Absolutely Indestructible?

[Dale A. Ward]

Greetings!

I've recently had an idea for a Pulp Hero or Dark Champions game, and I need some suggestions for a build. I could probably just handwave this, but there's a chance that it will be used/exploited by the PCs. In such a case, it is best to have things on paper so that you know how to limit it when it becomes necessary.

Anyway, what I need is a way to make a normally fragile item totally indestructible. I understand that HERO isn't big on absolutes, but this is a Holy Relic... allegedly created by the Hand Of God (or, possibly, someone who thinks he ought to be God).

[Shaft]

I take it that just declaring the focus to be unbreakable is not an option?

[Dale A. Ward]

Well, it's not really a focus for anything in particular, so would that apply?

[Shaft]

Well, it's not really a focus for anything in particular, so would that apply?

It has no powers at all? Not even powers with "no conscious control"?

The Ark of the Covenant, for example, has a power (area effect, NND RKA w/the defense being not to look at it) that has no conscious control when opened. It's a bulky, independant, OAF. I'd also argue that it is unbreakable.

It's power might be undefined right now, but I'm sure you could define it.

[Mike W]

I'm with Shaft on this one. If it has ANY power what soever, just make it an unbreakable focus.

Otherwise, you need lots of hardened armor. about 30 pts hardened is enough to stop just about anything short of a nuclear bomb(since items don't take STUN).

[Shike019]

If I remember correctly an unbreakable focus is "normaly" unbreakable but it has to have a special condition (set at the time of creation) to destory it. Yes I know it sounds sillly, but I think thats how I remember that lim. If it were completely unbreakable then It wouldn't be a focus, but probably "Independent".

[Lucius]

If it does nothing else, an unbreakable focus can probably still act as Armor. Give it X amoung of Armor, levels of Hardened, define it as Unbreakable, and say that whatever the means is to break it, the players aren't going to find it. Make the Armor No Conscious Control too. Then you can save someone's life with it by making bullets bounce off it, but they players can't just walk around holding it with a delusion that it makes them indestructible too.

Lucius Alexander

And an indestructible palindromedary

[Dust Raven]

If it's an unbreakable item, just say it's unbreakable. You're done. It doesn't have to have any Powers or even to be considered to be a Focus. Hell, in a game where character paid points for equipment (and not money), I'd let one have a hunk of invulnerillium for free so long as all it did was sit there and be indestructible. If it's small enough, it has no armor value other than for dramatic purposes (if that bullet hadn't hit my invulnerable zippo, I'd be dead!), and can't really be used as any kind of too... so it has no point value. If there is only one of them, it's not like all your players are gonna get one. You just say no.

[RPMiller]

I'm 110% in agreement with Dust Raven on this one. It almost sounds like this may be a plot device of some sort. If that is the case, don't bother with mechanics just declare it as having whatever properties you want it to have and move on. Use common sense and dramatic license should the players wish to "use" it in some way you hadn't anticipated.

[Edsel]

Page 251 of Fantasy Hero has a small section on absolute effects. It provides two suggestions on how to make something "invulnerable" though it still does not end up being truly absolute.

1) A Force Wall, Hardened, with enough DEF to resist the highest BODY damage roll that that could, given an average attack, be rolled in the campaign.

2) Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% plus Armor Hardened 30 DEF.

But as you have said Hero System is not big on absolutes. Examples are also given of a certain death spell and an "always hits" effect.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'm with Dust Raven on this'un too.
If you feel like it HAS to be written up with a power in order to allow it to take an Invunerable Focus, then go ahead and write it up. If you're stuck, post whatever the thing is and let the boards have a go at it. If we can write up a spoon, we can probably come up with a write up for anything.
Don't worry o'ermuch about the whole "Has to have a way to break the Unbreakable focus" thing. Based on what you said... God created the thing. Make the destruction condition tied to the metaphysical origin... The destruction condition is "God unmakes it".

