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Jkeown
Dec 6th, '06, 04:36 AM
Vast Underground
Megadungeons in Fantasy HERO
by Jeffery Keown

"Deep Aura don't fit on no treasure map, son... it goes on for the rest of your life."
--Overheard at Delver's, Chalkcliff Merchant Quarter

In Caleon, we have a few dungeons that rival cities in their vast scope. For miles their tunnels and passageways stretch, vast open spaces acheived by precious few tunnels only a meter or two wide. Their names send chills down the spines of the most seasoned delver; Deep Aura, Twilight Caverns, Besmirk, Ancient Regio, Yathlaan and probably a dozen others. The older your world, the more of these you are likely to have.

There are resources Down There. The nations of the world know this and have, from time to time, sent bands of talented individuals into these nightmare realms only to find they are beyond the ability of small parties. Entire legions have gone into these places, only to have scattered, maddened survivors limp home with a pittance of loot.

Why do the guilds and governments raise troops to throw at these Megadungeons? The reasons are as numberless as the powerful people who commission these doomed delves. Guildmasters, Kings, Merchant Princes and military men are all fond of sending hundreds to their deaths to secure a large diamond, enchanted scepter or a scrap of parchment that might lead to yet another sunken, accursed city.

Even worse is the notion of Gamemastering one in your own campaign. In a white hot burst of inspiration, I will herein try to capture the logistical nightmare of a Megadungeon. Such heat often leaves in its wake deep scars and certainly dire burns. Corrections, clarifications and after-market assistance are, as always, quite welcome.

Justification
Why do this? Why go to the headache of designing a Megadungeon if you're only going there once? Simple... that one trip will take months to game through! This will keep parties busy for weeks on end, provide ample loot, throw political intrigue, stealth, magic and all-out brawls into every episode you run for a good long time.

Some Terms
Faction - One "side" or force of creatures struggling for control of a megadungeon.

Hall - An area of relatively easy access, somewhat cutoff from it's surroundings. An example, using the idea of a vast underground city would be a residential area. One or two ways in, but each area inside is very open and accessed quickly.

Loot - Anything of value; magic swords, treasure, slaves, art objects, armor and weapons.

Natives - The lifeforms (or automata) present in the megadungeon when the struggle begins.

Trap - A mechanical deterrent. Often of a one-shot nature. Sophisicated ancient cultures might have created auto-reloading magical traps, however, but those might be called wonders.

Wonder - Non-mechanincal traps assets and features, usually recharged by ambient magic, Magic Healing/Buffing pools, Teleport chambers, Illusory rooms and objects. Room of Regeneration anyone? These will always be coveted by one or another faction.

Design Considerations

Location
Where is the megadungeon situated? How was it constructed? Is it square miles of twisting natural caverns and water-carved tunnels? Or is it some ancient Dwarven city, built by stubby hands over thousands of years? While the concept begs for a location removed from polite society, the image of a teeming labrynth below the campaign city's streets is appealing.

Entrances
How do you get all those troops down there? Perhaps a vast bridge over a waterfall leads to a great set of doors that have recently been opened. Or the entrance is more mundane, a simple rune-carved hole leads to glory and doom. Each entrance is likely to be controlled by a faction, or is the focus for an active contest for control. If there is only one entrance, it can be the scene of constant fighting

Factions Present
How many factions are struggling for this bit of real estate? Even if you do not include guilds, cults, more litigimate religious organizations or governments, there's still the current tenants versus the Player Characters. That's two right there!

Faction Territories
Depending on the layout, number of entrances and so on, factions may have secured certain areas for themselves. This, as in the case of Entrances, is one of determining preparedness.
Factions will want to secure areas that are easy to defend, or contain the loot they wish to claim. It helps their cause immeasurably if these features are found in the same Hall. Most of the time, anything worth taking home will be very hard to get to, so this might not seem so unreasonable.

I like to keep things simple, and break things down by security level (see Encounters, below). At a glance, the SL of a hall determines a great many things.

Faction Size
How many in each faction? This ranges from around a thousand low-point troops and support personel to six people roughly equivalent to the Player Characters in point cost.

In fact, start with those six. One of them is the leader, his point cost is 110% to 150% that of the Player Characters. He's got five buddies almost as dangerous as him. They have points roughly equal to the Players. Or, more fitting, they are just as capable, but perhaps built with more "Economy of Design" that allows you to concentrate on their combat-oriented abilities, rather than producing a detailed character sheet for each one. They are teh group with the most complicated motivations. Everyone beneath them in power is probably just here to do their job and hopefully get out alive.

Below those folks are Scouts, Elite Troops, Guards, Loremasters and bookkeepers, cooks, and skilled and unskilled laborers. As the points go down, the population increases. Not that you'd have hundreds of 25-point cooks, but you might, it depends on how much a given faction likes its food.

That brings us to how many of each type a given faction brings along. One designed to get in and out fast won't bring a cook, but if they plan to colonize the place, expect to see everyone you might normally find in a city environment.

Size of faction is also determined by how long the faction has been involved in the conflict. After a few weeks, one would expect reserve forces, smiths and a supply train.

Encounters
Encounters are based on the Hall in question. If it is newly entered by a rival faction, there may be "natives" to deal with in addition to the rivals.

Random Encounters usually take the form of a chart, keyed to each hall. The chart will consist of encounters with every faction who claims the area, plus any remaining traps, wonders or native life.

Programmed Encounters should be more than just bumping into the enemy faction around a corner (though it might be just that). They should be scenes that PCs interrupt, view from a safe distance or hear from afar. An example would be a research team in the process of opening a vault. The Player Characters hear the Spells of Opening, listen for a while to the conversation of the rival team and rush into replace them at swordpoint. The treasure in that encounter is relatively light, consisting of the rival's gear and tools, and a puzzle to work out (the vault).

