Grond, underpowered pansy?

[Vestnik]

While I was in the States, I picked up a copy of the Ultimate Brick, and finally got a look at Grond's character sheet. Now the Big G is supposed to be the Hulk of the CU, as I understand things, well-nigh unstoppable, a thing of terror and so forth.

But his stats seem pretty underwhelming for this role. True he would mop the floor with most 350-point Bricks, but it seems any reasonaly powerful fire-based character or mentalist would wipe him out. A paltry 2 DEF 2 BODY Mental Paralysis would take Grond out of the fight. Doesn't seem appropriate for someone touted as a Major Supervillian Threat. With his Susceptibility to Fire, a bunch of GIs with flamethrowers could take him out.

[Lord Liaden]

Lots of folks around here would agree with you, myself included. Grond isn't near the top level of published Champions Universe bricks.

A few people have mentioned their hope that Grond will be experience a "radiation accident" upgrade in the upcoming CU update book.

[Vestnik]

I am sure that many people here have whupped Grond's overrated butt in their games. Please tell me your Grond-whupping stories.

The guy is turning into the epitome of overrated characters in my mind. :)

[Balabanto]

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

[Vestnik]

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

What if Grond is in a desert?

I want raw power with my Hulk clones, dammit!

[Log-Man]

What if Grond is in a desert?

You mean like pie? What kind of twisted campaign are you running where you're fighting Grond in a pie?

[Hyper-Man]

What if Grond is in a desert?

I want raw power with my Hulk clones, dammit!

The Flying Brick will still beat him.

See the Justice League Animated "Defenders" tribute episode pitting Superman, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl vs. Solomon Grundy (Hulk), Doctor Fate (Strange) and Aquaman (Namor). Fate sends Superman and Grundy to the desert where Grundy eventually grabs Supes and Supes decides to pile drive him into the ground... end of fight.

[Log-Man]

The Flying Brick will still beat him.

See the Justice League Animated "Defenders" tribute episode pitting Superman, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl vs. Solomon Grundy (Hulk), Doctor Fate (Strange) and Aquaman (Namor). Fate sends Superman and Grundy to the desert where Grundy eventually grabs Supes and Supes decides to pile drive him into the ground... end of fight.
Watched that again recently. God but I do love the animated Grundy! :rockon:

[Corven_Ren]

Personally, I like Grond, so much so that I let Kriby play him in a PBEM set in the future. I have never had more fun GMing a campaign than that one. Here is the background info Kirby came up with for him to get him into the campaign.

Background/History: Grond is a name that in it's time brought fear and, for those who knew his sad story, pity to the minds of people. Before the terrible war that struck the world Grond was captured during a battle with Primus and the American Avenger. The Avenger was one of those who pitied Grond. When the call went out he used his contacts to obtain permision to put Grond in suspended animation. He did so in a location know only to him, in hopes that one day a cure may be found for him. Years went by and Grond was all but forgotten. 350 years later Grond was found by a group of Enforcers, after a search through the military historical archives they discovered his identity and quickly decided to try and use him as a pawn. Grond awoke from his long slumber to find himself strapped to a experimentation table with all sorts of wires attached to him. A man in a lab coat came over and began speaking to him. Grond did not fully understand what he was being told, but his old memories of the experiment that made him the way he was surfaced and he got angry. Grond managed to break the restraints and quickly pummeled the scientist into a bloody pulp. Several Enforcers flooded into the room but their weapons didn't even slow him down. Grond battled his way out of the lab and into the wastelands of what was once Washington D.C.. Unable to comprehend the changes to the world, Grond moved constantly and eventually managed to make his way to New Los Angeles. It was there he managed to find some acceptance. Grond was hiding in a large building when he saw a group of people being chased by the Enforcers. He heard one of the 'metal men', as he refered to the Enforcers, yell "Freeze or you will die, Rebel". Grond suddenly remebered how these same type of men had tried to hurt him and he smashed through the crumbling wall. The Enforcers were caught off guard and were quickly dispatched. Grond turned toward the group and began to walk away. The youngest, a little girl who was about 8, came over and tocuhed Grond's hand. "Thank you for saving us, friend."
Grond was confused. He remebered what friend meant. He looked towards the others who were all nodding and smiling at him. Grond knelt beside the small girl and gently stroked her hair with his massive hand.
"Grond friend?" He asked.
"Yes," the little girl replied "I am you friend, my name is Hope."
Grond smiled and said, "Grond and Hope friends."
Hope nodded. "Would you like to come live with us and protect us from the Enforcers."
Grond nodded, "Grond smash metal men for Hope." He stood and accepted the small girl's hand and they walked off together. Since that day Grond has protected Hope and the underground resistance group that her parents were part of.

[clsage]

.......Grond in a pie?

