Why are bricks so popular?

[Demonsong]

Why are bricks so popular?

I am running a new game of Super Mercenaries, in a Rifts style setting. It was/is a unique opportunity for me as a GM because the group as a whole had never played Hero before! So I explained the world and there place in it. And set them free to make character concepts. This is the important part. No one had ever seen a Hero character or had any idea of what they could or could not do. After repeated assurance from me that they could indeed play any thing they wanted to, I got some great ideas back form all of them and we went on to make so very original and fun characters.

Now to the point of the post. Every one came up with very different concepts but 5 out of the 8 players concepts turned out to fit loosely in the category of a brick. And depending on how lose you want to make the brick category you could even goes so far as to say 7 out of 8 are bricks. We made every ones character according to concept. And I ended up with a group with very high defenses.

This in it self is not a bad thing for me, I have never had any problems dealing with high defenses, there is more than one way to skin a cat. However is did start me wondering if this was normal in Champions style campaigns. So to all you GM’s out there; do you find most of your PC’s want to play characters with high defenses?

[Killer Shrike]

Heh. I was just talking to one of my group, another vet player, about this last night.

Our current group of players who are either fairly new to HEROs (been playing it for around half a year, but never saw the system before joinging the group), brand new to HEROs, or vets returning to HEROs and a bit rusty.

The party is pretty brickish / martial artist heavy. Lots of what I think of as "Light Bricks", meaning aside from 1 Hulkish character, the other characters are more like Spiderman, Sunspot, Rogue etc -- super strength in the mid ranges, and various other powers.

The defenses average around 15 however, if you exclude the 1 "true brick" from the equation, with a propensity towards relying on DCV to not get hit, and several characters have non-persistent defenses.

Ive never played in a campaign where ALL the characters have some brickish qualities, but its not that big of a deal. ALL of the characters have a specialty that they excel at, so they dont "feel" the same in play.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Demonsong
Why are bricks so popular?Because, with the possible exception of DEX, STR is the best buy in the game. For every 10 points you spend on STR, you get about 25 points worth of bang for your buck: 2d6 HA (7 points)
2" Leaping (2 points)
2 PD (2 points)
2 REC (4 points)
5 STUN (5 points)
Misc. stuff -- +10 STR vs. Grabs/Entangles, resisting Knockback, x4 lifting capacity, extra throwing distance & damage, etc. (worth at least 5 points)Tough to beat all that... :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Because, with the possible exception of DEX, STR is the best buy in the game. For every 10 points you spend on STR, you get about 25 points worth of bang for your buck: 2d6 HA (7 points)
2" Leaping (2 points)
2 PD (2 points)
2 REC (4 points)
5 STUN (5 points)
Misc. stuff -- +10 STR vs. Grabs/Entangles, resisting Knockback, x4 lifting capacity, extra throwing distance & damage, etc. (worth at least 5 points)Tough to beat all that... :) Yeah, its hard to pass up the sheer efficiency of STR

[Susano]

I think most people equate comics superheros with Superman, and this, superhuman strength.

I don't think the average new guy does the math and says "Oohhh... STR is a great buy!" I think he (or she) says "I want to be able to do all the stuff superheroes do, y'know, toss cars, bend steel in my bare hands, shrug off bullets."

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Susano
I think most people equate comics superheros with Superman, and this, superhuman strength.

I don't think the average new guy does the math and says "Oohhh... STR is a great buy!" I think he (or she) says "I want to be able to do all the stuff superheroes do, y'know, toss cars, bend steel in my bare hands, shrug off bullets." Right, but they do make a guy thats fairly strong ("I think it would be cool to be strong enough to, say, lift a small car.") and tough ("I want to be bullet proof vs small arms fire, so 12 PD/12 ED resistant), and otherwise model the character with abilities that are fairly low key for the HERO System, but quite impressive objectively.

Then they ask the vet player if thier character "measures up", and you look at it and see 200 odd points in stats, enough rDef to invalidate goons with normal guns, some martial arts (cause everybody wants to "know kung fu") and have to say "yeah, this is well rounded and durable character who can definitely make his presense known".

So in effect, since what they want is to be effective in the game, and since the light brick / martial artist types are effective and are straightforward, they dont often get turned down as unviable characters.

