Mutants and Masterminds vs. HERO

[teh bunneh]

Since I was the one who actually convinced Steve Long to change the minimum from 10% to 30% in the UNTIL Superpowers Database I probably have a different perspective on the process involved then you can imagine.

I always laugh whenever I hear a gamer say "I was the one who..."

Probably because of all the different people I've personally met who said "I was the one who told Gary Gygax to <insert idea here>." I must know twenty guys who told Gary how to do the original magic system in D&D. :lol:

[Thag13]

Since I was the one who actually convinced Steve Long to change the minimum from 10% to 30% in the UNTIL Superpowers Database I probably have a different perspective on the process involved then you can imagine. Incidentally, the Firelord example still stating the original 10% because Steve Long forgot to change it.

I am getting kinda lost here....minimun of what???

[Lord Liaden]

There was none, so even a 30% system is better than nothing. :)

Oh, okay. Since you yourself mentioned it in your post that I quoted, I thought I missed something. :rolleyes:

[yamamura]

I might be mis-remembering something, but one of my turn off to M&M is the fact that I like playing immortal characters (so I am in a rut in that regard), but just to get to un-aging you had to wait until you were like level 10 or something (please excuse any mistake it has been a while since I looked at version One of the system). I like the basics of my character defined when I create them, not down the road once I made it to a certain level. As I have said I do not know what the system looks like now, but v1 did not impress me.

[arcady]

I always laugh whenever I hear a gamer say "I was the one who..."

Probably because of all the different people I've personally met who said "I was the one who told Gary Gygax to <insert idea here>." I must know twenty guys who told Gary how to do the original magic system in D&D. :lol:

I was the one who told you to make that post.

[wonder who told me to make this one...?]


Semantics and politeness online are very subjective and often very differently perceived. I know I've been told before that I 'read' a lot harsher than well, 1: I thought I was coming across and 2: than the same words or points in person come across...

[OddHat]

Since I was the one who actually convinced Steve Long to change the minimum from 10% to 30% in the UNTIL Superpowers Database I probably have a different perspective on the process involved then you can imagine. Incidentally, the Firelord example still stating the original 10% because Steve Long forgot to change it.

Your post was not flagged because you disagree with a system mechanic. It was flagged because you insulted the line editor of a company on that company's boards. This is your second warning; please remain civil in this thread.

[Black Mamba]

Your post was not flagged because you disagree with a system mechanic. It was flagged because you insulted the line editor of a company on that company's boards. This is your second warning; please remain civil in this thread.
How can that be a second warning when there is nothing inflammatory in that post? Perhaps you should actually wait for a second insult before offering a second warning?

[OddHat]

How can that be a second warning when there is nothing inflammatory in that post? Perhaps you should actually wait for a second insult before offering a second warning?

Your call.

[Shiva13]

I might be mis-remembering something, but one of my turn off to M&M is the fact that I like playing immortal characters (so I am in a rut in that regard), but just to get to un-aging you had to wait until you were like level 10 or something (please excuse any mistake it has been a while since I looked at version One of the system). I like the basics of my character defined when I create them, not down the road once I made it to a certain level. As I have said I do not know what the system looks like now, but v1 did not impress me.

1 level, Immunity: Aging.

Immunity is not that expensive a power to begin with.

The levels on powers in M&M are simply a marker that determines cost and strength of a given effect. It is nothing like the character levels in standard D20 game.

The assumed default (which can be changed by the will of the GM) is PL 10 for a starting character. Which means that in normal circumstances, a character's single power cannot go beyond an effective level of 10. This actually works a lot like an active point limit in Hero.

There is also a way of balancing accuracy and offensive power in M&M. An allowed trade-off of one for the other. So a character could exceed the PL limit with their power, and lower their maximum level to hit in exchange. This of coarse has to be approved by the GM.

[arcady]

That limit of a power to PL is only a part of 1E MnM. in 2E, PL caps are removed for any power without a saving throw. It is now normal to see PLs of power all across the board. PL 1 can be all you need for one power, while another won't get you anywhere if under 20...

[Kristopher]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't to-hit and damage (and maybe other things) combined into a single roll in M&M?

