Hilarious rpg.net thread!

[Yamo]

I don't know how many of you have see this one yet, but boy is it a doozy. Enjoy!

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33827

[Mutant for Hire]

His arguments are not completely without merit. There is a valid case to be made under the current rules that COM is a waste of character sheet space.

Amusingly enough, he actually missed a point: non-combat skills are for the most part scaled to DEX/5 while combat skills are scaled to DEX/3 and I have yet to figure out a reason as to why.

And then there is the question of why so many attributes only manifest in CHAR/5 levels, making one wonder why one should not just divide the attributes by five in the first place.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
And then there is the question of why so many attributes only manifest in CHAR/5 levels, making one wonder why one should not just divide the attributes by five in the first place.
Because if you did that, then you would be playing Fuzion; his favorite game. :)

[Monolith]

And Yamo, curse you for making me go over there and read all those flames. You know I have a low threshold for negativity. :(

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
You know I have a low threshold for negativity. :(

Me too... let's kill him. :D

Edit: Just to clarify, NOT Yamo, the Troll...

[Yamo]

And then there is the question of why so many attributes only manifest in CHAR/5 levels, making one wonder why one should not just divide the attributes by five in the first place.

This has been covered. Two reasons, though.

1. Adjustment Powers.

So many Powers alter Characteristics in play (Absorption, Aid, Drain, Suppress, Transfer, etc) that being closer to a positive "breakpoint" or farther from a negative one is a bonus in and of itself.

2. Incremental improvement.

I prefer to improve stats over time when possible rather than all at once in a big, unwieldly "clump" of effectiveness. If STR 3 in the "new HERO" was equal to STR 10-15 in the old, for example, any increase in the stat whatsoever would instantly provide colossal benefits. I don't like that. The result is too vague and unrealistic for my tastes. Too "Fuziony", if you will. :)

[Fuzzy Gnome]

I found it mostly amusing, but it was just annoying enough to keep me from wasting everyone's time with an ill mannered rant about "roll-playing" vs. "role-playing." Some of the people on the temporary boards were really hitting my psych lims by saying "rules-light" games mean good roleplaying. But I would have degenerated into "Vampire suXXors Hero r0xx0rs" and just annoyed everybody, I suspect.
:mad: :o :p
So if you want a rant follow Yamo's link, or if you don't, thank Yamo.

[schir1964]

Hmmm, interesting... (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[Keneton]

I hate when non heroes make fun of hero saying its complicated. If it was so complicated why could Dan make Hero Designer "understand" the rules, but e-tools totally sucks!

I play multiple games, and everyone knows that 3rd edition stole everything good from Hero. Even Monte Cook would admit this. DR, Resistance, Full Defense Action, Item Hardness, Breaking Things = Champions!

I love d20, play it once every other week 2 campaigns, but Hero is my choice. Why do we get flamed by retards. They should just play Toon and Amber and role play themselves to hillbilly heaven all while feeling superior. This is just a disquise for being tactically incompotent.

Years ago they used to say that a bi#$% was a girl that would date anyone but you and a slut was a girl that slept with anyone but you. People criticize Hero because they CAN'T READ! They make fun of what they can't do or what they can't have.

Last in my rant, what is all this hoopla about tacticle movement. What good game doesn't have it. For God's sake spend 20 bucks on a battlemat and a few vis a vis. If you dont have it, your not really playing the game!

[Jerry A!]

Well, since everyone is jumping on this bandwagon.

First, let me say that having played MnM I have to say that I honestly like it. It is a tight system. And I think it speaks to it's economy of design that it does rather well in 192 pages what most games can't do in twice that much space.

Keep in mind, this isn't D20 Champions. It's streamlined to a different degree.

Now, having said that, I'll say that I still prefer the uber-flexibility of Hero. In my opinion, this is both it's strength and it's weakness to the average game player.

Comparing the two, I think that I've boiled down a list of where I believe Hero could improve.

First, a better set of pre-built powers complete with optional extras that can be tacked on. I've noticed that people enjoy just picking a power and doing a general tweak, as opposed to building it from scratch. And it makes character generation so much quicker. Yeah, I know some of you out there aren't fans of the spoonfed method. But apparently, there is a market of uncaptured players that are a fan of said method.

I understand that Steve is working on such a book. It can't get here fast enough.

Second, combat, combat, combat. I've seen both rule sets have combat suck and drag. Part of it is due to complexity, part of it is due to inexperience. For instance, my one friend (I have two :D ) can run the combat as fast as any system I've seen. Then again, he's been playing for almost 15 years.

