Is Hero Games responsive enough to customer feedback?

[Yamo]

This is something that's been troubling me lately.

A lot of HERO fans have been pointing out tons and tons of broken rules, wonky bits and generally unsatisfying treatments of various parts of the system under 5th Edition, but so far I've seen no official eratta or revisions to bring the game more into line with what the customer base is calling for.

Wizards of the Coast, whatever their other (economic) motivations, does seem to be genuinally listening to its fans and directly encorporating their feedback into the game rules. They wanted certain spells like Haste, Harm and the Polymorphs fixed and they got it. They wanted various major tweaks to classes like ranger and paladin and they got them. They wanted races to have built-in familiarity with their various racial weapons and they got it. There's a whole lot of major changes to virtually every fundamental system aspect that came about as a direct result of player complaints. D&D fans say "Jump" and WotC asks "How high?"

Now, if you contrast this with HERO, DoJ/Hero Games seems to be falling a little short. There's be absolutely nothing done to address the problems that so many seem to have with Damage Shield overcosting (most agree it's way too expensive), STR undercosting (10 points spent on STR grant 25 points worth of game effect), arbitrary Healing caps, the blind prohibition on Always On Growth/Shrinking, etc.

So why are some companies so eager to bring their games in line with what the fans want while others are so resistant to the idea? Isn't pleasing the fans the whole point? If most people hate the new Damage Shield, common sense says to restore the old one. "The customer is always right."

The fundamental question: Should DoJ/Hero Games take a more compliant and proactive stance to update their game sooner rather than later like WotC does, either with a "HERO 5.5" book or simple official online eratta?

I mean, why should fans of other games get their wants catered to while we get "FREd: Love it or leave it"?

[Killer Shrike]

Well, I support the idea that DOJ have the right to determine the rules, even when I dont agree with them. I figure the people involved have all made some significant sacrifices and obviously work hard on the game, and one of the ensuing perks is that they get to call the shots.


Also, unlike D&D where the system is "closed", in the HERO System if you dont like it, you are actively encouraged to change it for your own games.

[Chris Goodwin]

Part of the idea that the GM is the final defense against abuse is the idea that the GM (heck, the group as a whole) gets to change the rules if they don't like them.

There are no Game Police that are going to come take away your books if you change something.

Steve agrees with most if not all of the changes he's made, and I don't think that of the very few he might be having second thoughts over, he's going to change any of them. He's the one who got the investers together to buy Hero Games, he's the one calling the shots. If someone else buys Hero Games from DOJ then they'll call the shots. I didn't like many of his changes, but it's his prerogative, just as it's ours to ignore the parts we don't like.

[Talon]

Blargh. I take real offense to the tone of your post. You often post "controversial" statements and then calm down, but this one seems more deliberately provocative than polite discussion would permit. Perhaps that's not how it was meant, but that's how it sounds to me.

The changes for 3.5 are hardly everything that people have been clamoring for, and, while welcome, do nothing to fix significant portions of the system that are broken (e.g., metamagic, multiclassed spellcasting).

Moreover, the changes are secondary in nature; none of the basic mechanics are changing, just how they are applied. This means that a) people are not being forced to upgrade to 3.5, and b) 3 and 3.5 are rules-compatible. If this were not the case (say, if Skill points were replaced), people would be screaming to high heaven, and rightly so, about how their books and supplements were becoming useless.

I'll be the first to admit that the 4th -> 5th changes were relatively small compared to what could have been done. There are plenty of rules changes I would like to see made, and will be pushing for once the time comes around. In the meantime, changing basic rules would hurt the company by making much of their product line obselete and alienating the customer base. Imagine if Steve came out tomorrow and said STR costs 2x: every published character would be wrong, and thousands (if not millions :)) of Hero customers would be pissed. Instead, the nature of Hero makes it quite easy for people who want change to make it themselves via house rules.

I sincerely hope that 3.5 succeeds and convinces Steve to do a 5.5 in a year or two, and that many of the now-debated rules issues are addressed. I think it would be a poor business decision to act sooner.

[Yamo]

Blargh. I take real offense to the tone of your post. You often post "controversial" statements and then calm down, but this one seems more deliberately provocative than polite discussion would permit.

Provacative to who? I operate under the assumption that the Hero Games staff are professionals and, as professionals, don't react to even drastic criticism of their business model as a personal attack. If I'm wrong about that, I'm wrong, but I don't suspect that I am.


The changes for 3.5 are hardly everything that people have been clamoring for, and, while welcome, do nothing to fix significant portions of the system that are broken (e.g., metamagic, multiclassed spellcasting).

Everything? No. Something? Yes.

And fixing Strength and Damage Shield wouldn't be changing the system's core fundamentally, either. Some costs would be different, but you'd still be buying stuff with points and doing 3d6 roll-unders to resolve stuff.


I sincerely hope that 3.5 succeeds and convinces Steve to do a 5.5 in a year or two, and that many of the now-debated rules issues are addressed. I think it would be a poor business decision to act sooner.

Perhaps.

Frankly, though, I made this post because I'm JEALOUS. Damn jealous, in fact. The idea of an RPG fanbase being catered to like that by the company, even if the action taken isn't complete or perfect yet, is really, really appealing. I'd prefer to see it as the industry standard: Rapid, widespread polling of fans and swift encorporation of as many of their suggestions and criticisms as possible into the rules canon.

Hey, I can dream.

[tiger]

While I can understand some of you points I think you over looking a few things.

Not every agrees that the prices or changes are bad or wrong. So by fixing the to suit some you ignore those that have no problem with it.

All stats have been the same since the 80 and now they under/over priced?

Could it be that perhaps Damage Shield was incorrect in the first place instead of the changes being wrong?

Now while I'm not saying this is the case or not, it is something to consider when saying the DOJ/Hero doesn't seem to have the concern of the player fully in mind. After all seems to me if they didn't there would be a Q&A section on the boards or the boards for that matter.

Frankly ,flame me if you like, I see 3.5 the proof that they put 3.0 out before they made sure it was ready to go. Perhaps the quest for money was more important that the quest to make a better game.

[Yamo]

Not every agrees that the prices or changes are bad or wrong. So by fixing the to suit some you ignore those that have no problem with it.

All stats have been the same since the 80 and now they under/over priced?

Could it be that perhaps Damage Shield was incorrect in the first place instead of the changes being wrong?

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. All I know is that the complaints are remarkably common. Why is that? How commonplace is this belief really?

So why not survey the fanbase in an organized fashion prior to deciding? Comment cards at conventions and sent out with books and possibly even online polling could all help here.

Find out what the majority of the fans want in as fair and concise a manner as possible and then do it ASAP. It's just common sense to me.

Listen more, act quickly and decisevely on what you hear. That's all I'm saying.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Yamo
A lot of HERO fans have been pointing out tons and tons of broken rules, wonky bits and generally unsatisfying treatments of various parts of the system under 5th Edition, but so far I've seen no official eratta or revisions to bring the game more into line with what the customer base is calling for.I think you're severely overstating two things here. One, "tons and tons of broken rules." Two, "the customer base."

