Magic Martial Arts

[Tywyll]

Has anyone created MA styles around magic casting? I know it was mentioned in FH, and I was thinking about the idea... though obviously they would be Techniques or something, that allowed easier use of Mana for different effects.

Has anyone done anything like that? If so, do you mind sharing?

[PhilFleischmann]

Well, not quite. But I did design a "Zombie Martial Art" - a certain specialized fighting form that obviously must be taught/imbued somehow into zombies to make them more effective in combat. It's based on two principles:

1) That zombies feel no pain.
2) To be as scary and creepy as possible to the one who has to fight them.

Thus, it has lots of "sacrifice" maneuvers, and lots of grabs and takedowns.

And I suppose anybody could learn the style, especially if they're inured to pain somehow. Perhaps a magic spell grants someone "Takes No STUN" temporarily, or something like that.

But it isn't really magical, per se. Probably not what you were looking for.

[Manic Typist]

Hm...

I don't suppose you could just call it SFX?

[Tywyll]

Hm...

I don't suppose you could just call it SFX?

No, not since I am looking at the mechanical applications of the MA system to a magic system, as mentioned in FH. I want to know if anyone's done it and if so what effect did it have (good or bad).

[LordGhee]

Ran a short WuXia campain, orther that everyone had some type of Ma and power effects it felt like a fan hero campain.

Lord Ghee

[Captain Obvious]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35352&highlight=stances

Similar to what you're asking for, anyway.

[Lucius]

Ran a short WuXia campain, orther that everyone had some type of Ma and power effects it felt like a fan hero campain.

Lord Ghee

Fan hero?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that some highly skilled martial artists are said to be able to kill with one of those paper fans by inflicting a lethal paper cut right across the throat....

[Tywyll]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35352&highlight=stances

Similar to what you're asking for, anyway.

Yes, that is definately similar to what I mean.

What I specifically mean is something like this:

Aldeni Flame Triumphant Style

The Aldeni are a people that are closely tied to strife. As their Queen of Fire leads, so do they follow. As she embodies the fire that burns and grants life, so to do they emulate this principle. Through her teachings they have developed methods of manipulating mana that go beyond simply casting spells.

Maneuver Phase Cost OCV DCV RNG Effect
Fire Guides the Way ½ 4 0 0 +2 Standard
Mirage Defense ½ 3 -1 +2 - Standard
Unyielding Inferno ½ 4 -1 -1 - Strike +4DC (2 w/RKA)
Fire Burns Quickly ½ 4 +1 0 - Strike +2DC (1w/RKA)

Fire Guides the Way-The caster summons additional power from the elemental plane of fire to boost the range of one of their spells.

Mirage Defense-Almost all Aldeni magic is fire related. Even spells that aren’t can benefit from this technique. As the caster draws on the energy to cast the spell, power briefly pours out around them, obscuring them from view and making it harder to hit them (though it does slightly obscure their own vision).

Unyielding Inferno-Marries the destructive nature of fire with any spell to cause it to burn more strongly and inflict more damage. The spell is destablized and the caster left sluggish by the overwhelming power they are drawing in, but only for a moment.

Fire Burns Quickly-This is a quick, accurate burst of power that is the mainstay of Aldeni Warcasters. The spell is focused and more brutal.

[Killer Shrike]

Its just a SFX.

[Tywyll]

To Martial Arts? That's not right, certainly not in the case as mentioned in FH. For example, how would you buy Ranged MA maneuvers if you did not have a power construct to add the effects of MA to? By that I mean that most characters do not naturally have a ranged attack (humans at best has Str, useable at range, IAF-thrown object of opp). I don't think that's what was meant in the FH section.

Or did you mean something else?

[AmadanNaBriona]

To Martial Arts? That's not right, certainly not in the case as mentioned in FH. For example, how would you buy Ranged MA maneuvers if you did not have a power construct to add the effects of MA to? By that I mean that most characters do not naturally have a ranged attack (humans at best has Str, useable at range, IAF-thrown object of opp). I don't think that's what was meant in the FH section.

Or did you mean something else?