I would love to see a FAQ annotates a medium-sized combat (5-10) people put up on the web site. Something that can walk someone through actions, the speed chart, END, REC, where some optional rules might come into play, etc. And like I said, annotate it. Put in some design notes, why some choices were made, and page references in FREd.

Well, maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I know that it would help the morons that I play with. ;)

To end on a positive note, here are the things that Hero does extremely well. Out of the box, it's great for multi-genre play. As we all always point out, it's infinitely customizable. Limitations work in a much more balanced way. It's more internally consistent.

Though, it's a lot easier to carry around the MnM rulebook. ;)

[MuscaDomestica]

I thought the humor in the thread was the fact that he was using the 4th ed book and most of the things he mentioned were fixed in 5th ed...

[Thirdbase]

That was interesting, glad I wore my "Asbestos Undies"

I thinking of finding a nice D20 board and reviewing AD&D 1st Edition. (I need different size dice, why?);)

[Syberdwarf2]

First off, thank you Yamo for that amusing link. I DID find it amusing, but I could take it only so much. The responses to our not-so-favorite troll were funny, but repetetive.
But, again, thank you.
That being said, I'd like to take a few moments to inject a few positive comments about why I like HERO. There are always going to be complaints about any system, and HERO is no exception. Common complaints, many of which I've maintained myself at some point, until FREd;
Combat is too clunky (complex,irritating,........)
Not anymore. the explanation of what happens when is made much more concise. It now takes no longer to learn the combat sequence than, say d20.
Combat takes too long.
There are suggestions (not present in 4th) that help make things go by a lot quicker. My personal favorite, which I'm ashamed to say I didn't already think of, is pre-rolling dice before game play. Just take a spreadsheet program, insert the proper random number function, copy, paste, and voila.
The Experience point system sucks.
Matter of opinon, purely I think. I for one am glad that there's an Experience system in there that rewards roleplaying. I prefer it over a system that gives you points for killing things, stealing their gold,...... wait, doesn't that happen in video games???
There's not enough premade/ prewritten material on subject XYZ.....
Again, I prefer to use my imagination. Heaven forbid THAT should happen in a Roleplaying Game.

Anyway, I don't want to eat up bandwidth anymore than I have to. And I don't want to seem like a troll. Just wanted to point out that HERO has been, for the most part fixed. Thank you Herogames/DOJ for making my favorite system MUCH easier to use. If you hadn't fixed and/or clarified all those problems from 4th, I'd have never gotten back into gaming after an almost 7 year hiatus.

Make mine HERO!!

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
There's not enough premade/ prewritten material on subject XYZ.....
Again, I prefer to use my imagination. Heaven forbid THAT should happen in a Roleplaying Game.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. This is the complaint that I hear most often about LOTS of game systems. I blame White Wolf... That's not a Flame, just a statement of fact. Prior to the WOD, I had rarely seem a game system (a popular one anyway) that was so deeply entrenched in a setting. The point of RPing games (even the earliest ones) was that they were tools for the imagination. Who among us did not create their own world/setting for their first game of D&D? Now such ideas are 'Homebrewed' and viewed as some sort of oddity.

[Chaosliege]

Funny link. I could only read 1 page though as it was getting repititios(sp). I happen to like several role-playing games, but Hero at least lets me do whatever I want. If I cant make an existing power do what I want, I create one, witch is easy to do in Hero. I admit that combat takes a long time and if that's a problem for someone, non't play Hero. I love that combat takes forever, because I know when it's over, it was done effectively. As far as Stats costing different points, I like that too. At least with Hero it doesn't matter how strong I am when determining whether I hit something or not(shameless D20 flame), just how much damage I do.

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. This is the complaint that I hear most often about LOTS of game systems. I blame White Wolf... That's not a Flame, just a statement of fact. Prior to the WOD, I had rarely seem a game system (a popular one anyway) that was so deeply entrenched in a setting. The point of RPing games (even the earliest ones) was that they were tools for the imagination. Who among us did not create their own world/setting for their first game of D&D? Now such ideas are 'Homebrewed' and viewed as some sort of oddity.

I don't think that the original poster was talking about game settings. Then again he may have been.

Now, while I'm a big fan of creating my own stuff, I'm also lazy. More so now that I'm living in a grown up world and expected to handle grown up stuff.

Sometimes, it is nice to pay a few extra bucks with stuff already put together. The time-savings alone make it worth the money.