You don't mention "tons" of broken rules; you mention four. And of the four, the only one I think there's any kind of real consensus on is Damage Shield. And even there, there's only agreement (a strong majority, not unanimity even on this) that the current cost seems too high... there's no such agreement on how to "fix" it.

You mention "the customer base" as if it's some kind of contiguous thing. It isn't. There's lots of disagreement amongst Herodom Assembled on what they like, what they don't like, etc. And the slice of Herodom Assembled represented on the boards here is only a small fraction of Herodom Assembled as a whole. (For example, in my FTF group of nine players, only two of us ever come to herogames.com, even though everyone in the group is computer literate. And of the two who do frequent these pages, one has been MIA from the group lately, so it may actually be one out of eight at this point.)

Widespread recognition of which rules are working and which rules aren't comes only over time. When 4th ed. went to 5th, there were several rules that had a strong majority of players in favor of changing them. Aid was too cheap. HA needed a higher Active Point cost. Racial Characteristic Maxima were broken. Linked needed to be greatly clarified. And 5th Edition addressed all of those things.

It's too early, IMO, to be worrying about a new edition (or even a revised 5th edition). When the time comes, if the vast majority of players still think Damage Shield is overpriced (for example), I'm sure Hero Games will consider acting on that information. They're all reasonable folks. :)

[tiger]

Originally posted by Yamo
Listen more, act quickly and decisevely on what you hear. That's all I'm saying.

I can agree with this. I also beleive Hero has done a good job of this.

[Yamo]

You mention "the customer base" as if it's some kind of contiguous thing. It isn't. There's lots of disagreement amongst Herodom Assembled on what they like, what they don't like, etc.

Exactly. Which is why I recommended (above) widespread and at least semi-scientific polling both online and via comment cards in all HERO products that majority opinions can be firmly established and acted upon.

[Tempuswolf]

Originally posted by Yamo
The fundamental question: Should DoJ/Hero Games take a more compliant and proactive stance to update their game sooner rather than later like WotC does, either with a "HERO 5.5" book or simple official online eratta?

I mean, why should fans of other games get their wants catered to while we get "FREd: Love it or leave it"?

It is to laugh.

DOJ where the designer answers each and every rules question any fan cares to post. Hero Games where the motto is "Use these rules or not as you see fit to make your game work", with a section for changing the rules in its primary rulebook.

vs.

Just one word about WotC: Psionics

[Yamo]

It is to laugh.

Nobody said that WotC was a perfect outfit. I sure don't patronize them.

My position is only that its willingness to solicit extensive customer feedback and encorporate a significant portion of it into the official rules canon in a relatively quick fashion is admirable and should be emulated.

I can admire that about the company without endorsing other aspects of it.

[djday38]

Personally, I don't think the guys at DOJ could do much more if they tried.
People forget quickly how bad the previous company was, the years without any new product, the empty promises, etc,etc.

Since Steve & Darren have taken over we have a new product each month! and a high quality one each time.

Saying they are not responsive to their customer base is so out of order I can't believe anyone would even think it.
How often does Steve post to these boards?

I would rather look at the glass as nine tenths full than one tenth empty.

rgds
Dean

[MarkusDark]

I believe that DoJ does more than any other company to be responsive to its customer base. Their comments and replies to topics on this board have been phenomenal when compared to other company's Customer Support systems.

I, myself, had just recently asked a question about level pricing. I was more curious as to WHY it was done that way instead of if it should or shouldn't be, but eh, what can one do? The great thing about a toolbox system is that you can do what you want with it, when you want. They have an online Errata and FAQ when something needs to be better explained or a typo is found. Unlike Wizards of the Coast, DoJ is not a multi-million dollar company (hopefully, someday). They try their best to keep pricing down while giving the player the most they can for their money. If they offered a change, not only would every previous book they currently have printed now be an economic loss, but the MAIN problem I have heard D&D players making is "I have hundreds of dollars of books that are now going to be useless". I personally wouldn't want to piss off my customers like that.

If you don't like something, make a house rule and change it. One of my GM's refuses to use Megascale - uses 4.0's rules on Haymaker and even uses 2.0 rules on Reduced End costs.

To say that those of DoJ are not responsive to their customers is about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

[Yamo]

Personally, I don't think the guys at DOJ could do much more if they tried.

It's already been stated what they can do: Solicit opinions on problem areas and blind spots in the rules from the customers and then encorporate fixes for the most common complaints into the main rules in a relatively swift fashion.

Use comment cards. Use the internet. Use conventions. Get the data, use the data.


People forget quickly how bad the previous company was, the years without any new product, the empty promises, etc,etc.

The failures of the old company do not preclude criticism of the current one. Criticism of the current one does not constitute a rejection of the whole of its work.


but the MAIN problem I have heard D&D players making is "I have hundreds of dollars of books that are now going to be useless". I personally wouldn't want to piss off my customers like that.

But WotC still stands to make a mint off the whole affair, indicating that the majority appreciates the new revisions and will support them. The bottom line is that most agree they make the game itself better, and that end justifies the means many times over for most.


To say that those of DoJ are not responsive to their customers is about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

They're plenty responsive as far as supporting the existing rules, just not in one other key way that they should be: A willingness to undertake significant updates and changes to the rules in a timely fashion in response to customer feedback.

[TheEmerged]

Yamo, I have to ask, so please don't take offense here.

You're actually suggesting WotC has better customer service than HERO?

If so, have you actually DEALT with WotC customer service?

We've been trying to get obvious, foundational, mechanical errors corrected in the PsiHB pretty much since release. The general response has been to tell us to make use of the OGL to make our own products or shut up -- and even the best response we've gotten is Mark Jindra's statement that (paraphrase) "Psychic combat works, except for the attack chance scaling" -- which is manifestly and obviously not true, even with a cursory examination.

What's more, it's increasingly clear that most of the 3.5 changes were NOT made as a response to public criticisms; too many of the wrong ones are being made. It turns out the 3.5 ranger changes, for example, appear to have been made as the result of a massive playtest -- of 5 rangers.

[Yamo]

You're actually suggesting WotC has better customer service than HERO?

I'm suggesting that they're better at serving their customer in one specific way that Hero Games would do well to emulate, yes.

In a wider sense, I think you can see how that question is clearly somewhat loaded.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Yamo
But WotC still stands to make a mint off the whole affair, indicating that the majority appreciates the new revisions and will support them. The bottom line is that most agree they make the game itself better, and that end justifies the means many times over for most.

I am sure WotC will do just that. Make a mint. Now, care to compare the player/customer database of d20 to that of Hero? As it stands now, DoJ is not making a mint. How about staff size? DoJ barely had enough extra funds to hire on a much needed assistant layout person. Even if DoJ went ahead and revamped its ruleset, it would take away the resources from the other products being produced and delay their release. I think that, if in any case, DoJ is listening to their customers by cranking out the long awaited Fantasy Hero and other additional resources.

How many people would rather see Damage Shield changed over getting their hands on Fantasy Hero?

[Yamo]

How many people would rather see Damage Shield changed over getting their hands on Fantasy Hero?

My guess: All the Champs players who don't do fantasy. ;)

Seriously, though, I'd gladly trade a "twelve new books a year" schedule for an "eleven new books and a significantly revised and improved FREd this year" one.

