Variable Summon

[Edsel]

I rarely use the Summon power but right now I am building a creature with a natural summon ability. So perhaps one of you who is more familiar with the Summon power can advise me.

This creature is called a Mazoku. it has a natural ability to summon Astral creatures and/or Demons. A Mazoku can choose to summon a single powerful Demon or a number of lesser strength creatures. Can you legally purchase a variable Summon that allows you to expend all your points in the power to summon a single powerful creature or choose to use some of those points to increase the number of creatures at the expense of less base points in the summoned creatures?

I guess I could build a multi-power with numerous slots to achieve this goal but it seems there ought to be a more elegant method.

[Frenchman]

I agree, there should be a more elegant way to do it, but the only book-legal way is a multipower.
I have been playing around with the idea of Variable Adders (10 points gets you 5 to put into any adder or into base power), but I haven't playtested it at all, and I'm trying to think of a way to be able to unify it with Variable Advantage so that adders and advantages could be interchanged...

[Edsel]

Well dang, that is what I was afraid of. I went ahead and posted a question to Steve and we'll see what he has to say about it.

[Blue Jogger]

I tried to do with Aid but it became more trouble than it's worth. The easy way is to just buy it with a Limitation on the doublings.

Summon a 500 point creature, Expanded Class (+1), 200 Active Points.
PLUS
x64 doublings, Expanded Class (+1), (60 Active Points), Lim: Each doubling lowers the creatures total cost by 25 points. (-1), 30 Real Points.

Why 25 points? Since it's 1 for 5 points. Reducing 5 points of Summoning (not counting the advantage) would reduce the creature's cost by 25.

You could probably argue for a -1 1/2 or -2, but the ability to pick the maximum amount of doublings based on total cost is very useful.

So it ends up being...
1 500-point creature
2 475-point creatures
4 450-point creatures
8 425-point creatures
16 400-point creatures
32 375-point creatures
64 350-point creatures

[Edsel]

This sounds promising and I may adopt something like this. I still have my question before Mr. Long. I am interested to see if he has a better official answer.

[Killer Shrike]

I ran into this a long time ago...here's the thread I made for it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9299&highlight=summon

[Killer Shrike]

I ran into this a long time ago...here's the thread I made for it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9299&highlight=summon

This is the closest I got to a solution before moving on:

Lets say you can Summon 100 point creatures and you can summon x8 of them.

What Im suggesting is some Advantage or Adder whereby you could instead scale the points you have in Summon. In other words, you spent 5 points per doubling and this advantage or adder would allow you to recoup those 5 points per doubling on the fly to recalaim 25 summon points per doubling. In the example case then it would break down like this

8 100 or 4 125 or 2 150 or 1 175 Creature


Im thinking a +1/4 Advantage or a +10 Adder or something along those lines should cover it.

<hr>
As a completely different (but combinable) situation for variation among the point levels of the creatures summoned, Im talking about a different advantage/adder that allows you to shift points around within the number of creatures you can summon. Using the example 8x 100 above:

Lets say you can Summon 8 100 point creatures, but some of the creatures are more powerful than others. Theres no mechanical benefit to summoning say 4 100 point critters and 4 50 point critters -- you might as well summon 8 100 point critters every time.

What if you could instead take say 1 of the creature allocations you have and pay 25 points of it (which works out to 5 Real points) to double the number of creatures at a max point equal to the remainder of that creature slot.

For example, you take 1 of your 8 100 point creature slots. You have 100 points to work with; if you subtract 25 points from this you can have 2 75 point creatures from that slot. If you take 50 points from it you can have 4 50 point creatures from that slot, and if you take 75 points from it you can have 8 25 point creatures.

Lets say you want to summon 6 Biguns and 4 Middluns. With 8 100 point slots you can get 6 100 point Biguns and 4 75 point Middluns.

Im thinking a +1/4 Advantage or a +10 point Adder would probably work here too.

[Edsel]

I think I prefer the idea of using something like a +10 Adder to achieve the desired effect. Since its already a +5 Adder to double the number of creatures using an adder for this seems to better fit the mold as it were. Fortunately the Custom Adder or Custom Modifier are easy to use in HDv3.

For a +10 Adder you are allowed to take points from your level (in 5 point increments) and put those points into the Adder for number summoned.

Example:
Mazoku Summoning Ability: Summon 500-point Demons and/or Astral Creatures (Adjustible Level and Number of Beings; +10 Adder), Expanded Class of Beings Demons and other Astral Creatures (+1/2), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (275 Active Points)

Grossly powerful I know, but the creature with this ability is a Mazoku Nobel, essentially a Prince of Hell. He can summon a single Brass Demon (500 points) or a number of lesser demons and astral creatures.

