Mutants and Masterminds vs. HERO

[Jeff T.]

After careful and lengthy deliberation, I will probably stick with HERO. Man, it is close though. I am very impressed with M&M, particularly the art and production of the material. I will definitely be trying to incorporate alot of M&M characters and material into HERO.

M&M has fewer problems than any other superhero RPG except HERO. The main beef with M&M is skill cost is too high, but this can be fixed. If DOJ and FRED hadn't arrived on the scene about a year ago, I would definitely be converted to M&M.

It is wishful thinking, of course, but it would be AWESOME if DOJ could come up to level of production that comes with M&M. A full color book is almost essential for the superhero genre.

That being said, you can't beat HERO's flexibility, detail and power. It is still the best system out there!

I'd be interested in anyone else's thought on M&M vs. HERO as well.

[Monolith]

I love the Freedom City material I have seen. I am already using a modified version of Factor 4 in my Champions game as a group of villains. I have a feeling that everything in FC will be very useful to me because both FC and CU are very comic book based.

As far as the M&M system itself, it is innovative but it reminds me of a fusion of D&D and Marvel. On some levels it just seems too simple to me; but that is just me. I'm a die-hard Hero fan. :)

As far as color art and such, I will freely admit that both M&M and SAS are beautiful books, but when I hold M&M in my hands it reminds me of a child's picture book. It is thin and insubstantial. The hardcover detracts from the book. In my opinion no book with less than 300 pages should be hardbound. That does not mean that the book isn't full of useful material, because it is, but I think the book is too thin for that price. It is $10.50 more than Champions Universe but only has 40 more pages.

Now I would love to see DOJ produce a 300 page full-color book, but I also understand that they would not be able to do it for less than $60.00, and since people complain about the price of books now I do not think it would go over well.

[Storn]

Mono, I think the page count of MM is misleading. It has a smaller font than Hero/FRED. You really do get your money's worth, in my opinion.

Folks, I'm going to jump on the MM bandwagon. I've run it once, played twice. I like it. A lot. I'm going to be running MM because it plays to my strengths as a GM (quick, interpertive combat) and away from my weaknesses (doing a lot of math in my head). I also like the damage resolution. I like that you take hits and it reduces your chance of standing up to the next hit. The bookkeeping on dmg resolution is so simple, just 1S or 1L for on hit of stun or lethal. And while I don't mind and very much like the damage and all its computations (Body loss, Stun loss, End loss, Con stun) in champions, as a GM I get very easily overwhelmed and flustered.

However, I concede that MM has some balance issues. I think you can build an uber fighting machine even more so than the Hero's famed brick. But I play with a group that is very, very good. If someone comes up with a concept that is too powerful, we change it. that simple.

BUT!!!! but,but...my MM game is opposite weeks from a Champions game. Both games are set in the same universe. The main GM is wondeful at doing STun, ENd in his head, unlike me, and combat moves at a very good clip. So. I don't even have to choose. I choose both systems. In fact, I came up with a new PC character that works better in Champions creation than it does in MM creation.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Storn
Mono, I think the page count of MM is misleading. It has a smaller font than Hero/FRED. You really do get your money's worth, in my opinion.
I agree that it is packed full of material. I was just commenting on the general "feel" of the book when I first picked it up. It was thin and lite. It reminded me of one of the early-reader books I buy for my children: A big heavy cover and thin pages. It just did not seem substantial for the price. I bought it anyway though. I needed the information in the book to convert the Factor 4 characters. :)

I think people should play whatever game they enjoy to play, but I would be very disappointed to see the same type of book come from Hero Games. Not because I do not color, be cause I do - I was one of the first people on the old boards to ask about a color book, but I think the book needs to be more substantial than 200 pages and should not cost more than a 328 page Star Hero. :)

[Storn]

I, too, was hoping for color.

But it is not practical for the size of a book that FRED is. Unless $75.00 was charged (or more). Which makes it a frightening prospect to then barely out of the grave DOJ. Just wasn't practical. I totaly understand the decision they made.

And here we are, several books down the road. Product is coming out, product is moving fairly well from what I can tell. MM has an marketing advantage over Champions because of the d20 tie-in. Champions has an marketing advantage over MM because of the name "Champions"... both have sold well. So go figure.

I think it supports the theory that I first heard from steve peterson. Every time there is a new superhero product, hero sales of Champions products goes up.

[misterdeath]

Well, Mutants and Masterminds impresses me a lot more than Silver Age Sentinels does, quite frankly. I like the changes that M&M makes to the d20/OGL. Makes things much more playable. It's a quick and dirty system that actually seems to work.

If I didn't already have Hero, I'd be tempted to take M&M and make it a "generic system" and use it for nearly everything. It's that flexible a system.

But, I have Hero, and, honestly, the time I have to revamp a game from scratch is pretty limited. So...

My first thought upon seeing the M&M book, "Damn this is small. Good thing they've got all those color pages and left out the rest of the book."

That was very unfair. It's pretty complete, IMO.

Not as flexible as Hero. Probably not as flexible as Fuzion. But complete. And workable.

D

[buzz]

I'm still making my way through M&M, and I'm actually surprised how unimpressed I am. I was chomping at the bit before it was released. Not that I don't think it's pretty amazing, particularly for what it accomplishes within the d20 framework, but I still feel more comfortable with HERO.

I lurk on the Green Ronin boards, and it's interesting, now that the M&M "hype" is dying down a bit, to see the issues that people are starting to find with the system. Point costs in general seem to be a hotly-debated topic, as well as the nature of noncombat vs. combat movement (E.g., even high ranks in Flight or Speed translate to only 20mph or so in combat, yet outside of combat, using Super-Flight/Speed, characters can move at ridiculous speeds), for starters.

This is all obviously due to the fact that M&M is still a 1st edition, so players are going to find the chinks in its armor. The same thing happened with SAS. Like M&M, it was the "HERO-killer" at first, but now people have actually played the darn thing and are finding that there are areas that need work, e.g., balancing characters. SAS seems to need even stricter GM supervision during chargen than HERO.

I've also found both SAS and M&M to be a lot more complicated than they let on. In their efforts to not be like HERO, I find that alternatives are introduced that aren't necessarily any easier. I mean, I'm still not sure when an Extra in M&M is a +1 cost or a +(Other Power - 1) cost addition. :)

I guess it boils down to the fact that HERO, having been hammered on by players and designers for 22 years, has "matured." It's robust and fine-tuned. Add to this that it is still an order of magnitude more flexible than either of the above, I'm more than willing to deal with the crunchiness and slow combat. (Though combats in my group seem to always go pretty fast; my D&D3e groups take way longer to resolve combat.)

I'm still making my way through the M&M book, though, and will be playing in a campaign in a few weeks. We'll see how it goes. Even in a best-case scenario, I see myself playing both.

And I woulnd't mind giving SAS a try, either. :)

[Jeff T.]

I agree the book 'feels' smaller than it really is, I might not have bought it had I not heard such good things about it beforehand.

[mattingly]

"Small" isn't really a fair term for the book; I'd go more for "lean." The fact that you can fit an entire character sheet on half a page (including backstory and picture) is pretty cool.

I've played both M+M and SAS, and prefer M+M to SAS, but prefer HERO to either. I've only played M+M five or six times, and at first, combats took at least as long as HERO, since we had to keep flipping back to the book for rules, but once our group got into the swing of things, combats were moderately faster than HERO (20% faster, tops).

Many of the benefits that M+M offers over HERO, we'd already adopted as house rules for our Champions campaign (Hero Points, mainly), but although they looked cool at first, when we tried porting them over to Champions (at 5 Hero Points per character), I realized that M+M needs Hero Points to work, and HERO doesn't. Besides, I'm not at all convinced that M+M would work for any other genre. Sure, it's d20, but it's not standard d20, so it'd be hard to mix in supers, horror, fantasy, sci-fi, and superagents all into the same game. No problem for HERO.

[Yamo]

This isn't much of a contest if you've never roleplayed superheroes and never want to.

I prefer HERO because it's universal and adapts to any setting.

I've never wanted to play a superhero, however. The whole comic book genre has always seemed silly to me. I mean, you have a grown man prancing around in tights calling himself Captain Power, or somesuch. Come on! I'll stick with my nice, down-to-Earth elves and dragons, thank you. ;)

Okay, so I'm kidding a little there, but my point remains. M&M doesn't stand out as competition to HERO unless you're interested in the specific genre it covers.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Yamo
This isn't much of a contest if you've never roleplayed superheroes and never want to.

I prefer HERO because it's universal and adapts to any setting.

I've never wanted to play a superhero, however. The whole comic book genre has always seemed silly to me. I mean, you have a grown man prancing around in tights calling himself Captain Power, or somesuch. Come on! I'll stick with my nice, down-to-Earth elves and dragons, thank you. ;)

Okay, so I'm kidding a little there, but my point remains. M&M doesn't stand out as competition to HERO unless you're interested in the specific genre it covers.

Yamo, I couldn't disagree more. One of the brilliant things, IMO, is that M&M is crafted to take advantage of the PREMIERE fantasy game. d20. Listen, I don't care for d20. In fact, hated it after running it a couple of times.

But MM? Now, I can take that combat & feats & powers rule set and use every single fantasy critter, spell, monster manual with just a tiny bit of thought and tweaking. And make d20 SO much better, easier than it is in its WoTC incarnation. Yet I have a HUGE library to utilize.

Now granted, MM fantasy would probably be pretty high powered, high fantasy-like game. For low fantasy, Fantasy hero rocks. No doubt about it. But to dismiss MM as "no competition"... hmmm... I really don't think so. I could be completely wrong.... but I've seen the threads on MM fantasy... its a movement. It has a built in market.

[Jerry A!]

I have to agree with Storn on this one. Plan within the next two years people will be refering to D20 "proper" and D20 "Green Ronin".

The changes are that good.

Though, Storn, I will disagree with you on the low fantasy. I believe that it can easily be done, just cap out at a PL5-7.

And none of that 3:1 skill/power point nonsense!

[Yamo]

I have to agree with Storn on this one. Plan within the next two years people will be refering to D20 "proper" and D20 "Green Ronin".

Somehow I simply doubt this. WotC/Hasbro is a juggernaut. GR is a neat little company, but the emphasis here has to be on the "little." In the hardcore, online RPG.net-type crowd, where Little Fears and The Window are household names, GR's M&M d20 system will be highly regarded, yes, but they don't have the funds or the public profile to push their product up alongside d20 in the minds of the "real world" silent majority of gamers who just want to play "that D&D stuff ." It's a good system, yes, but Joe and Jane Gamer are never going to be mentioning it in the same breath as "real"' d20. It's way too far under the radar.

And Storn's point is well-taken, but frankly, some people are never going to come on board with feats, saving throws, a non-bell curving single d20 roll resolution mechanic, or anything else distinctively d20, no matter how heavily-modified. I know, as I'm one of them. M&M is good, but it's just not as flexible as HERO and the mechanics just don't hold up for me.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Yamo
Somehow I simply doubt this. WotC/Hasbro is a juggernaut. GR is a neat little company, but the emphasis here has to be on the "little." In the hardcore, online RPG.net-type crowd, where Little Fears and The Window are household names, GR's M&M d20 system will be highly regarded, yes, but they don't have the funds or the public profile to push their product up alongside d20 in the minds of the "real world" silent majority of gamers who just want to play "that D&D stuff ." It's a good system, yes, but Joe and Jane Gamer are never going to be mentioning it in the same breath as "real"' d20. It's way too far under the radar.

I don't know. As far as d20 companies go, GR is probably one of the, if not THE, most highly-regarded. M&M has been an explosive product for them. It's sold out everywhere. The initial hype over SAS pales in comparison.

Take a look at their forums sometime. The M&M forum outpaces the other GR product forums in traffic by several orders of magnitude. I woulnd't be surprised if that forum alone doesn't compare favorably to the traffic we get here on the HERO boards. Add to this that GR is able to get their product into stores like Waldenbooks, and that M&M is essentially a d20 ("Just like D&D, kids!") supers game... well, comparing it to the indie games RPG.net covets is kind of off. M&M is very much "on the radar" of D&D/d20 gamers. At ENworld, fwiw, there's little talk of SAS d20 or other d20 supers games; M&M is steadily becoming the d20 supers game of choice.

Now, GR isn't going to be outgrowing WotC anytime, but I think you're short-selling the popularity of this game. I don't know if it's ever going to become "the other d20", but I have a good feeling it may very well become "the supers game you play if you don't play Champions."

[Monolith]

Originally posted by buzz
Take a look at their forums sometime. The M&M forum outpaces the other GR product forums in traffic by several orders of magnitude. I woulnd't be surprised if that forum alone doesn't compare favorably to the traffic we get here on the HERO boards.
Green Ronin Forum: 16,100 posts since it inception.
Nato's Hero Forum: 6,400 posts in one month.

I don't think they are that close to us. :)

[Storn]

Originally posted by Yamo
Somehow I simply doubt this. WotC/Hasbro is a juggernaut. GR is a neat little company, but the emphasis here has to be on the "little." In the hardcore, online RPG.net-type crowd, where Little Fears and The Window are household names, GR's M&M d20 system will be highly regarded, yes, but they don't have the funds or the public profile to push their product up alongside d20 in the minds of the "real world" silent majority of gamers who just want to play "that D&D stuff ." It's a good system, yes, but Joe and Jane Gamer are never going to be mentioning it in the same breath as "real"' d20. It's way too far under the radar.



However, Yamo, neither does Hero/DOJ. And we are doing a comparison, yes? Green Ronin is a bit more than a neat little company. Its doing well and its fantasy stuff is some of the nicest I've seen out of the whole d20 glut. It is not way under the radar.
And Joe and Jane Gamer aren't exactly flocking to Hero compared to d20.

Granted, it ain't WoTC (who is?). But it can tie in neatly with WoTC's product line, something that Hero cannot boast. So, MM can do fantasy just fine... maybe not a hero gamer's fantasy... but it can do it WELL. It can do fantasy simpler and better, in my opinion, better than WoTC's d20. And, btw, it can do superheroes. Folks, I think this game is a serious contender and not to be taken lightly. Of course, MM sales will do nothing but help Champions sales. So it is really a win-win.

Mono, post counts of boards is no way to measure a company's success. Just throw that idea right out, right now.

[Yamo]

However, Yamo, neither does Hero/DOJ. And we are doing a comparison, yes?

Oh no, you misunderstand. I was strictly addressing the question of whether the M&M system would ever be well-known enough to be considered the "alternate d20" by the gaming community at large, as Jerry speculated.

Honestly, I like HERO right where it is. It's selling well without threatening to become a lumbering and soulless corporate property like D&D is to Hasbro. Of course, I'm assuming Steve, Darren, and company wouldn't particularly mind the profits that would come with that status. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Storn
Mono, post counts of boards is no way to measure a company's success. Just throw that idea right out, right now.
I never said they were, but it is a good indicator of the interest of the fanbase. Also keep in mind that I am only discussing the M&M sections, not their whole company. But saying that, even assuming 50% of the posts on the Hero Boards are fluff, we still have a larger following on these boards than GR does on theirs for M&M; and considering that D&D/d20/OGL is about 1,000 times more popular than Hero I think that is saying a lot.

I'm not trying to insult or condemn your favorite game Storn. If you like that game play it and enjoy it. Green Ronin is a good company, but I have now seen three superhero games come into the market (Godlike, SAS, & M&M) and two of them have already fallen to a murmer. Time can only tell where M&M is going to fit into the pie, but I am already seeing interest for M&M starting to die down on the various forums I frequent. Just like with Godlike and SAS we have had the boom, but now we must see if M&M can survive the vacuum which always follows. I hope it does, because I have really liked what I have heard about upcoming products and I plan on buying some of them.

[Jeff T.]

I hope M&M continues strong, if for no other reason than to give me other resources for my HERO game. :D Monolith will probably agree with me on that one.

I must point out that Green Ronin needs to raise their level of fan support alot. They have been very vague about errata questions, the Freedom City release date, and a 2003 product schedule. Just the opposite of HERO.

They also have nowhere near the response time and activity level as compared to Steve, Darren, and Ben. I have asked numerous questions on their boards and sent 2 emails without response. HERO's Big 3 have been RIGHT THERE to answer questions and offer assistance since the very beginning over a year ago. I'm positive Super Unicorn and Steve Kenson certainly aren't any busier than Mr. Long, yet we get next to nothing from M&M.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
I hope M&M continues strong, if for no other reason than to give me other resources for my HERO game. :D Monolith will probably agree with me on that one.
I agree completely. I want M&M to keep producing material. I buy just about every game in the market with a "superhero" tag on it; and as I said above, both Freedom City and the Time Travel adventure sound very interesting to me. I am looking forward to buying them.

Steve Kenson is one of my favorite authors. I really liked his work for HERO/GRG, GOO, and GR. Too bad he isn't available to write something for Hero. I would be a very happy camper then. :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Monolith
I agree completely. I want M&M to keep producing material. I buy just about every game in the market with a "superhero" tag on it; and as I said above, both Freedom City and the Time Travel adventure sound very interesting to me. I am looking forward to buying them.


One of the tidbits I caught over there was that there will be two official "universes" produced for M&M. The Freedom City Universe is, of course, written by Steve Kenson with art by Super Unicorn. It will apparently have a Silver Age feel.

The other, as yet unnamed, universe will be completely produced by Super Unicorn and Erik Mona. The characters shown in the M&M book such as Protonik, Inferna, Minotaur, the Meta-4 agents, etc...will all be based in this universe and will not be part of the Freedom City Universe. The impression I got was that this universe will have a 90's/Image/Wildstorm feel to it. Supposedly, it is due out later this year.

I will find out more when they release their 2003 product schedule which is supposed to be in the near future.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Monolith
Green Ronin Forum: 16,100 posts since it inception.
Nato's Hero Forum: 6,400 posts in one month.

I don't think they are that close to us. :)

YES! I ROCK!!! ;)

Wow, that's a lot of traffic. I knew we probablly got more traffice than other supers game, but didn't know by how much. Pretty cool.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Starlord
I must point out that Green Ronin needs to raise their level of fan support alot. They have been very vague about errata questions, the Freedom City release date, and a 2003 product schedule. Just the opposite of HERO.

They also have nowhere near the response time and activity level as compared to Steve, Darren, and Ben. I have asked numerous questions on their boards and sent 2 emails without response. HERO's Big 3 have been RIGHT THERE to answer questions and offer assistance since the very beginning over a year ago. I'm positive Super Unicorn and Steve Kenson certainly aren't any busier than Mr. Long, yet we get next to nothing from M&M.

This is unfair. You must be posting to a GR forum in some alternatie universe. Steve Kenson and other GR staff are quite vocal on the GR boards. They have also been very up-front about release dates. Freedom City is at the printers; they've announced this on the boards.

I dunno. I can't speak to your experience with GR, but I think they've been doing quite well. M&M isn't their only line, and they've only recently become a full-time company. They also don't have 20 years of previous publications to draw from; comparing them to HERO's recent output is unfair.

The game has only been out a short while, and it seems apparent that M&M's incredible success has caught them a bit off guard.

I'm not trying to make some X is better than Y comparison; I like both companies a lot. Give credit where credit is due.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Monolith
Green Ronin Forum: 16,100 posts since it inception.
Nato's Hero Forum: 6,400 posts in one month.

I don't think they are that close to us. :)

(Ignoring Storn's warning about the futility of counting posts for a moment...)

M&M has been out since, what, December? For a brand new RPG, that's pretty impressive.

WHy should being pro-HERO mean being anti-everything else? :confused:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by buzz
This is unfair. You must be posting to a GR forum in some alternatie universe. Steve Kenson and other GR staff are quite vocal on the GR boards. They have also been very up-front about release dates. Freedom City is at the printers; they've announced this on the boards.

I dunno. I can't speak to your experience with GR, but I think they've been doing quite well. M&M isn't their only line, and they've only recently become a full-time company. They also don't have 20 years of previous publications to draw from; comparing them to HERO's recent output is unfair.

The game has only been out a short while, and it seems apparent that M&M's incredible success has caught them a bit off guard.

I'm not trying to make some X is better than Y comparison; I like both companies a lot. Give credit where credit is due.

Well it is fair, in that I'm giving my honest opinion of my experience's on their boards over the last month. I can respect that you've had a different experience. They are nowhere near as accessible as Steve Long, but maybe I'm spoiled in that regard.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by buzz
(Ignoring Storn's warning about the futility of counting posts for a moment...)
It's good that you ignore that. :)


M&M has been out since, what, December? For a brand new RPG, that's pretty impressive.
The Forum has been up since July though. That is 16,000 in 7 months, not 2. :)


WHy should being pro-HERO mean being anti-everything else? :confused:
You don't have to be anti-anything, except D&D (just kidding to get your goat!). I did not say I hated the game. I have no feelings about the game one way or the other; except to the effect that I feel the book is too small to be a hardcover. If you read my posts you will see that I have said more than once that I am looking forward to buying their source books and modules. But I also understand, just as with SAS, there is an initial flood of posting and enthusiasm which generally dies out just as quickly when the next “hot thing” comes around. Time is the true factor as to how well a game holds up. Maybe M&M will still be around in 5 years, or maybe the d20 craze will die down and Chris will be working for White Wolf. Who knows?

As I said to Storn, if you like the game play it and enjoy it. But also keep in mind that people are coming to the Hero Boards and waiving the M&M flag. That's like walking into the lion's den. Trying making half-a-dozen posts on the M&M boards about how great Hero is and see what kind of response you get. I bet it will be just as harsh if not harsher than the ones in this thread. I bet you hear all about how you need calculus to play the game, and how combat is slow, and character creation is impossible, etc, etc, etc.

Saying you like the game is one thing, but when people try to preach the virtues of another game in our holy cathedral we get a little defensive. :)

[Storn]

No one has given me any flack for being a Hero supporter on the Green Ronin boards. Not one comment.

I'm like Buzz. I like both games. I glad I have both of them, including SAS.

I'll probably even take a look at Eden's upcoming superhero game, since I like Withcraft and AFMBE games. I think the Unisystem is really pretty keen. Not sure how it is going to translate into supers though. But MM has made me think, if a d20 game can come out that I like, I'll just wait and see how Unisystems supers are. I won't presume nuthin'.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Monolith
The Forum has been up since July though. That is 16,000 in 7 months, not 2. :)

Herein lay the danger of basing arguments on these numbers. The real data we need to compare is posts per month. Yeah, the M&M forum ahs been there for a while, but prior to the imminent release of the game, it was like the GR Dragonfist forum; i.e., people posting "Is it out yet?" a couple of times a week. I would bet the majority of the posts were made the few months since it's been released. For a game with none of the history or built-in fanbase of Champions, that's fairly impressive.

I agree with you, time will tell. The prospects look good, though.


Originally posted by Monolith
As I said to Storn, if you like the game play it and enjoy it. But also keep in mind that people are coming to the Hero Boards and waiving the M&M flag. That's like walking into the lion's den. Trying making half-a-dozen posts on the M&M boards about how great Hero is and see what kind of response you get. I bet it will be just as harsh if not harsher than the ones in this thread. I bet you hear all about how you need calculus to play the game, and how combat is slow, and character creation is impossible, etc, etc, etc.

I don't really understand this attitude. Like Storn, I haven't seen a whole lot of HERO-bashing on the M&M boards, or the SAS boards for that matter. At least, no more than is guaranteed by the average signal-to-noise ratio you find on RPG boards. Frankly, I don't think that bashing of any RPG should be acceptable simply because someone posts about game X on game Y's boards. Bashing is infantile.

Discussion, however, is welcome.

[Nato]

I like both games as well. M&M's book was a little on the slim side for my liking. They could have included a slightly more in-depth look at some of the topics. And don't get me started on the hard to read character sheets that everyone seems to love. You have to reverse engineer everything to find out if the points are all balanced and accounted for. Other than that I think it has top-notch production value and some interesting solutions to common RPG activities.

As far as Hero bashing on the M&M boards go, I really haven't seen any of that. When I first starting posting there I was quite clear that I was a Hero player. I think many of the players there are too actually. I asked about conversions back and forth, etc... and had not a single reply with attitude or contempt for Hero at all.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by buzz
Frankly, I don't think that bashing of any RPG should be acceptable simply because someone posts about game X on game Y's boards. Bashing is infantile.
I agree, which is why I did not "bash" the game. I just think the book is too thin for a hardcover. :)

As far as discussion goes though, try to keep in mind that there are many people here who only play one or two game systems. For myself I only every play HERO System or GURPS Traveller (just about the two most maligned systems on the market). I am not one of those gamers who runs out and buys every new game on the market just to play it. So every time someone comes on the boards and starts telling everyone how much better a competing game is we get defensive.

This defensiveness probably stems from the fact that we do not want to see Hero's market-share shrink. We have all lived through the dark days of the last 5-6 years and really do not want to see them come again. So we defend our systems of choice to keep the darkness at bay; at least in our own minds.

The HERO System cannot compete with the d20 juggernaut. All that DOJ can do is try to maintain its current fanbase, and hopefully slowing increase that base to the point where it becomes truly stable for the company. As I said above, d20's market-share is 1,000x greater than Hero's is. 10,000+ gamers (out of the d20 millions around the world) will pick up M&M just because it is a d20/OGL book; even if they have no real intention of ever playing it. The HERO System does not have the luxury. Hero Games thinks in terms of thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands.

If you love something you want to defend it, right or wrong. The same thing could be said about someone who takes exception to an article which he perceives as bashing D&D, and then insults the integrity of the company which published the article, as well the person who wrote it. There are a lot of types of "bashing" and we all get defensive about things we are passionate about. :)

[buzz]

Originally posted by Monolith
I am not one of those gamers who runs out and buys every new game on the market just to play it.

I'd think that most people buy games to play them. ;) I, of course, buy them so I can add to the impressiveness of my gaming shelf...


Originally posted by Monolith
So every time someone comes on the boards and starts telling everyone how much better a competing game is we get defensive.

This defensiveness probably stems from the fact that we do not want to see Hero's market-share shrink. We have all lived through the dark days of the last 5-6 years and really do not want to see them come again. So we defend our systems of choice to keep the darkness at bay; at least in our own minds.

First off, I dunno about all this "we" stuff. I am a member of the HERO community, and I don't want anyone speaking for me.

Anyway, if you're getting defensive becasue you fear the "dark days," you should remind yourself of something else Storn said: "Every time there is a new superhero product, sales of Champions products goes up." Being defensive doesn't necessarily help HERO. Reacting reasonably to people hyping their new fave game with something like, "That sounds cool; tell me more so I can steal ideas for my Champions game," would probably be a better option.

Buzz, who can't understand why gamers are so adversarial.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by buzz
Anyway, if you're getting defensive becasue you fear the "dark days," you should remind yourself of something else Storn said: "Every time there is a new superhero product, sales of Champions products goes up."
As much as I like Storn and consider him to be a very good artist, I do not consider him to the spokesperson for either the industry or Hero Games. I spent some time of the M&M boards today, and I saw the names of quiet a few gamers who used to post to the Hero Boards, who now don't, but post there. So in the long run losing fans is not a good thing.

In a Monday night chat I once said to Darren something to the effect of: At least you have the faithful 10,000. His response was: Ah, no! I said 5,000? He said maybe. That tells me alot about the extent of the Hero fans in conjunction with other game systems.


Being defensive doesn't necessarily help HERO. Reacting reasonably to people hyping their new fave game with something like, "That sounds cool; tell me more so I can steal ideas for my Champions game," would probably be a better option.
I don't disagree one bit, which is why I don't bash games, and as I said above, plan on buying other game system's products.

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith
As much as I like Storn and consider him to be a very good artist, I do not consider him to the spokesperson for either the industry or Hero Games. I spent some time of the M&M boards today, and I saw the names of quiet a few gamers who used to post to the Hero Boards, who now don't, but post there. So in the long run losing fans is not a good thing.

I'm not trying to push your buttons. But maybe we (and especially DOJ) should be asking why are players migrating? Could it be frictional (jumping on the bandwagon only while it's new and fresh)? Or is there something more to it? And if there is more, then why?


In a Monday night chat I once said to Darren something to the effect of: At least you have the faithful 10,000. His response was: Ah, no! I said 5,000? He said maybe. That tells me alot about the extent of the Hero fans in conjunction with other game systems.

If people are jumping ship, then that means that MnM is providing something Hero isn't. As a "community" and as a company, the focus should be meeting players' needs if possible.

And I'm not saying that DOJ isn't meeting our needs. Good gravy, we're getting roughly one book a month out of them. And Steve and Darren are quite responsive. And I think that it's absosmurfly cool that they asked for input on the new sourcebooks. And sticking to a publishing schedule? Good lord a first in Hero History(tm).

But I am saying that there is obviously an uncaptured part of the market. If you want to see that 5000 number grow, that's where it'll have to come from.

And maybe the best way to do that is to measure Hero against the competiton and be honest about the results, warts and all.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Monolith
As much as I like Storn and consider him to be a very good artist, I do not consider him to the spokesperson for either the industry or Hero Games. I spent some time of the M&M boards today, and I saw the names of quiet a few gamers who used to post to the Hero Boards, who now don't, but post there. So in the long run losing fans is not a good thing.


Have I ever suggested I was a spokesperson? Mono, that is really a ridiculous statement.

I have been posting my opinion and some of my experiences, both as a gamer in this hobby and a business person who deals with a lot of companies, not just Hero.

And I'm taking the middle ground. I'm not frothing in my defense of MM or Hero.

And I think Jerry A has a really good point.

Lastly, just because there as been the trend of "new superhero game, Champions sales goes up" doesn't mean that the trend will continue. But, it is probably the way to bet.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
I'm not trying to push your buttons. But maybe we (and especially DOJ) should be asking why are players migrating? Could it be frictional (jumping on the bandwagon only while it's new and fresh)? Or is there something more to it? And if there is more, then why?
I think that is a fairly simple thing to answer. Storn himself has answered it more than once. Both M&M and SAS are simpler games to get into. You can make a character in both of those systems in 15-20 minutes; and you do not need to multiple or divide fractions. Finally, the combat resolution systems are quicker in those two games. So if you are a fan of any of those four things, that already is good reason to switch.

There are no real solutions for that in the HERO System. Character creation cannot really be made too much quicker, though DOJ is attempting to help this with the UNTIL database book. You cannot take the fractional math out of the game without doing a major alteration of the game. Finally, the only way to speed up combat is to remove the Speed Chart and use fixed damage totals instead of having to roll 12d6 every time (rolling and adding the dice in a superhero game are big consumers of combat time).

So in order for DOJ to "compete" they would need to rewrite major aspects of the entire game. What you will end up with is not the HERO System (it will probably be a rewrite of Fuzion or Action). Past experience has show that the 5,000 faithful do NOT want Fuzion. They want the HERO System.

