What does "Overall" not cover?

[Sociotard]

I recently blew 20 points on a pair of overall skill levels on a character (he had a lot of skills). It's been nice! I can use any skill at 13- or 14- one at a time, my characteristic rolls are great too, plus I get an edge in ranged combat AND hth! It's totally worth it.

My question is what Overall can't do. Obviously it can't apply to any Activation Roll powers. Can it apply to Ego CSL's? How about PER rolls?

[ghost-angel]

They work everywhere, unless the GM says otherwise.

[Lucius]

They definitly apply in Ego combat and to Perception. The only thing I know of that they "officially" don't apply to are skills that are only Familiarities (i.e. at <=8) and personally I'd probably apply them even to that. I'd be interested to know how many people agree with me there, though.

Activation rolls? Don't know, officially.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks if there's something it doesn't apply to it's not an Overall level, it's an Overmost level.

[Sociotard]

They work everywhere, unless the GM says otherwise.
Including PER rolls? Awesome.

[ghost-angel]

Including PER Rolls, explicitely mentioned 5ER p70

[Sociotard]

Oh. You're right. it even mentions activation rolls being possible with GM permission.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ghost-angel again.

[dstarfire]

Oh. You're right. it even mentions activation rolls being possible with GM permission.

That's because activation rolls are often used to simulate skill rolls (rsr's suck). Many of the super-skills in Dark Champions use this approach.

At 10 pts to add +1 to a single skill/attack/char roll each phase, it ought to be d*mn versatile.

[CorPse]

To my knowledge you can't apply any sort of level to the Dive For Cover maneuver.

I've tried, believe me, I've tried.

CorPsey

[Cardinal]

would it apply to find weakness?

[Shaft]

The only thing I know of that they "officially" don't apply to are skills that are only Familiarities (i.e. at <=8) and personally I'd probably apply them even to that. I'd be interested to know how many people agree with me there, though.


I'd allow it if the character had a handful of fams and 1 or 2 skill levels.

If the character tried to buy 6 overall levels and only fams so he has the option of every skill at 14-, I'd disallow it.

[CrosshairCollie]

To my knowledge you can't apply any sort of level to the Dive For Cover maneuver.

I've tried, believe me, I've tried.

CorPsey

Weird, I was pretty sure you could ... 3 point levels with Dive For Cover, Dodge and Block makes for an annoying target. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

would it apply to find weakness?

That's a very good question. My gut says no, but I have absolutely no real basis for the statement.

[pinecone]

I recently blew 20 points on a pair of overall skill levels on a character (he had a lot of skills). It's been nice! I can use any skill at 13- or 14- one at a time, my characteristic rolls are great too, plus I get an edge in ranged combat AND hth! It's totally worth it.

My question is what Overall can't do. Obviously it can't apply to any Activation Roll powers. Can it apply to Ego CSL's? How about PER rolls?

I don't aply them to contacts, I'd be hesitant about Universal skills as well...

[pinecone]

I've always let'em apply to Find weak, and nothing has ever exploded...

[Shaft]

That's a very good question. My gut says no, but I have absolutely no real basis for the statement.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Find Weakness is a power, not a skill, and the cost is deliberately kept relatively high for game balance purposes.

[Wolfgar]

Well, by strictest rules definitions, it only applies to things you can do in overalls.

[Sociotard]

would it apply to find weakness?
Surprisingly, yes. again on page 70 it mentions that by name

[AmadanNaBriona]

To my knowledge you can't apply any sort of level to the Dive For Cover maneuver.

I've tried, believe me, I've tried.

CorPsey

Uh...Why not?
Unless theres a FAQ bit somewhere I haven't bothered reading, I don't see why any Level that adds to your Dex roll couldn't be used for the Dive for Cover.
That eliminates most CSL's, but Overall levels are still good.

[pinecone]

I agree...the "logic" is Dive is a Char roll so combat levels do not apply...but Overalls can be used for char rolls...it might be a house rule though....

