Corruption of power

[Steve]

It is said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Have you ever looked at this notion in a Champions campaign? Many superpowered sorts gained their powers suddenly, without any time to mentally prepare to deal with it, yet they emerge as heroes.

Why is this so?

What drives a person who gains powers to act with such selflessness?

Have they ever been tempted to use their powers to make their own lives better or indulge a desire?

For example, consider a mentalist with powers of telepathy, mind control, etc. If he sees a beautiful woman on the street, is there a temptation to use those powers on her? Even just using telepathy would give a boost to an attempt at seduction, let alone something more crude like mind control or emotion control.

Is the corruption of power a theme you've explored in a campaign, either as a player or GM? How did it work out?

[Metaphysician]

My thought: the underlying assumption is that, most people get away with not trying to make things better, out of a sense ( accurate or not ) of helplessness.

The sudden grant of power gives a person the ability to fulfill their previously unmanifested desires. . . but not all of them are necessarily bad.

In addition, just because you now have power, doesn't mean you suddenly don't care about social approval.

[Hermit]

I sort of assume that's where the supervillains come from, and why they outnumber the superheroes. More people will abuse the power than use it responsibly. PCs, being heroic (Hopefully) soon learn being super is only half the formula in being superheroes.

[jkwleisemann]

Personally, I have dealt with it a few times. While it hasn't shown yet, the corruption of power is a primary theme in my Scales out of Balance campaign on HC....

As a player, I've played several characters who had various forms of corruption as a factor, whether literal (Nucleon, the Radioactive Man) or more figurative (Mindgame, kind of a teenaged Menton until he thumped himself upside the moral compass and straightened himself out).

Personally, it's a theme I've kinda enjoyed working on. :)

[OddHat]

One theme of my campaign is that most Super-criminals tend to be in their teens or twenties, with only the worst of the lot remaining active as independent criminals into their late twenties and beyond. Same pattern as followed by normal criminals. Those Supers are the ones corrupted by power.

Young Superheroes are in it for the peer approval, the thrill, the fame, the money, idealism, a desire to serve, religious faith, and generally all the same urges that lead young people to do other forms of volunteer work and low paying public service. An idealistic adventure hungry kid in the real world may enlist in the military; in my campaign, that same kid with Superpowers may join up with the OSI. A devout Christian in the real world may choose to volunteer X hours per week as a Fire Fighter; in my campaign that same man, given powers, might choose to join his local volunteer Watchmen program.

I don't agree that power corrupts. We all have cruel and kind, selfish and selfless instincts and impulses, and more power allows someone who wants to indulge their dark side more freedom to do so. Still, most people do not torture their spouses, pets or children, rob their neighbors, or otherwise abuse their power on a level where concrete harm to others is direct and visible. I'd recommend looking into some books on the possible origins of altruism if you're interested in the subject; Barber's Kindness in a Cruel World is one of my favorites. de Waal's Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved is also excellent.

[BNakagawa]

I don't agree that power corrupts. We all have cruel and kind, selfish and selfless instincts and impulses, and more power allows someone who wants to indulge their dark side more freedom to do so. Still, most people do not torture their spouses, pets or children, rob their neighbors, or otherwise abuse their power on a level where concrete harm to others is direct and visible. I'd recommend looking into some books on the possible origins of altruism if you're interested in the subject; Barber's Kindness in a Cruel World is one of my favorites. de Waal's Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved is also excellent.

I think the Stanford Prison Experiment offers a fairly solid counterexample...

[OddHat]

I think the Stanford Prison Experiment offers a fairly solid counterexample...

Nope. Kids in the period of their lives where they're most likely to engage in dominance displays, broken into sub groups put under stress and in an environment with no incentive to cooperate. Of course they behaved cruelly to non sub group members. Doesn't change or challenge the survival value of cooperative and altruistic behavior within groups over time at all; it just suggests that non group members will under some circumstances be abused.

[Fireleaper]

My two cents is that yes power can corrupt and absolute power can corrupt absolutely, but it is the self controll/discipline/altruism of the person with power that is the key factor.

The problem i see in many supervillans is that either
A: they lack a certain degree of discipline and loose themselves on an ego trip,
B: They are too fanatically inclined with an idea (Frankenstein, Religeon, Someone being wrong, The only way to save the world is to destroy humanity etc.) and the gain of these powers decreases their humanity in some way (e.g. Menton and his puppets),
C: Have been seeking power for a while and have forgotten why they needed it, giving them the idle hands syndrome.