DOJ is doing everything it can to please us, shot of putting out a whole new game in the style of SAS or M&M. But ultimately it comes down to the fact that you either like the HERO System for a particular style of play or you don't. The ones who like it will stay with it. The ones that do not will move on to systems that are more to their likings. But ultimately you cannot ask for the HERO System to become something else, just because that something else might or might not be more popular in the short run.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Storn
Have I ever suggested I was a spokesperson? Mono, that is really a ridiculous statement.
I was responding to the fact that buzz was attempting to use your statement as a statement of validity. Nothing more.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
If people are jumping ship, then that means that MnM is providing something Hero isn't. As a "community" and as a company, the focus should be meeting players' needs if possible.

Out of curiosity, do gamers really "jump ship"? I mean, I know that some people have a bizarre need to post "Why I'm dumping Game A for my New Love" rants on messageboards, but is this really an indicator of gamers as a whole? It's not like buying games is binary; you can buy and play M&M *and* HERO if you want. That's my plan, at least. :)

I don't look for games to "replace" other games. At least, I haven't really had that attitude since I was a teen. If a game is good and covers a genre I like, I'll take a look at it. And good games don't lose their utility in the presence of other good games.

Anyway, even if M&M continues to be a runaway success, I have a hard time believing HERO will suffer for it. We're in the middle (well, the early half really) of a HERO renaissance right now. I think it's going ot be a long time until we're at the top of the hill looking down the other side.

And who knows? Even if SAS or M&M draw some people away from HERO, who knows how many others will come to the genre becuase of them, yet find them lacking?

"M&M is pretty cool, but I wish that it did [blah]."

"Look, up in the sky! It's HEROMAN!"

:cool:

[buzz]

Originally posted by Starlord
Well it is fair, in that I'm giving my honest opinion of my experience's on their boards over the last month. I can respect that you've had a different experience. They are nowhere near as accessible as Steve Long, but maybe I'm spoiled in that regard.

FWIW, I posted a question about Extra today and got a response from Steve in about 45 minutes. That's pretty darn good.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Monolith
I spent some time of the M&M boards today, and I saw the names of quiet a few gamers who used to post to the Hero Boards, who now don't, but post there. So in the long run losing fans is not a good thing.


Well, just because some people are posting more on the M&M boards lately and not much on the Hero boards doesn't neccessarily they're no longer Hero fans. It most likely means there have been no topics on the Hero boards that have cguht their interests or they don't have any questions about the game. It probablly means they got this new game and are needing some help understanding it.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nato
Well, just because some people are posting more on the M&M boards lately and not much on the Hero boards doesn't neccessarily they're no longer Hero fans. It most likely means there have been no topics on the Hero boards that have cguht their interests or they don't have any questions about the game. It probablly means they got this new game and are needing some help understanding it.
When was the last time you saw a post from Willpower? He was a frequent member of the non-gaming forum, as well as the regular gaming forums. He posts there nearly daily.

Personally I feel that a lot of the converts to the new system will be back. As I said above, it's just part of the current fad to jump on the hot bandwagon. As with SAS, in a couple of more months some of the converts will find their way home. :)

[Nato]

Originally posted by Monolith
When was the last time you saw a post from Willpower?

When was the last time I kept track of willpower?

And besides, as much as I love Hero, when did it become a religion. Just because these guys like to play M&M, does that really mean they won't playe Hero or buy Hero products? I highly doubt it. A good game is a good game. I would get tired of Monopoly if I played that every week. I'd maybe like to switch to Life every once in a while. But I still love Monopoly and would always be up for a good game of it. And if Monopoly put out a cool new Star Wars edition I'd probably go by that too.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nato
And besides, as much as I love Hero, when did it become a religion. Just because these guys like to play M&M, does that really mean they won't playe Hero or buy Hero products? I highly doubt it. A good game is a good game. I would get tired of Monopoly if I played that every week. I'd maybe like to switch to Life every once in a while. But I still love Monopoly and would always be up for a good game of it. And if Monopoly put out a cool new Star Wars edition I'd probably go by that too.
I think that was already covered by me a couple of pages back. :)

[allen]

You know I've only read M&M, thought it was neat, and did an excellent job of working within the framework of d20 to provide a rules set for supes gaming... but what I'd really like to see is someone discuss the game after 5 or 6 months of play.

Not that I'm questioning anyone's ability to perceive the quality of a game or anything, but my experience (and I stress 'my') has always been a new campaign, and esp. a new campaign with a new system, has a 'honeymoon' period. Everyone's excited about the potential, rather than disappointed with the actual. Everyone's exploring what their character can do, rather than dwelling on what their character can't do. The GM and players are kind of making their way through the rules, making up things as they go along, and only later discover the actual interpretation of those rules, which sometimes doesn't jive well with all involved.

So, anyway, I'd really appreciate it if one of the folk who are running/planning to run M&M would post a follow-up down the road.

Anyway... I just think, for me, that would be more informative than the current discussion of initial impressions/experiences about M&M v. the hard, cold reality of HERO system experiences. To say it another way: when discussing HERO I can draw upon 12 or more years of experiences to support my opinion of its strengths and flaws. When discussing M&M I only have however many hours it took me to read the book and think about the system (and I have to admit much of that time was probably spent looking at illos -- which are, without a doubt, excellent).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by allen
Not that I'm questioning anyone's ability to perceive the quality of a game or anything, but my experience (and I stress 'my') has always been a new campaign, and esp. a new campaign with a new system, has a 'honeymoon' period. Everyone's excited about the potential, rather than disappointed with the actual. Everyone's exploring what their character can do, rather than dwelling on what their character can't do. The GM and players are kind of making their way through the rules, making up things as they go along, and only later discover the actual interpretation of those rules, which sometimes doesn't jive well with all involved.
You said what I am feeling with far more eloquence than I have been. That is exactly how I feel. Everything is too new right now to make good comparisons. We need time to see how it all fits into the grande scheme.

Thanks Allen.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by mattingly
needs[/i] Hero Points to work, and HERO doesn't.

I'm jumping late into this thread... but I totally agree on this bit about Hero Points.

I'm the GM who runs along with Storn. I run the Champs bit, he runs M&M. We've only played M&M once, but I found that I HAD to use Hero Points to make my character work.

I Champs, I long ago turned Luck (1d6 for 5 pts.) into Chits... 5pts., draw a chit from the bag... essentially a Hero point, but different colored chits allow different level of effect. Stole this idea from Deadlands.

Chits/Hero Points in Champions are a nice extra. They add flexibility, and a way to save yourself when the dice go agaisnt you... but they aren't necessary. M&M Hero Points seem to really be necessary to get your character at all functional. Time will tell if that is truly the case.

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith
So in order for DOJ to "compete" they would need to rewrite major aspects of the entire game. What you will end up with is not the HERO System (it will probably be a rewrite of Fuzion or Action). Past experience has show that the 5,000 faithful do NOT want Fuzion. They want the HERO System.

I never said that DOJ needed to rewrite anything. I did say that they should be looking at what positive things players see in other systems and see if it's applicable. You hit the nail on the head (sorry didn't quote it for space reasons) that people enjoy creating characters in 15-20 minutes. And yes, I know that there are also those who like to get more in-depth.

I'm saying target what people are bitching about. You and I both agree that the UNTIL Superpowers book addresses this need. Amazingly enough that's not a rewrite of any sort and yet addresses a lot of what new players complain about.


DOJ is doing everything it can to please us, shot of putting out a whole new game in the style of SAS or M&M. But ultimately it comes down to the fact that you either like the HERO System for a particular style of play or you don't. The ones who like it will stay with it. The ones that do not will move on to systems that are more to their likings. But ultimately you cannot ask for the HERO System to become something else, just because that something else might or might not be more popular in the short run.

Please go back and actually read what I wrote.

I never once said that the Hero system needs in any way to change. I did say that we should look to see if there's anything to learn from the competition and see what players want. Especially if you want to grow the base of people playing Hero. That's not advocating rules revisionism, just good business.

Which seems to be your concern since you don't want to experience the lean years again.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
I never once said that the Hero system needs in any way to change. I did say that we should look to see if there's anything to learn from the competition and see what players want. Especially if you want to grow the base of people playing Hero. That's not advocating rules revisionism, just good business.
So in your opinion, how can DOJ alter their rules to give the SAS and M&M fans what they want (quicker character creations, less math, quicker combats, etc) without altering the game system? A book of alternate rules perhaps? FREd already stresses to throw out everything you don't like. Do you think the game needs a book dedicated to nothing but rules on how to alter the HERO System to fit individual needs?

[buzz]

Originally posted by Monolith
So in your opinion, how can DOJ alter their rules to give the SAS and M&M fans what they want (quicker character creations, less math, quicker combats, etc) without altering the game system?

I don't think Jerry A! is saying that the solution requires doing anything with the rules. It may simply be a matter of approach and resources.

The UNTIL books seems a step in this direction, i.e., ready-made powers a player can grab and go. Or maybe a book of templates, a la GURPS Warriors, for various genres. Or even the oft-discussed creation of a downloadable "HERO lite."

Then again, mabye there's *nothing* that needs to be done. If you take a cue from the HEROman ad, HERO can be marketed by focusing on its depth/complexity as a selling point. I started a thread on RPG.net commenting on how it seems that "rules-heavy" games are coming back into vogue, and a lot of people seemed to agree with me. Maybe HERO is right where it needs to be. :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Monolith
So in your opinion, how can DOJ alter their rules to give the SAS and M&M fans what they want (quicker character creations, less math, quicker combats, etc) without altering the game system? A book of alternate rules perhaps? FREd already stresses to throw out everything you don't like. Do you think the game needs a book dedicated to nothing but rules on how to alter the HERO System to fit individual needs?

They shouldn't alter their rules. HERO is an alternative (a better alternative IMO) to d20 rules-wise. I'll stress that at some point DOJ needs to look at the production values that SAS and M&M are putting out. The tiny and small company reasoning will not be able to be used forever by DOJ. Green Ronin and GOO cannot be THAT much more massive and powerful money-wise than DOJ at this point.

M&M is a full-color 200 page book for $33.00, I would pay $35 - $40 dollars for a full-color CKC myself. I would be first in line, actually.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by buzz
Then again, mabye there's *nothing* that needs to be done. If you take a cue from the HEROman ad, HERO can be marketed by focusing on its depth/complexity as a selling point. I started a thread on RPG.net commenting on how it seems that "rules-heavy" games are coming back into vogue, and a lot of people seemed to agree with me. Maybe HERO is right where it needs to be. :)
I agree with that completely. Personally I don't think anything needs to be done. I was just curious what other people thought. As I said above, I think the popularity in M&M is just a current fad, and will die down to the SAS level in a few month's time.

Six months ago the rivalry between the SAS and HERO System fans was so bad that it inspired the two companies to do a Showdown to try and calm everyone down. Today everyone, except the most loyal die-hards of the two companies, is asking themselves what the big deal was.

I play Champions and buy SAS and M&M for source material. To me that is the end of the story.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
I'll stress that at some point DOJ needs to look at the production values that SAS and M&M are putting out. The tiny and small company reasoning will not be able to be used forever by DOJ. Green Ronin and GOO cannot be THAT much more massive and powerful money-wise than DOJ at this point.
I agree completely. I would love to see DOJ go full-color and get away from the plan look. I have said as much on three message boards now. :)


M&M is a full-color 200 page book for $33.00, I would pay $35 - $40 dollars for a full-color CKC myself. I would be first in line, actually.
I think you would be the second person in line. :)

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith I agree with that completely. Personally I don't think anything needs to be done. I was just curious what other people thought. As I said above, I think the popularity in M&M is just a current fad, and will die down to the SAS level in a few month's time.

No Monolith, I don't really think that you're curious about what other people think. If that was the case, you would've paid attention to the previous two times that I said the rules don't need to be changed. You might have also paid attention to the time that I said you and I agree that the UNTIL sourcebook is a step in the right direction.

:mad:

[buzz]

Originally posted by Starlord
Green Ronin and GOO cannot be THAT much more massive and powerful money-wise than DOJ at this point.

IIRC, it's only been fairly recently that GR has moved to full-time employment. It used to be the typical "d20 company I run in my spare time" kind of thing. :)

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by buzz
I don't think Jerry A! is saying that the solution requires doing anything with the rules. It may simply be a matter of approach and resources.

The UNTIL books seems a step in this direction, i.e., ready-made powers a player can grab and go. Or maybe a book of templates, a la GURPS Warriors, for various genres. Or even the oft-discussed creation of a downloadable "HERO lite."

Thank you for actually reading what I wrote. For a minute there, I though everyone was selectively editing my posts to disregard the parts where I said nothing needs to be changed.

But now that I think about it... :D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
No Monolith, I don't really think that you're curious about what other people think. If that was the case, you would've paid attention to the previous two times that I said the rules don't need to be changed. You might have also paid attention to the time that I said you and I agree that the UNTIL sourcebook is a step in the right direction.
I was looking for alternatives to changing the rules all along. I am the one who doesn't want to change the rules, and sees no reason to ever do so.

Since I don't know you, and you don't know me, why don't we just agree to avoid personal attacks and keep to the issues at hand? I do not go around making personal attacks on people, and I would expect the same from others

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think you would be the second person in line. :)

Ok, but I get to use Doctor D for my avatar! :)

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith
So in your opinion, how can DOJ alter their rules to give the SAS and M&M fans what they want (quicker character creations, less math, quicker combats, etc) without altering the game system? A book of alternate rules perhaps? FREd already stresses to throw out everything you don't like. Do you think the game needs a book dedicated to nothing but rules on how to alter the HERO System to fit individual needs?

Hey Mono, I really appreciate the way you cut out the entire part of the message where I sad that the rules do not need to be changed.

How about instead of skimming my posts you actually try reading them. Then you'll see that at no point do I advocate changing the rules.

I do however say that things like the UNTIL Sourcebook is a step in the right direction and that it couldn't hurt to see what players are asking for or like about other systems especially if it'll help DOJ capture more of a market.

You know, I wasn't even going to respond to this post. But after seeing you butcher and misquote me in three other messages, I wanted to see what it felt like being an ass as big as yourself.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starlord
I'll stress that at some point DOJ needs to look at the production values that SAS and M&M are putting out.



OK, I think people are starting to believe that black and white means low production value. This is not the case. If you look closely at the layout in all three books, they do in fact use a very similar approach to Hero. Power descriptions, skills, combat, tables - all pretty much look like
Hero books. Heck, SAS even uses gradated fill tables - just like Hero. If you were to add color to all the images in any of the Hero books, you would see that the production of Hero material is just as high if not higher than the others. Yes, some of the older Hero artwork hasn't been as good as the stuff in SAS or M&M - but we've always had some VERY high quality artists and continue to be adding better artists and the image quality continues to increase.

Also, production value also means designing stuff that is easily understood. SAS has a dang flowchart for explaining combat that actually makes their combat MORE confusing. Flowcharts are supposed to make things easier to follow. M&M has cool looking sheets that fit onto a half page - but they aren't designed to be easily read. It's a point based system - yet the sheets (any of the three different formats that you could use) have no place for showing point totals. On top of that - to know what a power can do - you really have to search that power's write-up and find all the hidden powers. Take their super-strength power. It can have several other powers as "Extras". Things like "Protection" or "Shockwave." Now If I quickly want to look at what a character can do I can't just read the name of the power and tell. I have to search the write-up to find any other powers added to it. Makes it more confusing in my opinion - which would actually be a lower production value. All three systems have erratta - M&M is no exception. The book's character sheet has a couple errors on it. Their sample archtype characters don't show point totals either. On top of that, several of the archtypes have construction cost errors on them. Then in their defenses and saving throw bonus sections - it's not clear whether those numbers are the grand total from all bonuses, or if it's a base number which will be augmented by a power. All of this is caused by poor design. This impedes learning. Lowers production value.

I still think M&M is an OK game. I don't think it's a fad that it's popular. It's a good looking game that actually plays pretty well. People like that kind of thing. I think it will survive based on whether or not GR can keep providing supporting products for it.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
How about instead of skimming my posts you actually try reading them. Then you'll see that at no point do I advocate changing the rules.
My mistake. When you said:

If people are jumping ship, then that means that MnM is providing something Hero isn't. As a "community" and as a company, the focus should be meeting players' needs if possible.
What you meant was that DOJ should watch the event happen, but not actually take steps to alter their plans to avoid it?

I don't think you meant that.

Or did you mean that the company should do something to try and meet the needs of the individuals who are leaving, to keep them from leaving?

I think this is what you meant in the paragraph. Find out why the players are leaving and focus on meeting players' needs.

So if you are saying DOJ should take steps to stop this trend by focusing on the players' needs, you must mean that they need to change something that the leaving fans do not like about the HERO System to make it more useful to those fans?

Because I have already given 4 examples of what fans do not like about the HERO System, and you did not give any other examples I could only assume that when you responded to me you were also responding to my examples. The only way to correct my examples is by changing certain aspects of the rules. This mean writing alternate rules; unless you have other things which you think need changing which do not require writing?

Which all gets back to my whole point of: If steps need to be taken, what are those steps?

[Nato]

Monolith, why do you keep thinking Hero fans are leaving to go to SAS and M&M? Are you on some sites where there are people saying they no longer play Hero? Or are you making the assumption that because they used to post on the Hero boards and now they post on the M&M boards that they must not play Hero anymore?

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nato
OK, I think people are starting to believe that black and white means low production value. This is not the case. If you look closely at the layout in all three books, they do in fact use a very similar approach to Hero. Power descriptions, skills, combat, tables - all pretty much look like
Hero books. Heck, SAS even uses gradated fill tables - just like Hero. If you were to add color to all the images in any of the Hero books, you would see that the production of Hero material is just as high if not higher than the others. Yes, some of the older Hero artwork hasn't been as good as the stuff in SAS or M&M - but we've always had some VERY high quality artists and continue to be adding better artists and the image quality continues to increase.


Well, you are obviously more knowledgeable about that than I am. All I'm saying that is that a full color book makes the value to me better by huge amount. When push comes to shove it seems the one sticking point seems to be full color. Heck, I would've paid a small amount just for the excellent colorized Champions that you did Nato. The Super genre SHOULD be colorized. I've emailed Storn about this as well, IIRC he would love to be able to release his work for HERO in color. His stuff is great, but I don't think it came out well in grayscale/B&W. He seemed disappointed as well.

You are an artist yourself and seem to be much better informed in this area. If the production values are already pretty close, why can't an upgrade be made to full color?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nato
Monolith, why do you keep thinking Hero fans are leaving to go to SAS and M&M? Are you on some sites where there are people saying they no longer play Hero? Or are you making the assumption that because they used to post on the Hero boards and now they post on the M&M boards that they must not play Hero anymore?
I suggest you start reading from the beginning. :)

I am not saying that fans are leaving, though I know of some who have left. What I said was that dedicated fans are defensive because they have a fear that the fans will leave, and thus bring back the dark ages of the system. From that point everything just escalated into everyone thinking I am worried about the fans leaving. I was doing nothing but answering buzz's question as to why some game fans cannot get along when other systems are brought up. :)

[archermoo]

I'm kind of curious as to what production values that the people that think that Hero products have low production values are talking about. The books are well put together physically, the layout is excellent and easy to follow. Printing art that is black and white is not a low production value. I for one am glad that they don't print colour art in a rules book. I could see it in CKC maybe, but I buy rules books for the text, not for the pretty pictures. And personally I hope that they continue to print the books in softcover. MUCH easier to use that way. If it was practical to publish FREd in softcover I'd love to get a copy of it that way.

That being said, I'm still hoping that HERO at some point publishes the Leather Bound Hard Cover Full Colour version of FREd that Steve mentioned the possibility of oh so long ago. I'd happily pre-pay for that one.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by archermoo
I'm kind of curious as to what production values that the people that think that Hero products have low production values are talking about. The books are well put together physically, the layout is excellent and easy to follow. Printing art that is black and white is not a low production value. I for one am glad that they don't print colour art in a rules book. I could see it in CKC maybe, but I buy rules books for the text, not for the pretty pictures. And personally I hope that they continue to print the books in softcover. MUCH easier to use that way. If it was practical to publish FREd in softcover I'd love to get a copy of it that way.

That being said, I'm still hoping that HERO at some point publishes the Leather Bound Hard Cover Full Colour version of FREd that Steve mentioned the possibility of oh so long ago. I'd happily pre-pay for that one.

For my part, I don't think I said HERO has 'low' production values. If I did, I misspoke. They are acceptable, just not up to par with the competition IMO. They do get the best artists in the biz, but I don't think they are done justice in grayscale and B&W.

FRED is pretty much straight rules, I don't mind that it is B&W either.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Monolith
I suggest you start reading from the beginning. :)

I am not saying that fans are leaving, though I know of some who have left. What I said was that dedicated fans are defensive because they have a fear that the fans will leave, and thus bring back the dark ages of the system. From that point everything just escalated into everyone thinking I am worried about the fans leaving. I was doing nothing but answering buzz's question as to why some game fans cannot get along when other systems are brought up. :)

Gee, thanks for the suggestion. :)

You had a few posts that gave me the impression that you were stating fans were leaving. Earlier you'd mentioned fans that were posting to the other boards instead of here. I somehow got the impression that you saying they were leaving Hero altogether. My mistake.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starlord
Well, you are obviously more knowledgeable about that than I am. All I'm saying that is that a full color book makes the value to me better by huge amount. When push comes to shove it seems the one sticking point seems to be full color. Heck, I would've paid a small amount just for the excellent colorized Champions that you did Nato. The Super genre SHOULD be colorized. I've emailed Storn about this as well, IIRC he would love to be able to release his work for HERO in color. His stuff is great, but I don't think it came out well in grayscale/B&W. He seemed disappointed as well.

You are an artist yourself and seem to be much better informed in this area. If the production values are already pretty close, why can't an upgrade be made to full color?

Oh, I was just adressing what I thought was a generalization people were starting to make - that lack of color + low production. They're not neccesarily the same. I'm a huge color fan myself. Color does ADD to a book's production value, but not having color doesn't mean "low production value." I guess what I think of when I hear "production value" is just something that is well crafted, thoughtfully designed, clear layout, etc...

As far as printing in full color - it is denitely more expensive. Green Ronin I'm sure had more financial backing to go ahead and print M&M in color than Hero would with one of their products. GR has several other product lines that seem popular. They also probablly predicted that a D20 based product, in the popular superhero genre, would sell very well and make their investment back.

Hero has talked about why they can't a this time print in color, even though everyone would like too. It all boils down to cost and profit.

[Agent X]

I really couldn't care less about color in a rulebook. I would like to see some color for supers illustrations that are in the books in some other format, say, on-line. Still, I think they get a little paranoid about people stealing the art. I'm not sure how anyone can make money without getting caught VERY Quickly, or how they are losing money for people to have colorful versions of the illustrations in CKC, for example, but maybe they are optimistic that market conditions will change and that people will pay just for those pictures. I don't see that happening.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm not sure how anyone can make money without getting caught VERY Quickly, or how they are losing money for people to have colorful versions of the illustrations in CKC, for example, but maybe they are optimistic that market conditions will change and that people will pay just for those pictures. I don't see that happening.
I think this has to deal with two issues: #1-the potential to lose some IP rights when artwork is spread around the internet. #2-the fact that DOJ might want to use some of that color art in a cardboard minatures set sometime in the future. If gamers have access to the art and a color printer they can easily make their own stand-up figures (I know I do), and thus limit the potential that gamers might wish to buy DOJ's figures at a future date.

Personally I would like to see them be a little more open with the art, and I'm greatful that Storn has posted some of it on his website for the fans. Of course I think we will be seeing more and more art on the Showdown website, and a lot of it is wonderfully colored by Natoman. So we can get some of it from there. ;)

[buzz]

Originally posted by Nato
Hero has talked about why they can't a this time print in color, even though everyone would like too. It all boils down to cost and profit.

Color isn't the only issue.

I don't think that HERO has "low" production values, but I do think that:

a) Overall, the art could use a lot of improvement; newer products have been getting better and better

2) The layout, while very functional and generally clear, lacks a certain amount of flair.

I'm not saying that the books look bad, but they could look a lot better. If it were 1995, they'd be in good shape, but RPGs have come a long way since then.

There's nothing wrong with eye-candy. Eye-candy sells books. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think this has to deal with two issues: #1-the potential to lose some IP rights when artwork is spread around the internet. #2-the fact that DOJ might want to use some of that color art in a cardboard minatures set sometime in the future. If gamers have access to the art and a color printer they can easily make their own stand-up figures (I know I do), and thus limit the potential that gamers might wish to buy DOJ's figures at a future date.

Personally I would like to see them be a little more open with the art, and I'm greatful that Storn has posted some of it on his website for the fans. Of course I think we will be seeing more and more art on the Showdown website, and a lot of it is wonderfully colored by Natoman. So we can get some of it from there. ;)

Yep, I just wish game companies appreciated that sometimes the pace of production and the pace of gaming are different. If you give the players carrots here and there that enhances their enjoyment of the game. That makes them more excited about new products and more loyal. That means more of the players in a game actually buy more of the product line. The gain in having 1 in 30 hero players shell out money for cardboard heroes 3 years from now may not be worth the opportunity cost involved. After all, if 5 in 30 of those players play with free cardboard heroes and get that much more excited about Hero - don't wander off - and buy one more book every 3 years... Well, how much more profit is available?

I was in sales for quite awhile and I know one simple rule - keep people happy and excited (enough to gush at others not wise enough to use the product) about your product - not merely satisfied.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by buzz
Color isn't the only issue.

I don't think that HERO has "low" production values, but I do think that:

a) Overall, the art could use a lot of improvement; newer products have been getting better and better

2) The layout, while very functional and generally clear, lacks a certain amount of flair.

I'm not saying that the books look bad, but they could look a lot better. If it were 1995, they'd be in good shape, but RPGs have come a long way since then.

There's nothing wrong with eye-candy. Eye-candy sells books. :)

I'll agree that I haven't liked every peice of art they've had in the books, but I think all of it has been of good quality. Some of it just hasn't been in a style that I like. And personally I'm just as happy with a lack of "flair" in the layout of the books. I'm interested in clear, functional and easy to use, not showy.

I don't object to eye-candy, I'm just more interested in substance.

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith
My mistake. When you said:

Originally posted by Jerry A!
If people are jumping ship, then that means that MnM is providing something Hero isn't. As a "community" and as a company, the focus should be meeting players' needs if possible.

What you meant was that DOJ should watch the event happen, but not actually take steps to alter their plans to avoid it?

I don't think you meant that.

Very much your mistake. You're absolutely right that this is not what I meant. If you would bother to correctly quote in the entire context of the message, then you would have also included the following:


Originally posted by Jerry A!
But I am saying that there is obviously an uncaptured part of the market. If you want to see that 5000 number grow, that's where it'll have to come from.

And maybe the best way to do that is to measure Hero against the competiton and be honest about the results, warts and all.


Or did you mean that the company should do something to try and meet the needs of the individuals who are leaving, to keep them from leaving?

I think this is what you meant in the paragraph. Find out why the players are leaving and focus on meeting players' needs.

So if you are saying DOJ should take steps to stop this trend by focusing on the players' needs, you must mean that they need to change something that the leaving fans do not like about the HERO System to make it more useful to those fans?

Actually, I never talked about bailing players. They're usually a lost cause. In this entire thread I've talked about untapped market potential. Why are people not playing Hero. If Hero wants to grow (and I believe that it does, this is after all a business as much as it is a hobby), then it needs to see what it can be doing better.

You are however reading way too much into my words. In fact, I find it odd that you're only reading in what supports your point. So, if I haven't been clear enough, I'll say this one more time.

THE HERO SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED.

Let me repeat that just to be on the safe side.

THE HERO SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED.


Because I have already given 4 examples of what fans do not like about the HERO System, and you did not give any other examples I could only assume that when you responded to me you were also responding to my examples. The only way to correct my examples is by changing certain aspects of the rules. This mean writing alternate rules; unless you have other things which you think need changing which do not require writing?

Which all gets back to my whole point of: If steps need to be taken, what are those steps?

You assume too much. I'll assume that's because you didn't bother paying attention to the rest of the stuff I said. So, I'll go through them one more time for you.

The UNTIL Sourcebook is something that newbie players have been clamoring for. Heck, even some veterans.

The toughest sell on this product will be people asking why as a beginning player they'll need to buy FREd, Champions and the UNTIL sourcebook. But that's out of scope for this discussion.

I also said that the unprecented move of publicly asking for input on the contents of FH and the UNTIL sourcebook definitely a good move. What better way to find out what players want than by asking them?

As for combat, I already posted a suggestion in another thread. But I'll reiterate it. Newbie players need a good, annotated sample combat of moderate complexity to walk through. The best example that I can think of was in either a Star Wars Gamer or Dragon Magazine shortly after 3e was published.

In said article, a small battle was detailed with multiple players. It covered the most common combat situations. And it provided page references to the rules and explained some of the logic behind the tactics. It provided an excellent example for the feel of how combat worked in the system.

Ever player that I've had read it swears it makes it easier to understand the rules once they see them applied from start to finish.

Hero needs that!

The combat rules are 62 pages long. That is very daunting for new players. Don't change them. But give them something a little leaner to start chewing on.

These are the things that many of the new players I've exposed to the system complain about. I'm sure that there are other things but I'm not the one to speak to those issues.

[Nato]

Oh, you are SO right about Hero needing an example combat session in one of it's books!!! That would be HUGE help to a newbie. And probablly many established players. The BBB had a great intro to playing Hero section. Almost like a "quick start" section. It explained the basics of the rules. At the end of the rules section, it also had two or three pages that had a short, detailed combat session. I believe it featured Ogre, Crusader and Starburst. I'm glad I still have my copy of it. But since this 5th edition will be the first time many players are introduced to the system, I definitely think something like this would have been a very big plus.

Maybe it would not be too late to include something like this in the UNTIL Powers book. Maybe call the section "Superpowers in Action" and thus integrate it with the theme of the book while being an invaluable resource to new players and GMs. For new players playing under an established GM this isn't as much of a problem, but for new GM hoping to start this game with other newbies, it seems like a must.

[Nato]

OK, you guys all want to know the REAL reason Hero is the BEST superhero game out there?

Our Incredible Hulk has FOUR arms!!! Yeah baby!

<-----------------------

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Nato
Oh, you are SO right about Hero needing an example combat session in one of it's books!!!

Thanks.


Maybe it would not be too late to include something like this in the UNTIL Powers book. Maybe call the section "Superpowers in Action" and thus integrate it with the theme of the book while being an invaluable resource to new players and GMs. For new players playing under an established GM this isn't as much of a problem, but for new GM hoping to start this game with other newbies, it seems like a must.

I would suggest not making players pay for this. Maybe a DH article where this is one of the freebies that's posted for download.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Jerry A!
Thanks.



I would suggest not making players pay for this. Maybe a DH article where this is one of the freebies that's posted for download.

I have to agree with you on that.

My main concern is getting the new guys to understand the phased turn system.

[Allensh]

Allow me to muddy things up a little bit here.

I do not play Hero anymore. I am running Mutants and Masterminds.

I intend to buy every product Hero puts out.