[Edsel]

According to TUS on page 301 an Overall Skill level can be applied to:
"any Skill Roll, Characteristic Roll, PER Roll, Contact Roll, Find Weakness Roll, Attack Roll in normal or Mental Combat, Breakout Roll, or any other Roll the GM Approves. Characters can also use Overall Levels as if they were Combat Skill Levels to improve CV, ECV, the damage done by an attack, or for any other use to which a CSL can be put."

[Zed-F]

Yeah, Overalls work on Find Weakness and DFC. They even work on Contact rolls. They work on almost any roll that needs 3 dice, other than damage and knockback. ;)

[Edsel]

I am not as sure that they can work for Movement Levels, to do things like reducing turn mode. I am guessing that they can, but I can't find anything definitive one way or the other.

[CorPse]

Weird, I was pretty sure you could ... 3 point levels with Dive For Cover, Dodge and Block makes for an annoying target. :)

I stand corrected!

pg. 394 5ER---If a character has skill levels that can apply to DEX Rolls, he may use those to improve his DEX Roll when Diving For Cover, provided he has not already allocated them in the Segment when he uses the Maneuver. (Ergo, Overall Levels may apply to Dive For Cover.)

However, elsewhere on the same page it says that you cannot apply CSLs to Dive For Cover, because CSLs only effect CV. But, hey, just buy that DEX roll up a little and it'll pay huge dividends later on...

cP

[ghost-angel]

To my knowledge you can't apply any sort of level to the Dive For Cover maneuver.

I've tried, believe me, I've tried.

CorPsey


would it apply to find weakness?

Dive For Cover is a DEX Roll, Overall Skill Levels may be appiled to it.

Find Weakness is explicitely mentioned on 5ER p70. Yes You Can.

[ghost-angel]

Overall Skill Levels.

A Whole Lotta Love for a mere 10 Points.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Wouldn't an Overall Level not be applicable to the use of a skill the character could not conceivably know? For example, if I were a present-day character transported a thousand years in the future, I wouldn't be able to apply my Overall levels to tasks like repairing a stardrive until I had learned at least a little about how stardrives work (not to mention overcoming my belief that FTL travel is impossible by definition).

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't believe you can apply levekls to a Familiarity. If you could, skill levels + Cramming becomes more effective than buying skills.

[Edsel]

Page 12 of TUS says, "No Skill Level (not even Overall Skill Levels) can be used with a Familiarity. Logically they should not be usable with Untrained Skills either.
Oops, I used logic. Sorry Catgirls.

[Shaft]

Surprisingly, yes. again on page 70 it mentions that by name

I really should read the rules before posting my interpretations. ;) I owe you rep.

[actingkeith]

I love Overall Levels. Out of Combat Time, they're awesome.

One of the things that you need to keep in mind during Combat is that, like any other kind of Level, you can only allocate them to one purpose per Phase. So, for example, if the GM asks you to make a PER Roll, and you use them there, you can't, in that same Phase, use them for OCV, DCV, Dive for Cover... nothing.

It makes it very tactically important to juggle them well.

Cheers,

[Trebuchet]

Yeah, Overalls work on Find Weakness and DFC. They even work on Contact rolls. They work on almost any roll that needs 3 dice, other than damage and knockback. ;)Actually, you can use two Overall Levels like Combat Levels to add an additional +1 Damage Class; so they'll even work on damage rolls. :D

[Shaft]

Combat levels are indeed quite awesome. Personally, I think they should be worth 12 pts (since Combat Levels and Geenral Skill Levels both feel like Overall Skill Levels with a -1/2 limitation excluding the other), but:

1) 10 is a nice round number;
2) I can't bring myself to charge the numerous characters that I have who have bought them the extra point difference; and
3) I have too much respect for people who write & introduce the Dark Champions genre, trade in their legal careers to buy the company, and give said company new life to argue over 2 pts. ;)

[Vondy]

Baby, Overall means Overall.

Overall levels are one of the best buys in the system. They look expensive at first blush, but they're a fistfull of savings when you get down to brass tacks. I know GMs who don't allow them because of how effective they are. I do allow them, but I take a critical look first.