That being said some people are aware that they have power and are aware of the temptation to use it and set limits for themselves (e.g. will use telepathy powers in corporate dealings but only to confirm honesty of customers/partners) this is where i think that most supers start becoming hero's - when they choose to be limited by morality (morality as in some form of code or conduct that guides you in safe and responsible interaction with those around you.)

[Robyn]

My two cents is that yes power can corrupt and absolute power can corrupt absolutely, but it is the self controll/discipline/altruism of the person with power that is the key factor.

Interesting that you should say this and then:


(morality as in some form of code or conduct that guides you in safe and responsible interaction with those around you.)

Morality need not be altruism, the character might have their long-term survival (and prosperity) in mind and therefore be guided by greed to restraining themselves in pursuit of the largest profit over the course of their lives.

Short-sighted individuals might place their immediate lusts over their own futures, but in general morality could be motivated by an interest in helping oneself rather than others (or, helping oneself by helping others; specifically, those around you, to surround yourself with strong people who owe you and honestly want to express how grateful they are).

[Fireleaper]

Morality need not be altruism, the character might have their long-term survival (and prosperity) in mind and therefore be guided by greed to restraining themselves in pursuit of the largest profit over the course of their lives.


You are right morality need not be altruism. I place the example of long term greed you have written as a form of self controll. directing your greed into a long term plan and having the Discipline to carry it out.


Short-sighted individuals might place their immediate lusts over their own futures, but in general morality could be motivated by an interest in helping oneself rather than others (or, helping oneself by helping others; specifically, those around you, to surround yourself with strong people who owe you and honestly want to express how grateful they are).


Again I don't see this example as interfering with how I have described morality, although admittedly this example could represent a form of altruism (or lack of). I mainly wrote that comment on morality because it has never been accuratley described to me (lots of examples but no one has given me a solid definition), admitedly it may not be the best definition but it at least is a starting point.

Also have you noticed that some villans can be more moral than some hero's - it is just their method which causes problems. :eg:

[kiahoga]

Can power corrupt? Yes indeed it can we've seen it again an again throughout history Hitler,Po Pot,Stalin although with these examples you can also argue that they were corrupt before comming to power. But also you have situation where people with power used it for social change for the good of their people such a Cyrus the great of Persia, Teddy Roosevelt, and even Alexander Gram Bell .

The Problem with power is its a tool you use to accomplish your desires. where the corruption is in that the more you use it the more you can change your sense of self and how you precive the world around you and the people in it.

As a aside a new sieres on the networks called heroes does look at some of these issues .

[Narratio]

This happened by accident way back under 1st edition champions. The teams martial artist was living a hand-to-mouth existence in his secret ID. The Really rich super baddie made him a very nice financially worthwhile offer which was accepted. We did that as a RP away from the main group.

Came the next game night, the martial artist kept klutzing things up, but the other gamers thought he was just being a twit and not thinking about what he was doing. They win teh fight against the Super Baddies peons, the martial artist volunteers to guard them while the team goes in pursuit of super baddy and wham. He turned his coat and the peons and he disappeared, but it was the end of the night so we didn't play it. We all left, went down to the pub and did the usual after session bull.

The next game night it all came out. There was a huge real life argument between the players. And some extremely competitive combat between me handling the NPC bad guys, the MA and his ex-team mates. It was fun for all and, amazingly enough, the whole group started playing differently. It honestly affected all involved. Still makes me shake my head in wonder.

[jkwleisemann]

On the corruption of power as seen with superpowers:

Given that there's been a bit of debate over this subject, I'm going to throw my pennies into the jar.

In my mind, "power corrupts" doesn't mean "I have power... bwahahahahaha! I have no need to be moral ever again, because I can make everybody listen to me!"

At least not always.

Allow me the following examples:

Mindgame was a teenager, a geek, and generally about one step short of the bottom rung of the social ladder in his school. He developed potent telepathic powers. He wasn't 'evil' before, but now that he had the ability to make people do what he wanted and not get caught, he used it. What started out as lashing out against the people who belittled him turned into a borderline supervillain as he indulged more and more selfish desires. He eventually turned around though... at least in that he took on more positive general motivations and goals. He kept up some of his "bad habits" all the same.

In this case, power corrupts in the sense that is often portrayed by folks who don't necessarily get it at first (a lot of comic book writers that I've read, for example.... :rolleyes:).

Now, here's a (slightly) more subtle way of handling it, which will be demonstrated by another telepath, Professor Jurnix.

Professor Jurnix is a telepath cut from the same cloth as Professor X. Right down to the school he runs. He is a telepath capable of taking a person, erasing their mind and personality, and replacing it with something more to his liking. Also capable of subtle manipulation of luck and related things, but the telepathy's the main issue.