[Hugh Neilson]

What Im suggesting is some Advantage or Adder whereby you could instead scale the points you have in Summon. In other words, you spent 5 points per doubling and this advantage or adder would allow you to recoup those 5 points per doubling on the fly to recalaim 25 summon points per doubling. In the example case then it would break down like this

8 100 or 4 125 or 2 150 or 1 175 Creature


Im thinking a +1/4 Advantage or a +10 Adder or something along those lines should cover it.

+1/4 gets you a variable summoned creature within a tight group. What if we simply priced out one creature at the maximum points the Summon would allow (1 175 point creature in your example), then make the next one a lower-point version with Duplication (duplicates never recombine; -0). That would be a 146 point creature, plus 29 for 1 Duplicate = 175.

Next tier down would be a 142 point creature, +28 for a duplicate, +5 for twice as many duplicates, so three creatures.

Then a 137 point creature that spends 27 on Duplication, +10 for two doublings, and so on down the chain.

[Edsel]

Hmmmm. There should probably be a practical limit to how many points you can shift, otherwise there could be a butt load of really low powered Demons running around.

1 - 500 point
2 - 475 point
...
262,144 - 50 point
524,288 - 25 point... at this point you don't need to fight, you just eat all of the available food.

Perhaps each +5 of additional Adder should allow you to transfer 5 points from level to number summoned. So for a +15 Adder you could Summon a single 500-point Demon or up to x8 425-point Demons. Then as the GM you could just put a cap on how much of that custom adder a character is allowed to buy.

Perhaps it would be better to say that the adder allows you to drop 10 points from the level to gain 5 points in the number of creatures. In that way every time you double the number you summon their base level drops by 50-points instead of 25?

Based on how the math is working out with a high level spell a Custom Modifier of (+1/4) or (+1/2) might be a better idea.

Oh well, much to think about.

[Edsel]

I like this version using a custom modifier (+1/4) pretty good.

Mazoku Summoning Ability: Summon 500-point Demons and/or Astral Creatures, Variable Numbers (Up to x8 425-point or lesser creatures; +1/4), Expanded Class of Beings Demons and other Astral Creatures (+1/2), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (275 Active Points)

Of course a practical limit on the creatures summoned is what the GM rules are available. For instance Brass Demons are 500-points so you can summon one, Iron Demons are 455-points each so you could summon two of them. Next down the chain are the 385-point Lesser Demons so if you want to summon 8 critters it'll have to be them.

It's kinda neat when the points come out to a nice round number. I am thinking that this will just have to handled as a GM call on the specific spell in question.

[Fireleaper]

I am wondering why you need to alter or add to the system?

Summon 500pt Demons/Astral Creatures, x64 Creatures (+30), Expanded Class (+1/2), Slavishly devoted (+1), (325 active)

5 Shot Autofire on up to 325 active points of summon (162 Active), Each "shot" removes 100 total points from each summon (-1) 81 real

May need to slide the limitation on the autofire, but it should work and if you are doing these things on the level of of Xellos's boss you don't really need to worry about points:)

[Edsel]

Another thing I have thought about is that the really limiting factor on Summoning is the drain upon the caster. In that case I could build the Summon really potent like that but impose a limitation that drains END per creatures summoned or based on total points value summoned. That way you could easily summon one or two but summoning a lot would leave your magical END Reserve drained. That approach would not require any custom stuff to be added which is definitely a plus.

Yeah, creatures like Xellos's boss, Greater Beast Zelas-Metallium, should probably be a mere plot device, but lesser summoning ability for a lot of the creatures seem to work the same way with lesser power to summon lesser creatures.

[Killer Shrike]

+1/4 gets you a variable summoned creature within a tight group. What if we simply priced out one creature at the maximum points the Summon would allow (1 175 point creature in your example), then make the next one a lower-point version with Duplication (duplicates never recombine; -0). That would be a 146 point creature, plus 29 for 1 Duplicate = 175.

Next tier down would be a 142 point creature, +28 for a duplicate, +5 for twice as many duplicates, so three creatures.

Then a 137 point creature that spends 27 on Duplication, +10 for two doublings, and so on down the chain.

Because Summon is already enough of a PITA when it comes to bookkeeping without adding Duplication into the mix?

[Hugh Neilson]

Because Summon is already enough of a PITA when it comes to bookkeeping without adding Duplication into the mix?

Fair enough - but you need to write up the summoned creatures either way, so the Duplication effort is only a one-time issue.