They can lead to bat(uber)mentsch syndrome (omni-competence), but they work very well for solo characters who have to be able to do it all, and for certain character types - skill hounds who have to hang with mega-heroes, for instance. You just have to be careful that the lack of granularity they introduce (the character just got better at almost everything) doesn't lead to stepping on other character's shtick.

Personally, I like them. And since I prefer heroic games and skill-heavy characters I tend to buy them...

[Hyper-Man]

About the only thing you can't apply Overall levels to besides the already mentioned Familiararities is the talent Cramming (which istelf just a temporary familiararity).

[Wolfgar]

They are better for some Heroes than for others.

Overall Levels have a decidely pulp-ish feel to me; I'm questioning whether they should be allowed in more "realistic" games. Am I just being paranoid?

[Markdoc]

Even in more "realistic" games they don't tend to be unbalancing (in my experience) simply because "realistic" games tend to use fewer points - at which stage sinking 30 points into +3 with everything is a really big investment.

In addition, many genres feature characters who are unusually competent in a range of areas (often alongside weaklings who are competent in almost nothing :D) so it's not necessarily out of genre.

cheers, Mark

[incrdbil]

About the only thing you can't apply Overall levels to besides the already mentioned Familiararities is the talent Cramming (which istelf just a temporary familiararity).

Thanks for the reminder about cramming; that'll stop the purchase of cramming with the dubious Overall levels bought with the limitation of only for Cramming (-2) to make the literal Mr. Know-it-All.

[Lucius]

Thanks for the reminder about cramming; that'll stop the purchase of cramming with the dubious Overall levels bought with the limitation of only for Cramming (-2) to make the literal Mr. Know-it-All.

That's assuming you want to stop it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary expects Lucius to now create a character named Batubermentsch

[Killer Shrike]

You can apply them to any 3d6 bell curve resolution roll. That includes PER Rolls, FW, and a slew of other rolls. Activation Rolls are borderline and require GM permission, and it generally boils down to SFX.

There is a reason why so many of the hundreds of characters I have made have at least one OL, and often many more.

[CorPse]

They are better for some Heroes than for others. Overall Levels have a decidely pulp-ish feel to me; I'm questioning whether they should be allowed in more "realistic" games. Am I just being paranoid?

I hear what you're saying, but as someone else pointed out above, OLs can only be used once per phase. The second you get into combat it can become a real poker game, especially if you are fighting multiple opponents by yourself. I have a hard time not second-guessing myself about where to put the levels.

[SteveZilla]

I hear what you're saying, but as someone else pointed out above, OLs can only be used once per phase. The second you get into combat it can become a real poker game, especially if you are fighting multiple opponents by yourself. I have a hard time not second-guessing myself about where to put the levels.

In that case, I think you really can't go wrong with putting them on DCV, since it's DCV vs both HtH and ranged attacks (AFAIK).

[Killer Shrike]

About the only thing you can't apply Overall levels to besides the already mentioned Familiararities is the talent Cramming (which istelf just a temporary familiararity).

Improved Cramming (http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberCharacters_BodyTech_Biofeedback.shtml)

[Sean Waters]

Head, feet and hands. Lower arms if you roll the sleeves up.

[pinecone]

Overalls of supreme knowlage: +3 Overall,Lim: OIF,overalls
Just one of the many weapons in the arsenal of the hillbilly King!
Yeeha!

[Shaft]

Head, feet and hands. Lower arms if you roll the sleeves up.

That's "Coveralls". Overalls leave the arms & shoulders exposed, as well as the upper chest.

Kinda like an evening gown, but more "HeeHaw"...

[Vondy]

That's "Coveralls". Overalls leave the arms & shoulders exposed, as well as the upper chest.

Kinda like an evening gown, but more "HeeHaw"...

There's nothing quite as cutting edge and exciting as American fashion!

[Sean Waters]

That's "Coveralls". Overalls leave the arms & shoulders exposed, as well as the upper chest.

Kinda like an evening gown, but more "HeeHaw"...