[djday38]

Well I am a "champs guy" and i would much rather see Fantasy Hero or any other quality product and make use of the material than see a few rules changed, when we already have a great new edition for the game.

you know why? because if anything bothered me that much rules why I would either change it or not use it.

Simple as that.

Why can't you do the same?

rgds
Dean

[JmOz]

The simple fact is there is one major broken rule in hero (Damage shield), the other three you list are not and I will explain why:

STRENGTH TOO CHEAP: This is a common myth, one must factor into all of the advantages it provides with the simple fact that similar to an EC it has downsides, this goes for all characteristics BTW. Unlike an EC I Don't get a say of what abilities I get, so thus it is more of a savings...

SHINKING/GROWING no Always on: This is wonky, I will admit, BUT it is not a major problem (Here's a simple fix, ALLOW ALWAYS ON), by the way it is normaly cheaper to build it as individual powers...

Healing: The power needs a stoping factor, a one page description of options would have been nice...

I have my own gripes BTW: Think Instant Change and Regeneration should be different powers for instance, the limitation on using Foci in VarLim (BTW I suspect SL dislikes this lim, but left it in for old time sake), DSimmon's customer service skills, to name a few

This is not worth changing, you must choose in buisness to either trust yourself or to allow public oppinion to sway you

[Lord Liaden]

I'm afraid I have not heard any "clamoring" for rules changes, as in large numbers of people saying that such-and-such is a seriously bad rule; the sole exception is Damage Shield, and as Derek Hiemforth pointed out, no concensus has emerged as to how to correct that. Many posters to the boards have expressed dislike of one rule or another, but for everyone who does, someone else says that that very rule is one that they really like, or at least doesn't mind (including the current cost of Strength). As far as I can tell, there is virtually no agreement on what if anything should be changed. Given that, should DoJ really be expending time and energy conducting polls? Personally, I'd rather they concentrate on publishing books. And what kind of precedent would it set if Steve Long changed a rule every time a vocal minority started clamoring for it?

I should point out that before Fifth Edition was published, Steve and the Hero Games administration of the time spent literal years soliciting fan input on the rules, via mail comments and playtesting. The rules were revised, tested, commented on, and revised again. I don't think there's any rpg ruleset that has received more fan input than the HERO System. I remember reading an Internet chat which Steve did a few years ago describing the forthcoming fifth edition, in which he mentioned that requiring Continuous in the Damage Shield construct was a logical clarification that had been raised in comments by several fans. You may not agree with how he finally decided to implement the suggestion, but he did listen.

As for responding to fans, what other company solicits their input on what they want to see in every major new book before it's even written? The prompt responses to rules questions and extensive FAQ and Errata files have already been mentioned. Other examples of responding to the fans that I've seen since DoJ took over:

After FREd came out, fans complained that it lacked sample characters and advice for running different genres. Shortly thereafter The HERO System Genre by Genre PDF was written;

Fans asked for more pre-generated material. We now have the UNTIL Superpowers Database;

Fans asked for more adventures. We will soon have Champions Battlegrounds, and later Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds, even with doubts in the company that they'll sell;

Fans asked for an entry-level "lite" version of the rules. Steve Long has promised to write The HERO System Sidekick as soon as he gets the chance, even though before the issue was raised by enough fans he had had no interest or intention in doing so.

To me, this is outstanding company responsiveness to the expressed desires of fans that really matter. Changing rules according to the shifting winds of remarks by a minority of posters is a far lower priority to me.

Yamo, you phrased your opening post as a question, but your responses since then have seemed to indicate that your intention is to persuade us that DoJ is not being sufficiently responsive. If the former, I'd say that the responses from posters to this thread have given you a solid answer. If the latter, I don't think it's working. ;)

[JmOz]

LL, thank you for saying what I could not find the words for.

The one thing I will add is if you don't like something change it...

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Yamo
I'm suggesting that they're better at serving their customer in one specific way that Hero Games would do well to emulate, yes.

In a wider sense, I think you can see how that question is clearly somewhat loaded.

No, I do not agree it is loaded -- I'm stating that I feel that WotC isn't even succeeding in the one specific way. At best, they're giving lip service to it while ignoring more substantiative complaints. I will of course reserve judgement until I actually have 3.5 in my hands, but what I've seen is more polish than improvement.

/exageration on
"Hey, our customers are requesting that we rebalance the late portion of the system. Let's give gnomes a new favored class and a weapon skill!"
/exageration off

"Hey, our customers are requesting that we rebalance the Quicken Spell feat so it compares to Haste, especially for spontaneous casters. Let's nerf Haste, and not eliminate the fact that spontaneous casters can't use Quicken!"

Worst case scenarios? Maybe. But it speaks of many of the 3.5 changes they've released.

[GestaltBennie]

Well;, there are things in the VIPER manuscript that wouldnt have been written had it not been for the "what do *you* want to see" thread. Does that count?

Scott Bennie

[TheEmerged]

And BTW... Personally I find the change to make Suppress self-stacking far more troubling than Damage Shield's new cost requirements (and fact that they don't limit the worst case IMO). I don't *like* the new DS cost requirements, but they are at best the third most serious problem.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
No, I do not agree it is loaded -- I'm stating that I feel that WotC isn't even succeeding in the one specific way. At best, they're giving lip service to it while ignoring more substantiative complaints. I will of course reserve judgement until I actually have 3.5 in my hands, but what I've seen is more polish than improvement.

/exageration on
"Hey, our customers are requesting that we rebalance the late portion of the system. Let's give gnomes a new favored class and a weapon skill!"
/exageration off

"Hey, our customers are requesting that we rebalance the Quicken Spell feat so it compares to Haste, especially for spontaneous casters. Let's nerf Haste, and not eliminate the fact that spontaneous casters can't use Quicken!"

Worst case scenarios? Maybe. But it speaks of many of the 3.5 changes they've released.

Don't forget, "Hey, there's issues with using multiple Empower and Extend Spell feats on the Stat Boosting Spells to turn the Stat Boosting Items into irrelevancies. Let's cut the duration and make the boosting number a constant. That'll fix the problem."

And, "Hey, mathematically, we realized that power attack might have some problems when used with light weapons, and despite the fact nobody else has noticed, we'll fix Power Attack."

WotC should be commended for making changes to their core system. And, yeah, they are changing things that need to be changed. How Andy wants it changed. Not necessarily how anyone else wants it changed.

You've read any of the ranger threads? Mystic Theurge? The complaints have already started and the books aren't even out yet.

And, well, we've got Damage Shield. Which is a pain. But not a crippler.

Everything we've asked for, everything I've asked for, we've gotten. Except for Errata/Clarifications in Fred. I don't know that that's such a big deal.

Part of me wonders if WotC would be releasing 3.5 now if any of the original creators of 3.0 still worked for the company. But that's neither a here nor there.

D

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Yamo

Listen more, act quickly and decisevely on what you hear. That's all I'm saying.

Starting Hero with FREd I don't know what the changes were except as has been posted on the board. DoJ does an excellent job of listening, Steve regularly posts on the Company Questions thread as well as answering specific questions in the Q&A section.

