Feats...

[DarkGreen]

I'm starting this thread to encourage people to post "feats". We all know what they are in the DnD context: small special things that exceptional characters can do that normal characters can't. I've been writing a collection of them recently and figured I'd start a thread. I have a bunch but will post slowly to keep from making a mondo thread at the very beginning (which means nobody will read it :) )

Examples:

Weapon Master – 9 pts
A Weapon Master can instantly use any weapon or object he picks up in combat. Even the most exotic weapon is familiar in his hands. The only thing that may slow him down in using a weapon would be a complex weapon who’s very function is not clear (such as a musket, which requires multiple non-obvious steps to use), but once figured out even that weapon will not present combat penalties.
Combat Effect: The Weapon Master never suffers OCV penalties due to lack of weapon familiarity.
Prerequisites: none
Power construction: 3 PSLs vs weapon non-familiarity penalties (9 pts)

Battledancer -- 12 or 16 pts
A battledancer is a master of the parry and dodge. He is always moving and dodging, meeting every opponent’s blows with parries and constantly moving.
Combat effect: The character is assumed to abort to dodge or block at the beginning of each segment after acting. The character should define whether this is usually blocking or dodging (assumes dodging if nothing is indicated).
Prerequisites: SPD of 3 or 4
Power construction: +3 SPD, only for dodging/blocking (no extra half or zero phase actions, so no reallotment of levels) (-1.5) : 12 pts or +4 SPD with same limitations: 16


-DG

[CourtFool]

And all this time I have been buying Weapon Familiarity? I think Weapon Master is far too cheap. I am not sure it is appropriate to use PSL for something that already has a specific skill for it. I would take a look at the WF list and see what it would cost to buy all the WF in your campaign and then adjust that up or down as you feel appropriate. Call it Weapon Familiarity (All Weapons).

I also think Battle Dancer is too cheap. Any SPD adjustment needs to be carefully monitored. Why not some nice Defensive Combat Levels? +3 DCV Special Effect: Always bobbing and weaving.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by CourtFool
And all this time I have been buying Weapon Familiarity? I think Weapon Master is far too cheap. I am not sure it is appropriate to use PSL for something that already has a specific skill for it. I would take a look at the WF list and see what it would cost to buy all the WF in your campaign and then adjust that up or down as you feel appropriate. Call it Weapon Familiarity (All Weapons).

I also think Battle Dancer is too cheap. Any SPD adjustment needs to be carefully monitored. Why not some nice Defensive Combat Levels? +3 DCV Special Effect: Always bobbing and weaving.

WeaponFam: Your characters typically have more than 9pts of weapon familiarities????!!!! Holy weapon selection batman!
... Seriously though, most characters in our campaign spend 2-4 points on weapon fams. 9 points for all seemed reasonable to all the GMs, and it can't be TOO abusive because nobodies ever bothered to take it.

Battledancer: Hmm... the +3DCV you propose instead is actually CHEAPER than the feat you're saying is too cheap, at least if limited to be similar in applicability (only during non-attacking segments). I guess that's what I was comparing to in order to see if it was too cheap or not. The only time I could see someone wanting it is if they had a really good OCV and wanted to use the blocking mechanism instead of the dodging mechanism to represent being hard to hit due to parrying. Given that it costs the same or more than a flat out +3 DCV and blocking requires opposed skill rolls with increasing penalties I don't see the problem. The only real impact is that a high OCV type character using the block mechanism is going to get to hit back first no matter what his DEX. Given the relatively high cost, again, I have no problem with that. Can you give an example of a synergy that is giving you concern?

-DG

PS: In our campaign martial arts are highly limited (to monks and certain ethnic classes), so people wouldn't typically have Battledancer stacked with Martial Dodge available.

PPS: At 100 pts Battledance with Martial Dodge, SPD 3 and high dex would be half of someone's character!

[The Mad GM]

What about Normal Characteristic Maximums? If you go over 4, don't you need to pay double, or am I misremembering something about Powers and Stats...

[CourtFool]

Now that I think of it, I have not seen too many people take more than 4 points worth of WF; Common Melee and Common Missile. It is your game afterall, you are free to do as you please. I simply disagree that it should only cost 9 points to use any weapon in my campaign.

I was not suggesting any limitation on the DCV at all.

Maybe I misunderstood the rules somewhere. I thought the +3 DCV from Dodge remained until your next phase. If it did, you would not need extra actions to dodge. Blocking would be another matter, however, I think a straight across +3 DCV is simpler mechanically and the special effect would still give you the same feel. If the opponent misses, the player can decide whether it was a dodge or parry. You also would not have to worry about someone being much faster than you since you do not have to count which segments you can Dodge or Block. Even if they have a SPD 12, you still get your +3 bonus.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by The Mad GM
What about Normal Characteristic Maximums? If you go over 4, don't you need to pay double, or am I misremembering something about Powers and Stats...

I'm not really sure how that applies to talents/powers that use characteristics to simulate powers. Does lightning reflexes double in value if it takes your "initiative DEX" above the max? I'll post a question to Steve on that one.

-DG

[nblade]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
I'm not really sure how that applies to talents/powers that use characteristics to simulate powers. Does lightning reflexes double in value if it takes your "initiative DEX" above the max? I'll post a question to Steve on that one.

-DG

From what I can remember any Characteristic brought as a power is not effected by NCM. So in the case of lightning reflexes, it never doubles. Of course because of this issue (also sometimes called "The Defender Exploit"), a GM needs to carefully monitor any characteristic brought as a power.

[DarkGreen]

The hero book anticipates our question. Page 213, lower left paragraph. Chars bought as powers or talents DON'T suffer from doubling under normal characteristic maxima.

Son of a gun. I never realized that.

-DG

[Vondy]

Originally posted by CourtFool
And all this time I have been buying Weapon Familiarity? I think Weapon Master is far too cheap. I am not sure it is appropriate to use PSL for something that already has a specific skill for it. I would take a look at the WF list and see what it would cost to buy all the WF in your campaign and then adjust that up or down as you feel appropriate. Call it Weapon Familiarity (All Weapons).

I also think Battle Dancer is too cheap. Any SPD adjustment needs to be carefully monitored. Why not some nice Defensive Combat Levels? +3 DCV Special Effect: Always bobbing and weaving.

