Mega-Scale Overkill!!! [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Wyrm Ouroboros

Jun 27th, '03, 08:05 AM

Don't forget to add the Megascale advantage to the ghost cost of his base leaping -- which, actually, is off his base STR. So do you buy the STR Megascale or just the inches of Leaping you get off it?

Considering that you did the math right, yes, that's correct. However, Megascale has a big huge STOP sign next to it. Is anyone else taking megascale on any of their powers? If not, and you don't like the effect (which I understand), simply disallow Megascale as an option. "I'm not comfortable with having to deal with that, Todd. I'm going to disallow Megascale." End of story.

If, on the other hand, you have other players using Megascale and you don't have problems with it, perhaps you could 'simply' require a minimum purchase of Leaping -- 10" perhaps, adding on that which you get from STR. That means he can leap 20km, but at least he's paying 15 points for the full power in order to get it...

Oh yeah, one other thing. Even if you allow him to do the 2.5 point Megascale on his innate Leaping, well -- if he does that, he CAN'T LEAP IN COMBAT. At least I don't think so; Megascale powers seem to be 'all or none'.

---- Edit after a read-through

Ahh, yes, there it is. 'The tradeoff for MegaScale is this: you can't use the Power on a personal level anymore. A MegaScaled Power can't be "scaled back" to cover or affect a range or area lower than one kilometer per hex. A character with MegaTeleportation --' (Lila Cheney, anyone?) '-- can teleport from the Earth to the next galaxy in the blink of an eye, and can even reduce his power so that he's only teleporting 1" ... but he can't Teleport across the street.'

So your Mighty Mighty Bosstone could then Leap 1" (1 km), but could NOT jump 10" (20m). Feel free to smile at him evilly the next time he asks you if he can do it.

Talon

Jun 27th, '03, 08:30 AM

It's obviously a high-end power that would be inappropriate for many games.

The correct way to build it would be to buy a separate 10" Leaping power with Megascale as described above. This raises the cost a little bit but still lets the character do normal leaps.

To be fair, the leap should have an accuracy scale of about 1km; if the character starts leaping around any sort of populated area, he could easy start landing on (and destroying) things.

Klytus

Jun 27th, '03, 08:50 AM

I'm in total agreement with what has been said so far. No power, Limitation or Advantage (even the ones without the Stop signs) can be used unless the GM says its OK. Personally, I like the MegaScale advantage, but it only gets used in my games for movement. Many characters in my games that can fly or teleport have a MegaScale version of that power. It ends the "How do we get there in time?" problem.

If this friend of yours wants to put MegaScale on his normal leaping as opposed to spending the points for a specific long-range jumping power (like the Hulk) then he is a Munchkin and needs to be treated as such. If he wants a seperate power, however, there is no reason I can think of to deny him a "get me to the scene of the crime fast" movement power.

P.S. Dang... this is only post 200 for me? Maybe I should just think comforting thoughts about quality over quantity...

J4y

Jun 27th, '03, 09:03 AM

To be fair, the leap should have an accuracy scale of about 1km; if the character starts leaping around any sort of populated area, he could easy start landing on (and destroying) things.

Doesn't it also require some sort of sense power or you'll inadvertantly be trying to do a move-through on the skyscrapper 8km away you had no idea was there?

Fedifensor

Jun 27th, '03, 01:39 PM

I believe Steve said that you could make MegaScale "switchable" for an extra +1/4 advantage...thus, you would have the choice whether to use the advantage on your jump.

Armitage

Jun 27th, '03, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Fedifensor
I believe Steve said that you could make MegaScale "switchable" for an extra +1/4 advantage...thus, you would have the choice whether to use the advantage on your jump.

You may be thinking of the +1/4 Advantage that lets you reduce the scale to a minimum of 1" = 1km.
e.g. 10" Leaping, MegaScale +1 (1" = 1000km). You can't leap less than 1000km.
10" Leaping, MegaScale +1 1/4 (1" = 1000 km, can scale down to 1" = 1km). You can leap a minimum of 1 km.

dbcowboy

Jun 27th, '03, 07:02 PM

In my mind, Leaping is one of the more dangerous modes of movement because once you leave the ground....you can't turn. Megascale version without the proper telescopic senses to scout out desired landing zone=opportunity for GM enjoyment. Bus load of nuns headed for your impact spot? oooops. Gonna pass through the flight path of an airport? pray.