I don't necessarily want to see them act quickly. That path will lead to fad of the week rules changes. Reading the thread on the damage shield that is currently going on in Hero System Discussion some people have presented work-arounds, some people have presented justification as to why its not overpriced, and other opinions have been presented. Overall it didn't look like even a significant percentage of the people registered to the board joined in the discussion. People are already complaining about D&D3.5 being released too soon after the release of the 3ed. Do you think people won't complain if there is a yearly release of new Hero rules? I would rather see the company producing good products as opposed to being bogged down in rules debates all the times. I would bet there is a list somewhere of rules comments that have been made and it would be reviewed when and if they do decide to revise the current edition.

They do act decisively, you just happen to not agree with the decisions made ;). As has been posted you brought up four rules that people may have serious issue with. I would bet people have issues with more than four rules in most other games.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by BlackSword
They do act decisively, you just happen to not agree with the decisions made ;). As has been posted you brought up four rules that people may have serious issue with. I would bet people have issues with more than four rules in most other games.

Heck, I can think of more than four problems I have with the Psionic Handbook alone...


Multiple Ability Dependency
Psychic combat doing temporary ability damage
Psychic combat having no real effect on the non-psionic, except for Mind Blast (see below)...
Mind Blast, effectively a 5th level power (shouldn't be available to a psion before 10th level or a psychic warrior before 13th) that absolutely hoses any non-psionic in a 60' cone, can be manifested as early as 3rd level without tweaking and can be manifested repeatedly by 7th level.
The fact that a literal interpretation of the rules makes psionic MORE VISIBLE than magic (cf Displays)
The fact that the "to hit" aspect of psychic combat doesn't scale up in level, while the "dodge" aspect does because of Will saves
The fact that, with the exception of Mind Blast (see above), there's almost never a time that manifesting a psychic combat mode would be more effective than an equivalent leveled spell
The fact that psychic defense modes cost PP to activate and can only be used against a single attack -- leaving attacked psions with a lose-lose proposition (lose the ability to manifest powers because you took TAD, or lose the ability to manifest powers because you spent the PP).
The structure most (not all, cf Call Weaponry) of the powers are constructed -- grandfathering something that was eliminated during playtesting and therefore creating power redundency
The lack of a built-in scaling mechanic for damage powers, despite the obvious existance of a mechanic allowing for it (cf Call Weaponry)
The fact that the Metapsionic cap only applies to powers that have metapsionic feats applied to them, causing some problems (cf Mind Blast comment above, and the Psychofeedback power)
ETC

[Polaris]

Greetings,

Any game system out there can be modified by a GM. I do not believe that is a particulaly astonishing part of most games. The generic game systems (to which I believe Hero is by far the best) allows for more modification.

This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

Just my opinion.

Polaris

[Alibear]

Personally, I think that damage shield, now, makes sense within the rules system and I applaud Steve & Co. for fixing it. I personally love the new gangfire rules and they make lots of sense.

I'm still not happy about double dipping, NCM and focus limitations but nobody likes everything, right?


Any changes made will please some and leave others cold. You can't please everybody all the time..:D

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Alibear
Personally, I think that damage shield, now, makes sense within the rules system and I applaud Steve & Co. for fixing it.

And there you go - the exception that proves the rule. :rolleyes:

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Polaris
Greetings,

Any game system out there can be modified by a GM. I do not believe that is a particulaly astonishing part of most games. The generic game systems (to which I believe Hero is by far the best) allows for more modification.

This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

Just my opinion.

Polaris

Now your mixing two different rants :D, HD has some design problems IMO

[tiger]

Originally posted by Polaris
What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

The thing to remember, that I think people are overlooking, is if Dan takes the time to adjust HD to fit everone's house rules we'll never see the program.

Now, having said that, while I'm sure he can make some adjustments to allow thing to be programed in I doubt that he can think of everything. While some Char Gen programs allowed you to add in things I can't think of any official programs that allowed you to change the rules of the game.

Also, he has asked what people would like and is adjusting V2. I doubt that everything everyone wants will be in there but he is adding new things.

AS I've said before I think DOJ/Hero has done a nice job of listening to the customer. I think alot of the changes do make since.

If your always 3 foot tall then why should you buy a power? Just buy the effect and call it good.

I have no problem with Damage Shield as it is now. I thought it was to cheap for the effect it had before.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Polaris
Greetings,

Any game system out there can be modified by a GM. I do not believe that is a particulaly astonishing part of most games. The generic game systems (to which I believe Hero is by far the best) allows for more modification.

This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

Just my opinion.

Polaris As I understand it, v2 is addressing this concern; or at least this concern is being considered in its design.

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Polaris
This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

In order to make Hero Designer V1 do what all of those customers want it to (break the rules), it would require a complete reworking of the code. V2.0, currently in development, will have a Campaign Rules section that will allow for stepping outside the bounds of the Hero System to some degree.

So we do listen. And we even implement change when it makes sense for us to do so. ;)

[Simon]

Originally posted by Polaris
Greetings,

Any game system out there can be modified by a GM. I do not believe that is a particulaly astonishing part of most games. The generic game systems (to which I believe Hero is by far the best) allows for more modification.

This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

Just my opinion.

Polaris
OK...I give...I'll step into this one for a moment....

HD v1 was designed with one primary purpose: to implement the rules of the Hero System, 5th Edition.

Why was it implemented this way? Because, when Steve Long contacted me and went over the goals of the app, he said that, first and foremost, he wanted it to adhere to the rules of the system.

So it does.

Since its release, there has been growing demand for ways to bend or ignore some of the rules. To the extent that I am able, I will be working this into v2. For example:
<ul>
<li>Modifier "intelligence" (the bit that determines what Modifiers can be assigned) can be toggled on or off in the app<?li>
<li>Campaign Rules (as Ben mentioned) will allow you to specify how you want to follow a wide variety of rules (selling off more than one figured characteristic, max active points on a MP slot, etc.). Will all of the sundry rules and regulations be included in these screens? Probably not. As demand rises for any that are missing, they will be added in....but at the outset I will include those that I feel will be of use to people.<?li>
<li>New hierarchical template structures will allow for MUCH easier creation (and maintenance) of custom character templates. This will allow folks to create all those custom/new abilities listed in the supplements and share them with everyone else. The online repositories will also assist in both creating and accessing this information.</li>
</ul>

Now, on the subject of this thread:

First off, a disclaimer: I am not a Hero Games employee. I'm just some guy they contracted to write a chargen app. That's all. I do that in my "spare time".

That said, I (like many others) find the insinuation (or even outright statement) that HG doesn't listen to the customers'fan base to be laughable. I've got to assume that the poster is just trying to get a rise from folks, because no one's head can possibly be that firmly shoved up their ass.....the spine just can't take that kind of pressure.

HG has been responding to customers' desires like no company I've ever seen. Steve Long is perpetually on these boards answering questions, updating the errata and the FAQ as issues are found with the existing rules, and giving guidance to everyone. What more do you want? Or are you just complaining because he hasn't implemented the changes that YOU want?

Ben has been working on the website, adding in functionality that folks ask for, making changes where and when needed, and generally doing just about everything he can to keep the fanbase on the site happy.

Darren comes into the weekly chats, answers questions about the company, let's folks know what's going on (in ways which the vast majority of companies never even consider doing) and makes sure that everyone stays informed on the status and direction of Hero Games.