[nexus]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

I can't beleive the thread has gone on so long and remained as civil as it hasgiven some of the wars I've seen over M and M and Hero. Which is weird because the people that write and create the games seem to get along fine and they have livelihoods riding on their success or failure and the fans just have some vague bragging rights to "win".

[arcady]

If they get along so well, maybe we should start petitioning them to do a crossover module.

I'd love to see a 'variant universe where the heroes, "The Champion League", of "Freedom Bay" are an 'amalgam' of mixed concepts from each iconic team, and have to battle villains such as the "The atomic Grond" (Ok, Atomic brain left MnM... but the idea... maybe 'Grond in a Jar'?), or "Dr. Mechasimian", etc...

Hero did a crossover with SaS, but well, GoO folded and SaS was already fading to MnM at the time. A Champions/MnM amalgam would be fun to get.

[OddHat]

I can't beleive the thread has gone on so long and remained as civil as it hasgiven some of the wars I've seen over M and M and Hero. Which is weird because the people that write and create the games seem to get along fine and they have livelihoods riding on their success or failure and the fans just have some vague bragging rights to "win".

The people that write and create the games are professionals who in some cases have worked together in the past and may do so again in the future. As an example, Dave Mattingly is both our esteemed Digital Hero editor and a producer of fantastic material for both M&M and HERO. The fan base for one game has a high degree of crossover with the fan base for the other, and the creators have no reason to alienate prospective customers.

Hostility between the fans shows up for pretty much the same reasons it does everywhere in fandom. A mix of tribalism and the belief, deep in every fan's soul, that winning an Internet argument entitles you to take your enemy's catgirl.

[nexus]

Hostility between the fans shows up for pretty much the same reasons it does everywhere in fandom. A mix of tribalism and the belief, deep in every fan's soul, that winning and Internet argument entitles you to take your enemy's catgirl.

So, pretty much we agree its pretty silly.

[OddHat]

So, pretty much we agree its pretty silly.

Yup.

[arcady]

Hostility between the fans shows up for pretty much the same reasons it does everywhere in fandom. A mix of tribalism and the belief, deep in every fan's soul, that winning an Internet argument entitles you to take your enemy's catgirl.


So, pretty much we agree its pretty silly.

I dunno...

Being able to take your enemy's catgirl has some pretty strong merits for good motivation.

I'm going to have to throw this one into my Cyberpunk setting just for kicks... :nonp:

[Lord Liaden]

Hostility between the fans shows up for pretty much the same reasons it does everywhere in fandom. A mix of tribalism and the belief, deep in every fan's soul, that winning an Internet argument entitles you to take your enemy's catgirl.

Now that is sig-able. :D

[Kristopher]

Hostility between the fans shows up for pretty much the same reasons it does everywhere in fandom. A mix of tribalism and the belief, deep in every fan's soul, that winning an Internet argument entitles you to take your enemy's catgirl.


Purrfect. :D

[Kristopher]

Not exactly. You roll to hit [and the game has different combat maneuvers to choose from just like Hero] using your attack value [which is like OCV] against the target's defense [which is like DCV]. If you hit the person you attacked makes a damage save based on how powerful your attack is.

Grond [8 attack] swings at Defender [20 defense]. Grond rolls a d20 and adds 8. He must roll a total of 20 or higher to hit. Grond rolls a 14 +8 = 22. He hits Defender.

Grond does +30 damage with his str [15 base and +15 str modifier from his 40 str]. Defender has an 11 Toughness. Defender rolls a d20 and adds 11. Defender must roll a 30 or higher to take no damage [meaning he needs to roll a 19 or 20] because he was able to roll/twist away from it. Depending on how badly Defender rolls he can take damage, be stunned, be staggered, or be knocked out [Grond's +30 is a LOT of damage]. If Defender rolled a 10 that would give him a total of 21. He missed his roll by 9. Missing by 9 means Defender is stunned and taken some damage. Of course there are defensive combat maneuvers Defender could do such as block or dodge as well. I'm just keeping it simple in the example.

For some reason, glancing at the book in the store, I got the impression it was single roll. Not so bad, then.