I think the idea is that the unfamiliar weapon penalty is -3 OCV.

It would cost 9 points to purchase +3 levels versus OCV penalties (not just unfamiliar weapon).

So the weaponmaster spends the 9 points to offest the pens instead of purchasing all the weapon familiarities.

It works for me, but I'm easy.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by D-Man
I think the idea is that the unfamiliar weapon penalty is -3 OCV.

It would cost 9 points to purchase +3 levels versus OCV penalties (not just unfamiliar weapon).

So the weaponmaster spends the 9 points to offest the pens instead of purchasing all the weapon familiarities.

It works for me, but I'm easy.

Are you refering to the Penality Skill Levels? If so, this must be a GM call. I see Penality Skill Levels as applying to Called Shot, Range, Ect.... not something that Already has a place in the system as Weapon Familiarity...

I'm leaving off Firearm type Weapons and have concluded that this would cost roughly 40 points.... I think 9 is REAL REAL CHEAP!!! 1/2 at a MIN is what I'd suggest here....

This can be really powerful as this Character would virtually never be caught without a weapon, and I dont think it should be allowed lightly.

As for the Battle Dancer...well, the 3 levels of DCV would actually cost 15, assuming you want them useful against Ranged attacks also, if not then 9 points for HTH...

I'm not as concerned about this one, although I'd rather see something along the lines Aborting to Dodge, DFC, ect Bonus. In a fantasy campaign, seeing a character with a base DCV of 5, but an Auto bonus of 3 gives them a 8 base....thats dang powerful.

Now that I'm done disagreeing, I like your idea about feets...I hadn't thought about incorporating something like this and now I'll have to work some up myself... Until then lets see somemore!!!

[Nevenall]

I have been working up a few feat-like special skills that could be part of a profession package deal.
So far I've done a few assassin ones.
Some of them you could even make free manuevers that any character with the applicable skill can do.

Silent Kill
Real Cost: 2 points
Darkness (Hearing Group, One Hex)
0 End Cost +1/2
Concentration (0 DCV) -1/2
Instant -1/2
No Range -1/2
Only to silence a kill -1
Requires Skill Roll (Stealth) -1/2

Trained Kill
Real Cost: 5 points
PSL (+4 vs. Targeting, for either Blades or Bows)
Concentration (0 DCV) -1/2
Requires Skill Roll (Stealth) -1/2
Only Against Unaware Opponents -1/2

Sprinting
Real Cost: 4 points
+3” Running
0 End Cost +1/2
Concentration (0 DCV) -1/2
Instant (Must roll every phase) -1/2
Requires Skill Roll (Dex Roll) -1/2

[DarkGreen]

Well... these are sure to draw lots of critique....

=====================================
Off-handed weapon parry – 3 pts
A warrior skilled with off handed weapon parry is able to use a weapon or object in his off hand defensively as well as a normal character can use a shield. An example of this would be cloak-fighting.
Combat Effect: A tiny object (no STR min) gives DCV equivalent to a small shield, a small object (STR min below 5) gives DCV equivalent to a medium shield, and a medium object (STR min 6+) gives DCV as a large shield.
Prerequisites: WF common melee and at least 2 CSLs
Power construction: Bought as spending the points to reduce the STR minimum on the shield by one level, otherwise just a change of special effects. Difference between 15 and 12 points for large shield is most expensive.

Expert Duelist – 5 pts
An expert duelist can draw his foe out, causing them to overextend and reveal key points of attack. He also is an expert at catching an opponent off guard and off balance to deliver vicious strikes.
Combat Effect: When the character successfully blocks an opponent’s attack he can also attempt to draw them out and learn their fighting style. This increases the deadliness of his strikes.
Prerequisites:
Power contruction: Find Weakness with chosen weapon, 13- (14), may only make rolls in same segment as a succesful block (opposed RSR plus limited use) –1.75 [Note that a half phase is required to be available, so this does not combine synergistically with battledancer except on segments when the character has a normal phase. For example if the enemy goes first in a phase and the Expert Duelist is blocking already and blocks successfully, then the Duelist can use a half phase to make a FW roll and still have half a phase left.]
=============================================

Before I get flamed too bad let me point out that the off-hand weapon parry basically just lets people change special effects. In hero system there isn't any fundamental attack advantage to having a weapon in the off hand UNLESS someone buys ambidex (which is expensive) so that they could then choose reasonably which weapon to attack with. I consider that insignificant.

-DG

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Well... these are sure to draw lots of critique....

=====================================
Off-handed weapon parry – 3 pts
A warrior skilled with off handed weapon parry is able to use a weapon or object in his off hand defensively as well as a normal character can use a shield. An example of this would be cloak-fighting.
Combat Effect: A tiny object (no STR min) gives DCV equivalent to a small shield, a small object (STR min below 5) gives DCV equivalent to a medium shield, and a medium object (STR min 6+) gives DCV as a large shield.
Prerequisites: WF common melee and at least 2 CSLs
Power construction: Bought as spending the points to reduce the STR minimum on the shield by one level, otherwise just a change of special effects. Difference between 15 and 12 points for large shield is most expensive.

Expert Duelist – 5 pts
An expert duelist can draw his foe out, causing them to overextend and reveal key points of attack. He also is an expert at catching an opponent off guard and off balance to deliver vicious strikes.
Combat Effect: When the character successfully blocks an opponent’s attack he can also attempt to draw them out and learn their fighting style. This increases the deadliness of his strikes.
Prerequisites:
Power contruction: Find Weakness with chosen weapon, 13- (14), may only make rolls in same segment as a succesful block (opposed RSR plus limited use) –1.75 [Note that a half phase is required to be available, so this does not combine synergistically with battledancer except on segments when the character has a normal phase. For example if the enemy goes first in a phase and the Expert Duelist is blocking already and blocks successfully, then the Duelist can use a half phase to make a FW roll and still have half a phase left.]
=============================================

Before I get flamed too bad let me point out that the off-hand weapon parry basically just lets people change special effects. In hero system there isn't any fundamental attack advantage to having a weapon in the off hand UNLESS someone buys ambidex (which is expensive) so that they could then choose reasonably which weapon to attack with. I consider that insignificant.