And Tina puts the whip to the lot of 'em ;)

Seriously, I have NEVER had anything but the best to say about this company....they treat their contractors well, they treat their customers well, and they are more responsive than we really have a right to expect.

[MarkusDark]

the original complaint, I feel, was more about a single facet of 'customer support' - where what appears to be an obvious flaw in the core rule system is corrected and a new print of the system is made. After reading his responses, he doesn't seem to imply that DoJ is 100% ignoring the customers, just in this one area. He compares it to the 3.5 'upgrade' that WotC is doing with the 3rd Ed.

And, as it has been stated in various other topics and threads, DoJ does not have the resources that WotC has, and cannot simply rewrite, relayout and reprint a document without it severely impacting other aspects of the company, let alone just the costs involved. DoJ responds to its customers in the most time effective and cost effective way it can - and, IMO, has been a phenomenal job thus far.

[Yamo]

And, as it has been stated in various other topics and threads, DoJ does not have the resources that WotC has, and cannot simply rewrite, relayout and reprint a document without it severely impacting other aspects of the company, let alone just the costs involved. DoJ responds to its customers in the most time effective and cost effective way it can - and, IMO, has been a phenomenal job thus far.

That may be true. I guess I've pretty well stated my ideal handling of the rules, though: Regular updates every few (3-4, most likely) years based on extensive surveying of customers in the downtime. No point in repeating it again.

Maybe it's practical, maybe it's not, but that's what a certain other company is doing and I think it's a great plan.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo
That may be true. I guess I've pretty well stated my ideal handling of the rules, though: Regular updates every few (3-4, most likely) years based on extensive surveying of customers in the downtime. No point in repeating it again.

Maybe it's practical, maybe it's not, but that's what a certain other company is doing and I think it's a great plan.

Perhaps after DoJ has been around for 3-4 years, we could look into that. ;)

[tiger]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Perhaps after DoJ has been around for 3-4 years, we could look into that. ;)

Frankly I don't want to have to buy new books every 3-4 years myself, WOTC, GW both like to do that.

I seriously doubt that updating the rules is the driving force behind it.

[Polaris]

I stand respectfully corrected...:) I am happy to hear that HD v 2.0 will include opportunities for people to 'step outside' of the rules...:)

Polaris

[Vondy]

Well, well, well,

Personally, I'm not interested in plonking down $50 more dollars for Fred.5 if all its going to include is two or three rules changes I don't need.

That 50 bucks is two more brand spanking new, hot off the shelf, quality products that will expand my library.

And really, with the exception of Damage Shield, I don't think any of the things noted really pose anything akin to "broken" mechanics or things that have a significant consensus of negative opinion about them.

Sure, I have thinks I don't like:

Damage Shield

1/2 was too cheap. 11/2 is to expensive. So I house ruled it. It now costs +1. And I saved myself 50 dollars....

Regeneration

Should still be its own power. I think the healing model, while functional, is wonky. How did I handle this. I took the page from my 4E binder and slipped it into Fred, with the notes on the Lost Limbs and Organs and Ressurection Adders.

DOJ could change things like this, but I don't think its a good idea for them to do so, business wise, or system wise. In most cases you are going to annoy as many people as you make happy with a change.

DOJ isn't just responsive, they're preemptive. They ask us what we want in products before they're even written. Could they be more responsive to things people don't like?

Here's something they could do. Next to the FAQ they could have a controversial rules link with what they perceive the best alternate methods are. They could even have writers guidlelines and pick which unnoficial options to post.

Other than that I don't perceive a need for them to change things people don't like when their brokeness is largely subjective in the first place.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Yamo
Exactly. Which is why I recommended (above) widespread and at least semi-scientific polling both online and via comment cards in all HERO products that majority opinions can be firmly established and acted upon.

I work for a marketing company. I don't do any of it (I'm the IT guy), but I can tell you from first hand experience that scientific or even semi-scientific polling is a myth. Only 5 of every 100 survey cards ever included in a book, sent in the mail, or handed out at a show is ever sent back.

Aroooo

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Aroooo
I work for a marketing company. I don't do any of it (I'm the IT guy), but I can tell you from first hand experience that scientific or even semi-scientific polling is a myth. Only 5 of every 100 survey cards ever included in a book, sent in the mail, or handed out at a show is ever sent back.

Aroooo

What's more -- Steve and Co. haven't released any sales info I'm aware of, but I doubt the entirety of HERO's market right now is high enough to get into mathematically-valid territory (>40K) even at 100% participation.

What's more, every voluntary poll has a single flaw that nearly invalidates it -- for the most part, only people that have a reason to care about the results participate. By its nature, that's going to get people that don't like the status quo.

[Hermit]

Sent an Email late last night to Ben, I got a response today.

Heck yes they respond fast, and they clearly do care.
I've never seen better fan support.

Thanks, Ben and the rest of DoJ

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
What's more -- Steve and Co. haven't released any sales info I'm aware of, but I doubt the entirety of HERO's market right now is high enough to get into mathematically-valid territory (>40K) even at 100% participation.

What's more, every voluntary poll has a single flaw that nearly invalidates it -- for the most part, only people that have a reason to care about the results participate. By its nature, that's going to get people that don't like the status quo.

True. Most folks only provide feedback of any sort when they are unhappy/unsatisfied with a product. Most folks who are happy tend not to say anything.

Aroooo

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Aroooo
Most folks who are happy tend not to say anything.And if they do say something around here, they're likely to be accused of "cheerleading." :rolleyes: :)

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
And if they do say something around here, they're likely to be accused of "cheerleading." :rolleyes: :)

Give me an "F"!
Give me an "R"!
Give me an "E"!
Give me an "D"!

Sorry, had to do it. Spent too many Friday nights watching my daughter cheer at high school games :)

But the sentiment is real just the same.

Aroooo

[Monolith]

While I really have nothing constructive to add to this discussion I just cannot let a rant/junior flamewar go by without being involved in it. :)

While it is true that there are certain rules that many people do not like (the new Damage Shield being the most obvious) the 100 active posters (and by active I mean people who post multiple times daily, and thus make the most noise - myself included in this group) are in no way a consensus as to how the entire fanbase of several thousand feel. So while 50 vocal people might be squawking about Damage Shield that really has no bearing on how 5,000 people feel about it.

My general view is that when people are satisfied with something they do not make a lot of "noise" about it. They just sit quietly and wait for the next product. By that indication there are several hundred posters on these message boards who do not seem to have a major problem with the Damage Shield, for example. That would seem to indicate that the nay-sayers are in the minority, not the majority.

[Fur Face]

I became a Hero fan when they were still owned by Cybergames, but I wouldn't have stayed a fan for too long without the support from Ben Seeman. He's da man! I was very pleased when he came to DOJ, because whenever I had an issue it was with the management of Cybergames, not the way Ben tried to provide customer support. :cool:

There really isn't any problem with their support. In fact, its the best I've ever seen anywhere. The problem is one of perception. Because they care, and because they are accessible, sometimes we expect too much (like the fiasco about getting free upgrades from Creation Workshop to Hero Designer).