Well, thats all just a matter of the default Weapon Element for the martial art, and what additional WE's are allowed within the art. As it stands, there are no "weapon familiarity groups" established anywhere for spells, as that'd be very campaign specfic. In a Superheroic game I could see "magic" as its own WE, whereas in most Heroic level games like normal FH you'd probably build in groupings based on your own game background.

I like the MA example you gave, and was thinking about whipping up a similar example. It fits in a number of examples of the Fantasy Genre. Right off the top of my head the Sword of Truth series springs to mind... Zed and Nathan both strike me as having Magic based Martial Arts. To tie in with what I was sayingabove... your example Art looks like it'd have as a default Weapon Element "Fire Magic". Access to a compatible Fire Magic Attack would be a prerequisite for art just like a bow is required for Zen Archery. Whether the required attack form is free or costs points is irrelevant to the construction of the Martial Art itself.

[Tywyll]

Well, thats all just a matter of the default Weapon Element for the martial art, and what additional WE's are allowed within the art. As it stands, there are no "weapon familiarity groups" established anywhere for spells, as that'd be very campaign specfic. In a Superheroic game I could see "magic" as its own WE, whereas in most Heroic level games like normal FH you'd probably build in groupings based on your own game background.

I like the MA example you gave, and was thinking about whipping up a similar example. It fits in a number of examples of the Fantasy Genre. Right off the top of my head the Sword of Truth series springs to mind... Zed and Nathan both strike me as having Magic based Martial Arts. To tie in with what I was sayingabove... your example Art looks like it'd have as a default Weapon Element "Fire Magic". Access to a compatible Fire Magic Attack would be a prerequisite for art just like a bow is required for Zen Archery. Whether the required attack form is free or costs points is irrelevant to the construction of the Martial Art itself.

Thanks! I've thought it was a cool idea ever since I noticed it in FH. Never tried it though, and yeah, that was my thought to... namely that spells are no different (mechanically) from a bow, so why not allow them to benefit from a MA style?

I'll probably stat up a Tryshallan (Elven) style and post it as well. Different maneuvers for a different feel.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Thanks! I've thought it was a cool idea ever since I noticed it in FH. Never tried it though, and yeah, that was my thought to... namely that spells are no different (mechanically) from a bow, so why not allow them to benefit from a MA style?

I'll probably stat up a Tryshallan (Elven) style and post it as well. Different maneuvers for a different feel.

Go for it.
I could even see a style, probably what in Martial Arts terms would be considered an "inner" style, that was based on acheiving a zanshin like "combat trance" that could work as both a weapon based and magical MA style (expanded WE groups, in other words).

[Vondy]

The 4th Edition The Ultimate Mentalist contained an application of Martial Arts to Psionics that could be easily ported over (with minor edits) for use with a magic system.

[Kabluey]

I've not read the section in FH (I have the book, but haven't read most of it), so I don't know what it talks about in there.

But I did come up with my own set of magical martial arts. I based it on the rules out of Ultimate Martial Artist, but I added some of my own elements. The main purpose is to allow casters to cast spells in different ways or with different modifiers. For instance, like many GM's, I require a skill roll for magic. So I added a Careful Casting maneuver that gives a bonus to the skill roll and also includes a modifier to the spell failure roll (I use a table for spell failure effect). I also have Defensive Casting, which increases the caster's DCV and gives a smaller bonus to the skill roll. Then I have other maneuvers like Overwhelming Spell, which is basically like Offensive Shot but has spell skill level associated modifiers as well. Obviously, these are just variations on the standard martial arts, but I did add some other stuff. The Dispell Spell, for example, maneuver allows one to abort to Dispell, and Quick Spell allows one to cast a spell in a single phase (all spells default to Extra Segment) at the cost of skill roll penalties.

I can't really say how well this will work, though. The one wizard character has three maneuvers, but he generally only uses two of them, switching between Defensive Casting and Careful Casting depending on whether he is in combat or not. I'm a little surprised he hasn't picked up some of the other maneuvers, but I suspect that's because I started them out with so few points (100 pts) and so they're all spending their XP on stuff they feel they need to complete a basic character. The wizard, for example, has actually been using his XP to bump up his CON because he doesn't like getting CON stunned. So for him, at least, getting extra maneuvers seems pretty low on the priority list. I've been planning to throw a wizard at them who uses the maneuvers to see if that inspires him any, but so far I've not pushed it. My hope is that over a longer campaign, as the characters build up more points, the maneuvers will become more used.