What contributes to Defense? Is it a measure of evasive ability alone, or does it add in resistance to damage? Or is that only in Toughness?

[arcady]

Defense is ability to avoid being hit.

Toughness is ability to resist injury once hit.

Pretty similar things add to each as would add to the same concepts in Hero. The major difference is that Dexterity does -not- add to defense, something changed between 1E and 2E to 'address balance,' but which has the impact of GMs getting hordes of PCs handed to them that have all base 10s in stats...

(for most things stats add to -skills and saves- it is often cheaper to buy the bonus independant of the stat)

[input.jack]

I might be mis-remembering something, .... As I have said I do not know what the system looks like now, but v1 did not impress me.

For what its worth, I didnt like version 1 of M&M either. They had things I thought should be Powers listed as Feats ("Penetrating Vision" as a feat?), and Superspeed was the be-all and end-all Power to have.

EVERY SINGLE GRIPE I HAD with version 1 was fixed (and fixed WELL) in Second Edition. :D

Im now running a M&M campaign, and playing in several others, and enjoying the bejeebers out of it.

If you didnt like First Edition, I strongly recommend that you take a look at Second Edition. it is a VERY different animal, and much more to my (personal) liking.

As I said, for what thats worth ;)

(PS: Dont worry, Steve, we still play HERO system too :D)

[Sketchpad]

I was in the same boat. I hated 1E because it was too simplistic. It honestly felt like the Marvel Superheroes game to me. 2E's a whole different thing. Green Ronin really took 2 giant steps toward Hero when they made the changes. That angered a certain percentage of the fans who preferred the simple flow of 1E over the increased complexity of 2E but for me it made the perfect superhero game. :)

This is what has me curious for the future really ... with M&M taking steps towards Hero, what do people think will happen when/if the OGL goes belly up?

[Log-Man]

So, pretty much we agree its pretty silly.
Silly? Were you not listening?? You get their catgirl!!

:D

[Sketchpad]

Nothing needs to happen. Games systems aren't covered under copyright protection. Any ogl game will just be re-released with any tradedress terms removed/renamed and things will continue on from there.
And this in turn could redifine some or whole systems depending on things. Hence why I'm curious ;)

[Vondy]

I can't say for other ogl games since I don't play them but I know Green Ronin put a stragedy in place for both M&M and True20. Changing tradedress isn't a big issue though. I think the fans are more worried about 4E and changes then the larger d20 publishers [White Wolf, Mongoose, etc] are. :)

It might actually help them as it would remove the "D20 Bandwagon" stigma from an already popular system. And from what I can tell, GR products have been evolving/drifting from the D20 base, anyways. Given time it might not be D20 at all.

[Phil]

(for most things stats add to -skills and saves- it is often cheaper to buy the bonus independant of the stat)

Except CON. Which is M&M's answer to HERO's STR in terms of value for money

[Phil]

Not really. Most characteristics have at least 2 function.


It's not just about the function, its how much those individual functions cost. Most characters have Toughness and Fortitude of at least +6, often buying these up separately or using Protection or Defensive Roll. It is more efficient for many characters to have CON 22, giving you that +6 without limitation, plus a few associated benefits of CON (e.g. drowning rules) although this isn't without its downsides (e.g. CON drain).

For something like DEX or INT, the trade off is 8 skill points or a single +1 to all skills, which has some margin of balance either side. For Strength, however, it's frequently going to be cheaper to purchase the Strike power, one level of Superstrength and use Skill points.... the balancing factor, however, probably coming from the use of Strength in the Grapple maneuver.

Of course, this sort of approach often stinks of blatant munchkinism! But I find such analyses interesting.

For 2 points of characteristics, you get:
Strength: +1 damage (1 pt), +1 Grapple (1) + 2 skills (0.5) = 2.5 (plus lifting)
Dex: +1 initiative (0.25) +1 Save (1) + 8 skills (2) = 3.25
Con: +1 toughness (1) + 1 Save (1) + Misc effects = 2
Int: +6 skills (1.5) = 1.5
Wis: +1 save (1) + 5 skills (1.25) = 2.25
Cha: +7 skills (1.75) = 1.75

[Eosin]

To back up an issue.

