Gargoyles HERO

[Robyn]

2 animated seasons and an emerging comic book series. Its writer (the original Gargoyles author), in a nod to (dis?)continuity fans everywhere, is basically pretending the 3rd season never happened :D

I can't be the only one here who thinks Gargoyles would make a good Dark Fantasy campaign, right? Right?!?

Come on, people. Chime in so I don't feel like the only one interested in converting this to HERO :dyn

[Scion Zane]

yea Gargoyals was a great show and would make a great game idea for hero

[Lucius]

Only saw the show a couple of times; was impressed.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Hero

[Major Tom]

Oh, yes, Gargoyles... Beauty and the Beast with aliens, super-
villains, lasers, and Illuminated conspiracies galore.

And let's not forget the occasional visitor or two from Avalon or some other
cloaked/hidden island somewhere in the world.

Not to mention time travel.

Oh, yeah, this would make an interesting campaign for Champions.


Major Tom :cool:

[Midas]

Indeed. Let us file the 3rd season with ST:TAS, all those HL movies that came out after the first, etc.

Gargs was an interesting universe. I am on record that the show went downhill -not at the third season- but when the "Avalon World Tour" started. It went from being a small enclosed SH universe to something of a bad Marvel clone. IMHO of course. ;)

Midas

[Lord Liaden]

Indeed. Let us file the 3rd season with ST:TAS, all those HL movies that came out after the first, etc.

Gargs was an interesting universe. I am on record that the show went downhill -not at the third season- but when the "Avalon World Tour" started. It went from being a small enclosed SH universe to something of a bad Marvel clone. IMHO of course. ;)

Midas

I'm with you there. Up until the climactic confrontation at Avalon the series gave a strong sense of a major underlying plotline that slowly drew these diverse characters, incidents and conflicts together as it was gradually revealed. After that the series seemed to lose its focus; I suspect the writers themselves were unsure where to take it from there.

The animation also started to look a little sloppier IMO.

[Midas]

The animation also started to look a little sloppier IMO.

Though I have to admit that I got a laugh out of one ep where they changed the animation so that Elisa was guest played by Jessica Rabbit. :nonp:

Re the OP, there are some problems with GargHero:

The Hero System warns against taking Phy Limits that make a character powerful in certain situations, helpless in others (They specifically used the example "Powerful at night helpless by day". I think they were thinking of Vampires, but it applies to Gargoyles as well.) Elisa would be pretty helpless by herself in the clock tower if say, Xanatos in his evil incarnation, were to drop by the clock tower With a dozen robots. That is, if she wasn't home asleep in the first place.

Another problem is that in Gargverse, the Timeline is unchangeable. You can go back in time, but only to start a sequence of events that has already happened. IMO, this is very hard to ref ("OK, you are now in the past: All characters are NPC's, this is what you do...")

How much Handwavium do you want to have available? I personally prefer to us it as little as possible, but of course tastes differ. The ref can simply declare, "That's the way it is. Don't worry about it" or some answers can be spelled out, at least in the ref notes.

For example, how much do Gargs weigh? Their wings ("We don't fly, we glide") aren't much bigger than their bodies, implying they weigh almost nothing, else they would fall like...<ahem> stone. Do they weigh the same during their day phase? If so, they should have been able to be carried around like balsa models. If they gain weight to become stone, where does that extra mass come from?

What kind of PD do those wings have, anyway? In Hero terms, they have "Deflect, All" but watching bullets bounce off them...

A few other questions (remember, the AFDG newsgroup really was active when the show was on, many questions were chewed over), but I'll save them for another post.

Midas
PS: Thanks, now I have the Theme running through my head:
Lah la la la la la la laaaaaa lalala :rolleyes:
Ever notice how sim that theme is to the original BSG theme?

[Robyn]

Re the OP, there are some problems with GargHero:

The Hero System warns against taking Phy Limits that make a character powerful in certain situations, helpless in others (They specifically used the example "Powerful at night helpless by day". I think they were thinking of Vampires, but it applies to Gargoyles as well.) Elisa would be pretty helpless by herself in the clock tower if say, Xanatos in his evil incarnation, were to drop by the clock tower With a dozen robots. That is, if she wasn't home asleep in the first place.

I considered posting this in the Fantasy HERO forum because I had difficulty envisioning a playable campaign outside the medieval "protection pact with humans" setting.

I don't think this poses as much of a problem as "helpless", though; if all (or even just most) of the PC's are gargoyles, the GM can simply run games that only take place at night. If one (or more) of them was captured/relocated overnight, this will become apparent when they awaken. If one (or more) of them gets smashed, they may never wake up at all :eek:

This strikes me as more of a "plot device" than game mechanic; a Secret might cover it, but sometimes friends can learn the Secret without sharing it freely, and even enemies might keep it to themselves for a rainy day.

A modern campaign is feasible if the PC's realize and accept that secrecy is paramount - if they fail to maintain it, they may very well die!

The problem is that there are two secrets. One of them is the nature of the gargoyles (that they turn to stone during the day, and are helpless to defend themselves during that time). Another is the exact location they hide in. The latter can change, especially if they realize that they have become Hunted by their enemies (which may include the general public :nonp:).

For the first, a Social Limitation modelled after Secret Identity seems appropriate; there may or may not be an extreme risk of death or injury (that could reflect the number of people who want the gargoyles dead, but also by how easily such death or injury might be inflicted upon the gargoyles, and the latter seems more appropriate for that second aspect, namely location), but if exposed it would, in turn, expose the character to attack. But, as noted in the third paragraph, the Secret can be exposed to one without, necessarily, exposure to all. The description of Secret Identity given in the book offers a Severe version only if the character has a large number of enemies who would wish to kill/maim him; this seems to require that the Secret be compromised for everyone.