[mattingly]

Something I've been wanting to do is to use magical martial arts, but to apply something like Weapon Elements, so you might see a spellcaster that has "Use Art with Alchemy, Divination, and Necromancy."

[Manic Typist]

I'm sorry... I'm in the middle of exams so it's hard to think...

But can't it just be SFX?

Buy a 4d6 Spinkick with Ranged... say you were doing it with magic. Really.

[Kristopher]

This sounds a little like Avatar, as discussed in other threads recently.

[Lucius]

Crossposted from an old thread called "Making up Martial Manuevers."

The last few manuevers really get into the idea of magickal or quasi-magickal attacks bought mechanically as martial arts.

Going to post in two parts - philosophy then "crunchy bits."

The secret to Elven swordplay is to rely on a trained feel for the balance of the weapon and a sure grip, rather than brute strength. Two manuevers have the "Zero STR" element. Required before buying any manuevers is the "Sidhe Swordmaster" talent: limited STR only to meet the STR min requirements of a weapon, and only while using Sidhe Swordmaster manuevers. This combination meets several objectives:

1 Prevents Elves from buying up STR just to meet a weapon's STR min.

2 Prevents Elves from buying up STR to add damage.

3 Prevents Elves from adding STR to the basic manuevers, which violates the spirit of the art.

4 Means a swordmaster intent on causing more damage must either put skill levels into added damage or into OCV and try for a called shot - much more in the spirit of the art.

5 Reflects the art's emphasis on "appropriate force" i.e. being trained to exert only the minimum STR necessary to hold a weapon firmly and direct it where you want it to go. Efficiency of force is what allows a swordmaster to use weapons that are otherwise beyond their STR. (Contrary to popular impression, Elven weapons are often heavier than Human equivalents becuase they are made of bronze or other alloys rather than iron or steel.)

Theoretically, a 0 STR Pixie could learn these techniques and use a STR 10 sword (why not, if a rat can learn ninjutsu....) - if she can find one in her size. Physical limitation "Pixie size" still prevents her from using normal weapons.

Lucius Alexander

Where did the palindromedary go?
Sidhe Swordmaster Talent:

+10 STR (10) 0 END (+1/2) (15)
No figured (-1/2) Does no damage (-1/2) Only to meet a weapon's STR min or to retain a weapon against Grab and Disarm (-1) Only while using Sidhe martial arts (-1)
Real cost: 4

+15 STR costs 5


Manuevers

Dancing Sword
Elements: 0 STR (-2) +2 OCV (+2) +3 DCV (+4) Cost= 4

The basic manuever - required for all Swordmasters

Charge/Legswipe
Elements: 0 STR (-2) Full move (+3) Throw (+1) Add Velocity/3 (+3) Cost = 5

Either charging forward and knocking the opponent down, or sidestepping while swinging at their lower body.

Avert
Elements: Block +2 OCV (+2) +2 DCV (+2) Cost= 4

Your basic parry

Flying Weapon
Elements: Disarm (+1) -1 OCV (-1) +1 DCV (+1) +10 STR to disarm (+2) Cost = 4

So called because it makes the opponent's weapon fly out of their hand.

Embrace the Foe
Elements: Bind (+1) Grab 1 limb (+2) Cost = 3

Stepping close to seize one arm and lock the opponent's weapon into a harmless position.

Render Harmless
Elements: Must follow Embrace (-2) Grab Weapon (+3) Throw (+1) +10 STR to grab weapon (+2) +1 DCV (+1) Cost = 5

A rather advanced move, obviously only learned after learning Embrace the Foe. It deprives the opponent of a weapon and forces them to the ground. Note, before grabbing the weapon, the Swordmaster must either release the opponent's limb, or drop his own sword. Unless he has Extra Limbs.



The above are the basic art; obviously, Familiarity with Swords is required. Also suggested are:

Magick
Fast Draw
Sleight of Hand
Defense Manuever
Weaponsmith
Combat Sense
Danger Sense
Lightning Reflexes

Edit: Writing in the more advanced manuevers.