Time aside, I've run across many players who are put off by having to create every aspect of a character (and I believe this is what Hero mostly gets panned on in reviews).

Then again, it could be my players (they're idiots).

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
I don't think that the original poster was talking about game settings. Then again he may have been.
Now, while I'm a big fan of creating my own stuff, I'm also lazy. More so now that I'm living in a grown up world and expected to handle grown up stuff.
Sometimes, it is nice to pay a few extra bucks with stuff already put together. The time-savings alone make it worth the money.
Time aside, I've run across many players who are put off by having to create every aspect of a character (and I believe this is what Hero mostly gets panned on in reviews).
Then again, it could be my players (they're idiots).

Let me clarify my point. The poster complained that the CORE book didn't have setting/world information. My point was that I don't think those are necessarily appropriate for a Core rulebook and are more suited to expansion/options. A lot of games these days seem to favor a 'rich' setting over providing good rules or tie the rules so closely with the setting that it's nearly impossible to use the rules without the imbeded setting.

[tiger]

The main complaint I alwasy heard was 'You have to take disadvantages".

You can try and explain till you blue in the face, but to no avail. I finally had one guy explain his D&D character, as he told me about his character I'd right down disadvantages he would have in hero. When I showed him the list he shut-up.

He still hated the game he never played. Just had to come up with new excuses.:D

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by tiger
The main complaint I alwasy heard was 'You have to take disadvantages".

You can try and explain till you blue in the face, but to no avail. I finally had one guy explain his D&D character, as he told me about his character I'd right down disadvantages he would have in hero. When I showed him the list he shut-up.

He still hated the game he never played. Just had to come up with new excuses.:D


That's the BEST idea I ever heard... *makes notes to use tactic in future*

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
That's the BEST idea I ever heard... *makes notes to use tactic in future*

Careful. I tried this approach once. Described his character. Came up with Psych Lims like "bloodlust", "enjoys killing combat" etc...

Then I realized that would just give him more points to go on his body count spree. :(

Though, this is the same player that borrowed my copy of MnM and based his entire character around the Disentegration power. Just b/c it did massive amounts of damage.

Now that I think about it, maybe it is a good thing to make these chumps build out each power. :D

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
Careful. I tried this approach once. Described his character. Came up with Psych Lims like "bloodlust", "enjoys killing combat" etc...

Then I realized that would just give him more points to go on his body count spree. :(

Though, this is the same player that borrowed my copy of MnM and based his entire character around the Disentegration power. Just b/c it did massive amounts of damage.

Now that I think about it, maybe it is a good thing to make these chumps build out each power. :D

And THAT my friend is the difference between a Munhkin and a Twink...

[Cybernaut]

All I'm going to say is a skunk is an appropriate avatar for a little stinker like that.:rolleyes:

[Toadmaster]

The thing I kept thinking was, if you are going to slam a game, it might be a good idea to know what you are talking about, and if the post was typical of the poster (which from some of the replies I get the feeling they are) it seems like they just might read the rules just to find holes, of course doing so would prove fruitless and they might just find they liked the game, then where would they direct all that negativity.

Something else I found odd were the number of people who chimed in agreeing with the pointlessness of Comeliness, I don't see how the GURPS solution of really ugly, kinda ugly, average, good looking and WOW is any better than HEROs stat which provides basically the same thing without the complexity, its just a stat instead of an advantage. I don't have a problem with the way GURPS handled it either but I don't see a problem with the way HERO did it.

[Trebuchet]

COM seems for most HERO players to be more along the lines of a roleplaying Characteristic. Many players seem to prefer to regard their characters as good looking (or ugly) in order to have a better concept of their character. For myself I've seldom built a female character with a COM lower than 16 nor a male lower than 12. In Champions that seems particularly appropriate, as most superheroes (and even more superheroines) are very good looking. Wonder Woman, Storm, Susan Richards, Rogue, and Starfire are all major babes.

If players don't like using COM, they can always just go with the free 10 COM and ignore it. Or sell some of it back and take the points. For myself, I'll continue to spend the 3 or 4 points to make my heroines gorgeous. :cool:

[Beowulf]

Interesting thread. Let me address it by talking about something he posted some time ago...

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
Time aside, I've run across many players who are put off by having to create every aspect of a character (and I believe this is what Hero mostly gets panned on in reviews).

To be honest, this is one of the aspects that kept me from getting into the HERO system for quite a while.