[tesuji]

actually, the person or being who made it breaking it is specificaloy mentioned in the unbreakable rule...

but more to the point, it would be considered "unbreakable" if the method of breakage was lost to antiquity. So while "everyone" around might think its unbreakable, that still doesn't violate the letter of the rule.

[BoneDaddy]

This actually brings up a question I have mulled over in my head. An unbreakable focus could be very useful in many respects, but how to model it? Power tricks?

OK - hypothesize an unbreakable staff used by a Martial Artist. In addition to kicking copious amounts of butt, could he not olso use the staff to brace open a heavy door? Pry open just about anything he could wedge the staff end into? With sufficient bracing, could he used it to stop an oncoming car (assuming a good hit on the right spot on the car, and good bracing on the other end)? The possibilities of an indestructible lever are endless. How to model this?

[RPMiller]

I smell the spoon discussion starting up again... ;)

[Shaft]

I smell the spoon discussion starting up again... ;)

SPOON: Sense, Perceive, Or Otherwise Notice.

[TaxiMan]

"Bricks! Pay attention! The next 60 seconds could change your life!"

"Tired of wailing on SuperEvilBadGuy with that fragile lightpost or even manhole cover? Having trouble coming up with a hardened bank vault door at the right time? Finding nuclear submarines too bulky and (let's face it) too heavy for some of those pesky energy blasters?

"Well wait no more! With the patented GM-approved Indestructible Focus (tm), you can push those haymakers until the cows come home! No more folded girders and no more splintered trees! The Indestructible Focus (tm) can be used over and over and over again!

"Look at how it dishes out 24d6! Just wipe off the dust and gore and it's ready for action!

"How much would you expect to pay for something like this? 40cp? 60cp? Even 100cp in a Cosmic Campaign?? If you act now, it can be yours for the low, low price of only 1cp! But wait - there's more!

"Having trouble taking half the damage from a Move Through? Want to ignore that 1/3 damage of a Move By? The Indestructible Focus (tm) can provide affordable Armor for just that purpose!

"Did I say affordable? The Indestructible Focus (tm) can even save you points! Need an extra 20 STR for those truly ridiculous displays of power? You can cut the cost of that extra STR in half - or even more!

"GM giving you a hard time blocking a 30' diameter boulder? Constantly hitting you with lasers from 40" away? Now you can afford to Missile Deflect those boulders and laugh at ranged attacks wearing these new stylish Indestructible Focus (tm) Wrist Bracers! There is literally no end to the uses for an Indestructible Focus (tm)! And that's not all!

"If you act now, you can order your Indestructible Focus (tm) in any shape you want! Always wanted your own Oscar? You got it! Feel comfortable holding a Louisville Slugger - of course you do! It's a timeless classic, and it's available now! Tired of those unbalanced, non-aerodynamic penalties you get throwing a tractor-trailer? Dish out more damage and get rid of those annoying ranged penalties with our new Football Focus (tm)!

"Admit it. This is the answer you've been waiting for. Why wait any longer? Act now! Operators are standing by to take your order!"

[TheUnknown]

If you just need it to be indestructable the I would say buy it desolification fully invisible, 0 END, persistant always on. does not pass through solid objects. the desold then works/ is defined as invulnerability. Plus hardened armor with lack of weakness for the time that do affect the desold effect. wa-la instant indestructable.

[TheUnknown]

Also personal immunity bought as a power (naked modifier) usable as attack area 1 hex mega scale planet 0 END persistent always on. that way everything that could hurt it, it becomes immune to thus making it indestrucable. a more cost effective manner of doing it and creative if you ask me.

[Hugh Neilson]

"Bricks! Pay attention! The next 60 seconds could change your life!"

"Tired of wailing on SuperEvilBadGuy with that fragile lightpost or even manhole cover? Having trouble coming up with a hardened bank vault door at the right time? Finding nuclear submarines too bulky and (let's face it) too heavy for some of those pesky energy blasters?