Some GMs prefer to never use Random encounters, instead coming up with programmed ones on the fly, or in a burst of activity, write an entire Hall's encounters before the game, which allows a good deal of realism that off-the-cuff encounters can lack. Programmed encounters can also be a drawback, what with no scene ever going off as planned due to player action, which is highly unpredictable.

Security Level
Security Level tells you what sort of encounters, loot and native life you might have to deal with. Think of security level as a palette of colors you will paint the area with.

Unexplored - Newly discovered by one or more factions, the area is ripe for picking! Native life will be at its peak, treasures will be undisturbed (unless the natives are intelligent folks like Orcs or Drakine or what-have-you). In that case, the area is most likely Secured by the native faction. Any rivals will be scouts. Eliminate these, and you set into motion a whole slew of encounters with natives who heard the fighting, reserve forces investigating the scout's absence and finally, the high-end party who shows up to really clean house.

Claimed - One or more Factions claims this area. Any fighting is sporadic, no units will have been committed to the area as yet. Only scouts and maybe a guard force will be present. Even then, they will only be encountered near their faction's entrance to the zone. Native life is present and possibly aware of the actions being taken to destroy them.

Contested - Regular clashes between rival factions is the order of things in a Contested Area. Expect to see all native life driven out or killed by the fighting, probably a quarter of the loot is missing, but then, a similar percentage of traps and wonders will have been set off and not re-loaded.

Hotly Contested - Constant Dungeon Wars action! Night and day, troops are being sent into prevent the loss of the Hall to a rival faction. Any loot discovered is either being used in the fight, or awaiting other Faction members to haul it off.

Secured - One faction has won out over the other(s). The area is relatively secure, troops and support are able to actually sleep in some state of comfort and peave of mind. Research teams are scouring the place for un-tripped traps, loot and resources Encounters in such an area include well-fed and well-rested troops who know the terrain like the back of their hands. Any loot uncovered in this area has been moved to the Faction's base camp (either outside, or in another secured Hall), or is awaiting shipment. Conveniently, Player Characters who win through this kind of area have their loot boxed, labelled and ready to steal.

Abandoned - This area has been well and truly picked clean, perhaps it contained nothing of value, or such resources were not discovered. Encounters in an abandoned hall almost certainly include critters driven from their homes in other halls. This motivates them to extra voilence against the first thing they encounter.

Creating Halls and Areas

Name it. Even if the Player Characters never hear the name, the inhabitants certainly call it something, and the rival faction's troops have names for the areas for quick reference. While you can call the Hall just before the Big Open Space Area A, its much more fun and flavorful to overhear an enemy sergeant refer to troops moving into Vile Demense north of The Canyon. Names should be based on the type of native life encountered there, as well as archectural features such as wells ("Well of Life"), narrow passages ("Noosfal's Squeeze"), high-sided open areas ("Ambush Alley") or just really cool design ("Awesome Arches"). Sometimes a bit of statuary or a fresco can give rise to a name. Alternately, what the Faction's commanders call Area 521 North, the troops refer to as Lemmy's Deathtrap in honor of a fallen comrade.

Define it Pick features that will define the Hall to the players. Was this area an industrial sector, filled with rusting armories, cold forges and memories of ringing hammers and long-silent work-chants? Or was it a magical college, filled with traps that summon demons, crumbling libraries and hidden tomes of knowledge. The better you define an area, the more the unusual will stand out when encountered. A perfectly preserved book among piles of rotting tomes will be a signal to all but the most daft of parties.

Populate it. Each Hall will have creatures, traps, wonders and loot. If the above example of an armory is used, consider having armored undead, fire elementals and secret caches of enchanted metal waiting to be discovered. The magical library example might be populated by the spirits of dead wizards, lore-elementals and new powerful magic spells to fight and be fought over.

Game it! Once the population is fixed in your mind, ideas for "side quests" and scenarios might fill your head. This is good. Using the two examples, suppose the armory contains the ghost of a long-dead smith, and she cannot rest until she knows the fate of her love, a wizard of no small talent, now a dread lich who controls the library. Perhaps he can be calmed by the sight of her spirit, or she can laid to final peace by knowing her love's condition. Sounds like you need to get these two crazy kids together, but between those two halls lay several secured zones, the bastion of an undead hunter and his powerful entourage.

Cinematic Effects
Lava - Extremely silly to have molten rock running like a babbling brook through your megadungeon, but it makes for neat lighting, hazardous travel and provides a hook or theme to the monsters encountered there.

Water - Not quite as dangerous as magma perhaps, but certainly good for forcing swimming, air supply issues and providing secret passages that aren't immediately obvious. Sure there's a pool in the room the PCs are sleeping in, but that's just good drinking water. When the evil guys show up, dripping wet, to kill them they'll know they should have been a few points more observant.

Heights The ruddy light provided by all that magma can give hints as to the height the PCs are above the floor, narrow bridges spanning deep cracks provide a certain dramatic flair and fighting on precarious ledges a thousand feet from the unseen cave floor can make any fight more interesting.

Vermin - Albino cave creatures, swarms of rats or beetles, bats by the thousands..not to mention the dreaded fairy swarms found in some particularly awful megadungeons.

Controls
The Big Boss
In Deep Aura, the whole place is ruled over by a being called the Deific. He doesn't mind the player characters coming in, he doesn't mind them killing a few dozen Ur-Grubs. He does take them to task for shutting off the Fire Fountain and stealing the Eye of Chaos. In the case of Deep Aura, there is a limit to the active points he'll allow to be cast in his domain, as well as a list of specific actions he won't tolerate.