Why am I not playing Hero? Mainly because I am actually my groups main (actually only) GM and my players don't want to mess with phases, Endurance costs, counting STUN and BODY, characters with 10+ stats and complicated math.
They want a game that plays quickly, is relatively easy to make characters for, and they can understand.

Also, I am not running Champions because the previous four times I have tried to do so, my enthusiasm has been killed by the Hero players in my vicinity. They have killed this by:

- powergaming and min-maxing their characters to death rather than building interesting characters;

- Arguing with me incessantly over the campaign limits I have set, even though those limits came directly out of the book;

- Refusing to cooperate with the way I want to run my superhero campaign even though in some cases they have gamed with me for a decade or more and KNOW that I am a Silver Age/Bronze Age kinda guy and do not want my superheroes to go around killing villains indiscriminately.

And absolutely NONE of these reasons have to do with the game system. But they add up to me simply not wanting to deal with the bs that goes along with running Hero for them anymore. (or at least Champions.)

But I am still here and I am not going anywhere. I will buy everything DOJ puts out that I reasonably can, and who knows, maybe someday I will use it.

Allen

[Nato]

Well, here's hopin' you find some good players to run a fun Hero campaign for someday!

[Steve Long]

I also said that the unprecented move of publicly asking for input on the contents of FH and the UNTIL sourcebook definitely a good move.

One quick correction... this is not "unprecedented," at least not for Hero. ;)

I did it for the Bestiary.
I did it for Champions.
I did it for CKC.
I did it for TUV.

I probably did it for other books as well (SH, UMA, CU), but I can't recall for sure so I'm not going to make any claims.

Also -- the UNTIL Sourcebook isn't on the schedule for several months; I think you're referring to The UNTIL Superpowers Database, which I'm currently writing and for which there's currently a discussion thread going. It's a book of pregenerated superpowers, not a book about UNTIL -- just to be clear in case someone gets upset because they don't have a book about UNTIL in a couple months. ;)

[Yamo]

I do not play Hero anymore. I am running Mutants and Masterminds.

I don't understand. What do min/maxing, arguing over power limits, and disrupting your campaign mood and setting have to do with HERO? And why do these problems all disappear when you play M&M instead? :confused:

[buzz]

Originally posted by Yamo
I don't understand. What do min/maxing, arguing over power limits, and disrupting your campaign mood and setting have to do with HERO? And why do these problems all disappear when you play M&M instead? :confused:

I have to agree. I see these specific compaints leveled at HERO all the time, yet they seem to be common to most RPGs. These tend to be problems with the players, not the system.

Frankly, based on what I've read on the M&M boards, that game is probably even more prone to things like min/max-ing, as the point-cost system is still pretty "green." HERO's had 20-odd years to work out most of the kinks.

M&M is still pretty darn cool, though. :cool:

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by buzz


M&M is still pretty darn cool, though. :cool:

Sure is. I think that they really gave the game the feel of a free flowing comic book. Let's face it, FREd, although it is pack full of crunchy goodness, is very daunting looking, especially to the intermediate and below type of gamer.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Law Dog
Let's face it, FREd, although it is pack full of crunchy goodness, is very daunting looking, especially to the intermediate and below type of gamer.

I have to say, though, I was suprised how dry a read M&M was. In a way this is a good thing, as the general terseness packs a lot of rules infromation into a fairly slim volume, but it's a bit of a snoozer. Thankfully, the wonderful art compensates for this a bit.

It definitely needed way more exmaples, though, which HERO has over it in spades. :)

[Allensh]

Originally posted by Yamo
I don't understand. What do min/maxing, arguing over power limits, and disrupting your campaign mood and setting have to do with HERO? And why do these problems all disappear when you play M&M instead? :confused:

I was pointing out why I was not playing Hero, and I tried to make the point that none of these were the fault of the system itself. I am not "leaving Hero for MnM" because of the game system per se (although the general ease of using MnM as compared to Hero does fit a bit better with my schedule, as it faster to prepare).

One reason the problems dissapear when we play MnM is because some of the problem people won't play MnM, therefore they go away. Secondly, the people who ARE playing it with me generally don't know the rules well enough to munchkinize them yet; hopefully I can get them used to playing it my way before they get to that point.

Hero is not responsible for the fact that some people misuse it. It just works better for me to run Mutants and Masterminds right now. But I remain a loyal Hero customer.

Allen

[Thag13]

I think we lost some posters over the DOS attack DOJ suffered from last month.

I belive that has more to due with "lost Posters" than anything right now.

I think if you look at DOJ list of books that are coming out on time and the number of books, its very impressive.

What has SAS or M&M done in terms of follow up??

I ahve not seen that much SAS, I do see a few M&M books, but the Hero books are filling up the shelves.

I think many players will come back and some new players will try the new games like Star Hero, and Fanta;syHero.

I belive there is a real lack of Good SF material out there. Traveller not withstanding.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Thag13

I belive there is a real lack of Good SF material out there. Traveller not withstanding.

Well, for non-television/movie-established SF (like Star Trek or Farscape), I find myself enjoying Transhuman Space with the added bonus it converts to Hero pretty well.

[rowport]

Wow, guys, there is a lot more vehemence in this thread than I expected to see!! I was interested in getting HERO fans' (at least, if I can use the fact that you folks are posting here as a proxy that you are also HERO fans...) reactions to M&M. I game with Buzz, and as he alluded to earlier, we are about to try out some M&M game sessions. Now, I am a long-time Champions fan, as is he, and I suspect that we both would have chosen a Champions game except that our group runs all d20 (not as a hard rule, but as general practice). OK, so with that background, here is my take:

1. Character Generation Mechanics.
Personally, I really prefer M&M's approach to both chargen mechanics more than HERO's (or, at least Champions- another poster made a good point that where M&M is very well suited to high-action genres, it is not as flexible as HERO). It is clearly true that a Champions character knows with much more precision exactly what he can do: as in the recent HERO ad, where Heroman pointed this out to Sentinel when S.'s powers were "an Inconsistent Goo"! (I realize that this is an SAS jab, but the concept still applies.) The thing is, I am not convinced that total precision is ultimately that useful. While in some ways it reduces arguments, in others it increases them, since it encourages metagame thinking. I despise metagame thinking. Also, that precision requires complexity, which does scare some folks. Frankly, I like the notion of asking "what type of superhero do you want to play?" and being able to immediately look at the powers list and start defining the character. Now, I realize that HERO/Champions also allows this, but let's face it, a newbie choosing baseline powers from the HERO list would get crushed in combat from a more-sophisticated Champions player, who knows that certain power contstructs are more effective than others. M&M's lack of complexity makes this much more simple- realizing that there is ample room for balance issues which might need to be resolved during play.

2. Combat Mechanics.
Here is where M&M really shines, IMHO. While I accept that experienced Champions players likely resolve combat in similar time, from my own playtests I found M&M significantly faster- and expect even better relative improvement from a group not already playing Champions. I find it very interesting that M&M has optional rules allowing hit points to be used, but that no posters on their boards are using those rules. That tells me that folks like keeping it simple. Me, too.

3. Production values, Company responses, etc.
Several of you lost me in your debates on this stuff. I love both companies. Both Steve L. and Steve K. have quickly responded to me in both posts and personal e-mails when appropriate. That said, I will give HERO the edge in its fantastic level of customer support: the daily 5th Ed. Q&A sets a very high bar, and Green Ronin is taking too long IMO to formalize its errata. For production values, I like color, but I am also perfectly happy with the meaty (albeit B&W) content of the HERO books. I realize that financial restrictions may be a bigger factor for some than others, but I expect to continue buying products from both companies (and I bought SAS as well).

Someone (Monolith?) suggested that once we played M&M for a bit, to come back and post again. While I expect to be around in between then, I will certainly do that.

:)

And, speaking for only myself, I was temporarily absent from the HERO boards because of the LOS rather than M&M.

[i3ullseye]

Well, this thread has been referenced on the Green Ronin forums, so rather than re-inventing the wheel...

Here is my post from there:

Love both games.... but let me add this.

HERO was (and is) my favorite game system of all time. I started with first edition, right as second was due out. I have played just about every supers game system (and most rolleplaying systems for that matter) that has been released in the US since about 83. Love most of them. It is not the rules that make a game fun, period. It is the people you game with and the games youa re in.

NOw we ran Champions non-stop for about 3 years. When i went into the military I ran either Champions or Fanntasy HERO for a solid 3 years, multiple times a week. And ya know what? I STILL can't quote every little detail about the HERO system. hehe...

But here is the real misnomer, and the thing to remember. You need that detail to make a character. but not to play the game. there is really only 3 dice dynamics, and once the character is created, everything you need is clearly spelled out on your character sheet. You know what you are and aren't capable of doing. So if the GM is knowledgable, and helps the players create solid characters up front, even completely new players have no problems with HERO.

But when I saw M&M I was amazed. i like D20 systems, and love what Wizards has done with 3E D&D. Between Wizards and AEG there are some amazing books out there. and then i see Green Ronin. The quality of these books we see now is unsurpassed. The art, printing, layout, etc.... just superb.

I was certain after playing M&M a few times i would never go back to my beloved HERO system. But then I found one snag.

Scaling.........

Now for all the good and bad of each, the real issue here is scaling. M&M works amazingly well from about PL7 to PL12. Any lower and you don't really get the street level feel you might want. The system (even with all the optional rules) does not really cover skilled heros very well. If you go above PL12 you start to get the all-or-nothing feel. you either succeed at what you do easily, or have no chance at all to do it.

HERO does not have this problem. Scaling. Multiple Genres. Etc.... it takes it all in stride and still works. And it is balanced the entire time. That is its real strength.

So why i do love M&M for a quick and fast super game, there is not the depth i have grown accustomed to. And if i run the game, the burden is really on my shoulders. If i can quote rules like gospel, no need for the players to worry about too much detail in the game. Ideally they shoudl just have to tell the GM what they wish to do, and the GM tells them what they need to roll. So the most important aspect is the GM being familiar with, and comfortable with, he game system. and the game system has to have the depth to fashion what he wishes.

Yes, the players must enjoy the system. but i feel a good and engaging GM could even make Fuzion fun (sorry, couldn't resist... hehe). I mean, people DO play Shadowrun and Vampire afterall.

:p

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by i3ullseye



HERO does not have this problem. Scaling. Multiple Genres. Etc.... it takes it all in stride and still works. And it is balanced the entire time. That is its real strength.

:p


It's not something that I'd agree with. It seems to run about 50/50 on Hero players that think the game mechanics suffer from a breakdown at the street level. It just starts seeming too much like everybody is the same at these levels. GURPS seems to do just the opposite.

And although it does handle multiple genres better than any other system, there are certain genres where I feel that other systems handle the genre better.

And I do agree with your point about M&M. I'd love to see HERO get a hold of whoever is in charge of the art and "flavor" over at Green Ronin.

And, of course, you are a blasphemer for what you said about The Big Green Donkey Dic . . . er, Fuzion system. :D

[buzz]

The thread that wouldn't die! :)

Now that I've had a chance to actually play M&M, I have to say that I'm even less impressed with it. Granted, we've only done one session so far, so this is still a "first impression" as it were.

First off, I found chargen a lot trickier than it first appeared. You can't really come to M&M with a HERO mentality. Unlike HERO, M&M PCs don't start with any "base" stats other than ability scores; everything else (saves, attack bonuses, etc.) starts at ZERO. Ergo, you have to remember to set aside a good portion of points for those aspects if you want the PC to be at all balanced for their power level.

(Which is something I also find bizarre about M&M. Since there's no level-based progressions for saves or attack/defense bonuses, characters will have bonuses all over the map. IIRC, there's oen archetype PC in the book at PL10 that has a Damage save of +1. I have no idea how they're supposed to be expected to survive any kind of combat. Freaking commoners in D&D don't have saves as bad as that.)

Powers, feats and skills also add up fast. The only way I was able to afford the powers I wanted for my concept was to buy a main power and then get others as Extras; this makes the PC more vulnerable to drain/nullify type effects, but I didn't see any other way to work it. Again, a "tricky" aspect of M&M chargen. And then there's the whole issue of skill costs, and needing to simulate being highly-skilled by taking ranks of Super-Intelligence.

Combat was also kind of a mess. I was using my second attempt at my PC, which had more defenses than the Power Stakcing rules allowed (my own oversight; Power Stacking is also "tricky" and not explained well enough*), yet I don't think I made a single Damage save the entire session. Consequently, I was eating up Hero Points to compensate. The GM was also having some problems, as his major NPCs seemed to either be immune to any attacks or else went down with a single blow. And then there's the weirdness of how "super-movement" rates trasnlate into maybe 15-20mph when in combat. My 2nd-level D&D barbarian is a speedster by M&M reckoning. :)

I dunno. Like I said, this was only one session, so maybe my complaints are more a reflection of my unfamiliarity with the rules. Still, none of my "first sessions" with other d20 games (e.g., D&D, CoCd20, D20Modern) left me feeling as puzzled as M&M has.


*My biggest complaint with many parts of the rules; I would have been happier with a thicker book if more explanatory text could have been included.

[tesuji]

Overall, i agree, your issues are more of lack of understanding or experience on your part.


Originally posted by buzz
[B]
First off, I found chargen a lot trickier than it first appeared. You can't really come to M&M with a HERO mentality.

Agreed completely.

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
Unlike HERO, M&M PCs don't start with any "base" stats other than ability scores;

Yeah, such a silly notion of just starting a base character with attributes of 10, base move of +6 (30') and the various free stats that stem from those, like all those untrained skills.

So glad that HERo works things so differently.

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
everything else (saves, attack bonuses, etc.) starts at ZERO. Ergo, you have to remember to set aside a good portion of points for those aspects if you want the PC to be at all balanced for their power level.

Since you mentioned "unlike hero" please point me to where a 350 point hero character has any defenses vs drain or damage for free that they did not buy with cp?

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
(Which is something I also find bizarre about M&M. Since there's no level-based progressions for saves or attack/defense bonuses, characters will have bonuses all over the map. IIRC, there's oen archetype PC in the book at PL10 that has a Damage save of +1. I have no idea how they're supposed to be expected to survive any kind of combat. Freaking commoners in D&D don't have saves as bad as that.)

There are actually three...

lady hex has +1 but also has a +10 force field.
marathon has +1 but also has super-evasion and so ends up with +14 except vs things he cannot evade.

mimic has just a +1, in his basic form, but his power suites are either alternate forms, where the combat forms provide protection at +10, or the power mimicing where he gains the powers of his enemies, and presumably dupes their defenses.



Originally posted by buzz
[B]
Powers, feats and skills also add up fast. The only way I was able to afford the powers I wanted for my concept was to buy a main power and then get others as Extras; this makes the PC more vulnerable to drain/nullify type effects, but I didn't see any other way to work it.

yeah, a silly concept. linking together related powers of the same FX into a "framework" that reduces cost but which allows them to be affected simultaneously by powers that affect the base power source.

Amazingly though, it was done in a much more straightforward mechanic than say, an EC.

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
Again, a "tricky" aspect of M&M chargen. And then there's the whole issue of skill costs, and needing to simulate being highly-skilled by taking ranks of Super-Intelligence.

Much more so than say in hero buying a lot of INT or skill levels to feed multiple science skills?

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
Combat was also kind of a mess. I was using my second attempt at my PC, which had more defenses than the Power Stakcing rules allowed (my own oversight; Power Stacking is also "tricky" and not explained well enough*), yet I don't think I made a single Damage save the entire session.

Since the odds of a damage save being made is directly related to the damage vs the defenses, this seems either to be a scenario design issue (GM) or a caracter design issue.

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
Consequently, I was eating up Hero Points to compensate.

A mechanic hero lacks. What happens in hero if a bad roll KOs your PC? You go get drinks?

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
The GM was also having some problems, as his major NPCs seemed to either be immune to any attacks or else went down with a single blow.

Sounds like bad scenario design.

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
And then there's the weirdness of how "super-movement" rates trasnlate into maybe 15-20mph when in combat. My 2nd-level D&D barbarian is a speedster by M&M reckoning. :)

hats odd. In my game, the dlowest PC, who spent 1/50th of his pp available on running, is faster than the barbarian at second level would be in dnd.

if a character in hero doesn't spend point on movement/speed above normal human, they don't move any faster, do they?

Originally posted by buzz
[B]
I dunno. Like I said, this was only one session, so maybe my complaints are more a reflection of my unfamiliarity with the rules. Still, none of my "first sessions" with other d20 games (e.g., D&D, CoCd20, D20Modern) left me feeling as puzzled as M&M has.



without classes, mnm relies on the gm and the player, along with its built in metrics, to do the basic groundwork. Its no different than hero in this regard except that the mechanics are simpler to grasp and manipulate and it does have some built in balancing aspects.

[ShadowRaptor]

Here's .02 to throw into the mix.

I had at one time SAS d20, M&M, HERO 5, Heroes Unlimited 2nd edition, and the old Marvel SH game from '88. Now, I just have HERO 5 and MSH because it has a nostalgia effect for me. Why? Because I just like it more, that's why.

I played SAS d20, and after making three characters using their class system I noticed just how messed up the characters can be. It's just not that balanced for what I like.

I played M&M, loved the combat system and like the damage resistance, love the full color book but 35.00 for under 200 pages is too much, plus the fact that many characters went down after one shot due to a unlucky bad roll (mainly NPC's) it was so fast during the three combats we had that we were like....'that's it.' Combat not detailed enough. It has the feel for superhero combat, but I think its too reliant on that single die to keep it really going.

Then there is HERO 5. What can I say. Sure it has 14 characteristics where the others have 6. Sure you have to keep track of stun, end, body and recovery, and at first that can take a while. Sure character creation is daunting, especially when your new to the system. Sure the book is huge enough to make you feel like you have to go to college to understand it...it is the size of a standard text book... but the thing that truly sets it apart from the others is the inclusion of Disadvantages. Nothing helps design a rounded character better, and that is why I pick HERO. I sold the other books because I did, sure they were fun to try, but they weren't detailed enough for my tastes. I couldn't make, using the game mechanics, the kinds of characters I can make with HERO and all its characteristics and power options and skills and disadvantages. It might be abusable to min/maxing, but not as much as D&D or M&M. d20 is d20, no matter what book it is, and d20 leads to min/maxing in order for its characters to survive.

Color is nice, but it doesn't mean a thing when it comes to mechanics and character creation. It's just pretty.

HERO is the only game I run, its the only one that provides me a real challenge, and its detailed enough to keep me busy for many hours of fun and playing.

[i3ullseye]

Um, trying to be a bit harsh are we?

not going to go down the list point by point, but the original post had some very valid concerns. At equal level, you can take a hero out of the combat with 20% regularity with stun, or 50% regularity for a full KO. Thugs are no threat, cause you hit them and they drop.

Where do basic powers help you in HERO? Well, one big one is the fact that one hit does not drop or stun you with almost clockwork regularity. Then there is the idea that your stats add to your avoidance and resistance in a more impactful way.

Do you increase your movement? yes you do. Because higher dex leads to higher speed. hihger speed means you move your normal incrmenet more times a turn. A 33 Dex HERO moves twice as fast as a normal man with no points spent on running, so yes.

Max a stat can help you in M&M is +5, so thats 25%. so 1/4 pr 4 in 16. there are 16 numbners availabel on 3D6(but they are weighted toward the midle... we will ignore this) and a human maz stat of 20 swings this by 4. So 4 in 16, they match. Max stats in both systems are on par all things considered.

but are they really in combat?

Max human Str and Dex give +5 attack, damage and defense.

Max Dex in HERO gives +7 to Attack and Defenses.

so M&M takes it from a 50/50 chance to hit and turns it into a 75% chance of defense on a straight roll.

HERo takes a 50/50 chance at 11 or less and adds 7, this means 18. Thats the max you can roll on 3D6 so you are looking at the difference between hman max, you convert it to almost a 100% chance of base defense.... so yes, stats DO help you dramatically more in offense and defense.

Damage save target in M&M is 15. A 20 Con will reduce this to a 50/50 chance on a hit that is at 0 damage. Strength 10 is a 0 damage.

So 10 Str in hero is 2d6. A 20 Con/Body gives you a PD of 4. This will cancel ALL the body damage and result in only stun, which balances again. But you will have 40 stun, making it take at least 4 hits to knock you out, where in M&M it can happen with one.

So again, yes the stats make you better.

[Agent Escafarc]

We gave M&M a 6 week trial and it pretty much left us unimpressed. As others have said HERO has more substance.

[buzz]

FWIW, your post is coming off as really smarmy, which is totally uncalled for. But I'll assume it's jsut the nature of not being face-to-face, and not that it was your intention.


Originally posted by tesuji
Since you mentioned "unlike hero" please point me to where a 350 point hero character has any defenses vs drain or damage for free that they did not buy with cp?

A competent normal in HERO starts out with a certain amount of PD, ED, STUN, BODY, and a basic CV. M&M characters start with 10s in all abilities, which give them +0 in everything. They have no defenses, no attack bonuses, and no saves.


Originally posted by tesuji
lady hex has +1 but also has a +10 force field.

(Other exmaples snipped)

Point taken. It's still weird to see 10th-level PCs wth such weak saves though.


Originally posted by tesuji
yeah, a silly concept. linking together related powers of the same FX into a "framework" that reduces cost but which allows them to be affected simultaneously by powers that affect the base power source.

Amazingly though, it was done in a much more straightforward mechanic than say, an EC.

I never said it was a silly concept. I'm saying that it seems to be *the* way to make PCs in M&M, otherwise your points don't seem to go very far. If you try the "laundry list" approach, you're screwed. At least in HERO, I have a choice.

Anyway, you're twisting my words. I'm just saying that this requires a bit of a paradigm shift if you're used to HERO, ergo, I found it "tricky." My bigger beef is that I didn't think this "trick" was all that well explained.


Originally posted by tesuji
Much more so than say in hero buying a lot of INT or skill levels to feed multiple science skills?

In HERO, if I want a highly-skilled PC, I simply buy skills. The PC doesn't even need a high INT, as there are enough points to go around. Skills are cheap. And high INT doesn't equate to "super-intelligence." Even the Normal max of 20 is pretty hefty.

In M&M, however, unless you're using the 1:3 skill point ratio variant rule, you CANNOT make a highly-skilled character without buying Super-Int and various Talented feats, beause skills are simply too expensive. The M&M FAQ states this explicitly: you either buy super-int and feats, or you go with the 1:3 ratio.


Originally posted by tesuji
Since the odds of a damage save being made is directly related to the damage vs the defenses, this seems either to be a scenario design issue (GM) or a caracter design issue.

I suppose. Still, all we did was make some characters and put them in a fight, and the results were all over the place. If there's more guidance necessary to creating a balanced challenge, the rulebook certainly doesn't provide it.


Originally posted by tesuji
A mechanic hero lacks. What happens in hero if a bad roll KOs your PC? You go get drinks?

I have nothing against Hero Points/Drama Dice/Dramatic Editing mechanics. I'm just saying, M&M seems to really require them. HERO less so, since the odds that one bad roll will KO your PC is pretty slim.

Are you implying that any RPG wihtout such a mechanic is flawed?


Originally posted by tesuji
hats odd. In my game, the dlowest PC, who spent 1/50th of his pp available on running, is faster than the barbarian at second level would be in dnd.

if a character in hero doesn't spend point on movement/speed above normal human, they don't move any faster, do they?

I don't think you're understanding what I wrote.

It's just the funkiness of the way movement in M&M works. Marathon has 10 ranks in Super-Speed, the max allowed by his PL. This translates, in combat, to 80' per round, which is... 9mph. If he takes a full-round action to sprint, he can go about 35mph.

Sure, in practice, marathon is still running rings around other PCs on the battleboard, but it just seems goofy that the fastest a starting speedster can move in combat woulnd't even merit him a speeding ticket. :)

It's just one of those "Murphy's Rules" observations, not really a criticism.


Originally posted by tesuji
without classes, mnm relies on the gm and the player, along with its built in metrics, to do the basic groundwork. Its no different than hero in this regard except that the mechanics are simpler to grasp and manipulate and it does have some built in balancing aspects.

I dunno. I'm not saying that it's not possible to keep things balanced, I just think that, for a system that, imho, really demands balance for succesfull play, the rulebook doesn't give you much of any guidance. And there's certainly nothing "built in" to the game that provides it.

But, like I said, we'll see how my opinion evolves as our campaign progresses.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by buzz

A competent normal in HERO starts out with a certain amount of PD, ED, STUN, BODY, and a basic CV. M&M characters start with 10s in all abilities, which give them +0 in everything. They have no defenses, no attack bonuses, and no saves.

Absolutely.

and if you understood the system you would take a small step beyond what is apparently an assumption of "+0 = nothing" to look at the numbers in play.

Against a SMG shot... a hero with 0 in damage save, a hero who has spent nothing on defense at all -- not a single point--- by basis of having just thse +0 10's you make such a point of...
has a 10% chance of being unhurt on a hit.
has a 25% chance of being "dinged" or mildly wounded (only affecting) his chance of being able to resist future hits, a 25% chance of being stunned for one round, and a 40% chance of being disabled.

The system is balanced to make those +0s not nothing.

By contrast, a hero in hero who has not improved his combat stats and has just the basic normal guy PD, ED stun body etc you arevery happy to cling to has no chance of being disabled (max of 7 body damage vs 8 body) but more than a 25% chance of being con stunned.

Sounds like a flavor difference to me.


Originally posted by buzz

Point taken. It's still weird to see 10th-level PCs wth such weak saves though.

Its not a class system, so therefore there are no built in progressions. If you build a character with weak saves, you have a character with weak saves. If you build a character with weak attack rolls, yopu get a character wuth weak attack rolls.

you get what you build. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I gotta admit it seems odd for someone as much a herophile as you seem to be complaining about getting what you build.


Originally posted by buzz

I never said it was a silly concept. I'm saying that it seems to be *the* way to make PCs in M&M, otherwise your points don't seem to go very far. If you try the "laundry list" approach, you're screwed. At least in HERO, I have a choice.

I have seen character in play who were mostly "frameworks" in Mnm and i have seen those who were not. Both seem to work.

Does saving points by using a framework have a benefit just like it does in hero with ECs and multipowers? Sure.

Is it unworkable to avoid such in MnM? no.

no more than in hero.

Originally posted by buzz

Anyway, you're twisting my words. I'm just saying that this requires a bit of a paradigm shift if you're used to HERO,

i agree completely that if you come to MNM expecting to work like in hero then you are in for s surprise and if you take your hero techniques into it you may well find they do not work.


Originally posted by buzz

ergo, I found it "tricky." My bigger beef is that I didn't think this "trick" was all that well explained.

MnM mechanics and chargen premises are much easier to grasp and understand than in hero.

thats my experience.

the huge difference between the two systems in my experience is this...

hero makes attacks other than the basic "bash stun thru defenses until they drop" variety basically unfeasible in most normal working play. You are much more effective going for the normal bash-em-til-they-drop.

in MnM there is much more to worry about than just the things, like you keep referincing that go thru damage-save.

people who walk into mnm like they do in hero and build pcs with damage save and force field and such and such will probably find a rude awakening when a mental blast rocks their world.

"what do you mean ego attacks can really hurt me in this game?"

Originally posted by buzz

In HERO, if I want a highly-skilled PC, I simply buy skills. The PC doesn't even need a high INT, as there are enough points to go around. Skills are cheap. And high INT doesn't equate to "super-intelligence." Even the Normal max of 20 is pretty hefty.

it is in MnM too.

the games were not built to be identical. In MnM its better to design your pcs with a high stat or super stat when you want to reflect a high level of aptitude in multiple skills. Similar options exist in hero.

In Mnm, to have enough medical skill to stabilize a dying individual under normal conditions you need to spend 5 cp to make a take-10 15 check. Thats about 3% of your typical 150 cp.

In hero, under the same "no penalty" circumstances, you need to spend 11 cp or about 3% of your 350.

For those for whom this isn't enough, there are optional rules to provide for more skill points as shown in the MnM faq.

Originally posted by buzz

I suppose. Still, all we did was make some characters and put them in a fight, and the results were all over the place. If there's more guidance necessary to creating a balanced challenge, the rulebook certainly doesn't provide it.

The guidance would be "looik at the characters and sample power" or something akin. If people build character "like in hero" and ignore things like mental attacks and such because hero taught them these other attacks are pound-forpound too expensive to be as threatening as bash-em-til-they-drop, then they are in for a rude awakening in MnM.

Build characters based on MnM not hero, and it works much better.

Originally posted by buzz

I have nothing against Hero Points/Drama Dice/Dramatic Editing mechanics. I'm just saying, M&M seems to really require them. HERO less so, since the odds that one bad roll will KO your PC is pretty slim.

I find it rather plreasing that the system which according to you "relies on them" has them and the system which doesn't need them doesn't have them.

its almost like the guys who did MnM put those in for areason.

wierd, huh?

Originally posted by buzz

Are you implying that any RPG wihtout such a mechanic is flawed?

nope.

Originally posted by buzz

Sure, in practice, marathon is still running rings around other PCs on the battleboard,

which is precisely what was intended.

Originally posted by buzz

I dunno. I'm not saying that it's not possible to keep things balanced, I just think that, for a system that, imho, really demands balance for succesfull play, the rulebook doesn't give you much of any guidance. And there's certainly nothing "built in" to the game that provides it.

i haver no earthly notion of what level or extent of information would be sifficient to bring you up to speed on MnM balance.

it could be as simple as "this isn't hero so dont expect it to work that way" or it could be pages upon pages.

its as simple as a d20 roll and odds.

[arcady]

Originally posted by buzz
PCs don't start with any "base" stats other than ability scores; everything else (saves, attack bonuses, etc.) starts at ZERO. Ergo, you have to remember to set aside a good portion of points for those aspects if you want the PC to be at all balanced for their power level.This is not a fully accurate picture of it. All of those others do get a bonus from your base stats. For example you get a bonus to Fort saves of (Con/2)-5. Coming from Hero, you can think of Fort, Will, Damage and Ref as figured stats.
Attack gets a bonus of (Str/2)-5 for melee, and (Dex/2)-5 for ranged.

Few of these things start at zero, if they did when you ran it, I can see why your results were so problematic.


there's oen archetype PC in the book at PL10 that has a Damage save of +1I presume you're refering to knock-off. Note that he has level 10 mimic, so he's going to have a much higher damage save if he faces an opponant with a higher damage save. He's a mimicer, alone in a dark room he's powerless, but even against a normal he will power up to at least their equal.


The only way I was able to afford the powers I wanted for my concept was to buy a main power and then get others as Extras;Kind of like Elemental Control and Multipower eh? You don't have to do it btw, and I've made viable characters without doing it. But you do get a big boost by going down this route. JUST LIKE IN HERO.

If you were an SaS player, you'd have a legitimate gripe here... that game has no Elemental Control / Multipower / themed concept benifit. But this is a long tradition in Hero, that MnM is also using, because it's one of those things that you see on most comic book characters (having a unified concept that is).