-DG

I would disagree with the way you built both of these. <shrug> Your campaign I guess. My way on the first one would be +X DCV, OIF Off Hand Weapon. Comes out at 3.3 points per level.

The second one is not legal as built, since an attack action (which includes block) ends your phase. I would allow it if you said "Only on phase following successful block (-1/2)", and I would also not give it any additional limitation points.

Just MNSHO, but you seem to be giving alot away for very low amount of points. These are supposed to be feats out of the range of normal humans, but at the 3 point range, even a bar room brawler could afford the first one and it is much more efficient than the equivalent skill levels.

- Ernie

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Well... these are sure to draw lots of critique....

=====================================
Off-handed weapon parry – 3 pts
A warrior skilled with off handed weapon parry is able to use a weapon or object in his off hand defensively as well as a normal character can use a shield. An example of this would be cloak-fighting.
Combat Effect: A tiny object (no STR min) gives DCV equivalent to a small shield, a small object (STR min below 5) gives DCV equivalent to a medium shield, and a medium object (STR min 6+) gives DCV as a large shield.
Prerequisites: WF common melee and at least 2 CSLs
Power construction: Bought as spending the points to reduce the STR minimum on the shield by one level, otherwise just a change of special effects. Difference between 15 and 12 points for large shield is most expensive.

Expert Duelist – 5 pts
An expert duelist can draw his foe out, causing them to overextend and reveal key points of attack. He also is an expert at catching an opponent off guard and off balance to deliver vicious strikes.
Combat Effect: When the character successfully blocks an opponent’s attack he can also attempt to draw them out and learn their fighting style. This increases the deadliness of his strikes.
Prerequisites:
Power contruction: Find Weakness with chosen weapon, 13- (14), may only make rolls in same segment as a succesful block (opposed RSR plus limited use) –1.75 [Note that a half phase is required to be available, so this does not combine synergistically with battledancer except on segments when the character has a normal phase. For example if the enemy goes first in a phase and the Expert Duelist is blocking already and blocks successfully, then the Duelist can use a half phase to make a FW roll and still have half a phase left.]
=============================================

Before I get flamed too bad let me point out that the off-hand weapon parry basically just lets people change special effects. In hero system there isn't any fundamental attack advantage to having a weapon in the off hand UNLESS someone buys ambidex (which is expensive) so that they could then choose reasonably which weapon to attack with. I consider that insignificant.

-DG

Regarding off-hand parry, I allow those with 2 - weapon fighting or ambidexterity to get a +1DCV for an "offhand" weapon not used to attack with in a given phase - think it came from 4e FH...

[sbarron]

Originally posted by eepjr24
Just MNSHO, but you seem to be giving alot away for very low amount of points. These are supposed to be feats out of the range of normal humans, but at the 3 point range, even a bar room brawler could afford the first one and it is much more efficient than the equivalent skill levels.- Ernie

I think of these feats being like talents and powers. Just because your character can afford to pay for them, doesn't mean you can get them. All of them would require GM approval.

[Talon]

Don't forget that unlike D&D, these don't all have to be combat-oriented. :)

Ties of Honor: Detect Truthful Statements 18- (Range, Sense) (17 Active Points); Only for sensing heartfelt oaths (-1), total cost 8 points.

This could represent a paladin's ability to know when someone was making an honest oath -- a good way to avoid "lawful stupid" syndrome, without being a perfect polygraph (which would pose a lot of plot headaches for the GM).

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Regarding off-hand parry, I allow those with 2 - weapon fighting or ambidexterity to get a +1DCV for an "offhand" weapon not used to attack with in a given phase - think it came from 4e FH...

5th edition has an "off hand weapon familiarity" that costs 1 pt and provides +1 DCV for people with a weapon in each hand, see pg 54, note 4.

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DarkGreen
[B]Well... these are sure to draw lots of critique....

=====================================
Off-handed weapon parry – 3 pts
A warrior skilled with off handed weapon parry is able to use a weapon or object in his off hand defensively as well as a normal character can use a shield. An example of this would be cloak-fighting.
Combat Effect: A tiny object (no STR min) gives DCV equivalent to a small shield, a small object (STR min below 5) gives DCV equivalent to a medium shield, and a medium object (STR min 6+) gives DCV as a large shield.
Prerequisites: WF common melee and at least 2 CSLs
Power construction: Bought as spending the points to reduce the STR minimum on the shield by one level, otherwise just a change of special effects. Difference between 15 and 12 points for large shield is most expensive.

Expert Duelist – 5 pts
An expert duelist can draw his foe out, causing them to overextend and reveal key points of attack. He also is an expert at catching an opponent off guard and off balance to deliver vicious strikes.
Combat Effect: When the character successfully blocks an opponent’s attack he can also attempt to draw them out and learn their fighting style. This increases the deadliness of his strikes.
Prerequisites:
Power contruction: Find Weakness with chosen weapon, 13- (14), may only make rolls in same segment as a succesful block (opposed RSR plus limited use) –1.75 [Note that a half phase is required to be available, so this does not combine synergistically with battledancer except on segments when the character has a normal phase. For example if the enemy goes first in a phase and the Expert Duelist is blocking already and blocks successfully, then the Duelist can use a half phase to make a FW roll and still have half a phase left.]
=============================================

Dont forget that WF : Off Hand grants a plus 1 DCV when equiped with the weapon....Also, in creating your weapons, certain ones can possess DCV Mods....take a swordsmas for example, he can be wielding a long sword in his right hand and using his off hand to hold a fencer's spear for parrying purposes...Make the Spear a DCV mod if being used Defensively (no attacking with it)....

Dang looks like someone posted the WF : Off HAnd while I was typing this....just go and steal my thunder!

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by eepjr24
I would disagree with the way you built both of these. <shrug> Your campaign I guess. My way on the first one would be +X DCV, OIF Off Hand Weapon. Comes out at 3.3 points per level.

The second one is not legal as built, since an attack action (which includes block) ends your phase. I would allow it if you said "Only on phase following successful block (-1/2)", and I would also not give it any additional limitation points.

Just MNSHO, but you seem to be giving alot away for very low amount of points. These are supposed to be feats out of the range of normal humans, but at the 3 point range, even a bar room brawler could afford the first one and it is much more efficient than the equivalent skill levels.