"Well wait no more! With the patented GM-approved Indestructible Focus (tm), you can push those haymakers until the cows come home! No more folded girders and no more splintered trees! The Indestructible Focus (tm) can be used over and over and over again!

"Look at how it dishes out 24d6! Just wipe off the dust and gore and it's ready for action!

"How much would you expect to pay for something like this? 40cp? 60cp? Even 100cp in a Cosmic Campaign?? If you act now, it can be yours for the low, low price of only 1cp! But wait - there's more!

"Having trouble taking half the damage from a Move Through? Want to ignore that 1/3 damage of a Move By? The Indestructible Focus (tm) can provide affordable Armor for just that purpose!

"Did I say affordable? The Indestructible Focus (tm) can even save you points! Need an extra 20 STR for those truly ridiculous displays of power? You can cut the cost of that extra STR in half - or even more!

"GM giving you a hard time blocking a 30' diameter boulder? Constantly hitting you with lasers from 40" away? Now you can afford to Missile Deflect those boulders and laugh at ranged attacks wearing these new stylish Indestructible Focus (tm) Wrist Bracers! There is literally no end to the uses for an Indestructible Focus (tm)! And that's not all!

"If you act now, you can order your Indestructible Focus (tm) in any shape you want! Always wanted your own Oscar? You got it! Feel comfortable holding a Louisville Slugger - of course you do! It's a timeless classic, and it's available now! Tired of those unbalanced, non-aerodynamic penalties you get throwing a tractor-trailer? Dish out more damage and get rid of those annoying ranged penalties with our new Football Focus (tm)!

"Admit it. This is the answer you've been waiting for. Why wait any longer? Act now! Operators are standing by to take your order!"

Offer void where prohibited by GM.

[schir1964]

You might find something useful here:
Thread Linkage: New Power Ideas

- Christopher Mullins

[Manic Typist]

This actually brings up a question I have mulled over in my head. An unbreakable focus could be very useful in many respects, but how to model it? Power tricks?

OK - hypothesize an unbreakable staff used by a Martial Artist. In addition to kicking copious amounts of butt, could he not olso use the staff to brace open a heavy door? Pry open just about anything he could wedge the staff end into? With sufficient bracing, could he used it to stop an oncoming car (assuming a good hit on the right spot on the car, and good bracing on the other end)? The possibilities of an indestructible lever are endless. How to model this?

Yes, but it could still be limited in its utility if a GM thought it was abusive. In the car example, the staff wouldn't break, but maybe whatever it was braced against would. Or, the car would simply become impaled upon the staff, but it would just keep hurtling towards the player, etc.

[TaxiMan]

Offer void where prohibited by GM.

Aw, spoilsport. If a soldier can get an indestructible shield, why not a football star and his mystical SuperBowl XXVII game ball? I'd bet villains would show up just to get nailed by a super-Troy Aikman. They'd probably bring autograph books.

[BoneDaddy]

Yes, but it could still be limited in its utility if a GM thought it was abusive. In the car example, the staff wouldn't break, but maybe whatever it was braced against would. Or, the car would simply become impaled upon the staff, but it would just keep hurtling towards the player, etc.
What do you think of modeling it as a superskill: staff tricks, with an OAF? It could be a lifesaver occasionally, and occasionally a great way to stump the hell out of the GM ("What do you mean 'I shove the staff in it'?!") but the opportunities really are somewhat limited by the size and shape of the indestructible object. Obviously, an indestructible garment could not render it's wearer invincible (although that would explain a lot about Superman...) or else the rule becomes very obviously abusive. On the other hand, using an indestructible pry bar occasionally should not, in my opinion, require buying a weird little strength power (50 strength, only to move an object about 4 inches, 0 END, OAF, etc.) complete with an absurd point expenditure for each possible thing you can do with an indestructible staff (see the spoon referenced above).

[TaxiMan]

Power Skill: Indestructible Focus.