He has a vision of a world where mutants and humans live together in peace... there's just one problem. Some mutants aren't interested in that, and neither are some humans. Further, some mutants are more interested in trying to cobble together their lives rather than going through some idealistic crusade.

So, when necessary, he just gives a little mental nudge to people to keep them on track. No harm done, and it's for the greater good, right? Eventually, he arranges for the escape of a particularly powerful, psychopathic mutant from his mental ward... and, when he escapes, he has his second-in-command perform the mind-wipe (after all, it's a useful skill, she needs to practice it) and then reprograms him so that he's more useful to The Cause. This guy was a menace to society as he was before. He was going to be in a mental ward for the rest of his life, most likely, and erasing his base personality was the right thing to do. After that, it only makes sense to remake him in a more useful form.

Right?

After finding out that one of his students is an abuse survivor (took him all of 5 minutes to do so), he offers to completely erase the memories... and actually has to be fought off so that he doesn't do it. The fact that this person doesn't *want* to take the easy out (on account of being terrified of letting somebody into his brain enough where they could do that) doesn't matter until somebody else comes to his defense.

Ultimately, Jurnix isn't a bad guy... he's just a fanatic to a cause who's willing to ignore little things like commonly held morality. Normal morals don't apply to him because he's so much smarter than everybody else; he can see how things are going to turn out (assuming everything goes the way he thinks it will). He's powerful enough to avoid punishments for what he does, therefore, he doesn't have to worry about that, and can enforce his *own* brand of morality without serious fear of punishment.

This is the subtler, more insidious, form of power corrupting that can be so much more interesting....

[input.jack]

Yes, people have said "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". But theyve also said "the world is flat" and "menthol cigarettes are a good cure for athsma" (its true; my mother was told that when she was a teenager back in the 40's).

Just because someone says something, or even a LOT of people say something, doesnt make it true.

Right now, Im playing a character named Guardian Alpha in a campaign set in a fairly typical modern-day supers setting. His powers are basically those of Superman, and hes 17 years old.

He -could- abuse his powers incredibly. And Ill admit, the temptation -is- there (hes 17 and has X-Ray Vision. Do the math) ;)

But he doesnt. He doesnt eavesdrop on his friends' private conversations. He doesnt spy on people through their houses. He doesnt hover outside the window of the girl hes interested in and watch her through the walls. (Hmm...all things that Superman did in "Superman Returns"....):hush:

The point is that while, yes, there -is- a definate temptation to abuse your Powers, and while yes, there will be -some- people (maybe even most people) who do that, I believe that there are some people in the world with enough self-discipline and willpower, and enough of a sense of what is right and what is wrong, that they would refrain from abusing their Powers.



Oh, and jkwleisemann, Jurnix IS a "bad guy" ;)

[OddHat]

The point is that while, yes, there -is- a definate temptation to abuse your Powers, and while yes, there will be -some- people (maybe even most people) who do that, I believe that there are some people in the world with enough self-discipline and willpower, and enough of a sense of what is right and what is wrong, that they would refrain from abusing their Powers.


There are different types and levels of abuse. The occasional peek through a dress using X-Ray vision is qualitatively different from using your super-strength to rape and murder the prom queen. Most people would use their powers to improve their own lives in ways that did not directly cause harm to others, even if it meant minor violations of ethics or the law, just as most people drive over the speed limit or do what they can to pay as little as possible in taxes. The percentage of people who would use their powers in ways that do directly harm others (assault, robbery, rape, murder) would be about the same as the percentage of people who engage in those activities now. In most campaigns, by definition they would not be the Heroes; they'd be the Bad Guys.

[Enforcer84]

I know my vast amounts of power has corrupted me, to be sure.
Yup, I'm totally corrupted.
And powerful.
*sigh*

[Steve]

There are different types and levels of abuse. The occasional peek through a dress using X-Ray vision is qualitatively different from using your super-strength to rape and murder the prom queen. Most people would use their powers to improve their own lives in ways that did not directly cause harm to others, even if it meant minor violations of ethics or the law, just as most people drive over the speed limit or do what they can to pay as little as possible in taxes. The percentage of people who would use their powers in ways that do directly harm others (assault, robbery, rape, murder) would be about the same as the percentage of people who engage in those activities now. In most campaigns, by definition they would not be the Heroes; they'd be the Bad Guys.

This is pretty much what I assumed most people would do in campaigns that explored this issue. Some heroes seem to go out of their way to avoid using their powers to indulge themselves in even slight ways. Some heroes indulge themselves in minor ways, like peeping at the beautiful woman using X-ray vision or using invisibility to go places they shouldn't go (from corporate boardrooms to locker rooms). It's a gradual scale, one leading to total villainy on the far end of it.