Mmmmmm. Tasty! :ugly:

-Carl-

[GrooveD70]

I kind of cheated. I changed the vulnerabilty. Oherwise he would have been a joke to my players. One of them is very fire-based.:o

[Enforcer84]

Your estimation's correct: Grond's a wimp. Especially don't take him against a team that had a mentalist or a fire user [12d6 fire attack will do 54 stun to Grond on average. 2 hits and he's down].
Grond's a wimp? Okay, so ALL your hero teams include at least one Pyrokinetic Mentalist?

[Enforcer84]

okay, here's 459 pts, go make him better.

[Enforcer84]

Yup. At 459 pts. Yet you still complain.
Grond's got a speed point on everyone but Saphire and Nighthawk. He can throw Ironclad into the next county. How many strikes does it take him to take out Sapphire? (hint: one shot) Nighthawk? (hint: one shot) Withcraft? (Hint: One Shot), Ironclad? (2 shots), Defender? (Hint: one shot)...

So if he throws Ironclad he can, if he get's lucky, take the the other four out and still have an attack left that turn. He's an OCV monster but it could happen.


Sure he's not as resistant to Mental powers, so what? He's a distraction, not a master villain; a team should be able to take him out.


so, world beater? No. Wimp. Not if your a 350 pt brick expected to keep him occupied while the rest of your team deals with the "real villain".

[Enforcer84]

Granted, he'd have to be unbelievably lucky and fight lightyears ahead of his mental capacity to do the above so, yeah. But in a one on one fight, none of the Champions can take him, IMO; and most of the other heroes and villains of the CU would be hard pressed to. So with out an editorial statement of his invulnerability (if this were comics) or a 1000pt team buster write up, he's a wimp, I suppose.

[OddHat]

Why not use my Hulk tribute, Hate (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1104707&postcount=8)? She's cuter.

Personally I like or dislike characters based on concept and story, not write up. If I liked Grond enough to use him, I'd write him up in a form powerful enough to serve whatever purpose I had in mind in a given game. I don't much like his write up as anything but a starting point, but that goes for most published characters.

[Enforcer84]

Why not use my Hulk tribute, Hate (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1104707&postcount=8)? She's cuter.

Personally I like or dislike characters based on concept and story, not write up. If I liked Grond enough to use him, I'd write him up in a form powerful enough to serve whatever purpose I had in mind in a given game. I don't much like his write up as anything but a starting point, but that goes for most published characters.
Shhhh! If you say that they might think its a game or something!
;)

[OddHat]

Shhhh! If you say that they might think its a game or something!
;)

It's one of those heresies on the same level as "Comic book characters don't have character sheets, and writers do pretty much as they please; sometimes this makes for good stories, sometimes for bad."

[Log-Man]

Grond's a wimp? Okay, so ALL your hero teams include at least one Pyrokinetic Mentalist?
It's a standard archetype. I can't wait until they put out The Ultimate Pyrokinetic Mentalist! :thumbup:

[Balabanto]

What IF Grond is in a desert?

I haymaker the ground. I have a strength of 90. You've all acted. I'm hurting, but I have a 30 REC. I don't care.

Everyone who doesn't have life support or flight is now drowning under the sand. Perhaps one or two characters are still free to rescue people. By the time they've dug everyone out, I've punched three people for 18d6 of damage, assuming you can even find any of the buried people.

So it's phase 9, and maybe you have two active PCs, and everyone else without the right powers is pretty much obeying the drowning rules and not getting recoveries.

Have you seen what 18d6 actually does to most characters with 25 points of defenses? That's 38 stun and, god forbid they're in the air, an average of 11 inches of KB. So that's 46 stun if they hit something, like, I don't know, another PC.

NPCs can use characters as weapons too, and there aren't too many people who can casual STR their way out of a STR 90 grab.

[Lord Liaden]

Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up.

I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company?

If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one.

[OddHat]

Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up.

I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company?

If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one.
I can see that complaint, even if the easiest answer remains re-writing him to match the power level you want. As to Grond being overestimated by the list keepers, I kind of like that. After all, in the game world they can't read his sheet, and unlike most of the real top contenders Grond has no master plan and no reason to concentrate on going toe to toe with Heroes. Grond rampaging randomly through a city would seem pretty darn fearsome, and could easily kill thousands before a Hero team or heavy military unit showed up to chase him off. Sure, the rest of that gang could do more, but they usually wouldn't bother; that might leave Grond seeming like far more of a threat in the eyes of PRIMUS or UNTIL.

[Lord Liaden]

Thinking about this, it just strikes me as odd that Grond is one of the few classic Champions villains that didn't receive a significant powerup in the transition to Fifth Edition. Dr. D, Mechanon, Firewing, Dark Seraph, and plenty of others got major upgrades, but Grond didn't keep pace. Ironically, in Fourth Edition and earlier Grond really was just about the strongest guy around, because STR 90 was treated as the maximum for characters who weren't kaiju-class. Fifth Edition has raised the bar significantly, though.

