How cheap can you castle?

[Daryl]

So, a friend of mine asked me how to build Castle-ing in 5th edition: you know, one guy trades places with another. In this case, it's always the same two people, and the power resides in only one of the characters, and she wants to castle the other person up close and at (very) long distance, even when the target is unconscious. Just to level the playing field, say that she only wants one charge.

On my first crack at it, it got pretty expensive. So, what's the cheapest legal way to build this?

--d

[JmOz]

Well it breaks one of your rules, both should have it

10" TPort, Trigger, one set trigger
10" TPort, Trigger, one set trigger, Megascale

[Vondy]

That would be the follower:

Wife With Title In Her Own Right.

On a more serious note: what about purchasing the summoning power for each castle and applying various lims (immovable focus, additional conditions, etc)

[Killer Shrike]

erm, I dont think he means literal castles D-Man. I think he means like the chess manuever where the Rook can change places with the king under certain circumstances.

Id go with Teleport, must cross intervening space cross-linked (ie each power is linked to the other; see the Rules FAQ for Linked) to another Teleport UOO must cross space, only vs Specific Person (-2).

That should do it.

[Daryl]

Well, I was hoping somebody would dive into the details and find a cheaper, yet still legal way to do this.

Here's what I came up with. First, you get some base teleportation. Since she wants to teleport over short distances and long, she's got to buy it twice, once with Megascale, as JmOz suggested above. Put this in a multipower with each slot ultra'd, then put 1 charge on the base pool of the multipower, since the whole multi can only be used once.

She can port to one Fixed Location. The description says explicitly that this can be a person. So that costs 1 extra point. Can only teleport to fixed locations is -1 or -1/2, and Fred says that if the character has _only_ fixed locations, not floating fixed, then it's worth -1.

Each self port is is linked to the Teleport vs. her partner (-1/2, because "self port" is the lesser power).

And what about that T-port vs Partner? She has to buy teleportation two more times (short distance and megascale), with the fixed location and charge limitation as in the self port. Plus, she has to buy Usable as Attack (+1), because she wants to do it even when the other character is unconscious (and maybe unwilling). Add on ranged (+1/2), and Linked to lesser power (-1/4).

One question, though: how to "attack" that other partner, across megascale distances, and have a chance to hit? The two characters in question have mind link, so we could use Based on ECV. If there was no mind link, I suppose she could buy Mind Scan, only for that Mind. Are there other ways to do this?

I suppose she could put all four of these teleports in one multipower, then apply 2 charges to the pool, and one charge to each slot. (Have to look up if that's legal in 5th ed.)

Anyway, you see what I mean. It's pretty expensive. Anyone have any more ideas?

[Yamo]

Anyway, you see what I mean. It's pretty expensive. Anyone have any more ideas?

Call it cheesy, but...

Extra-Dimensional Movement to the "dimension" where the two parties have just exchanged places. :)

[AlHazred]

No wait, Transformation (target character into castleing character), with a Transformation Side Effect (castleing character into target character)...

Seriously, your options are somewhat limited. What's the Special Effect?

[Talon]

You want to use Trigger to set up the Teleport in advance, so that there's no "attack" required when it goes off.

If the GM is feeling really generous, and considers part of the castle to be a disadvantage rather than a benefit, you could do one of the two Teleports as a Side Effect of the other. This might make sense or might be abusive, depending on the circumstances, but it would reduce the cost.

Cost Power
1 Other Character: Teleportation: Fixed Location (1 Locations)
19 Castle: Multipower, 56-point reserve, all slots: (56 Active Points); Can Only Teleport to Fixed Locations (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1)
1u 1) Long-Range Castle: Teleportation 5", Trigger (+1/4), Megascale 100 km (scalable) (+1) (22 Active Points)
2u 2) Short-Range Castle: Teleportation 5", x256 Noncombat, Trigger (+1/4) (56 Active Points)
Powers Cost: 23

Without this you've got to link a Usable As Attack Teleport, which is going to increase the cost. (If the partner must help reset the power, you could buy it Usable By Other which would reduce the cost.)

[Killer Shrike]

What Geoff said is a good way to do it, and is reasonable in limited circumstances, but to make sure it really is limited appropriately, you may want to add in a limitation that the "rook" character cannot be in danger, and the "king" character must be in danger.

You might also want to either add Mind Link to the "king", so the "king" can communicate thier danger, allowing the "rook" to know when to "castle", or a limited Danger Sense for the "rook" designed to detect danger to the "king" rather than to themselves.

[BobGreenwade]

Before this thread had come up, I'd built a power for the USPD that does something very similar to what's been asked for here. You'll find it under Teleportation Powers, with the name Trading Spaces. It's not particularly cheap (45 points for a 15" effect), but it works.

It occurs to me that a villain could easily use this sort of power as an assassination tool: get within eyeshot of the target, jump off a building, and trade places.

To do the exact of what's requested, I'd just use Teleportation, MegaScale (to whatever distance), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Only to Trade Places (-1), 1 Charge (-2).