The second aspect suffers from similar problems; location can be changed overnight, leaving any previously compromised Secret Locations no longer "revealed", in the sense that the gargoyles' current (for that night, and possibly any future nights as well) location is still unknown to others.


Another problem is that in Gargverse, the Timeline is unchangeable. You can go back in time, but only to start a sequence of events that has already happened.

Playing in a strictly canon universe, this is true. But how many GM's run their campaigns to be that strictly by canon? Also, time travel is highly restricted; the Phoenix Gate was a unique item, and - if you're going by canon - accounted for throughout the Timeline (though, yes, I know; time travel is perfect for borrowing something for an entire campaign and returning it later, seamlessly, to the exact moment it was borrowed from), so it's unlikely the GM will face that sort of situation unless they are already violating canon!


For example, how much do Gargs weigh? Their wings ("We don't fly, we glide") aren't much bigger than their bodies, implying they weigh almost nothing, else they would fall like...<ahem> stone. Do they weigh the same during their day phase? If so, they should have been able to be carried around like balsa models. If they gain weight to become stone, where does that extra mass come from?

What kind of PD do those wings have, anyway? In Hero terms, they have "Deflect, All" but watching bullets bounce off them...

I think the two questions go together: for that size, they would need to have hollow bones and be quite fragile inside to "realistically" fly at all, much less glide, and I still think that's pushing "realism" quite a bit ;)

But they are, obviously, quite durable; and, so, I think it appropriate to refer all questioners to the same SFX that justifies nonhuman creatures who turn to stone during the day and revert each night (usually) - magic :p

For the PD question, I think that's simply "tough as stone" regular (resistant?) PD (or Armor) with the SFX "attacks that deal no damage, bounce".

[Midas]

The Hero System warns against taking Phy Limits that make a character powerful in certain situations, helpless in others (They specifically used the example "Powerful at night helpless by day". I think they were thinking of Vampires, but it applies to Gargoyles as well.) Elisa would be pretty helpless by herself in the clock tower if say, Xanatos in his evil incarnation, were to drop by the clock tower With a dozen robots. That is, if she wasn't home asleep in the first place.

I considered posting this in the Fantasy HERO forum because I had difficulty envisioning a playable campaign outside the medieval "protection pact with humans" setting.

<Summary> The helplessness during the day simulated by two SI's rather than a Phys DV. First, the danger bought as an SI (Don't let anyone know your vulnerability), and the location of the lair as a second SI.


Another problem is that in Gargverse, the Timeline is unchangeable.

Playing in a strictly canon universe, this is true.


For example, how much do Gargs weigh? Their wings ("We don't fly, we glide") aren't much bigger than their bodies, implying they weigh almost nothing, else they would fall like...<ahem> stone. Do they weigh the same during their day phase? If so, they should have been able to be carried around like balsa models. If they gain weight to become stone, where does that extra mass come from?

What kind of PD do those wings have, anyway? In Hero terms, they have "Deflect, All" but watching bullets bounce off them...

I think the two questions go together: for that size, they would need to have hollow bones and be quite fragile inside to "realistically" fly at all, much less glide, and I still think that's pushing "realism" quite a bit ;)

But they are, obviously, quite durable; and, so, I think it appropriate to refer all questioners to the same SFX that justifies nonhuman creatures who turn to stone during the day and revert each night (usually) - magic :p

For the PD question, I think that's simply "tough as stone" regular (resistant?) PD (or Armor) with the SFX "attacks that deal no damage, bounce".

:) I think I'd just leave it as a deflect. If the deflect fails, then they take damage as normal.


How much Handwavium do you want to have available?

So you're saying that gargoyle shed stone is high grade Handwavium ore? :sneaky:

I think the amount of realism depends on whether you are running a heroic or superheroic campaign.

Gargs to me was a standard low power Champions world: The basic gargoyle template would be a flying (Glide, dammit GLIDE!) low end brick, and if you go that route, "It works because it does, that's all." pretty well pure handwavium battlesuits etc.

If you go the heroic route, whether DC or FH, then it might matter a bit more. For Ex: Who, exactly, does Xanatos own in NYC to be allowed to have his own militarily armed followers? In an SH campaign, it wouldn't matter that much, the megolamaniac villian *always* has a personal army. But Heroic characters could either try to root out the corruption, or buy permission for a personal army themselves.

Here's one for you, who (what?) are the Children of Oberon? They are much more than your generic elves, in effect they are/were gods. Anubis for example has the power to kill anyone with a wave of his hand: RKA, personal immunity, based on ego, does damage, area effect: horizon? And Oberon is the strongest of all. And he personally laid siege to Xanator/Manhatton.

Midas

PS: Prolly a good idea to make Brooklyn the only time traveller, and let it go at that...

[TheQuestionMan]

I never got into it did it get better and then worse?

Which Episodes should I watch?

QM

[Midas]

I never got into it did it get better and then worse?

Which Episodes should I watch?

QM

Well, 1st Season is on DVD for $23. If you want to watch the show on Disney, start with the five part "Awakenings" premiere. It gives you a good scorecard about Black Hats and White Hats (Though the creator made a specific point about all the characters having some shades of grey).