The 3.0 to 3.5 change burned a number of the bigger companies like Green Ronin, WW, and Mongoose. They got stuck holding a rather large handful of products that no longer moved well. You know the old burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice....

The heavy hitters ofthe d20 market moved away from d20 and into OGL territory. Wizards can't pull the plug on True20 or MnM by upgrading to 4.0 and not releasing a SRD... Those are functional game systems without the SRD. They can be developed and advanced anyway the company likes without regard to what WOTC is doing with D&D. At least, this is my understanding of the strategy.

PS - 3rd party d20 publishers who focus on D&D on the other hand find that they can only release product for a system that is no longer supported.

PPS - WOTC has said that there will be no more "surprise" moments. They will give a full years notice before upgrading the system.

Just sayin'

:idjit:

[Steve Kenson]

This is what has me curious for the future really ... with M&M taking steps towards Hero, what do people think will happen when/if the OGL goes belly up?
Absolutely nothing, actually. The Open Game Licenses is perpetual and cannot "go belly up" in that it cannot be revoked: Open Content is Open Content for good.

You may be confusing the OGL with the d20 STL (System Trademark License), the one that lets you use the "d20" logo on products (which basically is intended to say "compatible with D&D" although that's not always the case). The d20 logo is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast and they can choose to revoke the d20 STL because of that.

However, since M&M doesn't use the d20 STL (and never has), only the OGL, it would be unaffected by such a change.

[Lord Mhoram]

Absolutely nothing, actually. The Open Game Licenses is perpetual and cannot "go belly up" in that it cannot be revoked: Open Content is Open Content for good.

Heya Steve. Nice to see you on this side of the fence. :)

One of the things I thought was brilliant was that there is a clause in the OGL licesnse that says you can use any version of the licesnce when publishing under it. So if WotC tried to change the OGL licence, then everyone could just use an earlier version.

Like the man said, once it is open, it stays open.

[Sketchpad]

Absolutely nothing, actually. The Open Game Licenses is perpetual and cannot "go belly up" in that it cannot be revoked: Open Content is Open Content for good.

You may be confusing the OGL with the d20 STL (System Trademark License), the one that lets you use the "d20" logo on products (which basically is intended to say "compatible with D&D" although that's not always the case). The d20 logo is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast and they can choose to revoke the d20 STL because of that.

However, since M&M doesn't use the d20 STL (and never has), only the OGL, it would be unaffected by such a change.
Good to know :) I was always kinda curious how that one worked. I thought an OGL user had to follow the newest version of the product ... guess I read it wrong ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I wonder how the law would perceive that. My understanding is that it's tough to enforce a gift because the recipient did not provide any consideration. Any legal eagles care to opine on WOTC's legal position if they cancelled or modified the OGL?

[Vondy]

I'm not a legal eagle, but the OGL is an open license you are free to use, not a gift. By making use of it you agree to abide by its terms, which includes putting the text of the agreement "this product is published under..." in your product. That's an explicit act that binds you to the terms of the license on your part. At the same time, as Steve noted, its terms self-define the OGL as perpetural for those who have already made use of it. So while HASBRO might withdraw the license for use by new OGL publishers, they've already entered into an agreement with extant OGL publishers that would be hard to wiggle out of. OGL publishers seem pretty secure in that regard.

On the other hand, they might try to argue that it applies to products already published under its auspices and not to new products that were not published by the time the OGL was withdrawn. The question there becomes: what is the motive, and where is the profit? They have cash reserves to use on legal proceedings the OGL publishers dont - which is a defacto win from a court perspective - but the publicity for such a move is very bad indeed, and there isn't any profit in alienating a niche market with a reactionary fan-base. What's more, it wouldn't take much for GR (or other OGL publishers) to make some cosmetic alterations on a new version and move forward without wasting funds on law-suits.

[TheRavenIs]

Ok, I was given the core rules for Christmas by a friend. I wonder is it worth the time to learn the system. I mean I looked at the book and I like most of what I see, but the biggest thing for me is my gaming group. I have no idea if they would want to learn a new system.

Any help with giving me some solid reasons to learn the system are welcome.