So indirectly the efficiency of STR enters into the picture. :D

[Kid Chaos]

I actually have few Bricks personally in my personal character stock. I tend to build my heroes conceptually and try to keep my powers within that concept at all costs. If I can't justify a strength increase per my concept I don't do it. Out of 48~60 Player characters I have something like 7 Bricks. My NPC's are a different matter with a higher disposition to be vaguely brick-like.

Bricks do tend to be the popular archetype with my players, out of a group of 6 I have one non brick character.

I really think primarily it comes identifying strongly with the brick characters of the comic genre. To some Superman is <b>the</b> icon of the comic world. Current cartoon shows also focus mainly on the brick as a character. JLAdventures features two non bricks, one of whom only shows up to manipulate events and/or be scarily adept. The other is portrayed as something of a buffoon and not handle very well at all in my opinion.

Barring that you could always claim it's that DnD mentality creeping in as well.

[Lord Liaden]

Enhanced Strength is a concept people can easily relate to, and therefore fantasize about. It's more difficult to imagine being able to teleport or hurl lightning bolts, but super strength is merely an extension of what people can already do: leap a river instead of a puddle, throw a truck instead of a football, lift a building rather than a grocery box. The image is easy to visualize, so the thrill is easier to capture.

[dbsousa]

I also think that most gamers (and most people in general) have been bullied at one time or another. The primal adolescent superhero fantasy is to be able to beat up the bully.

[loki]

Originally posted by Demonsong
Why are bricks so popular?

I think it has to do with the LARGE volume of stuff you have to deal with when making your first champs character. You either end up with a hodge-podge of different skills and abilities that dont really mesh into a clear concept or a brick (at least in my experiance). I think this is because bricks are by nature prety straight forward. I think for total newbies it is REALLY a good idea for a begining character. Not alot of VPP's or Multiple slots to deal with.

Lok

[SuperPheemy]

In the game setting you mention, Super Mercenaries in a Post-Apocalyptic Riftsesque setting, combat effectiveness is implied as being important. Knowing little else about the specifics of the campaign, my initial thoughts run towards a character who is durable and able to dish out damage. The simplist way to design such a character is to give 'em high defenses, and enough physical power to hurt lots of unhurtable things, like tanks.

Even characters with non-brickish concepts, like sorcerers, or kung-fu kommandoes benefit greatly from adding a few brick qualities, and since we're talking about a combat setting, bricking up a bit doesn't stretch the character concept. i.e. It is entirely plausible that a sneaky ninja-type would layer on some extra armor defenses, so long as the defenses didn't weigh-em down too much. Boosting the strength a bit gives the character some offensive "oomph" above and beyond their techno-katana and ninjustsu.

On the other hand, if you were running a "Secret Psi-war" campaign set in New York 2003, you might see your bricks tossing a few more points towards EGO and Mental Defense

[Elysea]

I think Loki's right. Play a teleporter or a flyer or an energy-projector and a mentalist or a gadgeteer or a mage or a thief and your gaming experience becomes much more complicated than if you just play a straight brick. Your entire job description (in combat, anyway) is to get close to the opponent and slug it out until one of you falls down. That's simple enough for new players to handle, and they enjoy the security of knowing that even if they lose a fight, their charcater is highly unlikely to get splattered by an attack they weren't ready for. No one likes to see a character die, but new players are especially vulnerable to that fear. Bricks are the safest characters to play, in that regard.

If you play, say, an energy projector, you usually find yourself with so many options that it can be overwhelming. "Hmmm... Should I use my normal EB, or my Indirect? Maybe my Flash attack, or Entangle? How high should I be flying so I'm out of range of anything he can throw back at me? How much of my multipower pool should I be putting into my force field and how much into my attack? How much END have I spent so far, and how much END will I spend this phase?" The first Champs campaign I played in, I was taking over a character that a departing player had been playing. He was a shadow mage in a Champs campaign, with a Multipower. Having never played Champs before and not owning my own copy of the sourcebook, I spent a lot of combat staring at my character sheet wondering "What should I do?" I'd ask the rest of the group for advice, they'd tell me how many dice to roll and help me keep track of my END and STUN... but I felt bad slowing the game down. If you play a brick, it's much easier. Write down how many dice of damage you roll when you use all your Strength, and you're pretty much good to go. :)

[Tempuswolf]

:p I am too late. Everything I would have said, has been said.

a) Primary Archetype
b) Point Efficiency
c) Simple Design

[Hermit]

Well, I can tell you why I enjoy Bricks.