And then there's the whole issue of skill costs, and needing to simulate being highly-skilled by taking ranks of Super-Intelligence.Super-Int: flaw: skills only. What's the problem? Characters with a unified theme in their skills get a massive point break over those with no consistancy...

Power Stacking is also "tricky" and not explained well enough*)The total bonus from all powers to any one situation, thing, or whatever cannot be more than your Power Level. That's even easier to understand than '50 active points'.

"super-movement" rates trasnlate into maybe 15-20mph when in combat.Tactical movement and sprinting non tactical movement can throw you when you first see them. But Hero has the same thing: You have your inches of movement, and then your non combat movement multiple.

I dunno. Like I said, this was only one session, so maybe my complaints are more a reflection of my unfamiliarity with the rules.Possibly... It is -very- different from d20, and yet still familiar as OGL, so it can throw people's expectations and strategies.

[arcady]

Originally posted by tesuji
[B]people who walk into mnm like they do in hero and build pcs with damage save and force field and such and such will probably find a rude awakening when a mental blast rocks their world.I'm just itching to use something like the Stun Power or the Paralysis power... :)

Or Slick... gotta love slick...


Oh... on those Hero Points...

Look at the Luck Power in MnM, and think about it combination with a lot of Hero Points... That gives a flexibility you just can't get anywhere else...

I think luck in the original DC Heroes was sort of similar, but more unbalancing if I remember right.

[arcady]

For those of you who want to see what the MnM fans have to say on this same topic, here's the URL:
http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2670

Let's all keep it friendly though. :D

Often when you mix communities like this, it can get nasty...

[Mutant for Hire]

HERO is complicated, but not as complicated as it appears on first glance.

M&M is simple, but not as simple as it appears on first glance.

[buzz]

Originally posted by tesuji
and if you understood the system you would take a small step beyond what is apparently an assumption of "+0 = nothing" to look at the numbers in play.

I understand that, depending on the DC, a character with +0 or even a negative in a given save or attack bonus can still have a chance to succeed. This doesn't change the fact that PCs still start at 0 in their saves and attack/defense bonuses, as opposed to some baseline "average" for a given PL (or from "Normalcy" as they do in HERO). The archetype characters, even though they are all PL10, have saves and attack bonuses all over the place.

This is sort of a paradigm shift from straight d20 and HERO, ergo, I found it takes getting used to. That the M&M rules don't really discuss this at all isn't much help, either.


Originally posted by tesuji
Against a SMG shot... SNIP The system is balanced to make those +0s not nothing.

But is that +0 Damage save character balanced against other characters of his PL? Based on the archetype characters, most of whom seem to have some main attack at +10, I would think not. Is it assumed that PCs should have some combination of defenses that add up to the their PL? Is some lesser amount "balanced" for his PL? This is what I'm curious about.


Originally posted by tesuji
By contrast, a hero in hero who has not improved his combat stats and has just the basic normal guy PD, ED stun body etc you arevery happy to cling to has no chance of being disabled (max of 7 body damage vs 8 body) but more than a 25% chance of being con stunned.

The simple existence of a "basic normal guy" range is exactly what I'm saying makes more sense to me. It's a baseline to work from.

I also don't know where you're getting these numbers. Are we still talking SMGs here? Half of the SMGs in the HERO5e book can do 2d6-1 with +1 STUN multipliers, which are bigger numbers than you're talking about.


Originally posted by tesuji
Its not a class system, so therefore there are no built in progressions. If you build a character with weak saves, you have a character with weak saves. If you build a character with weak attack rolls, yopu get a character wuth weak attack rolls.

you get what you build. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I gotta admit it seems odd for someone as much a herophile as you seem to be complaining about getting what you build.

I'm not complaining about getting what you build, so stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm saying that HERO provdes me with a baseline, as well as guidelines for what stats are considered "within range" for a given power level. With M&M, I have to go off the archetype characters, who seem to be kind of all over the place, stats-wise.

Now, if that *is* the norm (i.e., in M&M you simply can have characters with wildly varying abiities within the same PL), then okay. This just didn't seem readily apparent, and it's very "un-d20."


Originally posted by tesuji
Does saving points by using a framework have a benefit just like it does in hero with ECs and multipowers? Sure.

Is it unworkable to avoid such in MnM? no.

no more than in hero.

Well, 10 out of the 12 archetypes are built this way, not to mention the sample villains, so it seems like the tendency is to use the "framework" to build effective characters. Avoiding it seems to be a lot less cost-effective, moreso, IMHO, than in HERO.


Originally posted by tesuji
MnM mechanics and chargen premises are much easier to grasp and understand than in hero.

Well, I respectfully disagree on that point. I think M&M is a lot trickier than it first appears.


Originally posted by tesuji
hero makes attacks other than the basic "bash stun thru defenses until they drop" variety basically unfeasible in most normal working play. You are much more effective going for the normal bash-em-til-they-drop.

I don't see how anyone who's actually played HERO would think this. You're veering into irrational rpg-bashing here.


Originally posted by tesuji
people who walk into mnm like they do in hero and build pcs with damage save and force field and such and such will probably find a rude awakening when a mental blast rocks their world.

"what do you mean ego attacks can really hurt me in this game?"

There's nothing precluding a Champions character from being a mentalist. This is another irrational, baseless claim.


Originally posted by tesuji
the games were not built to be identical. In MnM its better to design your pcs with a high stat or super stat when you want to reflect a high level of aptitude in multiple skills. Similar options exist in hero.

I know this, as it's addressed in the M&M FAQ under the question "Why are skills so expensive?", along with the now-"official" option of using the 1:3 skill cost ratio. Obviously, enough people had the same issue I do.

I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm saying that the route to get there is a bit more obvious in HERO. You want a highly-skilled characer? You buy skills.


Originally posted by tesuji
In Mnm, to have enough medical skill to stabilize a dying individual under normal conditions you need to spend 5 cp to make a take-10 15 check. Thats about 3% of your typical 150 cp.

In hero, under the same "no penalty" circumstances, you need to spend 11 cp or about 3% of your 350.

Sort of. The 11cp will get you a 15- in Paramedic, which is considered "Very Skilled." I.e., a 95% chance of success, even in a situation that woulnd't allow "taking 10" as it were.

Comparing that to a d20 character with 5 ranks and is Taking 10, then the HERO equivalent would add bonuses for moving down the Time Chart, and possibly for the action being Easy or Routine, which means we're talking about anywhere from a +1 to +5 on the roll. Ergo, you could spend less than 11cp to be equally completent. A more accurate comparison would be a 11- or 12-, which will cost maybe 3-5cp per skill for Normal INT. That's a 62%-74% chance of success, roughly equivalent to the 50% a d20 character with 5 ranks would have in a DC15 situation where they could not take 10.

I suppose it's six-of-one, half-dozen-of-the-other. HERO just seems to make it more viable, imho.


Originally posted by tesuji
The guidance would be "looik at the characters and sample power" or something akin.

Well, to me, that's not a whole heck of a lot of guidance. I guess I'm looking for more than the designers just handing me a sample character and telling me to figure it out for myself.


Originally posted by tesuji
If people build character "like in hero" and ignore things like mental attacks and such because hero taught them these other attacks are pound-forpound too expensive to be as threatening as bash-em-til-they-drop, then they are in for a rude awakening in MnM.

I still don't know where you're getting this idea that you can't build mentalists in HERO. Half the PCs in my HERO campaign are mentalists or mages of some kind. If, as you claim, nobody who uses HERO ever thinks of mental defenses, I'd think that would make mentalist PCs unbelievably effective. What the heck is your point?


Originally posted by tesuji
I find it rather plreasing that the system which according to you "relies on them" has them and the system which doesn't need them doesn't have them.

its almost like the guys who did MnM put those in for areason.

wierd, huh?

nope.

which is precisely what was intended.

So now you're admitting that HERO doesn't need a Hero Point mechanic? And that M&M does?

The issue was simply that, rather than being a cool fringe benefit that lets you do cool stuff, the Hero Points seem necessary just to keep your PC from being wiped out.

But, I'll see how things go once I've played the game more, Like I stated originally, this is just my impression after some chargen and one session of play.


Originally posted by tesuji
i haver no earthly notion of what level or extent of information would be sifficient to bring you up to speed on MnM balance.

it could be as simple as "this isn't hero so dont expect it to work that way" or it could be pages upon pages.

its as simple as a d20 roll and odds.

I have no idea why you need to cop such an offensive, condescending attitude when talking about a role-playing game.

I'm not trying to prove that M&M sucks or anything; I don't understand why you seem to be assuming this in your stance. I bought the game, after all, am participating in a campaign, and I'm a big fan of d20 and GR in particular.

My experience with the game is simply that I would have liked some more guidance about *implementing* the system and balance. The M&M book spends maybe half a page on this. The simple fact that the issues I'm discussing come up on the GR forums and in the M&M FAQ would imply that I am not alone in this regard.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
HERO is complicated, but not as complicated as it appears on first glance.

M&M is simple, but not as simple as it appears on first glance.

Could not have said it better. :cool:

[buzz]

Originally posted by arcady
Few of these things start at zero, if they did when you ran it, I can see why your results were so problematic.

Well, they're at zero until you either by up their related ability scores or purchase Amazing Save. Compared to other d20 games where 10th-level PCs will have one or two saves at +7 and one or two saves at +3 "for free," this struck me as kind of weird.

Granted, since all M&M characters are in the same boat, this may not matter at all.


Originally posted by arcady
The total bonus from all powers to any one situation, thing, or whatever cannot be more than your Power Level. That's even easier to understand than '50 active points'.

I disagree. The simple fact that power stacking had to be clarified in the FAQ seems to imply that not everyone "got it" immediately. That Amazing Save(Damage) and Protection stacked confused everyone at the table during our first session. And the fact that I violated that didn't help me in combat at all. :)


Originally posted by arcady
Tactical movement and sprinting non tactical movement can throw you when you first see them. But Hero has the same thing: You have your inches of movement, and then your non combat movement multiple.

True. Looking over Kinetic's stats, even he isn't going more than 50mph if he does nothing but run full-out during combat.


Originally posted by arcady
Possibly... It is -very- different from d20, and yet still familiar as OGL, so it can throw people's expectations and strategies.

Understood. If only tesuji could have conveyed this as rationally and politely. :rolleyes:

[Nato]

I really can't understand why people get into such arguments over which system is better than another, especially at such length. I guess usually one person sees anothers comments to be innacurate and perhaps reads that as a slight to the system and thus feels the need to correct them and defend their system. I wish everyone would try a game that they think sounds fun, and then continue playing that game if they find that it is entertaining. That's all this is about.

I'm a HUGE Hero fan. It was the only game I owned and ran since high school. But man, I heard alot of people were having fun playing M&M and I heard that it had some great artwork in it so I eagerly picked it up. Haven't played it yet, but am looking forward to giving it a try.

I do agree with earlier comments that the text could have been more explicit in some areas. The intro felt very short, and there wasn't much talk about the genre. I always find that stuff helpful and enjoyable to read. Some of the other things buzz mentioned do seem like they could have more explanation offered. Maybe I'm spoiled by FRED, which is unuasually large for a core rulebook. At least M&M has a helpful message board like this one and that there is now a FAQ put out.

[Victim]

If most of your powers have a flaw, then using a custom constructed "framework" doesn't really save you any points.

I think M&M has a problem in that the device flaw doesn't reflect how often the character will have the device, how easy it is to take away, etc. My power armor guy had lots of power stunts attached to his armor, which he'd rarely adventure without. I had 3 extra attack modes for my EB and most of the ranged attack feats for 1 point each. By using Stun missiles, Obscure that didn't block all my senses, and my other weapons, my power armor guy, Reciprocity, almost took out an entire team of enemies PL 10 foes with a PL 12 leader.

Melee attacks are nasty too, especially when using Ram attacks. It's like a move through, but with no drawbacks because Protection, FF, or Armor will completely negate the self inflicted damage in most cases. With 20 STR, Superspeed with Mach 1 punch, and some form of protection (or super strength+flight), getting over +20 damage is no problem. Characters not using melee attacks can't approach that damage potential.

The system could've used some more playtesting in my opinion.

However, character creation is much easier than in hero. Within a day of receiving the book, my brother and I had no problems creating characters in less than 30 min, and with fewer rules problems than my first hero characters.

While I think hero supports more detailed character generation, M&M characters are much easier to create. I think I might rather play hero, but even I could GM mm.

[Nato]

By the way, I DO appreciate constructive discussion of game mechanics of any system. I just hate it when they sometimes devolve into arguments over whose favorite system is better.

[Storn]

Hero Points.

I've run three eps of M&M and have played in two. It is my OPINION (only) that Hero Points are NOT a design cover-up in M&M, but a well-thought out, integrated tactical, strategic, comic-genre supporting part of M&M combat.

Hero pts aren't there to cover up flaws in the system. They are there to make combat exciting and force players (and GMs) to make choices about when to spend their Hero Points. They are also a mechanic to allow for cool, "on the fly" clever uses of Powers. A mechanic that only has just been sorta reproduced by FRED's Power Skill. But SAS and 4th Ed Champs does not have at ALL. To me, comic book simulation is ALL about the clever use of skill, powers and luck. Being constrained into one narrow power is one of Champions problems (IMO).

{example: My Champs EB has Armor Pierce... sfx: Napalm, eats away at stuff. I can't use it to do an explosion.. ala Jonny Storm UNLESS I have the power built, the xp spent. In M&M, I can have something very similar in a EB and do either Extra Effort (and then spend a Hero Pt to assuage Fatigue)...and for one round, my Napalm blast becomes an area effect. To me, that reflects comics more than rigid Champions powers structures.}

Hero pts can also be used in a very Feng Shui manner. need that skylight to dive through? Spend a Hero Point, its there. It gives the players a bit of control on the dramatic editing in the storytelling. In a group like mine, that is wonderful!!!

So, they are not "flaws" in the game system, nor are they a crutch. We have a house rule for our Champions game based on Deadlands "chips" that is very similar to Hero Pts.

For the record, I play and love both games. I love playing hero. But I prefer GMing M&M.

[Law Dog]

Storn's point is very valid. I've said it before, Champions biggest asset (the mechanics) at times acts contrary to the spirit of the genre we are trying to simulate. I hate being hamstrung as a GM or a player to jump a die roll in a genre where the fantastic is commonplace.

[tesuji]

I really am at a loss to respond to some of your concerns.

It really doesn't bother me that the system does not force you to buy up from a +0 bonus if you chose not to. It doesn't bother me that it isn't built in as part of a class. It doesn't trouble me to figure out what a +0 means against a DC 20 when assessing a character.

So all in all, i cannot help you there other than to suggest that these things might work themselves out in your mind with a little more experience?


Originally posted by buzz

But is that +0 Damage save character balanced against other characters of his PL? Based on the archetype characters, most of whom seem to have some main attack at +10, I would think not. Is it assumed that PCs should have some combination of defenses that add up to the their PL? Is some lesser amount "balanced" for his PL? This is what I'm curious about.

You seem to be looking for some "how to make a character" thing. The examples provided in the book are there for that purpose. However, the best source for "expectations" is your Gm because he knows what the typical attacks and defenses are for your games.

I confess though, i find it baffling that an experienced gamer in a system such as hero is actually asking "do i need to buy more than +0" in regards things like defenses for superheroes.

It seems more like an exaggerated ignorance to create a point of contention.

no one in my group asked" is 0 enough defense?" and i would have laughed at them if they had.

Did you build HERo supers with no defenses and expect them to stand up to attacks?

Somehow i doubt it.


Originally posted by buzz

The simple existence of a "basic normal guy" range is exactly what I'm saying makes more sense to me. It's a baseline to work from.

MnM provided several normal guy write ups including things like

Originally posted by buzz

I also don't know where you're getting these numbers. Are we still talking SMGs here? Half of the SMGs in the HERO5e book can do 2d6-1 with +1 STUN multipliers, which are bigger numbers than you're talking about.

Half the SMGs including the ubiquitous UZI do 1d6+1. Even at 2d6-1 the odds of doing "lethal" body is only 1 in 6 on a hit.

Mnm does in fact provide a wider range of damage rssults for supers AND make normals much more susceptable to damage effects than hero.

Where we disagree is whether this is good.

If you like a DND feel where you dont get serious until your stun is lowered by several successive hits... then HERo works better.

If you believe that comparable attack vs defense should include frequent risk of stunning and even KOing, so that you really dont want to ever just "take a hit" from comparable attacks (hero poiint exception for rare circumstances) then MNM is probably a better model for damage.

Originally posted by buzz

I'm saying that HERO provdes me with a baseline, as well as guidelines for what stats are considered "within range" for a given power level. With M&M, I have to go off the archetype characters, who seem to be kind of all over the place, stats-wise.

In my experience, superheroes are all over the place.

Originally posted by buzz

Now, if that *is* the norm (i.e., in M&M you simply can have characters with wildly varying abiities within the same PL), then okay. This just didn't seem readily apparent, and it's very "un-d20."

Mnm is not d20. i would expect a classless non-d20 system to produce results different than d20 classed systems.

If you didn't...

Originally posted by buzz

Well, 10 out of the 12 archetypes are built this way, not to mention the sample villains, so it seems like the tendency is to use the "framework" to build effective characters. Avoiding it seems to be a lot less cost-effective, moreso, IMHO, than in HERO.

Most of the characters i have seen use it to some degree... then again many of the hero character use multipower or ecs.

In both system you can build effective characters either way.

I really do not get this issue or why it bothers you.

Originally posted by buzz

Well, I respectfully disagree on that point. I think M&M is a lot trickier than it first appears.

I agre it is more complex. I liken it to go... a half hour to learn, a lot longer to learn well.

Originally posted by buzz

I don't see how anyone who's actually played HERO would think this. You're veering into irrational rpg-bashing here.

I have played hero since early 80s using 3rd, 4th and 5th. I have Gmed it easily twice as much as any other system through... something like six different hero campaigns and three-four fantasy hero campaigns.

This is speaking from experience.

I will simply tackle this with the ego attack thing...

At base hero levels as defined in CHAMPIONS and which are relatively on par with most of my experience...

A typical attack is about 60 ap or 12dc which means you are looking at a 12d6 Eb or a 6d6 Ego attack. various aspects within the rules, particularly frameworks and multipowers make keeping attacks at relatively the same Ap most common.

The defenses listed are about 20 for say PD.ED.

In hero thusly if i buy the normal superhero defenses i take 22 stun from the EB.

If i bought NO mental defense at all i take 21 stun AVERAGE from the mental attack.

So there was no reason to spend for mental defense since its the same basic threat as a normal attack even without defenses.

Obviously i will get attacked. Obviously i needed to spend on PD/ED. Once that is done, there is little reason to worry about the mental one.

But if i do want to, i have several options...

I can spend 1/10th the price of the attack and get protection enough to cut the attack by about 40%. At this point, the attack does so much less damage than a typical Eb that it is not worth worrying about. My bash-em will get the job done a lot more quickly.

Also, a much better option to defend against the attack is to not spend those points there but to spend them on strength or stun itself. This way the stun works against any number of attack types. My brick by dint of buying extra strength gets more stun and more recovery and thus the ego attack damage is even more insignificant.. more muscle = less fear of ego damage.

Similar ratios of effect vs defense are seen with adjustment powers and even area effect powers.

Many a hero in CHAMPIONs can get by just fine with no attention paid to mental attacks or adjustment attacks and most have nothing to fear from area attacks.

if you dont believe me...

look at the provided characters and see how many have paid points for these defenses... how many rely on area attacks as their primary offense... etc.

This is an obvious and intentional part of the system design and is reflected in their characters.

Can a character be created ignoring AP limits, ignoring or redefining Dc limits, so that he has an area effect attack people have to pay attention to or an ego blast thats a serious threat... sure but it costs a whole lot more and when PCs are under significant power point constraints it is an issue. Even then, if the same leeway was given to a simple EB... it would be the better buy.

If you are experienced with HERo, you already know this.

If you are inexperienced with HERo, look at the sample characters.

By contrast, against a normal level mental attack in MnM a guy with no increased ego and no purchased ego save will get the following result... 5% chance of a ding, 25% chance of being stunned and 70% chance of KO. No amount of super strength or super-stamina will do a thing against this. "Stronger" does not equate to "able to withstand mental assault" in MnM like it does in HERO.

hence my observation about the increased threat of these alternative attacks in MNM.

Originally posted by buzz

I know this, as it's addressed in the M&M FAQ under the question "Why are skills so expensive?", along with the now-"official" option of using the 1:3 skill cost ratio. Obviously, enough people had the same issue I do.

They had presented one campaign design and when asked provided optional rules for skills cost for those who wanted different scales.

Exactly how many alternative skills cost options have been presented in HERO. AFAIK there is just the one. Can you point me to the optional skill costs sections in hero?

I don't consider providing options for different campaign needs to be a sign of weakness.

Originally posted by buzz

I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm saying that the route to get there is a bit more obvious in HERO. You want a highly-skilled characer? You buy skills.

And at some point it becomes inefficient to keep buying more skills and better to buy more characteristics or more skill levels. In HERo that level is 3 skills for skill level and 5 skills of a given type for characteristics (depending on the characteristic.) This of course ignores all the other benefits.

In MNM, the break point seems to be at about 2 skills before the "just buy skills" approach is better off in terms of points being done by other means.

if the diff between 2 and 3 skills beinmg the break point is that big of an issue for you, then probably hero is a better fit.

Originally posted by buzz

Sort of. The 11cp will get you a 15- in Paramedic, which is considered "Very Skilled." I.e., a 95% chance of success, even in a situation that woulnd't allow "taking 10" as it were.

Actually here we may have just a difference of assessment.

For treating of wounds, i consider "normal circumstances" to be those which would be a take-10 situation. I would consider hostile circumstances such as "under fire" where you are using your DCV for instance to fall under the unfavorable conditions listed at the beginning of the skills chapter for skill modifiers to circumstances.

if you don't apply those modifiers, and i have seen many HERO Gms who simply ignore those modifiers and say "just roll" then i would say thats the difference between our games.

Originally posted by buzz

Comparing that to a d20 character with 5 ranks and is Taking 10, then the HERO equivalent would add bonuses for moving down the Time Chart, and possibly for the action being Easy or Routine, which means we're talking about anywhere from a +1 to +5 on the roll.


Again we appear to have thoroughly different assessments of the paramedic roll in hero. You seem to be assuming it presumes under fire and so that not being under fire gives you skill modifier bonuses. I am assuming it does not assume under fire or full dcv to use.

I do not recall the specific action defined for the paramedic roll, but it should be onbvious that much in the way of extra time bonuses is going to risk death... since the character is getting worse by the 12 seconds.

Of course, with hero being so much netter defined with its much bigger rulebook this issue should be clear, right? Does it state whether paramedic assumes under fire as its norm?


Originally posted by buzz

Ergo, you could spend less than 11cp to be equally completent. A more accurate comparison would be a 11- or 12-, which will cost maybe 3-5cp per skill for Normal INT. That's a 62%-74% chance of success, roughly equivalent to the 50% a d20 character with 5 ranks would have in a DC15 situation where they could not take 10.

Again, the presumption you are making is that paramedic skill use is presumed at "under fire" and such. I recall it differently but my basic recollection is that this type of thing was not defined but left up to the GM in HERo.

book not in front of me to look up the obvious clarification that exists in HERO.

My dim recollection is that HERo actually listed things like getting treatment in a hospital as being worth bonuses, or somesuch, which might be why i did not consider "not under fire" as the bonus level for treatment.


Originally posted by buzz

I suppose it's six-of-one, half-dozen-of-the-other. HERO just seems to make it more viable, imho.

Actually, it seems like hero does not necessarily clearly define its baseline there at all. Is there a clarification which says that "not under fire" or such is worth bonuses?

MnM is clear... on when you can take 10 and when you cannot.

Originally posted by buzz

I still don't know where you're getting this idea that you can't build mentalists in HERO.

I never said that. That is your invention. As for my comments on alternative attacks and their effectiveness, see above.

Originally posted by buzz

So now you're admitting that HERO doesn't need a Hero Point mechanic? And that M&M does?

Uhh.. yes. HERO handles it by effectively rewmoving the damage extremes until you have been battered down... ala DND... no effect until your HP runs out.

MnM allows a much broader range of attack results with a built in mechanic that can offset some of the worst. They also enable that same LIMITED USE mechanic to give you wider ranges of abilities and "special circumstance" sort of tricks, thus making its use a very tough choice.

I see that option as much more in keeping with comics than its utter lack.

Originally posted by buzz

The issue was simply that, rather than being a cool fringe benefit that lets you do cool stuff, the Hero Points seem necessary just to keep your PC from being wiped out.

necessary? nope. Useful in that regard, yes. Its a tough choice. the "baseline" expectation is that you will have about a 25% chance of a KO result on even ground. In my experience it varies from 10% to about 40$ depending on the dynamic differences.

It is however a planned and expected aspect of the system.

A player can save all his hero points for countering bad damage save rolls or he can use them all for neat additional abilities or he can do any or all in between those two extremes. it makes performance very much dependent on personality and choice...

I suppose they could have made the chart broader and moved Ko to a nigh impossible result and stunned down to extremely unlikely, but thats less choice, less breadth, more like hero.

I dont think they wanted to rebuild hero.


Originally posted by buzz

But, I'll see how things go once I've played the game more, Like I stated originally, this is just my impression after some chargen and one session of play.

If you give it time and gradually lose you "expect it to be like hero" (cuz its not) and "expect it to be like classed D20" (cuz it is neither of those) then i would suspect you will find a different opinion.

I could be wrong, since there will still be that "is zero enough for supers" thingy that i still dont get at all.

[buzz]

I'm not going to continue to address you point-by-point, as you did a great job of answering my real questions over on the M&M boards. Here, however, this thread seems to have deterioriated, despite your making some interesting comments.

One point, though:


Originally posted by tesuji
Actually, it seems like hero does not necessarily clearly define its baseline there at all. Is there a clarification which says that "not under fire" or such is worth bonuses?

MnM is clear... on when you can take 10 and when you cannot.

Take 10 exists in d20 games because they use a flat distribution. Wihtout the Take 10/20 rules, skill and ability checks become too random, especially at low levels/ranks. d20 games depend on take 10/20 to function properly (which is not a criticism; the Take 10/20 rules are a brilliant idea, imho).

HERO doesn't need this because the 3d6 roll is curved. You can look at a PCs skill and know exactly what their chance of success is w/o modifiers. The rules are also clear about modifying the roll for degree of difficulty and available time.

Taking 10 doesn't involve more time, it simply is a freebie "average roll" you can claim when not threatened or distracted. HERO has an "average roll" built into the die curve, so it doesn't need such a mechanic. Taking 20 is basically the same as moving down the Time Chart, since it does literally mean taking one's time.

[zornwil]

I've joined the contingent of those interested in M&M and picked it up a week or so ago. Have been busy and am at this point only just into the combat section. So this thread is pretty interesting. My own initial thoughts are:

- I like the power creation method in terms of its flexibility and I think it addresses comic book power changes in a way that HERO does not, in many ways better for my tastes; I see an advantage in its flexbility but...

- given that there's a lot of "on the fly" governance of what a power ought to be able to do, this certainly can be a disadvantage if expectations among GM and players aren't matching; while much of this just comes down to good GMing and I feel fortunate that my group is mature and we won't have any serious issues with it, i could see some frustration when things don't go as expected, will just have to see

- I'm not comfortable with the degree to which many elements rely on a character's "Power Level", but I readily admit it's based on years of HERO gaming; the concern I have is that characters with more points get even more bonuses so their points advantage becomes even greater than appearance over lesser characters, although I can also see how that may just be an adjustment that offsets the cost of other things - jury is out for me in terms of how game balance works in general and this is part of that

- I can't figure out which optional rules I should really use, but will see based on feedback and when I sit down and actually do some statistical analysis

- I must admit that I do really like how the book looks art-wise and inspiration-wise, while I tend to pooh-pooh this and have said so in the past on these boards, I did find that I was actually interested in the sample characters whereas that has never been true with Champions/HERO; in fact I will seriously consider buying M&M campaign/setting source material whereas I generally do not with any other system (not just HERO), the M&M "look and feel" is just that good. In fact someone mentioned that they wish there had been more genre-specific bits in the book. To me the comic panels inside the book fulfilled that role, though of course only implicitly.

- I am not all the way through combat and will come back to this thread as I get further into the book; however, combat doesn't seem that much simpler than in HERO and it seems there's optional ways to minimize one-punch combat, if that is what one wants, as I do; still I'm not sure quite how to create combat balance among characters as there's several optional rules and the interaction of them is unclear. I'll see what i get back from a posting I put on the Green Ronin board.

- it reminds me of early Champions in its more general approach (broader skills, broader powers) and roughness around the edges and from what I can see on the GR board about some immediate "fixes" made

- I think I like the "effects" and "extras" concepts and the way they deal with expansive powers better than ECs or VPPs, it just seems cleaner to me; OTOH MPs in HERO seem cleaner than the ways to deal with such things in M&M, although given the very different power construction methods it's hard to make either comparison as it's not apples-to-apples.

Overall, I'm anxious to "playtest" M&M, it'll be a challenge as it's been forever since I've run a different system. I see as much potential to handle things more elegantly than in HERO as I do potential for things to be disappointing compared to HERO. Because many of the PCs have pretty expansive and interesting powers, I am very tempted to run one of my regular games that has been HERO using M&M instead, redrafting the characters with the players, and seeing how it works. I think for some characters it might be more elegant. However, I know sometimes it's worse to try to make something done in one system fit another instead of just starting fresh.

Any/all feedback is welcome.

[Storn]

>>>- I am not all the way through combat and will come back to this thread as I get further into the book; however, combat doesn't seem that much simpler than in HERO and it seems there's optional ways to minimize one-punch combat, if that is what one wants, as I do; still I'm not sure quite how to create combat balance among characters as there's several optional rules and the interaction of them is unclear. I'll see what i get back from a posting I put on the Green Ronin board.
<<<

There is not really a one punch shot in MM, really, unless the GM deems it so to an NPC.

Because as long as you have Hero Pts, you can spend one to re-roll any roll. So, yes, you can get 1 punched by rolling badly on a Damage Save. Spend a Hero pt and re-roll. at the worst, you end up with a 10 (+the Save), which might get you a bit hurt, but will probably save you from being taken out of the combat entirely.

And if you are out of Hero Pts, it is probably because you've been punched at or shot at many times. And therefore, the combat is not a One Punch combat.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by buzz

Take 10 exists in d20 games because they use a flat distribution. Wihtout the Take 10/20 rules, skill and ability checks become too random, especially at low levels/ranks. d20 games depend on take 10/20 to function properly (which is not a criticism; the Take 10/20 rules are a brilliant idea, imho).

IMX d20 checks at low levels of ability are no more random than HERO low levels are because of the dice involved. The dice just determine the range of values. The randomness is determined by the results assigned by the game system to those values.

All a bell curve does is produce disproportionate levels of probability per modifier... a +1 might be 5% or it might be 12.5%.