Ultimate Martial Artist has several examples of martial arts in which certain skills are required to practice the art at all. In this case, certain skills are required to learn the more advanced manuevers.

Elf Stroke
This set of 3 manuevers is quasimagickal in nature: one must have at least a 1 pt Familiarity with Magick to use them. They must also be learned in order, like Defense Manuever.

These are all based on the "disable" element. The first two are "by the book" if the book is the Ultimate Martial Artist; disabling limbs, or the torso, is covered, basically a zero point element that automatically targets the chosen location and does impairing/disabling damage, but does not use the location modifiers for damage. Disabling the head is obviously more dangerous: I attempt to balance it by making it a +2 element, and forcing the player to buy the first two manuevers before getting that one.

Elf Stroke I
Elements: +4d6 damage (remember, that's only 2 damage classes with a killing attack weapon) (+6) Disable Limb, -2 OCV (-2) +1 segment (-1) Cost : 3

Elf Stroke II
Elements: +4d6 damage (+6) Disable Torso (location 12) - 1 OCV (-1)
+1 segment (-1) Cost : 4

Elf Stroke III
Elements: +4d6 damage (+6) Disable Head (+2) -2 OCV (-2) +1 segment (-1)
Cost: 5

To learn this last move, the character must have at least 3 pts in Magick, and 1 pt each in Fast Draw and Sleight of Hand.

Flashing Sword
Elements: Flash 4d6 sight and hearing (+7) +1 Segment (-1) Take half damage (i.e. take 2d6 flash yourself) (-1) Cost = 5

By moving the blade in a swift, distracting and mesmerizing pattern, the swordmaster can capture an opponent, even mid-charge, in a brief trance in which they can see and hear nothing but the flashing, humming sword. This can be dangerous because the swordmaster is also temporarily captured in the same trance.



Lucius Alexander

Where did that palindromedary come from?
Lucius Alexander

[Tywyll]

I'm sorry... I'm in the middle of exams so it's hard to think...

But can't it just be SFX?

Buy a 4d6 Spinkick with Ranged... say you were doing it with magic. Really.

Because the system is designed to work with spells that exist, rather than creating something that 'looks like' spells.

The above example really doesn't help a wizard throw his fireball more efficiently, or make a more defended lighting strike.

That's what I'm going for.

[Tywyll]

This sounds a little like Avatar, as discussed in other threads recently.

Avatar?

[Manic Typist]

Oh, I'm sorry. You are not looking for martial arts via magic...

You are looking for martial magic.

I understand.

[Spence]

For me I would either make it a SFX or an inner energy like Chi, that augments the MA.

[AmadanNaBriona]

This is one of the ways to do D&D3 style "Metamagic feats" (of sorts) as well.
It would also work well for a magic style inspired by computer games like Diablo or Champion of Nolgroth that have interwoven spell/skill prerequisite structures.

[Tywyll]

Oh, I'm sorry. You are not looking for martial arts via magic...

You are looking for martial magic.

I understand.

Yup, that's it exactly. :thumbup:

[Tywyll]

This is one of the ways to do D&D3 style "Metamagic feats" (of sorts) as well.
It would also work well for a magic style inspired by computer games like Diablo or Champion of Nolgroth that have interwoven spell/skill prerequisite structures.

That's kind of what I'm going for (though it is actually one of those things that came about/occured to me after the fact... that it would make maneuvers kind of like Metamagic).

Basically I read the idea in FH, and started thinking it could be quite cool to create a system whereby wizards get a slight boost to their casting abilities through some sort of systematic training, ala MA. But I want it to modify the existing spell lists, sort of like treating spells as a Weapon Element.

[Markdoc]

Well, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping you from using artial arts - but on the other hand, it's probably not really going to as useful as it is for physical arts, since many of the elements are attacks in and of themselves. It would allow you to add damage to spells a la the various strikes, but even though it would allow you to "cast defensively" - that wouldn't affect the spell any.