Yes, it's a classic archetype, and who hasn't dreamt of being darn nigh invulnerable and super strong?

It is relatively simple. Sometimes I just want to hit things, thanks :)

I don't like going unconscious and missing the play. Bricks, with their comparitively large amounts of stun, are more likely to be standing at the end of it all. Petty, but a point.

[Elysea]

Of course, supervillain bricks are almost always tougher than player character bricks, and that's when you need the people who fight with finesse. :)

[Brandi]

Also, brick powers are the easiest to model in Hero. The first time I tried creating a Champs character in 4th ed, I considered a vocal mimic, and after many conflicting suggestions from the expert players and trying to figure out whether hollering some kind of high-frequency sound through a bullhorn would be an EB or what, I came *this close* to giving the damned game up.

But made Irving instead.

[FWIW, a mimic is considerably easier to model in FRed now that Shape Shift can be bought as affecting specific sense groups...]

[Doug McCrae]

The original poster seemed to be talking about the high defenses aspect of Bricks rather than the high strength. Although a Champions Brick has both high strength and high defenses it sounds like its primary meaning is hardness/toughness/invulnerability.

At the moment I'm using the term 'strongman' for the strength archetype. After all there are some strong characters - Thor and Wonder Woman - that aren't invulnerable.

Going back over the whole history of super powers, all the way back to Gilgamesh, I'd say superhuman strength is by *far* the most popular power.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Demonsong
So to all you GM’s out there; do you find most of your PC’s want to play characters with high defenses? Not really. In my last superhero campaign the over-riding feature for a PC was that he had to have a punning name. I didn't ask them to, the players just seemed to think that's what you had to do for a superhero game.

[J4y]

The first time you're making a character you're probably thinking... okay, goal 1) Don't die, goal 2) Kick some butt.

High PD/ED are much easier for someone that isn't familiar with the rules to see how they benefit the character than raising DCV is, particularly when the player is at the same time looking at how many damage classes their "kick some butt" attack is doing for the points

Then you get to movement and it's like... oh, 6 hexes, that sounds like a lot. Non-combat I could run across the board and back in a turn, thats plenty! Then for speed, 10 points for +1or +2d6 if you go with strength... hey strength raises PD too, CHA-CHING!

[Acroyear]

While I doubt most players look at the point value of strength (especially NEW players to the game)... being "better than human" on a physical level is very superheroic.

That, and nobody wants to be taken out of a fight because a cop or a thug manages to grab you.

It's also been my experience that most people, trying to play tough guys, prefer to shrug off hits and look impressive rather than dance around and dodge like a girly-man.

[JmOz]

Also I insist on new players playing either Bricks or basic Blasters (One energy blast). I have also allowed on rare occasion a few weapons masters for begeners, but I make sure the character is easy to use (a Bowman with 5 basic and very different arrows)

[JmOz]

Also I insist on new players playing either Bricks or basic Blasters (One energy blast). I have also allowed on rare occasion a few weapons masters for begeners, but I make sure the character is easy to use (a Bowman with 5 basic and very different arrows)

[Argonaut]

For me, bricks have always been my favourite because as a child I was amazed by people like Arnold and playing a brick allowed me to go beyond the limits of my physical self. Plus, I work out fanatically every day and to play a brick is something that i can relate to.

[Klytus]

I have just the opposite problem. In our gaming group, Bricks are the least favorite archetype! And when we do see bricks, there is nothing "normal" about them. The brick my wife made, Dynamo, is an absorber. DocMan has two bricks: one is a shape-shifter patterned after Odo from DS9 with growth, shrinking and density increase in a Multi-Slot Multipower. He uses a spreadsheet to calculate the point allocations and mixtures of the various combinations. Then there is Star Sentinal, a brick much like Venom (an alien symbiot on a normal man) but with a few extra tricks like a flash-attack and strecthing with a battle staff. DocMan's wife played Anaba - who started out as a brick for simplicity of learning the system. But when we did a redesign, Anaba became something that almost defies an archetype.

The only time I've ever seen anyone in our group play and keep a "pure" brick was a friend who played Crusher - a former college football player who got mutated after taking steriods. He has all the standard brickish traits with two notable exceptions: SPD 5 and DEX 26.