Now, I'm a long-time D&D player. I'm used to having tons of stuff ready-made and ready to go out of the box. Maybe I'm lazy. Whatever. But it was nice to be able to take a stock item (class/monster/spell), make some minor modifications, and get pretty much whatever I needed as a DM. The more template based approach in 3e made that even easier.

However, when the 3.5 news came out, I was not a happy camper. I'm still reserving judgment on the quality of the revision until I see it. The thing is, I have a very large collection of 3rd party material. I figured if I'm going to have to spend a great deal of time updating that to 3.5, I might as well update it to a system that has a little more "stability in the operating system" for lack of a better analogy.

This brought me to GURPS, HERO, and Fuzion (yes, Fuzion). The somewhat thin support of Fuzion ruled it out pretty quickly. I like GURPS, but it just isn't cinematic enough in the basic rules. Plus, there is a good chance of a GURPS 4e in the next couple of years, leaving me with the same problem as 3e D&D vs. 3.5e D&D.

So, I read up on the sample pdfs available on the company website. All of them. Several times. I've come to the conclusion this is probably the system I'm after.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in far too many words, is that building everything from the ground up is a real barrier to entry for some people. It was the main one for me, until I was faced with doing it anyway for the system I was currently using. More books like the Fantasy Grimoire and the premade superpowers book I saw mentioned elsewhere could really go a long way to removing that barrier.

[TC Slyboots]

Something that I would like to point out too; why does it take so long to fight a battle in Champions? One can always simply reduce the number of special manuevers, modifiers, etc, but I would argue that even if a fight was nothing but 10d6 EBs and 50 STR punches that it would still take longer to run a Champion's battle than in most other RPGs. Why? In my experience, it's because of all of the role-playing that's being done during the battle. not just between battles. I have never played another system wherein role-playing was such an integral part of bash-and-smash. Special team codes, a 3 -dimensional battlefield, an environment in which anything can and probably will be used for offense, defense, or tactical advantage; all of these things contribute to communication amongst the players and interaction amongst the characters.
Role-playing doesn't stop with battle, it simply changes in character...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by TC Slyboots
Something that I would like to point out too; why does it take so long to fight a battle in Champions? One can always simply reduce the number of special manuevers, modifiers, etc, but I would argue that even if a fight was nothing but 10d6 EBs and 50 STR punches that it would still take longer to run a Champion's battle than in most other RPGs. Why? In my experience, it's because of all of the role-playing that's being done during the battle. not just between battles. I have never played another system wherein role-playing was such an integral part of bash-and-smash. Special team codes, a 3 -dimensional battlefield, an environment in which anything can and probably will be used for offense, defense, or tactical advantage; all of these things contribute to communication amongst the players and interaction amongst the characters.
Role-playing doesn't stop with battle, it simply changes in character...

You raise some excellent points, and I much prefer the HERO method to the straight die rolls of AD&D. I have seen (and performed!) some incredible stunts in Champions that some so-called RPGs can't begin to approach. As a personal example:

Many years ago I played a female ninja I cleverly called Spirit Ninja (In case I ever forgot what she was. ;) ). During an underground battle against a flock (gaggle? bite? fang?) of vampires, my character was teleported by a mnd-controlled teammate to the top of a metal high-tension electrical tower, along with one of the vampire lords. She'd already seen her weaponry was rather ineffective against the undead, and the vampire smiled as he realized they were both 100 feet above the ground and he could fly. My character, as he well knew, couldn't fly. He uttered the usual words to the effect of "I have you now! Soon you'll be one of my slaves forever. Yadda yadda..."

My character pulled her metal weighted chain (1" Stretching)and threw it around the vampires outstretched wrist, then replied "Not in this lifetime!" as she jumped off the tower and simultaneously looped the metal chain over the high voltage cables. She used her grappling hook to save herself from the fall.

Afterwards the only identifiable pieces of the former undead were his melted bits of jewelry. :D

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
However, when the 3.5 news came out, I was not a happy camper. I'm still reserving judgment on the quality of the revision until I see it. The thing is, I have a very large collection of 3rd party material. I figured if I'm going to have to spend a great deal of time updating that to 3.5, I might as well update it to a system that has a little more "stability in the operating system" for lack of a better analogy.

It may make you happy to know that 3.5 is supposed to remain compatible with 3e. It's mostly the combat stuff and monsters as characters stuff that's being cleaned up. Also some work on Prestige Classes.

That being said, you should still stick with Hero. You'll be happier in the long run. I'm pretty sure that many will agree with me that it's the better system. :)