[DigitalGolem]

...may not be legal. Buy t-port for the character with the power, and take the t-port for the other character as a side-effect limitation with active points equal to the base power. Twice the power, at half the price. I'm evil.

:D

DGv3.0

[Agent X]

Originally posted by DigitalGolem
...may not be legal. Buy t-port for the character with the power, and take the t-port for the other character as a side-effect limitation with active points equal to the base power. Twice the power, at half the price. I'm evil.

:D

DGv3.0 I don't know. If it's the only way you can use the teleport, in many ways it makes sense.

[Yamo]

To do the exact of what's requested, I'd just use Teleportation, MegaScale (to whatever distance), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Only to Trade Places (-1), 1 Charge (-2).

What if the party without the Power doesn't want to be teleported?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Yamo
What if the party without the Power doesn't want to be teleported? That's up to Daryl's friend's GM.

[Daryl]

What if the party without the Power doesn't want to be teleported?

This is why it's got to be Usable as an attack -- the King may want to castle, but the rook may not, or the rook may be unconscious -- as in Bob's Trading Places power (thanks for pointing that out, Bob, I hadn't seen it). My only nit is that as a GM I don't think I'd allow Only to Trade Spaces to be the same limitation as T-Port's already established, and more limiting, Only to Fixed Location (-1).

I don't think I'd allow DigitalGolem's idea of having one of the two T-Ports as Side Effect, because that's getting an advantage for a limitation's discount. Sometimes it'll be a huge advantage to switch places (Yikes! I'm surrounded by Mechanons! *castle*)

The place where I'm choking, is -- how to assess an attack on a rook that may be out of sight and across the world? In Bob's Trading Spaces attack, the rook has to be LOS and within 15", so normal attack mods apply.

It seems like it's a Fixed Target, Will Always Hit -- something usually not allowable in Hero. Do we have to make the Attack Port based on ECV, plus global Mindscan, only 1 Mind? Fabulously expensive.

Any ideas on just the attack part of the problem?

[Agent X]

I was under the impression this was a unique power between two characters. :confused:
Oh well.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Daryl
The place where I'm choking, is -- how to assess an attack on a rook that may be out of sight and across the world? In Bob's Trading Spaces attack, the rook has to be LOS and within 15", so normal attack mods apply. An option that Steve deleted was that ability to trade with a specific individual, which I bought as a memorized location. That plus enough MegaScale to cover the entire globe, plus permission from the GM, should do the trick.

[The Monster]

Out of left field...
why not try doing this with Summon? Summon isn't tied to distance, unless you take a specific limitation for it.

Ten a few points for a one-charge Teleport to put yourlsef in the summoned character's place, and 'el Bingo' you're golden.

Actually, this makes an interesting idea for a magical demon-summoning power - "I'll take your place in Hell for a few minutes if you'll trash my enemies. Fun for you, cheap for me."

[Yamo]

Bingo! Specific individual Summon linked to MegaScale Teleport!

w00t!

[Daryl]

Bingo! Specific individual Summon linked to MegaScale Teleport!

Hmmm. I like that. I'll have to figure out the cost.

--d

[Blue Jogger]

Castling (+1): This Advantage allows a character to teleport by switching places with an existing object or person. The teleporter shows up with the same position, facing and velocity as the target (unless modified by another Adder). The target acquires the teleporter's old position, facing and velocity (unless modified by another Adder). The teleporter must be able to perceive his target to exchange unless it is one of his Fixed Locations. Difficult castling maneuvers should require a Power Skill roll. When the power is defined, it must have a reasonably common set of defenses which an unwilling target can prevent the castling from occuring.

Edit: The teleporter must have an object to exchange with that is roughly simular to the teleporter's mass or the castling teleport fails.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm...Summon, Specific Being (+1); Only that one specific person (-2); Side Effect (you go where summoned being was; always happens; Extreme; -2); Cannot control summoned being (-2 based on Antagonistic + strong willed being 1 1/4); you can castle with a 350 point character for 10 points. So why did you want charges?

Yes it's cheesy. Would I allow it in my campaign? Depends - if I think the effect they're trying to achieve is of limited value, I probably would. Especially if the transferee is a friend (can't use it to get out of danger without exposing the other to danger).

I'm reminded of a villain who could castle. He was pretty unhappy when he tried it on Vanadium Man (never thought a +5/+5 fully invisible hardened force field usable against others would turn out to be so much fun...)

[Syberdwarf2]

IDHBIFOM, but...

Buy a Teleport for the main character with a floating location (farside of target, since a King and a Rook end up on either side of each other, not in each others spot, but I digress...)
Buy a second teleport, usable as an attack, for the other character. That way, you try to force the character to teleport, if they resist, you end up beside them. if they fail to resist, they end up in your old location.

Or you could buy teleport and try to (ahem) 'port right into the target. You could then take advantage of an 'unallowable' in the system. (Teleporting characters can't 'port into solid objects, and end up 'landing' in a hex adjacent to the target.)