- Ernie

Well, on the first one you're charging the character more than just buying some 3 pt CSLs which can go to OCV or DCV, AND if he bought levels instead they would stack with a shield. I think you're overestimating the capability of shield expert. All it really does is change the special effect on the shield (look at how shield is built pg 334) to define the OAF as a weapon. I've lowered the weight a little to give it some actual value for the points. Keep in mind that this is not DnD, HAVING A SECOND WEAPON PROVIDES NO PRIMA FACIAE ADVANTAGE TO THE CHARACTER. They would still need to use rapid attack to take more than one swing and they can already do that with one weapon. Basically it's just special effects with almost no game effect. The way the rules are structured now nobody ever builds a two-weaponed character because shields are so efficient, and yet in fiction the two weaponed characters are all baaaad. I was trying to bring in some of that flavor and realized that there isn't really any reason for this to cost many points. Frankly I think comparing changing the special effect on a shield as equivalent to selling DCV levels cheap is poor reasoning.

And your second comment is, forgive the bluntness, silly. Nothing happens after an attack action. The character spends his first half phase on the FW roll and then tries to block. If he fails to block or if the enemy he rolled FW against does not attack him the FW roll is mooted.

-DG

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Don't forget that unlike D&D, these don't all have to be combat-oriented. :)

Ties of Honor: Detect Truthful Statements 18- (Range, Sense) (17 Active Points); Only for sensing heartfelt oaths (-1), total cost 8 points.

This could represent a paladin's ability to know when someone was making an honest oath -- a good way to avoid "lawful stupid" syndrome, without being a perfect polygraph (which would pose a lot of plot headaches for the GM).

I'm glad you made it only for heartfelt oaths! In my campaign I might also not make it a sense, just to require the player to remind the GM when he is detecting!

Could be plot dangerous, but many of my corrupt types are rich enough that they would take umbrage at being asked to swear an oath :)

I'd totally allow that one.

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Keep in mind that this is not DnD, HAVING A SECOND WEAPON PROVIDES NO PRIMA FACIAE ADVANTAGE TO THE CHARACTER. They would still need to use rapid attack to take more than one swing and they can already do that with one weapon. Basically it's just special effects with almost no game effect. The way the rules are structured now nobody ever builds a two-weaponed character because shields are so efficient, and yet in fiction the two weaponed characters are all baaaad.
-DG

You sure? I've seen a Two Weapon Fighting Character with Rapid attack HTH....I've seen him destroy a Fully armored of virtually equal power. Dont underestimate the 2 Weapon Character! Thats when he get ya!

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Don't forget that unlike D&D, these don't all have to be combat-oriented. :)

Ties of Honor: Detect Truthful Statements 18- (Range, Sense) (17 Active Points); Only for sensing heartfelt oaths (-1), total cost 8 points.

This could represent a paladin's ability to know when someone was making an honest oath -- a good way to avoid "lawful stupid" syndrome, without being a perfect polygraph (which would pose a lot of plot headaches for the GM).

I agree with DarkGreen in this that I see no problem...the only tweak I might suggest is No Conscious Controll....that allows GM controll over the balance, and give a little flavor to the ability.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
5th edition has an "off hand weapon familiarity" that costs 1 pt and provides +1 DCV for people with a weapon in each hand, see pg 54, note 4.

-DG

I require this familiarity as well, been running some FH since 5e came out, seems the off-hand familiar may have incorporated the 4e FH rule I'm thinking of? Either that, or how I'm doing it just happens to work out just like the rules provide :)

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by eepjr24
I would disagree with the way you built both of these. <shrug> Your campaign I guess. My way on the first one would be +X DCV, OIF Off Hand Weapon. Comes out at 3.3 points per level.


Probably would have an additional lim - only vs. HtH/Melee attacks (-1/2 lim?) - since normal DCV levels apply vs all attacks but this seems directed toward melee fighting (though perhaps not?).

[slaughterj]

I like the idea of these sorts of "feats" for certain kinds of campaigns. While I generally run swords-&-sorcery (darker, deadlier, less magic) or "typical" fantasy-style campaigns, I've long thought of running a "Hawk the Slayer" type of FH campaign, where people could buy AutoFire for their archers, and other such "feats"/powers/talents, making for larger-than-life abilities, but of course the risks/challenges would be commensurate.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
You sure? I've seen a Two Weapon Fighting Character with Rapid attack HTH....I've seen him destroy a Fully armored of virtually equal power. Dont underestimate the 2 Weapon Character! Thats when he get ya!

Gradon-

My point isn't that they can't be deadly, just that they don't gain much from having the second weapon. Let me try to illustrate (with a little help from some friends of R.A. Salvatore):

Guy 1: Drizzt Do'urden in his younger days
Two-weapon fighting (10 points) and a scimitar in each hand.
Requires a rapid attack to get more than one shot off, full phase, 1/2 DCV, etc. Gets two attacks at full OCV and takes -2 on all attacks for each attack after the second. Assume that he has Off hand weapon fam for a +1 DCV (1 pt)
Result: 2 attacks at full OCV, +1 DCV - cost 11 pts

Guy 2: Bruenor the dwarf in a battle craze
Spent 12 points on PSLs with sweep (all weapons) for a 4 OCV offset. Can attack at same penalties 3 times a round before getting minuses, and has a hand free for a large shield.
Result: 3 attacks at full OCV, +3 DCV - cost 12 pts

You can adjust those as you see fit (Bruenor can get 2 attacks and +3 DCV for only 6 points and better Drizzt on 5 less points. He could spend those on rapid attack and get his half move back, or spend it on more DCV and be WAY ahead of the Drow.)

AND the guy who is using two weapons is universally worse off when not sweeping. When not sweeping a guy with two weapons who PAID EXTRA POINTS for off handed fam is still inferior to someone with a medium or better shield in their off hand. This is probably why pretty much every PC I see who has the option (i.e. not precluded by special limitations) carries a large shield.

The Off-handed weapon parry ability is to offset this a little. Note that the poor unfortunate still has to have ambidex if he wants to reasonably attack with his off hand. I view it as basically 3 points to look cool and occasionally do something cool and flashy (like having a weapon at-hand after a disarm). I think having a cost comparable to a skill is about right, and it works out from power construction as well.