I like bricks, though, which is why my bad-guy bricks tend to be nasty muthers. I wonder if I'm not trying to tell my players "Don't you wish you could be this tough? Pity you aren't a pure brick though..."

[Enforcer84]

I love smashing things.

[assault]

Originally posted by Klytus
The only time I've ever seen anyone in our group play and keep a "pure" brick was a friend who played Crusher - a former college football player who got mutated after taking steriods. He has all the standard brickish traits with two notable exceptions: SPD 5 and DEX 26.

Assault, my default standard character is, of course, a brick, and a very "pure" example of one.

I actually like bricks that have reasonable SPD and DEX. I also like bricks that have flight. I guess, at heart, I'm a Superman fan, more than a fan of the Hulk or the Thing. Or Power Man or She-Hulk, who were more direct inspirations for Assault.

The main reason why Assault doesn't have all this stuff is a rather overdeveloped sense of "fairness", where I've tried not to encroach on other characters shticks. This has become more important under FRED, where Assault has had to learn basic martial arts in order to remain viable.

In fact, though, I wouldn't at all object to brick, even a "heavy" one, having a decent SPD and DEX. They just wouldn't have a bunch of CSLs or Martial Arts.

I like bricks. They're easy to build and play, and are effective. More importantly, there are lots of interesting role models for them, at a whole lot of different power levels.

It's difficult to play a gadgeteer or martial artist well. You need to develop real tactical skill, or you will get stomped. Egoists are often difficult for GMs to handle, and thus a pain, while I've never had much luck with Energy Blasters. (A classic: you are in an underground base, where you don't have room to fly. Green Dragon runs up to you and starts smacking you around.)

I mentioned that I don't have problems with Bricks that are relatively fast. The flipside of that is that I don't object to other characters having decent defences. This particularly applies to Energy Blasters (and some Egoists), who tend to have Force Fields, Force Walls and so on.

These kind of characters can often stand up to as much punishment as "light" bricks. See Defender for further details.

Alan

[Brick]

For me, there is nothing as satisfying as knowing that I can bend steel bars with my bare HANDS. Energy blasts are just too "unpersonal", if you know what I mean, and a Roundhouse Kick may look cooler, but the loud KA-BOOOM a Brick's punches cause (way cooler on a splash page:D) just can't be beaten. Also, being secure in the relative indestructiveness of my body just gives me a real good feeling on the game table. I don't look at the effectiveness of high STR or anything, I just love the thoughts mentioned above. And just to make things clear, I don't come to the table to kick some butt... quite the opposite, as my fellow gamers can attest. Okay, one fight per evening is a must (damn, I have been discovered), but my characters (most of them bricks, who would have guessed) are actually very nice guys, often the spiritual centre of the group - and I swear that is never my true intention.

And by the way, MY players are almost never bricks. In my groups, martial artists are the most popular choice of archetype. Just a question of taste, I guess. But as long as everybody's happy, more power to all.

[Alien Knight]

Bricks are popular in hero for two reasons:

1 -- Point efficency: You just can't beat STR and CON for massive point kickbacks in hero. Leave you plenty of points to play with.

2 -- They're just fun. Bending steel in your bare hands, shrugging off horrible things that would kill any lesser man... Although you don't see too many female players who play bricks. They tend to get more cerebral. Most of the female bricks I've seen have been played by guys. Go figure.

Anyway, in a campaign, all bricks, all the time can work. Had a pretty good run with this team:

Bludgeon -- Viking God of Strength. Strongest brick, kind of weak on the defenses in my opinion, but so what. Brains of a goat.

The Iron Genreal -- Solider (I think) who had gobs of density increase. Highest defenses in the group. Normal intelligence, but more berserks than I've ever seen on one character.

Snarl the Dinosaur Man -- Janitor who could transform at will into a 10' bright orange dinosaur/human hybrid. Member of the Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation. Not the strongest or the toughest, but had tons of recovery and a bunch of super senses. Also the team's aquatic specialist. Go go godzilla. Had brain the size of a walnut.

and out of order:

Bonsai -- Martial artist with shrinking powers. Brick light with about a 35 STR plus martial arts. Functioned as a cross between Arthur from the Tick and Jimminey Cricket.