Also, curvature of the Earth puts the horizon at roughly 7 miles I believe. If someone's superleap is any farther than that, they better have N-Ray telescopic vision to see where they want to land before they make that leap.

And definitely need two versions of any movement that is desired to be megascale. Otherwise tell them, yep, you've landed in the area, the villians are roughly 100 hexes north of you. No, with that megascale advantage you can only leap a minimum of 1km (500 hexes). What's your running? 6"? Well, you'd better get started hoofing it....

Vanguard

Jun 28th, '03, 12:22 PM

Our Gaming group has come to the conclusion that MegaScale is MegaRidiculous when taken way to far. One of the players had a Variable Advantage and used it to kick his Flight into MegaScale. I can't remember the exact speed but we calculated that what would actually arrive at his destination where bits of scorched armour and some teeth.

We've pretty much decided to regulate MegaScale to Vehicles and bases and even then try and make sure that it doesn't get too out of hand.

Trebuchet

Jun 28th, '03, 01:07 PM

Megascale is a "Stop Sign" Advantage for a reason. It can easily be abused, bur when used conceptually can be very useful. One of the characters in our game is the avatar of a storm diety, and he uses a Megascale Change Environment to represent a summoned thunderstorm. It would be ridiculously expensive to try to build a mile and a half across thunderstorm using Area Effect Radius.

Jhamin

Jun 28th, '03, 03:57 PM

Megascale is for more "plot device" or "out of combat convenience" type effects.

Megascale movement has a long tradition in the genre. If we go to the comic books:

*Angel from X-men is supposed to be able to reach mach 1, but only in unusual circumstances, and never in combat.

*Iron Man used to do this trick where he would fly into low orbit, wait while the earth turned underneath him, then fly down and land halfway across the globe.

*Flash can go anywhere on earth in like 1/10000 of a second.

*Name escaping me, but the new mutant who could teleport across the galaxy to a private Dyson Sphere.

*Superman pretty much goes as fast as he wants. He has flown from the Moon to Metropolis in about 10 seconds.

None of them "come apart" when they pull this trick. It's comic book physics. In story they all have various reasons why it is ok for them to do this, but in general nobody worries about it.

Megascale is a great idea. It cleans up so many writups. Back in the 4th edition days there were lots of characters who had 10 points of flight with like x1024 NCM. I think 5" megascale works just as well, is alot cheaper, and is easier to work with.

DocMan

Jun 29th, '03, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Jhamin
*Name escaping me, but the new mutant who could teleport across the galaxy to a private Dyson Sphere.

That would be Lila Cheyney. She was a mutant teleporter who could only teleport stellar distances. In order to teleport accross the street, she had to teleport to another planet and teleport back.

Doc

tesuji

Jun 30th, '03, 04:59 AM

The obvious rulesisms..

for +1/4 megascale can be dialed back to the 1 km range.
Its ridiculously cheap to buy 1" megascale.
Its also ridiculously cheap and iirc sanctioned to buy megascale as a slot in a movement multipower.

IMO...

In practice, megascale is either a flee the scene or a get to the battle kind of thing. Thats pretty much a cheap plot device. How many times does it MATTER whether you get to the next city in 30 minutes or in 1 minute in your games? Thats how (un)important megascale is. Now, if you are running a campaign based on interplanetary Gumball Rally... thats another story.

IMO...

The stuff about "no accuracy within 1 kM" is utter nonsense. I do not know of a time when i saw a leaper jump 1 km and miss his location by a KM... thats like a 90 degree play in his direction of travel... 45 degrees to either side of his intended target. Thats nonsense. Thats not how the really fast movement works in the comics is it? Does flash miss his destination by KMs when he runs there at superspeed? Does the XJet miss Muir island?

The whole "we need to make megascale inaccurate in order to balance its price" is to me a very extremely noticeable case of making the genre fit the system... trying to shoehorn in a "counter-problem" to help those who see it as too cheap for its points in the game. Its very HERO but not very superhero, IMO.