Cheers,

-DG

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by DarkGreen

Guy 2: Bruenor the dwarf in a battle craze
Spent 12 points on PSLs with sweep (all weapons) for a 4 OCV offset. Can attack at same penalties 3 times a round before getting minuses, and has a hand free for a large shield.
Result: 3 attacks at full OCV, +3 DCV - cost 12 pts


Yikes! Remind me to never ever allow Penalty Skill Levels in my games. :eek:

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by CourtFool
Yikes! Remind me to never ever allow Penalty Skill Levels in my games. :eek:

I understand your point DarkGreen, but I must agree with this...I will not allow PSL to offset anything more than Range and/or Called Shot with a +2 MAX.....balence issue in my eyes...but you do make a good point.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
I understand your point DarkGreen, but I must agree with this...I will not allow PSL to offset anything more than Range and/or Called Shot with a +2 MAX.....balence issue in my eyes...but you do make a good point.

That's a pretty good policy. I personally do not typically allow starting characters to have range PSLs better than 2, nor do I allow ANY called shot PSLs. Too effective and unrealistic.

So how do you deal with talents that are just bundled PSLs? Two-weapon fighting is 3 PSLs for off-hand weapon use and 2 PSLs for sweep. Do you let people buy the talent bundled but not the discrete levels?

Of course, if someone has a favored weapon, 2pt OCV levels are almost as efficient :) but it's easier to spot when someone has ten of those vs spotting a few PSLs here and there around the char sheet :)

Cheers,

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
That's a pretty good policy. I personally do not typically allow starting characters to have range PSLs better than 2, nor do I allow ANY called shot PSLs. Too effective and unrealistic.

So how do you deal with talents that are just bundled PSLs? Two-weapon fighting is 3 PSLs for off-hand weapon use and 2 PSLs for sweep. Do you let people buy the talent bundled but not the discrete levels?

Of course, if someone has a favored weapon, 2pt OCV levels are almost as efficient :) but it's easier to spot when someone has ten of those vs spotting a few PSLs here and there around the char sheet :)

Cheers,

-DG
Not sure if I agree with no called shots...I allow it for ranged attackts (bows) to represent skilled characters...yet there are rules, think of it this way...you can get a +2 vs. Called Shot b/c you have modifies practiced, and used YOUR bow for a good time...if you loose it, you loose the Called Shot for a few adventures until you can get the "Sights" on your replacement weapon.

You are correct for TWF...but the difference is that 1/2 DCV. It also brings concept ideas up... someone with 2 weapons SHOULD be able to sweep easier than someone with 1 Weapon, its the nature of the concept. I cant see allowing someone to take PSL specifically for a sweep..why? B/c they're practiced? I dont see the ability to Practice a sweep as appropiate....to many variable occure for me to apply sound judgement as I could with Called shot or Range.

Now as for that Spotting those PSl....introduce those players to your Pimp slap Sweep when ya catch 'em!!!

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton

You are correct for TWF...but the difference is that 1/2 DCV. It also brings concept ideas up... someone with 2 weapons SHOULD be able to sweep easier than someone with 1 Weapon, its the nature of the concept. I cant see allowing someone to take PSL specifically for a sweep..why? B/c they're practiced? I dont see the ability to Practice a sweep as appropiate....to many variable occure for me to apply sound judgement as I could with Called shot or Range.


What are you referring to on "but the difference is that 1/2 DCV" ??

You take 1/2DCV on a sweep or with TWF. And there's no such thing as DCV PSLs so the DCV penalty will always be on someone doing a sweep. (Hmm.. unless they buy DCV levels only to offset 1/2DCV during sweeps (-1/2) )!

And the reason that I outlaw most called shot PSLs for starting characters is that, statistically, called shots are frighteningly efficient. Consider: someone with +8 OCV for calling shots (16 pts with 2 pt levels, 12 pts with PSLs), now take a look at the game effects of hitting the head or vitals every shot. Even at 2 PSLs it's frighteningly efficient (although a slightly more challenging bit of math to analyze).

Cheers,

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
What are you referring to on "but the difference is that 1/2 DCV" ??

You take 1/2DCV on a sweep or with TWF. And there's no such thing as DCV PSLs so the DCV penalty will always be on someone doing a sweep. (Hmm.. unless they buy DCV levels only to offset 1/2DCV during sweeps (-1/2) )!

And the reason that I outlaw most called shot PSLs for starting characters is that, statistically, called shots are frighteningly efficient. Consider: someone with +8 OCV for calling shots (16 pts with 2 pt levels, 12 pts with PSLs), now take a look at the game effects of hitting the head or vitals every shot. Even at 2 PSLs it's frighteningly efficient (although a slightly more challenging bit of math to analyze).

Cheers,

-DG

Ya know I'm not sure what I was referring to but I'm sure I had a good point in mind when I started typing! +8 vs Called shots!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? NO! My answer to that is just NO! I'm going to attempt to forget the concept so I can sleep tonight!! 2 PSL really calls for things like Head and Shoulder shots (-4) which gives a better chance for that head shot...but In a fantasy campaign, most people have their 9-13 covered with armor and a 1d6+1 (Med Bow) attack isn't going to do that much, I avg a 4.5 which bounces off of most things higher than Studded Leather...I CAN aim for the Head but I dont like the odds of the -6 (I also dont allow shots that your OCV can't support ... ie if your base is a 6 and you go for a head shot (-8) this makes you a -2...which per rules is a Zero, I wont allow it...nothing more than a -6 local for you).

[DarkGreen]

Heh. I have one NPC named "Thog" running around my world who has +10 OCV with club, a huge club, and always targets the head. The only common he speaks is "Club to the head", which he says every action right before he hits someone in the noggin.

He's one of the few NPC bad guys my PCs actually giggle about when he shows up. I guess they like him more cause he does normal damage (and thus rarely any body).

One time he had boots of clinging and participated in a siege (he was attacking). That was a mess.

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Heh. I have one NPC named "Thog" running around my world who has +10 OCV with club, a huge club, and always targets the head. The only common he speaks is "Club to the head", which he says every action right before he hits someone in the noggin.

