Nazi Zeppelin Base

[AlHazred]

I've been doing some work on my Golden Age Superheroes/Pulp Heroes campaign, and I've decided to make one of the main villains a Nazi mad scientist/Prussian noble whose purpose is to keep the heroes busy at home so that they don't go to Germany to fight. I thought it would be cool to give him an interesting base, but the whole "German castle" thing didn't work because it needed to be in the US.

Then, last time I visited Germany, we went to the Zeppelin museum. I've decided to give him a "castle" in the sky -- a giant zeppelin! I figure his ancestral castle was destroyed during World War I, and he rebuilt using "high technology". I've even gotten inspiration from the SHIELD helicarrier and Baron Wulfenbach's dirigible/castle in Girl Genius.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to make it interesting? I mean, I could just take the zeppelin from The Ultimate Vehicle and upgun the Size a notch or three, but I'd like to make it unusual. Any thoughts? What about pictures I can use as inspiration?

[death tribble]

Start with the Hindenburg. Remember that if your history includes the destruction of the Hindenburg in 1937 (I believe) that your villain will have a good motive for taking the battle to the States. America would not supply Helium or knowledge of Helium to Germany who used Hydrogen in the balloon instead.

There is a fictional film of the Hindenburg with George C Scott and Anne Bankroft. You could try and see that for some ideas.

Look at Crimson Skies as well. That has Zepplins as the freight carriers of the day.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Oooo. Zepplins.


Remember that they're generally rigid.
Remember that they ARE vulnerable to aircraft, i.e. the thing's going to have guns on it to shoot back/down the P-41s and all that come after it.
Remember that it has to restock, i.e. needs to moor somewhere in order to take on provisions.
Remember the fate of the Hindenberg at the mooring mast. I'll guarantee that your players will, and that this is going to be the end of Baron Zima's Zepplin Fortress.
Remember that the mainland US, Canada, & Mexico were NOT all well-known; adventures hunting down this guy's 'secret ground bases' should be be fun, furious, and frequent; they should always be stopping him in the nick of time, he gets away in the Zepplin, but they find out a clue to another secret base until they finally corner him at his ultra-top-secret base hidden in the Nevada desert. And when they DO destroy the Zepplin Fortress, the War Department is going to want to take over Baron Zima's Ultra-Top-Secret Base and give it a bland-sounding label to explain away all the secrets of Baron Zima's they're finding. You know, something like 'Area 15' or something...
Remember that a steady diet of 5th Columnists WILL get boring eventually, even rapidly. Instead of constant adventures in the US, spread the Character's assignments and action between the African theatre, the Southeast Asian (Asia/Burma/Borneo) theatre, action in England and Europe, and fighting Japs in the Pacific. Maybe they'll even go to Stalingrad and fight Those Dirty Nazis in the ugly house-to-house fighting there before returning home for a well-earned two weeks of shore leave -- but when they get there, they encounter yet another dastardly plan by Evil Baron Zima to Steal Cut-Your-Throat-Before-Reading Secrets of Weapon Technology From the War Department!! You know, stuff like really powerful bombs.

No rest for the heroic.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros
Oooo. Zepplins.


Remember that they're generally rigid.
Remember the fate of the Hindenberg at the mooring mast. I'll guarantee that your players will, and that this is going to be the end of Baron Zima's Zepplin Fortress.

No rest for the heroic.
A zeppelin is by definition a rigid airship; blimps and semi-rigids probably can't be built as large as I suspect you are planning.

Remember that it wasn't the hydrogen that killed the Hindenberg, it was the solid-rocket-fuel-in-all-but-name that they used for a skin. The never-built next generation zeppelin would have had a more fire-retardant envelope. Incendiary bullets are a hazard to a hydrogen-lift airship, but not a sure killer; after all, they need O2 to burn the H2 and there isn't much oxygen in a lift cell. Since your villain is a mad scientist, I would expect a bullet-resistent envelope (Def 3-4 Armor?) and self-sealing gas cells to mitigate the hazards.

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Tom Carman
Remember that it wasn't the hydrogen that killed the Hindenberg, it was the solid-rocket-fuel-in-all-but-name that they used for a skin. The never-built next generation zeppelin would have had a more fire-retardant envelope. Incendiary bullets are a hazard to a hydrogen-lift airship, but not a sure killer; after all, they need O2 to burn the H2 and there isn't much oxygen in a lift cell. Since your villain is a mad scientist, I would expect a bullet-resistent envelope (Def 3-4 Armor?) and self-sealing gas cells to mitigate the hazards.

I've read the books/seen the documentaries and I'm convinced it was the material they used to "dope" the skin to prevent gas leakage. It seems the Zeppelin company also knew this, just a few months after the accident, but it didn't hit public consciousness until very recently.

The Zeppelin in The Ultimate Vehicle has a DEF of 4, which seems pretty good for a rigid airship. I'll probably give it a 5 overall, with a more heavily-armored gondola (Partial Coverage).

Since I'm using Pulp Superscience in this game, there might very well be more advanced planes than P-41s flying about. The PCs have a team transport that is based on the Weserflug P.1003/1 (http://www.luft46.com/misc/wes1003.html), which would have anticipated the V-22 Osprey by 50 years. I expect the villain of the piece to know this and plan accordingly.

I'm less interested in tactical details (he'll probably be using salvaged Martian Heat-Rays as primary weapons), and more interested in the special touches that make any base memorable. Launch assist/arrest platforms for Messerschmitt Me 163B Komets and other experimental planes? If a platform, is it on top of the gasbag, or slung underneath? Large side-mounted propellers to provide lift/steering? Faux stone wall and tower designs, emulating the character's lost castle? Or pulp-era continental styling, making it look like a luxury train car? The devil is in the details...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by AlHazred
The Zeppelin in The Ultimate Vehicle has a DEF of 4, which seems pretty good for a rigid airship. I'll probably give it a 5 overall, with a more heavily-armored gondola (Partial Coverage).

Good idea. Always armor the gondola a bit more. Also, don't forget your science labs tucked away here, there, and yon within the lift cells -- inside the massive framework makes a stunning 3-D maze for the heros to have to fight their way through.


Launch assist/arrest platforms for Messerschmitt Me 163B Komets and other experimental planes? If a platform, is it on top of the gasbag, or slung underneath?

Launch from the bottom; recover on top. Maybe part of the 'experimental planes' are the ability to disassemble and move them short distances; a 'lift elevator' down the side/front/through the middle of the gasbag?


Large side-mounted propellers to provide lift/steering?

No, no, too SHIELD Helicarrier. But it SHOULD have bomb racks.


Faux stone wall and tower designs, emulating the character's lost castle? Or pulp-era continental styling, making it look like a luxury train car? The devil is in the details...