BTW, probabalistically, 3d6 is very similar to a d10+5 with 80% of its results falling in an 8 value range and a typical +2 modifier averaging out around a +20% average within that 80 percentile. Its really less specific than a d20 and less obvious or metered than a d10+5.

I know what +1 means and does in d20 when i assign it as a modifier. I don't know what a +1 does in HERO... it might be +12.5% or it might be a whole lot less.

If this makes 3d6 a PLUS for you, its yet another thing we differ on.



Originally posted by buzz

HERO doesn't need this because the 3d6 roll is curved. You can look at a PCs skill and know exactly what their chance of success is w/o modifiers. The rules are also clear about modifying the roll for degree of difficulty and available time.

Ok just as a point of order... if you understand that +1 = 5% you can look at a DC and a skill in d20 and know what the chances are.

My bet is that more people can as quickly or better r4ecall the probability rations for a d20 than they can for a 3d6 roll.

The difference in a d20 and a 3d6 has nothing to do with randomness of outcomes, that is determined SOLEY by the success ranges the system then assigns.

The difference is with a bell curve you do not have a consistent measure for what a static modifier means. A +1 might be 5% better or it may be 12% better depending on your level of skill with no linear mapping.

Originally posted by buzz

Taking 10 doesn't involve more time, it simply is a freebie "average roll" you can claim when not threatened or distracted. HERO has an "average roll" built into the die curve, so it doesn't need such a mechanic.

Sigh... 67% likely is just as random with 3d6 as it is with one d20. there is no difference in randomness between 50% likely in hero or 50% likely in d20.

All you have in hero are variable levels of importance given to identical modifiers.

that does not make it easier to deal with the probabilities, only harder.

For the record, i never said anything about time for taking 10. i emphasized the conditions.

you equated taking extra time in HERO with taking 10 in d20.

"Comparing that to a d20 character with 5 ranks and is Taking 10, then the HERO equivalent would add bonuses for moving down the Time Chart,"

IMO, btw, hero does need a "average result" rule... for skills.

More over, to cite rules examples, for even attack powers where you have the much more many dice bell curved results, they DO have an average result rule.



Originally posted by buzz

Taking 20 is basically the same as moving down the Time Chart, since it does literally mean taking one's time.


yup.

Now back to the question I asked, can you point me to the section in HERo which defines the default condition for paramedic checks as being the "under fire" so that your presumption of take 10 situations equating to "favorable skill bonuses" is supported?

Or do you agree that HERO unlike MnM fails to clarify this basic element?

[buzz]

Originally posted by tesuji
IMX d20 checks at low levels of ability are no more random than HERO low levels are.

All a bell curve does is produce disproportionate levels of probability per quantum... a +1 might be 5% or it might be 12.5%.

Ok just as a point of order... if you understand that +1 = 5% you can look at a DC and a skill in d20 and know what the chances are.

My bet is that more people can as quickly or better r4ecall the probability rations for a d20 than they can for a 3d6 roll.

I'm not trying to claim that bell-curve systems are superior. Actually, I'm normally on the other side of that argument, being a d20 fan.

However, the simple fact is that Take 10/20 is necessary in d20 games, particularly when a PC has low bonuses in a skill; wihtout the rule, the die roll outweights any skill the character posseses. I play in two d20 groups, and I've seen this in action. It's a simple fact.

And yes, I know that +1 = 5%. But you can't just look at a d20 character sheet and have any idea about a PC's ability to perform a task. As you say, you need to know the DC as well. Sure, you can guesstimate based on typical DCs, but that's less obvious.

With a curved roll, I know that I'll roll 11 and under more ofthen than not. So, when I see that a HERO PC has a 15- in a skill, I know immediately that they're going to succeed most of the time.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that Take 10/20 is part-and-parcel of d20 games. It's not providing something that games like HERO lack. It's there to make checks less random; you're not rolling, ergo, it's less random.


Originally posted by tesuji
Now back to the question I asked, can you point me to the section in HERo which defines the default condition for paramedic checks as being the "under fire" so that your presumption of take 10 situations equating to "favorable skill bonuses" is supported?

Or do you agree that HERO unlike MnM fails to clarify this basic element?

The HERO rules state *explicitly* that if a character is under no pressure and has ample time to perform an ordinary task, *they don't have to bother to roll*. This is on the first page in the Skill chapter in FREd. FREd also gives explicit definitions as to what levels of skill constitute "average" or "masterful" ability.

In your example, you were saying that a d20 PC with a +5 bonus in a skill was equivalent to a HERO PC with a 15-. This is totally wrong. +5 is well within the reach of a 1st-level d20 PC. 15- is the upper limit for superheroic HERO campaigns, and is considered "master" level. Comparing that to a moderate-to-average DC15 where the PC can Take 10 is ludicrous.

Like I said, that M&M tells you which skills allow Take 10 isn't an advantage; it's a necessary part of the system.

[tesuji]

Quickly, once again we come to somehow a rule mechnic being designed for and as a part of the game..."necessary" in some how being tossed as if that is a negative.

Second, you are indeed correct. in d20 knowing the skill level is NOT sufficient to gauge the odds of success... you also have to know the difficulty of the task.

If instead in HERo you are saying that somehow the notion of the difficulty of the task has been removed and that all you need to know is the skill level, then i would say you are describing a less accurate system.

Fortunately , we both know that hero also has difficulty of task taken into account only its DC is expressed as a modifier to the rolls chance of success.

So, given we both know that both systems use a skill level and a value that assess the difficulty of the task, what in the name of mordadin's left *** was your point?

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by buzz

The HERO rules state *explicitly* that if a character is under no pressure and has ample time to perform an ordinary task, *they don't have to bother to roll*. This is on the first page in the Skill chapter in FREd.

Thats true but there are some problems with assuming that means the default presumption for each skills is "under combat" or as i put it being shot at.

First, with a typical hero going from dead to dying in under 120 seconds, the notion that you have ample time to stop that process is a bit on the dubious side.

Second, on page 28 we have the skill modifier of using skill in combat thats not normally a combat skill defined as a 1-3 penalty to the check.

So, clearly for some skills, the notion of being shot at while performing the skill, or in short, using the skill in combat, is NOT presumed.

Thus we are back to... is paramedic using skill to stop bleeding a combat use default skill or not?

If it is, then you are correct that being out of combat would probably reduce the skill roll difficulty. The take 10 comparison should take this into account.

If it is not, the we have the reverse and out of combat is the plain jane difficulty and in combat would apply the penalty. Then the comparison of take-10 to a regualr success roll would be applicable.

In either case, taking extra time would be possibly equitable with the take-20 option, not the take -10 as you originally ascribed it to.

Now, in d20, I know when i can and cannot take 10.

In HERo do you know whether paramedic is a combat default or non-combat default skill? If so, show me where?




Originally posted by buzz


In your example, you were saying that a d20 PC with a +5 bonus in a skill was equivalent to a HERO PC with a 15-. This is totally wrong. +5 is well within the reach of a 1st-level d20 PC. 15- is the upper limit for superheroic HERO campaigns, and is considered "master" level. Comparing that to a moderate-to-average DC15 where the PC can Take 10 is ludicrous.

Like I said, that M&M tells you which skills allow Take 10 isn't an advantage; it's a necessary part of the system.


Its a beneficial part of the system. planned for and accomdated within it.

[buzz]

Originally posted by tesuji
In HERo do you know whether paramedic is a combat default or non-combat default skill? If so, show me where?

The same place as I mentioned before. P. 26, the first page of the skills chapter. If you're in combat, you roll. This "combat default" stuff is purely your own invention. When you're in combat, you roll, just like in d20 games.

Equating Taking 10 with having extra time was an error on my part, though I was right is saying that an equivalent situation (no stress, not threatened) has similar effects in HERO: the p.26 reference, i.e., not having to roll at all. Nonetheless, it still shows that your equating a +5 in d20 to a 15- in HERO is erroneous. Within the context of each system, the latter represents a lot more skill than the former. Ergo, making skilled characters is more cost-effective in HERO. That Steve Kenson has stated flat-out in the M&M FAQ that skills are expensive in M&M seems to make this a no-brainer.

(Again, none of this is an attempt to "prove" M&M is somehow infreior, no matter how much you want to paint it that way.)

[tesuji]

Originally posted by buzz
The same place as I mentioned before. P. 26, the first page of the skills chapter. If you're in combat, you roll. This "combat default" stuff is purely your own invention. When you're in combat, you roll, just like in d20 games.


I got that a while back.

Keep up.

The combat default is in regarss to the skill roll penalty on page 28 which says specifically... combat conditions, for skills not normally used in combat.

This section provides a penalty for such skills when used in combat.

You claimed earlier that the paramedic skill would get a bonus for easy or somesuch if not used in combat.

that makes the assumption that paramedic is not one of these "not normally used in combat" skills.

(OK i am making one assumtpion and that is that you are not saying it should get a penalty in combat and a bonus for not in combat.)

Thats what i mean by combat default.

It seems clear that one of the following is true...

the paramecic skill check for stopping bleeding is supposed to ASSUME combat conditions and then provide a non-combat bonus for easy skill check... which seems to be your assumption.

or...

The paramedic skill checks presume non-combat and thus they take the penalty on page 28 when in combat and make normal rolls out of combat.

Your refutation to my skill comparison was based on two premises...

one was extra time, which you have now discarded.

the other was a bonus for not being in combat, equating easy bonuses with take 10.

Thats the one i am asking you to verify by showing me how you saw in the rules to lump paramedic into the former and not the latter.

Also, just one other question...

What is it in HERO that would prevent a "low level characyer" from buying the 15- in paramedic? You mentioned the fact that a low level guy in MnM could buy the +5 and that seemed to indicate that therefore he was not advanced enough for it to mean being good at it.

Couldn't a rookie hero have enough skill points to buy it in HERO as well?

FWIW... +4 is considered professional level in MnM.

[arcady]

Originally posted by buzz
Take 10 exists in d20 games because they use a flat distribution.
(which is not a criticism; the Take 10/20 rules are a brilliant idea, imho).

HERO doesn't need this because the 3d6 roll is curved. You can look at a PCs skill and know exactly what their chance of success is w/o modifiers. The rules are also clear about modifying the roll for degree of difficulty and available time.Take 10 does not exist to counter the flat distribution.

Take 10 and take 20 exist to answer the issue of -normal skill use-. Of people being able to routinely do routine tasks, or tasks under time.

It's there to satisy the needs of the crowd of people who feel any randomness on some skill checks is illogical, as well as to speed game play when a task check is needed in a non-climatic moment.

[buzz]

Originally posted by arcady
Take 10 and take 20 exist to answer the issue of -normal skill use-. Of people being able to routinely do routine tasks, or tasks under time.

D'oh! This is correct. Take 10/20 is one of the things that I point to when people complain to me about a lack of curves (i.e., reliability) in d20.

The bixarre thing is, when I had a discussion with some GURPS folk a while back who were bashing D&D, I was making all of the arguments you and Tesuji are now. I've been warped by my love of HERO! :)

Anyway, our M&M campaign continues, and I'll continue to familiarize myself the system. Even though things got heated at times (I'll switch to decaf if Tesuji will), I appreciate the enlightenment.

[buzz]

Originally posted by tesuji
What is it in HERO that would prevent a "low level characyer" from buying the 15- in paramedic? You mentioned the fact that a low level guy in MnM could buy the +5 and that seemed to indicate that therefore he was not advanced enough for it to mean being good at it.

FWIW... +4 is considered professional level in MnM.

I'm just adressing your claim that 5 ranks in a d20 skill si equivalent to a 15- in a HERO skill, i.e., that skills effectively cost the same for the same level of competence.

I just don't agree. 15- represents a much higher degree of skill, in practice. Ergo, the equivalent of 5 d20 ranks in HERO is less expensive. That's all.

Where does it say that +4 is considered professional in the M&M rules?

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by buzz

I'm just adressing your claim that 5 ranks in a d20 skill si equivalent to a 15- in a HERO skill, i.e., that skills effectively cost the same for the same level of competence.

My methodology was simple.

Take two sample skills that have an identical usage with clearly defined DCs.Put them in "normal use" mode for comparison sake... which meant i took them out of any penalty states so i did not use the HERO optional -1 per 2 body or the -1 to -3 for non-combat skills in combat AND i also assumed it was a take-10 situation.

I did not assume it was a take-20 or "ample time" situation because the task directly at hand has its own built in time limit... the subject is dying and we have an unknown amount of time before he dies.

Pick a general success level, in this case 95-100%.

How many points in both systems are required to reach that level of result?

The answer in both cases was "about 3% of the starting character points."

In other words, making identical assumptions for the same defined task the cost was proportional.

Your counter argument appears to be two-fold:

1. I was unfairly presenting the hero skill because i did not give it bonuses for extra time and for it being an EASY or such skill bonus in HERO to use paramedic out of combat. The first you have backed off on and the second you have not supported within the rules by showing where the paramedic skill is clearly not a skill that takes the page 28 defined "use in combat" penalty.

I still think that I did fairly present the modifiers and situations between the two skills.

2. you imply that the relative levels of skills requires to achieve success is not a good means for coming up with comparable skill levels and point to the flavor text in HERO that says that 15- is some sort of master level. Add to that your observation that a 1st level guy can get +5 as somehow indicating that +5 in MNM is some sort of novice level. Of course, i have not yet seen you respond to my observation that the 11 points cost for 15- in hero is likewise well within the points cost and available for a HERO character at practically any superheroic or even heroic level.

Of course, one has to wonder what your point about 1st level characters is doing in a discussion of supers.

To this i say that when comparing systems and things specifically like COST-EFFECT or BANG-BUCK comparisons, I care MUCH MUCH more about the actual results than i do the flavor text.

If HERO says 15- is master skill level in its flavor text but then resquires that level in order to perform a task such as stopping bleeding reliably then we may well have a skew between the flavor text and the mechanics.

However, regardless of the flavor text, when making assessments of cost-effect, what matters is the mechanics and the results.

When making similar assumptions about skill use for the same skill task using paramedics i see similar results for both skills for a similar % of the cost.

******************

Reagrding your flavor text point about hero calling the level of skill a master or somesuch and where i get professional level at +4...

If you take a sec and look up "professional" in the index for MnM you will find the reference for the various NPC writeups including one called professional.

He is shown with +4's in his various occupational skills. Similarly, looking at the various levels of skills shown for EMTs, police detectives, firefighters, etc that +4 to +5 ranks is the most commonb levels for people doing what they do professionally.There are a couple of exceptions of course, as high as a whopping +7 in 2-3 places among the various templates (but those are really +6 with attribute bonuses figured in.)

MnM tends to give more sample characters and less text rules and restrictions to show you rather than tell you about its system. Hero of course, took a different approach.


Originally posted by buzz

I just don't agree. 15- represents a much higher degree of skill, in practice. Ergo, the equivalent of 5 d20 ranks in HERO is less expensive. That's all.

The flavor text says 15- is this much higher level, as long as you somehow assume +5 is somehow a novice level of skill in MnM which the sample characters writeup for "normals" disagrees with.

But can you at least agree that when making comparison for what you get per point spent from skills, the bang for the buck, that the actual game mechanics results is a better benchmark for comparison than the flavor text?

Does it really matter whether the rulebook flavor text says that 15- is a "master" or whether or not he succeeds at the task 95% of the time?

I think the latter.

But even if i give your flavor text argument weight, your presumtpion that +5 in MnM is somehow a novice level because it is within the reach of a 1st level character is folly... it is shown in the rulebook as at least a professional level and your 15- master level is just as available to novice level guys.

A 1st level MnM character has 15 pp. IF he spend 5 on the skill... Oh wait.. HE CANNOT. He would have to be 2nd level to have +5. At that point, the 5 points reflects 17% of his total available character points.

In HERO, working off even the lowest level campaign i recall seeing mentioned for PCs, 50+50, the 11 points is only 11% of his total points. You would have to drop down as far as 25+25, which is s mighty low starting point for action heroes much less superheroes, to get the price up to about 22%.

So, even taking your assumptions, i still don't see where this "you can get +5 ranks at low levels in MnM" somehow being proof that its a novice or low proficiency level is true when in hero the ease of getting that level is just as prevalent.

*******************

But again, your argument is based on flavor text comparisons while mine is based on mechanics and results as described within the system.

I will take the latter over the former any day.

NOW, if HERo did not allow 15- to be taken at "low levels" and if they had any sort of "experienced based" requirements on skill acquisition other than "point cost" (MnM has these) to make its flavor text have some teeth... then we might actually have to really worry about flavor text.


Originally posted by buzz

Where does it say that +4 is considered professional in the M&M rules?


look up "professional" in the index. Follow the clues.

MnM provides information on the "campaign baselines" not in rules and text but rather in sample character wirteups. They provide a half-dozen or more templates for normals and you will see the most common ranges for their ranks in skill at what they do is +4 to +5. The "professional" specifically is listed as +4 MAX in a variety of skills related to his tak. There are a few cases where they go abouve +5... the reporter has a +7 as dfoes the scientist, but just a little paying of attention will reveal these are actually +6 RANKS with attribute bonuses in almost every case.

+4-6 is professional level assigned for scientists, EMTs, police detectives, and, yes, even "professionals in MnM.

The fact that it is attainable in MNM (after the first level) by relatively low level character (JUST LIKE IT IS IN HERO) is not an indication that it is a novice or low level of expertise (any more than that same aspect makes it so in HERO.)

[ShadowRaptor]

I like HERO more. 'Nuff said.

Go Av's (hockey).

[Jester]

Sheesh! I came to read this thread cos I haven't played a good RPG in years, and I was looking to get one...I thought I'd get some interesting opinions that would lead me one way or another. I was wrong.

I'm even more confused than I was before. I've read the reviews about the HERO system, and it seems great. I'm more confused as to what to buy now!

I'd like to play a super hero game. I'd like to play a sci-fi game (like in the Star Wars universe). I don't want character creation to take forever, and I don't wanna do TONS of math all the time just to get through a fight or something. On the other hand, I don't wanna be really limited in what I can do, either.

I'm thinking maybe M&M and Star Wars both or M&M and Alternity? Is Green Ronin planning on coming out with some sci-fi type of add on soon?

What do you guys think about Heroes Unlimited (or as I've heard it called "Zeros Limited")?

:confused:

[Archon]

Originally posted by Jester


What do you guys think about Heroes Unlimited (or as I've heard it called "Zeros Limited")?

:confused:

Heroes Unlimited is a Palladium game. As such, I find it's character creation section to be overly complicated. Otherwise, the basic system is somewhat similar to Hero. You have to choose powers from a list, but HU doesn't let you customize your powers in any way. You just pick what you want and keep it. Much too limitting in my opinion.

As for long character creation sections, all games take time to create a character properly. The good thing about Hero is by the time you're done, you should also have a background to go with the character. The system encourages this with the Disadvantages section.

[Jester]

Cool...Thanks.

I just can't stand all the math that seems to go along with Hero. I've never played it, so I honestly don't know how math-intensive it could be, but it seems to be rather complicated.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Jester
Cool...Thanks.

I just can't stand all the math that seems to go along with Hero. I've never played it, so I honestly don't know how math-intensive it could be, but it seems to be rather complicated.

Hero is very intimidating to look at, and while you can argue how complicated the math really is I don't think anyone will disagree that Hero character creation has alot more multiplying and dividing than most other mainstream games.

The funny thing is, once your charcters are made the game moves along about as well (and with about as much math) as any other RPG that doesn't give up detail for speed.

In my experience, in actual gaming Hero plays about as fast as D20, Palladium or Gurps. It just doesn't look like it will. (And first trys don't count, I'm talking about a gaming group that has been playing for a few weeks)

[Jester]

Well, I'm torn...

I guess it's cos I'll only have a very small group of people playing with me, whichever game I go with, and I don't wanna scare them away with complicatedness before we actually get into the game, y'know? And they're SW fans, too. I think it'd be easier to transition between SW and M&M for alternating adventures than it would to go from HERO to SW, y'know what I'm saying?

Out of curiosity, what kind of dice do you need for Hero?

[tesuji]

Its hard to gauge your experience, so this will be vague.

HERO requires and very much needs a GM who is skilled with the system. It is a very high learning curve game system that falls back on "GM discretion" in many fundamental choices.

So, if you are not familiar with either system, i would strongly and in the loudest voice urge you towards MNM as opposed to HERO. MnM is much more user friendly out of the book with a combined erratta faq that is under a dozen pages. There are still, as with any game, GM control descisions that needs to be made. It just presents a more manageable framework for the newer GM.

MnM is a role playing game. HERO is a role playing game construction kit. The latter does a lot less for you.

I would only recommend breaking into HERO by joining an existing HERO game with an experienced GM and playing for quite a while until you get the ins and outs and the roundings down. i would not want to see anyone just jump into FRED and GM right off the bat. (I myself did just that, but that was 20 some years ago with CHAMPS 2 or 3, when iirc the entire HERO line had fewer pages than fred does now.)


Originally posted by Jester
Cool...Thanks.

I just can't stand all the math that seems to go along with Hero. I've never played it, so I honestly don't know how math-intensive it could be, but it seems to be rather complicated.

[tesuji]

hero needs mounds of d6's and only d6s. at a dead minimum three are needed. Most people i know bring about 20d6s with them for hero and consider a dozen to be scraping by. I wont actually mention how many d6s i still have... other than to mention i buy them in the bricks and prefer different colors.

MnM needs one d20, though if you can afford it, two might be better..

each has its merits. The one d30 is quick and compact.

however, there is the satisfying THUD FACTOR of taking 19d6 and rolling them across a wooden table in one loud clamorous metaphor for "i got a really big... "power""

[Jester]

Okay, cool. Sounds like good advice to me! I guess as we get more experienced as a group we can start looking into the more complicated games like HERO.

Thanks again, that's exactly what I was wanting to know!:D

[fauxgemini]

Jester -

There is more to Super hero games besides HERO and MnM. Silver Age Sentinels is a good middle ground with a tight setting too. Oh, lets not forget GURPS. It can do supers too. Handles the gritty low powered stuff fine, get a little wonky on the high end. But then again HERO does indeed that the meaty feel to it. Just find a mentor, honestly. It helps.

[Jester]

Aargh! Too...many...choices!

I guess I'm looking for semi-simplicity combined with a gritty setting, which I guess you can determine yourself. Just cos the art in the book looks all happy and colorful doesn't mean you can't have the adventures have a dark and brooding tone.

How do those you mentioned stack up there?

[fauxgemini]

You sound like me. I'm a big GURPS player. IT's ultra gritty. I play loads of Batman/psion type games using that system. HERO is more for my way out there space operas.

[fauxgemini]

But then again Hero can do it too. *shrugs*

[Stormbringer]

I'm going to have to stick with M & M. Sorry guys but if I wanted to spend an hour or more using math formulas, I'd go back to high school or retake college math. As Shadow Stalker states, it's so much easier to make a character, boom I can be done in 10 minutes. I do want to try Silver Age Sentinels one of these days, it looks really cool.

[Shadow Shulker]

Stormbringer and Shadow Stalker are right. M&M is best for superheroes right after SAS. Hero is good for sci-fi and fantasy. For those that don't like other systems, fuck off.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Jester
Aargh! Too...many...choices!

I guess I'm looking for semi-simplicity combined with a gritty setting, which I guess you can determine yourself.

As someone else said, Hero is really more of a RPG construction kit than a game in and of itself. If you want supers you either need to figure it out yourself and construct the game using the Hero rules or you need to buy Champions, which is a companion to Hero 5th that basically sets up the genre for you.

If you are looking for gritty, you may want to wait for Dark Champions 5th edition, due sometime next year.

If you want to play now and don't want to devote alot of time to figuring all this out, it may be easier to go for M&M.

[Simon]

Just so everyone's aware, Stormbringer, Shadow Stalker and Shadow Shulker are all the same individual. The rather obnoxious posts (the above are downright "nice" in comparison to some on the other boards) have all been reported to Ben.

[Jester]

Okay, I'm still having a hard time deciding...here's a question for ya.

I have an idea for a hero that I'd like to "build" for a game. I'm wondering which of the 3 games he'd be the easiest (read easiest: most accurate, without the most headache in the creation process). Here goes.....

Basically, he's a guy with a very high energy field inside his body (I haven't worked out yet if it'll be just a higher-than-normal electric field or some other form of exotic energy). Because of that field, he heals extremely fast (a la Wolverine, Sabertooth, etc, etc). On his own, he basically has no attacking powers (as of yet...I'm sure his abilities will evolve and further mutate as time goes by, just like in lots of comic books) except sweet martial arts skills. He DOES have custom-made energy pistols that draw directly on the reservoir of energy in his body to use as pulse blasts. Because the field is in his body, he generally can control whether it's stun damage (like a taser or something) or concussive-type damage (if that even makes sense, I don't know). I was also thinking of having a sword for him with the hilt basically performing the same funcion as the guns so that he could charge the blade with energy, too. I was thinking of making it so that he HAS to release some of his energy, or it would kill him (if you think that's a good idea). I'm not sure if his powers would require any further limitations or anything. And I haven't figured out his background yet, either. I don't know where he got the guns, but I was thinking of a secret agent type of thing with him, maybe with it as his background, maybe with it as his current deal...I don't know...

So, will that idea work fine in Mutants and Masterminds, or just in HERO or GURPS?

[Tom McCarthy]

I don't know M&M nearly so well as I know Hero (and I know even less GURPS), but I think everything in Jester's character concept can be done in M&M if he wants to (since M&M was designed by someone aware of and respectful of the broad flexibility which is Hero's strength and most daunting characteristic).

Certainly M&M has martial arts capabilities bought as a combination of skills, feats, and powers. Having the ability to do lethal or non-lethal damage at range or in hand to hand through a device is easily done. The notion of having to release energy periodically is a neat sounding thing that should easily be defined in either of those games.

[Tom McCarthy]

I was reading Mutants & Masterminds just to see what the best features of it were, and what might fit well in my Champions campaign. I have to hand it to Steve K that his power construction rules are very nice. I might quibbe a bit about the cost of X relative to Y, but he succeeded in clearly supporting that a suite of 3 attack powers is not worth 3 times as much as having a single attack power, and that multiple powers (say one attack, one movement, one defence) arising from a single source are cheaper than the same suite of powers from diverse and independent sources. In Champions, this effect usually arises from Multipowers and ECs or Linked powers. M&M's simpler structure goes one better; by not having two separate frameworks, you can combine 4 attack powers with 2 defence powers and a movement power and enjoy all the cost breaks without introducing some unusual structures (like a limitation to have adjustment powers negatively effect powers outside an EC proportionally to the EC). The only cost (and a small one it is) is that the suite of powers are assumed to have the same rank or bonus,

[Jester]

Thanks, Tom.

I've never played either of these games, HERO or M&M, so I'm not very familiar with cost-breaks and all that stuff. I figured I'd have to have a limitation because of what I've read on these forums, though.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Jester
Okay, I'm still having a hard time deciding...here's a question for ya.

I have an idea for a hero that I'd like to "build" for a game. I'm wondering which of the 3 games he'd be the easiest (read easiest: most accurate, without the most headache in the creation process). Here goes.....

Basically, he's a guy with a very high energy field inside his body (I haven't worked out yet if it'll be just a higher-than-normal electric field or some other form of exotic energy). Because of that field, he heals extremely fast (a la Wolverine, Sabertooth, etc, etc). On his own, he basically has no attacking powers (as of yet...I'm sure his abilities will evolve and further mutate as time goes by, just like in lots of comic books) except sweet martial arts skills. He DOES have custom-made energy pistols that draw directly on the reservoir of energy in his body to use as pulse blasts. Because the field is in his body, he generally can control whether it's stun damage (like a taser or something) or concussive-type damage (if that even makes sense, I don't know). I was also thinking of having a sword for him with the hilt basically performing the same funcion as the guns so that he could charge the blade with energy, too. I was thinking of making it so that he HAS to release some of his energy, or it would kill him (if you think that's a good idea). I'm not sure if his powers would require any further limitations or anything. And I haven't figured out his background yet, either. I don't know where he got the guns, but I was thinking of a secret agent type of thing with him, maybe with it as his background, maybe with it as his current deal...I don't know...

So, will that idea work fine in Mutants and Masterminds, or just in HERO or GURPS?

Jester,
Having played Hero/Champions for 22 years, I could build this character in Hero in my sleep. Very effectively, I might add.

Having played Hero/Champions for 22 years, I can also say that it would not be intuitive for most new gamers, to use Hero... as they would have to plow through a lot of text and numbers and options to get there. M&M (which I'm also playing, these days) would probably be more intuitive and easier to get to the basic concept, quickly.

M&M = intuitive, quick, simple... at the cost of charcter balance, unexplained nuances and vague effects (what does a -1 to your Save really mean?)

Hero = balanced, subtle, deep... at the cost of time and complexity and hard learning curve (ok... I add 11 to what? And subtract what? And I want to roll low why, and I use HOW much END? And Sixes count as 2 body... huh?)

I'll never stop running Hero/Champions. I'm good at it.

Would I recommend it to a newbie running for a newbie group? Not unless everyone is really, really nice and patient, and willing to learn things in small steps.

Oh... and M&M really drives a "four color" feel... while Champions, in my experience, tends to lead toward a more gritty, lethal, detailed and "crunchy" gaming experience.

Both are good. If you are new... understand a need for much patience and trial and error with Hero. Same with any new system, but M&M will get you up and running, faster.

[Jester]

Do I understand this right? Does 4-color mean basically the lighter type of game, not as dirty or dark like Batman or lots of Marvel comics?

I'm looking for something more gritty like the latter, not so much the brighter, sunny day fighting a supervillain type.

I talked to somebody else who said that he didn't think the learning curve was so bad for a newbie....I don't know....gggrrr...

I'm not totally new to RPG's. I've played Heroes Unlimited, the old Marvel game, TMNT, and the old Star Wars game. I understand the mechanics of role playing. I'm just not looking for a game where the battles take seemingly forever because of having to add this and subtract that and multiply by this or that......

Is HERO like that? I wish they had an example battle on their site or something so that potential GMs/Players could get a feel for the game...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jester
Do I understand this right? Does 4-color mean basically the lighter type of game, not as dirty or dark like Batman or lots of Marvel comics?
No, he is not using the term four-color correctly. Four-color is a genre of comic books, and can easily be simulated in HERO, M&M, SAS, or any of a dozen other superhero game systems. Hero Games' Champions Universe is every bit as four-color as M&M's Freedom City.

Here is the real difference between the two systems:

In M&M you roll 1d20 and you factor in Feat and Power modifers. Depending on the other target making a save, you either miss, knock them out, or do a hit. You get a few hits before you are knocked out. So in M&M you have only 3 possible outcomes from 1 die roll. Knockouts are fairly common on only one hit. Some people consider this comic book like, personally I have seldom read a comic where the main villain was taken out in 2-3 panels.