Consider having a powerful creature, demon or undead automaton as a Hidden Faction. Hints of this character abound, but he does not reveal himself and his forces until some specific action is taken.

Multi-layered battles
Similar to seiging a castle, a multi-layered encounter can be great fun. If the party is pleased with uncovering the Tomb of Laarn, perhaps they'd enjoy fighting for it not with folks rushing down a narrow hallway at them, but a large force of archers in balconies four stories up? They will be pleased with both finding the tomb and the victory over the rival force. Give them 5 archers and six guys rappelling down the walls, plus a wizard throwing fireballs from one high and they'll never forget the battle. They also won't forget to look up on occasion.

I'm sure there's more to write on this subject, look for it soon. Specific topics include barricades, salvaging, example factions, some spells and wonders, and of course a few worked examples of Halls to fight over.

LordSkatterhawk
Dec 6th, '06, 07:10 AM
This article on megadungeons is phenomenal. I don't know where to start with my comments so I'll share some reader's reaction.

I read this article as part game theory (dealing with dungeons as more than PCs v. Monsters), verisimilitude for a specific setting (the armies and factions realize how dangerous these places are, megadungeons are taken for granted as structures), and design philosophy (especially the planned encounters and security levels). Sometimes authors try to accomplish too much in essays of this nature, but I think this piece is balanced. I can use it as a player or as a DM. Even if I am not fond of dungeon play, some of this piece could be of use designing battlefields. Thanks for an entertaining introduction to some useful terminology, theory, and gaming design.

I like the idea of naming areas and having multi-layered combat. I have designed several dungeons in my days as a GM, but it was nice to see these ideas succinctly expressed. I look forward to further articles in what I hope is a series.

Lucius
Dec 6th, '06, 07:16 AM
One of my unfulfilled ambitions is to craft a 60 level dungeon....

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary says "Maybe when you retire, Lucius..."

Jkeown
Dec 6th, '06, 08:34 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

The article was born of a bit of a disappointment. The players had been hearing of "Deep Aura" in my game for a while (2 years, at least) and had wanted to delve it at last. I drew a map. It covered one page in my notebook, roughly 1/4 hex=2m scale. I was really annoyed at myself. Hardly the epic experience I had imagined. Then I thought maybe it was a vast underground city in and of itself.

Vast Underground? Nice title. All sorts of things have occured to me since then...Big things. I'll type 'em up when I get home from work.

Gawain
Dec 6th, '06, 10:19 AM
Great article! Very cool.:thumbup:

Curufea
Dec 6th, '06, 01:28 PM
Didn't some game company come out with a module called "world's biggest dungeon". Actually - I think it was the folk that produced the Farscape D20 game (yes, I stooped to buying a D20 book because I'm a fan of Farscape)

Jkeown
Dec 6th, '06, 02:39 PM
Didn't some game company come out with a module called "world's biggest dungeon". Actually - I think it was the folk that produced the Farscape D20 game (yes, I stooped to buying a D20 book because I'm a fan of Farscape)

I am familiar with the product, but at $100, I'm not likely to ever see the inside. The idea did influence me, however. From what I've heard, the different areas aren't tied together much at all story-wise, the Vast Underground concept suggests a unifying concept and conflict.

I'll try to post some examples.

Killer Shrike
Dec 6th, '06, 08:52 PM
The Worlds Largest Dungeon is alright. Its really more of a curiosity than a real setting though.

Ptolus has more staying power, and combines the idea of a vast, multi-origin, interconnected "underground" right beneath a major city mentioned in the opening post. Ive been occassionally converting material from it to the HERO System over the last couple of months. PtolusHERO (http://www.killershrike.com/PtolusHERO/PtolusHERO.shtml)

Older material worth checking out are the Greyhawk Ruins which are near to the City of Greyhawk and offer the opportunity to travel back and forth for those that like a mix of delving and city play. Ruins of Greyhawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Greyhawk). I once finally got an experienced and powerful group of PCs to attempt the Ruins, but they chickened out a couple of days into it and bailed on it, never to return no matter how much I dangled the carrot.

Also, theres always Waterdeep, though I was never particularly a fan.

Im sure there are other "megadungeons" in print that could serve as an inspiration / source of material.

Captain Obvious
Dec 7th, '06, 04:41 AM
If you can get a hold of the Epic of Aerth for the Dangerous Journeys game, there's a lot of "vast underground" type material there. Ecosystems and civilizations. No maps though. They're pretty easy to come by anyway.

kiahoga
Dec 7th, '06, 06:05 AM
actually if you wanted to get something of suitable size try ruins of undermountain from 2nd ed ad&d a mostrous dungeon if they're ever was one . but your right 100$ for one module is very steep .

Super Squirrel
Dec 7th, '06, 06:24 AM
I have always wanted to play the Ruins of Greyhawk. I own a copy but never had the chance to run it or play it.

Savinien
Dec 7th, '06, 06:49 AM
Isn't there a Myth Drannor in Forgotten Realms?

I always wanted to build that multilevel Uber-Dungeon that they hinted at in the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide. It was just a sideview/cutaway map of all the various levels, but it seemed interesting.

Or, be a dwarf in the retaking of Moria?

Lots of potential in such an idea and I'm impressed by the way the jkeown went about putting it together.

Super Squirrel
Dec 7th, '06, 06:52 AM
Incidently, I was thinking a couple of days ago about creating large dungeons. I started writing up some information on how to design a dungeon. It is nothing compared to this which is amazing but part of it does assist the situation.

Questions to answer before you begin the dungeon design:
Who created it?
Knowing who created the dungeon helps shape it. Was it a paranoid wizard? Was it a clan of goblins? The design of the dungeon will reflect the personality of its creator.