However something you might like to consider instead is buying either an Aid or a naked advantage, which would let you alter the spell itself - you could attach OCV and/or DCV penalties to the power to simulate the style so for example:

Dragon's Gambit - 5d6 Aid (any magical effect, one at a time, +1/4, side effect, -3 DCV, -1/2, standard effect +0) which would add 15 active points to any spell at the cost of -3 DCV from the flamboyant gestures used in casting. 12 real points

Just make up a few such "adders" and you have a distinctive magical "martial art"

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Avatar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender

[Tywyll]

Dragon's Gambit - 5d6 Aid (any magical effect, one at a time, +1/4, side effect, -3 DCV, -1/2, standard effect +0) which would add 15 active points to any spell at the cost of -3 DCV from the flamboyant gestures used in casting. 12 real points

Just make up a few such "adders" and you have a distinctive magical "martial art"

cheers, Mark

That's certainly a possibility. There are a couple of things that keep me from going that direction though. Many spells have adders... while a +15 to a simple RKA would more than easily be workable, what if the attack were NND, One Hex Accurate, etc, etc? Since my players are new to the system, throwing too many things at them that change or modify what they are used to, especially as esoterically as Active Points can get, might be a bit much. MA maneuvers add easy steps, regardless of Advantages and so mostly does what I'm looking for while keeping the system simple.

I might throw something like what you are suggesting as an added 'maneuver' that could be learned seperate of the MA (like the Kung Fu tricks in Ultimate MA).

[Frenchman]

I like the idea of thinking of these as "Metamagic abilities" rather than martial arts maneuvers - they could incorporate sFX that appear to be minor spells, and elements such as Silent (spell doesn't require incantations, +2 pts).

Puissant Spell
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), -1 DCV (-1), -2 Magic Roll (-2), +4 DCs (+6) Cost: 4
Channelling the maximum power into their spell and casting aggressively, the mage is able to unleash devastating magic with this method.

Wizard's Guide
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), -2 DCV (-2), +4 vs Range (+2), +4 Magic Roll (+4), +2 DCs (+2) Extra Phase (-2) Cost: 5
By casting a cantrip which displays a visible how-to guide of the casting and proper use of that spell, the wizard finds the execution of the spell to be vastly simplified and more effective. However it does take somewhat longer and exposes the wizard to their enemies.

Voiceless Art
Elements: -1 DCV (-1), +2 Magic Roll (+2), Remove Incantations (+2) Cost: 3
Focusing on their inner voice, the mage doesn't require their external voice to cast spells. The mental focus on the procedures makes the spell more likely to succeed, but the lack of focus on their surroundings may lend an opening to a foe.

Tranquil Magic
Elements: +2 OCV (+2), -2 DCV (-2), +2 DCs (+2), Remove Gestures (+2) Cost: 4
Freezing in place, the spellcaster focuses all of their energy on the spell, eliminating the need for somatic procedures and adding extra oomph to the spell.

Snap Casting
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), +3 DCV (+4), -2 Magic Roll (-2) Cost: 3
Through practice the wizard is able to cast his spells with minimum attention to the procedures, moving defensively and occasionally catching his targets off guard.

[PhilFleischmann]

Puissant Spell
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), -1 DCV (-1), -2 Magic Roll (-2), +4 DCs (+6) Cost: 4

Wizard's Guide
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), -2 DCV (-2), +4 vs Range (+2), +4 Magic Roll (+4), +2 DCs (+2) Extra Phase (-2) Cost: 5

Voiceless Art
Elements: -1 DCV (-1), +2 Magic Roll (+2), Remove Incantations (+2) Cost: 3

Tranquil Magic
Elements: +2 OCV (+2), -2 DCV (-2), +2 DCs (+2), Remove Gestures (+2) Cost: 4

Snap Casting
Elements: +1 OCV (+1), +3 DCV (+4), -2 Magic Roll (-2) Cost: 3
Interesting, but these could be a problem, depending on the magic system being used (limitations required, AP limits, etc.). This appears to be based on a system where every spell has RSR, Gestures, and Incantations (a total of -1 in limitations). That means that a 60 AP spell costs 30 Real points. The Incantations limitation, for example, saves you 7.5 points. But the Voiceless Art "maneuver" above buys it off for only 2 points. And the same holds true for some of the other "maneuvers"

The other problem is the situational factor. For example, probably the main reason you'd want to remove the Gestures limitation is because you're grabbed, entangled, or otherwise unable to gesture. In these cases, your DCV is already significantly lowered, and the additional -2 DCV is probably not going to matter much. Likewise the Voiceless Art will be primarily used when you're trying to sneak up on the target. If the target is unaware of you, the -1 DCV isn't really a penalty.

