Under the Eagle Standard--Roman HERO

[Mastermind]

I have been inspired by something that I read recently and am formulating ideas for a HERO game set late 2nd century AD (c 160) in Roman Britain (Legion IX Hispana out of Eburacum or XX Valeria at Chester...Maybe even II Augusta/Ariudutix even)

Characters would be a member of the Legion or support personnel, so not neccessarily heavy infantry. Possible character types/professions/duties are underlined below.

Here's the passage. It is paraphrased from Josephus, The Jewish War

"The vanguard was formed of light-armed auxiliaries and bowmen. These were to engage and repel skirmishers and to probe likely ambush cover. The head of the column proper was a body of heavily armed Roman troops, both mounted and on foot. Next were surveyors, drawn from the centuries of legions, carrying instruments for marking out a camp. Behind them came the pioneers (antecursores), probabaly carrying dolabrae for tree-felling and other tools....A strong calvary force followed with the commander's baggage and that of his staff, behind with rode the commander himself, surrounded by his finest infantry and cavalry and a body of pikemen (hastati). The came the legionary cavalry...employed as scouts and messengers. These horsemen were followed by the artillery...Behind these came the generals, cohort commanders, and tribunes with their infantry guard marching before the sacred aquila, which was surrounded by other legion standards and followed by the trumpeters with their instruments. The main column of infantry stretched out behind, marching six abreast in close dressing, with centurions watching the discipline of the formation. Next came the baggage-train with the tents and general contruction implements, supervised by the camp 'servants'. The rear of the column comprised of mercenaries, along with a strong rearguard of legionary infantry and cavalry"

Granted it is maybe 100 years earlier, and there were advances in the equipment for the armies of Hadrian, Antoninus, and Marcus Aurelius but the composition would still have been similar to Trajan and the Flavians but with even more auxillaries in the cavalry, vanguard and among the mercenaries.

It would be great to share some ideas about this type of game. Lorica segmentata? Chain mail instead? Weapons? Origin of auxillaries? Prefabs ideas (i've seen a martial art set describing 'legionary training')? or comments in general.

[Eosin]

There are mounds of wonderful ideas and adventures in antiquity. I'd imagine that some of the best stuff (IMO) would not be about traveling with the Legion into parts here-to unknown but the cut throat wrangling between Senators, Emperors, Clergy, and Diplomats of alien powers (Byzantine, Gaul, Rus, etc...). A game set in Rome itself would be almighty kind of fun.

As always, I'd be tempted to interject a little magic ala Harlans work or Hinterwelts RPG stuff. The people, in general belived in magic, so why not give it a little credance. Obviously not to the level of D&D but some nifty curses, blessings, and the like would go along way towards capturing the mentality.

Playing scouts and other non-decision makers could get repetitive unless the GM was pretty saavy. There are only so many times that scouting for an ambush can be entertaining. Playing a Tribune or something similar removes them from most of the action. Maybe there could be a troupe style play where the players make "political" characters and a cohort of combatants/scouts who do the dirty work. Something in the spirit of Birthright would work well here.

Anyway, I'll be interested to see where you take this.

[Manic Typist]

Or...

You start the players off in a hellacious battle. The conflict is truly staggering, and after over two days of nonstop fighting.... they are the only survivors of their legion.

Winter is setting in, and they need to lick their wounds. They are taken in by a local tribe and become friends.

As loyal Romans, they set out training these people to resist the follow up force that you know is coming.... if the pass falls, the entire region could be in danger.

All sorts of drama. Earning the trust of the people (rescues, hunts, etc), proving yourself (vision quests, etc), ferreting out traitors (intrigue)...

I think it would be fun.

[Kristopher]

Or...

You start the players off in a hellacious battle. The conflict is truly staggering, and after over two days of nonstop fighting.... they are the only survivors of their legion.

Winter is setting in, and they need to lick their wounds. They are taken in by a local tribe and become friends.

As loyal Romans, they set out training these people to resist the follow up force that you know is coming.... if the pass falls, the entire region could be in danger.

All sorts of drama. Earning the trust of the people (rescues, hunts, etc), proving yourself (vision quests, etc), ferreting out traitors (intrigue)...

I think it would be fun.

Sounds like good stuff.

[Eosin]

Or...

You start the players off in a hellacious battle. The conflict is truly staggering, and after over two days of nonstop fighting.... they are the only survivors of their legion.

I ran a game just like this in Fantasy Hero. It was a blast. The thing is that it has little to do with Rome (in my game it had nothing to with with Rome). Although, the Cusred dagger story still get told in the group from time to time.