YMMV

dbcowboy

Jun 30th, '03, 05:21 AM

We were originally discussing the issue of a player applying megascale to their only form of movement. I agree, megascale IS very inexpensive for the movement it provides, but because it's so inexpensive it's probably reasonable to purchage a separate form of megascale movement in addition to the character's regular combat movement. Otherwise, I'd advocate showing them the error of their ways in whatever manner you choose. I offered some suggestions, feel free to ignore them. It's your game after all.

Primal

Jun 30th, '03, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by tesuji
The whole "we need to make megascale inaccurate in order to balance its price" is to me a very extremely noticeable case of making the genre fit the system... trying to shoehorn in a "counter-problem" to help those who see it as too cheap for its points in the game. Its very HERO but not very superhero, IMO.

YMMV
Nothing in the system says Flash can't run up to the specific spot from the other side of the country. The idea is just that he can't get the whole way with just the megascale.. he would have scads of normal scale running too..

The very extremely noticable situation occurs when someone tries to go cheap.

but, as you said, YMMV..

tesuji

Jun 30th, '03, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by Primal
Nothing in the system says Flash can't run up to the specific spot from the other side of the country. The idea is just that he can't get the whole way with just the megascale.. he would have scads of normal scale running too..

The very extremely noticable situation occurs when someone tries to go cheap.

but, as you said, YMMV..

The catch is i see flash as perfectly able to run megascale down the beach.

If i take the new hero approach and apply the "error within 1 km" then suddenly flash cannot rush down the beach... since he will drift up to a KM out to sea and up to a Km in towards town and so on and so forth.

I have NEVER seen flash that inaccurate when travelling at high speeds in the comics.

I have never seen leapers who tried to leap a KM miss by as much as 1km.

i do not see teleporters who have similar miss chances.

and frankly, i have never seen characters whose chance of running into walls and the like was as great as it appears to be with megascale.

If megascale is not the power to represent all those characters with super-fast movements who use them fine to get from place to place and don't seem to have KM or tens of KM errors in their approaches... then its pretty much a HEROism (an ability to represent things characters built for HERO might have as opposed to something seen in comics.)

If i get bored, I might look to see what the characters and wehicles written for megascale for champs look like and see if they seem to imply this type of inaccuracy. I don't recall a speedster with it, but there may be one i missed.

The long and short of it is megascale with the degree of inaccuracy people want to add into the power" to make the points work right" ends up with a power i don't see in the comics much if at all. Do you know a character in the comics who, when he leaps 1 Km has a random landing zone covering anything from 5' in front of him, to 2 km ahead of him with a direction arc up to 45 degrees to either side... so that if he is facing north he might end up jumping NW or maybe NE?

I don't.

As for the getting off cheap part... in what universe.

Lets take a character with 10" flying.

If he buys megascale on his flying power at the +1/4 level he pays 5 cp.

If he buys it in a sanctioned Multipower...

20 ap multipower
10" flying 2 pt ultra slot
8" flying +1/4 megascale 2 pt.

this cost 1 pp less... with the only drawback being the difference between 8 km per phase and 10 km per phase.

if he did not want that much speed... he could just buy the following...

flight 1" +1/4 megascale and get 1 km per phase for 2 cp as an additional power without the megascale. If he wanted the full 10 km, he buys +1/2 for 10 km or maybe +3/4 for 1-10km choice using the downsizable thingy from the FAQ..

So, the characters who buy megascale on their "only movement power" which was bought to tactical levels of usefulness are not taking the cheap way out but instead getting hosed by paying more and getting much bigger headaches. They should have paid attention to HERo and bought it using a MP or bought it as a small AP with megascale different power.

IMO... a much more comic book approach would be to make NCM levels do something like x10 to movement (maybe more), not doubling, and forget this lack of control nonsense whose whole purpose appears to be to make it look like there is a downside to the points. Make the power work "like in the comics" as opposed to "like it should in HERO."