If your character had mental powers, would they be tempted to "nudge" a traffic cop from giving them a citation for speeding, or getting that beautiful woman to go out with them? If they had enhanced physical abilities, would they be tempted to use them in professional sports, even if they have to hold back a lot to avoid showing too much ability? If they lost their job and had debts to pay, would they be tempted to get money other ways? I'm not saying they have to hurt people when giving into temptations, but just that the temptation to indulge "just a little bit" is there and what does that character do about it?

[schir1964]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned.

The phrase, "Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts absolutely", I think is not really addressing the, "I can do great and powerful thngs!", as the corrupting component.

I think it is addressing the, "I can do anything without suffering any consequences!", as the corrupting component.

Thus there tends to be a correlation between More Power and Less Consequences.

Someone who has no "Moral Bearing" as it were, may not have any quibbles about stealing for their own gain, but the consequences outweigh the benefits of doing so usually, so they won't steal unless they are convinced at the time that they can do so without consequence.

Thus, More Power = More Opportunities to steal without consequence.

And finally...

Power = More Bad Deeds Without Consequences = Corruption
Absolute Power = Any Bad Deed With No Consequence Ever = Total Corruption

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[OddHat]

If your character had mental powers, would they be tempted to "nudge" a traffic cop from giving them a citation for speeding, or getting that beautiful woman to go out with them?

These are unethical acts, the equivalent of getting a girl too drunk to say no. I wouldn't be tempted to do this at this stage of my life, but I might play a younger character who would if the storyline was about his learning process.


If they had enhanced physical abilities, would they be tempted to use them in professional sports, even if they have to hold back a lot to avoid showing too much ability?

This isn't unethical at all, and I've never accepted the rationale that it is. If you're naturally faster and stronger, and pro sports are your career, of course you'll use your abilities to compete. We don't ask 7 foot tall NBAers to play on their knees so short players will have more of a chance.


If they lost their job and had debts to pay, would they be tempted to get money other ways?

Sure, but then there are tons of legal things that many classic superpower sets would let you do to make money before you'd need to start smashing into ATM machines.


I'm not saying they have to hurt people when giving into temptations, but just that the temptation to indulge "just a little bit" is there and what does that character do about it?

Of my currently active characters, Flesh Gordon already uses the fame his powers have brought him to knit together an acting career, mostly b-movies and bad TV shows. Style would offer to carry satellites into low earth orbit for a few million a pop instead of the tens of millions it currently costs.

[jkwleisemann]

Oh, and jkwleisemann, Jurnix IS a "bad guy" ;)
You should've heard what his player/writer said when I said that. Since I don't want to get banned, I won't repeat it here. ;)

As for whether or not it always corrupts? Of course not! There wouldn't be any heroes if that wasy the case. :D

I just don't necessarily like the boy scouts who never even acknowledge that the temptation's there... or who think that giving in sometimes means you're actually a villain. :sneaky:

[TheQuestionMan]

The worst thing anyone can do is make some one feel powerless.

Suddenly you have POWER and can use it to affect yours and other peoples lives in a beneficial way. You are not powerless to change things. A masked or Secret Identity further allows you drop your inhibitions you place on yourself and the ones inforced by society.

Lawyer presents an eviction notice to tenants of an Apartment Complex leaving them out on the street. The Police have to help him do it, but the Superhero can make life extremely uncomfortable for him and there is very little the Lawyer can do about it.

Yes this set up an above the Law bit, but not above Justice.



Respectfully

QM

[Steve]

The worst thing anyone can do is make some one feel powerless.

Suddenly you have POWER and can use it to affect yours and other peoples lives in a beneficial way. You are not powerless to change things. A masked or Secret Identity further allows you drop your inhibitions you place on yourself and the ones inforced by society.

This is how I see young Peter Parker before he was bitten by that spider. He was bullied by other guys and ignored by the girls. He felt powerless. He pretty much was powerless.

Suddenly, he is given this great gift of power. He yields to the temptation they offer and uses those powers to make money and try to better his life. He pays the price for that choice, but a great hero is born in the process.

The greatest heroes are those who can resist this corruptive influence, to not yield to baser instincts. That doesn't mean the risk of corruption doesn't exist, that the temptation doesn't exist, but they rise above it somehow.

However, many of the greatest villains are those who were once heroes and fell. :eek:

[OddHat]

This is how I see young Peter Parker before he was bitten by that spider. He was bullied by other guys and ignored by the girls. He felt powerless. He pretty much was powerless.

