch/Grab/Block

Total: 6

What we end up with is a very Characteristics heavy guy. He's a basic Brick, really. He'll pulp your average 7-11 owner pretty easily, but he doesn't have any stand out skills. Just a bad attitude, a bad rep, and a little street smarts.

Actually, Bricks are a pretty simple archetype to build, so I'll probably be using them again.

[TheQuestionMan]

Narosia Sea of Tears
http://www.narosia.com/



Cheers

QM

[TheQuestionMan]

More Narosia Sea of Tears
http://www.narosia.com/



Anyway you get the idea.

QM

[Pattern Ghost]

Skilled Normal

This is someone who could probably fit into the real world, but they're the exceptional people. You're talking professional atheletes, soldiers of fortune, brilliant scientists, etc. This is probably the lowest level you'll see used in a game. At this level, you're talking a very gritty campaign, usually, where death is a very real possibility and while you have abilities that put you above the rest of humanity, you aren't above the World laying the smack down on you. In terms of fiction, we'd be talking about any of the more realistic genres, like the war movie, a Western (of the more realistic variety), Republic serials, etc. Ever see Tales from the Gold Monkey (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083488/)? I liked that show and to me it's a good example of the 25+25 power level. Here's a better plot summary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_the_Gold_Monkey).

Let's make Jake Cutter.

Let's see. Jake is a pilot who owns his own plane. He's a veteran and can hold his own in a fight. He has a love interest who gets herself into trouble fairly regularly. He's the father of seven kids and a pastor.. no, wait, wrong series.

Pretty basic. I'll divide his points pretty evenly among stats and skills.



13 STR 03
14 DEX 12
10 CON 00
10 BDY 00
13 INT 03
10 EGO 00
13 PRE 00
12 COM 01
03 PD 00
02 ED 00
03 SPD 06
05 REC 00
20 END 00
22 STN 00

Total: 25


He gets a bit above average STR because he's a pretty big guy and can toss a good solid punch, but he's not the strongest guy on the island, either. He does have good reflexes as shown by his ability to make the punches land, fly with far above average skill (this could be skill levels, but it's also evidence of genral dexterity), and he's been seen to be pretty deft and to show good reflexes in general. His CON and BODY were left baseline because he's never shown anything out of the ordinary there. I bought up his INT and PRE because he does show a propensity for outwitting his opponents. I tossed him a point of COM because he's not a bad-looking guy. Afterall, he not only has his DNPC, but a villain lusting after him as well.

Skills:

3 Combat Pilot 12-
1 Fam w/Mechanics 8-
3 Tactics 12-
3 Streetwise 12-
3 +1 level with Punch, Block, and Dodge
2 AK: South Pacific 11-
5 Contact: "Bon Chance" Louis 11- (Contact has useful skills +1pts, has access to major institutions 1pt, has contacts of his own +1pt)
1 Fringe Benefit: Passport
1 Fringe Benefit: Licensed to operate his air freight business.
2 WF: Small Arms
1 TF: Small Aircraft

Total: 25

Ok, here's where we really feel the crunch of being a fifty point hereo. It's not easy to model cinematic types on a low budget. Still, he's a fairly good example of an everyman type hero and the build captures (most of) his essential abilities.

Disadvantages:

Hunted by Nazis, 8-, More Powerful, NCI, Limited Area, wants to Harshly Punish. Total: 15 pts.

DNPC Sarah White, Slightly Less Powerful than PC (0), Useful Non-Combat Position or Skills (-5), Occasionally Shows Up 11- (10) Total: 5 pts

Unluck 1d6 Total: 5pts

Total: 25 pts.

Basically, the two biggest sources of Jack's adventures seem to be the Nazis and Sarah, and just plain dumb luck. These teaser videos (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=goldmonkeydotcom)give an idea of the kinds of trouble he gets into.


Competent Normal is the example I linked to above, so I'm going to skip it for now.

[Pattern Ghost]

HERO

Standard

OK, now we're up to the minimum power level that's the real comfort zone of the system, Heroic! It is, afterall, called the Hero system.

I think that if you come from other rpgs, the 75+75 level is probably a lot easier to deal with. While you may have examples of 25+25 or 50+50 in the lower ends of some games, those power levels are pretty quickly left behind with experience.

At 150 points, a character achieves a level of competence that sets them pretty far from every day reality, but firmly in cinematic reality, where a bullet still hurts quite a bit. Games like Top Secret: SI, and DnD at around level ten or so, hit this power level. Games like Twilight 2000 or Traveller would probably hit the 50+50 level. Of course, these are rough estimates and subject to debate, but I hope that's helpful as a rough guideline.

I think the most common genre that people use 75+75 for is Fantasy, followed closely by cinematic action genres.

... to be continued...

[LordSkatterhawk]

Hey Everybody,

I have one more final at the University before I have time to devote to finishing up some of my character ideas. The learning curve of Hero won't stop me from learning the system. Now I just need a group! (Yes, it is that age-old struggle fellow gamers.)

I just thought I should make a quick appearance to convey my thanks to The Question Man and Pattern Ghost for providing me with what I really needed: benchmarks. I'm so used to the 3-18 spread with point breaks at the even digits that the 10 base of Hero took a little getting used to. I think I have a handle on things now and I am unsure why it took me so long. After all, the average score in a 3-18 spread is 9-10.

Thanks for being so willing to provide examples and extended discussion to help a new guy! I'll post my sample character here when I am done and then it is on to fisticuffs for them. Why? I chose fistfights because I don't need equipment to test combat that way. :thumbup:

Truly,

[mudpyr8]

Welcome to the fold. I looks like everyone has things well in hand, but I thought I'd pop up and offer a couple rounds of combat training if you feel up to it. I use MapTool (http://www.rptools.net) and can host a Hero combat session or two.

Email me at narosia.com if you are interested.

[LordSkatterhawk]

"Thread, I saw unto thee, arise!"

I started a thread over here for my initial character experiments: http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1303582#post1303582

It's woefully incomplete and it deals with a cyber-spy, but I thought some of you might have constructive comments. Also, I wanted to let everyone know that I appreciated their advice while I was slogging through 5ER. I'll probably attempt a fantasy character after I work out more of the system. I haven't given up.

"I now return this thread to its regularly scheduled life cycle."