Why was it created?
The biggest flaw with dungeons is there is no reason for them. They are just there. Ask yourself why it was created. Was it crafted to hide a secret lab at its deepest level? Was it a complex path to the surface world? Was it designed to provide a place for the residents to hide from the outside world?

How was it created?
This helps best with doing room descriptions and designing the physical map. Were the rooms natural? Were they crafted by magic? Were they dug by dwarves? Knowing how the rooms were made helps provide texture to the dungeon.

When were they created?
Is the dungeon new? Is it ancient? This also helps with designing the map and the room descriptions. Older dungeons might have marks of previous battles on the walls. Sections of the dungeon may have collapsed long ago. Bodies of victims will be nothing more that skeletons. Doors may be rotting and falling apart. Newer dungeons may have unfinished sections with piles of fresh rock and mining equipment. Rooms may be nearly perfect with brand new doors and unrusted hinges.

What is the history of the dungeon?
Have there been any major battles in the dungeon before? Have any adventures gone down into the dungeon in the past? Were there any fires or magical explosions in the dungeon? Did the lands ever flood after the dungeon was first created?



That's all I had really.

Super Squirrel
Dec 7th, '06, 06:54 AM
I own Undermount as well. It is on my list of AD&D books to sell.

Killer Shrike
Dec 7th, '06, 07:06 AM
I have always wanted to play the Ruins of Greyhawk. I own a copy but never had the chance to run it or play it.

Its got some interesting bits in it as I recall (its been many many years), but it wasnt very well organized or summarized so you really had to put the time in to read ahead of the group and have an idea of what was on each level. Not easy to run on the fly. There were also so areas that were miskeyed in the text or the map which could throw a wrench if you didnt catch it ahead of time and figure out the right mapping.

Ruins of Undermountain had similar layout issues IIRC, but I never actually ran or played in that one, just browsed it and reused the maps for something else.

Newer megadungeons do a better job at giving a GM a heads up and containing more relelvant info in the text rather than requiring the GM to own and bring with them a pile of (undisclosed) reference books.

Super Squirrel
Dec 7th, '06, 07:11 AM
I recall that about the Ruins of Greyhawk.

I also love the part about a pillar that has the Earth Stone in it. You can't find it by any method other than going up to the Pillar and casting a Wish spell and specifically asking if there the Earth Stone was in the pillar IIRC.

Lethosos
Dec 7th, '06, 09:01 AM
The Underdark book for Forgotten Realms can give you some ideas about life underground. Similarily, "Creatures of the Endless Dark", an OGL d20 book can give equally illuminating critters down there. I particularly like the slaver race they have in there...

Markdoc
Dec 7th, '06, 12:56 PM
My gameworld has several gigantic "dungeons" in it. The world's backstory is that long ago the lords of Darkness almost - but not quite - conquered the world. One civilisation (Thanataya) survived by digging in - literally constructing cities and fortresses underground and surviving by the use of magical gates and cornucopias to produce food. Some were destroyed during the dark ages, or abandoned at their end and sealed off when the Dark age ended. Still others stayed at least partly in use for centuries until they were destroyed in the great war between Thanataya and Atalantë....

That was of course, long, long ago (TM) but some of the ruins are still down there. Imagine. The ruins of cities built to hold millions of people, created and sustained by some of the mightiest wizards ever known.... Oh sure, they've been plundered, but you never know what you might find there... apart from the surviving minions of the lords of Darkness.

The current game (though the players don't know it yet) is headed towards another megadungeon, where I plan to play out most of the story - a formerly wealthy city that was destroyed by a earthquake that caused a volcanic eruption. Half the city was buried under steaming mud and the other half subsided enough to let the sea come roaring in. What's left is a melancholy bay of ruins, thickly populated where the land was high enough to form small islands that allowed rebuilding, and small city built on a maze of ruins and tunnels on the landward side, that draws adventurers to dig and loot - while the descendants of the former inhabitants try to stop them so they can dig and loot themselves.

And last of all, the cornball favourite - a giant purpose-built dungeon created as a trap/dwelling/treasure-collector by an ancient, powerful and totally mad lich. It's designed to draw in powerful adventurers (who almost always have neato magical items, natch). When they die in the dungeon, the lich's servants eventually find the bodies as they shuffle about resetting traps and placing or feeding new monsters and loot them, hauling the loot back to the lich's fabulous horde. Some of it - the 'less interesting" items - are placed in various sites so as to lure new adventurers in - that way, rumour has gotten out that the Lichlair is a truly dangerous place but if you avoid going too deep and you are fast and canny, you can come out rich...

cheers, Mark

Super Squirrel
Dec 7th, '06, 02:38 PM
I'm working on a dungeon that was built by a mad alchemist. He died many years ago when an adventuring party went in, killed everything they found* and killed the mad alchemist. The took the loot and left.

The module, however, focuses on creatures that survived and others that moved in to this very nifty, abandoned dungeon.

* Except for one thing they decided NOT to kill.

Killer Shrike
Dec 7th, '06, 02:54 PM
And last of all, the cornball favourite - a giant purpose-built dungeon created as a trap/dwelling/treasure-collector by an ancient, powerful and totally mad lich. It's designed to draw in powerful adventurers (who almost always have neato magical items, natch). When they die in the dungeon, the lich's servants eventually find the bodies as they shuffle about resetting traps and placing or feeding new monsters and loot them, hauling the loot back to the lich's fabulous horde. Some of it - the 'less interesting" items - are placed in various sites so as to lure new adventurers in - that way, rumour has gotten out that the Lichlair is a truly dangerous place but if you avoid going too deep and you are fast and canny, you can come out rich...

cheers, Mark

His name wouldnt happen to be Lyzandred would it?