The true Hulk-class menace in publication now is Fracas, from Galactic Champions. No humanoid creature in any current book can match his STR of 120, and his Defenses and other combat capabilities are equally impressive. He serves much the same function of near-mindless wrecking machine as Grond, and he's even amphibious like Grond. The last time I used Grond I just grafted most of Fracas's character sheet onto his.

[CrosshairCollie]

Thinking about this, it just strikes me as odd that Grond is one of the few classic Champions villains that didn't receive a significant powerup in the transition to Fifth Edition. Dr. D, Mechanon, Firewing, Dark Seraph, and plenty of others got major upgrades, but Grond didn't keep pace. Ironically, in Fourth Edition and earlier Grond really was just about the strongest guy around, because STR 90 was treated as the maximum for characters who weren't kaiju-class. Fifth Edition has raised the bar significantly, though.

The true Hulk-class menace in publication now is Fracas, from Galactic Champions. No humanoid creature in any current book can match his STR of 120, and his Defenses and other combat capabilities are equally impressive. He serves much the same function of near-mindless wrecking machine as Grond, and he's even amphibious like Grond. The last time I used Grond I just grafted most of Fracas's character sheet onto his.

Fracas is a better name anyway. :)
Anyway, I always got the impression that Grond was the 'throw the new characters/players at him, and if they try a straight slugfest they're hosed, now they have to learn teamwork' kind of thing. A team of 350 point tactically inept newbies probably would get mowed down by him.

[Bloodstone]

My problems with Grond is that he fails in the two areas I consider most important to a brick: Strength and Defenses.

He's not the "Strongest One There Is"! Gargantua, Ripper and Obelisk (and Rashindar on the Hero side) can all top him by at least 10 points. Mind you, most of them can only do it for a limited amount of time as opposed to Grond's steady 90, but still.

As for defenses, no Hardened Defenses, no exotic defenses, no Damage Reduction, no Regen, no significant LS. All the tricks people use against your typical, stupid brick work on him. 40/30 is impressive for a game world that generally caps out around 25, but the other top tier bricks have some of those extras and similar levels of Defense.

Mind you, with all that said I still probably wouldn't call him a pansy. He's just not quite at the level that the books build him up to IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sure he's not as resistant to Mental powers, so what? He's a distraction, not a master villain; a team should be able to take him out.

I think this is where the issue lies. Those complaining want Grond to be the CU hulk. The Hulk is not easily taken out by a whole team of heroes - he's fought many hero teams to a standstill. Grond is simply not at that level. If you want a CU Hulk, he needs a powerup. If not, he's fine.

[Hyper-Man]

What we really need is HERO writeups of Krunk and the rest of the Justice Friends.

[Bloodstone]

I swear I've seen Krunk and Val Hallen writups before... but Search has failed me :(

[Balabanto]

A 12d6 attack punches a "Man" sized hole in a building big enough for a single character to fit through.

EVERY point of body above that DOUBLES the size of the hole.

When the hole is larger than the building, the building WILL fall down. This is simple common sense.

[Grimble]

In my first encounter with Grond back in the early 90's Our Supers (250pt characters) mopped the floor with him. Our Mentalist Mind Controlled him into climbing into a bathtub for a bath. Once he was settled we all coordinated our biggest attacks on him at once. Once he was stunned out we threw a plugged in hairdryer into the tub to keep him stunned.

Easy as pie!
Grimble

[Balabanto]

Does it? From a realistic perspective, sure. But this is a comic book universe. First and foremost, you have to encourage PC's to be careful with their superpowers.

If a guy leaps from the top of a building and he's a one ton object, and he expects to freely land after colliding with a random object in midair, it's likely he's just going to take the terminal velocity falling damage. Using their rules on the size of the hole, it wound up being about 8 city blocks.

A hole is a hole. It doesn't contain anything. This falls into the category of let supers be super. Just make sure if you're going to take this option you ask your players questions like "Are you sure you want to take this action?"

[Manic Typist]

Does that math work out? A one ton object making a whole the size of eight city blocks?

I mean, in the real world, do the physics work like that?

[Enforcer84]

Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up.

I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company?

If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one.
Oh. Well, sorry about that. I just get testy some days. It's not like I wrote Grond or anything :o

sorry if was uppity.

[Enforcer84]

I think this is where the issue lies. Those complaining want Grond to be the CU hulk. The Hulk is not easily taken out by a whole team of heroes - he's fought many hero teams to a standstill. Grond is simply not at that level. If you want a CU Hulk, he needs a powerup. If not, he's fine.
Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him?

Grond's just a four armed sad sack with really bad complexion. :D

[Enforcer84]

In my first encounter with Grond back in the early 90's Our Supers (250pt characters) mopped the floor with him. Our Mentalist Mind Controlled him into climbing into a bathtub for a bath. Once he was settled we all coordinated our biggest attacks on him at once. Once he was stunned out we threw a plugged in hairdryer into the tub to keep him stunned.