That might depend on which calendars you are looking at :)

[Killer Shrike]

Overalls of supreme knowlage: +3 Overall,Lim: OIF,overalls
Just one of the many weapons in the arsenal of the hillbilly King!
Yeeha!

Kind of like Kung Fu Elvis (http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/King%20of%20Kung%20Fu%20.HTML)

[AmadanNaBriona]

That might depend on which calendars you are looking at :)

the jumpsuits they're ALMOST wearing in the Girls of NASCAR Calender are coveralls. The button top sleeveless denim things falling off the girls in the 4H Hayseed Hotties calendar are overalls.

That clear things up? :eg:

[SteveZilla]

I think we need to see these examples you speak of. ;)

[Tauman.EXE]

(offtopic)


CrosshairCollie wrote:
Weird, I was pretty sure you could ... 3 point levels with Dive For Cover, Dodge and Block makes for an annoying target.

Wouldn't that be quite pointless? I was in the impression that you only gain the DCV bonus against attacks that was covered by the skill level? (eg. HTH applied to DCV don't help you against ranged attacks) Won't that make the dodge useless. (yay, +3 DCV vs block and dive cover)

[TheUnknown]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Find Weakness is a power, not a skill, and the cost is deliberately kept relatively high for game balance purposes.

Right I would Agree it is a power not a skill and thus you would draw the line there as A GM if it would cause problems in your game but unfortunely the rules let them apply to everything except Fam.

[TheUnknown]

Uh...Why not?
Unless theres a FAQ bit somewhere I haven't bothered reading, I don't see why any Level that adds to your Dex roll couldn't be used for the Dive for Cover.
That eliminates most CSL's, but Overall levels are still good.

Wll even if you couldn't directly add them to dive for covers it's a manuever that requires a dex roll so add them there wala its done.

[Hyper-Man]

(offtopic)

Wouldn't that be quite pointless? I was in the impression that you only gain the DCV bonus against attacks that was covered by the skill level? (eg. HTH applied to DCV don't help you against ranged attacks) Won't that make the dodge useless. (yay, +3 DCV vs block and dive cover)

Nope,

The only real problem with CHC's approach is that it is mixing a CSL with a SL.

according to 5ER a 3 point CSL can be used, among other things, to increase OCV or DCV with 3 specific manuevers. Increasing your OCV while performing a Block will of course have no affect on ranged attacks. Increasing your DCV while performing a Dodge WILL affect ranged attacks since Dodge does this by default. However, Dive for Cover does not increase DCV. It is like a 'defensive fastdraw' to move into a different hex before the attack hits the hex the character 'was' in. CSL's have no effect on the actual success of Dive for Cover because the resolution mechanic is a DEX roll with movement (only SL's with DEX or movement can increase this). CSL's can certainly be used to increase a character's otherwise 1/2 DCV while Diving for Cover as a hedge bet. No different than using a CSL's to increase DCV while Blocking, which is a hedge of sorts since the Block will stop a specific HTH attack when successful.

[CorPse]

CSL's have no effect on the actual success of Dive for Cover because the resolution mechanic is a DEX roll with movement (only SL's with DEX or movement can increase this). CSL's can certainly be used to increase a character's otherwise 1/2 DCV while Diving for Cover as a hedge bet. No different than using a CSL's to increase DCV while Blocking, which is a hedge of sorts since the Block will stop a specific HTH attack when successful.

I agree with the majority of this. However, I am curious how a SL w/ movement could effect a DEX Roll? Only things that up the DEX Roll may be used with Dive For Cover. And as far as I can tell that's only two things: 1. SL that increase your DEX Rool, or 2. Overall Levels.

But, hey, I've been wrong before... even in this Thread... so I await correction.

[Hyper-Man]

I agree with the majority of this. However, I am curious how a SL w/ movement could effect a DEX Roll? Only things that up the DEX Roll may be used with Dive For Cover. And as far as I can tell that's only two things: 1. SL that increase your DEX Rool, or 2. Overall Levels.

But, hey, I've been wrong before... even in this Thread... so I await correction.

see this post:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=674601&postcount=31


Movement Skill Levels are already applicable to DFC per 5ER, page 369.