I'm not saying such a system can't work, in fact it's quite an interesting idea, and I like it, but it needs to be looked at carefully. This "Magic MA" essentially allows buying off of limitations for very, very cheap, and often grants CV and DC bonuses as well.

[Frenchman]

True, it does work best with 'traditional' magic systems where most spells have gestures, incantations, and a skill roll. It does most certainly remove limitations from the spells for far less real points than it would cost to buy off the limitation from a single spell.
Of course, I've never played in a fantasy game where wizards had to pay the full real point cost for each of their spells - we have always used frameworks or cost dividers since 150 point characters can hardly afford to spend 15 points on a 2d6 KA spell - and won't if the fighter can get that as equipment.
By the same token, normal MA maneuvers add OCV and DCV for 1 point each, not the 5 points it would cost to buy a DCV level. Damage classes are similarly reduced in cost - so is it any more broken to semi-arbitrarily say that Silent is 2 points that it is to say that +v/3 for 2 points is?
I must agree that I didn't think out the situational implications of these particular 'maneuvers,' but then again I was thinking of the sFX of the maneuver when I assigned CVs to them, not when they'd be used. Personally, I feel that some additional cost should be given to these - whether it be extra END (Extra END cost equal to cost of maneuver?) or a side effect of some kind, I'm not sure. Perhaps a more volountary limitation, similar to that which martial artists (in our games, at least, MAs either don't get weapons or can't take extra DCs) take: These maneuvers are only available to specialist wizards for the type of magic they specialize in, or something else.
One way to make it cost more is by defining how weapon elements apply to spells. If you don't need any (Magic is a single element) then it doesn't offer any restrictions. If each type of magic (enchantment, necromancy, etc) is a different element, then a wizard can have all of them for, say, 10 points (depending on the magic system). If each spell or series of spells (for systems that have Fire, Fira, and Firaga) requires an element, then that imposes a credible limitation on the wizard - each spell costs 1 point more if they want to use it with their Art. Signifigant for a wizard with 20 or more spells.
As for the 'maneuvers' being very, very cheap - well so are normal martial maneuvers, and I don't see that as a reason to dissallow them. More to the point is that, just like a Martial Artist, a wizard with these would have no reason to ever cast a spell without using one - which may or may not be a bad thing.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'm not saying I would automatically throw out the idea because of the "cheap buyoff" factor, because obviously, as you've pointed out, regular Martial maneuvers often work the same way. But with martial arts, the maneuver can be seen as a modification to the standard Strike with STR (a punch or whatever), and generally does only one thing. OTOH with these magic maneuvers, it seems they can be applied to *any* spell. MAs work with normal, physical, HtH damage.

[Frenchman]

Usually Martial Arts do work with Physical damage, but it can be either normal or killing, HtH or Ranged. And if someone can learn Gun-Fu then there's no reason to say that a super-powered Blaster can't learn MA with their EB. Is a Metamagic Maneuver with a Life-Draining spell really that much different from Gun-Fu with Tranquilizers? Mechanically, I mean.
I agree that the versatility of them being applied to any spell a character may have is an important point, and thats my only sticking point in the mix as well.
Could either make the character buy a WE for every spell they have, which essentially just makes each spell cost 1 point more...a small but incremental cost, or maybe they can be divided into spell 'types' and tightly regulated maneuvers can be bought only by type of spell (either by school of magic or by the type of power used). Thus DC-increasing maneuvers could be limited to only, say, attack spells and adjustment spells, and EGO-boosting spells are limited to summoning but not available for mental powers.

[Tywyll]

Thanks for your take on the MA magic style. Very cool stuff (though I agree that a few might need a bit of tweeking). I am curious as to how you determined the cost for skill modifiers (is that in UMA somewhere, or just something that 'felt right'?).