Here's the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyles_%28tv%29

Here's the annotated ep list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gargoyles_episodes
(There be spoilers there, Matey)

After Awakenings, I'd go with Temptation, Deadly Force, and Long Way to Morning. Deadly force might not even be available over the air, it was a controversial episode: The gargs sneak into a theatre and watch a horse opera, then one of them visit's Elisa afterwards. He tries to live out the action, putting Elisa in the hospital. If you ever catch Enter MacBeth (the next episode), now you know why Elisa is on crutches in that ep. :p

Second Season: Definately see Mirror. Leader of the Pack is good, and the City of Stone mini (four parts).

There are two "breaks" in the series, where things changed behind the scenes. Not too long after City of Stone, the "Avalon World Tour" began. Three of the characters disappeared and were taken willy nilly around the world for the next TWENTY TWO episodes. It drastically expanded the size of Gargverse, introducing a horde of new characters. Personally, only two or three of the eps in that arc are worth watching (IMNSHO): Heritage, and Ill Met by Moonlight. I personally enjoy Cloud Fathers, but that is just for fun.

After the World Tour, Gathering Parts I & II should be watched. I personally enjoy Turf, for the comic scenes, and Vandettas. The latter is usually considered one of the poorer eps, so YMMV. ;)

Season three: Um...yeah. In a nutshell what happened with ST:TOS and Andromeda happened to Gargoyles. Creative differences led to all the intelligent, imaginative people behind the scenes leaving, and a bunch of hacks writing an unintentional parody. I would say not to see any of them unless you are hooked on the series, but if you want to have one to avoid the most, don't watch Ransom. The others in season 3 at least have some interesting scenes between the dreck, but Ransom...prolly the worst ep of the entire series.


Midas

[Robyn]

Here's one for you, who (what?) are the Children of Oberon?

The best answer will probably wait until Greg Weisman publishes it in the Gargoyles comics - but I'm willing to share my interpretation of the material available so far.


Oberon is the strongest of all.

I'll reply to this alone as it seems, to me, to be the overlooked piece in these mysteries.

Is it possible for any being to give rise to progeny that will exceed it in power?

If so, many apparent contradictions are resolved; Oberon isn't more powerful than all his children, he's merely the forefather. He may have created them with special vulnerabilities to him alone, or they may obey out of respect, or fear him for his reputation, or fear the forces he commands.

If not, Oberon can be seen as a parallel to King Arthur; an ancient being who sired the known gods (and was therefore, necessarily, more powerful than any of them), he could have ruled for an eternity, but eventually even his empire would have fallen. So, instead, he chose to become less than he once was, and to hibernate on Avalon for a thousand years at a stretch, giving way for other Powers (his children) to make their own mark on the world. Every thousand years, he wakes up and calls them home to find out how they've been doing, so he can remind them who gave them their world and take pride in their accomplishments.

[Robyn]

I think I've made some progress on the Secrets part; they're mere SFX to the Hunted.

What happens when someone finds out the Gargoyles' secret? Backtrack a bit: how does someone find out their Secret?

This person learns the location of their lair, of course, but how does this happen? Is this revelation restricted to "someone in the know tipping them off", or can they track down the gargoyles' lair on their own? In any case, when it occurs due to anything but the PC's telling them, doesn't it require the GM's intervention?

GM intervention: roleplaying the NPC's who are "in the know", or rollplaying the Search dice of NPC's who don't know, but are trying to find out.

How do NPC's make trouble for the PC's? Sure, the GM decides (however this works) that they will be in this session's adventure, but do they just roll dice? Or does the GM arrange to have them involved in the plot?

Same thing happens with a Hunted: the GM rolls their Frequency, and, if their number comes up, works them into the plot. This isn't anything contrived; it's exactly how everything else in the game happens, anyway.

This is an extended-duration Frequency; not measured by game session (which is, really, a meta-game consideration) but when the PC's find a new roost.

Since the enemy who knows their secret location may be different every time, make the Hunted a Floating Hunted.

Then, the Frequency can be rolled every time someone new learns the secret, or every night, or whenever; and, if the Frequency indicates that their Hunted has not shown up yet, the people who learned their Secret turn out to be friendly, or perhaps are biding their time and gathering strength for an attack. If the Frequency indicates a Hunted, it can be taken as a successful skill roll for finding them if anyone was looking; or, the information leaked from an NPC ally/friend who already knew; or, an existing friend has become an enemy.

[Guelphite]

Good Morning All,
If it matters at this stage, I think that Gargoyles would be an acceptable game idea in my house.
I do not get too caught up in 'legal' boundaries as to which genre this fits into.
In my campaigns (and like DC and Marvel) that there is a blend in all the genres.
After watching several episodes, I read that Roy Thomas has written several episodes, he is from the old late '60s and '70s Marvel fame and was pretty popular.
Good luck with setting it up and remember due to the game system there might be a few snags but don't let that deter you. Nothing is perfect and just enjoy it for the sake of it.
Guelphite

[Shaft]

One of the Gargoyle comic artists is in my campaign. She's not on the forum, but I'm sure she'll be thrilled to learn that there's such an interest here.

In that same campaign, another player is playing a Gargoyle (in a high powered Dark Champions "Animated Series" game, of all settings!). We tweaked the rules so that the character turns to stone when he sleeps as opposed to setting his schedule to day and night. His 4 hour sleep cycle also triggers regeneration, so that after he awakens he's back to full health.


The character adds a certain old world nobility to the game, and refers to the costumed crimefighters as modern day Knights. He also has AK: Husdon City rooftops as opposed to AK: Hudson City. We gave him gliding (restrainable: wings) and a 35 STR (plus another 3d6 in HA, and a HKA to represent his claws). In "flesh" form, he weighs less than stone (no persistent density increase or the like).