In HERO you make one roll to hit and one roll for damage. In HERO you decide if you want to do a spinning-side kick or a spider punch. You decide if you want to use your atomic fire to obliterate the foe, or if you just want to knock them out. Your opponent gets to decide if they want to take the blow, dodge the blow, roll with the blow to take less damage, or try and deflect it or reflect it back at the foe.

HERO combat is slower because most people have multiple options. A martial artist might have 6 different attacks they could choose from. An energy blaster might have 6 different ranged attacks to choose from. You also have half a dozen different combat maneuvers you can use (Haymaker, Sweep/Rapid Attack, Set, Brace, etc). In M&M you are just punching, or shooting your attack. There is no difference between a spinning back kick and a spider punch. They are just HTH attack.

HERO is for gamers looking for more detail. M&M is for gamers who do not really care about detail. The detail is what makes HERO harder to learn and M&M easier. Each person is looking for something different in a game though. If you are just looking for something simple, go with M&M or SAS. If you are looking for a game that gives you detail in your combats, then go with HERO.

[Jester]

Hero it is, then.

Thanks, guys.

[Monolith]

Jester,

If you want an idea as to what HERO System characters look like then go to the FREE STUFF section and download the Genre-By-Genre pdf. There are character examples in that pdf for multiple genres (superhero, dark superhero, fantasy, scifi, ect). This will give you an idea of what the characters look like, and give you an idea of the choices the characters have.

If you have any questions or problems, feel free to contact me off the message boards and I'll be happy to give you whatever answers I can.

[Jester]

Cool, I'll do that.

Thanks!

[Victim]

Originally posted by Monolith
No, he is not using the term four-color correctly. Four-color is a genre of comic books, and can easily be simulated in HERO, M&M, SAS, or any of a dozen other superhero game systems. Hero Games' Champions Universe is every bit as four-color as M&M's Freedom City.

Here is the real difference between the two systems:

In M&M you roll 1d20 and you factor in Feat and Power modifers. Depending on the other target making a save, you either miss, knock them out, or do a hit. You get a few hits before you are knocked out. So in M&M you have only 3 possible outcomes from 1 die roll. Knockouts are fairly common on only one hit. Some people consider this comic book like, personally I have seldom read a comic where the main villain was taken out in 2-3 panels.

In HERO you make one roll to hit and one roll for damage. In HERO you decide if you want to do a spinning-side kick or a spider punch. You decide if you want to use your atomic fire to obliterate the foe, or if you just want to knock them out. Your opponent gets to decide if they want to take the blow, dodge the blow, roll with the blow to take less damage, or try and deflect it or reflect it back at the foe.


Actually, I think the main difference you bring up is that in HERO you can abort to defensive defensive actions, while M&M has stricter turns.

First of all, there are 2 rolls for the MM system. The attack roll is analogous to the hero attack roll. Then there's the damage save. This roll is basically the same as a damage, but it passes the die roll to the target instead of the attacker. If you wanted, you could easily switch the numbers around so that the attacker rolls and still have the same probabilities. The only difference then would be that attackers could spend Hero Points or Villain Points to boost damage instead of having the defender spend them to reduce damage.

That brings me to my next point: hero/villain points. Characters can spend these points to greatly increase combat length by rerolling failed saves. One hit KOs are very difficult if the opponent has points to spend.

Two to three hit KOs aren't uncommon in HERO either. 12d6 attacks are about 42 stun. Average defenses are around 20. I got these values straight from the guidelines for 350 point supers. That's about 20 stun per hit. Someone with 60 stun is knocked out in 3 hits, barring recoveries.

Characters can either be missed (failed attack roll), hit but uninjured (successful damage save), injured (failed save by less than 5), injured and stunned - like CON stun, characters can lose their actions from nasty or lucky attacks (failed damage save by between 5 and 10) or be either KO'd by stun attacks or disabled by lethal attacks. Disabled basically means that you can lie there with bad injuries or strain yourself for one last action, fall unconscious, then start testing to avoid death. The rules for extras have unimportant characters either get KO'd or killed if they fail the damage save, depending or whether the attack is stun or lethal. Injured results reduce your damage save, so characters can by worn down. That's much more than 3 results.

There are also deflection and reflection powers too.

It's also cheap and simple to buy additional powers similar to ones you already have via power stunts. My power armor character has 4 different modes for ranged attacks, amd since you don't have to use extras, that's effectively 7. It's not very hard to build characters with a wide range of options.

The main problems with M&M is that some of the costs seem off, and that the system doesn't handle fine differences or subtle limitations very well. Skills seem too expensive, and powers like Incorporeal (Desolid) give too much for 1 rank. Fine distinctions aren't reflected very well. If you want a good tactical speed, then you need lots of ranks in a movement power. If you want NCM that isn't painfully slow, then you probably want the increased sprinting speed stunt. When you combine the two, you end up with a character that easily exceeds the speed of sound at starting PLs. It's like having normal movement or megascale movment, but no option for just boosting the NCM mulplier or scaling megascale below 1 km hexes. At PL 10, if you get area, then you get a huge area by default. You also have 1000 ft range. For a flaw, the range drops to touch. Sure, you could set up your power to have half range or something, but is that worth the same as full range, or touch range. The flaw/extra system doesn't really handle anything but big differences.

[tesuji]

I gotta appluad monolith for perhaps the most biased comparison of MNM and HERo i have ever seen.

In MNM there are four outcomes that can come from a normal attack of the bash em upside the head that hits. These are (and their HERo counterparts are):
Stopped by defense (stopped by defense)
"Hit" (lose some stun or body.)
"stunned" (con stunned)
"KO" (unconscious)

Lethal attacks in MnM replace KO with disabled, which is an "on the verge of death."

The big difference is, in MNM i can get most of these rolls on any given hit. In hero, the odds are that, barring the stun lotto for killing attacks, in most cases your first couple attacks will yeild nothing but "loss of stun" and eventually you will get to "ko". you will rarely see con stun. you will rarely see stopped by defenses.

these assume comparable opponents.

HERO is much more akin to DND... you have a block of hit points and you can rest assured that a typical attack will not do enough to take out all your hit points at once. So, dont worry too much until you have been whittled down some.

In MNM you can choose when you fire your attack how much damage at a max you want to do. Monlith's post may make t seem like thats only in hero.

In MNM, you can give your character's combat choices cool names too. Monliths post may lead you to believe you can only do that in HERO.

In MNM when a nasty attack or a hail of attacks is coming in you MAY be able to dodge them (spend a hero point to increase defense), you may be able to deflect them (if you have the power that allows this) or (this departs from hero) you may be able to deflect them even if you don't have the deflect power already purchased by spending a HERO POINT to use a power you do have in a special way to deflect them on the fly. Monolith's post might have given you the notion that these things are only in HERO.

The single biggest difference is probably the hero point syste, Hero points recognize that while most rpg systems can do well in 90% or maybe even 95% of the cases, there will always be some rough edges and special circumstances. Hero points are a built-in limited number of uses mechanic which are intended to be helpful in many areas.

Did your main HERO just take a real unluckt hit and is about to go down... spend a hero point. How many do you have left.

HERo points in MNM in addition to the dodges and the rerolls on damage saves and the wake up quickly from Ko...also allow the on the spot funky one time use of my powers to do something special. In HERO, for the most part, its a case of "did you buy it beforehand" and if the answer is "no" then its tough luck. (The power skill in HERO5 is the vague first beginnings of adding this to their system.)

MnM allows you to spend a hero point to add an bit of an "extra" to your already existing powers.

Suddenly need to extend your force field to cover a friend... did you buy it? No!? Spend a hero point.

Suddenly need to extend your force field to block an incoming attack? Spend a hero point.

Suddnely need to use your firebolts to sweep an area or throw a fireball? Spend a hero point.

techincally its called extra effort and is tiring unless you spend a hero point.

Thats just a few.

HERO is MORE DETAILED. That does not means its better at details.

MnM uses a wider brush, does not cut too fine into range... range is touch or range is more often than not not an issue.

You tell me, do you see spidey in the comics fretting over whether he is 8 meters as opposed to 10 meters? Do you see vision lining up so he is within 32m as aoppsed to 40? or do you indeed see most often in comics the issue is "do i have to get to touch" vs "can i shoot him from range" and from there its a matter of terrain.

Comics are not "detail" oriented stories. They are not fine grained precisions.

MnM cuts a broader swath, basically saying "if its a big issue, make it worth points, part of accounting... but if its a relatively small matter, let it be within the GM's discretion realm." As a rough rule of thmub, HERo uses measurements in quarters... Mnm uses the equivalent of hero halves as their smallest unit. Most of the HERo quarters would probablty end up as just FX in MNM.

MNM basically treats things worth points as significant elements for the character. Kryptonite in MNM is seen as a significant thing for superman, something the character is almost completely wrapped around. It is an element crucial to his character and story. HERo sees that as just 25 of his 150 points of disads.

I hope i did not come off sounding too unbiased myself.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by tesuji
I gotta appluad monolith for perhaps the most biased comparison of MNM and HERo i have ever seen.
The only reason I responded to this thread at all was because your reply was so biased against HERO and for M&M.

The only mistake I made in my post was that there are 4 possible outcomes in M&M instead of 3. Everything else which I said was accurate. There are far more attacks available in HERO than there is in M&M. For example:

M&M Ranged Attack (Energy Blast):
Can be purchased 3 ways: Stunning (normal), lethal (killing), or Explosion (with explosive area).

HERO Ranged Attack:
Can be purchased as Energy Blast (stunning) or Killing Attack (lethal). On top of that each of those two choices can also be purchased as Armor Piercing, Explosions, Penetrating, No Normal Defense, No Normal Defense which Does Body, AVLD, or AVLD which Does Body.

I am not including the common modifiers which both game have such as Area Effect, Affects Desolid, etc.

So in M&M your ranged attack has 3 possible ways to be purchased. In HERO your ranged attack has 14 possible ways to be purchased; three of which are the same as in M&M. You can even get creative in HERO and include a Flash attack which Does Body to make an even stranger painful attack. That increases the number to 15. Now there might be one or two modifiers that I missed in M&M (I am not an expert on the system), but even 5 choices is a far cry from 15 choices.

The HERO System's diversity and options are its strength for many players. Many other gamers do not care about such things. Each gamer is unique. M&M's strength is that it is very fast. The attacker rolls his To Hit, the defender rolls his Save, and an outcome is determined.

As far as Hero Points in M&M, those are very cool. But it should be pointed out that the average character only has 5. If the character uses all 5 to keep from being knocked out in one combat, he is out of luck for the rest of the encounter/session in most instances. When someone only has 5 uses they should not have to waste them on just staying conscious because the game rules are heavily biased toward one or two hit knockouts, IMO.

If you are the type of gamer who does not care what the difference is between a Spinning Back Kick and a Spider Punch, and only considers it to be a visual difference but not a game difference, then M&M is for you. If you are a gamer who thinks a character chooses to do a Spider Punch at that moment in time because it is to his advantage to do so, then HERO is the game for you. It really is just that simple.

[zornwil]

I think tesuji and many others are distorting poorly the "weaknesses" of HERO and MnM. I'll see what I think after I've actually played MnM, but based on the rules and the "real world" experiences expressed on both boards I can't see a reason for people to get into the "ah-ha, this system CAN'T do it, not at all, it sucks!" mode. Both systems clearly model differently amd therefore have relative strengths and weaknesses (perhaps one system more than the other for the majority of peopel, who knows?).

(I edited because I sort of nit-picked on Monolith's comparison of advantages and extras but reread what he wrote and I stated it poorly, and rather than rewrite it figured it was just too nit-picky period)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by zornwil
I can't see a reason for people to get into the "ah-ha, this system CAN'T do it, not at all, it sucks!" mode.
I do not think anyone is in that mode. Both systems can do many things, but they come at it from different ends.

The HERO System is exceptionally complicated, but that complication comes from the player and GM having so many different options to choose from. M&M simplifies their game by not giving the player as many choices. You gain speed of play but you sacrifice detail of design. Both are equally valid ways to play. It is all subjective to the individual.

As I said in my initial post on this subject, if you like fast and lose games then either M&M or SAS is a better choice. If you prefer more detail and are willing to accept slower combats because of that detail then go with HERO. A "detail" player is not going to be happy playing M&M and a "lose" player is not going to be happy playing HERO.

Each gamer needs to decide for themselves which style of play they prefer before spending a great deal of money on a game system they might not like. In Jester's case he needs to know whether he prefers detail or speed, and once he makes that evaluation he can decide which game he wants to purchase.

[rowport]

:eek:

Wow- this thread keeps going... and going... and going...

Anyway, a few pages back (!) I promised to come back and post again after a few more play sessions in M&M. Overall, my initial impressions are the same, but with some growing concerns with M&M.

Quick and dirty: Monolith's most-recent posts are really pretty accurate; for heavy detail HERO is the right answer, where M&M glosses over subtle distinctions. That is not really a criticsm of either (yet) so much as observation of style. I think his example of the type of punch (at the same power level) is right-on. So, for that, I really like M&M. Character generation is a breeze, lots faster than Champions. The problem that I am beginning to see with M&M is that cliche, "the Devil is in the details". IOW, there are some unintended consequences of the more-generalized character construction in M&M. Some of that might just be my relatively greater experience with Champions as a game system, but for whatever reason I am finding that I missed details in character construction of my NPC villains which are hurting them in combat. So, for that, I miss knowing with great precision exactly what each character can do, in HERO terms. Is that worth the extra time? Hmm... I am not sure.

Another perceived benefit for M&M versus Champions is combat simplicity. That is still partially true, particularly with a group already familiar with d20 rules, but less than my first impression. The problem is that combat results are randomized to the extent that Hero Points become a necessity on a regular basis; essentially, from a GM standpoint you should either bet that several of your villains will go down with one-punches, or regularly use Hero Points. But, I resist the idea of using them ruthlessly, because it feels too much like manipulating the players' results. I still think the idea of Hero Points is very clever (and really would fit in Champions as well) but I do not like the dependence on them in combat. The trade-off, of course, is that Champions can often be too predictable- villains of certain defenses are just plain unhurtable by lower-point heroes, and even if some damage gets through, combats can be long and dull with little surprises in the results. Here, it is the edge for M&M I (still) think, but narrower than I originally expected.

The short of this is that both games are quite good, and lots better than most other superhero games out there. (I have not played any of the .pdf games, though, so that is not included in the comparison.) Between the two, it is a very tough call. As a GM, I do believe that M&M is faster to run and prep, so that is an important factor. Certainly, the play style (detial versus loose) is the most important deciding factor, though.

[Nato]

Just subscribing.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Monolith

The only reason I responded to this thread at all was because your reply was so biased against HERO and for M&M.

Wow! Cool! i haven't bee the "devil" in a "the devil made me do it" case in a long time. Sure, my weekly players call me "Stevil" and one player even has me voice tagged into his cell as "evil" but it never sucks to have my basic infernal nature get its just due.

Thanks, man.

And of course, Kudo's to the original "devil made me do it" guy, himself! Flip, we miss you.

Originally posted by Monolith

The only mistake I made in my post was that there are 4 possible outcomes in M&M instead of 3. Everything else which I said was accurate.

That depends on whether accurate to you means "factual" but can also include "misleading."

For example, to list deflection of incoming attacks as an option for HERO characters is FACTUAL. To list it, however, as an example in a pair of paragraphs where your purpose SEEMS to be to list and highlight differences in HERO and MNM, where you leave it out of the MnM list even though it appears in MNM as well, well that seems misleading. Its like you are trying to direct the reader to think that item, listed only with what you can do with HERO, is not an option in MNM.

Of course, if by your post the reader makes that conclusion, then he would be wrong because the power exists in both game systems.

MnM and HERO are not different in DETAIL you can play with. MNM and HERO are different in the degree of detail the ACCOUNTING system worries about and the degree of detail they leave to "just for fun" as part of the character. MnM leaves a whole lot of things that can make small differences to you , the player and the GM, to decide as part of "what do i want in my character for fun" and leaves them off the accounting ledger. What in HERo would be a pre-defined, pre-purchase, pre-detailed specific maneuver costing a set number of character points in MnM would be just one choice of many you make at the table in play after buying more general things.

In MNM if it is important to you to pre-define your spinning side kick as say -3 to hit, +1 to dodge and +2 to damage and your spider punch as +2 to hit +2 to defense and-4 to damage, then you CAN. However, after purchasing the basic feats needed to allow your character to make "on the fly" decisions about shuffling to hit, damage and dodge, then you simply sit down and write out specific combos for specific "blows." If it is important to your character to have this level of detail, MnM embraces it fully, it just allows it to be a matter of character and not a matter of accounting.

As a side note, spinning side kicn and spider punch are not defined for you in FRED, the big black book of HERO. They may be defined for you in either Ultimate Martial Artist, in Ninja Hero or in any of the other hero supplements. So if you took from mono the notion that these were anything more than colorful names tagged onto hero maneuvers, you may have been misled.

Do not be fooled into think that if the detail is not reflected in the accounting spreadsheet, that the detail doesn't exist. MnM sets the fine detail into the hands of the player and the GM, making it a CHARACTER decision not an accounting decision.


Originally posted by Monolith

but even 5 choices is a far cry from 15 choices.

10dc NNDs, NND do body, AP, AVLD etc... all thend to do "a little body" and around 14 stun (some average as low as 11 other as high as 18) against typical villains. With the variety in dice rolls, they will tend to KO the villains after 2-4 hits.

When the Gm throws at you a challenge which is particularly vulnerable to one of the type, or he throws a villain who is particularly resistant to another type, the differences will be seen in play.

A guy dropped in thre hits in hero suffered perhaps 15 stun, then 10 stun, then 25 stun and went down.

A guy dropped in MNM after three "hit" did not stop and figure out how much stun was lost on each hit. whether it was 15 stun then 10 or 20 stun and then 5 is treated as irrelevent accounting. what matters in MNM is that these "hits" did nothing more than make it easier for the next hit to Ko him.

The detail was irrelevent. The added detail gained us nothing except an added accountinf step.

Is there any difference in HERo between a character who dropped in four hits by taking 10, then 15 then 12 then 18 versus someone who took 17, then 21, then 7 then 10? Only different subtotals along the way.

MnMs approach is to let the interim results be just that... interim results. A "hit" represents in hero-speak some amount of stun loss thats not enough to Ko or stun you.

Stun and con stunning represent the same thing, momentary shock, but in MNM it is far more common than in hero.

Originally posted by Monolith

The HERO System's diversity and options are its strength for many players. Many other gamers do not care about such things. Each gamer is unique. M&M's strength is that it is very fast. The attacker rolls his To Hit, the defender rolls his Save, and an outcome is determined.

MnM is fast and flexible and can be as detail oriented IN PLAY as you wish it to be. it is not as detail oriented in its accounting.

Originally posted by Monolith

As far as Hero Points in M&M, those are very cool. But it should be pointed out that the average character only has 5. If the character uses all 5 to keep from being knocked out in one combat, he is out of luck for the rest of the encounter/session in most instances. When someone only has 5 uses they should not have to waste them on just staying conscious because the game rules are heavily biased toward one or two hit knockouts, IMO.

In most of my team on team combats, the heroes spend 1-3 hero points total in a fight. i should say typically, of course, because bad rolls can simply take their toll. of course, in hero when you fall prey to a bad roll, like say a stun loto jackpot for the bad guy, you may just be out of it. good time to run get drinks.

Originally posted by Monolith

If you are the type of gamer who does not care what the difference is between a Spinning Back Kick and a Spider Punch, and only considers it to be a visual difference but not a game difference, then M&M is for you.

In hero its an accounting difference. In MnM its a character difference, as detailed as you want it to be... in play.

Originally posted by Monolith

If you are a gamer who thinks a character chooses to do a Spider Punch at that moment in time because it is to his advantage to do so, then HERO is the game for you. It really is just that simple.


Except that, of course, the same guy in MnM simply chooses to use his feats to adjust his to-hit (ocv), defense (DCV) and damage (damage) to meet the needs and says "i throw my spider punch" too. If he felt earlier in the day that pre-defining his spider punch was important and needed to be specified, then somewhere in his character sheet or background he writes in "FoeSlayer prefers to sometimes use his spedier punch..." and writes down the pre-sets he feels are appropriate.

Did he have to prefigure this spider punch thingy when he built the character? Nope... he just bought some rather broad feats (AAA, PA, AA, Expertise, MBA = 10 points) that let him manipulate his OCV, DCV, and damage levels. then, if the detail matters to him... if its important for his character, if he thinks it will be fun... he has the OPTION of writing down as many neato "maneuvers" as he feels like within the scope of what his character can do. When he thinks of another one his character can do, while driving to the game, he just writes them down when he gets there and hopes for the chance to show them off... as opposed to whipping out the calculator.

in a sort of parting message... i will paraphrase what another very experienced gamer once said. It was in the midst of a discussion on something not too far afield from mono's focus here on martial arts maneuvers and attack differences and details... it was about gaming differences and details between fantasy weapons... like axes, swords (less damage more ocv), hammers (less damage more stun), etc etc etc.

This very experienced gamer, who did i think have some experience with hero, observed that that level of detail might well be able to "get in the way." he observed that for many people, and in fact in much fantasy lit, the "choice of weapon" was more or less simply a statement about the persona of the character. Whwther you wield a battleaxe with double curved blades and a wicked looking spike, a slim rapier, or a sturdy legion issued gladius is most often seen in the sources and in the eyes of the players as a style thing... it should not be a tactical decision weighing the in game mechanics of the weapons against the campaign norms and assessing the most value for the points spent. he mentioned something like just letting something as simple as one-handed weapons do X and two handed weapons do Y and leaving the whole axes vs swords vs picks as flavor as an example of a good thing.

This is, of course, paraphrased. I doubt its still on the boards and wished i had copied it.

Anyone care to guess who said it?

More detail in the accounting stage is NOT equivalent to more detail in play.

HERO does indeed drive you to make far more detailed decisions at DESIGN TIME. MnM allows you to make these decisions at RUN TIME. thats not a difference in detail... its a difference in focus.

Hero's balance is the same as MnM... the balance is determined by your character's abilities intersecting the challenges provided by the GM. More math at design time does not create more balance.

To make the simplest case i can from official sources...

for 24 points in hero, officially, published and CONFIRMED by direct response from Steve Long as the preferred way... I buy the ability to spend actions to boost my dex from 1-6 points for CV purposes only that only works when i am within a certain radius of my buddy.

Thats a random amount of dex up to 6 points, only in limited circumstances, only providing certain benefits of dex, only after spending actions to make it happen... for 24 points.

Or...

I can just buy +6 dex for 18 points and save myself 6 points, a lot of restrictions and requiring no actions.

Do not let anyone CONvince you into HERo = balance or that the lie that more math = better balance is true.

Balance comes from the intersection of the character's abilities and the challenges the GM throws of these, the challenges the Gm thows are the most significant. He controls the characters abilities as well.

Balance comes from the GM, not the points.

HERO realizes this, even if some of its disciples don't.

if you see spiderman as fretting about whether he can get to 16 meters from the bad guy or if he can just make it to 18 meters as your idea of what gaming a comic should be like...if you think that the relative frequency of aunt may getting in trouble and needing rescuing being with 25%, 62% or 90% should make the difference between and be weighed against you getting +0, +1, and +2-3 to hit with his webshooters or that this type of event should eve be pre-determined and set as a part of the ACCOUNTING system... then HERo will serve you better.

If thats not your image however of gaming a comic book spidey... then Mnm may be more your cup of tea.

*********************

Quickie note to keep focus... regardless of all these differences, i would NEVER recommend someone pick up the FRED and jump into DMing with it with a group who also lacks experiences with the system, HERO needs an experienced GM and that means you should, would be better served, by getting into a HERo game, a campaign run by an experienced GM, and getting a handle on things before you start GMing. i would say it is practically essential. FRED is not a game, HERO fans will point this out, it is a TOOLKIT for building a game. "The ultimate Gamers toolkit" if you believe its own cover.

So, for someone with NO experience with HERO, NO experience with MnM, then i would strongly recommend you pick up MnM and work with it if you want to GM.

Mono may disagree but thats not too surprising.

[JohnOSpencer]

Tesuji, a suggestion. Smaller, more easily readable posts. So I don't lose intrest half way through. You've made some good points. But I probably lose some by missing the ends of your post.

Second, as M&M is D20, I assume it is level based.

Third, does M&M have critical hits and fumbles?

John Spencer

[Evil Thoughts]

Originally posted by tesuji
Sure, my weekly players call me "Stevil"

I'd just call you "dumbass."

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

Second, as M&M is D20, I assume it is level based.

It is "level based" but not in the sense you may think.

Characters are built on 15 points per level. All the level does is provide a cap on certain purchase.

you cannot purchase a power to more than level , You cannot purchase a skill to more than level+3.

Basically think of it as sort of level = DC cap and you have the idea. XP is awarded as power points which you spend as you go along. It is not bunched together into a single "level up." When you have gained enough XP, your caps rise.

PCs start at level 10.

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

Third, does M&M have critical hits and fumbles?


criticals occur on a natural 20 roll and add 5 to the damage OR provide you an automatic hit if the 20 would have missed. A natural 1 always misses. There are no specific rules for fumbles other than the miss.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Evil Thoughts
I'd just call you "dumbass."

Wow!

I would have to say that if that were the case, i would not be able to keep you as a player for long in my group. Unless of course you meant that in the fondest of senses, a playful jest perhaps. See, i try and avoid confrontational situations with my players, so real animosity is a sure indication of a problem that either needs fixing or a clear sign of a separation needing to come.

I take my guys and gals "Stevil" and other plays on "evil" in good spirits, as they are offered, more as praise. In much the same light as when i tell my players after our most notorious punster has cut loose "hit him hard enough and i will let you level up?"

I joked with him one day at lunch that he and his wife, who also plays, should show up one night with his arm in a sling and she should hand me her new sheet and say "Shiva just leveled up!"

He laughed then looked serious and said "I don't know what;s scarier, that you just suggested that or that my wife suggested it to me two weeks ago!"

I nearly choked right then and there.

So, all in all, i will take your comment as an attmept by you at witicism or cleverness. otherwise it would just look like namecalling.

Thanks.

[Marcus]

I dont belive I read the whole thing!

Tetsuji, one question... what appreciable benefit do you anticipate for yourself in 'converting' Hero players into M+M players?

To the remainder of you... what benefit do you anticipate in defending HERO against the claims of Mr. Tetsuji?

Anyone whose this far into this thread is no doubt a heavy player of at least Hero, and possibly both systems, and ergo likely to be competent to form their own opinions.

As for ~my~ own opinions, they will remain my own... it is less painful than becoming involved in this debate...

But all parties involved are being rather silly. Let the thread die. Go play whichever game you like better.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by tesuji
criticals occur on a natural 20 roll and add 5 to the damage OR provide you an automatic hit if the 20 would have missed. A natural 1 always misses. There are no specific rules for fumbles other than the miss.

That is pretty much the reason I don't like D20. A straight one in twenty chance of failure. Its also the reason I don't like WEGs D6 system. I prefer rolling multiple dice, and ending up with a more average result. Less for the GM to fudge.

John Spencer

[Storn]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
That is pretty much the reason I don't like D20. A straight one in twenty chance of failure. Its also the reason I don't like WEGs D6 system. I prefer rolling multiple dice, and ending up with a more average result. Less for the GM to fudge.

John Spencer

MM is not quite that simple. Hero and Villain pts allow for re-rolls. There are enuff Hero Pts to allow for several re-rolls. It is built right into the system, it is THE key component of the game. Not an afterthought. So, yes, you as a PC have a automatic 5% chance of failure for every roll. But only if you choose to accept the roll... you can re-roll it if you need/want to.

The brilliance of the Hero pts is that only one Hero Pt may be spent a round. So, if you spend a Hero Pt to get a better chance to hit, expand a power, then you are open to retaliation. That feels "comic-booky" to me.

My players spend Hero Pts like water, fast and furious...as do I for the villains. It works great.

I'm a HUGE fan of the Hero Pts and bookkeeping of MM. I am able to handle many villains with ease... something I'm not capable of doing fast in Hero. I also have 1 "mimic" character and 1 "absorbtion" character now... both are much, much easier to handle the power aquisition bookkeeping in MM than in Hero.

MM is not "as" balanced as Hero. it suffers, IMO, from 1st Ed kinks. Incorporal, Protection and Armor are all too cheap. But so is Strength in Hero. Both games have balance discrepencies. MM needs some time to get out of its growing pains, but the core ideas are solid and I like them.

HOwever, I do miss the graininess, the range of manuevers and the impact of combat when it comes to low level supers, guns and martial arts... the area that *I* think champs works best. I had a firefight in the jungle last game, and a couple of times I missed the armor piercing, the Offensive attack etc, the rolling of 4d6 RKA. So don't think that I'm ignorant of Champions charms.

And while I appreciate spirited debate... I don't think we need to call each other dumbass... or to make such detailed, minute comparisons that my eyes glaze over. Both systems have something to offer, substantial things to offer. I continue to play both MM and Champs. I like both.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Marcus
Tetsuji, one question... what appreciable benefit do you anticipate for yourself in 'converting' Hero players into M+M players?
Tetsuji is what Rod Currie described in a chat one night as a "Born Again;" and the name fits very well. Tetsuji has been Born Again into M&M and must now spend all of his free time convincing everyone of M&M’s virtues and converting them to the “light.” And just as in the religious sense Tetsuji will jump right into the middle of the “heathens” den and suffer all consequences trying to bring all of us lost souls into the divine as he sees it. As with most fanatics in that regard, Tetsuji is blind to the fact that we heathens are happy being who we are, in this case HERO System players, and have no desire to be part of his divine plan. If we did we would be on the M&M message boards. It is not like it cost money to join those boards or something. :)

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Monolith


There are no real solutions for that in the HERO System. Character creation cannot really be made too much quicker, though DOJ is attempting to help this with the UNTIL database book. You cannot take the fractional math out of the game without doing a major alteration of the game. Finally, the only way to speed up combat is to remove the Speed Chart and use fixed damage totals instead of having to roll 12d6 every time (rolling and adding the dice in a superhero game are big consumers of combat time).




Sorry, have not read the whole thread yet, but want to point out you can do something about the fractual math:

Take it out and replace it with decimal math, something people are more comfortable.

In other words a -1/2 lim becomes a -0.5 lim, no change to the system except how things are expressed, but it will make it easier in alot of minds (don't ask me why, but that is my expeirience)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz
Take it out and replace it with decimal math, something people are more comfortable.

In other words a -1/2 lim becomes a -0.5 lim, no change to the system except how things are expressed, but it will make it easier in alot of minds (don't ask me why, but that is my expeirience)
Wow! Talk about a past memory. I think I made that post about 3 months ago. :)

In my mind there is no difference between fractional math and decimal math. I learned that the two were one and the same somewhere back in 3rd grade. But if it helps other people understand the system I am all for expressing it as decimal math. :)

[JmOz]

Sorry, starterd from the begening and I noticed it. You are of course a 100% right about the two being the same, but people tend to look at decimals and go "Ohh, that is normal math" and fractions send them in fear (Don't ask me why, I don't understand it)

I'm only on page 5 right now...