Easy as pie!
Grimble
And quite original. :D

"Grond want Bubblebath."

[Enforcer84]

I'm not sure people expect Grond to be hulkish. They just expect him to be as tough against them as he was in 1e thru 4e. In 5e Grond isn't a team foe. He's hired muscle for other villains so they can come in-mass. Assuming about 50 xp a year Grond is someone the team brick can expect to go 1 on 1 against in about a year. I don't think anyone felt that way in the first 4 editions.
Grond's GM has been bilking him xp for years.

[Log-Man]

Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him?

Grond's just a four armed sad sack with really bad complexion. :D
Exactly. Grond isn't the Hulk.

He's the Abomination.

[Bloodstone]

Not really. The Abomination is a lot smarter than Grond ;)

[Lord Mhoram]

Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him?



In the Ultimate Universe Cap kicks the crap out of him. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

In the Ultimate Universe Cap kicks the crap out of him. :)

Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. :) As much as I like Cap, I would never rate his chances against the Hulk.

[Lord Mhoram]

Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. :) As much as I like Cap, I would never rate his chances against the Hulk.

Yeah.

There were lots of exteniuting circumstances, and he only got a couple of good shots it, after Tony and Thor had pounded on him for a while. :)

Series tanget alert but hey... at least this bit relates to Grond.

My favorite Grond moment was one my wife Gmed. My character was a supersuit, and a boxer, and had the MA package and kept Grond distracted till he flew him away out of reach for a bit. He set Grond down, and grond went to fight and Ballistic flew back and got in a boxing pose. Grond mirrored it (badly) then said "How you fight?" Ballistic answered "Boxing".. and then grond looked down at his arms (in a boxing pose) then looked up and said "Adriiiaaaan".

Great moment.

[Bloodstone]

Ultimate Cap seems to be stronger and tougher than his 616 counterpart.

That said, his offense against Ultimate Hulk consisted of landing a tank on him, kicking him in the face, punching him in the nose, kicking him in the nuts, bashing him with the shield and then foot sweeping him, all in relativly rapid succession.

This just made Hulk angry.

Hulk responded to this by breaking Caps arm and beating the crap out of him. Cap mostly blocks with the shield, but he did take one right in the head. The fact he wasn't KOed by this tells you how tough Ultimate Cap is.

Fortunately, Ultimate Thor showed up before Hulk could do any real damage. Thor sent the Hulk flying with a bolt of lighting and then hit him a few times full on with the hammer. Broke Hulks ribs and jaw and punctured a lung.

This also made Hulk angry, so Hulk proceeded to KO Goldilocks in one hit that sent him half way across Manhattan.

And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain ;)

[Lord Mhoram]

And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain ;)

I just wonder if we will ever see the rest of that miniseries.

[Bloodstone]

There were lots of exteniuting circumstances, and he only got a couple of good shots it, after Tony and Thor had pounded on him for a while

No, at the point where Cap entered the battle, Hulk had almost killed Giant Man and was tryig to do the same to Iron Man. Iron man blasted him with some sonic attack and then knocked him out of a building.

Wasp distracts Hulk and then Cap lands the tank on him.

Thor didn't come in until after Cap had fought Hulk mano-a-mano.

[Lord Mhoram]

That said, his offense against Ultimate Hulk consisted of landing a tank on him, kicking him in the face, punching him in the nose, kicking him in the nuts, bashing him with the shield and then foot sweeping him, all in relativly rapid succession.

This just made Hulk angry.

Was a great couple of pages though. :)

[Lord Mhoram]

Thor didn't come in until after Cap had fought Hulk mano-a-mano.

It's been a bit. Sign I need to reread it. :)

[nexus]

Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. :) As much as I like Cap, I would never rate his chances against the Hulk.

To be fair, Ultimate Captain America seems more overtly superhuman than traditional Cap and he didn't really "beat" him but got in some good shots at weak points, got him mad and took a beating for it.

Edit: Scooped!

[csyphrett]

I just wonder if we will ever see the rest of that miniseries.

It's cancelled according to Comicon posters.
CES

[Mike W]

Getting back to the original thread idea:

What is supposed to make Grond tough is that he has 90 STR, so he can CON stun just about any non-brick every time he hits them. And since a CON stunned character is a sitting duck, the way to make Grond effective is to force close quarters where knockback will get stopped by walls. One on one against anyone other than a mentalist or pyrokinetic and most supers are in trouble. He can outlast most bricks and literally ends most other fights with the first punch he lands because he does 63 STUN(so probably 35-38 through defenses) each hit. If that isn't enough STUN to knock you out, you should easily be CON stunned. And since he gets an average of 11 KB, you might just take a little extra damage from hitting a wall or something. That kind of "one punch to end a fight" power is going to give him a towering reputation. It also makes the fact that he can be whittled down much less relevent since in a one on one fight, you have to last long enough to whittle him down, which isn't easy given his raw power. And his base DEF plus hideous REC mean that he takes damage decently and regains STUN at a frightening rate.