He usually "sleeps" on a Church in Freetown, where he has befriended Fr Lonnergan (from the old Normals Unbound supplement), who is a DNPC. He is literate in Latin, and spends some of his leisure time browsing religious texts to determine if he has a soul. Fr Lonnergan feels he does.

[Midas]

<re who/what are the Children of Oberon>
Is it possible for any being to give rise to progeny that will exceed it in power?

Mythologically, sure.

Zeus beat up his father, who had beat up *his* father.

And in Hero or Runequest terms, it is certainly possible to round up experiece points beyond what dad ever did.


If so, many apparent contradictions are resolved; Oberon isn't more powerful than all his children, he's merely the forefather. He may have created them with special vulnerabilities to him alone, or they may obey out of respect, or fear him for his reputation, or fear the forces he commands.

If not, Oberon can be seen as a parallel to King Arthur; an ancient being who sired the known gods (and was therefore, necessarily, more powerful than any of them), he could have ruled for an eternity, but eventually even his empire would have fallen. So, instead, he chose to become less than he once was, and to hibernate on Avalon for a thousand years at a stretch, giving way for other Powers (his children) to make their own mark on the world. Every thousand years, he wakes up and calls them home to find out how they've been doing, so he can remind them who gave them their world and take pride in their accomplishments.

Well, according to fanon, and perhaps canon, Oberon refers to the others as his "children" in the regal sense, not the literally paternal. I'm not sure which way I would go. Are the others merely younger, or less powerful, or perhaps Oberon and Titania togather have enough strength to make everybody else sit down and behave?

OTOH, Interesting idea if Oberon is the literal father. He and Titania can quote the Bible at the others: "Respect your Father and Mother!" :sneaky:

Midas

[Midas]

I think I've made some progress on the Secrets part; they're mere SFX to the Hunted.

What happens when someone finds out the Gargoyles' secret? Backtrack a bit: how does someone find out their Secret?

This person learns the location of their lair, of course, but how does this happen? Is this revelation restricted to "someone in the know tipping them off", or can they track down the gargoyles' lair on their own? In any case, when it occurs due to anything but the PC's telling them, doesn't it require the GM's intervention?

GM intervention: roleplaying the NPC's who are "in the know", or rollplaying the Search dice of NPC's who don't know, but are trying to find out.

How do NPC's make trouble for the PC's? Sure, the GM decides (however this works) that they will be in this session's adventure, but do they just roll dice? Or does the GM arrange to have them involved in the plot?

Same thing happens with a Hunted: the GM rolls their Frequency, and, if their number comes up, works them into the plot. This isn't anything contrived; it's exactly how everything else in the game happens, anyway.

OK, lets use Thailog for the hunted, and let us presume his "SI" (his very existance) is known the the PC gargs. Thailog has a good PRE roll and a fair number of PRE skills; Bureaucracy, st wise, that would give adds to his detective skill. One rule book somewhere talks about someone with a high enough detective skill cracking an SI. Another suggests that any successful roll not always be a yes/no: For instance, making the roll by zero or one would merely give a small clue: "It is significant that the Gargs hang out with a police detective" not "They are nesting above the cop shop." That would be making the roll by 10 (that would be using the impossible roll rules).

So say Thailog is rolled as a hunted, and makes his detective roll by 3. He notices that there is a pattern to the "demonic crime busters." The busts that take place minutes before dawn are all located within a nine block square. The Trio is patrolling one night in one direction, and Goliath and Hudson the other. They see "Goliath" perched on a rooftop nearby, and swoop over to see what he wants. Thailog, not wanting a fight right now, sprints for cover, to lose the Trio. Later, Brooklyn braces Goliath about what he wanted, and Goliath denies ever being where he was "seen." The gargs make a basic deduction, and realise that Thailog is up to something. But only on a good roll do they realize that he is scouting to locate them.


This is an extended-duration Frequency; not measured by game session (which is, really, a meta-game consideration) but when the PC's find a new roost.

Since the enemy who knows their secret location may be different every time, make the Hunted a Floating Hunted.

I'm not sure this would really be necessary. So the hunter makes his connection and goes "Aha! The Clock Tower!" The clan finds out that their secret is known to an enemy, and makes a quick deal with MacBeth to flop at his place for a few days. :rolleyes: So now the hunted needs to start over, it needn't be floating.

Then, the Frequency...

Not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you expand?'

Midas

[Midas]

Good Morning All,
If it matters at this stage, I think that Gargoyles would be an acceptable game idea in my house.
I do not get too caught up in 'legal' boundaries as to which genre this fits into.
In my campaigns (and like DC and Marvel) that there is a blend in all the genres.
After watching several episodes, I read that Roy Thomas has written several episodes, he is from the old late '60s and '70s Marvel fame and was pretty popular.
Good luck with setting it up and remember due to the game system there might be a few snags but don't let that deter you. Nothing is perfect and just enjoy it for the sake of it.
Guelphite

Hey lurker! :D

:eek: UNTRUE! The Hero system can accurately simulate any invironment or mythos! Thou shalt not question the abilities of Hero! :rolleyes:

Which did Thomas write?

Midas

[Midas]

One of the Gargoyle comic artists is in my campaign. She's not on the forum, but I'm sure she'll be thrilled to learn that there's such an interest here.

:cool: Does she share the opinion that the animation for the ep Seeing isn't Believing to be strange?


In that same campaign, another player is playing a Gargoyle (in a high powered Dark Champions "Animated Series" game, of all settings!). We tweaked the rules so that the character turns to stone when he sleeps as opposed to setting his schedule to day and night. His 4 hour sleep cycle also triggers regeneration, so that after he awakens he's back to full health.

Interesting variant. Note canon of course, but hey, if it works... :D

How much of gargoyle biology and culture was kept?