YMMV

J4y

Jun 30th, '03, 09:47 AM

So, the characters who buy megascale on their "only movement power" which was bought to tactical levels of usefulness are not taking the cheap way out but instead getting hosed by paying more and getting much bigger headaches. They should have paid attention to HERo and bought it using a MP or bought it as a small AP with megascale different power.

So you shave a couple points? I don't get where you're going with this. For a couple points, in or out of a MP, a character can go mach speeds. You want this to be cheaper?

The catch is i see flash as perfectly able to run megascale down the beach.

The Flash probably spent more than 2 points on his movement powers! He can reliably "hit the hex" he's aiming for. And yes, I can think of other characters that slam into buildings and miss where they're going by some distance... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect characters to have to use a noticeable amount of points to have a flexible and strong power and those that don't to be somewhat less.. reliable.

It is kind of clunky to buy 2 movement powers, maybe the MS advantage could have been more elegantly incorporated into movement, but the actual play mechanic works out okay.

tesuji

Jun 30th, '03, 10:44 AM

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by J4y

So you shave a couple points? I don't get where you're going with this. For a couple points, in or out of a MP, a character can go mach speeds. You want this to be cheaper?

Did you read the post or just quote it?

This was in response to the comments about only buying one movement power and how the MS is only a problem if you want to go cheap.

I was pointing out the MS multipower or the second move power at 1" with MS is the cheap way out, while the single tactical move power with MS on it is MORE EXPENSIVE and LESS useful.

For all you hero fans...MOR EXPENSIVE and LESS USEFUL is a no no.

Originally posted by J4y

The Flash probably spent more than 2 points on his movement powers!

OK lesson number 1...

Flash 1... spends 66 points on 20" of 0 end movement running... he now has some 56" of running. Whoo Hooo he is fast. But he is't doing the super speedseter flashing down the beach thing too well. Assuming speed 6, he tops out at ab mere 144 Km per hour.

Flash 2... spends 63 points on 49" tactical movement, has the same tactical speed (half move) and 136 km per hour. He spends 3 points on 1" running +1/2 10 km +1/4 downsizeable and now has a megascale movement of 1800 Km per hours or so to boot.

I am absolutely not arguing that megascale is too expensive. i am argiung that it is too cheap and so cheap that GMs and FAQs are trying to justify its cost by putting in a rather obnoxious and not-typically-seen-in-comics set of accuracy issues.

What i would rather see is an appropriately priced power that allows super speed for stratagic movement that doesn't require you to not be able to accurate fly 1 km without missing by as much as you travelled.

Originally posted by J4y

He can reliably "hit the hex" he's aiming for. And yes, I can think of other characters that slam into buildings and miss where they're going by some distance... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect characters to have to use a noticeable amount of points to have a flexible and strong power and those that don't to be somewhat less.. reliable.

Nor do I. I just wish that intermin stage between tactical moves and wildly inaccurate cheap moves were in the rulebook. It makes a lot more sense to me to make MS cost right for accurate travel and then have a limitation for "those guys who slam into things a lot or cannot tell the difference between east or north east."

There currently isn't a modifer to make megascale accurate... the closest you get is the downsizable to 1 km one that it seems many people dont like cuz it makes the 1" low ap highly modifed MS come in too cheap.

getting the 20" flash up to say 1000km per hour, without megascale, would cost about 22 more points and thats coast to coast in over three hours.

If, as a for instance, NCM multiples were x10 for +5 points as an adder, then jumping him from 144 to 1440 km per would be about 7 cp, which seems about right to me.

Originally posted by J4y

It is kind of clunky to buy 2 movement powers, maybe the MS advantage could have been more elegantly incorporated into movement, but the actual play mechanic works out okay.
it worked fine for me when i basically house ruled away the cannot fly to the north accruacy nonsense. Although practically every flier or runner picking up high mach speeds for 2 points seemed odd.

if it works for you and you dont have a problem with every high speed character not being able to fly/run/swim straight... thats cool.

I am curious how you did long range teleport? Did it miss by a km too? or does spending 1 point on a fixed location buy off that whole accuracy issue?