Pulp-era Continental Styling. If Hitler did one good thing for Germany, it's that he made the trains run on time. This thing should be posh, elite, arrogant, high-society. Hell, have Baron von Munchausen invite the characters there for a tete-a-tete. If he's classy, play it up. If the place is really big, why not have a ballroom -- one of the aerodromes opens out to the sky (upwards, into the landing platform?), dancing, music, all that. Class, style, evil laboratories. Experimental Steampunk Mecha battling it out with the heros (in their dinner jackets and evening dresses, no less!!) on the top of the zepplin.

I'd put regular guns in the cupolas, though, and save the Martian Death Ray as a thing the characters have to stop -- maybe during the ball he unveils it, pointing at the Washington Monument or some such national monument. Something suitably dramatic, luxurious ... posh. Like you said, this is the era of Pulp Heros.

[Lord Liaden]

If you're going with pulp-era super science, perhaps the airship's hull could be made of some experimental super material ("proto-duraluminum") that's very light but highly durable. If it's a conductor like metal, flying PCs landing on it could be hit with an electrical charge boobytrap.

How about rocket engines for an emergency burst of speed to escape? Or for added versatility, the dirigible could set down on a body of water, pump out the hydrogen/helium and pump in water, and become a submarine; good for escaping or for sneaking up on a target.

Smoke/cloud generating equipment would be handy; the dirigible could fly over an area hidden within its own innocuous-looking cloud.

To keep the heroes from simply blowing it up or blasting it out of the sky, the lifting gas in the dirigible could be mixed with a new toxic nerve agent; if the airship is destroyed over a populated area, a lot of innocents will die.

[Cyberknight]

Love the idea of a super-zep :)
If you really want to be odd / unusual, what about a 'catamaran' design with a pair of rigid hulls (each of course festooned with power turreted 7mm and 12.7mm MGs), with a platform section between them. The top of the platform would give you a place for your aircraft launch / recovery systems, the labs could be in the mid-decks platform area, and the platform's underside could have the obligatory bomb racks, gantry cranes (for getting heavy supplies from ground bases, and an escape chute / escape pod for the Master Villian. You could even have 'towers' at the corners of the platform mounting heavier AA guns (3-5") as a tip of the hat to the Baron's former castle.

I think I'll go take my meds now

Cyberknight

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
Love the idea of a super-zep :)
If you really want to be odd / unusual, what about a 'catamaran' design with a pair of rigid hulls (each of course festooned with power turreted 7mm and 12.7mm MGs), with a platform section between them. The top of the platform would give you a place for your aircraft launch / recovery systems, the labs could be in the mid-decks platform area, and the platform's underside could have the obligatory bomb racks, gantry cranes (for getting heavy supplies from ground bases, and an escape chute / escape pod for the Master Villian. You could even have 'towers' at the corners of the platform mounting heavier AA guns (3-5") as a tip of the hat to the Baron's former castle.

I think I'll go take my meds now

Cyberknight
One of the funkier villains in the old, original, Spider-Man cartoons had one of these. Only he was flying WWI-style biplanes or triplanes, armed with paralysis (?) ray guns.

[BNakagawa]

Maybe this guy could have captured a super-scientist Tesla clone to work for him.

Then he could build a giant array of charge harvesters so he could fly into thunderstorms and absorb electricity from the clouds and then threaten cities with lightning storms if they didn't send up baloons filled with provisions and valuables. If they didn't have baloons he could always parachute some down.

This could also be used as a defensive weapon to ward off fighters.

If you build the hull/skin as self-sealing, then it should have a low base def plus a bonus against any attack that is a penetrating type weapon. This makes it extremely resistant to bullets, but very vulnerable to some yahoo jabbing a saber into the side and riding it down like a swashbuckler on a sail.

$0.02

[Mutant for Hire]

Weather control is also useful for concealing the zepplin's existance. It could always travel inside a storm front of some sort and have lightning as part of the defenses. That would be one of the reasons that planes would have a hell of a time against the thing.

[Trebuchet]

Edgar Rice Burroughs' pulp novel Tarzan at the Earth's Core featured a rigid airship whose lift was provided by vaccuum. It featured an airtight skin made of a supertough "experimental" metal. (The ship was even German-made IIRC) When the shell was emptied by vaccuum pumps the ship became lighter than air and floated. This would really work, and would certainly seem super-advanced to WWII era characters. And of course, since it doesn't need hydrogen (potentially explosive) or helium (extremely expensive and rare in the 1940's), it could go anywhere. :)

[AlHazred]

Vacuum-filled ships wouldn't work in RL. I'll probably go with hydrogen. The American government was worried that the Germans would use helium to build war machines, so they forbade any company to sell helium to the Zeppelin company. So they used hydrogen instead; it provides more lift anyway, which allowed them to carry more passengers. I can foresee a plotline where the Baron (it's always a Baron, isn't it) has brought his airship/castle to America and tries to steal a quantity of helium to make it safer. Hijinks ensue.

As far as electrical attacks and lightning-filled clouds, well, static discharges can lead to the end of a hydrogen-filled airship. I'll avoid that for the time being. Of course, if that helium theft works, the PCs could have more difficulties the next time...

[BoloOfEarth]

One suggestion, though not for the zeppelin itself: have a huge base carved out of the side of a mountain. Nice and inaccessible, but the heroes can investigate the thefts of explosives from all over the region, maybe hear of odd blasting in the mountains, etc. If they haven't encountered the zeppelin yet, that would be an interesting way to see it for the first time, and if the location is not accessible by the team's plane, it allows for the Baron and his zeppelin to get away.

[BoloOfEarth]

Oh, as far as weaponry is concerned, how about a Wind Vortex Cannon (patent pending). I'm thinking a huge hull-mounted thing that is hard to aim, but sends a blast of air that, focused, does damage, or wide-spread (read: AE Cone), causes flight problems for airplanes and helicopters/gyrocopters (Flight and Gliding Dispel, only vs. wing/rotor craft; the pilot needs to make Combat Piloting rolls to recover from the stall and spin). Heck, turn the Cannon aft and it provides a brief burst of acceleration.

Of course, smoke projectors (white smoke to look like clouds) is another given.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by AlHazred
Vacuum-filled ships wouldn't work in RL.1) Why not? A vaccuum is certainly lighter than any gas, so at least theoretically it should work. (The practical problems of a vaccuum chamber 500 feet long might be another issue entirely.)

2) You're worried about real life in a discussion of flying bases inhabited by a Nazi nobleman in a world with superheroes?

With a vaccuum-ship even if the hull gets breached they need only patch the holes and pump out the air. With hydrogen or helium airships the villains would need to find a sufficient supply of the gases, which might be difficult. Oh well, at least with a helium-filled ship you can make the heroes talk funny.

[RevHooligan]

Of course, you could use a fictional gas the Barron invented. Something with a silly name. Also, the idea of inviting the PCs to a ball onboard is too cool to not use, but maybe the zeppelin is soo big, they don't even realize they're in the air. The place will be all faux stone and walnut. The trick is getting them aboard...