Suddenly, he is given this great gift of power. He yields to the temptation they offer and uses those powers to make money and try to better his life. He pays the price for that choice, but a great hero is born in the process.


Actually, Peter just paid the price for failing to do the obviously right thing when it was easily within his power to do so. Had he grabbed the fleeing crook, Ben wouldn't have died, and Pete could have continued with a career in combat sports, preferably with a better class of employers and an agent to make sure he got paid. Of course, that wouldn't make for the same sort of superhero story. ;)

[Enforcer84]

Actually, Peter just paid the price for failing to do the obviously right thing when it was easily within his power to do so. Had he grabbed the fleeing crook, Ben wouldn't have died, and Pete could have continued with a career in combat sports, preferably with a better class of employers and an agent to make sure he got paid. Of course, that wouldn't make for the same sort of superhero story. ;)
I dunno, Peter Parker: Cruiser Weight Champion of the Ulimited Class Wrestling Federation, has a nice ring to it.

[Wanderer]

These are unethical acts, the equivalent of getting a girl too drunk to say no. I wouldn't be tempted to do this at this stage of my life, but I might play a younger character who would if the storyline was about his learning process.

Honestly, are you really, really sure you'd win over the temptation ?? I keep getting the impression that many people are probably idealizing themselves and the average (wo)man a bit too much about situations like these. I can see a lot of real and fictional people (myself definitely included) using superpowers to give oneself a lot of little unethical selfish nudges to the easy way in many situations, notwithstanding how much heroically they may act when they can make a difference. Revenge, power, and seduction fantasies are a very, very deeply ingrained part of human psyche. Not ever acting on them in any way under even the less harmful circumstances takes a rather unusual kind of psyche, one I feel would keep being unusual even among the crusader-minded folk that feel called to put on a cape and go protecting the world.

While many people would be too socialized to go the full way to murder and rape, and shumming the villain way, they might realistically go along with using powers for getting themselves financially affluent without honest toil and sweat, getting away with minor violations of laws and ethics, such as the aforementioned speeding/taxes bit, making oneself all but irresistible for scoring a quick easy seduction (check the millennia-old huge popularity of love spells and potions, folks!), and so on. Call to heroism does not necessarily mean call to sainthood. Yep, some people would not take even these kind of advantages, some might once had but got more idealistic, some former idealists might get more cynical in later days, and some pragmatists may stay such all their heroic careers, feeling that their heroic calling make some fringe benefits their due. As I am fond of thinking, continued willingness to put oneself on the line for the common good is the essence of an hero, not one's lifestyle. For every Clark Kent there is bound to be a Tony Stark and viceversa.

To quote a recent movie example, I'm quite persuaded that the average psychologically realistic superhero would be a lot more like Uma Thurman's character in My Super Ex-Girlfriend (altruistic heroic protector of the community, but also definitely not above using superpowers for getting oneself all kinds of selfish edges in personal issues like love life and revenge)

[OddHat]

Honestly, are you really, really sure you'd win over the temptation ??

Yes.


Not ever acting on them in any way under even the less harmful circumstances

That is close to the opposite of my posts on the subject. Most people won't act in ways that cause visible, concrete harm to other perceived group members. Who is perceived as a group member and how carefully we avoid causing abstract harm are affected by socialization.


getting themselves financially affluent without honest toil and sweat

Of course people will find profitable ways to use their powers, just as they do with their abilities in the real world.

[TheQuestionMan]

My view of myself is that of an Honoaurable person. When I freely give my word I will do something. I do it and damn the consequences. It has cost me to live with my ideals, but in the end I can look in the mirror and with wyre amusement be proud of who I am.

[Manic Typist]

Yes this set up an above the Law bit, but not above Justice.





Some would argue that Justice is the blind administration of Law.

Regardless, I would label this vigilante's actions as unjust.

[TheQuestionMan]

Some would argue that Justice is the blind administration of Law.
That is a corruption of its spirit for which it was intended.

Regardless, I would label this vigilante's actions as unjust.
I would label a Vigilante's action extreme and even against the law, but at the same time I understand what would make someone with the POWER effect change. When society and its laws do not work then there will always be those who get frustated and lash out. Sometimes blindly and other times at an intended target.


But, I am just speculating here

QM

[Wanderer]

Yes.

Good for you, man. You're definitely closer to Pearly Gates than me, in this regard.


That is close to the opposite of my posts on the subject. Most people won't act in ways that cause visible, concrete harm to other perceived group members. Who is perceived as a group member and how carefully we avoid causing abstract harm are affected by socialization.