AmadanNaBriona
Dec 7th, '06, 07:57 PM
I have to confess to a love of megadungeons myself, and have several of them in my setting. I can't really bring myself to go totally old school D&D/T&T style however, so I try and have a plot plausible reason for them to be there.

for example...
In my setting there is a blasted barren desert wasteland region so blighted due to the fallout of a ancient seige from an ancient war. At the center of the wasteland is an obsidian mountain that was formed when the wards about the city went nova under the onslaught of demonic magic and melted through the earths mantle.
What is mostly unknown is that the wards allowed the city to survive the eruption intact. The residents, trapped, weren't so lucky, and now this haunted city lurks entombed under black glass waiting to be someday rediscovered.

Essentially this gave me a chance to take a Walled City map and then go to town "post-apocalypse"ilizing it with a rough timeline of what happened to the survivors and how they became the undead they are today. It can tie into my plotlines a dozen or so ways, any of which could lead the players there eventually. But at its heart..its a dungeoncrawl.
I even call the remaining "inhabitants" grues :eg:

keithcurtis
Dec 7th, '06, 10:12 PM
One of my unfulfilled ambitions is to craft a 60 level dungeon....

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary says "Maybe when you retire, Lucius..."

I'd hate to see you wait that long. Here is a map. Just add monsters and treasure.

Keith "The Palindromedary's friend" Curtis

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/keithcurtis/Misc/60LevelDungeon.gif

Vestnik
Dec 8th, '06, 12:32 AM
And last of all, the cornball favourite - a giant purpose-built dungeon created as a trap/dwelling/treasure-collector by an ancient, powerful and totally mad lich. It's designed to draw in powerful adventurers (who almost always have neato magical items, natch). When they die in the dungeon, the lich's servants eventually find the bodies as they shuffle about resetting traps and placing or feeding new monsters and loot them, hauling the loot back to the lich's fabulous horde. Some of it - the 'less interesting" items - are placed in various sites so as to lure new adventurers in - that way, rumour has gotten out that the Lichlair is a truly dangerous place but if you avoid going too deep and you are fast and canny, you can come out rich...

cheers, Mark

I could never figure out why some king or whatever didn't just assemble an army and ransack the Tomb of Horrors. It wouldn't be that hard if you don't mind sacrificing a bunch of peasants. ;)

Markdoc
Dec 8th, '06, 03:43 AM
His name wouldnt happen to be Lyzandred would it?

Don't recognise the reference - but then it I never thought it was a terribly *original* idea :D As I said, it's kind of a homage to the days when I ran my game using D and D, since it was the very first dungeon I ever ran, back in 1980, when I was still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of why there would *be* dungeons.

After a while it got the reputation among my players of being simply too dangerous. They all set off for overland adventures and it's basically lain unused ever since...

cheers, Mark

OddHat
Dec 8th, '06, 04:39 AM
I vaguely recall a 3rd party module that included the Builder Worm, a gigantic worm that ate dirt and rock, leaving behind 10'x10' corridors and excreting precious metals, gems, and edible luminescent slime. Nomadic tribes followed the worms, collecting the metals and living off of the slime, and often leaving traps behind to deal with rival tribes and invading surfacers. I always wanted to use that in a campaign. :)

I've also thought about using the Wielzca salt mines (http://www.kopalnia.pl/home.php?action=&id_language=&) and other salt cathedrals (http://www.catedraldesal.gov.co/), suitably exaggerated.

assault
Dec 8th, '06, 05:37 AM
http://turkey.rdricketts.com/uncity.html
http://www.allenvarney.com/av_turkey.html
http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/turkey/turkey.html

OddHat
Dec 8th, '06, 05:51 AM
http://turkey.rdricketts.com/uncity.html
http://www.allenvarney.com/av_turkey.html
http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/turkey/turkey.html

Very cool. :)

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 07:13 AM
I'd hate to see you wait that long. Here is a map. Just add monsters and treasure.

Keith "The Palindromedary's friend" Curtis

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/keithcurtis/Misc/60LevelDungeon.gif

Nice! And its ideal for simulating the Biggest Damn Dungeon Ever. Just start on page 1 of the Monster Manual, and work thru it alphabetically until you run out of monsters, then grab another monster manual and repeat until all the PCs are dead or all the players have given up in disgust.

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 07:22 AM
I could never figure out why some king or whatever didn't just assemble an army and ransack the Tomb of Horrors. It wouldn't be that hard if you don't mind sacrificing a bunch of peasants. ;)

I recall hearing a tale that Lord Robilar beat the Tomb of Horrors in just such a fasion -- except he used an army of Goblins or Orcs for his cannonfodder.

Super Squirrel
Dec 8th, '06, 08:11 AM
Nice! And its ideal for simulating the Biggest Damn Dungeon Ever. Just start on page 1 of the Monster Manual, and work thru it alphabetically until you run out of monsters, then grab another monster manual and repeat until all the PCs are dead or all the players have given up in disgust.
Don't forget room descriptions.

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 08:16 AM
Don't recognise the reference - but then it I never thought it was a terribly *original* idea :D As I said, it's kind of a homage to the days when I ran my game using D and D, since it was the very first dungeon I ever ran, back in 1980, when I was still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of why there would *be* dungeons.

After a while it got the reputation among my players of being simply too dangerous. They all set off for overland adventures and it's basically lain unused ever since...

cheers, Mark

Lyzandred "the Mad" is a character from the Greyhawk setting. Basically as memory serves he started off as a good wizard and started collecting magic items that he deemed too dangerous to be in the hands of mere mortals, and stored them in a demi-plane he had discovered where he also lived.

I forget all the twists and turns, but the basic idea is living in the demi-plane eventually drove him mad, he eventually died and becamed a (IIRC Lawful Neutral) lich, he eventually hit on the idea of luring adventurers to his plane to test them for their worthiness.