Here are all of their possible uses:

Lower Turn Mode by 1 (minimum of 0").
Add +1 to any roll (like a DEX roll for DFC) required to land in, or otherwise move to, a particular hex.
(at GM's option) Increase acceleration or deceleration with his modes of movement (not vehicles) by 1" per hex per Skill Level applied.
(at GM's option) Improve DCV if Dodging or using a Combat or Martial Maneuver that provides bonuses to DCV while moving.Skill Levels with one mode of mevement cost 2 Character points per Level. Skill Levels that apply to any of a character's modes of movement cost 3 Character Points per Level.

[CorPse]

see this post:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=674601&postcount=31

Cool... very cool...

[Sean Waters]

the jumpsuits they're ALMOST wearing in the Girls of NASCAR Calender are coveralls. The button top sleeveless denim things falling off the girls in the 4H Hayseed Hotties calendar are overalls.

That clear things up? :eg:

Quite the opposite: now something is going to need clearing up.

[SteveZilla]

Just in case some don't know this:

Any effect that halves DCV is applied *last* in the calculation. This means that it takes *two* skill levels applied to DCV in some way to effect a 1 pt increase.

[Alibear]

That's "Coveralls". Overalls leave the arms & shoulders exposed, as well as the upper chest.

Kinda like an evening gown, but more "HeeHaw"...


Point of order! Sean was speaking English, you are speaking Americanish. In Scotland we say Boiler suit. :)

[Hyper-Man]

Just in case some don't know this:

Any effect that halves DCV is applied *last* in the calculation. This means that it takes *two* skill levels applied to DCV in some way to effect a 1 pt increase.

except when rounding is factored in.

example:
DEX 23
normal DCV 8
add 1 Overall Level to DCV and you get a half DCV of 5.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I am not as sure that they can work for Movement Levels, to do things like reducing turn mode. I am guessing that they can, but I can't find anything definitive one way or the other.

I would say yes. I've used them in that way before. I would say that "Overall Skill Levels" can be used in any way that any other type of Skill Level can be used. In addition, Overall Skill Levels can be used for any applicable roll as ruled by the GM.

[SteveZilla]

I would say yes. I've used them in that way before. I would say that "Overall Skill Levels" can be used in any way that any other type of Skill Level can be used. In addition, Overall Skill Levels can be used for any applicable roll as ruled by the GM.

Could an Overall Skill Level be used as a Penalty Skill Level, or is this a moot question?

It might be easier to list what an Overall Level can't do, since it can do so much even before touching "GM's option" uses.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Could an Overall Skill Level be used as a Penalty Skill Level, or is this a moot question?

It might be easier to list what an Overall Level can't do, since it can do so much even before touching "GM's option" uses.

Yeah, thats kinda a moot point, since a Penalty Skill Level is simply a very limited Combat Skill Level. Any Combat Skill Level could be used in the same manner as a PSL.

[ghost-angel]

Could an Overall Skill Level be used as a Penalty Skill Level, or is this a moot question?

It might be easier to list what an Overall Level can't do, since it can do so much even before touching "GM's option" uses.

Sure. Take PSL: vs Range. and Overall SL. Both can add +1 to OCV, the PSL can only add it to counter Range Modifiers, the OSL applies in all situations.

[SteveZilla]

Yeah, thats kinda a moot point, since a Penalty Skill Level is simply a very limited Combat Skill Level. Any Combat Skill Level could be used in the same manner as a PSL.

That's pretty much what I thought. I haven't used PSLs before, and I just didn't feel like digging out my 5RE to double check myself. :o

[pinecone]

Kind of like Kung Fu Elvis (http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/King%20of%20Kung%20Fu%20.HTML)

God I love Kung fu Elvis....a ninja who can sing are you lonesome tonight while suprise attacking you....;)

[SteveZilla]

God I love Kung fu Elvis....a ninja who can sing are you lonesome tonight while suprise attacking you....;)

Or sings 'Jailhouse Rock' while using Jailhouse Rock. ;)