Primal

Jun 30th, '03, 11:17 AM

My bad tesuji.. I thought you were saying the price of Megascale was fine, but it didn't do enough.. edit: not sure why I thought that, you said right off it was ridiculously cheap.. :rolleyes: -> myself

I think we are kinda in the same camp, then.. in some ways.. If large scale movement is anything more than a plot device, I'm not sure how much I like the megascale mechanics for movement..

Honestly, I haven't been able to get enough games in with it..

also edit: I personally kinda like the "plot mechanic" movement being real cheap.. the problem happens when it moves from being plot mechanic to being a central point of the story.. it seems like it fails under the closer scrutiny..

Jhamin

Jun 30th, '03, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Primal
I personally kinda like the "plot mechanic" movement being real cheap.. the problem happens when it moves from being plot mechanic to being a central point of the story.. it seems like it fails under the closer scrutiny..

With this I agree.

Flying across the country in 10 min is cool and should cost points, but if you make somebody buy x1024 NCM on their flight it gets real expensive for not alot of utility.

As long as nobody is doing mach speed move-bys I really don't see a problem.

Monolith

Jun 30th, '03, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Primal
in the same camp, then.. in some ways.. If large scale movement is anything more than a plot device, I'm not sure how much I like the megascale mechanics for movement..
Also keep in mind that Champions is not the only genre that the HERO System is used with. In Star Hero, for example, weapons with Mega-Scale are quite common. Most large space vehicles fight at a range greater 500 inches all the time (heck, many vehicles are larger than 500 inches). The Mega-Scale Advantage was not just designed to make speedsters for superhero games. And as has been said above, there is a reason the power has a stop sign next to it.

Mentor

Jun 30th, '03, 01:57 PM

Concept, concept, concept. The PC has to have an overriding conceptual reason to allow his 10 klick leaps other than "its in the rules". Is there anything in his origins or power origin that would make this ability reasonable?

Superskrull

Jul 1st, '03, 01:51 AM

So, I take it you guys weren't plagued by Superman wannabes like I was with Con-El? As soon as DC 1 Million came out, the player called me and demanded to know how much superleap he'd need to jump to the moon like Superman 1 Million. I just count my blessings, he didn't start wanting to "punch through the time barrier" too.

tesuji

Jul 1st, '03, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Mentor
Concept, concept, concept. The PC has to have an overriding conceptual reason to allow his 10 klick leaps other than "its in the rules". Is there anything in his origins or power origin that would make this ability reasonable?

Yes, but that same logic must apply to "and i can jump a Km but will miss by as much as a km" as well. There are very few characters in comics whose movement powers are that inaccurate.

This is my primary beef with including the "fast strategic movement for cheap as a plot device" in with one universal "go to ridicuous level" modifier instead of giving it its own specific fix. You end up with a power that is not represented often in comics, a whole nuch of movement equivalents to "going plaid" for basically no cost but with a built in disadvantage that is not in genre (a very small number of characters may be the exception.)

It would be a much more precise and IMO much more friendly yo the genre answer to have made movement powers with their own pricing for accurate high speed travel (one option i presented was making +5 pts for NCM x10 or x20 speed) and then provide a spec for a limitation such as -1 (the character can miss his location by dozens of kilometers) or -2000 (the character may on occasion fly randomly into solid objects at mach+ speeds killing himself and causing extreme prop[erty damage.) Most characters do not have these issues with their strategic speed. So make the BASE power the most common one and then provide limitations and advantages to get the more complex versions for the few who do.

Well, thats it.

Enjoy your games.

MilkmanDan

Jul 1st, '03, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Jhamin
With this I agree.

Flying across the country in 10 min is cool and should cost points, but if you make somebody buy x1024 NCM on their flight it gets real expensive for not alot of utility.

The alternative is what we had in 4th edition. 10 points for FTL travel, about 100 points to go supersonic. Made no sense.

Megascale's great. Very in-genre.

TedJMill

Jul 1st, '03, 10:14 AM

I'd treat megascale and normal scale as different realms, metaphorically; for game purposes, some things happen in megascale, others happen in normal scale. When you're travelling cross-country you're operating in the megascale realm; when you're in a fight you're operating in the normal realm. If you buy just one, your power only operates in that realm; if you want both, you need to buy both, usually in a multipower.