[Mastermind]

Here's an interesting tidbit...

"AD 175 Iazyges make peace with Rome and supply 8,000 warrior hostages, of which 5,500 are sent to Britannia"

--The Sarmatians: 600 BC-AD 450, Brzezinski,et al 2002

[assault]

Another good period for this kind of game is the very late empire, when things were going pear-shaped. Or, after the Roman withdrawal from Britain, when the Britons were left to fend for themselves against the Picts, Scots and Saxons. The word "Arthur" comes to mind...

[Savinien]

Here's an interesting tidbit...

"AD 175 Iazyges make peace with Rome and supply 8,000 warrior hostages, of which 5,500 are sent to Britannia"

--The Sarmatians: 600 BC-AD 450, Brzezinski,et al 2002


Another good period for this kind of game is the very late empire, when things were going pear-shaped. Or, after the Roman withdrawal from Britain, when the Britons were left to fend for themselves against the Picts, Scots and Saxons. The word "Arthur" comes to mind...


Synchronicity is cool. From wikipedia:

But in 175 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/175), Avidus Cassius (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Avidus_Cassius&action=edit) led a revolt in the East, interrupting the campaign. At this point, the leading king among the Iazyges, Zanticus, made peace with Marcus Aurelius, yielding up, it is said, 100,000 Roman captives. The Iazyges were also forced to provide the Romans with 8,000 cavalry to serve in the Roman army as auxiliaries. Some 5,500 of these were shipped off to Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain), where, it is theorized, they played a part in the development of the Arthurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthurian) legend.

I wonder what sort of part in the Arthurian Legend they fulfilled?

[assault]

I wonder what sort of part in the Arthurian Legend they fulfilled?

They appear to have been armoured cavalry.

http://www.roman-britain.org/military/alaisar.htm
http://www.roman-britain.org/places/bremetenacum.htm

[Mastermind]

The book I quoted above discusses that a little bit. From what I glanced at, the heavy calvary aspect of the Sarmatians (mostly their lance and somewhat their mounted bow use) contributed greatly to the Roman army of the day, especially the contarii. I think that their use of the draco standard helps with that Arthurian conncection.

There are at least 2 cohorts supsected to be made of Sarmatians (Iazgyes or Roxolani) around Trajan's reign.

[Savinien]

Might be a fun adventure by some Roman Legionairres:

http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/turkey/turkey.html

[Mastermind]

Cappadocia!

We saw this on a episode of Digging for the Truth or something like that on the History Channel...

Maybe it was Lost Places. It showed a schematic of the whole underground complex.

Neat!

[Eosin]

The Alans (Sarmatians?) also influenced Arthurian tales in dozens of not so obvious ways. They have a mythical sword held by a female water spirit etc... How much influence they exerted is a bit of a debate but some experts give them credit for the lions share of Arthurian Legend. I'd have to go dig out the Mamoth Book of Arthur to look at specifics.. sorry.

[Mastermind]

The Alans are according to some sources the descendants of the Samartians or another groups very similar to them.

Alans may have invented stirrups also.

[Vestnik]

I think the Roman Empire was too blood-soaked and generally too ugly of a place for me to feel comfortable playing in it, if it were done historically accurately. I wouldn't be gaga over playing an historically accurate Aztec either.

[Manic Typist]

Perhaps.

I am not bugged so much by the Romans. Amazing discipline, society, engineering...

Pretty much everyone was about as violent at the time, the Romans were just better at it (for the most part, at least until their fall).

Now, an era of history that I consider to just be horrifying?

The French Revolution.

Turn anyone's stomach. ;)

[assault]

Pretty much everyone was about as violent at the time, the Romans were just better at it (for the most part, at least until their fall).

Pretty much.

If stuff like the gladiatorial games and so on bug you, go for the later period after they had ended. Of course, that's when the empire was declining...


Now, an era of history that I consider to just to be horrifying?

The French Revolution.

No way, man!

Death to the Scarlet Pimpernel!

[Curufea]

The Alans (Sarmatians?) also influenced Arthurian tales in dozens of not so obvious ways. They have a mythical sword held by a female water spirit etc... How much influence they exerted is a bit of a debate but some experts give them credit for the lions share of Arthurian Legend. I'd have to go dig out the Mamoth Book of Arthur to look at specifics.. sorry.

But on the the other hand, they were also responsible for putting Keira Knightley in a battle-bikini...
:)

[assault]

They seek him here, they seek him there...

Seriously though, not good times.

As Dickens wrote: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times". ;)

In fact, it was pretty much the beginning of the modern world, or at least the end of the Middle Ages. A violent and nasty birth, of course, but the Ancien Regime always dies hard.