The character adds a certain old world nobility to the game, and refers to the costumed crimefighters as modern day Knights. He also has AK: Husdon City rooftops as opposed to AK: Hudson City. We gave him gliding (restrainable: wings) and a 35 STR (plus another 3d6 in HA, and a HKA to represent his claws). In "flesh" form, he weighs less than stone (no persistent density increase or the like).

His wings keep him aloft with Handwavium, I presume. ;) Does he gain mass when stone?


He usually "sleeps" on a Church in Freetown, where he has befriended Fr Lonnergan (from the old Normals Unbound supplement), who is a DNPC. He is literate in Latin, and spends some of his leisure time browsing religious texts to determine if he has a soul. Fr Lonnergan feels he does.

Sounds like an interesting hobby. Does he have a psych lim or something on it?

Which brings me to my next "How to run a garg campaign" question.

Wiseman took a cop out on garg religion, of course he didn't want to provoke the fen, their parents, the Professionally Outraged... So he just made an off the cuff remark about "Gargoyles don't think about religion much."

First thought: How could any intelligent creature living in 10th century Europe not think about religion? :nonp:

Secondly: This makes the gargolyes much more alien -less human- than they have been shown to be. :eek:

It was suggested that a supposed gargoyle religion would be similar to Druidism, with rituals of renewal, due to their own sleep/regen biology.

Another possibility would be something similar to Eastern Philosophies like Bhuddism or Taoism.

Or perhaps Diabolism? "We look like Demons, we are called Demons, we are persecuted as if we were demons..." I s'pect Demona's outlook would be much more common than what was shown.

Midas

[Robyn]

This is an extended-duration Frequency; not measured by game session (which is, really, a meta-game consideration) but when the PC's find a new roost.

Since the enemy who knows their secret location may be different every time, make the Hunted a Floating Hunted.

I'm not sure this would really be necessary. So the hunter makes his connection and goes "Aha! The Clock Tower!" The clan finds out that their secret is known to an enemy, and makes a quick deal with MacBeth to flop at his place for a few days. :rolleyes: So now the hunted needs to start over, it needn't be floating.

Then, the Frequency can be rolled every time someone new learns the secret, or every night, or whenever; and, if the Frequency indicates that their Hunted has not shown up yet, the people who learned their Secret turn out to be friendly, or perhaps are biding their time and gathering strength for an attack. If the Frequency indicates a Hunted, it can be taken as a successful skill roll for finding them if anyone was looking; or, the information leaked from an NPC ally/friend who already knew; or, an existing friend has become an enemy.

Not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you expand?'

The two go together, so I've marked your text in red and restored my paragraph; I'll expand from there so you don't have to scroll back up (or switch to a different window) to compare with the original.

Xanatos - is he one of the gargoyles' Hunted?


Floating Hunted allows the GM to provide the character with an "enemy of the month," rather than having to bring the same enemy back again and again.

The rules already allow for dealing with a character's Hunted; the recommendation is, if XP are not paid for buying off the Disadvantage, to replace with an equivalently priced Disadvantage.

The rules also allow for gaining Disadvantages during game play, but not for gaining XP to balance this.

Characters earn XP for their Disadvantages by suffering drawbacks above and beyond what everyone else does - everyone who hasn't taken the same Disadvantage, that is.

The threat from having the gargoyles' nature - or home - exposed (publicly or not) is one that endangers the entire group, not just that single gargoyle who received points for it. Exceptions, such as a runaway who is not staying with the rest or a couple of warriors out on patrol who cannot return before dawn, test but do not disprove this rule.

One way of handling this is to build the Disadvantage as Everyman (part of the campaign baseline, no points received for it). But it's worth points, and by using Floating, further Hunted that develop (or are encountered) during game play will already have been defined as part of that Disadvantage; they are the flavor of the month, or at least another candidate for that position.

[Robyn]

This is an extended-duration Frequency; not measured by game session (which is, really, a meta-game consideration) but when the PC's find a new roost.

I'll now give some examples of how I see this playing out:


Then, the Frequency can be rolled every time someone new learns the secret, or every night, or whenever; and, if the Frequency indicates that their Hunted has not shown up yet, the people who learned their Secret turn out to be friendly, or perhaps are biding their time and gathering strength for an attack. If the Frequency indicates a Hunted, it can be taken as a successful skill roll for finding them if anyone was looking; or, the information leaked from an NPC ally/friend who already knew; or, an existing friend has become an enemy.

Every night, the GM rolls Frequency on the (Floating) Hunted to see if one shows up. The first night, no. The second night, yes (Xanatos). The third night, yes (Macbeth), but they haven't dealt with Xanatos yet, so that Hunted is presumed to be gathering forces for another attack. Just because they're currently dealing with another Hunted, doesn't mean the first (Xanatos) has been "dealt with"; he just isn't in their faces, right now. On the fourth night, their GM rolls Frequency and introduces a few members of The Pack, but the gargoyles manage to assist Xanatos' fiance with reminding them why they weren't supposed to come back there (ever again), and Xanatos' gratitude extends to no longer being angry at them. Macbeth is still out there, but Xanatos is no longer available for selecting from the villains' roster when a Floating Hunted is rolled. Unless, of course, none of the available villains are appropriate, in which case something may have happened to get him angry at them again.

Annoyed at how easily their enemies are able to find them (and not consoled by the knowledge that The Pack is unlikely to return anytime soon), they switch roosts to Xanatos' tower, which seems safe enough since he's a friend now. This resets the Frequency; normally, a Hunted would be present for the game session, but with an extended duration, the Hunted only poses a threat to them until the logical cutoff point that said Hunted doesn't know where to find them anymore.