If you just buy megascale movement you're saying "My movement power is good for travelling huge distances quickly, but not useful in fights." The specifics why it's not useful could be thought of as inaccuracy, turning limits, extra time, whatever. The exact reason really doesn't matter; for game purposes it just means your power can get you to the fight quickly, but has limits such that you don't use that power during fights.

Whereas if you buy both megascale and normal versions, in a multipower, you're saying "This is how useful my power is for travelling huge distances, and that is how useful it is for maneuvering around a battlefield." Comic-book characters would have that multipower if their powers are useful in both situations. And you'd simulate their specifics by varying how much normal scale and megascale they have; some characters are better at the tactical than the long-distance, while others are the reverse.

It's a game construct, but it strikes me as a useful one. You have your tactical battles, and you have your long-distance trips and plot-device weapons and so on, and they're pretty much separate aspects of adventures. So it makes sense to define how good a character is at each separately as well, rather than to start with a single power and try to flaw it enough so the megascale capabilites don't turn into overwhelming tactical capabilities.

Primal

Jul 1st, '03, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Squid
The alternative is what we had in 4th edition. 10 points for FTL travel, about 100 points to go supersonic. Made no sense.

Megascale's great. Very in-genre.
Hmm.. makes me wonder how people would like Megascale as an adder (when applied to movement)? Surely that has already been discussed in another thread.. anybody know off hand a good thread title to search for regarding this?

Vondy

Jul 1st, '03, 11:51 AM

I would much prefer it to be an adder for movement, especially flight.

zornwil

Jul 1st, '03, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Squid
The alternative is what we had in 4th edition. 10 points for FTL travel, about 100 points to go supersonic. Made no sense.

Megascale's great. Very in-genre.

To split hairs, isn't that really like 50 points? 10 minimum for moving 10 meters in a phase. If you go just at SPD 2, and +5 points doubles NCM, then isn't that 2,560 meters in your phase at 50 points (15 pts = 20 meters, 20 pts = 40 meters, 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2560), and 2x2,560 =5,120m in 12 seconds, speed of sound is roughly 340 meters/second, so sound moves at 4,080 meters in 12 seconds.

To the earlier point that Tesuji made (and this came up over at the M&M board as well) I think it matters a lot if characters can get somewhere in 30 minutes versus 1 minute. THat's often the difference between "they got away, you guys were too slow" and "they're surprised, they didn't think you'd be there so fast." Or any number of other things, such as the trail growing cold.

I think megascale is "in genre" but only for some high end power stuff or certain niche effects. To me, movement was costed fine in 4th. The 2x NCM is also fine to me instead of megascale. My feeling is that megascale is only warranted when something really isn't as useful as the power with extended area or range or movement.

tesuji

Jul 2nd, '03, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by zornwil

To the earlier point that Tesuji made (and this came up over at the M&M board as well) I think it matters a lot if characters can get somewhere in 30 minutes versus 1 minute. THat's often the difference between "they got away, you guys were too slow" and "they're surprised, they didn't think you'd be there so fast." Or any number of other things, such as the trail growing cold.

In real life, you are dead spot on.

In a comic book, I don't agree.

Look at it this way... say you have one character who spent for megascale a few points and got the ability to cross town in a minute, while another character wil take 30 minutes or perhaps 15 minutes because he spent those 3 cp on say a photography skill.

With a typical superhero engagement taking 20 seconds to a minutes, that difference may seem significant from a non-0scripted real world sense.

Nut in practice how many times with all the players sitting there is the "alarm goes off, bank robbery on 5th street?" or whatever "crisis we were not expecting" scenarios are you gonna look at the 15 minute player and tell him "your character gets there 15 minutes after the others do, do you wanna go get drinks while we run the fight?"

or, is it more likely that by coincidence, his character will be scripted to be in the vicinity, closer to the action so that he will arrive in time to participate in the evening's festivities?

Spidey doesn't have the ability to travel as fast as many of the heroes in the comics, but he gets to the trouble often enough. Villains get away for plenty of reasons but rarely is one of them "I out raced the superhero"... more often it being a diversion or a case of a movement ability the hero lacks... not a speed issue.