What I found interesting about the exercise is how the power level drops by a lot in the first duplication iteration, and very little thereafter, so once we're summoning 4 creatures, doubling the numbers takes very little off their point costs.

Based on the results, I think your +1/4 advantage becomes reaosnable - you would get a pretty similar result by using "variable creatures - tight group" and lower powered creatures with Duplication, but the Duplication approach reduces points per creature at a considerably slower rate than the approach you propose.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I write up creatures that represent an individual member of a particular type. So do bestiarys. So do most other people.

Thus when you go to summon "4 Whatsits", you just grab a "Whatsit" write up and use it for 4 different monsters. Opting to treat the write up as being one creature and stopping to add and calculate the cost of Duplication 100% similar to make that 1 write up equate to 4 creatures would be inefficient and impractical, making more work for the GM for no benefit.

[Hugh Neilson]

I suggest that, if you were using the "duplicates" approach, you would simply jot down the maximum points available when you have a creature on its own, a creature with 1 duplicate, 2 duplicates, and so on. Having done that, the duplication approach becomes a "reduce power to get multiple creatures", just with different point reductions for the maximum at each number of creatures.

Given that, I'd say either approach works - you're providing a different tier of points for a +1/4 advantage, and my approach requires a +1/4 advantage for a tight group of summoned creatures, so the point costs will be similar. I guess my approach would be cheaper with "summon anything", since using the duplication aproach means you don't need another +1/4 to make your Summons scalable, but overall the costs and results should be pretty close.

[Sean Waters]

To expand on fireleaper's idea a little:

Summon

200 point creature: 40 points, variable sfx +1/4 (limited group) 50 points

16 creatures summoned 20 points

so you can summon 16x2000 point creatures from a limited grouop for 70 points.

Now if we do some sort of locout limtiation on the cost of the top 20 points of summon, so that you cannot use the multiples when the power is running at full tilt:

20 points of summon at +1/4 = 25 points, with lockout limitation -1/2 on the multiple summoning = 17 points

So it looks liek this when done:

20 point summon +1/4 (variable sfx limited group) 25 points
+20 points of summon +1/4 (variable sfx limited group) lockout on multiples 17 points
Multiple creatures (x16) 20 points

SO the final cost is 62 points nad you can summon one 200 point creature, 16 100 point creatures (or 2x175, 4x150 or 8x125). Each 'multiple' would summon a different creature (which is what the variable sfx are for.

Now this looks a bit clunky as a build but the actual effect and game play should be very straightforward indeed, and the cost falls between 70 points (Summon 200 pointx16 with variable sfx) and 40 for the summon one x200 point creature, with the extra utility making up the cost, all without a framework. If you could ONLY summon one or 16, that might be worth a limitation (-1/4) on the multiple cost (all or nothing).

Quaere: can you apply the lockout cost to both the summoning and the multiple cost as each locks the other out?



4

[PhilFleischmann]

Why not just do it as a VPP? I'd give the control cost at least a -2 Limitation for "Only One Power Available: Summon" and another lim for "Astral creatures and Demons Only." Then you can build whatever Summon power you want. (And it wouldn't be difficult to write them out in advance of play.)

[Frenchman]

Why not just do it as a VPP? I'd give the control cost at least a -2 Limitation for "Only One Power Available: Summon" and another lim for "Astral creatures and Demons Only." Then you can build whatever Summon power you want. (And it wouldn't be difficult to write them out in advance of play.)
Short answer: VPP method is really, really really expensive...
Because then a Summoning Spell with, say 120 Active Points (including a +1/2 advantage for variably creatures which you don't need in a VPP, so the VPP can be 80 points) and around -2 in limitations (G&I, RSR, Focus) More than -2 is pretty common for a spell. The spell ends up costing 40 points.
Now you buy that 80 point VPP - We don't add Cosmic, so changing the pool takes a full phase and requires a skill roll. Lets say the GM is nice and the roll is a Magic roll. So the VPP now is 80+40 points, but lets add some limitations - the same -2 of limitations as are on the spell, in addition to the -2 Summon Only limitation. Now its 80+8 points, and it takes a full phase and a skill roll to change the summon power...
Thats 40 points vs. 88 points. Big, big difference in cost.

[Sean Waters]

It would probably be OK if ALL your spells were built into the same VPP, assuming the summon is not the only one. That would be the cheapest method of all, I'd imagine, for anything more than 3 or 4 spells....

[PhilFleischmann]

Short answer: VPP method is really, really really expensive...
....
Thats 40 points vs. 88 points. Big, big difference in cost.
If the spells have -2 in limitations, that means you can have three of them at a time in the VPP, reducing the need for the Skill Roll and Phase to switch.