Also, don't forget - Hunted is worth more points not only for power level, but intent (Watched is a form of Hunted).

[Robyn]

Up until the climactic confrontation at Avalon the series gave a strong sense of a major underlying plotline that slowly drew these diverse characters, incidents and conflicts together as it was gradually revealed.

After that, it seemed more a question of tying up loose ends. A nice touch for those who wondered what became of the various supernaturals encountered during the series, after they met the gargoyles. If you pay attention to the creatures gathering in Oberon's hall during "Reunion", you'll see most of the supernaturals that were featured during the "Avalon tour" journey. This lends credence to the theory that Oberon's will was guiding them; Avalon sent them, like shephards, to round up the errant members of His flock, aiding each of them with resolving the business they had in the mortal world, so they could return home with no guilt.

[Shaft]

:cool: Does she share the opinion that the animation for the ep Seeing isn't Believing to be strange?

I understand that the 52 episodes done in Season 2 had to be done in the same amount of time that the 13 episodes in Season 1 were done in. I am sympathetic with the artistic teams for still having to deliver something on that kind of deadline.



Interesting variant. Not canon of course, but hey, if it works... :D

How much of gargoyle biology and culture was kept?


Not a lot. "Francis" is to date, unique- and the character's "schtick" was inspired by Gargoyles, but no attempt was made to work in the rest of the continuity.

Francis conveniently has only a few, vague memories that extend back to what he believes is the medeival era (but who knows, it could be the Turakian age...). He doesn't know how he turned to a statue, but he first regained his awareness in the Victorian era. He remained mostly immobile for the better part of a century, observing this new society from a very limited vantage point and occasionally "awakened" for an isolated adventure over the years, until a little over a year ago in continuity when he began having the ability to be mobile most of the time. He's still adjusting to modern day society, and true to genre, there has yet to be a good picture of him that hits the media. Most Hudson city residents believe him to be a legend ("The Gargoyle"), or some kind of flying sewer mutant freak.

Appearance-wise, he has Goliath's build, but his face has a more pronounced muzzle, like Brooklyn.



His wings keep him aloft with Handwavium, I presume. ;) Does he gain mass when stone?

He bought gliding, so it works and it looks cool. ;) He has yet to try riding a motorcycle though...

His mass increases. He isn't "coated" in stone, nor does he leave rocks shards when he transforms. The special effect is an enchantment the same way that a Petrification spell would work (the immobilization, bought as a temporary Transform, is a side effect of his triggered heal-self only that is activated when he sleeps).



Sounds like an interesting hobby. Does he have a psych lim or something on it?

It's more of a quirk, but the player really handles it well.

He stands out a lot since it's the closest thing to an alien PC that you can have in a Dark Champions game without breaking the feel of the genre.

[Shaft]

This site has answers about Gargoyles directly from the creative team:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/index.php

[BlackSword]

His wings keep him aloft with Handwavium, I presume. ;) Does he gain mass when stone?
Why is handwavium a roadblock? And why continually dismiss everything as handwavium, the argument is confusing at best since we are discussing modern fantasy. Do you ask mages in your games how they cast fireballs or magic missile? None of your superheroes fly?

For getting over the 'only at night' thing. I like the change up for the character in Shaft's game. Make the gargoyle vulnerable only when they sleep, and allow the character to determine when they sleep. Sticking to original script, if most of the players are gargoyles then play it like the show, adventures happen at night. :) If split between humans and gargoyles then humans get some alone time during the day, though they may be limited at night depending on their sleep schedules. If its like the show and there is only one human, then depending on the game setup, bluebook the day time. I have one group that plays four hours every Sunday, each game session could be a single night, and the human(s) could write what they want to do in the day time during the week.

[FenrisUlf]

I loved Gargoyles, it had some of the best characters ever done on TV, be it animated or live-action.

Especially David Xanatos, who would make an amazing villain (or even a hero! -- hey, why not?) in a Champs campaign. Rich, brilliant, well-connected, a skilled fighter and of course there's the battlearmor, and he has a great motivation: he wants to be immortal. That and he had some moral standards and lines he just wouldn't cross. A truly great villain by any standards.

[Midas]

Why is handwavium a roadblock? And why continually dismiss everything as handwavium, the argument is confusing at best since we are discussing modern fantasy. Do you ask mages in your games how they cast fireballs or magic missile? None of your superheroes fly?



:) Tisn't. Personally, I try to use Handwavium and Unobtanium as little as possible, but that is a personal preference. ;)

There are three levels of handwavium use.

If the setup is: "It just works that way." What you call modern fantasy.

Or you can use handwavium/unobtainium alloys for a pulp feel: "They stay aloft using the eighth ray, which has anti-gravitational properties."

Or you can go with a handwavium/obscurantium alloy: "Donno. The laws of physics say what you see is impossible. Who are you gonna believe, your science text book or your own eyes? BTW, make a physics roll to see if you can come up with a hypothesis."

What I'm getting at is that it depends a lot on the campaign background. Like the campaign setup rules in the core rules that give a list of 1 to 5 scales on realism/theaticality etc, I'm suggesting a that the ref needs to set out before hand, perhaps on a 1 to5 scale, how much real world science matters. Not at all through if you can't justify it in some scientific theory, it won't happen. Obviously, it would be very difficult to run a champions or Dark Champions with a "five" setting: But OTOH, I find a "one" campaign to be disorientating. If physical laws are only suggestions, how can one make a rational deduction?