Besides, if I start to get feeling too good about myself, I can always go to the Hero Designer forum and listen to Dan tell me exactly how he feels! :D

[Polaris]

Fur Face,

I agree whole heartedly! Ben did a great job back then, and DoJ is very fortunate to have his talents working for them now. He is top notch!

Monolith, I agree that the fans on this board represent the most dedicated of fans (typically, or at least the ones that have ready access to the Internet). To make complete rule changes based upon such a small sample (while being justified if DoJ wanted to do so) should not be considered "science". My earlier criticism of the treatment of customer requests for the ability to have HD give a rule warning rather than rule enforcement was based upon some of the thread over in the HD forum. I now see that they have decided to allow us to toggle the rules we want on/off. That is most excellent news!

I enjoy reading the criticisms and defense of various rules... it helps me better understand how a rule works, some of the (possible) implications of the rules, and some possible variants.
The ability to 'modify' rules in your own campaign is a given in theory, but in practice the ability becomes real when you have more understanding of some variants of rules (seeing how people have developed variations to the rules can help people like me better see how to come up with variations of my own). You and many of the others are a big help in that... even when it may seem to some that all that is happening is attack/defense of the game.

Polaris

PS: It is also worth noting that many of the players here on the board, while very important to the business viability of DoJ, are not the ones that DoJ needs to attract right now. Maintaining this fan base is not the major challenge... DoJ needs to attract NEW gamers that are not necessarily represented by this group. Just a thought... (PLEASE NOTE: This is NOT to mean disprespect to any of us here, or to imply that this is the view of DoJ... just my own personal take on what DoJ should focus on).

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Polaris
Greetings,

Any game system out there can be modified by a GM. I do not believe that is a particulaly astonishing part of most games. The generic game systems (to which I believe Hero is by far the best) allows for more modification.

This argument (that Hero actively encourages people to change the rules they do not want) seems a bit off the mark to me when I go into the HD board and find people wanting the ability to incorporate house rules into the template, and are told "these are the rules of 5th edition, and HD will never allow you to do it different". People have pointed that official hero products have contradicted the rules that HD enforces, and were told that HD will not be changed (thus people can not make some of the characters from the supplements in HD).

What would be so difficult in giving these fans the opportunity to have HD just give a warning that what they want to do is outside of the "official" rules? This would seem to make it MORE of a program set to a game system that "encourages" GMs to change the rules they want to change.

Just my opinion.

Polaris

I think this warning instead of hard error is a big deal in HD, and I really wish Dan would change that. The notion that the interface just won't allow something is ridiculous - I don't mean how it applies formulas and such, I respect (whether I agree or disagree) that isn't an easy part to change and is integral to the system, but the way it disallows some things is off the mark.

edit - I meant to add it sounds like it would be changed in v2 which I applaud, I was reminded by another message

However, as to the original post of this thread, I think it's a bit absurd. Yes, there are lots of "complaints" but not to such a point that it's really an issue, especially when you consider that outside MAYBE Damage Shield I really don't think that the majority, or even a large percentage really, of HERO gamers agree that the rules should be changed to any one specific thing or in some specific way.

Also, I do NOT want HERO to do what is "popular". Just because the majority of people want something at some given point in time it by no means makes it the best course of action for a product. We need consistency and quality in HERO, not mob rule. So they should just make the changes I want... :D

[zornwil]

Originally posted by tiger
...While some Char Gen programs allowed you to add in things I can't think of any official programs that allowed you to change the rules of the game. ...

Nit-picking but yes MetaCreator basically allows you to do this as it exposes everything.

However, that doesn't invalidate the rest of your point.

[rjcurrie]

Originally posted by zornwil
Nit-picking but yes MetaCreator basically allows you to do this as it exposes everything.


Of course, Metacreator (at least, the 4th edition Hero templates) allowed you to do things that are illegal according to the rules without any warning whatsoever, which was one of the problems the DoJ crew had with it.

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Polaris
I agree whole heartedly! Ben did a great job back then, and DoJ is very fortunate to have his talents working for them now. He is top notch!

Aw shucks, guys. Thanks for the kind words.

What it really boils down to, for me, is having a strong work ethic and actually caring about the success of the company... and as I see it, the company can't be succesful unless our fans are happy.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Aw shucks, guys. Thanks for the kind words.

What it really boils down to, for me, is having a strong work ethic and actually caring about the success of the company... and as I see it, the company can't be succesful unless our fans are happy. They are only kind words when they arent true.

Why dont you give yourself a big clap on the back from all of us and take Friday off for good measure -- you deserve it! ;)


(Of course thats only mildly funny if DOJ actually take days off for Federal Holidays -- something Im not too sure about -- and otherwise just disregard ;))

[Toadmaster]

While there are things I would change (old style shotguns and grenades) or would be unhappy to see changed (KA changed from its current version to an advantage) as a whole HERO works pretty well. If DOJ were to start running the company as a popularity contest I think you (YAMO) as well as I would be very unhappy, I know you like playing Heroic level games such as horror. If DoJ were to use the poll method you suggest we would probably only see Champions supplements, since they have the numbers.

Commitees tend to create mediocre products, if you disagree name something outstanding that a commitee created. Polling could be used to help DoJ make decisions but overuse just makes a huge commitee.

Personnally I think DoJ is doing a fine job of keeping a vocal ecclectic group of people pretty happy.


I didn't read the entire thread so I appologize if I have restated anything already covered.

[tmutant]

FRED hasn't even been out a year yet. What does this guy expect?
*Sorry. Ranting.*

I don't want or expect a major revision for 5 years. One rule (Damage Shield) isn't grounds for a reprint. If you ask Steve about it, he'll explain the mechanics behind it for you, so you can make a house rule to "fix" it. This is the most responsive company I've ever dealt with.

*Starting to get upset. Breathe.*

They also provide this forum in which to discuss ideas about the system, including changes to make the game suit individual GM's and players better. There are other game systems out there that provide no such support.

Hero isn't perfect.(Heresy! Burn him!) It can't be. Everyone has a different definition of perfect. It is a great system, you can do almost anything with it, but it isn't perfect. But to say they don't listen when every time I've had a question, it was answered (usually by Steve) within a few hours, is irritating.

[Daryl]

Originally posted by Toadmaster
Commitees tend to create mediocre products, if you disagree name something outstanding that a commitee created.

The Constitution.

Tangentially yours,

--d

[tmutant]

Originally posted by Daryl
The Constitution.

Tangentially yours,

--d

Which, as originally written, only allowed land owning white males to vote, permitted slavery, and was largely responsible for the political rifts which led to the Civil War. It took a long time, and a lot of amendments and legal decisions to get it working. ( Though I don't know that an individual trying to come up with a working republic could have done any better. Hindsight is 20/20. ;) )

[Steve Long]

At the risk of sounding like I'm over-reacting, please let's stop this conversation about the Constitution here. If you want to debate that particular subject, the Non-Gaming Rants board is ready and waiting for you. ;)

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Steve Long
At the risk of sounding like I'm over-reacting, please let's stop this conversation about the Constitution here. If you want to debate that particular subject, the Non-Gaming Rants board is ready and waiting for you. ;)

Yes!