Of course, I could be way off on this....

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger
Castling (+1): This Advantage allows a character to teleport by switching places with an existing object or person. The teleporter shows up with the same position, facing and velocity as the target (unless modified by another Adder). The target acquires the teleporter's old position, facing and velocity (unless modified by another Adder). The teleporter must be able to perceive his target to exchange unless it is one of his Fixed Locations. Difficult castling maneuvers should require a Power Skill roll. When the power is defined, it must have a reasonably common set of defenses which an unwilling target can prevent the castling from occuring.

Edit: The teleporter must have an object to exchange with that is roughly simular to the teleporter's mass or the castling teleport fails. This looks pretty decent, though with one fairly minor caveat: since I was able to build the ability for 45 points at 15", I'd call the basic Advantage (trading locations only) a +1/2, and the trading of facing and velocity an additional +1/2. :D

[Space Cadet]

By any chance, did the idea for this power come from the DC
sci-fi limited series Spanner's Galaxy?

Space Cadet :confused:

[Daryl]

Originally posted by Space Cadet
[B]By any chance, did the idea for this power come from the DC sci-fi limited series Spanner's Galaxy?

Yes! I couldn't remember the name of the book until you'd said it, but that's where I first remember seeing the power called that. Was that the first use of the term? It's so wide-spread now that "castling" was either in the air before that comic (some SF story, maybe), or picked up since then.

--d

[Blue Jogger]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
This looks pretty decent, though with one fairly minor caveat: since I was able to build the ability for 45 points at 15", I'd call the basic Advantage (trading locations only) a +1/2, and the trading of facing and velocity an additional +1/2. :D

I thought of trading facing and velocity actually a part of teleport castling. If Person A is flying back and exchanges with (or gets exchanged by) Person B who is standing still, it makes sense to me that Person A is now standing still and Person B is flying back. In some cases, that shouldn't happen, and additional Adders could be used to match velocities, change headings and facings, etc. As one person suggested, it could teleport the other person to the midpoint to reflect the chess maneuver. :p

It feels like a +1 to me. It would be used as an attack (unless a limitation prevents it from swapping with just anybody) and it's really two teleports. If a GM wants to make it a +1/2, and it reflects the special effects, then by all means take it. :D

Edit: Exchanging velocity, position, etc. isn't always an advantage. You could end up, flat on your back or even 0 DCV inside someone's grab. Or exchanging with someone right before that huge attack lands while you're at non-combat. Or if the target is running away, you could port in looking [u]away[\u] from the battle.

Granted, anyone who had this power, would attempt to exchange with an enemy to "set him up". Taunting Grond and swapping with the enemy's martial art expert right before that haymaker, for example...

I was also thinking, if you could exhange with almost anything that has enough mass, that's a -0 Limitation. If you could exchange only with a small number of teammates or objects, that's a -1/2 Limitation. If you could only exchange with "your other half" that's a -1 Limitation.

[GamePhil]

I'd go with the Summoning with the Side Effect, myself. Either that or what I did in 4th Edition: have both characters buy Multiform to become the other character.

[Markdoc]

As I understand it this is not a power you want to be able to tag onto anybody, but a bodyswap with one specific person, right?

In that case, I would go with trigger and side effect, and ignore the attack aspect. The downside is that they would have to agree to accept the power: but if it is a specific NPC or another PC then that should be OK

Rationale: If the King could simply move to the Castle when surrounded by Mechanons, then that's cool.

If the Castle - the only person on whom you can use the power - is then dropped inthe middle of mess of Mechanons who have just been irritated by the disappearance of the meat-being - not so cool...

Cheers, Mark

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger
I thought of trading facing and velocity actually a part of teleport castling. If Person A is flying back and exchanges with (or gets exchanged by) Person B who is standing still, it makes sense to me that Person A is now standing still and Person B is flying back. In some cases, that shouldn't happen, and additional Adders could be used to match velocities, change headings and facings, etc. As one person suggested, it could teleport the other person to the midpoint to reflect the chess maneuver. :p

It feels like a +1 to me. It would be used as an attack (unless a limitation prevents it from swapping with just anybody) and it's really two teleports. If a GM wants to make it a +1/2, and it reflects the special effects, then by all means take it. :D I'm not saying your math is wrong or anything; I'm just saying let's set it up so both options are possible. +1/2 to just change locations, +1 to also change positions and velocities. Usually characters will take the +1 level; +1/2 is just a special option for when the Special Effects call for it.
I was also thinking, if you could exhange with almost anything that has enough mass, that's a -0 Limitation. If you could exchange only with a small number of teammates or objects, that's a -1/2 Limitation. If you could only exchange with "your other half" that's a -1 Limitation. This could also be set up with Adders: +0 points for one person, +5 points for a small group, +10 points for anyone. (I'm not sure this would properly meld into the system, but it's a thought.)