Best Grond moment in a campaign I played in: The martial artist got locked up in a one on one fight with Grond and basically spent all his time dodging and taunting Grond. Of course, since the martial artist was dodging behind agents on Grond's team, Grond was doing lots of damage to his own guys trying to get the little guy. While Grond was distracted, I snuck up behind him with my power armored character(who was "trying out" for the team as I was joining an established campaign) and I haymakered him, CON stunning Grond and making him easy pickings for everyone else to finish off. It got quite a reaction from the team(and got me a pretty quick acceptance, at least in terms of capability) from the rest of the team.

[wrestlinggeek]

Ultimate Cap seems to be stronger and tougher than his 616 counterpart.

---snip---

And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain ;)

Ultimate Cap is tougher and stronger than 616 Cap.
Ultimate Hulk is weaker and more vulnerable than 616 Hulk.
I base this on something I saw in Wizard magazine a while back, where the Ultimate writers were comparing the power levels of various charcaters in the Ultimate Universe, and comparing what they said to the OHOTMU.
That said, Cap taking down Hulk, even for a few seconds, impressive. Ultimate Cap rocks!

[TheUnknown]

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

Where do you get your measurements for 64 hex hole?

[Lord Mhoram]

It's cancelled according to Comicon posters.
CES

Kinda Figured

[Tom]

So far, in every encounter I've had with Grond, he's lasted less than a Turn -- and if the team included a mentalist or fire SFX he usually doesn't make it past the initial phase. Though to be honest, there are two factors involved. One is the dice seem to have been in tune with the heroes these days (I can recall only 3 fights with Grond off hand, and someone gets some seriously good dice in each of them). The other is the players hear 'Grond' and the gloves come all the way off and everyone busts out their best attacks (usually)...

Two of the fights were in Hero Central games. In 'Zodiac', Aires (Fire SFX) managed to CON Stun Grond with his opening shot, iirc. In 'A Game of Chance' (the only fight I've had with Grond that didn't include a mentalist or fire SFX in the mix), my char managed to hold onto Grond for two whole phases while the rest of team unloaded on him (I pulled pretty much every trick on my char sheet and was pushing to boot, even with the post-12 REC I'd have been burning STUN for END if I tried to do that for another phase) and the TK-based blaster managed a crit -- winning the Stun Lotto with an RKA. I'll mention I also got some very good rolls in the STR vs STR contest while Grond was rolling below average...

Now why the TK player was playing the Stun Lotto escapes me, but I started out as a war gamer rather than with RPGs and I'm a firm believer in alpha strikes against reduced DCV targets that can't fight back...

[Hugh Neilson]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wolverine_Vs._Hulk:


The third issue of the series has met with delays. It was originally solicited for April 19, 2006, only to be resolicited for May 17. That date came and went, and after about a week with no word on the issue's fate, Marvel announced that it would be released July 12. Further delays caused the issue to be bumped to August 9, then September 20, then October 25, then November 1, November 8, and December 27. Finally it was announced in mid-November 2006 that the third issue of the series had been officially cancelled until all of the remaining issues of the mini series are completed. [3]

That's also my understanding from my FLC&GS.

[Balabanto]

Ahh, the 64 hex hole. This is actually sort of polite and assumes Grond rolls average. If he punches, that's 18d6.

Thats 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 if you count out where 12 destroys the wall.

If he haymakers...(God Forbid, but really, he should do this, because he's probably going dead LAST in the order and there's no one to stop him from doing it, you go to 128 256 512 1024)

At this point, the problem is, the building's weight is not evenly distributed, because that hole has obliterated the base of support for the outer edge of the building, thus forcing the girders and interior superstructure to support that extra weight without it connecting to anything and distributing that extra mass. Ergo, the building is going to start falling, real soon.

By the way, once you have a 1024 Hex hole, that pretty much wrecks any hope the PC's have of saving everyone. Even if you assume that a city block is about 1/18 of a mile, or about 360 feet, that's about 120 meters, or 60 hexes, that entire city block, or at least, that building, is over.

Now, this means that we're talking about a building like the Sears Tower or the Empire State Building. Smaller Skyscrapers...forget about it.

[Squall]

So you're saying he punches the side of a building, and a city block blows up?

[Hugh Neilson]

On the Haymaker note, that means a 60 STR Brick can get a 16 hex hole, which will have pretty much the same effect, won't it? After all, if Grond can manage with his 90 STR, then a 16d6 haymakered punch will have a similar, though marginally smaller, effect. Let me at that VIPER headquarters!