[tmutant]

You could have the super-scientist evil Baron invent hydrogen fusion to produce helium. Then the heroes have to stop him from delivering the process to his Nazi masters in Germany. Maybe give him a lobotomy afterwards, and put him in an asylum, ala The Shadow. :D

[Twilight]

If you want some more ideas, I reccomend trying to find the episode of Batman: The Animated Series that featured Jonah Hex. The airship that R'as Al Ghul used in that episode sounds like just the thing you're looking for.

[The Monster]

I've run a zeppelin-based pulp JI campaign for years; I Know A Few Things About Zeppelins....
(but my wife knows more...)

Don't use hydrogen, unless you really want everyone to try to set in on fire - even if it wouldn't be that easy in RL, you'll get a big argument when someone tosses a match at it and it doesn't just go poof. Use helium or a fictional gas (or some totally rubber-science foofaraw like that vacuum ship). Note: the Hindenburg wasn't designed for hydrogen; some of the safety devices and procedures that would have been in place on an H2 ship were not on the Hindenburg. The only reason they didn't use helium was that the only source for it at the time was in the USA, and we wouldn't let Nazi Germany have access to such a strategic material (the government strategic helium reserve program wasn't shut down until a few years ago).

Now, about the ship...

My thought on rocket/jet fighters. Problem with the exhaust and thrust power involved (flame and pressure on a lighter-than-air frame). I'd stick with high-powered prop jobs, perhaps with some kind of V/STOL capability - maybe even Osprey-type rotating wings. Those could easily be launched from the top (historically, planes were launched & retrieved on hooks lowered from the bottom, so you could even have it both ways). This does give a bit more SHIELD-flavor, with a landing platform on top, but oh, well, not everything we do can be totally original. Crimson Skies has kewl pulpy planes for the period.

Gun/missile platforms of course, you seem to have tacticals well enough in hand. Bombs of course. With supers and wild pilots (a la Crimson Skies) you'd have to prepare for boarding actions; marines (aerines?) with some points in Swinging or even hang gliders/ultralights could be a surprise; there might even be deployable boarding nets for marines to use for climbing. Air torpedoes, etc.

IIRC the largest ships were some 800 feet long - btw, check out the American ships Akron and Macon, the finest military airships ever built; that's what I based my zeppelin on. Yours will have to be much larger to accomodate a real superbase.
Big prop engines along either side for thrust (the Akron had six, maybe 8, it's tired and I'm late), and there's little reason they couldn't swing up or down for further control - again, maybe too SHIELDish for you, but it makes too much sense. You'd have a loading bay with big power winches so that you don't have to go into hangar for resupply.

One big hint: go to Star Trek for ideas. It's what inspired my campaign. You have a big, independent ship with lots of people, well-armed, with defenses, weapons, engines, entertainment areas, crew quarters, galley, etc. Anything you see on ST will have its analog on this ship (OK, no holodeck, just a movie projector). Even the transporter could be paralleled with a small, fast winch which ferries up to six people to the ground . (Oh, that brings to mind the "cloud cars" - little one-man pods lowered from the zeppelin for observation, so the ship could remain hidden in the clouds while still keeping a lookout below.)

A ship which uses Captain Nemo's mysterious power source from 20,000 Leagues could fly forever without refueling. Solar power's another possibility. The idea of charging batteries from electrical storms has great possibilities for fun.

On weather: I recall a statement by the most successful airship captain ever, as to why he never crashed a ship: to the effect of : "I just flew around the storms instead of trying to go through them." If you can arrange weather control, even of a limited sort, you'd have a major advantage - really, even reliable weather prediction would have saved lives and ships in RL. That reminds me, be sure to put radar on it. Maybe it strikes you as a "duh" but it was a Really New Thing in the 30s, and only became deployable on an aircraft later in the war.

Even on a helium ship, there'd probably be a strong prejudice against smoking. To save weight, there'd be a constant sense of things being light or even flimsy, even if richly appointed. One ship (IIRC the H'burg) had a piano - made of aluminum to save weight. Intercabin walls would be little more than traditional Japanese wood/paper walls. Hardpoints of course would have some armor (gondola, auxiliary control room, forward gun emplacement...).

One interesting thing that happened IRL (I think it was the Shenandoah crash) was that when the ship broke apart, the tail section managed to land in one piece; the tail airfoils provided some semi-controlled semi-gliding capability which saved lives. The supervillain base might have that kind of thing designed in, so that the tail, gondola, and maybe even the nose can split off and come to a more or less safe landing. With a separate gondola, the nose might even be able to conduct independent flights and reattach, kind of like the Star Trek saucer. It would either operate as an unpowered balloon or have a small internal engine for thrust.

In my campaign, the people on board are divided into the airship crew itself and the staff - the latter being the various scientists, linguists, and other SMEs who don't actually run the ship systems. The whole thing is under the captain, but it allows the ship to operate as a military unit while the scientists conduct their research more or less separately, without assigning them ranks within the military ladder.

That should be quite enough for now. I can blather much longer of course (what gamer can't?), but it's time to get back to MOO3 before bed.

[BoloOfEarth]

Great post, TheMonster!

The Akron and Macon are definately must-check-out for a zeppelin flying base. I used them and the Hindenburg as partial inspiration for my modern Champions campaign fixture, an airship casino.

There was a website for a neat-looking airship design, at www.quantumaerostatics.com (http://www.quantumaerostatics.com) , but I can't seem to pull the site up right now. Basically, the frame was a geodesic design rather than the standard rib-and-ring frames. I can't remember when Buckminster Fuller's heyday was, but I think this could be applied in that time period. Their design also had no fins, instead relying on 30 rotatable engines for maneuverability. This allows higher maneuverability even at lower speeds, which fins don't provide. However, IMO it just didn't look quite right without the fins...

The big thing, if you're interested in reality, is keeping the frame's weight down. A super-alloy (like Lord Liaden suggested) could go a long way here. Also, increasing the diameter does wonders for increasing volume (and the lifting capacity for all that extra LTA gas).

The Hindenburg also had plastic fixtures (yes, plastic existed then -- the first plastic from cellulose was presented in 1862, and the first totally synthetic plastic was patented in 1907). I'd replace The Monster's wood/paper walls with wood/cloth walls, though, just to keep the PCs from running right through them.

BTW, I believe the Hindenburg's piano was an aluminum frame with cloth covering, to save even more weight. Also, the Hindenburg had a smoking room with an airlock-type entry and negative air pressure within the room, plus the only lighter or matches on the airship. (Passengers had to turn over all of theirs to the purser before boarding.)