Keep the politics in the cesspit... er, I mean the non-gaming discussions. I come to the gaming side to get away from the great sucking black hole that sits near the bottom of the discussion board list like an intergalactic hoover vacuum cleaner set to high-high in an attempt to destroy all that is GOOD and HOLY in God's Creation.

Its not overreacting, Steve: Its justified righteous indignation!

[Daryl]

My apologies -- seriously. I didn't mean to start anything with my two-word reply. I was just being, you know, smart alecky. Besides, Toadmaster was daring us to refute his blanket statement. Double-dog daring us. Your honor, I was provoked.

--d
(Who is struck by the aptness of Steve Long replying so quickly on a thread about how Hero Games is unresponsive. See, you people? Immediate action!)

[tmutant]

My apologies, also. Just answering the smart alecky post with my own smart alecky post. Not trying to be political. Sorry.

[Toadmaster]

The exception that proves the rule, so there :p


(25 pt psyc lim, quadroople dog dare) :D

[Starcorp Man]

Hmm well as to the original topic, I agree with some aspects of what you say but not EVERY PLAYER is yammering for these changes, especially Strength (sorry can't disagree enough on the "balance," involved. While I do not agree with all of Steve's changes, I do know I can just chuck what I don't like. Using WoTC as an example of "customer friendly," is absurd, the whole 3.5 is a marketing ply to sell books, I should know I write for them.

[Polaris]

Starcorp,

I agree that comparing Hero with WoTC is not always the best or most fair comparison. The two companies are so different in so many ways and on so many levels, that it would probably be unfair to expect DoJ to do as WoTC does (such as adding the errata to each subsequent printing, or the quality of printing--this industry undoubtedly experiences an economy of scale that allows the marginal cost to be reduced as volume increases--for the price, etc).

That all being said, I do think WoTC is good with customer care. Their website is very good, and offers a lot of freebies.

The fact that WoTC is releasing 3.5 "just to make money" I think is a given. Steve (and please correct me, Steve, if I am misreprenting you in any way) has repeatedly explained reasoning for why something is going to make it to print, or not going to make it to print based upon whether it will make DoJ money. If you want more character packs, buy the ones they have... if they can see that they will make money from character packs, they will make more of them. I would love to see DoJ come out with a Mecha supplement, and have expressed that opinion here on more than one occasion. If Steve and Co., thought it would make money, they would make it. Them not doing so is not being 'unresponsive' per se, as much as making a judgment that they could spend their resources other ways that would make them MORE MONEY. The good thing about this: they make money by trying to make us happy.

Make no mistake: DoJ is in this for the money... DoJ is a business, not a hobby (granted, a fun business that many of us would LOVE to have this kind of 'work').

That doesn't make them evil. Mark over at GoO states the same thing (GoO is a business, in it for the money). It is also a fact that WoTC is a business, and in it for the money. It does not make WoTC evil.

Polaris

[Talon]

I think a lot of people say "3.5 is just making money" when they really mean "3.5 is a method of getting short-term income that will, in the long-term, hurt the market".

Think back to 2nd Edition and all the handbooks, guides, etc., each with their own set of optional rules. That whole deal got me out of D&D completely until 3E. If Wizards now starts reprinting the class splatbooks "revised for 3.5", I certainly won't be buying them.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Think back to 2nd Edition and all the handbooks, guides, etc., each with their own set of optional rules. That whole deal got me out of D&D completely until 3E. If Wizards now starts reprinting the class splatbooks "revised for 3.5", I certainly won't be buying them.

Slated for a Nov or Dec release is a hardcover fighters splatbook to replace Sword and Fist, that is 3.5 compliant.

I gave up on d20 a while ago. To be honest I only got into it bcause HERO was in limbo at the time it came out. Not the case anymore :D

[Talon]

Yeah, I'm running 3E for similar reasons. Would use Hero System now.

Complete Fighter...hmph. 2E all over again.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
Slated for a Nov or Dec release is a hardcover fighters splatbook to replace Sword and Fist, that is 3.5 compliant.


Just lovely. I'm sure the rogue, cleric, and mage new and improved splatbooks will grace their 2004 release schedule.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy
Just lovely. I'm sure the rogue, cleric, and mage new and improved splatbooks will grace their 2004 release schedule.

From what I have heard, yep.

Although to be honest I haven't heard of them planning to redo the Epic Level, Manual of the Planes, Dieties or the Psionics books. For what it is worth.

[Talon]

Psionics Handbook revision is on the product list as well, it would seem.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Complete Fighter...hmph. 2E all over again.

Ultimate Martial Artist... hmph. BBB all over again.

And it's Complete Warrior.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
Although to be honest I haven't heard of them planning to redo the Epic Level, Manual of the Planes, Dieties or the Psionics books. For what it is worth.

Well, Complete Warrior isn't really a "re-do" of Sword & Fist. It's gonna be a big honkin' book that, from what I gather from the latest ish of Dragon, will maybe cover more than just fighters and monks.

I don't forsee WotC producing any of the 96pp splats in the future, simply becasue I think they've hit on the fact that big honkin' hardcovers make them the most money. :)

Anyway, there seem to be no plans to re-do any of the major books other than the PsiHB, and I think that's mainly becasue a) the PsiHB needs work, and 2) the new campaign setting (you know, from the contest) supposedly relies on psionics quite a bit, so they want to spiff that subsystem up and add a lot of the bits that have been created for it since it was first released.

[Polaris]

If you do not wish to purchase the new books, you certainly do not need to. I have a friend that plays a ranger (a class that has been changed pretty drastically). He got his 3.5 book at work (he works at a bookstore). When he got home, it took him 10 minutes to modify his character to be fully 3.5 compliant. As he explained after reading through the book, any 3.0 character is 3.5 compatible... if you want the changed rules, it does not take any time at all. He used Masters of the Wild to make the first version.

If you have the 3.0, you certainly do not need the newer version.

I do have to echo the question implied in the post preceeding this one: how is this different than Hero producing a new UMA for FREd? Yes, it is to make money... that is not bad or wrong... anymore than when WoTC does it to make money.

I guess that is my point. These companies are there to make money... they will produce any books that they think will make them the most return on their investment, i.e., money (with some exceptions, I am sure).

I do not understand what is so evil about it... it is capitalism, and not the least bit unique to this industry, or to a particular company within this industry.

Polaris

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by Polaris
I do have to echo the question implied in the post preceeding this one: how is this different than Hero producing a new UMA for FREd?

I'm guessing for starters the old UMA was no longer in active print. Unless you already had one, would accept a used or PDF version, or knew where to buy one that still had a small inventory you where out of luck. If you wanted an UMA, HERO needed to produce a new one.

Now if they ever reprint FREd with all the errata and corrections and decide to start redoing all the support books as the new revised for 5.5 rules then I'll agree it's the same thing. :-)

[Polaris]

The changes to 3.0 included errata and some changes to some of the classes. The change wasn't a wholesale change in the mechanic by any means, thus the numbering of it to 3.5 rather than calling it 4E.

You mentioned Hero 5.5 with new books would upset you... is this like going from 4.0 to 5.0 (you can call it any number you want), and then coming out with new versions of the old books, like that? Is your problem that WoTC calls it 3.5 instead of 4.0?