[Shiva13]

I concur with the poster above. If Hero works for you, there is no reason to change at all. But if you have been worn down by percieved drawbacks of the Hero System and want something with less overall weight, M&M 2nd edition is certainly a good choice.

I went through a lot different game systems after I just got tired of the weight the Hero System brings with it. And I'll list a few of them.

Superbabes.

Great system with a few drawbacks. But it combined given experience and a level structure that controlled character power level in a very elegant fashion. Mostly, it was a point based system. But it gave 50 points to improve abilities with when a character advanced an experience level. Experience points were not character points. So advancement was pretty slow.

Marvel SAGA.

A game I still love very deeply. Fast combat resolution, easy character modeling. Very well executed. The card based resolution was outright fun.

Marvel Universe.

I enjoyed this game. Even ran it at a convention. Have 2 copies of every book released for it. It's a game heavy on resource management. And it has one fundimental aspect to it I think actually would be of benefit players of other superghero games as a teaching aid. And that is restraint. That one doesn't have to use their powers at full force most of the time to achieve the desired results.

[The Main Man]

Is there any news about that DC game from Black Industries?
If that comes out under M&M Rules then I am probably going to be playing Marvel/DC Universe games under that, not that it's difficult to convert if I have to.

[CorPse]

Recently moved to Seattle where there are loads of interesting gaming groups. There's a guy here who runs an MnM meets VnV game that's supposed to be great... I'm looking forward to getting a look at this thing next week...

[The Main Man]

The last word from Nicole back in Nov was that there wasn't any game, yet. BI's too busy working on their new WH project.
:( That stinks.
I hope that when it does actually get released that Marvel jumps on the bandwagon in a way typical of Overpower, Vs. System, and Heroclix.

[CorPse]

I assume you mean Karl's game. His character thread is here: www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=13117 . Karl seems like a very knowledgeable gamer but he and his group seem to dislike 2nd edition. He, Kevin, and the Seattle posse have been involved in numerous heated discussions about 2e since it came out on the M&M forum. I think he's got the hang of it now though.

That certainly sounds right, although I was under the impression that it was Kev's game, but I'm fresh off the boat in Seattle, and it seems like you know more about it than I do!

This is certainly an interesting town for RPGs. Seems like you can find anyone playing anything at almost any time. It's also interesting that Kev & Co's group, the Seattle Gamers Alliance, is so into trying just about anything that hits the market.

[death tribble]

Agents of Freedom now available and Penumbra, AEGIS and UNISON are detailed. Very nice.

Agent archetypes are shown plus equipment for the agents.

[GestaltBennie]

I've only read the STAR Squad section so far but it's very good. Great work Scott!

Thanks! I won't be able to read the book until tomorrow (my eye's still rescovering from being punctured in one of the surgeries) but i'm glad you folks like it. I hope a number of Hero fans pick it, as I wroee some sections with crossover appeal in mind (just as I do when I write for Hero).

[steamteck]

i would if i felt i was possibly being singlerd out for questioning. If i had seen you ignore others drinking pepsi and saw you come to me and specifically ask about my drinking, i would be curious as to whether it was just me or if it was some more broad hobby of yours.


Its a reasonable question why you post so much on a forum devoted to a game you just try to tear down post after post. It isjust you because no one else is exibiting such unusual behavior. Frankly you've gone a long way towards killing any desire to check out M&M by unfairly beating up on my favorite system for page after page after page. Monolith's critiques's that you so loath actually made me want to check it out more.

[tesuji]

wow blast from the past.
thread necromancy anyone?

[/QUOTE]



Its a reasonable question why you post so much on a forum devoted to a game you just try to tear down post after post.

Suggestion... use Search function...tesuji...see many posts which are not "just try to tear down".
Get Correct facts first... always good advice.



It isjust you because no one else is exibiting such unusual behavior.

wow, and here i thought there was nothing new on the internet.


Frankly you've gone a long way towards killing any desire to check out M&M by unfairly beating up on my favorite system for page after page after page.

then i suggest you don't try MNM... especially the second edition... which went way too HERO for my tastes.



Monolith's critiques's that you so loath actually made me want to check it out more.

or, why not stick with HERO, it may be the best fit for you.