There's lots of stuff on the web pointing out the pros of using hydrogen. It has more lifting capacity than helium (15% more by volume, IIRC), can be easily extracted, etc. The initial design for the Hindenburg and Graf Zeppelin may have been for helium, but when the Germans couldn't get any from the US, they redesigned for hydrogen, taking advantage of this greater lifting capacity to add more internal passenger/crew area.

Also, if you use hydrogen to power the engines, you only have to return to the ground for food. (Use water condensers to collect water vapor.)

Actually, you can use both hydrogen and helium, since the lifting gas is held in multiple gas bags. (Hindy had 16 gas cells.) That way, if the players are the destructive types, you can say that the bag they're trying to light up is filled with helium. You don't need to tell them that only one of every three gas bags is helium-filled, and the others contain hydrogen...

[ChuckB]

Maybe have the zeppelin protected by valkyries on flying horses or something.

[SkyKnight]

I believe that some real-life designs called for multiple layers of gasbags. You can have inner gas bags loaded with Hydrogen and outer bags loaded with Helium. Even if they puncture the inner Hydrogen bags, they are surrounded with inert Helium and won't burn anyway. You could also put a pseudo-science fire retarding chemical into the Hydrogen to make it safer, or maybe mix it with Helium, which will make it much harder to reach flash point.

Maybe a good lifting source would be "Super-Ionic Lift Cells" which are charged by lightning and lift better than Hydrogen.

[Trebuchet]

Mentor recently ran a fun game in which his master-villain Master of the World and his superpowered henchmen were based in a giant airship. After a running fight through a Turkish palace (Don't ask.), the villains blew a hole through the ceiling of the palace and escaped to their tethered giant airship with MidGuard hot on their heels. Our two martial artists, Eagle Eye and Zl'f, leapt to catch the tether ropes and began climbing up to the airship in a scene wonderfully reminiscent of 30's pulp fiction. Only one of our available team, Silhouette, could fly and the team's teleporter, Lt. Kilroy (As in "Kilroy was Here") TP'd up through the bottom hatch of the gondola. Once we got inside the huge vehicle it was like something out of a Pink Panther movie, with heroes and villains ducking in and out of doors and hatches to hide and strike at each other. Outside, Silhouette couldn't punch through the metallized exterior, so she finally Desolidified through the hull and then went to full Density Increase (All 400Ktonnes) and did a high speed Move Through which succeeded in seriously damaging the airship. Then we heard a downward countdown begin: 30 seconds...29...28...27... We assumed it was a self destruct device, so after a frantic but unsuccessful scramble to find the bomb we finally abandoned ship at the count of 3. Much to our irritation, the countdown turned out to be not a self-destruct countdown but rather for the launching of the villains' rocket powered escape vehicle located in the tail of the airship, and hanging on to Silhouette hundreds of feet in the air we watched helplessly as they literally rocketed to safety, sans one member whom Zl'f had defeated and we had taken prisoner in the palace now miles away.

That was our second encounter with the Master of the World's goons (We've since had a third), and like the other encounters we've basically managed tactical victories but strategic draws each time we fight. (The developing rivalry between our brick Silhouette and their brick Fezzik is fast approaching legendary status.) We've managed to run them off and capture one each time, but the Master seems to have a steady supply of supervillains to fill vacancies in his ranks. They are a pretty tough team, and we haven't even seen him yet. :)

[Agent X]

Anybody seen floorplans for the dirigibiles? It's all well and good to see schematics that explain how they fly but I haven't been able to find any graphics of the space human beings actually used on the ships. This would be helpful for the AlHazred too I"m sure.

[Vondy]

I would like to point out that the Uradel/Briefadel class, as well as the German monarchy, was done away with in 1920 as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Certainly there were several "Vons" in the Nazi heirarchy, but they weren't properly nobles any longer. Further, a goodly percentage of the Uradel and Briefadel class considered the Nazis scum. Kaiser Willhelm II refused to endorse Hitler and left Germany in the latter 30's so that he wouldn't be used as a puppet symbol for the Nazi regime [hence he's buried in Denmark]. His wife was reported, after having met the Fuhrer, to have told her servants: "open the windows and get the stench out!"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the character, but be aware that Nazis and Prussians weren't the same group of people, and know that he would essentially be the product of a propaganda stereotype more than he was a product of historical accuracy. He is a "classic bit", however.

That being the case you might want to go here http://www.fordanimation.com/ and click on the 2d art section. Some of the concept zeppelins he came up with for the Crimson Skies game - that didn't get used - totally rock.

[Token Female]

IF this goes through, I'll try posting my actual post. I'm really frustrated because I've gone through two attempts to post, only to be told that I'm not logged in or registered, when, in fact, I AM.

Arghh!

Mrs. Monster

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
1) Why not? A vaccuum is certainly lighter than any gas, so at least theoretically it should work. (The practical problems of a vaccuum chamber 500 feet long might be another issue entirely.)

A vacuum is not lighter than any gas; while I don't know how a vacuum-'filled' container works in water, I believe it sinks. Again, I may be wrong.

However, when you're talking about atmospherics, a 'lack of air' does not provide buoyancy; in fact, it guarantees the reverse. While buoyancy is a matter of the atmosphere INSIDE the object being of lower pressure than the atmosphere OUTSIDE the object, a complete lack of ANYTHING inside the object means that ... you have Just The Object. Yes, the object desires to seek its natural pressure equivalency, thus desiring to rise; the fact that there's ZERO pressure on the inside means that nature's simply trying to fill it, not shove it into the stratosphere.

Again, I don't know all the specific details, but I'm a) absolutely certain this will not work for an airship, and b) half certain this doesn't work for liquids, i.e. water. Somebody feel free to correct me on the latter ...

[AlHazred]

Wow, I sit on the list and worry that I'm posting too often and "shouting people down." I do other things for a few days, and the list fills like Saddam Hussein's ego on Dictator Appreciation Day...

Good ideas. Can't get to them all while I'm at work, but a few points:

1) I've got a book called Inside the Hindenburg which has some decent cutaway paintings of the interior. I visited the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshaven last month while visiting my relatives, and I can vouch for the accuracy of the drawings -- they're spookily well done. It's a short book (oversized, only 32 pages) but Borders had it on sale for $1.99 and I couldn't resist.

2) I've spent some time on Luft '46 (http://www.luft46.com/), which is a great resource on Nazi "paper projects," that is, plane designs that either never got off of the drawing table, or were only produced in small experimental quantities and never made it to production. There's some great stuff in there. I've given the players a V/TOL plane from a design from that site. The rocket planes I'll be using are the Messershmitt ME 183s, which were gliders that had almost 8 minutes of rocket power. They were designed for tactical interception and home defense, and were never meant for typical battlefield conditions. The idea I had is, they could be used as throwaway interceptors, deployed as gliders; when they get far enough away from the Zeppelin, they ignite their rocket packs and jet over to the heroes' plane and engage them. After 7 and a half minutes of combat, they lose powered thrust and glide to a landing. Once there, the Baron really doesn't care what happens to them. Maybe the pilots take suicide capsules, or they've been poisoned and need to take an antidote every day, or the planes themselves self-destruct when the rocket charge is done; I haven't worked out the Baron's personality in that much detail yet.