At least, from most of my comic reads, thats how i recall things. I never saw an issue of spidey where the issue was him swinging across town while faster supers handled the bad guys.

Net result, IMO, the significance **in the scenes run in an RPG/comic** of faster strategic speed seems minimal at best. As i commented earlier on a different subject, in the course of say a year in "the real world of the comic" there might have been a dozens of situations in which the hero did not arrive in time and there was basically no event... but those are normally not the ones highlighted and put "on stage" to show in the comics (to run as a session in the rpg.)

The exception is of course the "mystery, find the villains before they strike again" episodes but those cases hit everyone, regardless of strategic speed.

perhaps your games, or the comics you read, are different.

Regardless: keep in mind my preference would be for +5 pts for NCM to be x10 or x20, maybe x5 for some style games. I do not endorse the ultra cheap megascale with the cannot tell where i am going might smah into walls and kill myself limitation we have now.

Trebuchet

Jul 2nd, '03, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by tesuji
Regardless: keep in mind my preference would be for +5 pts for NCM to be x10 or x20, maybe x5 for some style games. I do not endorse the ultra cheap megascale with the cannot tell where i am going might smah into walls and kill myself limitation we have now. I tend to agree. But I also think MegaScale is a necessary thing to do do many Powers correctly, and it is very genre. Megascale movement would perhaps have been better handled as a +5 or +10 Adder per level rather than as an Advantage, but that's just my opinion. I don't mind it being a bit clumsy, but a potential 100% rate of inaccuracy does seem a bit much. I think the original idea was that if you fly from Los Angeles to Detroit, you might end up in Cleveland or Duluth. That seems reasonable as a 1-5% inaccuracy, after all a 1 degree error can multiply considerably when you travel 2000 miles. But missing by a Km when you only leaped a Km is a bit much. Perhaps a Navigation roll for a cross-country trip would be appropriate?

Nobody in our current team has MS movement, although our team vehicle does. While we have one character with an MS attack, it is Change Environment (a magical thunderstorm a kilometer across) so it's effect is not overly powerful. (And no way would I allow him to take Selective Target as an Advantage.) It often inconveniences his compatriots as much as his enemies. (Ask me how much I like my lightly defended character falling off a 4 story high castle wall in a magical thunderstorm and having to make her Breakfall roll at -4) :eek:

zornwil

Jul 2nd, '03, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by tesuji
In real life, you are dead spot on.

In a comic book, I don't agree.
...........

perhaps your games, or the comics you read, are different.
....

"...or the comics you read..." is part of it, and moreover, this is not about just 4-color traditional comics. Even this being the "Champions" thread, this is about super-hero roleplay gaming, and that is much broader than 4-color. Your post is about 4-color comics, as far as I can tell. I don't play those, at least not "straight", I don't care for them, and don't want/expect a system to veer too closely towards those. By the same token, I don't run a particularly realistic game, either, so my objection isn't about realism per se.

It's moreso about the dramatic tension of timing and speed. This is probably more akin to action movies and some of the grittier comics than 4-color comics. Every minute the team misses the mark by can make a difference. Even in a relatively "normal" 4-color-ish setting in my games it can matter though - for example, in a very recent game, the team had someone dispatched to concoct some techno-magical solution to getting into the Kingpin's heavily protected fortress. It took the character a couple hours round-trip to do it all, including importantly travel time. This allowed a villain they just defeated enough time to revive and for the Kingpin to complete his preparations, but not enough to get further reinforcements. Had the players assaulted directly, they would have faced one less major villain, although I don't htink they practically could have done so and succeeded. Hard to say. But anyway, it was all about the timing of their actions, including long-distance movement (they had to go from Oklahoma countryside to Detroit and back).

That's just "for instance", and I fully recognize, Tesuji, that this doesn't reflect yours or necessarily even many others' games. But I wil lay claim that it isn't so outside of heroic fiction and even super-hero gaming that it is irrelevant.

tesuji

Jul 2nd, '03, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by zornwil

That's just "for instance", and I fully recognize, Tesuji, that this doesn't reflect yours or necessarily even many others' games. But I wil lay claim that it isn't so outside of heroic fiction and even super-hero gaming that it is irrelevant.