And in this regard, I'm definitely persuaded that cheating with minor laws and making oneself as socially irresistible as your average filthy rich gorgeous charismatic superstar celebrity would quite slip under most people's ethical radar. I'd set the average morality's threshold just below petty theft (cfr. the huge popularity of copyright piracy).

Most people would refrain from blatant abuse of others... but would be willing to cut some ethical corners to give themselves the life of Hollywood superstars, if given the suddenly realistic chance of superpowers. That's why I feel seduction is a rather tricky meter to test the complete selflessness of the average superhero. Or to use a Hero game rules comparison: many people would likely balk at using outright Mind Control or Mental Illusions unless in the same circumstances where they 'd feel justified in using lethal force. Most people would likely see nothing wrong in magically granting themselves +30 PRE and/or 25+ in Persuasion and Seduction and putting them to good use.

[OddHat]

Good for you, man. You're definitely closer to Pearly Gates than me, in this regard.

I identify the use of "powers", whatever mechanics or SFX you use to describe them, to obtain sexual favors as causing concrete harm. You don't. It makes a significant difference. If you were asked "Would you cause concrete harm to a woman you cared for to gain sexual favors", I would be very surprised if you answered anything but "No".

Also, I'm in a happy, stable marriage and have a history of good relationships. If you'd asked me the same question at 14, I might have answered differently.

[Robyn]

Of course people will find profitable ways to use their powers, just as they do with their abilities in the real world.

Or, if they really want to be a hero, might find themselves suited to life as a modern-day Robin Hood, arranging for illegal/immoral profits to find their way into a bank account. Staying up all night to battle evildoers leaves one sleepy-eyed in the morning, and not able to work through the day. So why work? They're doing a public service. The public owes you money. So what if they don't see it that way? You're not asking them. They pay their taxes whether they like it or not. You just make sure those taxes go to you instead of the big bad IRS :whistle:

[oberon]

My favourite supers character started out as a stereotypical ex-athlete popular type, who became bitter when he found out that the real world didn't work the same way after school. And a (good) higher dimensional being fleeing persecution from their (evil) civilization. Said being discovers the only way it can continue to exist on this plane is to merge itself with a human 'host', who then gained absorber/blaster type abilities.

The character had a public ID, and initially became a hero, simply for the adulation he received. And was not afraid to occasionally use the powers to his benefit. It would have been equally easy for him to take a step the other way, and seek revenge on all the people he felt had wronged/crossed him.

Of course, over time he became more and more heroic due to the unconscious effect of the merged being.

But at the start, yes, he could have gone either way. Obviously, if he'd gone bad, I wouldn't have been playing him in that game ;)

oberon

[Manic Typist]

That is a corruption of its spirit for which it was intended.

I would label a Vigilante's action extreme and even against the law, but at the same time I understand what would make someone with the POWER effect change. When society and its laws do not work then there will always be those who get frustated and lash out. Sometimes blindly and other times at an intended target.



QM

A corruption? This I am less than sure on. Justice is a harsh mistress. Justice is not always fair. I think that is one of the best definitions I have ever seen, and I've seen a few.

And I said THIS vigilante's actions as unjust. A vigilante can act justly. The situation you spoke was one in which he was, to me, in the wrong.

[Robyn]

My favourite supers character started out as a stereotypical ex-athlete popular type, who became bitter when he found out that the real world didn't work the same way after school. And a (good) higher dimensional being fleeing persecution from their (evil) civilization. Said being discovers the only way it can continue to exist on this plane is to merge itself with a human 'host', who then gained absorber/blaster type abilities.


Of course, over time he became more and more heroic due to the unconscious effect of the merged being.

So, he wasn't consciously aware of the merged being? It's not that he was the higher dimensional being, in a sense?

I see excellent potential for WWYCD-like "corruption of power" scenarios here. Imagine that, during his heroic endeavors, he travels to a higher plane. Suddenly, the higher being separates and resumes its independent existence! It had to bond with him for survival, but now it is glad to get back to its own life.

And, as a consequence, the hero is now deprived of his powers. How will he react to discovering how his powers came to him? Will he accept his new status as an ordinary person? And how far will he go to regain his powers?

[OddHat]

Or, if they really want to be a hero, might find themselves suited to life as a modern-day Robin Hood, arranging for illegal/immoral profits to find their way into a bank account. Staying up all night to battle evildoers leaves one sleepy-eyed in the morning, and not able to work through the day. So why work? They're doing a public service. The public owes you money. So what if they don't see it that way? You're not asking them. They pay their taxes whether they like it or not. You just make sure those taxes go to you instead of the big bad IRS :whistle:

That would be based on the position that theft of illegal profits or tax monies does no concrete harm to perceived group members. Some would take that path, most wouldn't.