If they couldnt survive the "tests" set for them they died and he took their magic items and seeded the dungeon as further bait for new adventurers. If they did survive they were rewarded with some item(s) and released.

There were some advantages to the CONCEPT of the Crypt of Lyzandred that made it easy to incorporate -- it was a demiplane and not tied to a specific geographical location, so it could be introduced pretty much anywhere whenever a GM wanted to use it. Also, since the intention wasnt really to "beat" the dungeon and slay Lyzandred, but rather just to survive it more along the lines of a gauntlet, a GM could tailor the threat level and rewards appropriate to pretty much any PC group, regardless of their level or the contents of the actual printed adventure.

I found the underlying concept to be very useful, and used it on a couple of occasions (and would use it again were I to run a Greyhawk campaign). However I chucked the map and instead used dungeon tiles (at the time taken from Warhammer Quest and other sources, but now-a-days I would get some of the new general purpose Dungeon tiles being published as seperate products).

The gimmick was for each tile I conjectured a puzzle, test, trap, challenge, or what have you appropriate to the graphics on that tile. Further, the dungeon was not a linear physical structure; each room would have one or more randomized exit portals through which you couldnt see, and when you went thru one you went to a random other room. The target of the portal also reset every 5 minutes or so, thus if a "scout" went thru they a) had no direct way to communicate back and b) if the rest of the group tarried too long they'd end up going to some other room. Teleport spells worked after a fashion, but if one attempted to teleport out of a room they just ended up in another random room. Planeshift would work to leave the demiplane and thus the dungeon in theory, but the caster would need to somehow overcome a powerful blocking spell laid down by Lyzandred.

The PCs could skip from room to room as they liked, but never knew what they would be getting in to. Many of the rooms were passive, and in fact in some cases it wasnt even obvious what the challenge of the room was, so PC's could skip around semi-safely, but other rooms presented triggered traps or direct and immediate threats.

In some cases the PC's also got split up which also added a level of dramatic tension as the group tried to reconstitute.

Once the group solved a challenge, the room was removed from the randomizer. Eventually if the PC's passed all of the tests, they would be provided with a door that lead out; as each passed thru the portal the were delivered to a seperate room from one another where on a beir rested some magic item or in rarer cases more esoteric reward particularly suitable for them in direct relation to how much they contributed to passing the various tests.

PC's that were particularly key to passing the tests (if any, and often only one) were granted an audience with Lyzandred, who asked them some seemingly disjointed questions (he is mad, you know), but which had an overriding purpose. If he liked the cut of the PC's jib so to speak (they roleplayed the audience well), he would grant them some words of insane wisdom TM (which translated into a INT or EGO raise), and grant them a token that if used would allow them to find another entrance to the Crypt to be tested again in future should they wish to test their mettle once more; conjoined with the warning that the next time it will be much harder of course.

The only realy challenge was that some PC's didnt survive it of course and its a "closed" setting making it potentially awkward to introduce new PC's. One group was powerful enough and had a cleric that could resurrect, so it wasnt catastrophic, but the other group wasnt as fortunate. However, this was easily overcome by having the surviving members stumble into a room where they encountered a surviving member(s) of another adventuring group whom they soon agreed to combine forces with, thus introducing new PC's.


Anyway, Im leaving a lot out, but it was a very successful endeavor on the two occasions I employed it. The players were extremely engaged, and it formed a real milestone in the careers of their characters and the campaign as it progressed. One player in particular who had a very positive audience w/ Lyzandred made it a defining element of his character's roleplaying going forward.

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 08:21 AM
Don't forget room descriptions.

It's, ah, a room. Square. Four walls, 25 feet to a side, 25 foot ceilings, stairwell up on one side, down on the other.

"Lets get it on!".

{initiative dice cascade to the table}


"Natural 20 babeee"

"Nice!"

"Man, you SUCK! That die has got to be loaded..."

etc....

Vestnik
Dec 8th, '06, 09:56 AM
I recall hearing a tale that Lord Robilar beat the Tomb of Horrors in just such a fasion -- except he used an army of Goblins or Orcs for his cannonfodder.

Better yet, don't even bother going inside it -- get some sappers, and just excavate the thing from the top down. Dig the thing up.

teh bunneh
Dec 8th, '06, 10:00 AM
One team I knew of drove a large herd of goats through it. The ungulants set off about 70% of the traps. The only thing the party needed to do was find the secret doors. :thumbup:

Bill.
(Plus: Yummy goatmeat for dinner every night!) :winkgrin:

keithcurtis
Dec 8th, '06, 11:09 AM
If they couldnt survive the "tests" set for them they died and he took their magic items and seeded the dungeon as further bait for new adventurers. If they did survive they were rewarded with some item(s) and released.

So, he turned it into Las Vegas.

Keith "Vegas has a catch-and-release program..." Curtis

Curufea
Dec 8th, '06, 12:47 PM
Incidently, I was thinking a couple of days ago about creating large dungeons. I started writing up some information on how to design a dungeon. It is nothing compared to this which is amazing but part of it does assist the situation.

Questions to answer before you begin the dungeon design:
Who created it?
Knowing who created the dungeon helps shape it. Was it a paranoid wizard? Was it a clan of goblins? The design of the dungeon will reflect the personality of its creator.

Why was it created?
The biggest flaw with dungeons is there is no reason for them. They are just there. Ask yourself why it was created. Was it crafted to hide a secret lab at its deepest level? Was it a complex path to the surface world? Was it designed to provide a place for the residents to hide from the outside world?

How was it created?
This helps best with doing room descriptions and designing the physical map. Were the rooms natural? Were they crafted by magic? Were they dug by dwarves? Knowing how the rooms were made helps provide texture to the dungeon.