He's one of the few NPC bad guys my PCs actually giggle about when he shows up. I guess they like him more cause he does normal damage (and thus rarely any body).

One time he had boots of clinging and participated in a siege (he was attacking). That was a mess.

-DG

Aaaahhhhh.... there is nothing more memorable about a good world than that one NPC theat everyone loves....wether it loves to hate, loves to laugh at, etc. There is a character that shows up in a Supers games that has evolved in one way or the other with the same GM across the country since the early 80's. Players from across the country and through many many years still cringe at his name....(not going to post it here b/c he might be getting published soon)...why you ask...because for somereason he.... WONT F'N DIE AND STAY DEAD!!!!!!! Teleport him into the middle of the Sun...he comes back in a month or 2.... Create a 4x Hardened vs Desolidfication Transfer HTH attacks to its Body entangle in the core of the earth and put him there....he's back in a Few months....of yeah, and he remember who put him there!!! And he doesnt do anything but Killing attacks......currently, we belive there is a clone machine for him that somehow allows his Soul to be recycled....thus he remembers everything!! HE NEEDS TO DIE!!!!

But we all love the battle he shown up in...b/c we know that this time we have the solution! Wait till I get my hands on him next time...just wait!

[feywulf]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Gradon-

My point isn't that they can't be deadly, just that they don't gain much from having the second weapon. Let me try to illustrate (with a little help from some friends of R.A. Salvatore):

Guy 1: Drizzt Do'urden in his younger days
Two-weapon fighting (10 points) and a scimitar in each hand.
Requires a rapid attack to get more than one shot off, full phase, 1/2 DCV, etc. Gets two attacks at full OCV and takes -2 on all attacks for each attack after the second. Assume that he has Off hand weapon fam for a +1 DCV (1 pt)
Result: 2 attacks at full OCV, +1 DCV - cost 11 pts

Guy 2: Bruenor the dwarf in a battle craze
Spent 12 points on PSLs with sweep (all weapons) for a 4 OCV offset. Can attack at same penalties 3 times a round before getting minuses, and has a hand free for a large shield.
Result: 3 attacks at full OCV, +3 DCV - cost 12 pts

You can adjust those as you see fit (Bruenor can get 2 attacks and +3 DCV for only 6 points and better Drizzt on 5 less points. He could spend those on rapid attack and get his half move back, or spend it on more DCV and be WAY ahead of the Drow.)

AND the guy who is using two weapons is universally worse off when not sweeping. When not sweeping a guy with two weapons who PAID EXTRA POINTS for off handed fam is still inferior to someone with a medium or better shield in their off hand. This is probably why pretty much every PC I see who has the option (i.e. not precluded by special limitations) carries a large shield.

The Off-handed weapon parry ability is to offset this a little. Note that the poor unfortunate still has to have ambidex if he wants to reasonably attack with his off hand. I view it as basically 3 points to look cool and occasionally do something cool and flashy (like having a weapon at-hand after a disarm). I think having a cost comparable to a skill is about right, and it works out from power construction as well.

Cheers,

-DG


If someone is using a large shield as well as a weapon, and probably body armor, you will probably want to check the encumbrance rules. Two weapon fighters tend to use lighter armor and don't use weapons that weigh as much as a large shield. I don't know if the dcv penalty for encumbrance would be applied before or after the halfing of dcv by the sweep maneuver.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by feywulf
If someone is using a large shield as well as a weapon, and probably body armor, you will probably want to check the encumbrance rules. Two weapon fighters tend to use lighter armor and don't use weapons that weigh as much as a large shield. I don't know if the dcv penalty for encumbrance would be applied before or after the halfing of dcv by the sweep maneuver.

Hhhmmm... a large Shield requires a 18 STR Min (thats REAL massive STR there for a Normal) so I'm going with that...thats a 300 kg Max with the shild weighing 7....I'm going to not use sectional armor and go with a full chain mail...thats another 20 kg....estimate 10 kg for equiptment....we're at 37...so without adding the Weight of the stereotypical Axe (weapon weight has always been missing from the Hero rules...never understood that)...thats a -1 to DCV...which with my reading of the rules, applies before the half is preformed....

Good thoughts....but I think I need to actually see Strenght ect. for a character before I can completely agree or disagree with ya.

[CourtFool]

Remind me to never allow my players armor or shields either. :D

[Nevenall]

I know I read some where that Steve based the cost of the Two Weapon Fighting at least partial on the cost of PSL's to counter act the penelties for Sweeping.

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
[B]Well, on the first one you're charging the character more than just buying some 3 pt CSLs which can go to OCV or DCV,


I was going off your original description, which stated:

A warrior skilled with off handed weapon parry is able to use a weapon or object in his off hand defensively as well as a normal character can use a shield.
Combat Effect: A tiny object (no STR min) gives DCV equivalent to a small shield, a small object (STR min below 5) gives DCV equivalent to a medium shield, and a medium object (STR min 6+) gives DCV as a large shield.

This to me says that essentially the small weapon is a shield. Which means it gives DCV versus hth and ranged attacks. Reword it if this was not your intent. However, you cannot buy 3 point levels that apply to DCV versus hth and ranged attacks, and thus my higher cost structure.

Keep in mind that this is not DnD, HAVING A SECOND WEAPON PROVIDES NO PRIMA FACIAE ADVANTAGE TO THE CHARACTER.


Having not played "DnD" since the mid 80's (when I discovered Hero) I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here, since 1st Edition had no rules for two weapon fighting.


They would still need to use rapid attack to take more than one swing and they can already do that with one weapon. Basically it's just special effects with almost no game effect. The way the rules are structured now nobody ever builds a two-weaponed character because shields are so efficient, and yet in fiction the two weaponed characters are all baaaad. I was trying to bring in some of that flavor and realized that there isn't really any reason for this to cost many points.


I am not arguing against making two weapon fighting. I was simply pointing out that your method was exceedingly cheap for the description you provided.


Frankly I think comparing changing the special effect on a shield as equivalent to selling DCV levels cheap is poor reasoning.

And your second comment is, forgive the bluntness, silly.


Frankly I think that stooping to name calling after you asked for feedback is rude. I don't have a personal stake in trashing your constructions, and if you read my other posts I think you will find that I do not troll the boards either. If you do not want constructive feedback in general, please feel free not to ask for it. If you do not like mine specifically, please feel free to ignore it.