A basic flying space worthy brick could make millions working for any space agency in the world; he doesn't need to beat up drug dealers to pay the rent. Comic book conventions like "sports teams won't hire strong, fast people" set up a false dilemma in a setting that tries to address the realistic (as much as it means in a world with supers) temptations of powers.

[jkwleisemann]

On not hiring superpowered individuals for sports:

I actually don't see that as being all that ridiculous. Why? Two reasons.

1: Some of the supers are downright dangerous to the non-supers. If Ironside was playing football somewhere, it'd only be a matter of time before he accidentally dropkicked some poor schmuck's head into the next county.

2: Unions. I imagine that every player's union out there would fight tooth and nail to get superpowered players banned from playing, because "it's not fair" - they'd equate it to using steroids or other performance enhancements, and all other manner of tactics would come up. Ultimately, I imagine they'd be banned simply because nobody wants to lose all your other players for one powerhouse.

However! The failure to establish a superpowers league in most settings with widespread powers is, to me, a total and complete oversight. :)

[Metaphysician]

Frankly, I'm increasingly dubious of "fairness in sports" rules. While it can currently be justified on the grounds that things like steroids and such have nasty side effects. . . what happens when methods of enhancement are available that are as clinically safe as any other discretionary medical treatment?

In my opinion, "what happens" is alot of fuss, alot of sound and fury about fairness, and then the sports leagues give up and allow it.

In any case, point of demonstration, Aberrant. Even though the number of novas is too few to support team sports, you very quickly end up with the XWF, which is the same principle. I imagine even in a less iron setting, the emphasis would be on individual or pair sports over stuff like baseball, unless there are relatively standardized methods of acquiring metahuman powers cheap ( imagine a world in which Silver Avenger-grade upgrades are generally available for only a few hundred thousand dollars? You'd easily have entire pro sports teams buffed with them )

[OddHat]

GM: "This is a realistic game. Your character needs a job, and money issues will be treated seriously."

Player: "My character uses his super strength and speed to play pro football. I spend 5 points on Wealth and 1 point on Reputation."

GM: "He can't, the Unions won't let him."

Player: "Fine, he joins an Unlimited Class Football Team."

GM: "There aren't any. No Wrestling or any other pro sports either."

Player: "OK, he gets a job in an industry where super strength and speed can get him a great living. Maybe specialized construction work, or Aerospace."

GM: "Nope, the unions stop him."

Player: "Are you kidding? Unions are almost dead in Aerospace, and construction uses non-union labor all the time!"

GM: "Tough. In my world, Unions are all powerful."

Player: "OK, he squeezes coal into diamonds, then sells them to heavy industry at a fraction of the cost of regular industrial diamonds. I pay for the Professional Skills he'd need."

GM: "He can't. That's counterfeiting."

Player: "No it isn't. Industrial diamonds are made and sold every day."

GM: "The Unions won't let companies buy from you."

Player: "What?"

GM: "Pick something else."

Player: "Fine. He starts a one man construction company. I pay for the appropriate skills and perks. By himself, he can put up a house in less than a third the time it takes a normal crew, and people will pay extra thanks to his fine workmanship,"

GM: "No, Unions."

Player: "Unions can't do anything to a one man company!"

GM: "All powerful Unions."

Player: "OK, he starts a one man moving company."

GM: "The police stop him! And arrest and torture him for no logical reason!"

Player: "I'm going to hurt you now."

GM: "See! I knew everyone was evil!"

(Fight)

[FenrisUlf]

I dunno, Peter Parker: Cruiser Weight Champion of the Ulimited Class Wrestling Federation, has a nice ring to it.

Sure does. I'd pay to see him tangle with RVD or Chris Benoit.

Though Vince wuld be more interested in hiring the Hulk, what with his thing for muscled-up freaks...

[FenrisUlf]

Yes, people have said "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Well, not to pick nits, but I believe the saying is, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Though I feel that someone who would abuse superpowers (in a taking every unfair advantage that can way, not in a I'm gonna hurt you way) would probably abuse every advantage they could get regardless. Someone who would act selfish and self-serving with superpowers would be just as bad without. They just have less ability to get away with it.

[Robyn]

That would be based on the position that theft of illegal profits or tax monies does no concrete harm to perceived group members. Some would take that path, most wouldn't.

Then eliminate the most literal interpretation and have heroes beating up drug lords and taking their stuff :)

It worked for the Reapers in Dead Like Me ;)

[Robyn]

Though I feel that someone who would abuse superpowers (in a taking every unfair advantage that can way, not in a I'm gonna hurt you way) would probably abuse every advantage they could get regardless. Someone who would act selfish and self-serving with superpowers would be just as bad without. They just have less ability to get away with it.