When were they created?
Is the dungeon new? Is it ancient? This also helps with designing the map and the room descriptions. Older dungeons might have marks of previous battles on the walls. Sections of the dungeon may have collapsed long ago. Bodies of victims will be nothing more that skeletons. Doors may be rotting and falling apart. Newer dungeons may have unfinished sections with piles of fresh rock and mining equipment. Rooms may be nearly perfect with brand new doors and unrusted hinges.

What is the history of the dungeon?
Have there been any major battles in the dungeon before? Have any adventures gone down into the dungeon in the past? Were there any fires or magical explosions in the dungeon? Did the lands ever flood after the dungeon was first created?



That's all I had really.


Most of these questions are also posed in the Central Casting book about dungeon design - quite a useful read for this kind of thing.

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 01:03 PM
So, he turned it into Las Vegas.

Keith "Vegas has a catch-and-release program..." Curtis

Minus all the hot women of loose morals and buffets, I suppose.

Super Squirrel
Dec 8th, '06, 01:05 PM
One of the original D&D or AD&D books had a random dungeon generator. One of the groups I had gamed with for a while liked to run random dungeons when no one wanted to GM. They talk about one stretch of dungeon that kept generating pit traps with Hydras in them. They also once generated a 10' by 10' room with a Ancient Red Dragon inside.

keithcurtis
Dec 8th, '06, 01:37 PM
Minus all the hot women of loose morals and buffets, I suppose.
Everyone goes through that phase of gaming, too.

Keith "In some groups, the buffet remains a constant" Curtis

Curufea
Dec 8th, '06, 01:54 PM
One of the original D&D or AD&D books had a random dungeon generator. One of the groups I had gamed with for a while liked to run random dungeons when no one wanted to GM. They talk about one stretch of dungeon that kept generating pit traps with Hydras in them. They also once generated a 10' by 10' room with a Ancient Red Dragon inside.

There are MANY random generators on the internet - quite a few are worth looking at.

But I like Marcdoc's idea of a cataclysm forcing folk to live underground - it's the kind of justification I could agree with.

Super Squirrel
Dec 8th, '06, 02:21 PM
Funny you should mention that, I was working on an idea for something very similar to that.

Killer Shrike
Dec 8th, '06, 07:36 PM
Everyone goes through that phase of gaming, too.

Keith "In some groups, the buffet remains a constant" Curtis

im still in that phase, but have yet to find a good forum for it :D

Susano
Dec 10th, '06, 07:04 AM
The book Tour of the Universe presents the idea of a dungeon as large as an entire world. The place is called "Tombworld" and it's just that -- a planet used to bury various space-faring races for millennia. In a fantasy setting, one could convert it to an island or some such, but the end result is a location covered in tombs, crypts, dungeons, graves, and what not. If built around a mountain (or island), one could see the mountain honeycombed with passages, with additional structures built on top. Over time (especially if the entire location has been abandoned), parts may have collapsed in on itself, the restless dead may have arisen once their rest was disturbed, necromancers may have used it to create various undead, traps and spells may have killed the unwary and/or created new guardians, animals may have moved into partially open tombs and crypts, and tomb robbers may have broken into parts.

Going off certain Egyptian burial practices, you have a ready reason for physical traps, magical traps, monsters, piles of treasure, and complex underground tunnel systems.

Enjoy!

Blue Jogger
Dec 10th, '06, 01:31 PM
Don't forget room descriptions.

You find yourself in a (sound of tape measure retracting) 17' by 21' room. The air smells of damp mold with the slightly smell of cinnamon mixed in. You hear the sound of water off in the distance (sound of a water dripping). The east wall is covered with strange markings of a forgotten language. Light streams in from the west wall from an outknown source, providing just enough light to annoy both those that can see normally in the dark and surface-dwellers.

The floor slants downwards towards the south where 8 orcs appear to be bored out of their minds, obviously, they've heard this description many timers before...

OddHat
Dec 10th, '06, 02:21 PM
Don't forget Philip Jose Farmer's "The Dungeon" anthologies, another entire world designed as a D&D style dungeon in order to serve as both a prison and a center for odd experiments by an extra-dimensional race. Interesting setting, and with plenty of space for an almost traditional party going from room to room killing, looting, and looking for a way out.

Curufea
Dec 10th, '06, 03:17 PM
If it were in a Pulp setting - it would have similarities with Dark City.

Enforcer84
Dec 10th, '06, 04:49 PM
Make it the "Ultimate Dungeon"; use Keith's map and simply fill each room with four cages and prisoners, most dead, none having anything even remotely resembleing treasure. There are no monsters either.
Just jails.

Lucius
Dec 10th, '06, 11:14 PM
I'd hate to see you wait that long. Here is a map. Just add monsters and treasure.

Keith "The Palindromedary's friend" Curtis

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/keithcurtis/Misc/60LevelDungeon.gif

Gee thanks! I’ll go through and distribute 59 Gold Pieces and 59 Giant Rats!

Lucius Alexander

And 1 Palindromedary

Steve
Dec 11th, '06, 10:22 AM
And 1 Palindromedary

The most feared beast in all the world. :eek:

katal3
Dec 11th, '06, 02:22 PM
I'd like to craft a dungeon in the theme of those found in the game Dungeon Keeper.
The whole premis being that you played as a sinister being bound within a stone known as a Keeper, and you terrorized the land by constructing massive dungeons and marsheling a dark host of monsters into your employ. Then the heros and the Lord of hte Land would come to clense you from their lands, die a horible death within the deathtrap you'd crafted. After that your free pillage your metaphorical 'little black heart' out.