[OddHat]

On the Haymaker note, that means a 60 STR Brick can get a 16 hex hole, which will have pretty much the same effect, won't it? After all, if Grond can manage with his 90 STR, then a 16d6 haymakered punch will have a similar, though marginally smaller, effect. Let me at that VIPER headquarters!

Actually, that's not a bad idea if the GM wants to allow it. IME, Champions games often lack an epic, comic book feel in part because GMs don't allow over the top stunts, even when those stunts are within the rules. There's something to be said for letting players feel that there characters really are Supers.

[Balabanto]

Yes, it is. It's also why I have a 70 AP maximum for "The Most Powerful Heroes in the World."

The guys who designed the old editions weren't morons. They really DID know what they were doing. It's just that everything has to be "Bigger, Better, Faster,Harder" now even though there's really no need for it.

Is the NEW CU really mighty? Sure.

But is the power level necessary? Nope.

When a Brick with a 60 STR can level most skyscrapers, you have, in fact, achieved a level of awesome superpower. Sure, he can't knock people BACK the equivalent distance, but that's okay, superheroes should be super tough too.

So the answer is, no. Grond is not an underpowered pansy. He's just underpowered by the standards of the overpowered comics that people today are reading.

Often, people forget that the best stories that are told in comics are the human stories, the stories about people. The stories we remember from Comics aren't always "The Final Showdown with the Jackal."

We remember "A Guy Named Joe". We remember "Everyman." We remember that one Christmas in Gotham City where the Justice League comes to give Batman one night off....

And if you make the characters too powerful, your players will lose that sense that stories like that can be told, indeed, that they even mean anything.

So yeah, they have the capability to destroy a building. But don't forget the little stories that make the characters human.

[Watchdog]

Saying that Grond is overrated because he won't last a turn against a party that includes a pyro and a mentalist is like saying that Superman is overrated becuase he won't last a turn against a villain group with Kapitan Kryptonite.

[Mike W]

Yes, it is. It's also why I have a 70 AP maximum for "The Most Powerful Heroes in the World."

The guys who designed the old editions weren't morons. They really DID know what they were doing. It's just that everything has to be "Bigger, Better, Faster,Harder" now even though there's really no need for it.

Is the NEW CU really mighty? Sure.

But is the power level necessary? Nope.

When a Brick with a 60 STR can level most skyscrapers, you have, in fact, achieved a level of awesome superpower. Sure, he can't knock people BACK the equivalent distance, but that's okay, superheroes should be super tough too.

So the answer is, no. Grond is not an underpowered pansy. He's just underpowered by the standards of the overpowered comics that people today are reading.

Often, people forget that the best stories that are told in comics are the human stories, the stories about people. The stories we remember from Comics aren't always "The Final Showdown with the Jackal."

We remember "A Guy Named Joe". We remember "Everyman." We remember that one Christmas in Gotham City where the Justice League comes to give Batman one night off....

And if you make the characters too powerful, your players will lose that sense that stories like that can be told, indeed, that they even mean anything.

So yeah, they have the capability to destroy a building. But don't forget the little stories that make the characters human.

The JLA gave Batman a night off? Can you tell me what issue? I'd love to read it.

[transmetahuman]

The JLA gave Batman a night off? Can you tell me what issue? I'd love to read it.
I'm guessing it came before the similar story in Astro City? Which was an awesome story, one of my favorites; I'd like to read the Batman (or JLA? I bet it was in a Batman title though) story, too. :)

[Publius]

Since the Sears' Towers exterior walls are only hardened glass [around 2/2] you should be able to take out about 18 miles when you hit it. That just goes to show you how stupid that rule is. :) The rule in Champions make much more sense.
Plus (since I presume you are not in favor of this first method you mention with the 2/2 wall), any building that has "Hardened glass" as an exterior wall is a "Curtain Wall" style building. The sort where the exterior walls are not actually holding anything up. (like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtain_wall)) Taking a cubic buttload of damage might indeed cause the whole side of the building to ripple out (like the wave effect seen in some movies, I think the Matrix used this for one scene with the helicopter explosion) and rain down all sorts of nastiness but leave the interior of the building just fine since it is only "hung" there like a curtain. In other words, the titanic blow rips off the facade taking all that wonderful kinetic energy with it. But it would look very cool.

I've reviewed the rules for Breaking Buildings in The Ultimate Brick, pp113-114, and they seem to handle things quite well (although I frankly have never tested them since I usually run a low-powered super game. Sometimes something that looks good on paper doesn't work as smoothly on the table, but I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt). Using that system an "average" building (reinforced concrete walls) has been compromised at 50 Body points, but that only means that there is a chance that it will fall down (per an activation roll) over a given amount of time (starting at 1 day). The activation roll gets lower and the timespan gets shorter for each multiple of this 50 Body. We are talking about 350 points of BODY damage (not Stun) for a 1 turn 8- activation roll. Grond would actually take a while to level a Skyscraper at 90 STR 18 Body on average/swing. Not a LONG while maybe, but a number of hits.