[Storn]

Originally posted by Monolith
Tetsuji is what Rod Currie described in a chat one night as a "Born Again;" and the name fits very well. Tetsuji has been Born Again into M&M and must now spend all of his free time convincing everyone of M&M’s virtues and converting them to the “light.” And just as in the religious sense Tetsuji will jump right into the middle of the “heathens” den and suffer all consequences trying to bring all of us lost souls into the divine as he sees it. As with most fanatics in that regard, Tetsuji is blind to the fact that we heathens are happy being who we are, in this case HERO System players, and have no desire to be part of his divine plan. If we did we would be on the M&M message boards. It is not like it cost money to join those boards or something. :)

Mono, from my point of view, you are equally as die-hard (for Hero) and have flanned the flames over and over. In my opinion, the kettle is calling the pot black.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Storn
Mono, from my point of view, you are equally as die-hard (for Hero) and have flanned the flames over and over. In my opinion, the kettle is calling the pot black.
That is true Storn. But I am not doing it on the M&M boards, am I? There is a difference there, even if you cannot see it. He brought the fight to our home, we did not bring it to his. Most self-respecting HERO gamers have more sense then that.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Marcus

Tetsuji, one question... what appreciable benefit do you anticipate for yourself in 'converting' Hero players into M+M players?


Why am i participating in these discussions?

I like to help people.
I want world peace and this is the first starting point.
its a test of my orbital mind control sats.
I enjoy a lively discussion with intelligent people.
i relish the free exchange of ideas.
I believe that wise men learn from others mistakes and that by sharing my mistakes i can help others be wiser than i was.

Pick one!

[tesuji]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
That is pretty much the reason I don't like D20. A straight one in twenty chance of failure. Its also the reason I don't like WEGs D6 system. I prefer rolling multiple dice, and ending up with a more average result. Less for the GM to fudge.
John Spencer

OK you raise two points so i will take them in order to clarify.

the 1 fails is for attacks. it does not apply for skill rolls stat checks and the like. if a 5% chance of missing for a NORMAL in a combat situation is too much, well then MnM is probably not your game.

For HEROES and VILLAINS, the "non-normals" so to speak, after rolling that 1 they can spend a hero point to get a reroll with a minimum 10. So unless they are worn out, the 5% chance is a choice, not a mandate.

As for 3d6 etc...

All a bell curve does is vary the amount a +1 is worth. A+1 might be +4% or it might be worth 12.5
5 or it might be worth +.5% and so forth.

The illusion of more predictable results" arises when you intersect the vell curve and the ranges assigned by the game as success failure etc.

For example, 11- on 3d6 is 62%. If i want to represent that in s20, i use 12- and we both roll with the same probability of success. All the bell curve does is produce variable probability differences.

If fumbles were defined in HERo as 3-4-5 then it would have the same about 5% (off the top of my head) as d20 does.

So a gm who did not like hero's having a potential miss on 1 in 20, with the option of rerolling with HP, could simply for his game assign a house rule to make the probabilities meet his campaign needs more exactly.

Interestingly, if you look at some of the optional rules HERO has, like hit locations, you will see similar probabilities... 1 5% chance of a head shot producing grossly increased damage, if you then roll lucky on the dice, and good odds of that becoming a one-hit-ko.

At the same time, the chance of getting feet or hands (for a minimum damage hit that typically wont do anything) is more than 5%.

So it looks to me that with hit locations, the d20 miss on a 1 if you are a normal is just quicker.

[Stormbringer]

First, who is DOJ? I know they own Hero Games but what else do they do?
Second, if they changed the Hero rules to be more like M&M, it would be M&M. Why change your favorite system to one that you ppl hate?

Third, M&M isn't a fad. A friend of mine runs a M&M game and has 13 players and more ppl interested in it. Another guy is trying to run a Hero game but no one is interested even ppl that played it before. Hero needs to cut back on the math like M&M ans SAS does so PCs can be made faster and ppl can get on with the game.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Monolith
Tetsuji is what Rod Currie described in a chat one night as a "Born Again;" and the name fits very well. Tetsuji has been Born Again into M&M and must now spend all of his free time convincing everyone of M&M’s virtues and converting them to the “light.”

While an interesting theory, Monolith unfortunately misses the fact for the propoganda.

I was on these bords well before MnM came out, and have been as critical of HEROs faults then as i am now. IIRC one of my favorite examples of hero math showing us soooo much gain in balance (the preferred fighting array costing more than just buying dex) and most of my other examples came from well before MNM was anything but a gleam in kensons eye. jeck, Monlith once even tried to convince me to join the playtesters for HERo because i caught so many things they didn't.

The only thing that has changed is that in addition to having the ability to offer improvements here and there to hero rules and presentations i can also now offer a route for those who don't want to work uphill to make a change from within.

MnM is that other alternative.

When people come to these boards looking for advice, I can offer a different position.

So, while it might be easy for Monolith to ignore the facts and let MnM be the cause for my religious zeal as he likes to think of it. My issues with hero have been around and vocalized for frankly decades. I have been posting on various boards about hero problems (and benefits) for longer than i can remember.

But, hey, i gotta say, the whole "religious zealot" thing sounded real good... so lets not allow facts to get in the way of a great sound byte!

Kudos monolith.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Monolith
That is true Storn. But I am not doing it on the M&M boards, am I? There is a difference there, even if you cannot see it. He brought the fight to our home, we did not bring it to his. Most self-respecting HERO gamers have more sense then that.

Methinks he misses the fact that i did not start this thread.

Methinks he misses the fact that i had left it alone to go until someone new chimed in asking for recommendations between the two.

Methinks he missed the fact that my response before he started flaming again was to pass judgement on which is better for a person with no experience with either to just pick up and GM from the get go.

Methinks he even missed that i said to get into HERo you should start with an experienced group as a player and get some experience before GMing. (Does anyone here disagree with the fact that HERO's complexity and HERO's "toolkit, not a game" design philosophy does in fact make it less useful or user friendly for a person who wants to Gm for a novice crowd with no HERO experience himself? )

Then, things kind of took off, what with me being the devil and Monolith playing Flip Wilson's roll.

Thats OK though, everyone sees a bad guy if they need to see one. If i can help Monolith by fulfilling that role in his eyes, the crusading invader out to sack his mosques, thats cool.

[Monolith]

Methinks I have now added Tetsuji to my Ignore list.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji

The only thing that has changed is that in addition to having the ability to offer improvements here and there to hero rules and presentations i can also now offer a route for those who don't want to work uphill to make a change from within.

MnM is that other alternative.



An observation-

And that may be some of the problem.... people come to the HERO boards to talk about HERO and how to improve HERO, or how certain things could liven your game. They, mostly, don't want to hear how some other game is "better than HERO" from someone else. Now if you take ideas from M&M, don't bother to say where you got them, and give them out as ideas for people to use, what you say may go over a little better.

I bought M&M when it came out, I read it, played it a few times, thought "meh" and went back to HERO. So when I read your posts about how much better M&M is, I know that for my personal tastes and experiences it isn't, and have a teneancy to look over any good points you may make, due to tone and presentation, as I think your basic assumption (M&M better than HERO) is flawed.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Monolith
That is true Storn. But I am not doing it on the M&M boards, am I? There is a difference there, even if you cannot see it. He brought the fight to our home, we did not bring it to his. Most self-respecting HERO gamers have more sense then that.

I respectfully disagree. he brought the battle to "general roleplaying". Which is a forum for, well, general roleplaying. This is precisely the place for system debates. This thread is not on Hero Discussion or the Champions forums. Where, then, you might have a point. But here? Not in my book.

Now I think Tes has gotten out of hand (sorry Tes), but that doesn't mean all the Hero faithful should jump down his throat for defending his favorite or preferred superhero system. I think there needs to be some relaxation of antogonism on both sides.

[i3ullseye]

Um, I been staying well out of this for a while now, but come on...

the Bell curve and variance of a 3D6 roll is vastly different than a single d20. You are missing the whole probabilities of the die coming up the same value, or the probabilities of various combinations. It is MUCH less likely to roll a 3 (only one of it's possible results) than a d20 is to roll any one of it's possibilities, which is a flat even probability across the die.

Not saying one is better or worse, just that they are dramatically different.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Storn
I respectfully disagree. he brought the battle to "general roleplaying". Which is a forum for, well, general roleplaying. This is precisely the place for system debates. This thread is not on Hero Discussion or the Champions forums. Where, then, you might have a point. But here? Not in my book.
I did not say he did not have the right to post his opinions about M&M in this forum, or any other for that matter. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that he should have the right to say "M&M is the best game" but no HERO fan should not have the right to reply "No, HERO is the best game." The way I see it, he has the right to state his opinion and anyone who wishes too has the right to disagree.

The point of my post you replied too is very simple. If I went to the M&M boards and said "Champions is the best superhero RPG in the world" I would expect the posters there to disagree with me. I would not be shocked if a dozen posters told me I was dead wrong, and then went out of their way to prove how I was wrong. If I brought the battle to the M&M boards I would expect to have to survive their counter-attacks. That is no different than Tetsuji having to survive the counter-attacks of the HERO fans on this board.

The difference is that I have more common sense than to get in a flamewar about how much I like HERO on the M&M boards.

[shade]

It's general role-playing. We can dicuss D&D 1st edition (were elves etc were classes). If Hero is so good, why are zealots trying to force out M&M fans on these boards? Why is the only to sell Hero stuff here is to drop the price by 60%? You people take Hero too seriously. It was the best system for most genres with it's flexiblity. But now, SAS and M&M are better, faster, and more popular, you people are freaking out. Get out of the house for awhile and realize that Earth isn't doomed.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

And that may be some of the problem.... people come to the HERO boards to talk about HERO and how to improve HERO, or how certain things could liven your game. They, mostly, don't want to hear how some other game is "better than HERO" from someone else.


"Mostly"...

Mostly you do not see me chiming in on thread after thread about how to use hero with MnM commentary.

Mostly, when i do chime in on HERo how to threads i answer in hero-speak.

I doubt i even said one word about MnM back with the dreaded tale of two tails or heaven forbid we dredge up the variable limitation threads. I talked HERO.

But, and i will direct your attention to the name of this thread... to its initial post, and to various recent posts like the one from the guy who asked for opinions on whether he should start up with MnM of HERo... WHEN the thread i am participating in has as its focus, its origin and its intent the difference between hero and mnm...

you know, the thread you just responded to by telling me how bad it is to comment on such matters...

then in those threads i think talking about the differences is apropos.

What precisely would you think a more appropriate topic than "hero vs mnm" in a thread titled hero vs "mnm"? Would discussing the various iterations of strong tail vs weak tail in HERO costs be more applicable?

[tesuji]

Originally posted by i3ullseye
Um, I been staying well out of this for a while now, but come on...

the Bell curve and variance of a 3D6 roll is vastly different than a single d20. You are missing the whole probabilities of the die coming up the same value, or the probabilities of various combinations. It is MUCH less likely to roll a 3 (only one of it's possible results) than a d20 is to roll any one of it's possibilities, which is a flat even probability across the die.

Not saying one is better or worse, just that they are dramatically different.

sigh...

one more time...

a 3d6 roll produces varying probabilities for its individual results. This does NOT mean it offers you a more predictable result curve or any of the other things people like to think.

If i define "fumble" on 2d6 as 2-5 then i have given fumble a 5% chance.

If i define "head shot" as 3-5 on a hit location roll, then i have just given x2 body and x5 stun (a typical Ko result) a 5% chance.

it is the INTERSECTION of the probability of results AND the mapping of those die rolls to in game outcomes that determines the chance.

The mental disconnect people tend to take is to simply translate the same mapping over to the die rolls and not the probabilities.

11- in 3d6 is not the same as 11- in 1d20... its more like 12- in 1d20. a 1 in d20 is more like 3-5 in 3d6... very close iirc.

The difference is...

when i have a 1d20... i know that a +1 is going to be more or less a 5% gain. i know a +3 is 15%

When i roll 3d6... a +1 might be 5%, or it might be 12.5% or it might be much smaller. i cannot assess "bad tools" as being 5% less because a -1 might be that or it might be more or less. It really strongly varies with the skill and the difficulty of the tash, and not in some easily understandable way as in "tougher tasks make penalties even more troubling" or vice versa.

If i do not prefer for head shots to be 5% then i will alter the hit location chart. If i don't like 1's to mean misses in combat (even with the HP option for a reroll) then i will alter that for my own personal tastes.

But, whether its 3d6 or 1d20 is irrelevent for what values i can give my choices, except that for planing purposes straight level increments are easier to manipulate then varying unlevel increments.

or to put it simply, think of +1 as = 1 dollar bill. A +2 for range = 2 one dollar bills. A +1 for aiming = one dollar bill. Each bill looks the same.

when you buy your groceries do you prefer to have your dollar bills each be worth one dollar or would you prefer that some dollars are worth 1 dollar, some are worth 50 cents, some are worth a quarter and some are worth $2.50 with the value of each determined randomly when used?

I like my dollars to be worth dollars. that way i know how much i have and i know how much they will buy when i soend them. i know a -2 for range is worth 2 dollars most of the time and not worth much less or much more.

For example... i paid 10 points for 2 +1 ocv levels.

i shoot my enemy, the dodger and i need without those levels a 9- on 3d6. Those two levels increase my odds by given me 54 more chances out of the 316 die rolls possible... 54 more results will say back to me "yay! you hit" because of those 10 cp spent.

on the other hand, if the dodger elects to dodge and decreases my chance without the levels to 4-, then those two levels give me, those same 10 cp give me, 16 more chances to hit, 16 more "yay!" results out of 316.

Because of MY ENEMY's CHOICE... those 2 dollars are worth either 54 chances more or 16 chances more.

Its like going to the register and finding out the cashier makes up the prices for items instead of using the ones printed on the shelves.

yes i know you have been taught that bell curves means more predictable results but in fact thats not the truth. bell curves produce variable probability steps... the more predicatable results comes from mapping "results" to broader sweeps of probability.

if you want to hit ~60% of the time assing 12- in d20 or 11- in 3d6. if you want to hit 90% of the time assign 14- in 3d6 or 18- in d20. if you want +1 or 1 dollar to be worth a set amount, use 1d20 not 3d6.



YMMV

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Monolith
I did not say he did not have the right to post his opinions about M&M in this forum, or any other for that matter. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that he should have the right to say "M&M is the best game" but no HERO fan should not have the right to reply "No, HERO is the best game." The way I see it, he has the right to state his opinion and anyone who wishes too has the right to disagree.


Actually, i think some might be curious as to why som much of your commentary seems to not be about hero being better than mnm and the games but rather about me somewhat personally... some might see a difference in opinions about games and opinions about people...

some might even wonder about the whole "born again" portrayal you ranted a little while ago (as just one example) and what it has to do with hero vs mnm at all.

but then, we all might just not have the common sense you claim for yourself.

we probably just don't get it.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by shade
It's general role-playing. We can dicuss D&D 1st edition (were elves etc were classes). If Hero is so good, why are zealots trying to force out M&M fans on these boards? Why is the only to sell Hero stuff here is to drop the price by 60%? You people take Hero too seriously. It was the best system for most genres with it's flexiblity. But now, SAS and M&M are better, faster, and more popular, you people are freaking out. Get out of the house for awhile and realize that Earth isn't doomed.

You need to calm down. You are just looking at the extremes of this discussion. Monolith and Tesuji just happen to be the most vocal people here. No one is trying to force anyone out. The only people who care which game sells more or is more popular are the ones collecting the money.

John Spencer

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
You need to calm down. You are just looking at the extremes of this discussion. Monolith and Tesuji just happen to be the most vocal people here. No one is trying to force anyone out. The only people who care which game sells more or is more popular are the ones collecting the money.
You are responding to our favorite troll who has just been banned. Don't worry about Shade, Stormbringer, Shadow Shulker, Centurion, or any of the other two or three identities the character posts under. The poster's only purpose is to cause trouble on the message boards.

[Tclynch]

Originally posted by Storn
Mono, from my point of view, you are equally as die-hard (for Hero) and have flanned the flames over and over. In my opinion, the kettle is calling the pot black.
Amen, brother....my thoughts, exactly.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji


What precisely would you think a more appropriate topic than "hero vs mnm" in a thread titled hero vs "mnm"? Would discussing the various iterations of strong tail vs weak tail in HERO costs be more applicable? [/B][/QUOTE]

I can see your point there. *shrug* I just seemed to get a sense of "why is everyone disagreeing with me" type tone from your posts- I may be misreading them, so I was trying to go over what I thought that was. Sorry if I misread that, or made some unwarrented assumptions.

I am generally not a fan of system "discussion" threads. I watch this one a little. If there is a place for it, it is here. I really don't think M&M is better than HERO, or really vice versa. It is all a matter of playing style and taste. If I had to be stuck with a non HERO game for the rest of my life, I'd take SAS/tri-stat. The M&M iteration of d20 would be my third choice.

Note that for me, I play trans-dimensional games, crossworld fantasy, sliders games that sort of thing- so universality is what I look for first. Genre emulation is very low on my priority, and while I love superhero roleplaying, I want a system that can do anything. So for my uses M&M just doesn't cut it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Storn
I
Now I think Tes has gotten out of hand (sorry Tes), but that doesn't mean all the Hero faithful should jump down his throat for defending his favorite or preferred superhero system. I think there needs to be some relaxation of antogonism on both sides.

Agree. Completely.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

Note that for me, I play trans-dimensional games, crossworld fantasy, sliders games that sort of thing- so universality is what I look for first. Genre emulation is very low on my priority, and while I love superhero roleplaying, I want a system that can do anything. So for my uses M&M just doesn't cut it.

This would, IMnHO, be a wonderful reason for preferring HERO.

I usually play single-genre games. Whether it be supers (HERo MnM), fantasy (various DND Fantasy HERo), sci-fi (various travellers), cyberpunk (Cyberpunk 2020 shadowrun cyber hero) or political erotic horror (VAmpire tM) i have never done a radical merging of different "worlds." where for instance a 150 pt fantasy character would end up in a 350 point supers setting.

I prefer GENREic games where the rules are built for the genre, story, setting rather than GENERIC games where the reverse seems true... where the setting, genre and game seems made to fit to the system.

I have never seen a need to "port" one character to another system, so to speak.

So this is no doubt a large part of the reason why i do not have as much value placed on the multigenre nature of HERo, GURPS or other generic systems.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji

I prefer GENREic games where the rules are built for the genre, story, setting rather than GENERIC games where the reverse seems true... where the setting, genre and game seems made to fit to the system.

So this is no doubt a large part of the reason why i do not have as much value placed on the multigenre nature of HERo, GURPS or other generic systems.

Makes total sense to me. And for a "genre fiend" who wants a lighter game I can truly see the attraction of M&M. For me, listing it as third game I'd play says something-- I work 50 hours a week, and do not have a whole bunch of time for gaming (although my wife and I do a bunch of casual gaming) so when I game, I choose one system to do all my gaming, so I can spend my time on characterization, setting and whatnot rather than learning new rules. Add to that my cross genre nature in gaming... and HERO is the best choice- for me.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
. Add to that my cross genre nature in gaming... and HERO is the best choice- for me.

i would add in even a third category.. .you are oviously long over the learning curve aspect hero's system has.

Pre-existing experience with the system, cross-genre gaming, and limited time to learn new systems... i cannot fault your decision at all. it sounds quite reasonable.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji
i would add in even a third category.. .you are oviously long over the learning curve aspect hero's system has.


I read this to my wife, who just started laughing.... this is a severe understatement.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji
i would add in even a third category.. .you are oviously long over the learning curve aspect hero's system has.


Another point I forget about. The learning curve. I have a friend who was planning to run a supers game for his group, and had never played in a superhero RPG (but is a huge comics fan) so I ran a Champs game for him and some other friends. He enjoyed it immensly, but commented he wouldn't be able to get his group to go HERO (they are like me, not a lot of time, don't want to learn a new system, and they play d20). So I loaned my SASd20 and M&M books to him (as well as my Vigilance) so he could see what would be best for him. So while I am a rabid HERO guy, I see the value of other systems.... even for me (I love to steal characters and settings).

Our group which has been together for something like 4 years, every player has been playing HERO almost exclusively for 15 or more years. So, yeah, I tend to forget about that learning curve.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
I read this to my wife, who just started laughing.... this is a severe understatement.

:-)

To give you a grasp of my situation...

i started GMing in 1982 or thereabouts and DND1 and HERo were my first real GMing systems. Since then i have Gmed and played in a number of systems, sticking mostly with GENREIC ones although i have run three-four fantasy hero games and used hero for a brief stint in a cyberpunk game. (I managed to skip 2nd edition dnd entirely with the help of FH, Vamp:tM, Amber, Cyberpunk 2020 and such.) HERo is clearly #1 in terms of "years spent GMing" for me, with Vamp and DND coming in second...DND now closing the gap because of my current game in its third year.

I never run corssover games... when my supers land in a fantasy world or my super mage gets ported back to ming arthurs time by a miscast spell the "medieval" guys are built as supers, not as FH types.

While i do vary from campaign to campaign the genres, i always take a bit of time between ending one and starting another (months typically) to get the new campaign geared up. So, while moment to moment time is an issue, campaign startup is not. (As such, MnM quicker chargen works for me a whole lot better than the "slightly longer" hero chargen does.)

I also try and bring in new players in each game. I of course have my regulars, many of who i have known fr longer than i have been dming, but i always try to bring in at least 1 new player with each campaign. In the last game, the wife of an occasional gamer joined in. She has never roleplayed before and is older than i am so i was deleriously pleased when she joined. She has little care for system or bookkeeping (she is an accountant by day, a woman by night.)

Had i tried to get her into a HERO game, it would IMO been a disaster, even with my own HERO-for-normal-people shortcuts i used back in FH days... inches gone, yards in etc...

DnD d20 was, however, sophisticated enough to give her the tactical options she needed and at the same time not be overwhelmed with too much system milking required.

The second newbie, who hadn't toleplayed in a decade and never with me, also worked well with the less rules intensive system, although his own issue of basically not being able to roll a d20 and add numbers remains an issue today. (its a laerning issue... he seriously locks up whenever he is doing math under observation.)

I shudder at the thought of him rolling 15d6 and looking for body. :-)

For my style of gaming, a leaner system that stays out of the way and is more intuitive by nature (sorry for hero fans but divide by 3 for cv, by 5 for skill bonus, by 10 for additional speed etc is not intuitive) works much better for me.

Sounds like we both have systems we both enjoy.

enjoy your games.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by tesuji
:-)

To give you a grasp of my situation...


Well as long as we are doing the grouphug biography thing... :-)

I started gaming in 77. Pre hardcover D&D. AD&D & Gamma World. I GMed in 80 and off and on since then and by '85 in the area I was at, there were no other games but TSR. In 85 I went to University of Oregon and discovered Rolemaster and HERO- called Champions then of course. I played/GMed role&spacemaster off and on for 3 years, but my primary love was HERO. Once I dropped rolemaster I never even looked at another game system but HERO until 1998. Mythus, sorta cool. But dead already(found it in the library). I had heard about V:TM and larping and such and pretty much ignored it. (I know lots about it now, sorta have to being the RPG at a game/card/comic shop).
I started GMing Hero in 87. Played in a 10 year long Champs game. Ran a 15 year Champions game. I also ran a 9 year long FH game- Transworld. The characters were a Cyber, an old West gal, a Jedi, a low powered superhero, a Cthuluian pulp investigator and a modern spy type (McGyver crossed with Bond), and some natives. That was really cool.
In my short run games (2 years or less) played a Ninja Hero, a couple of translational fantasy (usually a cyberpunk ending up in a fantasty world), a sliders crossdim thing, and a superpowers but not superheros agents of a crossdimensional orginization. GMed a couple of short run "traditional" fantasy games, and am gearing up to run one.

When HERO was in publishing limbo I got into d20 in a big way, and still keep it around for playing nostalgia D&D characters, converted over.

I buy just about any quality Superhero material for conversion (I have a full run V&V, superworld and Gurps supers, and am getting just about anything for SAS and M&M). As my sigline at RPG net says : HERO, SAS, M&M- man it is a good time to be a superhero gamer.

So yeah, I found my gamespot. Glad you have too. :-)


enought with the lovefest, back to arguing systems. :p

[zornwil]

Well, since I've now actually played (GMd) M&M I suppose I should update comments here.

M&M - ehhhhh, the jury's out. It is interesting, I like many of the notions of it, namely the way powers are constructed is of interest. The combat system seems to work but I would say it is absolutely NOT simpler than HERO, even discounting my lack of familiarity. Consider that in M&M you still have many modifiers to the die roll and that you also still have to track your "bruises" and you have all sorts of combat options...well it's plenty to think about during combat. That is not a criticism - in fact I think it's good that M&M recognizes that combat is not a simple proposition. But I definitely would say that this notion that it's "so much simpler than HERO" is groundless unless you really have that much trouble adding together a bunch of d6s.

I would say that one fear I had, that the graduation in PLs between 10 and 20 would make for way too powerful villains against PL10 heroes is unfounded. The way the percentages work out and the fact that there are many ways to damage othes goes a long way in creaitng a HERO-like balance. Of cousre that's asssuming that as a GM one pays attention.

And to that point, I think a GM has to pay a LOT more attention in M&M precisely because of it's lack of "granularity" (read specificity in my book). Many powers simply aren't all that balanced YET. I do think it's important to say "yet" because let's admit it's the 1st edition. I have no quarrel with that and don't "blame" Green Ronin/Super Unicorn. Actually one of the most interesting things will be to see how they react and grow. HERO has done an outstanding job in doing so even despite my MANY objections to what they've done - conceptually I admit (in fact even moreso now that I've played M&M) that they've been on the right track through each edition.

Of course our group is all brand new to this particular system, it's tenuous relationship to D&D notwithstanding (and to that degree none of us have played D&D in quite a while, over 2 decades for me personally). I thoroughly understand that there's lots we haven't gotten down yet and the gameplay was seriously bogged down by us constantly checking rules. That's on us of course. But even with that, regarding combat, given all the modifiers and choices I simply don't see it as such a "simple" system - which is fine with me. What I am concerned about is that the modifiers don't seem all that consistent. Not that HERO doesn't lack consistency in some respects, but it's fairly minor respects and the exceptions stand out. In M&M although there is of course consistency it's less so, so you have to scour your powers and such and figure out if you have all your appropriate modifiers on for hit and saving throws. And you have to safeguard more against double-dipping, ensuring you're not "stacking" powers.

But by all means the system has some good aspects as stated earlier above and seems workable. We'll play it at least a couple more times and see after that. I expect I'll probably drop it after a few runs and probably run the same characters/game in HERO, and that means its death in our group most likely as I'm the only one interested enough to GM - although Green Ronin should thank me because 2 of the players went and got their own books). But you never know, maybe after a few runs we'll play it every so often as a "break".

Oh, also, I'm thinking of "HEROizing" M&M as well as adopting a few power and feat ideas into HERO directly. M&M could (I think) be easily made a bit more granular and consistent in character creation and combat without losing its elegance I bet. But this is just speculative thought right now.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil
But by all means the system has some good aspects as stated earlier above and seems workable. We'll play it at least a couple more times and see after that. I expect I'll probably drop it after a few runs ...
Only one die! Ack! :D

I think it's a decent game, but ONE DIE!

Other than that, I might check out some of their supplements and do some idea mining.

I was in zornwil's game. Fun, just a bit wierd not playing Hero... I need to finish writing up how my hero looks under 5th.

[Rictor]

I like Hero character creation better then M&M, and I'm sure I always will. But M&M combat is MUCH faster. So I'm running M&M right now. I continue to buy all the Champions stuff because I can always use it, conversion is pretty easy. And I think if hero points are used correctly M&M does an excellent job simulating comic book combat.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Rictor
I like Hero character creation better then M&M, and I'm sure I always will. But M&M combat is MUCH faster. So I'm running M&M right now. I continue to buy all the Champions stuff because I can always use it, conversion is pretty easy. And I think if hero points are used correctly M&M does an excellent job simulating comic book combat.

So what is faster about combat for you?

[Rictor]

The combat system is simpler. You don't roll quite as often and when you do you only roll one die. End isn't something that's tracked in M&M so that's one more calculation to disregard.

I've heard people say, "I've run champions for twenty years. I'm sure I do it as fast as M&M." If those people tried M&M they may be suprised. I too have played champions for nearly twenty years. We've used every trick to speed up champions. I always used combat record sheets and I found combat ran a little quicker when I prerolled villian damage, but M&M was still quicker.

Granted my gaming group is usually six players so it's on the large side. But it really has worked out to be quicker for us.

Like I said though, Champs is more detailed system, so the munchkin/rules lawyer in the group doesn't like M&M much so far. But he's coming around because we can have a few major combats AND get in alot of roleplaying all in one night. Which makes me VERY happy as a GM. :)

Both systems are very good I think, but right now M&M works better for me.

I hope that helps...

thanks
Rictor

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Rictor
The combat system is simpler. You don't roll quite as often and when you do you only roll one die. End isn't something that's tracked in M&M so that's one more calculation to disregard.

I've heard people say, "I've run champions for twenty years. I'm sure I do it as fast as M&M." If those people tried M&M they may be suprised. I too have played champions for nearly twenty years. We've used every trick to speed up champions. I always used combat record sheets and I found combat ran a little quicker when I prerolled villian damage, but M&M was still quicker.

Granted my gaming group is usually six players so it's on the large side. But it really has worked out to be quicker for us.

Like I said though, Champs is more detailed system, so the munchkin/rules lawyer in the group doesn't like M&M much so far. But he's coming around because we can have a few major combats AND get in alot of roleplaying all in one night. Which makes me VERY happy as a GM. :)

Both systems are very good I think, but right now M&M works better for me.

I hope that helps...

thanks
Rictor

How do you roll less often? I am asking these questions genuinely to know, not to debate. In M&M as I understand it regular attacks (melee or ranged) require an attacker's roll to hit and then a defender's saving throw. That's 2 rolls. HERO requires a to-hit roll and then a damage roll. What is the difference aside from volume of dice? Most powers work in M&M that way as well, with the defender usually making a saving throw.

I understand the END thing.

I have only done one combat so far in M&M (well one-and-a-half), not enough to judge. However, having to figure out the variables on each die roll (modifiers, calculating if you hit or saved) seemed no different than HERO. Actually as we're inexperienced it was a lot slower (which DC is this? are you flat-footed now? how many stun points do you have?) because the variables seem somehow less consistent. But I entirely understand much of the latter is a matter of experience.

So other than END calculations - and the slightly more "one-punch" aspect of M&M combat although I think that is diminished by understanding both character creation and when to spend Hero Points - I don't see the speed gain conceptually let alone in game-play.