3) Regarding the vacuum dirigible, what Wyrm Ouroboros said. I'm and engineer, and I'm running a pulp superscience game for physicists, computer technicians and mechanics. I know what I can get away with, and I know what I can't. :)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros
A vacuum is not lighter than any gas; while I don't know how a vacuum-'filled' container works in water, I believe it sinks. Again, I may be wrong.You are wrong. A vaccuum is the (near) absence of all matter. Gases such as helium or hydrogen are comprised of matter. It's obvious to anyone that nothing weighs less than something. Hydrogen and helium don't provide lift because of some magical anti-gravitic properties, but because the heavier substances in our atmosphere like oxygen and nitrogen force them upwards just as water pushes an inflated inner tube back to the surface. In essence humanity lives at the bottom of an ocean of air.

Now there would admittedly be tremendous technical problems with building a vaccuum-lifted airship. The shell would need to be very strong to resist the atmospheric pressure, just as deep sea submersibles need to withstand tremendous pressures; in fact it's unlikely that any currently known substance would be strong enough without being absurdly heavy. But such advanced materials would not be unfeasible in a world with superheroes. Perhaps a carbon fiber or other high-tech material would provide sufficient strength without being too heavy. But an vaccuum airship is at least theoretically possible even in the real world. In fact, this idea is not new and has been kicked around for decades. The real problem rests with the fact that in order to be strong enough to withstand atmospheric pressure the shell would need to be very heavy. In order to generate enough lift to get off the ground with such a heavy shell the ship would need to be very large, which of course makes it heavier still. Right now it's a Catch-22. But someday we might invent something light and strong enough to make them a reality, in the meantime we can use unobtainium or absurdium. :)

[AlHazred]

You're absolutely right. A vacuum weighs nothing at all. Thus, there's nothing pushing against the envelope to keep it "inflated;" very little pressure is required to crush it like a beer can.

I've seen a video of a demonstration (can't find it online anymore), where a steel drum was filled with steam and then unceremoniously dropped into a kiddy pool filled with cold water without letting the steam out. The steam lost it's heat, becoming water and creating a large vacuum in the drum. The 55-gallon steel drum was crushed instantly.

I'm not averse to creating the superscience necessary to come up with material strong enough to make this possible. But if I do, the bad guys are going to have some incredibly tough body armor... ;)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by AlHazred
I'm not averse to creating the superscience necessary to come up with material strong enough to make this possible. But if I do, the bad guys are going to have some incredibly tough body armor... ;) And this is bad because...? :)

Such a ship would probably need a very complex latice of internal supports, and would be very large. Of course, a kilometer long (or larger) airship would be pretty cool IMO. (Of course, I'm also a big fan of 30's & 40's pulp fiction like Doc Savage and The Avenger.) Considering WWII-era battleships were only about 600 feet long, the most plausible reaction from the heroes when they finally see this thing would be "Oh. My. God." It should be like the first time you saw Star Wars and realized just how huge the Imperial cruisers were. :eek:

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by AlHazred
I've been doing some work on my Golden Age Superheroes/Pulp Heroes campaign, and I've decided to make one of the main villains a Nazi mad scientist/Prussian noble whose purpose is to keep the heroes busy at home so that they don't go to Germany to fight. I thought it would be cool to give him an interesting base, but the whole "German castle" thing didn't work because it needed to be in the US.

Then, last time I visited Germany, we went to the Zeppelin museum. I've decided to give him a "castle" in the sky -- a giant zeppelin! I figure his ancestral castle was destroyed during World War I, and he rebuilt using "high technology". I've even gotten inspiration from the SHIELD helicarrier and Baron Wulfenbach's dirigible/castle in Girl Genius.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to make it interesting? I mean, I could just take the zeppelin from The Ultimate Vehicle and upgun the Size a notch or three, but I'd like to make it unusual. Any thoughts? What about pictures I can use as inspiration?

How about instead of JUST a Zepplin, how about a rigid-gas-bag launching platform, sort of a flying aircraft carrier... HUGE, with a couple of Zepplins and a squadron of hot Nazi babes flying messershmidts... and just for fun, throw in a cloud generator that conceals the base...

[Logan D]

If you've ever played Final Fantasy 7, I direct you to the Highwind airship for an excellent example of "steampunk" airship design. And it's a _beautiful_ ship as well.

It might be a little too advanced for a Nazi era campaign though. I don't know what keeps it aloft, because while it does have obvious gas envelopes all over, they don't appear to be large enough in proportion to realistically to the rest of the ship to lift it. Of course we _are_ talking about a _fantasy_ world here, so the Highwind probably works via differnt principles. Maybe they have some type of gas that has greater lifting properties. Or hydrogen/helium iteself works different in that universe.

Nevertheless, you could possibly take some design cues from it. It has much of the right "feel" to it, IMHO.

Alternately, a Highwind style ship might make a really cool _hero_ base ship.

Imagine if the heros get their own airship and get into a aerial battle with the villain's airship/base. You could have the infiltrators, non-flying bricks and martial artist types being dropped onto the airbase for fighting inside, while an aerial battle rages outside with Nazi fighters and flying heros dogfighting it out and the two airships trading machinegun fire trying to shoot each other's lifting envelopes to hell.

That could be quite an exciting final battle!
http://www.tabletsofdestiny.com/ff7/highwind.jpg

[AlHazred]

The Highwind is nice. Would be nice to find wallpaper-sized scans, but I guess tiny thumbnails will have to do for those of us who haven't played the game (which includes my entire crew.)

If I posit Trebuchet's vacuum lift, and superstrong materials, it becomes doable. Most of the structures are then housed in the pods, and "takeoff/landing" is done with the aid of hooks lowered from the structure.

Hmmmm...

[Cyberknight]

But more in-period, you might take a look at the USS Akron and USS Macon. They were rigid airships designed as flying aircraft carriers, with 5-6 fighters each. The concept seemed to work pretty well, other than a bad habit of breaking up when flown into / through thunderstorms. A good Google search can find all the photos you need. I seem to recall a line-drawing of a follow-on class that would've been even larger, and carried a full squadron of scout planes.

Cyberknight

[Logan D]

Originally posted by AlHazred
The Highwind is nice. Would be nice to find wallpaper-sized scans, but I guess tiny thumbnails will have to do for those of us who haven't played the game (which includes my entire crew.)


Ask and ye shall receive! :D

It's a differenet angle, but between this and the other pic, you should have no trouble spotting all the major design features and such.

[AlHazred]

Thanks, LoganD! Sad that there aren't any larger scans available; looks like a lot of work went into a memorable vessel.