BTW, Did I do that right under those rules?

[Watchdog]

If you'd read the entire thread then you'd have noticed that I did a short breakdown for how the Champions [sans mentalist or pyro] would take out Grond in a turn [and most people consider the Champions under built as starting lever characters]. :)

Your breakdown assumed Grond never hit any of them in combat, so imo it left a little to be desired.

There aren't many published characters built on Grond's points who will survive a 5 on 1 assault from a competent team for more than a turn, unless they have high levels of damage reduction.

Whether something is overrated or not depends on your expectations. If one expects Grond to be an even match for an entire team, then I suppose he is overrated.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Plus (since I presume you are not in favor of this first method you mention with the 2/2 wall), any building that has "Hardened glass" as an exterior wall is a "Curtain Wall" style building. The sort where the exterior walls are not actually holding anything up. (like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtain_wall)) Taking a cubic buttload of damage might indeed cause the whole side of the building to ripple out (like the wave effect seen in some movies, I think the Matrix used this for one scene with the helicopter explosion) and rain down all sorts of nastiness but leave the interior of the building just fine since it is only "hung" there like a curtain. In other words, the titanic blow rips off the facade taking all that wonderful kinetic energy with it. But it would look very cool.

I've reviewed the rules for Breaking Buildings in The Ultimate Brick, pp113-114, and they seem to handle things quite well (although I frankly have never tested them since I usually run a low-powered super game. Sometimes something that looks good on paper doesn't work as smoothly on the table, but I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt). Using that system an "average" building (reinforced concrete walls) has been compromised at 50 Body points, but that only means that there is a chance that it will fall down (per an activation roll) over a given amount of time (starting at 1 day). The activation roll gets lower and the timespan gets shorter for each multiple of this 50 Body. We are talking about 350 points of BODY damage (not Stun) for a 1 turn 8- activation roll. Grond would actually take a while to level a Skyscraper at 90 STR 18 Body on average/swing. Not a LONG while maybe, but a number of hits.

BTW, Did I do that right under those rules?

Arrgh.
Yet another size/scale issue.
So now a 20d6 Megascale Nuke, ala TUV, won'rt take out a skyscraper?
And if you can throw 91 body in a single attack, its easier to destroy the planet the building sits on rather than targeting the building?
I obviously don't have TUB, but adding a whole 'nother set of breaking things rules sounds like it's just making already muddy waters even more polluted.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Those rules were published in the Champions genre book long before getting reprinted in the Ultimate Brick. And no one can can really believe it takes only 91 body to destroy the planet when it takes 40 body to destroy a tank. :)

*Shrug* I don't really do supers much anymore, and am on my "I'm self employed" budget, which means I don't have any of the supers genre books. The 91 body thing is straight from 5th & the sidebar in Star Hero. I don't agree with it, but it's one system valid build, and the only way the Planetary level threats like the Engine of Destruction (a Berserker homage) in the Bestiary could possibly work. Even then the EoD's "Planet-Destroying Cannon" is only a 10d6 AP RKA. Not only will it NOT destroy a Planet, now it won't even knock down a building.

Someday I'll figure out the fix for this issue.

[Watchdog]

As I said, they only need to keep him from hitting 2-3 times before Sapphire and Defender take him out [and with a 4 dcv he's all but impossible to hit].

And they're preventing him from attacking Sapphire or Defender first how, exactly? Neither Ironclad nor Nighthawk are going to be able to do much damage to Grond, and while the big lug may not be a tactical genius, he should still be able to go after who hurts him the most.

I'm just saying that if one Champion goes down - and the odds are, they will - your "KO GRond in one turn or less" breakdown goes right out the window.



I think the point of the thread was to complain about why Grond doesn't perform the same way in 5e that he did in 1e-4e. In early editions Grond was a group threat unless you had fire or mental. In 5e he's a pushover who's been surplanted by other villains who he used to be superior to.

I think baseline character inflation may account for this, at least in part. Earlier Champions editions had starting PCs at 200-250 points, depending on the ed.

[Watchdog]

They're going to be flying.

If they're out of range of his superleap, even they're going to have trouble hitting Grond with the range penalties. And this assumes there's nothing big and heavy he can throw at them. At this point we would have to start stipulating what environment they're fighting in.




And as for him being any type of tactician, I'd just point out that he has less intelligence then most of the animals in the Bestiary and leave it a that. :) If you've got 2 people tormenting a bear it's not thinking about how it's getting hit. It's thinking the thing in front of it is doing the hitting.

If he has the mental capacity to form a coherent sentence in his quote, he'd have the mental capacity to to determine who was hurting him more - at least in my campaign. It would take more an ineffective PC dancing in front of him to keep him from attacking the PC hitting him with a 6d6 NND stun each phase. YMMV.