[Dale A. Ward]

Apparently, the consensus is to go back to my original idea of handwaving the whole thing. I wish there was a better alternative, but I tend to agree.

I guess I'll just have to be very clever in how I describe this thing to the players.

[TaxiMan]

Focus: +1 COM, Invisible Power Effects.

[Dale A. Ward]

~lol~ :D

[Lord Liaden]

This actually brings up a question I have mulled over in my head. An unbreakable focus could be very useful in many respects, but how to model it? Power tricks?

OK - hypothesize an unbreakable staff used by a Martial Artist. In addition to kicking copious amounts of butt, could he not olso use the staff to brace open a heavy door? Pry open just about anything he could wedge the staff end into? With sufficient bracing, could he used it to stop an oncoming car (assuming a good hit on the right spot on the car, and good bracing on the other end)? The possibilities of an indestructible lever are endless. How to model this?

Hmm... How about Power Skill, but instead of building Powers into the staff, you could modify the Active Points of whatever you're using the staff against? For example, the DEF of the object you brace the staff against could be used to resist the damage of an impact, or be translated into a comparable amount of STR to hold something in place.

[Dust Raven]

"Bricks! Pay attention! The next 60 seconds could change your life!"

"I didn't come here to make you laugh, I came here to sell you something. The amazing Mastertool Corporation, ace subsidiary of Fly-By-Night Industries, has entrusted who? Me! To show you the handiest and the dandiest kitchen tool you've ever seen, and don't you want to know how it works!

"Well first you get out some ordinary apples. You place the ordinary apples between the patented pans. Then you next get out the tool that is not a slicer, it's not a dicer it's not a chopper in a hopper, what the hell could it possibly be? It is Sledge-O-Matic!"

[Dust Raven]

This actually brings up a question I have mulled over in my head. An unbreakable focus could be very useful in many respects, but how to model it? Power tricks?

OK - hypothesize an unbreakable staff used by a Martial Artist. In addition to kicking copious amounts of butt, could he not olso use the staff to brace open a heavy door? Pry open just about anything he could wedge the staff end into? With sufficient bracing, could he used it to stop an oncoming car (assuming a good hit on the right spot on the car, and good bracing on the other end)? The possibilities of an indestructible lever are endless. How to model this?


Power Skill: Indestructible Focus.

Though I didn't immediately think of using Power Skill, I love the idea. If your Focus is defined as indestructable, and happens to be of a useful shape, like that of a tool of some kind (such as the handy dandy stick or lever), you still probably aren't going to be using it for things like holding a door open or balancing a truck on the tip of it very often. The established mechanic for doing things you should reasonably be able to do, but don't do very often if Power Skill.

[Shaft]

Also personal immunity bought as a power (naked modifier) usable as attack area 1 hex mega scale planet 0 END persistent always on. that way everything that could hurt it, it becomes immune to thus making it indestrucable. a more cost effective manner of doing it and creative if you ask me.

Oh no! I've gone cross-eyed!

;)

Good grope, but that would only make everyone on the planet immune to their own attacks. The object making the planet-wide change would still be affected by attacks that did not originate from itself.

[Manic Typist]

Actually, how about you remove the "Real Item" limitation? Like "Real Weapon," you know?

A weapon bought without the "Real Weapon" limitation is effectively invulenerable, is it not?

Or is that the fever talking?

[TaxiMan]

The Real Weapon lim surely makes a Focus breakable, but the lack of Real Weapon doesn't mean it's indestructible. That's up to you. Real Weapon means a lot of other stuff, like "must be maintained" or "fouled if muddy" if appropriate.

[TheUnknown]

Oh no! I've gone cross-eyed!

;)

Good grope, but that would only make everyone on the planet immune to their own attacks. The object making the planet-wide change would still be affected by attacks that did not originate from itself.

No it would give the character/Object with this power immunity to all powers/attacks that originate within the range (the World) thus making you personally immune to every attack that comes your way.