Thanks again.

[PhilFleischmann]

Usually Martial Arts do work with Physical damage, but it can be either normal or killing, HtH or Ranged.
Well, it's Killing only if you buy a Killing maneuver or it has a Killing damage weapon as a weapon element. Only the ranged maneuvers are ranged, and the HtH maneuvers are only HtH.

And if someone can learn Gun-Fu then there's no reason to say that a super-powered Blaster can't learn MA with their EB. Is a Metamagic Maneuver with a Life-Draining spell really that much different from Gun-Fu with Tranquilizers? Mechanically, I mean.
I'm not so sure that a gun-fu maneuver would apply the same to a regular gun as to a tranq-dart gun. A tranq dart has very different aerodynamics than a bullet.

Could either make the character buy a WE for every spell they have,
I could probably live with that.

or maybe they can be divided into spell 'types' and tightly regulated maneuvers can be bought only by type of spell (either by school of magic or by the type of power used).
That might be a little too broad, depending on how you define "type". IIRC, a martial are with the weapon element "Swords" can be used with any sword-type weapon: scimitar, long sword, short sword, dagger, rapier, etc., but not with spears, axes, clubs, etc. The spell-type element should have the same level of flexibility. Off hand, I'd say the spell elements (spelements?) should be separated by not only the specific power used (e.g., EB vs RKA), but also by general special effect (e.g., fire vs. lightning). So the Fire Blast element would apply to the regular EB fire spell, as well as any variants of it (more or fewer dice, advantages, limitations, etc.). Or something like that.:think:

[Frenchman]

Thanks for your take on the MA magic style. Very cool stuff (though I agree that a few might need a bit of tweeking). I am curious as to how you determined the cost for skill modifiers (is that in UMA somewhere, or just something that 'felt right'?).

Thanks again.

The ones I made up just 'felt right.' The others are from the UMA.

Well, it's Killing only if you buy a Killing maneuver or it has a Killing damage weapon as a weapon element. Only the ranged maneuvers are ranged, and the HtH maneuvers are only HtH.

Here I was just responding to you when you said, "MAs work with normal, physical, HtH damage," in an above post. I just felt like pointing out that since MA allready does work with 5-6 types of damage allready (Normal Physical, Normal Energy, Killing Physical, Killing Energy, NND, and Flash damage) I see no reason it can't work with any other power construct.

I'm not so sure that a gun-fu maneuver would apply the same to a regular gun as to a tranq-dart gun. A tranq dart has very different aerodynamics than a bullet.

I don't argue that a dart is different in the real world than a bullet - but in the game they can be constructed in very similar or identical ways. Also, the way Gun-Fu has worked in my games has been centered around being an expert at using the gun, not the bullets. Otherwise I may have called it bullet-fu;)

I could probably live with that.

I'm glad you can.

That might be a little too broad, depending on how you define "type". IIRC, a martial are with the weapon element "Swords" can be used with any sword-type weapon: scimitar, long sword, short sword, dagger, rapier, etc., but not with spears, axes, clubs, etc. The spell-type element should have the same level of flexibility. Off hand, I'd say the spell elements (spelements?) should be separated by not only the specific power used (e.g., EB vs RKA), but also by general special effect (e.g., fire vs. lightning). So the Fire Blast element would apply to the regular EB fire spell, as well as any variants of it (more or fewer dice, advantages, limitations, etc.). Or something like that.:think:

I would agree with you here - If I were to GM a game and this came up, I doubt I'd allow 'Magic' as an element, or even schools of magic. I'd most likely go with something similar to what you just described, though I think I'd allow the 'Fire Blast' element to include fire spells built with RKA as well.

[katal3]

Interesting Thread, I've toyed around with some ideas like this in the past, so i'd definitly like to see more examples of Arcane MAs

[Diamond Spear]

Has anyone tried stating out the martial arts from Jade Empire?

[PhilFleischmann]

You could even have maneuvers that buy off other types of limitations, or even add advantages, like if a spell has Reduced By Range, you might have an intense, focusing maneuver that lets it be not Reduced by Range. Or a spell that's already Ranged, might have a maneuver to give it Extended Range.