Sir Ofeelya
Dec 17th, '06, 01:33 PM
I like the idea from Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne), whereby there are ruins of ancient cities that have been built upon for millenia after millenia as different states and civilizations ruise and fall. A good place to place a city is generally a good place to put another one. To top it off, some societies on Tekumel practice a rite of renewal, where every so often (half a millenia or so), cities are razed to ground level and reconstructed. Temples and such like keep access to their old crypts, which over the millenia get deeper and deeper. Gives a workable reason as to why the 'dungeon' exists in the first place.

Curufea
Dec 17th, '06, 02:20 PM
That reminds me of the latest Diskworld book I read - Thud.


As Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on silt and also suffers from fires and so forth,
it also has ruins on top of ruins on which the city rests. Most of the ruins are filled with silt - but recently Dwarves were constructing an undercity right underneath, tunnelling from room to room and clearing out the silt. They used a number of artifacts to help them keep the tunnels moisture free.

Lethosos
Dec 17th, '06, 04:48 PM
My particular favorite "underground" region would be from a player-created world called Leirune. Apparently the city of Lanacele sits on top of the ruins of Caldera, home of the Magi who created this anti-deity defense that still stands through the current (7th) Age.

Apparently the Seal gets broken down and recreated at the end of each Age, and the only ones who know how to do this are some egimatic intelligent artifacts. (My suspichion is that they were the people who broke down the previous Seal upon their natural deaths. But I'm not gonna ask the continuity crator about this.)

Blue Jogger
Dec 17th, '06, 08:23 PM
I'd like to craft a dungeon in the theme of those found in the game Dungeon Keeper.

IMP
5 STR -5
8 DEX -6
5 CON -10
5 BODY -10
7 INT -3
5 EGO -10
5 PRE -5
10 COM 0
1 PD 0
1 ED 0
2 SPD 2
2 REC 0
10 END 0
9 STUN 0
Characteristics -44

10 Short +2 DCV
2 PS: Miner 11-
7 Dance of Ownership: 1D6 Transform 1 Hex Area into Keeper's Lair, Incantantions throughout (-1/2), Must be connected to either the Keeper or another hex with owned by the Keeper. (-1/2). (Assumes that it takes 30 BODY to transform the hex)
29 Enchant the Walls: Entangle, 8 DEF, 8 BODY, Incantantions throughout (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Minute) -1 1/4
5 Dig 1" through 3 DEF, OAF Pick (-1)
9 Tough Skin 3 PD/3 ED Armor
Powers: 62

-15 Physical Limitation: (short 1m tall)

Total: 3 Points

Quote: "Heh heh! OOOFF! Yippee!"

Description: These are the lowest creatures in the Keeper's Dungeon. But without them, no one would build the dungeon, claim territories, or enchant the walls to keep invaders out.

katal3
Dec 18th, '06, 08:45 AM
Yoink! and Repped!
Edit: Wait... you forgot their Life Support, they neither Eat nor Sleep
Imps:
23712

Blue Jogger
Dec 18th, '06, 07:39 PM
In the game, they have a very reduced need for sleep (although they do occasionally nap and need to be slapped awake), however, they don't really need to eat (except as part of healing).

2 LS: Reduced need to sleep, 8 Hours every month
3 LS: No need to eat.

They are incredibly active creatures and rarely seem to tire. If you really want tireless grunts, give them the following:

2 Tireless: 0 END on 5 STR
6 Tireless: 0 END on 6" Run

And if you really consider how heavy a huge bag of gold/diamonds must be...

7 +10 STR w/0 END, Lim: Only to make the contents of the bag 1/4th as much (-1/2), OAF - Bag of Holding (-1).

Blue Jogger
Dec 18th, '06, 08:31 PM
Made a mistake on Enchant the Walls, so here's the revised.

IMP
5 STR -5
8 DEX -6
5 CON -10
5 BODY -10
7 INT -3
5 EGO -10
5 PRE -5
10 COM 0
1 PD 0
1 ED 0
2 SPD 2
2 REC 0
10 END 0
9 STUN 0
Characteristics -44

10 Short +2 DCV
2 PS: Miner 11-
7 Dance of Ownership: 1D6 Transform 1 Hex Area into Keeper's Lair, Incantantions throughout (-1/2), Must be connected to either the Keeper or another hex with owned by the Keeper. (-1/2). (Assumes that it takes 30 BODY to transform the hex)
22 Enchant the Walls: 12 DEF, Hardened, 6d6 BODY Entangle, Incantantions throughout (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Minute) -1 1/4, No Range (-1/2), Can only strengthen pre-existing walls (-1)
5 Dig 1" through 3 DEF, OAF Pick (-1)
9 Tough Skin 3 PD/3 ED Armor
2 LS: Reduced need to sleep, 8 Hours every month
3 LS: No need to eat.
2 Tireless: 0 END on 5 STR
6 Tireless: 0 END on 6" Run
7 +10 STR w/0 END, Lim: Only to make the contents of the bag weigh 1/4th as much (-1/2), OAF - Bag of Holding (-1).
Powers: 75

-15 Physical Limitation: (short 1m tall)

Total: 16 Points

Quote: "Heh heh! OOOFF! Yippee!"

Description: These are the lowest creatures in the Keeper's Dungeon. But without them, no one would build the dungeon, claim territories, or enchant the walls to keep invaders out.

AnotherSkip
Jan 8th, '07, 07:54 AM
Has anyone seen the megadisasters show on Megavolcanos? apparently there are five on the planet earth and they are huge caverns slowly filling with lava...... that will eventually explode.

I have a map for a "planar dungeon" imagine a rubber band ball with many different colored rubber bands all of which repersent different regions (ie Red for Romans, Green for undersea, Yellow for Chinese, Blue for Norse etc...) with the "empty spaces" being rooms and doors in odd locations and a floorwarp gravity.
My planar dungeon map ball is bigger than my fist but smaller than my head.