I'd attempted to find more online about the Akron a few weeks ago, but the site must have been down. The Navy has a great deal of info on it's historical site.

I found the following link particularly good: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h80000/h80769.jpg

May have to see whether I can manipulate the image in Photoshop. My artistic talents are slightly inferior to most stick-figure artists, but we shall see...

[Cyberknight]

You might have better luck looking for info on the Acron's sister ship, USS Macon.

http://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/gallery/macon.html

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Sparrowhawks%20of%20the%20Macon.htm

I hope those links came across correctly.

Cyberknight

[Prometheus]

A few suggestions for the details on the Zeppelin:

1) Observation Deck- A reasonably sized room with a glass (or other, lighter, suitably transparent material) bottom. A dais or scaffolding would keep the crew safe, but a stray bullet or an unexpected topple during a fight would add some nice drama.

2) Aerial Harpoons- Every floating fortress needs a tractor beam. A good way to coax the character onto the zeppelin (cripple their transportation) while giving them the means to do so (the line itself).

3) Cloud Cover- It's been mentioned before, but I think it needs to be stressed. A couple of Dry Ice Fog Generators will keep the heroes from swarming the base the second it floats into town.

4) Posh Interior- No Baron would dream of taking to the skies without velvet wallpaper, a grammaphone, or some expensive objets d'art.

5) Air Force- An all female squadron (the Valkyries , of course) that maybe double as the Baron's personal guard. The rocket propelled planes sounds better for the Baron's last ditch escape sytem.

6) Teutonic Sounding Name- Don't call it the Argo. Depending how cliched you want to get, don't settle for anything not named after a historical Prussian figure or that doesn't include "Wulf" in it.

[AlHazred]

Thanks, Cyberknight! Good links, all. I keep waffling between revolutionary designs and traditional ones.


Originally posted by Prometheus
1) Observation Deck

Nice. I'll use it. I actually have a "breaking glass" sound effect that could come in handy...


2) Aerial Harpoons

Good idea. I'll play with it a little and see if I can put a superscience spin on it.


3) Cloud Cover

The PCs first adventure involved an invisible plane that had sonic cannons on board, with which the bad guys destroyed buildings. I have a feeling we know where the villains got that technology.


4) Posh Interior

I'm going to go with classic Continental styling. Think luxury train car; the idea is to include all the touches the Baron would have at home.


5) Air Force

Nice. I'll steal this one too. ;)


6) Teutonic Sounding Name

I'm thinking of naming it Luftschloss Falkenburg. It's German for "Air Castle Falkenburg."

[BoloOfEarth]

National Geographic had an excellent article on the discovery of the wreck of the Macon, including some photos and a cutaway showing locations of crew areas and the airdock for the planes. It was in the January 1992 issue.

My personal favorite was some of the history, like when the captain of the Macon sent his planes out to locate the cruiser USS Houston (President Roosevelt was aboard) and drop off newspapers. Of course, since the planes were taking off and "landing" at the Macon, there was no need for landing gear, but they attached a fuel tank to the belly of each. Now, imagine what the crew of the Houston thought when two planes appear, far from land and with what look like bombs on their bellies, and make a low pass over the ship...

Anyway, the crew quarters were located along each side toward the bottom. There was a secondary control room in the lower aft fin, a walkway down the center bottom, and at least one hatch on top. The Macon had propellers that swiveled 90 degrees, making it the largest vehicle to take off and land vertically, and carried 5 biplanes that latched onto a hook on the underside and could then be lifted inside.

In the design, don't forget water and fuel tanks throughout. If you're going for realism, it would need ballast to maintain stability.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Breaking glass, vast winds immediately thereafter...

Air Harpoons: I'm not entirely certain when the US Navy began using steel/metal cables, but an ultralight metal cable with the spring-loaded harpoons (goes through the plane, then the prongs go *snap* out) would make them tough bastards. Hmmm -- titanium cables... ha! Better yet, little 'seperation' charges. Picture this: a thick-shafted harpoon, but the metal of it is crosshatched. If/when it penetrates the airplane, an electrical signal is sent down the wire. First, a small charge at the base (where the cable is attached) blows, and the harpoon is 'left' inside the plane. Set off by the separation charge, a short (3-second) fuse runs inside the body of the harpoon, then to set off a 'solid explosive' inside the harpoon -- the first plastic explosive, perhaps. ;) The 'scoring' means that the body of the harpoon will shatter along those lines, into razor-sharp jagged diamonds that chop apart everything in the ship.

To demonstrate this, of course, you simply MUST use a bomber -- perhaps during the aforementioned ball, they 'drift' over a city and a bomber (more guns on it, see?) comes up and attacks the Stinking Nazi Airship. The characters see the line snake out, harpoon at the fore, and the Baron says, "Oh, this will be good; pay attention, now." Then the Baron gives a moment-by-moment description of what happens (i.e. describes the harpoon's workings) as the thing hits the plane just behind the wings ... then blows the bomber in half when it detonates.


Originally posted by AlHazred
I'm thinking of naming it Luftschloss Falkenburg. It's German for "Air Castle Falkenburg." [/B]
And that's a very good name.

[dbsousa]

I think you should use harpoons, but instead of trailing explosives, let them trail a long metal wire. At first, the heroes think there was a grappling accident. But when lightning strikes the target three times in the next few seconds, they know that is no grappling weapon...

[dbsousa]

OK, I have been messing with campaign cartographer...

[AlHazred]

I've settled on a name for my villain. After watching a discussion of recycling characters, I've decided to recycle one from an old Cyberpunk game, who was later recycled into a Vampire game. Now he has another lease on life: Baron Wolfgang von Shreck (or, loosely translated, "wolf-trail from fear"). He'll be a scientific genius with a Gadget VPP, figure 90 point or so pool.

Luftschloss Shreck; I like the sound of that. Plans forming, Campaign Cartographer calling, plots thickening...

I think I'll be using those Cloud Generators after all, with some Sack AS-6 (http://www.luft46.com/misc/sackas6.html) airplanes. These were propeller-driven planes with an important quirk: their wings were constructed to form a circle. I'm thinking: foo fighter outbreak...

[Token Female]

Here’s the FOURTH time I’ve written this out. Pardon me if I’m repeating information given by someone else already, but I haven’t had time to read all the new posts. (Yes, this site/program has eaten what I’ve written three times, claiming I wasn’t logged in; I *had* been logged in. My INT must be running low, because it took me that long to figure out that I should just write it in Word, and then paste it into the reply space. At least this time I can just copy it and try again if it gets eaten!)

So—the main things that I think haven’t been covered are a few specific items from the big US rigid airships.