(Incidentally: the Royalists killed far more people than the revolutionaries did. And more people were killed by the conservative factions after the Terror than were killed during the Terror...)

[Curufea]

Whoops - sorry, just deleted that reply because I thought two posts by me on different topics would be confusing.

[Vestnik]

Perhaps.

I am not bugged so much by the Romans. Amazing discipline, society, engineering...

Pretty much everyone was about as violent at the time, the Romans were just better at it (for the most part, at least until their fall).

Now, an era of history that I consider to just be horrifying?

The French Revolution.

Turn anyone's stomach. ;)

Come to think of it, pretty much any historical setting before around 1800 or so, if rendered with historical accuracy, is stomach-turning by modern Western standards. RPG adaptations of them seldom seem to show the really dark stuff. (How many settings drawing on medieval Europe have, say, witch hunts or holy wars to kill the infidel -- human infidels I mean, not orcs?)

However, to be honest, it is likely that future generations will look at us with similar revulsion as mores change.

[assault]

Whoops - sorry, just deleted that reply because I thought two posts by me on different topics would be confusing.

If people weren't confused before, they will be now! :)

[assault]

Come to think of it, pretty much any historical setting before around 1800 or so, if rendered with historical accuracy, is stomach-turning by modern Western standards.

Before 1800? Long after that, unfortunately.

Just last night I was thinking about setting a Champions game in the 50s or 60s. The amount of stuff I was going to have to sweep under the carpet was a little horrifying...

Don't think too hard about the Wild West, either.

[Lucius]

Synchronicity is cool. From wikipedia:

But in 175 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/175), Avidus Cassius (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Avidus_Cassius&action=edit) led a revolt in the East, interrupting the campaign. At this point, the leading king among the Iazyges, Zanticus, made peace with Marcus Aurelius, yielding up, it is said, 100,000 Roman captives. The Iazyges were also forced to provide the Romans with 8,000 cavalry to serve in the Roman army as auxiliaries. Some 5,500 of these were shipped off to Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain), where, it is theorized, they played a part in the development of the Arthurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthurian) legend.

I wonder what sort of part in the Arthurian Legend they fulfilled?


Aside from the specifics already mentioned, it is said they worshipped a War God in the form of a sword struck upright in the altar.

I'm sure that image seems both evocative and familiar.

Lucius Alexander

Hunted, Palindromedary, <=14

[Vestnik]

Before 1800? Long after that, unfortunately.

Just last night I was thinking about setting a Champions game in the 50s or 60s. The amount of stuff I was going to have to sweep under the carpet was a little horrifying...

Don't think too hard about the Wild West, either.

Yeah, the players can play brave Indian slayers. :)

[Bismark]

If you are bothered about some semblance of 'accuracy' (insofar as it is possible when dealing with events that far back in history), be careful which sources you use: the Middle and Late Roman Empire's big bad enemy next door - the Sassanian Empire of Persia, has had a lot of research done on it in the last 25 years or so - which has led to opinions of its army organisation diverging greatly from the picture in the 1980s. [Just compare the old Osprey Rome's Enemies 3 book with the recent Sassanian Elite Cavalry book from the same publisher and you will see what I mean]. The aforementioned Sarmatians have also had a bit of a 'revamp' (it appears they used less armour and fancier {e.g. horned} saddles than previously thought, but they still used big honking lances [kontos]).

Last time I checked (earlier this year) the latest opinion was still that stirrups were invented somewhere near Korea and arrived in Europe in the 500s AD with the Avars.

N.B. Don't be fooled by the "stirrup myth" with regard to effective lance charging - the design of saddle is at least as important to a charging lancer as the presence of stirrups - a Celtic/Roman/Sarmatian horned saddle provides a lot of support.

If using the earlier period as a template, note that eastern legionarii tended to keep with mail as their armour, even when lorica segmentata was standard issue in the western provinces. Time to add some Weapon Familiarities to the 'usual suspects' that 'normal' characters take, methinks.

You can also have fun statting up period weapons like the pilum and (for those pesky barbarians - the Dacian sica/falx, the Germanic Angon and francisca, etc.).

Also remember that in the Early to Middle Imperial period, slings were important missile weapons for those Auxilia who were not archers, especially in the eastern provinces (horse archers - and their horses - not appreciating being hit by fast-moving lead slingshot, which I believe averaged about 50-60g in weight).

Anyway, best of luck... :)

[Mastermind]

Last time I checked (earlier this year) the latest opinion was still that stirrups were invented somewhere near Korea and arrived in Europe in the 500s AD with the Avars.