[MeteorMan]

I hafta say I haven't used Grond in 5th Ed yet. As I have used him in my 4th Ed and previouse Champions games I hafta make sure that he lives up to his rep from previous editions.
I know he's not a master villain or even intellectually close to being a rocket scientist but I have always used him as a cunning foe who learns from his mistakes and experiences like some wild animals do.
In my 4th ed game my super team came across Grond on the New York docks and had a quick fight that almost got the team all a quick ride to the hospital as Grond has 4 arms i gave him autofire and area affect 1 hex as strength tricks. also if the big man can grab an unsuspecting hero he still has 3 arms free.
Also in 4th edition game my heroes couldn't fight grond underwater very well.
Water breathing and swimming gave him an edge in there first fight, and take it they all learned and round 2 several weeks later the trumiphed over grond but they had a healthy respect for him.

[Mike W]

On the other hand, Grond is child like enough that if someone ineffectual did a good enough job of taunting, Grond might ignore more effective combatants(at least for a while) to try and stomp the obnoxious character first.

[Andrew Cermak]

Character sheets don't always agree with write ups. We saw that in the Dr. Destroyer versus Takofanes thread. :) I can only say that Grond's write up gives him less intelligence then most of the animals in the game and he's 2 points lower then a small child.

The low intelligence of animals is in part represented by a Physical Limitation that Grond doesn't have. Some animals may process information faster than Grond, but that doesn't necessarily make them more cunning.

[Watchdog]

.Now you can play him like a normal human intellect if you want but I choose to play him as someone with the intellect of a 5 year old [and someone of that age group certainly doesn't grasp everything around him, especially when getting injured].

I may be wrong, but you're making it sound like you run Grond almost at a default berserk, attacking PC targets at random. If that's the case, it does support your argument that he can be easily taken out in less than a turn.

But you really don't have to be a genius, or even "normal human intellect" to determine who's hurting you the most. Pain is a very simple concept, and so is determining who's causing the most pain, unless there's invisible power effects involved.

When I was five years old and roughhousing with other kids, I certainly knew who was doing the most damage to me (usually my older sister) and would takes steps to avoid it. You can credit me with being an exceptionally intelligent child if you want to, but... :)

So if Grond can't evaluate the difference between Nighthawk's getting 2 STUN past his defenses, and Sapphire's 6d6 NND attack, then yes. He's definitely an underpowered pansy. If he has a fully functioning nervous system and the intelligence of a five year old, then not so much, imo. As I said, YMMV.

I think I'm done on this subject. Last word's yours if you want it.

[massey]

Not much to say here, except:

1) Grond is less powerful than he used to be.

2) I believe the size of the hole doubles for every *2* Body above the destruction of the original hex now (meaning Grond will only do an 8 hex hole on a punch, or a 32 hex hole on a haymaker).

and

3) Some skyscrapers actually DO rely on their outer walls for support. The WTC was a prime example. Something like the Empire State Building is a heck of a lot more sturdy - it's a million tons of concrete and steel, and can take a pounding.

I've always felt that Grond needed damage reduction, at least on his ED side. Perhaps give him 50% damage reduction that lasts only for the first turn, that way he'll fall down later in the fight, but he doesn't get punked early on.

[Squall]

And this assumes there's nothing big and heavy he can throw at them.
I bet Ironclad would work... ;)

[proditor]

Ultimate Cap is tougher and stronger than 616 Cap.
Ultimate Hulk is weaker and more vulnerable than 616 Hulk.
I base this on something I saw in Wizard magazine a while back, where the Ultimate writers were comparing the power levels of various charcaters in the Ultimate Universe, and comparing what they said to the OHOTMU.
That said, Cap taking down Hulk, even for a few seconds, impressive. Ultimate Cap rocks!
While I agree with the above based on reading the comics, I have a knee-jerk frothing reaction whenever someone mentions Wizard, which published Ultimate Hulk as having an 11 ton lift capacity. :nonp: :ugly:

Morons.

[Publius]

3) Some skyscrapers actually DO rely on their outer walls for support. The WTC was a prime example. Something like the Empire State Building is a heck of a lot more sturdy - it's a million tons of concrete and steel, and can take a pounding.Absolutely, which was why I said...

...any building that has "Hardened glass" as an exterior wall is a "Curtain Wall" style building...Because the post I was responding to was about the mountain of damage done to a 2/2 wall. I still think the visual would be cool and the flying glass and whatnot to be a real headache (and heartache) for the PCs. Curtain walls btw were very popular after Lever House in the early 1950s up to the present and are seen worldwide, but you are absolutely right that they are not all skyscrapers.

The rest of the comment about Skyscrapers didn't rely on that either btw, those were the rules straight out of the book.