Oddly enough the campaign was fun while it lasted, we usually got our man and the battlefield rarely survived any conflict the Birck Brigade was involved in. When the weak guy has a 75 STR, EVERYTHING looks like a hammer...

[Cyberknight]

Folks have pretty well covered all the basic reasons that bricks are fun, but let me add something else that I haven't seen mentioned. Being a fan of Growth-based bricks, I have to confess that yes, I love laying down the smack on the bad guys, and yes, I love shrugging off damage that would incapacitate the rest of the team...but my 'guilty pleasure' is the massive PRE attack. There's nothing like watching an entire Viper attack gape as a 22' man-mountain looms over their puny selves :D

Cyberknight

[hybris]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
There's nothing like watching an entire Viper attack gape as a 22' man-mountain looms over their puny selves :DHehe. :D

Doesn't Viper also have a very powerful Growth-based brick - Ripper? - among their ranks?

If so, he might be a perfect match in a fight for your character.

[Cyberknight]

We've met.
It was a *long* fight, and it was a messy fight, and we won't even discuss the collateral damage (Let's just say that the team's insurance agent isn't speaking to Leviathan these days :D ). That's another fun thing about bricks. The fights if two of them meet tend to be spectacular!

Cyberknight

[DocMan]

I like the fact that my "brick"s are strange, unusual, and more flexible than the typical strongman damagesponge version of the Brick.

Maybe I should make a sterotypical brick just to make Klytus happy... Hmmm... how much abuse can I create by putting all my points into STR and defenses?

Doc

[Klytus]

Originally posted by DocMan
I like the fact that my "brick"s are strange, unusual, and more flexible than the typical strongman damagesponge version of the Brick.

Maybe I should make a sterotypical brick just to make Klytus happy... Hmmm... how much abuse can I create by putting all my points into STR and defenses?

Doc
I never said anybody had to play a pure brick... I'm just surprised that in all of my years of Champions (13+ years), I've only run into one player who actually likes the pure-brick.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Klytus
I never said anybody had to play a pure brick... I'm just surprised that in all of my years of Champions (13+ years), I've only run into one player who actually likes the pure-brick.

In my campaign, I have a pure brick. My friend & my older brother also each have a pure brick. So, I can say I've run into a few myself.

[ChuckB]

In most superhero RPGs , bricks are always the easiest to create and play in combat. A high strength stat usually provides offense , some sort of defensive qualities (in Hero it provides PD , REC and STUN) and enhances movement (usually leaping).

Most of my characters in GURPS Supers were all brick-variations because it was the easiest type of character to create in that mess of a system (mind you this was 1st edition Gurps Supers---the game may have improved since).

[loki]

Originally posted by Klytus
I never said anybody had to play a pure brick... I'm just surprised that in all of my years of Champions (13+ years), I've only run into one player who actually likes the pure-brick.

Yeah i can understand that staement! I have run a pure brick, but i do tend to get a litlle bored with them. Although soaking up all that damage can be ALOT of fun.

I think the key to running an interesting brick is REALLY developing a back story and giving them alot of personality. That makes them fun to play and gives them some versitility that they lack in combat. IMHO

[Kristopher]

Would a character with the following physical stats be considered a brick?

40 STR
25 DEX
30 CON
12 BODY

60 END
50 STUN
15 REC

25 (15r) PD
25 (15r) ED

Armor Piercing x1 for STR
15" Flight
2 Levels of Regeneration
Full Life Support (50 points worth)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Would a character with the following physical stats be considered a brick?
I remember someone using the name Demi-Brick on these message boards and it has stuck with me ever since. I generally consider anyone between 31 and 49 Strength to be part of that Demi-Brick class. Anyone 50+ is a full-fledged brick, IMO.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Would a character with the following physical stats be considered a brick?



The answer is subjective, but my answer would be yes.

Their strength is such that they can toss cars and boulders.

Their defenses render them functionally bullet proof in terms of small arms fire.

Their con is high enough, in combination with their defenses, to render them "unlikely to be stunned" in a 12d6 game.

The regeneration is a trait exibited by one of the most quintessential bricks to ever walk -- the hulk.

[Kristopher]

Demi-Brick? That works.

(The GM from the campaign that character was in refered to the range of characters that fall in the grey area between Bricks and Martial Artists as "Hand to Hand" characters.)

PS: I forgot to mention the 5 SPD.