Put it this way: Suppose you are a martial artist chasing a garg villian. You first find your "burglar," some guy in a weird reptile costume, with an eight foot wingspan. You chase him to the roof, where he jumps off and disappears. Flight? Teleport? Invisibility? Tunneling? Going with the wings, presume flight and a good stealth roll. Next time you catch up to him, he is too close to run away and disappear, and you close for melee. Wouldn't it be a good assumption that your opponent weighs almost nothing? Or else the wings wouldn't support him. Boy are you in for a surprise when you try a martial throw! :eg:

See, the default setting is "He has wings, therefore he can fly (GLIDE!), and he looks massive, so therefore he is." But some times this causes doubletakes.

The reason I am "picking" on Gargoyles is that I am familiar with the setting. I haven't read Marvel since they killed off Jean Gray (the first time), and could never get into the DC universe. (I gave up on AC when they went to $5 an issue :mad: )

I guess I could be going on about Marvel's Vulture for the same arguement. (It that green turkey still in Marvelverse? We were discussing the other day the lamest villian in comicdom, and Vulture won) :idjit:

Midas

[Robyn]

Or you can go with a handwavium/obscurantium alloy: "Donno. The laws of physics say what you see is impossible. Who are you gonna believe, your science text book or your own eyes? BTW, make a physics roll to see if you can come up with a hypothesis."

I prefer this approach, though it may have something to do with running a campaign where discovering the true laws underlying reality is a core theme (mystery).


Obviously, it would be very difficult to run a champions or Dark Champions with a "five" setting

Well, since Dark Champions is "street-level" heroics, it would probably be easier than running a traditional Champions game.

[Shaft]

For the record, I never thought for a second that you were dissing "Handwavium", Midas. ;) I like the name (though I like unobtanium even better).

[Shaft]

Well, since Dark Champions is "street-level" heroics, it would probably be easier than running a traditional Champions game.

Yes, but adding a Gargoyle into the mix caps you at 3, I think. :D

[Midas]

I loved Gargoyles, it had some of the best characters ever done on TV, be it animated or live-action.

Especially David Xanatos, who would make an amazing villain (or even a hero! -- hey, why not?) in a Champs campaign. Rich, brilliant, well-connected, a skilled fighter and of course there's the battlearmor, and he has a great motivation: he wants to be immortal. That and he had some moral standards and lines he just wouldn't cross. A truly great villain by any standards.

I liked his obvious joy in life. DZ always seemed to be having fun, even in the grimmest situations. As far as the hero/villian question goes: He flips a coin each week: "Who am I taking for a role model this week? Bruce or Lex?" :sneaky:

Demona was my preferred villian. There was a list of, mostly humorous, character's worst nightmares (Like Elisa's mother -voice by Nichele Nichols- being only able to say "Hailing Frequencies Open"). But Demona's was "None -her life is a nightmare." Of all the stuff that happened to her, think about just this one subplot: She waited a thousand years to see Goliath again, and he up and left her for Elisa. She moved in with Thailog, who had Delilah on the side. And that was just two years out of 1000!

Midas

[Midas]

For the record, I never thought for a second that you were dissing "Handwavium", Midas. ;) I like the name (though I like unobtanium even better).

Thanks. :)

Blacksword does have a point, I was harping on the question. His response was a fair one, "what's your point Midas?" So I gave a fair answer.

It just occured to me, If The Vulture was a problem, what did I think of Submariner's method of flight? :eek:

Classic Golden Age: Handwavium by the shovel full. And there is nothing wrong with that, if you accept it as part of the story. Almost any story or scenario you care to name takes a certain amount of it for the meta story: "Just go with it. Otherwise the story won't work." For example, in City of Stone, NYC had thousands of security cameras at the time. Did no one think to check what had gone on during that night?

I think Handwavium and Unobtanium are mentioned on Wiki. Handwavium refers either to a dismissive flick of the wrist or an Obi-wan hypnotic pass "This is a perfectly normal event, nothing unusual at all." Unobtanium refers to something that would be prefectly possible if some impossible item were on hand. For ex: FTL would be perfectly possible, if you had some kind of energy that has no mass. "But..." :D <Ref grin>

AFAIK, Obscurantium (an unusual application of some obscure scientific principle) is my own, but I prolly saw the word somewhere.

Midas

[Shaft]

At the risk of going even more off topic, I'm a fan of the Vulture, but that's because I mostly know him as a cheap flyer in HeroClix. I've never read a story with him in it in the comics. I vaguely recall him appearing in one of the old 60s Filmation(?) cartoons, I think, but that could be a vague memory of a traumatic flashback from a past life. ;)

[BlackSword]

Thanks. :)

Blacksword does have a point, I was harping on the question. His response was a fair one, "what's your point Midas?" So I gave a fair answer.

Well you did have a point that I agree with, which is to make the physics of the game world consistent. I just dislike the terms 'handwavium/unobtanium' because they seem to limit the discussion to real world physics and dismiss anything outside of real world physics as BS as opposed to imagination.

If gargoyles are as heavy or heavier than humans, then the GM has to decide, are gargoyles aided by some sort of magic, are the laws of physics slightly different so that humans could use smaller gliders to descend at the same rate. Its obvious by Xanatos' body armor that physics or technology is different in Gargoyle land then the real world.