Nothing happens after an attack action. The character spends his first half phase on the FW roll and then tries to block. If he fails to block or if the enemy he rolled FW against does not attack him the FW roll is mooted.


I have no problems with your sequence here. However, what you originally stated was:


For example if the enemy goes first in a phase and the Expert Duelist is blocking already and blocks successfully, then the Duelist can use a half phase to make a FW roll and still have half a phase left.


Note that the sequence is reversed. Again, if you change the sequence, my only comment would be that we differ greatly on the amount of limitation that the maneuver is worth.

I made every effort to stay civil in my reply, however if I offended you, you have my apologies. I was simply pointing out what I saw as flaws with the construction of the feats. YMMV, as always, and if it works in your campaign, wonderful.

- Ernie

[Talon]

My solution to the PSL issue is to treat them the same as CSLs when evaluating a character's effectiveness (see my combat rating table at www.shalott.com/hero). That way, a PSL character will have a hard time being better than the other characters, but may be more specialized (and thus have more points to spend elsewhere).

The only way I would allow +8 hit location PSLs is for dramatic effect ("only to pin notes to sleeves", etc.).

[Talon]

Originally posted by eepjr24
Having not played "DnD" since the mid 80's (when I discovered Hero) I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here, since 1st Edition had no rules for two weapon fighting.

Actually, the 1st edition DMG has rules for fighting with two weapons: -2/-4 to attacks, offset by Reaction Bonus (so an 18 DEX character would be 0/-1). Note the tradeoff: in exchange for an extra attack, you lose accuracy on all attacks. Under 5th Edition Hero, you lose accuracy when making two-weapon attacks, but don't get any more attacks than a character with a single weapon could make.

[feywulf]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
Hhhmmm... a large Shield requires a 18 STR Min (thats REAL massive STR there for a Normal) so I'm going with that...thats a 300 kg Max with the shild weighing 7....I'm going to not use sectional armor and go with a full chain mail...thats another 20 kg....estimate 10 kg for equiptment....we're at 37...so without adding the Weight of the stereotypical Axe (weapon weight has always been missing from the Hero rules...never understood that)...thats a -1 to DCV...which with my reading of the rules, applies before the half is preformed....

Good thoughts....but I think I need to actually see Strenght ect. for a character before I can completely agree or disagree with ya.


Weapons with str min cost endurance to use based on the strength minimum. It is logical that other equipment with a str min would also cost END. The large shield with an 18 str min will cost 2 END to use per phase.

It may be easier on the book keeping to make a house rule that using equipment with str min reduces your effective strength for the encumbrance table.

The next encumbrance category also reduces movement, and has an endurance penalty. The one weapon shield fighter will be moving slower and wearing out sooner unless they also spend points on extra running and a higher recovery.

The two weapon fighter using lighter weight gear can spend those points elsewhere to get an advantage while the shield fighter is trying to negate the encumbrance penalties.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by eepjr24

Having not played "DnD" since the mid 80's (when I discovered Hero) I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here, since 1st Edition had no rules for two weapon fighting.


I assumed you were falling back on DnD experience because your responses seemed to suggest that you thought there was some sort of game mechanic advantage to having a second weapon, which there isn't.

Originally posted by eepjr24

I am not arguing against making two weapon fighting. I was simply pointing out that your method was exceedingly cheap for the description you provided.


Ok. So how would YOU build it in a way that people would actually want to buy it for an efficient character?

Originally posted by eepjr24

Frankly I think that stooping to name calling after you asked for feedback is rude. I don't have a personal stake in trashing your constructions, and if you read my other posts I think you will find that I do not troll the boards either. If you do not want constructive feedback in general, please feel free not to ask for it. If you do not like mine specifically, please feel free to ignore it.


Please accept my regrets. I honestly thought your post looked like a troll/flame. Reading it now I still get that feeling, but I guess I am mistaken. I will take your criticism (and any other genuine thoughts) gladly. I respond poorly to trolls though, and that's what I (wrongly) thought your post was.

Originally posted by eepjr24

I have no problems with your sequence here. However, what you originally stated was:
[Quote from my post]
Note that the sequence is reversed. Again, if you change the sequence, my only comment would be that we differ greatly on the amount of limitation that the maneuver is worth.


I thought the sequence was clear from the power. As any power with a related skill roll you spend the action first and then roll to see if your action was wasted, not roll first then spend the action if it will succeed. Apparently you were drawing your presumed game mechanics from the "flavor text" which was meant only as explanation of rough effect for newer players. Your assertion on this front was one of the things that made me assume it was a troll.

As for the limitation value, you may be right. If I recall my thinking at the time it was that RSR with an opposed skill roll (as a block certainly is) is -3/4. In this case the skill roll is something common and happens in a combat context but I'll ignore that because it's one thing where the opponent is likely to have a high value (on par with the PC). Then You have to take into account that the bad guy can completely eliminate this power by choosing to thump other people and that in the context here (during a PCs action), the block will be pre-emptive (as opposed to an abort) and thus the bad guy can see it happen. If I have a bad guy fighting a whole party and one of the PCs is blocking while the others aren't, the bad guy will probably turn to whale on the other PCs while duelist boy blocks thin air. That second part seems like a solid -1 to me (would I rather have an -11 or "opponent must attack my visible block"? -11 !!!)

Before people jump on me about waiting to block (and thus surprising the foe), keep in mind that the character has to block during the same segment as his FW roll. Thus he has to have an action and spends the first half rolling FW. Then he has a half move and has to use it on the same segment, meaning he has to block before the bad guy moves or make a DEX roll to interrupt (no aborting on segments when you've taken any action). Thus it's either a visible pre-emptive block or adding another DEX roll and reducing your chances to P(FW) x P(DEX) x P(Block) which get's very ugly.

-DG

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by feywulf
Weapons with str min cost endurance to use based on the strength minimum. It is logical that other equipment with a str min would also cost END. The large shield with an 18 str min will cost 2 END to use per phase.

[Deletia]

The next encumbrance category also reduces movement, and has an endurance penalty. The one weapon shield fighter will be moving slower and wearing out sooner unless they also spend points on extra running and a higher recovery.