The key is... all those elements of how long does it take the villain to recover... how dlong does it take his allies to arrive... how long does it take to make the bomb, how long does it take to get from the bad guys base to our home base to build the bomb oir wherevere those elements are that we need to go to... are all determined by the GM when he assigns values to them. The "time is critical" elements are determined by the G when he scripts the setting and scenario, not by the player character's movement rate.

Anyway, for me, those types of scenario drama moments are not something i arrive at by "putting things where they should be" and then running the math. The "where things should be" includes will speed and time be important to this scenario, and dont exist as a separate entity.

it never appears to me in comics that its the actual MPH a hero travels that is the determining element between win and loss or even necessarily the hardship. if the scene calls for "can he get there in time" drama, the mcguffin is far enough away for that to be the case. if "is he fast enough" is not the drama of the week, the events are closely linked enough to make travel time not an issue.

YMMV.

BTW, i run a little darker than 4 color, more like dark xman level. Definitely not street level whens a normal pistol is any real threat to a super tho.

for lower powered games, where normal cars and stuff is a likely mode of travel, where really fast flight would be out of place, i wouldn't be looking to allow MS for its usual price at all.

zornwil

Jul 2nd, '03, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by tesuji
The key is... all those elements of how long does it take the villain to recover... how dlong does it take his allies to arrive... how long does it take to make the bomb, how long does it take to get from the bad guys base to our home base to build the bomb oir wherevere those elements are that we need to go to... are all determined by the GM when he assigns values to them. The "time is critical" elements are determined by the G when he scripts the setting and scenario, not by the player character's movement rate.

Anyway, for me, those types of scenario drama moments are not something i arrive at by "putting things where they should be" and then running the math. The "where things should be" includes will speed and time be important to this scenario, and dont exist as a separate entity.

it never appears to me in comics that its the actual MPH a hero travels that is the determining element between win and loss or even necessarily the hardship. if the scene calls for "can he get there in time" drama, the mcguffin is far enough away for that to be the case. if "is he fast enough" is not the drama of the week, the events are closely linked enough to make travel time not an issue.

YMMV.

BTW, i run a little darker than 4 color, more like dark xman level. Definitely not street level whens a normal pistol is any real threat to a super tho.

for lower powered games, where normal cars and stuff is a likely mode of travel, where really fast flight would be out of place, i wouldn't be looking to allow MS for its usual price at all.

All fair enough, and where my M does V is that this is a game, not a comic book and not a story; elements are intended to be competitive situations (not against each other or the GM but against situations) and not completely scripted. The players can lose, they may not make it in time, they may not cut the mustard. As a GM, I feel they are to be presented with a challenge which will typically not be lethal (for my super-hero games anyway) and typically has a very good chance for success, but that's the limit. If they can't make it in time, then oh well, there's plenty of other situations and threads to follow up on.

Re the lower powered games, of course, I agree.

Agent X

Jul 2nd, '03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I tend to agree. But I also think MegaScale is a necessary thing to do do many Powers correctly, and it is very genre. Megascale movement would perhaps have been better handled as a +5 or +10 Adder per level rather than as an Advantage, but that's just my opinion. I don't mind it being a bit clumsy, but a potential 100% rate of inaccuracy does seem a bit much. I think the original idea was that if you fly from Los Angeles to Detroit, you might end up in Cleveland or Duluth. That seems reasonable as a 1-5% inaccuracy, after all a 1 degree error can multiply considerably when you travel 2000 miles. But missing by a Km when you only leaped a Km is a bit much. Perhaps a Navigation roll for a cross-country trip would be appropriate?

Nobody in our current team has MS movement, although our team vehicle does. While we have one character with an MS attack, it is Change Environment (a magical thunderstorm a kilometer across) so it's effect is not overly powerful. (And no way would I allow him to take Selective Target as an Advantage.) It often inconveniences his compatriots as much as his enemies. (Ask me how much I like my lightly defended character falling off a 4 story high castle wall in a magical thunderstorm and having to make her Breakfall roll at -4) :eek: Hmmm, time for everybody on the team to buy Environmental Movement: Thunderstorms :)