[FenrisUlf]

I liked his obvious joy in life. DZ always seemed to be having fun, even in the grimmest situations. As far as the hero/villian question goes: He flips a coin each week: "Who am I taking for a role model this week? Bruce or Lex?" :sneaky:

His supporting cast was great as well. Owen/Puck (man but was that a surprise when I first saw it), the perfect cool, calm, collected assistant. I get the idea that Owen could have face down Doctor Destroyer without losing his cool. And Doctor Savarius, the mad scientist's mad scientist. Next to him, Herr Doktor Kreuger and Doc Doom are just general practicioners

And of course, Fox. The one woman in the world who was an equal match for Xanatos. I really liked how the writers gave them a relationship as equals, which they were. That and the fact that Fox and Xanatos really, truly, loved each other. They must have had one of the most stable and trusting marriages in all TV-dom.

And I loved the episode where Fox gets the Eye of Odin and turns into a snarling werewolf. They gave her a reason for being savage and mindless that made far more sense than the usual "but werewolves are evil monsters!" one (her metabolism ran so fast that if she wasn't constantly eating Fox was literally insane from hunger pains; she could starve to death within six hours or so if she didn't get enough to eat). And Xanatos should be glad they did cure her. Even if she hadn't starved, just think how embarassing it would be to have to bail your wife out of the dog pound a few days every month.


Demona was my preferred villian. There was a list of, mostly humorous, character's worst nightmares (Like Elisa's mother -voice by Nichele Nichols- being only able to say "Hailing Frequencies Open"). But Demona's was "None -her life is a nightmare." Of all the stuff that happened to her, think about just this one subplot: She waited a thousand years to see Goliath again, and he up and left her for Elisa. She moved in with Thailog, who had Delilah on the side. And that was just two years out of 1000!

Midas

Yeah, poor Demona. The writers could nmake you feel pity for her one moment and then hate her guts the next. That was some fine writing for a cartoon; I wish it were more common.

[Robyn]

Well you did have a point that I agree with, which is to make the physics of the game world consistent. I just dislike the terms 'handwavium/unobtanium' because they seem to limit the discussion to real world physics and dismiss anything outside of real world physics as BS as opposed to imagination.

If gargoyles are as heavy or heavier than humans, then the GM has to decide, are gargoyles aided by some sort of magic, are the laws of physics slightly different so that humans could use smaller gliders to descend at the same rate. Its obvious by Xanatos' body armor that physics or technology is different in Gargoyle land then the real world.

A thought on all this - sometimes the argument against being able to find any consistency in imaginary physics is that they have no real-world equivalent. The question to ask, when this comes up, is why we find the physics of the real world to be consistent? Do we have nothing better than "well, they exist, so they must be consistent"? Once we realize how we measure consistency (as a framework, not by specific laws we become aware of), it becomes possible to extend that logic through any laws we theorize, imaginary or not.

[shadow_walker]

I miss gargoyles.

[Robyn]

I miss gargoyles.

Console yourself with the comics (http://www.slgcomic.com/product-exec/product_id/94/nm/Gargoyles_1).

[Lucius]

A thought on all this - sometimes the argument against being able to find any consistency in imaginary physics is that they have no real-world equivalent. The question to ask, when this comes up, is why we find the physics of the real world to be consistent? Do we have nothing better than "well, they exist, so they must be consistent"? Once we realize how we measure consistency (as a framework, not by specific laws we become aware of), it becomes possible to extend that logic through any laws we theorize, imaginary or not.

Right. So, is light a wave or a particle?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary sees no reason it can't be both, but it can conveniently believe one thing at one end and another thing at the other end.

[Robyn]

Right. So, is light a wave or a particle?

I typed up a few sentences about science still being in the development process, but realized before I finished that it would need to go into how "popular belief" might be wrong, and deleted it all because I wasn't about to open that can of worms ;)

[JmOz]

Small Tangent

As part of my centurians there is a character named Gargoyle, inspired by Goliath, all because of the cape look, seriously, that was so cool I HAD to make a character

He has three forms

Human

Gargoyle (A brick with wings basicaly, OIHID)

Stone Statue (+15/+15 Hardened Armor, Visible, 0 DCV Concentration through 0ut, Not aware, OIHID + 1d6 Healing basicaly same lims linked to Armor)

[Midas]

At the risk of going even more off topic, I'm a fan of the Vulture, but that's because I mostly know him as a cheap flyer in HeroClix. I've never read a story with him in it in the comics. I vaguely recall him appearing in one of the old 60s Filmation(?) cartoons, I think, but that could be a vague memory of a traumatic flashback from a past life. ;)

Wanna start a lamest villian thread in the champions section? :)

NEway, he was an early sparing partner of Spidey, when Spiderman was only slightly stronger and faster than human norm. Vulure was a bank robber who had OIF (foulable) wings, the Glide power, a few levels with movement (Spidey didn't want to face him in the open because the vulture had the advantage), and a gun. by coincidence, old spidermans have been a freeby with the local sunday paper.

That's it. He soared around and stuck up targets of opportunity. :rolleyes:

Midas

[Midas]

Small Tangent

As part of my centurians there is a character named Gargoyle, inspired by Goliath, all because of the cape look, seriously, that was so cool I HAD to make a character

He has three forms

Human

Gargoyle (A brick with wings basicaly, OIHID)

Stone Statue (+15/+15 Hardened Armor, Visible, 0 DCV Concentration through 0ut, Not aware, OIHID + 1d6 Healing basicaly same lims linked to Armor)

Interesting character. :)

0 DCV concentration is a good way to simulate the stone sleep.

To drift the thread in another direction: Way back in 1st edition Champs, along with Marksman, Flare, et al, was a character called "Gargoyle." The writer kept the character when the comics line spun off, so we know next to nothing about the character. Anybody know anything about that original champions character?

Midas

[Shaft]

Wanna start a lamest villian thread in the champions section? :)


I have listed Vulture in the Lamest characters thread. I'll post my thoughts there.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1247012&postcount=118