Before anyone says that I am in any way criticizing Hero for coming out with new versions of their books, I am NOT...:) I am relatively new to Hero (it is by far my favorite system), and I came on board shortly before FREd came out. I have some of the older books from a used bookstore around here (Steve might remember it from his trip to Portland, Powells Books) and downloading some ebooks. I LIKE THAT HERO IS REDOING THEIR BOOKS.

However, I do not fool myself into believing that DoJ is approving their release schedule for any reason other than good business (to MAKE MONEY).

I don't see what is wrong or evil about that... whether it is Hero or WoTC.

Polaris

[Polaris]

Greetings,

As I wrote my last post, I began to wonder if I was not doing a good job explaining my opinion.

I thought back to the original postings on this thread, and what seemed to inspire it. I believe that this thread (I could be wrong) was largely inspired by the fact that sometimes people (myself included) make requests of DoJ (please come out with Mecha Hero... make this change in the rules.... reprint FREd with all the errata... why is FREd in black and white, when many of the competitors is in color.... etc... etc... etc). People give what they think would be cool to have in their gaming libraries.

More often than not, it seems, Steve (or Ben or Darren, but usually Steve) comes in and explains that "It is not likely to happen because we do not believe we would recover the costs of producing such an item", or "the price we would have to charge for that would be too expensive for us to sell enough copies", or whatever (he is more eloquent in is ways of saying 'no', I am merely trying to give examples).

This is not Steve and Co not wanting to be responsive. It is Steve and Co WANTING TO MAKE MONEY. That is why DoJ exists... to make money.

I have shared the disappointment in having one of my ideas get rejected (I still really like the Ultimate Villain idea, or Mecha Hero, for example). At the same time, I do understand that DoJ has to make their best judgement on what will make them the most money (the largest return on their investment).

WoTC is in the same game for the same reason: to make money.

The good news about all this is that these companies make their money (accomplish their goals) by making us happy (or, they try to make their money by trying to make us happy).

DoJ's success is a testament to their ability to make us happy (not all of us, and not all the time, granted).

WoTC's success is a testament to their ability to make us happy (not all of us, and not all the time, granted).

After all this discussion, I guess I have concluded that Hero is responsive... to what (in their best judgment) is what the market wants. That is why they have made good money since being taken over by DoJ, and why they will continue to make good money going forward.

Polaris

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by Polaris
You mentioned Hero 5.5 with new books would upset you...

Not quite, I stated (or at least attempted to imply) that 5.5 along with all new source materials would be the same as what Hasbro is doing with 3.5 and all new source books - and that the revival of HERO games in general with the release of FREd and the re-design and re-release of support books is not quite the same.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Polaris
You mentioned Hero 5.5 with new books would upset you... is this like going from 4.0 to 5.0 (you can call it any number you want), and then coming out with new versions of the old books, like that? Is your problem that WoTC calls it 3.5 instead of 4.0?
4th Edition was first published in 1989. 5th Edition was published 2002. That is a 13 year span. Also, 4th Edition was out of print. The only way you could get a copy was to find one on ebay or at a used book store. The comparison between 4th and 5th is much closer to the comparison of 2E AD&D and 3E.

I believe the general problem many have with 3.5 is that it follows too quickly behind 3.0 and, as Monte Cook stated, is really nothing more than a way for Hasbro/WotC to boost their bottom line (something that is generally good for stock-based companies to do before the end of the year).


However, I do not fool myself into believing that DoJ is approving their release schedule for any reason other than good business (to MAKE MONEY).
Every company has a right to make money, but it is how you choose to make that money that determines the integrity of the company in question. I fully expect for DOJ to update FREd with all the FAQ/Errata information within the next couple of years, but I do not expect them to redo every major book in their line with small, piddly changes just to get more people to keep buying the books again. If they were to do that it would show a great lack of integrity, IMO.

[Polaris]

Monolith,

I would not expect Hero to do that... and, I don't expect WoTC to do it either.

I was just at my FLGS, and WoTC sent them a free pamphlet explaining the changes. The folks over at WoTC made it clear that they would not be redoing their entire line (they would "rather spend their time making new material"). The changes, as explained on the WoTC site is not significant enough to justify redoing all their books.

The material you have for 3.0 is compatible with the new books. It takes very little time to update them to be fully compliant. Gamers obviously have the right to just stick with 3.0, and ignore the changes.

I do not believe that it is a lack of integrity for a company to update their game version (whether they call it 3.5 or 4.0), and to continue to print material for it.

Polaris

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Polaris
The material you have for 3.0 is compatible with the new books. It takes very little time to update them to be fully compliant. Gamers obviously have the right to just stick with 3.0, and ignore the changes.
The change does not affect me at all. My entire d20/OGL collection consists of: Traveller d20, Babylon 5 d20, Forbidden Kingdom d20, Mutants & Masterminds, and Silver Age Sentinels d20. :)

[Chris Goodwin]

Being not a d20 player, I can only give you what I've heard. Disclaimer: I don't have 3.5 and am highly unlikely to ever buy it.

I think the most common complaint is that it's too much too soon, more like a 3.75 release than a 3.5. I personally would have thought they'd have waited another 3 years or so before coming up with any major fixes, and putting it all into a 4th edition release. The ".5" isn't fooling many people, apparently. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 3.5 is going to WotC's Fuzion.

[Doug Limmer]

In Hero terms, the rules in D&D aren't changing much between 3.0 and 3.5. Most of the stuff that's changing, and most of the stuff that seems to get people upset, is a change in the campaign 'packages' (what Rangers do, what spells do, etc.).

When I was doing the playtest for FH, I considered tranlating the whole "it should be a Ranger, not a 'wilderrogue'" argument into Hero terms, to point out how the main point argument is practically nonexistent in the Hero System. (I ended up not doing so, because it would have been putting non-playtest information on the playtest board, and not enough people have seen the playtest document on the general FH board.)

[buzz]

Originally posted by archer
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 3.5 is going to WotC's Fuzion.

FWIW, I gather that Amazon has already had to order more 3.5e product to fill pre-orders.

3.5e != Fuzion

[Polaris]

Greetings,

Okay, the fact that 3.5 came out only about a year or so after 3.0 making people upset I guess I can understand. I would respectfully disagree (I like when things are fixed quicker and sooner rather than later... if I wanted to wait 3 years to get the new fixes, then I could still wait 3 years to buy the product).

I think the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 extend beyond eratta (calling it eratta would not be entirely honest), but are not so significant as to warrant calling it 4.0. Some in our group were disappointed that FREd didn't have more change from BBB (up front, I do not know near enough about this, as I am more of a Fuzion to BBB for a brief time to FREd player, myself... FREd is the version I know the most).

My point about the low amount of change between 3.0 to 3.5 is that in no way does this make your 3.0 books obselete.

Gosh, this is strange... in my group, I am trying to get everyone to switch from d20 to Hero... talking about how much Hero is better... now I come in here, and it seems like I am finding myself defending d20. Maybe I am just contrary... LOL !:)

I do not believe WoTC is doing anything wrong producing 3.5 for the specific purpose of making money. Lets leave it at that... :)

Polaris "The Sczhizophrenic" :)

[Trencher]

Question: are hero games responsive enough to customer feedback?
Answer: Yes
Question: should a game's rules be determined by polls?
Answer: No