You are correct. I confused Alans with Avars. I have one of the books with those references. Also thanks for the reminder that heavy calvary and lance charges were not dependent on stirrups.

[Eosin]

But on the the other hand, they were also responsible for putting Keira Knightley in a battle-bikini...
:)


I thought those were the femanists pict societies? :hush:

Actully, the stuff I was reading (again, concerning the Alans this mostly comes from the Mamoth Book of Arthur) they had a quaint legend about the sword being thrown into the sea where is was taken by some kind of water spirit/mermaid thingy. The sword was something special but I can't recall exactly what...

Keira Knightley still looks hot in a battle-bikini but they should have gone ahead and made her a beserker... you know one of the naked kind. Now that would have been worth paying for....

[OddHat]

David Gemmell's Sword in the Storm and Midnight Falcon could both provide some very interesting plot seeds for this kind of game, and there's always HBO's Rome and both the book and TV versions of Robert Grave's I, Claudius. As much as I enjoyed Gladiator, there's a bit too much Hollywood morality forced into the setting for a really Roman campaign (imo).

On the questions of historical periods full of "good guys" doing horrible things, that's pretty much all of it.

[TheQuestionMan]

David Gemmell's Stones Of Power Series -- Ghost King and Last Sword of Power inclueds the Lost Legion storylines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gemmell#Stones_Of_Power_Series

David Gemmell's Greek Series (alternate history) -- Lion of Macedon and Dark Prince. Inclued Legion type elements.

David Gemmell's Troy Series -- Troy: The Lord of the Silver Bow, Troy: Shield of Thunder, and Troy: The Fall of Kings Inclued Legion type elements.

Harry Turtledove's The Videssos Books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove#The_Videssos_Books

Fiction set in ancient Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction_set_in_Ancient_Rome



More later

QM

[OddHat]

David Gemmell's Troy Series -- Troy: The Lord of the Silver Bow, Troy: Shield of Thunder, and Troy: The Fall of Kings Inclued Legion type elements.

Troy: Lord of the Silver Bow and Troy: Shield of Thunder have both been written. TFoK has not been released and, so far as I am aware, was not completed before Gemmell's death. All follow a Greek rather than a Roman theme, but certainly contain the seeds for some interesting Classical period campaigning.

[Lucius]

I may have mentioned this, but I have often wanted to do a campaign set among the barbarians who ultimately sacked Rome.

I'll call it Gothic Hero.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if berserkers ever fought mounted...

[Phil]

How many settings drawing on medieval Europe have, say, witch hunts or holy wars to kill the infidel -- human infidels I mean, not orcs?

At least one. The standard campaign setting for Ars Magica used to be in Languedoc / Provence around the time of the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars, a heretical Christian sect.

[Eosin]

Troy: Lord of the Silver Bow and Troy: Shield of Thunder have both been written. TFoK has not been released and, so far as I am aware, was not completed before Gemmell's death. All follow a Greek rather than a Roman theme, but certainly contain the seeds for some interesting Classical period campaigning.


I heard that his wife was finishing book 3 from his outline. Apparently she has been ghost writing with him for awhile. I think that was an official statement but I can't remember where it was posted.

[Markdoc]

At least one. The standard campaign setting for Ars Magica used to be in Languedoc / Provence around the time of the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars, a heretical Christian sect.

Yep. And one of the best games I've played in was a C&S game set during the first crusade. No orcs, no magic, just simple hand to hand violence and plenty of it, lightly spliced with politics, greed and betrayal.

A lot like the actual events, when one considers it.

cheers, Mark

[Mastermind]

yup lots of material for inspiration both historical and fictional...

How about some game write ups?

I found this here on the boards from a few years back...

Armatura
Cost Martial Arts Maneuver
1 Weapon Element: Blades, Shields
1 Extra Weapon Element: Spears
3 Thrust: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon Strike +2 DC [Notes: From shield wall +1 DCV per side "covered" by an ally up to +2]
4 Shield Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort [Notes: Only with Shields. Shield adds it's DCV to OCV.]
4 Return Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike, Must Follow Block
4 Hold: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort
4 Push: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to Shove [Notes: Only with Shields]
3 Defensive Turn: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +3 DCV, +5 STR to resist Disarm, Bind, Grab Weapon; Dodge, Abort
Martial Arts Cost: 24 Cost
Skill
2 WF: Blades, Polearms and Spears
2 PS: Soldier 11- 2 KS: Armatura Training 11-
1 Fast Draw 8-
1 Tactics 8-
3 Teamwork 11-
Skills Cost: 11
Total Cost: 35