An important point, and one that should not be lost amidst this thread's focus on superpowers, is that - even without superpowers - not all people are equal.

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.

[Enforcer84]

GM: "This is a realistic game. Your character needs a job, and money issues will be treated seriously."
Brrilliance snipped for bandwidth purposeses.
(Fight)
grumble grumble must spread rep grumble grumble

[OddHat]

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.

Nor should they. There's nothing unethical about using your natural advantages to build a good life for yourself and your family. It's only when you start to harm others that it becomes an issue.

Peter Parker didn't teeter on the edge of poverty for decades because he was highly ethical; he teetered on the edge of poverty for decades because the writers thought it made for a character the readers would be better able to identify with.

[Metaphysician]

Which is a fancy way of saying "the writers done screwed him over." Really, with his brains, he should have been more than able to get a decent paying job. . . except that anytime something came up, it *always* got messed up by horrible luck.

[FenrisUlf]

An important point, and one that should not be lost amidst this thread's focus on superpowers, is that - even without superpowers - not all people are equal.

Most people have no compunctions whatsoever about using whatever natural advantages they have - and anything they can get ahold of through improving themselves - to do better in life.


Nor should they. There's nothing unethical about using your natural advantages to build a good life for yourself and your family. It's only when you start to harm others that it becomes an issue.



And I agree with you both. It's the difference between rising as far as your natural talent and ambition can take you, and faking evidence of your boss breaking the law so you can blackmail him into givign you a position you couldn't fairly earn.

[TaxiMan]

In my campaign, I made it a given that mental powers corrupt. I believe that they are incredibly tempting, way beyond any physical power's temptation. So the corruption rate for mentalists is like 99.9%.

Plus, I didn't want to have to mess with telepaths and mind controlling freaks.

[Robyn]

And I agree with you both. It's the difference between rising as far as your natural talent and ambition can take you, and faking evidence of your boss breaking the law so you can blackmail him into givign you a position you couldn't fairly earn.

The difference I had in mind is more of an inferiority-complex mental defensive maneveur which goes "I'm not worse than anybody else, none of them are better than anyone else, how dare they pretend to be, I'll drag them down to my level and have the government pass laws to make them stay that way".

[Sadistic GM]

Power corrupts is a cliche, but like most cliches it is based upon a general truth. Apologies to the more sensitive types out there whose feelings may be hurt by this, but the cold hard fact is that many people are only altruistic for selfish reasons.
If you are powerless, behaving virtuously gives you a sense of empowerment. On the flip side, if you are powerful, you are less likely to face consequences for your moral lapses. Furthermore, once you begin to accrue power, you show up on the "radar" of other power-seekers...may of whom are unscrupulous and aggressive. Clinging to principles can often lead to a loss of power...so congrats, you got just enough power to be angerous, and then were promptly quashed by a truly ruthless bastard because you cling to your ethics.
Therefore, otherwise scrupulous people allow themselves small, pragmatic lapses to benefit their advancement...making the next lapse easier..etcetera.
Equally often, morality and ethics are themselves used as a means to power. Rhetorically and politically, to attract like minds to your banner, and restrict the actions of your rivals.
There is a pretty good argument to be made that any truly ethical person would eschew wordly power .If superhuman powers were thrust upon such a man, he may very well simply use them to remain secluded from worldly matters.
Of course, these are exactly the sorts of people who can end up having huge impact on worldy affairs by virtue of the example their code of ethics can set for others. Which, of course, makes them a threat to the powerful....round and round.
A lawful evil general finds his kingdom under attack, while a weak boy king holds the throne. The general usurps power, imprisoning the lad, and ruling by decree. Dissidents , including those whose race or religion matches the warring neigbour, are imprisoned or banished. Spies go out to watch the populace, and young men are drafted against their will.The treasury is depleted to finance mercenaries .What do you call this man? Well, in his mind , he is probably a PATRIOT.He is protecting his nation for the greater good, as he sees it.
Now, take this moral relativism one more step. What if the general saw the weak young king as a handicap, but did not wish to wait for an enemy to attack? What if the general hired foreign assassins to stage an attack and blame it on the kingdom next door? His motivations could well be the same...
Frankly, when dealing with powerful characters, any moral dilemmas you can throw in their path are a win-win situation. It forces the players and the GM to examine the roleplaying motivations of the group, and can restrain to mighty .I applaud your thoughtful posts on the subject, one and all.
<returns to the shadows to work on his Wuxia campaign>