Firstly, has anyone mentioned yet that they were aircraft carriers? Five Curtis C-9 Sparrowhawks could fit inside the hangar in the envelope. To drop an aeroplane, the ’plane was picked up from it’s hangar berth with a crane. There was a metal loop on top of the ’planes and the crane had a hook-like structure. It was then swung into position over the hangar opening, lowered to just below the ship, the plane engine was started up, and then the ’plane was released from the hook. To retrieve a ’plane, the “flying trapeze” (as the apparatus was known) was lowered. The ’plane matched speed and direction with the ship, and maneuvered its loop onto the hook. When it was caught properly, the ’plane cut its engine, and the trapeze raised it back into the hangar, and replaced it in its proper location. Truly ingenious, and according to what I’ve read, much safer and easier than ground landings and takeoffs.

Secondly, the basic setup of the internal compartments from bow to stern was: Control car (below & outside the envelope); Officer’s cabins (sleeping 1-4 men each, I believe); Group areas (galley, I’m not sure what else); hangar; Crew quarters (bunkrooms for at least 8 men each, possibly greater). There were two gangways (one each side) on the lower portion of the ship, and one running along to top of the ship for access and maintenance. The ships had a capacity for roughly 100 crew. In both the crashes, they were actually carrying around 75-80 men. Following the Akron crash (73 lives lost) flotation devices were kept on the Macon, and when she went down, only 3 lives were lost.

Thirdly, they held 12 gasbags, one behind another, in the upper half or 2/3 of the envelope. These ships were designed so that roughly half the gasbags could be compromised and the ships could still maintain lift. If they lost as few as three from the same front or rear section, however, the ship was in trouble, due to the natural effect of the still buoyant end rising, and the non-buoyant end dropping. This is apparently what did in the Akron. The Macon had rings (the round, body shaping sections of the frame) which were insufficiently attached to the fins to survive a storm. As you can see, structure and engineering can be made to play as necessary for your gaming needs. Say, a critical hit on a structural element might cause all kinds of damage, as bad or worse than simply hitting a single gasbag!

Finally, there was a secondary control car located in the lower fin at the rear of the ship. Decide beforehand if you use this whether or not that car can override the main control car, or vice versa. Could be handy for PC’s trying to take over the ship. After the R101 (I think) this was probably a consideration in the event of the breakup of the ship.

Oh yeah, two significant events in the annals of the US airship program. Before (and causal of) the better “low mooring” techniques, a sudden tailwind tipped the Los Angeles vertically. It literally “stood on its head” as it was moored only by the nose of the ship. One man died, others were injured, I believe. Of course, while lots of stuff was literally “bolted down” many smaller items weren’t, and they made darn certain THAT didn’t happen again! Of course, your baddie (or your PCs if they gain control) might not know about that. Great special effects potential. The other event was one that became famous in our own game, (only we turned it into full year long cliff-hanger). One of the ships was being grounded by a ground crew—lots of men holding on to many, many ropes. Another unexpected wind-shift, and higher than ideal amount of buoyancy caused the ship to suddenly rise into the air—three men didn’t let go immediately, and were hauled into the sky along with the ship. Two fell more than a hundred feet to their deaths. The third managed to hold on for over an hour (might’ve been two), until he could be winched up. (That rope was not designed to be winched, so they had to do a little on the spot engineering.) Flying from NY to LA is nothing; man were HIS arms tired!

I love to talk airships, particularly the US rigid airship program. So many people are entirely unaware of its existence. I can recommend the books “Sky Ship” or “Up Ship!”, as well as the websites that I have seen in a quick scan of the messages. I am on a messaging list for fans of LTA (lighter than air) craft, and if you have any questions that you can’t find answered elsewhere, I can recommend connecting to a group like that.

Thanks so much,
Laura B. (who is tired of people assuming I’m nothing *more* than the token female of our group and who is also married to Mr. Monster who frequents this board)

[Cyberknight]

Anoter airship fan?!
I really wish the Navy had built one of the 'second generation' zepp/carriers...as I understand it, the design would've been 925' long and carried 9-12 aircraft including torpedo bombers.

Another thing that's more in line with this thread, though, would be the possibility that this Nazi Zep would have air-search radar. The early radar antennas somewhat resempled bedsprings, and were rather bulky to be fitted on ships, but you could hide a *huge* array in the structure of a zeppelin, and create a (for the time) frighteningly effective "AWAC".

Rambling on...if anyone's into 'alternate history', imagine the impact one of those hypothetical rader-carrying zepps could've hade if it were cruising 250 miles or so from Pearl Harbor on 7 December '41.

Yep, time for more meds.

Cyberknight

[Vondy]

I'm a zeppelin nut. I'm including a knockoff of the Macon in a short story I'm writing.

I picked up the January 1992 National Geographic at half price books yesterday. It has a wonderful article on the Macon with a fold-out illustration that shows a cut away of the airship itself and a detail of the fighter-traspeez that was used to release and retrieve the sparowhawks.

There's also an interesting anecdote about the first time the pilots removed the landing gear and put on an extended fuel tank for missions over the water. The tanks apparently looked like bombs and when they buzzed a ship President Roosevelt was visiting the captain thought the president was under attack.

One of the graphics shows a scale comparison with a 747, which could fit inside the Macon.

Wow!

[AlHazred]

... I'm picturing squads of Rocket-Pack toting Waffen Ubersoldaten, the Baron's specially-treated supersoldiers, carrying small Rocket Guns as they fly in formation in front of a zeppelin in the clouds...

... I'm seeing a huge zeppelin, it's envelope constructed of translucent superstrong aerogels, dumping mist out of ports on the side as it conceals itself in the clouds; several large Flying Wing aircraft wait in its hanger to release their explosive burdens on a hapless American public...

... The Baron sips wine as he ponders his latest instructions, received from the Enigma II operator. Behind him, rocket-soldiers train for the coming day when America enters the war...

[The Monster]

as a side note, you may want to prepare yourself for jokes regarding your villain's name - in re: the animated movie a couple years ago "Shrek"

I like the name; it's just good to be aware of possibly unfortunate associations...

[RevHooligan]

Oh, man! I want to play in this sombitch! I'm am so envious of your players!

[talisman]

An idea for a picture: if you search out "concept art" and zeppelin, you should get some of the stuff for Command & Conquer. When you do, there were about 6 unused and very cool pictures of zeppelins that look very menacing.

[AlHazred]

Couldn't find the Command & Conquer zeppelins, although I did find a lot of Westwood Studios concept art that's pretty good. Still stymied for a large-size visual of a cool, superscience zeppelin. Not that that's stopping me...

I'm trying to recall an old forum discussion. I don't remember what started the thread, but the conversation eventually covered the Maus (a German supertank design that clocked in at 188 tons). Anyway, several proposed Nazi infantry weapons were discussed, and I was trying to jog my memory. Anybody know what I'm talking about? This was last year sometime, I think.

[talisman]

AlHazred:
E-mail me and I'll send you the pictures.