Also, there is a common house rule about the base Control Cost being half the maximum Active Points of the pool (which I use). 80 Active means the Control Cost starts at 40 points (before modifiers). But the Real Points in the pool need not be higher than 28, if you're going to have -2 in lims on every spell.

[Frenchman]

If the spells have -2 in limitations, that means you can have three of them at a time in the VPP, reducing the need for the Skill Roll and Phase to switch.

Sure, IF you can predict the next three spells you're going to need before combat starts.


Also, there is a common house rule about the base Control Cost being half the maximum Active Points of the pool (which I use). 80 Active means the Control Cost starts at 40 points (before modifiers). But the Real Points in the pool need not be higher than 28, if you're going to have -2 in lims on every spell.

. . . how is that different from the way they are costed in the book?

[PhilFleischmann]

Sure, IF you can predict the next three spells you're going to need before combat starts.
How many guesses are you going to need? I thought the whole idea here was to be able to trade off some power of the summoned creatures for greater numbers of them. Since you're already limited in the types of creatures summoned. So you have your three default slots as Summon One Big Demon, Summon a Few Medium-sized Demons, and Summon Several Small Demons. One of those should suffice for most situations.


. . . how is that different from the way they are costed in the book?
In FREd, the Reserve Cost is the maximum Active Points of any one power in the VPP. Has this changed in 5ER?

[Frenchman]

How many guesses are you going to need? I thought the whole idea here was to be able to trade off some power of the summoned creatures for greater numbers of them. Since you're already limited in the types of creatures summoned. So you have your three default slots as Summon One Big Demon, Summon a Few Medium-sized Demons, and Summon Several Small Demons. One of those should suffice for most situations.

Good point. I assumed that the pool would be bought at the minimum level to summon the most powerful creature (without expanded type of being advantages), and therefore the pool would need to be changed to summon a different kind of demon. It is more expensive to include the advantage, but still not as expensive as buying cosmic (probably)


In FREd, the Reserve Cost is the maximum Active Points of any one power in the VPP. Has this changed in 5ER?

Yes it is, and then the control cost is half that before modifiers. I'm guessing from this post that you meant to say reserve cost, not control cost in your previous post.

[Rapier]

I'm almost wondering if there couldn't be some kind of Variable Advantage construct that would allow you to summon a TOTAL of x pts of creatures.

Example:

Buy the power as Summon 1 - 500 pt being.

The VarAdv would allow you to summon 2 250 pters, 2 200s and a 100, 5 100s etc.

But I do agree that this is a problem. I've just been building them as MPs.

Another thing I would like to be able to do is buy:

Summon 1 400 pt being.

Then purchase a naked or partially limited bonus +100 pt being.

Summon 1 400 pt being PLUS +100 pt being Summon Extra Time 1 turn PLUS +100 pt being Summon Extra Time 5 mins.

This way you don't have to spend points on a 400 pt Summon, a 500 pt Summon and a 600 pt Summon. Not that it's much of a deal with an MP...but still.

[PhilFleischmann]

Yes it is, and then the control cost is half that before modifiers. I'm guessing from this post that you meant to say reserve cost, not control cost in your previous post.
No, I really did mean to say Control cost, but I wasn't completely clear in what I was talking about. To clarify:

Also, there is a common house rule about the base Control Cost being half the maximum Active Points of the pool (which I use). And this maximum Active Point value need not be the same as the Reserve cost. For example, you could have a VPP with a 40-point Reserve and a 40-point (base) Control Cost, costing a total of 80 points (assuming no modifiers which, as usual can only be placed on the Control Cost). This yields a VPP that can have up to 40 Real points worth of powers, each of which may be up to 80 Active points. Obviously, in order to fit an 80 AP power into the 40 RP pool, you'll need at least -1 in Limitations. Or you could have a VPP with 100-point Reserve and 20-point Control Cost (base again), which would allow you to have 100 Real points of power, with no one power being more than 40 Active points. This would cost 120 points total.

In the case of this particular variable Summon construct, you'd need only 27 points for the Reserve (so you can fit an 80 AP power with -2 in lims), and 40 base points for the Control Cost. The CC could then be made "cosmic" for 120 points, and then limited with "Summons only" (-2), "only to Summon Demons/Astral Creatures" (-1/2? maybe), and -2 in common spell limitations, that's 24 or less for the Control cost. The total cost is then 27+24 = 51.

[Frenchman]

Ah, I see how it works now... but I still think a Variable Adder is a cleaner, more universally useful build. It just requires taking some concepts from Advantages over into Adders.