Feywulf-

While STR min equipment does cost end "based on the STR used" (pg 327), a character never pays end for his STR more than once per phase no matter how many things it's used for (pg 20). So a fighter using a weapon in one hand and a shield (or anything else) in the other doesn't pay any extra end usually.

-DG

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
Hhhmmm... a large Shield requires a 18 STR Min (thats REAL massive STR there for a Normal) so I'm going with that...thats a 300 kg Max with the shild weighing 7....I'm going to not use sectional armor and go with a full chain mail...thats another 20 kg....estimate 10 kg for equiptment....we're at 37...so without adding the Weight of the stereotypical Axe (weapon weight has always been missing from the Hero rules...never understood that)...thats a -1 to DCV...which with my reading of the rules, applies before the half is preformed....

Good thoughts....but I think I need to actually see Strenght ect. for a character before I can completely agree or disagree with ya.

Yeah. We've got another thread with a poll on point totals used for FH. Looks like 150 is most popular, followed by 100. At both those levels I typically see fighters (and archers) with solid 20 STR on everybody. STR is just SO efficient. That gives 40kg to work with and weight to spare. Typically people in my campaigns cruise along just below the encumberance threshold (even when it means going to partial coverage by, say, swapping out their plate gloves and shoes for leather).

:rolleyes:

Just the way it is, I guess. But it does make the encumberance less of an effect. Don't even get me STARTED on how boring it gets having a whole party in plate.

-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Well now that I've attacked other feats, here are a few that I've come up with...

Here are the Prereqs....

Animal Handler Min of 12-
Knowledge Skill : Woodland Animals

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">9  </td><td><b><i>Beast Controll I: </i></b>Mind Control 5d6, Telepathic (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Skin Contact Required (-1), Set Effect (-3/4), Limited Class Of Minds (Subset of a class; -1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4) [<b>Notes:</b> Set Effect : Leave Area; Class : Woodland Animal] The Effect is to drive off an agressive Woodland Animal without haveing to battle. </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td><b><i>Beast Controll II: </i></b>Mind Control 7d6, Telepathic (+1/4) (44 Active Points); Skin Contact Required (-1), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), Set Effect (-1/4), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4) [<b>Notes:</b> Set Effect : Friend; Class : Animal] This makes the Animal friendly to the character, will not follow commands nor follow the character but will defend the character if the character is attacked. </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">21  </td><td><b><i>Beast Controll III: </i></b>Mind Control 10d6, Telepathic (+1/4) (62 Active Points); Skin Contact Required (-1), Set Effect (-1/2), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Knocked Out (-1/4), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4) [<b>Notes:</b> Set Effect : Companion; Class : Animal] Full fledge animal companion. Breakout roll occures when Animal is injured, and if successful animal flees. </td><td valign="top" align="right">6</td></tr></table>

I see these as types of powers that one can progress into... IE if you have Level 1, then you can spend the difference to gain Level 2, etc. This will require some GM rules as to speed that one can progress, training, etc.

not sure if these should be considered feats or a package appropiate for the Class...

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td>Traceless Assassin (18) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7  </td><td>1) <b><i>Evasive Perching: </i></b>Clinging (13 STR) (11 Active Points); Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>2) <b><i>Silent Stalker: </i></b>Invisibility to Sight Group (Additional Sense: Normal Hearing), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (34 Active Points); Extra Time, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (1 Minute; -3/4), Character May Take No Other Actions (-1/4), Requires A Stealth Roll (-1/2), Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), Only Works in Shadows/Darkness (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations -1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1  </td><td>3) <b><i>Spotless Step: </i></b>Flight 1" (2 Active Points); Limited Power (Only to not Leave Tracks; -1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>

Now I'm not 100% sure I like this one...it may be unbalancing....

It requires a KS : Armor and perhaps a prereq of Weaponsmith : Muscle Powered Ranged

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td>Uncanny Archerer </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>1) <b><i>Armor Inferiority: </i></b>Find Weakness 12- (Related Group of Attacks) (25 Active Points); Does Not Apply Against Certain Types Of Defenses (Affects Real Armor Only; -1), Requires A KS : Armor Roll (-1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Bows and Crossbows Only; Cannot be used with PSL : Called Shot; 12- MAX] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>

Not sure but I'm thinking up something for Lack of Weakness to apply to someone skilled at altering their Armor to prevents soft areas...

All right... I'm ready... everyone flame 'em!

[DarkGreen]

Heh, One thing I like about the Armor Inferiority feat is that it doesn't effect natural armor, so all my biggest bad guys would be unaffected.

I'll call that one the "PC ripper" !! :)


-DG

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
Heh, One thing I like about the Armor Inferiority feat is that it doesn't effect natural armor, so all my biggest bad guys would be unaffected.

I'll call that one the "PC ripper" !! :)


-DG

I'm not understanding that statement....

If effect physical Armor, not things like MAge Armor, etc.

Explain please...

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
I'm not understanding that statement....

If effect physical Armor, not things like MAge Armor, etc.

Explain please...

Ah... I see "Affects Real Armor Only" and my first thought is that you mean that it affects armor bought with the "Real Armor" disad (pg 334). In most FH campaigns that means all the armor people will wear, but not natural armor or magic spells. If you meant "Real" as in "Physical", then never mind my statement.

-DG

[Lucius]

Just a quick note about the comment "We all know what they are in D&D"

Uh, actually, we don't. I have never played any version of D&D that included something called "feats." Maybe that tells you how long it has been since I played D&D.

Lucius Alexander

I don't think the palindromedary ever played D&D but it ate a Monster Manual once.

[DarkGreen]

Originally posted by Lucius
Just a quick note about the comment "We all know what they are in D&D"

Uh, actually, we don't. I have never played any version of D&D that included something called "feats." Maybe that tells you how long it has been since I played D&D.

Lucius Alexander

I don't think the palindromedary ever played D&D but it ate a Monster Manual once.

Ah... I see... Tell the palindromedary that I will get him for eating my monster manual.

Feats in 3rd Ed D&D are basically small but exotic abilities that each character gets a few of to differentiate themselves. Much like the things people have been posting in this thread each one rarely has a huge effect on the game (at least until you stack them on each other) but they add flavor.

-DG