[AlHazred]

I plan on posting the version of the Zeppelin I worked up, so I thought I'd Bump this higher on the list.

I've also worked up some of the other super-types that work with the Baron (so at least this post won't be entirely without content...)

Fury: His name given to him by the American press, I've basically lifted Feuermacher wholesale from Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, changing only his background to fit him into 1939.

Übermensch: For this guy, I took the All-American from Champions Universe, changed his Stars to Throwing Knives, renamed his Stripes into Klebstoffgranaten, and replaced his Rocket-Powered Punch with an experimental machine pistol that fires Armor Piercing rounds (necessary for him to threaten my team's brick). I also gave him super Leaping so that he can keep up with them, but removed some Contacts and a few anachronistic skills. I'd be happy if I could come up with a better name.

Baron von Shreck: The master villain of my piece has yet to make an appearance on stage; I prefer my master villains to spend their time plotting and scheming rather than deal with what is (to them) a minor group of unimportant obstacles. I've been working him up by using the Millennium City Dr. Silverback, renaming his Assorted Devices VPP into a Pulp Superscience VPP (increasing it to 90 points), and reconfiguring his Sciences. Oh, and taking 5 points from Silverback's STR and dropping it into COM; I assume the Baron should look the part of a "clean-limbed Aryan". I'll undoubtedly be changing him to suit the players' desires in a master villain; I love to satisfy their cravings for a truly epic foe, so that they enjoy beating him more.

Siren: Another villain that I'd like to rename, Siren is a superspy, more of a Pulp Anti-heroine than a Supervillainess. I took Dr. Macabre's Mesmerism Multipower set from Champions Universe, and added in Super-Disguise, Advanced Sneakiness and Advanced Hiding In Shadows. She's hypnotized two PCs already (one with a post-hypnotic suggestion, one in order to create the Plot situation in the last session), and is still a complete mystery to them. Maybe I can make her a medieval German faerie creature, or a Rhinemaiden; must look into their mythic abilities...

[proditor]

Since you seem to have veered away from using the Komet, I don't need to do the "Oh my Lord, never put T-Stoff in a Zeppelin" dance. ;)

Some of the nice designs off of Luft 46 include things like the ME 265 or 328, and The Hienkel Wespe. Although for a pulpish feel, I'd suggest the Henschel P.75 and 87. Just give any of those planes folding wings (Like the ME-109T and the JU-87C destined for the never completed Graf Zeppelin Aircraft Carrier) and you are in business. Depending on the time frame, I'd suggest saving jets or rocket planes for the Baron himself. A prototype that he has been allowed to use (or made himself?) as opposed to just the 50th ME-262 to roll off the production floor.

Radar: Yes, very nice to give it to the Zep, but the germans lagged behind the allies for the entire war at this game, so putting it there should be even MORE special. Just confirming the Radar's existance and type could be an entire mission in terms of important info for the war effort.

Also, the germans were very good at optical sights and wire guided missiles. One of the Fritz-X guided bombs sank the Italian Battleship Roma in 43, so maybe have the good Baron getting ready to sink the USS Constitution as blow to morale. Maybe he just wants to shoot a Fritz-X at the white house. Having the first cruise missiles (sort of anyway) is a big icky thing for your PC's to stop.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. Love the idea. I'd love it if I could convinve my players to play a WW2 setting.

Good Luck!!

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by proditor
Since you seem to have veered away from using the Komet, I don't need to do the "Oh my Lord, never put T-Stoff in a Zeppelin" dance.

Not to worry. I'm using gasoline to "dope" the zeppelin's skin. And mounting flamethrowers as the primary weapon.

Okay, not really, but it would be a hell of a firework...

[Cyberknight]

Actually, by 1939, radar isn't particularly 'cutting edge', even in Germany.

Gesellschaft für Elektroakustische und Mechanische Apparate (GEMA) was working on a 2-meter range-and-bearing system as early as 1934, and had a primative but successful 1.8 meter / 165MHz air-search set under development in February of 1936.

Given that, it shouldn't be that large a stretch for a super-technical villian type to have a decent if not spectacular radar capability in place by 1939, particularly with the large amount of space available in a Zeppelin.

Cyberknight.

[proditor]

It's not Radar per se, but the continuing electronic warfare that results from the use of bandwidth. The germans were always 6-12 months behind the curve at this. At no point during the war did they manage to jump ahead of the allies. Basically, it went: Germany deploys a radar system. England and the US develop acounter measure and a new wavelength for their sets. Germany plays catchup as they get jammed or chaffed into blindness.

Now I agree that if the Baron is a super genius in the comic vein, it makes perfect sense for him to jump ahead and have something like cascading frequency Radar, or one that is just so darn powerful that it'll burn through almost anything. But that's the hook. How did he get that big a jump on the allies, and does "normal" Germany have this too? Oh No! Send the heros to get these answers before the war effort is doomed! ;)

[AlHazred]

Hmmm...

Seeing as villains usually have some capability of predicting the heroes, I'd considered giving him an additional villain, from the Ahnenerbe; I figured he'd have a crystal ball or something.

Radar backed by his powerful Zuse computer, would give him that and be more in keeping with his Pulp Superscience Overconfidence.

Cool ideas!

[proditor]

I've been inspired by this thread to give a WW2 campaign another shot with my group.

I'm having wonderfully convoluted thoughts about the French Submarine Surcouf....

If you don't know this monster, check the link.

http://groups.msn.com/Surcouf/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us

My current thoughts are to have an American version, or simply "grab" the Surcouf in 41 when she "sinks". It all becomes a cover story for an extensive refit where she gets tricked out for commando/super work.

[Shadow Warrior]

A good science fiction story featuring a super dirigible is Philip Jose Farmer's "The Dark Design" (The Dark Design (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345419693/103-0498742-1503802?v=glance)). This features a real beast of a rigid airship called The Parseval. It has all sorts of super whizzy stuff like torpedo launchers, bombs, on board helicopters, steam powered machine guns, etc. Good source of ideas for a combination of retro and high tech.

Come to think of it, there are probably stats and descriptions for it in GURPS Riverworld. The blurb on the SJG website would seem to suggest that there are... GURPS Riverworld (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Riverworld/) . Sounds like an ideal source to me!

[Shadow Warrior]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[SDK]

Originally posted by AlHazred

I'm less interested in tactical details (he'll probably be using salvaged Martian Heat-Rays as primary weapons), and more interested in the special touches that make any base memorable. Launch assist/arrest platforms for Messerschmitt Me 163B Komets and other experimental planes? If a platform, is it on top of the gasbag, or slung underneath? Large side-mounted propellers to provide lift/steering? Faux stone wall and tower designs, emulating the character's lost castle? Or pulp-era continental styling, making it look like a luxury train car? The devil is in the details...

You could use a similar lost tech for his air force, the Auto-Gyro. These could easily use the top as a landing platform.

[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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[dbsousa]

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