[bushido11]

For the whole combat speed between HERO and M&M, here's a little rundown of each (to the best of my ability):

HERO

-Either OCV - DCV + 11 is the to hit or less # (where you have to refer to a combatant's DCV for each attack, unless you have a combat tracking sheet) or OCV - 3d6 = DCV you hit (which I think is an easier option)
-If attack hits, you either have to count the BODY (for normal attacks, and it's pretty much necessary to count the 0s, 1s, and 2s for each d6, can bog down combat pretty quickly unless it's 2nd nature) or STUN multiplier (which is really not much of a hassle), and THEN factor in defenses
-If it's a nondamaging attack, compare total "damage" roll to stat being attacked for its effect.

M&M

-Roll d20 and add relevant modifers (it's all on the character sheet, and it is recommended that you already know what bonuses apply to the attack); total roll is the Defense he hit (merely comparing attack roll to Defense; comparable effectiveness with the OCV - 3d6 = DCV you hit formula)
-If attack hits, opponent makes damage save. The DC equals 15 + the damage bonus of attack. If he rolls higher, nothing happens. Fails by less than 6, stun or lethal hit. Fails by 6-11, hit + stunned result (+2 to get hit, no dodge bonuses from DEX or feats, can do nothing until next round). Fails by more than 11, K.O. (for stun) or Disabled (for lethal). Also, don't forget to apply any subsequent hits as a penalty to your damage save (representing diminishing ability to withstand blows).j
-For nondamaging attacks, you make the appropriate saving throw vs. DC 10 + power rank to determine effect.

Basically, it all goes down to determining damage. Adding 3d6 for to hit rolls is negligible, especially when using the OCV - 3d6 = DCV option. For determining nondamaging effects, M&M has the upperhand simply because of the one die roll vs. adding the d6s (which is still probably another negligible point). For HERO damage, either way, you're using 2 different methods to count damage taken (methods differ for both normal and killing damage), even though killing damage is much faster to calculate (usually less dice rolled, and simple multiplication; doesn't really bog down much). Normal damage, however, is the combat bogger; you roll more dice (usually) and you have to count the BODY. And then there's applying defenses, which slows down the process (defenses still do make sense though). And if you're using partial armor, either an Activation Roll (to see if the attack slips thru armor) or the dreaded Hit Location chart (shivers).

For M&M damage, primarily it's not much of a keeping track of hit points deal, but more of a "what kind of effect do I suffer from this attack" deal (even though you have to keep track of subsequent hits). In the damage save, a character's resilience + any form of armor or protection he has on is factored into one concept: the Damage save. Rather than counting dice, you subtract damage bonus from damage save roll(minus subsequent hits, which you have to keep track of) to determine effect. Normally, that wouldn't be much of a problem if all you were doing in HERO was just adding up the d6s for damage, but you have to do that TWICE in two different manners for normal damage, or roll the STUN multiplier afterwards for lethal damage, and then apply defenses. This is the main kicker that makes M&M combat faster than HERO combat (for one versed in both games). That, and the fact that M&M combats are over with quicker (usually) than HERO combat (usually). A lot of that is usually affected by the amount of hits that land and the opponent's capability of taking damage, but that's for another post.

[Agent X]

I'm not sure if combat should be over quickly. I know there are plenty who pretend role playing's stepchild is combat but I don't see anybody role playing in the game: "Grocery Store Employees." Supers are supposed to fight and their fights often should be epic in scale. This means they should last more than three punches once in a while.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm not sure if combat should be over quickly. I know there are plenty who pretend role playing's stepchild is combat but I don't see anybody role playing in the game: "Grocery Store Employees." Supers are supposed to fight and their fights often should be epic in scale. This means they should last more than three punches once in a while.

Please don't insult my Grocery Store Employees game. I'll have you know we've been at it for a decade and one of our players is now a manager of an entire chain. One killed himself overdosing on antidepressants and another just went homeless having long quit the store. It's really exciting. We are ROLE players!!!!!
:D

[zornwil]

Originally posted by bushido11
For the whole combat speed between HERO and M&M, here's a little rundown of each (to the best of my ability):

HERO

-Either OCV - DCV + 11 is the to hit or less # (where you have to refer to a combatant's DCV for each attack, unless you have a combat tracking sheet) or OCV - 3d6 = DCV you hit (which I think is an easier option)
-If attack hits, you either have to count the BODY (for normal attacks, and it's pretty much necessary to count the 0s, 1s, and 2s for each d6, can bog down combat pretty quickly unless it's 2nd nature) or STUN multiplier (which is really not much of a hassle), and THEN factor in defenses
-If it's a nondamaging attack, compare total "damage" roll to stat being attacked for its effect.

M&M

-Roll d20 and add relevant modifers (it's all on the character sheet, and it is recommended that you already know what bonuses apply to the attack); total roll is the Defense he hit (merely comparing attack roll to Defense; comparable effectiveness with the OCV - 3d6 = DCV you hit formula)
-If attack hits, opponent makes damage save. The DC equals 15 + the damage bonus of attack. If he rolls higher, nothing happens. Fails by less than 6, stun or lethal hit. Fails by 6-11, hit + stunned result (+2 to get hit, no dodge bonuses from DEX or feats, can do nothing until next round). Fails by more than 11, K.O. (for stun) or Disabled (for lethal). Also, don't forget to apply any subsequent hits as a penalty to your damage save (representing diminishing ability to withstand blows).j
-For nondamaging attacks, you make the appropriate saving throw vs. DC 10 + power rank to determine effect.

Basically, it all goes down to determining damage. Adding 3d6 for to hit rolls is negligible, especially when using the OCV - 3d6 = DCV option. For determining nondamaging effects, M&M has the upperhand simply because of the one die roll vs. adding the d6s (which is still probably another negligible point). For HERO damage, either way, you're using 2 different methods to count damage taken (methods differ for both normal and killing damage), even though killing damage is much faster to calculate (usually less dice rolled, and simple multiplication; doesn't really bog down much). Normal damage, however, is the combat bogger; you roll more dice (usually) and you have to count the BODY. And then there's applying defenses, which slows down the process (defenses still do make sense though). And if you're using partial armor, either an Activation Roll (to see if the attack slips thru armor) or the dreaded Hit Location chart (shivers).

For M&M damage, primarily it's not much of a keeping track of hit points deal, but more of a "what kind of effect do I suffer from this attack" deal (even though you have to keep track of subsequent hits). In the damage save, a character's resilience + any form of armor or protection he has on is factored into one concept: the Damage save. Rather than counting dice, you subtract damage bonus from damage save roll(minus subsequent hits, which you have to keep track of) to determine effect. Normally, that wouldn't be much of a problem if all you were doing in HERO was just adding up the d6s for damage, but you have to do that TWICE in two different manners for normal damage, or roll the STUN multiplier afterwards for lethal damage, and then apply defenses. This is the main kicker that makes M&M combat faster than HERO combat (for one versed in both games). That, and the fact that M&M combats are over with quicker (usually) than HERO combat (usually). A lot of that is usually affected by the amount of hits that land and the opponent's capability of taking damage, but that's for another post.

Just a brief add, throwing out hit points as optional, you still do have to track how many bruises you took as those decrement the save each time.

[tesuji]

So far, having run the same group of hero vetereans in multiple HERO5 combats, when i ran a HERo game, and multiple MnM games, i can observe the following.

The combats in MnM run quicker but take up more character actions (typically between 6-15 per characterfor a serious combat and maybe half that for warmups.)

The combats tend to be more dynamic because frankly more things tend to happen... stunning from getting hit is a reality and not just something that happens to the martial artists when they get unlucky or forget to roll.

The main reason that things play so much quicker is that the bookkeeping is so much lighter. The defense is already factored into the damage roll which requires a split second to "count" so the whole stun and body vs pd and so forth is gone and replaced by one simple calculation. Without worrying about whether you lost 1 stun or 7 stun or 12 stun, and tracking end, things go a lot quicker.

HEROes stay up for multiple hits, honestly much more than HERO produces if you use the standards in HERO5 which frankly means 2 hits usually takes out the non-brick. In MnM a typical HERo will probably take 4-5 hits to go down from comparable attacks... although within that span he will suffer probably a couple of brief "stuns" which produce some drama. Compared to our more common HERO/DND style combats, where you just track stun/hp loss until you go unconscious, this is a dramatic improvement.

In both games you have a variety of "non-bash 'em" ways to take someone out. Arguably those approaches are more effective in MnM than HERo, which also adds to the dynamic nature of the combat. in MnM a character cannot just ignore mental powers and expect to be able to suck up ego blasts with no protection, which he really can in hero as totally unprotected he expects no more damage from the HERO ego blast than he does from the comparable standard attack after defenses.

Depending on your POV, all of these differences could be seen as negatives as well, of course, but for me they are positives and seem to reflect the comics i read better.

YMMV.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by zornwil
Please don't insult my Grocery Store Employees game. I'll have you know we've been at it for a decade and one of our players is now a manager of an entire chain. One killed himself overdosing on antidepressants and another just went homeless having long quit the store. It's really exciting. We are ROLE players!!!!!
:D LOL. I have actually worked in a very large grocery store. I believe there would be enough sex and violence to keep some entertained.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by tesuji
So far, having run the same group of hero vetereans in multiple HERO5 combats, when i ran a HERo game, and multiple MnM games, i can observe the following.

The combats in MnM run quicker but take up more character actions (typically between 6-15 per characterfor a serious combat and maybe half that for warmups.)

The combats tend to be more dynamic because frankly more things tend to happen... stunning from getting hit is a reality and not just something that happens to the martial artists when they get unlucky or forget to roll.

The main reason that things play so much quicker is that the bookkeeping is so much lighter. The defense is already factored into the damage roll which requires a split second to "count" so the whole stun and body vs pd and so forth is gone and replaced by one simple calculation. Without worrying about whether you lost 1 stun or 7 stun or 12 stun, and tracking end, things go a lot quicker.

HEROes stay up for multiple hits, honestly much more than HERO produces if you use the standards in HERO5 which frankly means 2 hits usually takes out the non-brick. In MnM a typical HERo will probably take 4-5 hits to go down from comparable attacks... although within that span he will suffer probably a couple of brief "stuns" which produce some drama. Compared to our more common HERO/DND style combats, where you just track stun/hp loss until you go unconscious, this is a dramatic improvement.

In both games you have a variety of "non-bash 'em" ways to take someone out. Arguably those approaches are more effective in MnM than HERo, which also adds to the dynamic nature of the combat. in MnM a character cannot just ignore mental powers and expect to be able to suck up ego blasts with no protection, which he really can in hero as totally unprotected he expects no more damage from the HERO ego blast than he does from the comparable standard attack after defenses.

Depending on your POV, all of these differences could be seen as negatives as well, of course, but for me they are positives and seem to reflect the comics i read better.

YMMV. We don't use the defense standards offered by DOJ. We go with the old 2.5 x DC as a guideline. Our characters, villains and heroes, tend to do pretty well. It usually takes someone getting the "drop" or some sort of advantage on someone to turn the fight. I suggest to players playing standard bricks that they take vulnerability to mental stun attacks because this better reflects that they aren't anymore resistant than a normal hero to such attacks. Works pretty well when they listen.

I'm leary of systems like that. Intuitively, it sounds like it is harder for a player to manage his character as well in combat. I don't like games that become too controlled by luck. I like the opportunity to make my own.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by tesuji
So far, having run the same group of hero vetereans in multiple HERO5 combats, when i ran a HERo game, and multiple MnM games, i can observe the following.

The combats in MnM run quicker but take up more character actions (typically between 6-15 per characterfor a serious combat and maybe half that for warmups.)

The combats tend to be more dynamic because frankly more things tend to happen... stunning from getting hit is a reality and not just something that happens to the martial artists when they get unlucky or forget to roll.

The main reason that things play so much quicker is that the bookkeeping is so much lighter. The defense is already factored into the damage roll which requires a split second to "count" so the whole stun and body vs pd and so forth is gone and replaced by one simple calculation. Without worrying about whether you lost 1 stun or 7 stun or 12 stun, and tracking end, things go a lot quicker.

HEROes stay up for multiple hits, honestly much more than HERO produces if you use the standards in HERO5 which frankly means 2 hits usually takes out the non-brick. In MnM a typical HERo will probably take 4-5 hits to go down from comparable attacks... although within that span he will suffer probably a couple of brief "stuns" which produce some drama. Compared to our more common HERO/DND style combats, where you just track stun/hp loss until you go unconscious, this is a dramatic improvement.

In both games you have a variety of "non-bash 'em" ways to take someone out. Arguably those approaches are more effective in MnM than HERo, which also adds to the dynamic nature of the combat. in MnM a character cannot just ignore mental powers and expect to be able to suck up ego blasts with no protection, which he really can in hero as totally unprotected he expects no more damage from the HERO ego blast than he does from the comparable standard attack after defenses.

Depending on your POV, all of these differences could be seen as negatives as well, of course, but for me they are positives and seem to reflect the comics i read better.

YMMV.

I have not found that stunning is rare at all in HERO, rather it's an event that can and does happen and the PCs have to be aware of that. Commonly I've had battles with only 1 or 2 out of 5 or 6 PCs standing at the roughest point of the battle, the others stunned or between 0-10 stun down (so they do get recoveries soon). However, I don't use the "standard" HERO defense numbers (actually I don't even know what they are).

I've heard you say before this theme about how in HERO players can "ignore" mental blasts and such. Again, not my experience. Using atypical attacks like drains, transforms, and psionics can have dramatic impacts on certain characters.

However, given how your HERO games apparently run, I certainly don't debate your experiences, just indicating that my milage in HERO is indeed radically different from yours.

We will run M&M a few more times and see how our combat milage varies. Tesuji, one question for you - I presume you ran HERO prior to M&M for some period of time. How many M&M games did it take for you to find the combat was quicker than HERO for your group? I realize there are enough other differences that our group won't parallel yours, I'm just curious how long it took for your group to get M&M combat running efficiently.

[tesuji]

We ran two "sample combat" scenarios and then did prep work and began the campaign... I would say from recollection that everything fell into place around session three or so of the game. By then i have taken to making better notes on My NPCs so that when i told my players "he hit you" i was also saying " give me a damage save against a 27" or "give me a fort save of 18" and then things moved well, little looking up stuff needed. By then everyone had their own preferred character sheets and i had my ducks in a row and things went quickly. i also pretty much by then knew my PCs attacks so when firestorm said "i shoot you with my firebolt" i could be looking at my NPC for his saves and my roll for save was right on the heels of his roll to hit. (heck, sometimes i am rolling my save before he even rolls a hit.)

******************

In HERo (assuming standard ranges) a 60 ap mental blast does 21 stun to a totally underended character. A 12d6 Eb does 22 stun thru defenses on a normally defended character. Drain vs one stat at range is about 14 stun, 7 body, 14 ap of power etc that starts coming back very quickly. more like 10 cp in many cases where the stat can be chosen. i rarely see the case where UNDEFENDED characters against these non-bash 'em attacks drop enemies or render them incapable of threat quicker than those people with bashing attacks taking out stun in my HERo experiences.

YMMV.

[VictorVonDoom]

I am taking all 3 games: SAS , HERO & MM ...

[Farkling]

The thread that doesn't die......and here's my long contribution.

I played in a MnM game at Hexacon this year. With a GM who is a convert (though he didn't badmouth HERO very much...). My apologies if it is someone on the board here. :D

My observations as a PLAYER familiar with HERO and D20 Systems is as follows: MnM characters were easier to shorthand and explain out of the box. Our heroes weere all PL10. My Nick Fury Super-Agent type and the Power Armor character were both easily beaten up by circumstances we found ourselves in within freedom city.

Combaty was faster. We hit ground faster. Characters built at the same power level EASILY mopped up or survived the situations that wiped the Agent and the Armored fellow. One PC didn't even got to the final encounter. He had no way to travel to, communicate with, or find us.

I found the Mental Powers of the Priestess to be no more flexible than run of the mill Mental Illusions in HERO. The Ego Attack equivalents washed off the characters. The brick on our team got Mind Controlled and would have reduced two of us to PASTE if not for Hero points. But the Hero points only allowed survival. I also missed the ability to freely duck and dodge. The system felt very 'all-or-nothing' in terms of "he hit" "roll your save against DC20." No cover bonus, no chance to dodge. And the +5 on the damage save makes you feel like you had no way out. Mechanically the save IS the dodge, the defenses and the cover. I realize that as a GM, but it didn't fell right. I guess has HERO ruined me.

This is not a slam. I am not trying to rekindle the flamewar.
These are my observations. We chatted about the virtues and flaws of the systems for an hour or two after the adventure. I read through parts of the book. We discussed characters. I have this general observation after that conversation::

Armored Guy and Super Agent were not built using "framework" advantages, AND had "flaws" on the powers. The 'frameworking' in MnM seems to give more power off the rack than HERO normally does. The SuperMan type in our game was actually waaaaay tougher and more powerful than any of the other characters. And had some nifty additional powers to boot. At the same PL level. Some of that was excellent player, but some was inherently stronger and self re-enforcing abilities (stacking I believe). For the same character point base as the agent. It did feel very "DC Heroes" to me (from what I recall of my original encounters).

I might GM this game for my niece and her friends though. They are around 12-13. It would work for them without the scary math.
SHE prefers HERO martial arts, but that is prejudice...she's got a red belt and is working on brown.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Farkling

Our heroes weere all PL10. My Nick Fury Super-Agent type and the Power Armor character were both easily beaten up by circumstances we found ourselves in within freedom city.

MnM allows a wide variety of effects to be effective. i often find that first generated characters in MnM often have glaring vulnerabilities especially when built by people more experienced with HERo. HERo tends to teach you to focus on basics and ignore the rest and be fine... MnM does not play that way. A full power mental attack in MnM will wipe someone who has not got defenses as opposed to just being another hit in hero.

Originally posted by Farkling

Combaty was faster. We hit ground faster. Characters built at the same power level EASILY mopped up or survived the situations that wiped the Agent and the Armored fellow. One PC didn't even got to the final encounter. He had no way to travel to, communicate with, or find us.

With the variety of attacks effects, there are plentoy of RPS issues. I would have to see the characters but I personally would expect a nick fury design could well have trouble in a CON run game, particularly in the combat areas unless the design was done reasonably well and the player familiar with it.

In our first run thru, one character grabbed the martial artist archetype. He did nothing all night because he basically did not understand what his advantages were (OCV, DCV, feats like power attack and such) and as such just pucnhed away futiley. In later run throughs, these same combos of abilities prove quite effective.

It might be a better notion for say a COn game to take such characters and remove that decision from the player hands. Instead of giving him something like a floating +3 to be used for damage, defense and damage, go ahead and limit him to a couple of pre-bought options (like the hero MA system does.) That way, the new player does not have to worry about making as many in GAME decisions.

Originally posted by Farkling

I found the Mental Powers of the Priestess to be no more flexible than run of the mill Mental Illusions in HERO. The Ego Attack equivalents washed off the characters. The brick on our team got Mind Controlled and would have reduced two of us to PASTE if not for Hero points.

As an aisde, thats like saying a HERo character would have gotten creamed if not for STUN. HERO points in MnM are an integral part of the system, not just a sort of add on like some people seem to believe.

Originally posted by Farkling

But the Hero points only allowed survival. I also missed the ability to freely duck and dodge. The system felt very 'all-or-nothing' in terms of "he hit" "roll your save against DC20." No cover bonus, no chance to dodge.

Cover is a part of the game. its is fully detailed. In my game last night, cover played a large role as the heroes battled it out in a lab.

Dodge is done using any number of options... expertise, dodge, and attacking on the defensive or total defense. All of these, of course, require planning to use... you decide on your turn to apply them.

If you want reactive dodge on the other guy's turn, MnM provides this by spending a hero point to get +5 defense.

All in all, it sounds like a con game not very well explained to his new players by a Gm.

Originally posted by Farkling

And the +5 on the damage save makes you feel like you had no way out.

No idea what you mean here. As a guess, if your fury guy had a total DS of +5 without much protection or armor or force field in a combat focuses PL10 game, then I can very much understand how he felt overmatched in the combat area... unless there was something else to compensate.

it would be the same as bringing in a character with 1/3-1/2 the PD/ED and stun of the "normal" super in a heroes game without anything to offset the weakness. he would likely get mauled too.

Originally posted by Farkling

Mechanically the save IS the dodge, the defenses and the cover. I realize that as a GM, but it didn't fell right. I guess has HERO ruined me.

Probably, though, with a good GM, you could probably be salvaged.

Originally posted by Farkling

Armored Guy and Super Agent were not built using "framework" advantages, AND had "flaws" on the powers.

It does not sound like these character were quite apropriate for the game run, although this is based on very limited data.

Its relatiuvely easy to buildsuch characters and have them be combat effective, just as it is easy to build them to not be and have a scenario for the con where their other abilities are in focus. Skill-guy hacks into computer and disarms the bomb while bruiser and Flier keep the bad guys off him is just one example.

That said, i would not choose myself to add a skill/finesse fighter type to the list of PCs for a CON game where i expected to be running people thru their first game of MnM. Those character need you to understand the various and sundried options and use them wisely... which is not what you expect from new players at a con. A more standard "powers" oriented character is much easier to pick up and run at a glance without experience.

Originally posted by Farkling

The 'frameworking' in MnM seems to give more power off the rack than HERO normally does.

Its roughly, assuming best model, equivalent to multipowers/mod slots not ultras and EC. extra works like an EC and cuts the simplest powers by 50% but the more complex ones by 33% or 24% of cost. Stunts work like multipower slots and cut the typical best power by 80% (like a mod slot.)

The big difference is that in many cases you do not get doubled up benefits from tacking on flaws onto the frameworks. its not uncommon to see for instance powered armor as a device not gaining any cost savings from the framework... so no doubled savings from putting focus on your MP.

The biggest issue with a PA guy or any other character relying on flaws is thatits likely that the flaw might not appear in a single game session. So for a COn game, as GM, if any of the character were written up based on flaws I would need to do a little prep work to see that that flaw came up during that brief run, or else the flaws would look like free points.


Originally posted by Farkling

The SuperMan type in our game was actually waaaaay tougher and more powerful than any of the other characters. And had some nifty additional powers to boot. At the same PL level. Some of that was excellent player, but some was inherently stronger and self re-enforcing abilities (stacking I believe). For the same character point base as the agent. It did feel very "DC Heroes" to me (from what I recall of my original encounters).

without seeing the write ups, it may well have been that he had some errors. Stacking is specifically defined and limited by PL, so the differences are simply ones of character design or rules error.

TRhen again, i would expect a superman type build to be better at combat than an agent style build, but expect the agent to be better in other areas. if the single scenario focused on combat, then the differences would be obvious and seem imbalanced.

Originally posted by Farkling

I might GM this game for my niece and her friends though. They are around 12-13. It would work for them without the scary math.
SHE prefers HERO martial arts, but that is prejudice...she's got a red belt and is working on brown.


Once you get a little experience under your belt and recognize the differences in approach between hero and MnM, most of the issues you describe above should evaporate. In my group, all HERO veterans, it was around the third combat before everyone seemed to have caught on and stopped playing HERO using MnM rules and started playing MnM. From then on, it has been smooth sailing.

[bushido11]

From all of the responses I've read from this extremely long topic, for some reasons, HERO players seem to have a harder time learning M&M than non-HERO players. Maybe this approach will work: learn M&M not with a HERO frame of mind, but with a clean-slate frame of mind. Leave the terms of OCV, DCV, STUN, BODY, END, ECs, Multislots, etc. behind. Almost nothing in M&M is derived from some other attribute, unlike HERO. I've heard questions like, "How do I figure out what my base attack bonus is?" It says it in the book. Certain attributes (such as ability modifiers and feats) modify your attack roll as well as base attack bonus. Base attack bonus starts at +0 and costs 3 pp per +1. It's not hard, folks, it's not hard. STR modifies your melee attack rolls and DEX modifies your ranged attack rolls (I've presented some issues on that in the M&M forums, since an attack roll in M&M determines if your attack hits; a.k.a. a "touch" attack, but that's another issue for another time). Just about every base modifier starts at +0 (even the ability scores that are default at 10 have a +0 modifier). Use pp to boost them up. Once you've learned those basics, THEN you can bring in all of the complex concepts you've done/made/thought about in HERO and try to apply them to M&M. And another thing: learn the rules. "There's no cover bonus." Yes, there is. "It feels like an all-or-nothing." Do something different, don't just stand there and trade blows. Grab the guy, fight defensively, disarm him, trip him, use one of the many, many, feats available to you (if you have them), use a Hero Point. Your GM should work with you if you want to try something fancy, if he is a knowledgeable GM. Can M&M cover every nuanse that HERO can? No. It can still cover a whole lot more than any other d20 RPG and a whole lot of other RPGs out there, however. It's probably 2nd best to HERO in customization in a single book (for all of those who were going to say, "no, GURPS is.") To me, I find it easier to play, since I don't have years of HERO experience under my belt. Once again, to each his own, but before you make a critical review of M&M, give it 3-5 adventures (so that you can take time and familiarize yourself with not only the basics, but also the nuances). And remember, clean-slate frame of mind for basics, Then HERO frame of mind after 3-5 adventures.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by bushido11
From all of the responses I've read from this extremely long topic, for some reasons, HERO players seem to have a harder time learning M&M than non-HERO players. Maybe this approach will work: learn M&M not with a HERO frame of mind, but with a clean-slate frame of mind. Leave the terms of OCV, DCV, STUN, BODY, END, ECs, Multislots, etc. behind. Almost nothing in M&M is derived from some other attribute, unlike HERO. I've heard questions like, "How do I figure out what my base attack bonus is?" It says it in the book. Certain attributes (such as ability modifiers and feats) modify your attack roll as well as base attack bonus. Base attack bonus starts at +0 and costs 3 pp per +1. It's not hard, folks, it's not hard. STR modifies your melee attack rolls and DEX modifies your ranged attack rolls (I've presented some issues on that in the M&M forums, since an attack roll in M&M determines if your attack hits; a.k.a. a "touch" attack, but that's another issue for another time). Just about every base modifier starts at +0 (even the ability scores that are default at 10 have a +0 modifier). Use pp to boost them up. Once you've learned those basics, THEN you can bring in all of the complex concepts you've done/made/thought about in HERO and try to apply them to M&M. And another thing: learn the rules. "There's no cover bonus." Yes, there is. "It feels like an all-or-nothing." Do something different, don't just stand there and trade blows. Grab the guy, fight defensively, disarm him, trip him, use one of the many, many, feats available to you (if you have them), use a Hero Point. Your GM should work with you if you want to try something fancy, if he is a knowledgeable GM. Can M&M cover every nuanse that HERO can? No. It can still cover a whole lot more than any other d20 RPG and a whole lot of other RPGs out there, however. It's probably 2nd best to HERO in customization in a single book (for all of those who were going to say, "no, GURPS is.") To me, I find it easier to play, since I don't have years of HERO experience under my belt. Once again, to each his own, but before you make a critical review of M&M, give it 3-5 adventures (so that you can take time and familiarize yourself with not only the basics, but also the nuances). And remember, clean-slate frame of mind for basics, Then HERO frame of mind after 3-5 adventures.

I think it's good to post a critical review after the first game or first experiences because you get a lot of good responses on how it could be improved. In the spirit of the above comments, just don't be abrasive or say "MnM sucks!" when you've only given it a go once. Unless you're referring to certain fundamental basics and want for some reason to debate those, that's a different matter.

[Farkling]

Bushido::
I think my Mage, Exalted, HERO, experiences over the last few years have spoiled me. I like blow/counterblow possibilities instead of straight DC rolls. I've played nearly everything (I'm sorry I missed the Grocery Manager game though, that would've been different.)...heck, I even tried Living DragonStar at Hexacon. It was D20, but the setting had some veeery interesting possibilities.

The DnD game we alternate occasionally only works for me because I gave up having active interaction with my environment. Climbing up in the trees or scaling walls to launch attacks from above only works on the occasional orc band (by sowing confusion), and the penalties far outweigh the bonuses. I am buying tumbling like every other rogue now. It's more practical and useful. Forget the swashbuckler/sailor style and buy the useful combat skill listed in the book. MnM has that potential from what I saw of the book.

I LIKE the granularity in the HERO stuff. i like the ability to purchase my powers and skills however I wish. I hate the "chart a for the to hit bonus" in DnD. If a monster is 10' tall, I don't have to beat some unknown (or arbitrary FEELING) number on a D20 to hit it. Hitting it is easy...penetrating its defenses is hard...or hurting something that big is hard, but that takes an attentive and thoughtful GM who wants to manage every little detail on the fly. The D20 system promotes these exchanges::

"roll to hit"
"I got a 19 !!"
"you missed"
"It's as big as house and I MISSED it? HOW ??"
<and I've seen this frequently in D20 systems, with good AND bad GM's>

I prefer HERO for
"roll to hit, aw heck, its as big as a house, it's DCV is 2, roll damage"
"it shrugs off the attack, you don't even appear to even have penetrated it's defenses"

Now (IMHO) the character has a much firmer idea that he may be out of his league, as opposed to the giant he "missed"
Perhaps I have simply had a string of mediocre alternate GM's. The players all list me as first choice by a wide margin, with two others tied for second. The games I run have been much preferred with blow/counterblow systems...my D20 game was REAL unpopular, so I scragged it and went back to Mage. My Exalted game was dumped due to the fact that one of the players is SO much batter than me with Anime/Final Fantasy descriptions. He is more cinemtic. I've been GameMastering since '83, so I'm not a novice. I've run everything. Powers and Perils, Gamma World, Marvel Superheroes, MechWarrior, Traveller, DC Heroes, Villains n Vigilantes, Fantasy Hero, various DnD systems, HERO, Toon, Teenagers From Outer Space, Mage, Exalted, even a GURPS Horror campaign (later mined for Mage...damn good sourcebooks).

MnM just didn't "feel" right to me. And I really think it's because it feels like the dice are the only thing defending me. That could be a GM fault, true. Or the system may be designed FOR those GM's specifically. The brick had to roll like 10 to connect, and I had to roll a 25 to defend. Tres' unfair. Perhaps it was just a character design flaw. One of my friends was talking about picking it up, so I'm not closed minded yet... any port to get out of GameMastering all the time! I was really just offering my initial experience. My complete opinion (AS A GAMEMASTER) cannot be given until I have actually read the book cover to cover...and money is a little tight this year. My gut instinct is that I would've been disappointed if I'd bought MnM over HERO.

And I'm more of a simulationist or narrativist than powergamer. Go figure. :D

P.S. Now that I think about it...maybe MnM is more like the X-Men movies, y'know, cinematic. I'm not good with cinema action. I am good with Mage, Horror, Dark Champions, SuperSpies, SuperAgents, Anti-Mutant, Standard SuperHero, and full-bore Galactic Guardians. My Alternate WW2 storyline had a LOT going on "offscreen" that players loved, but it was political, occult, etc... The Axis even won the war after the PC's let a few plots mature. Wish we could've palyed the continuation of that campaign...it would've been impressive.

[Rene]

In my experience, these new superhero RPGs always follow the same path. Every single one of them has a handful of wonderful, wish-I-had-thought-about-it-first ideas, plus a handful of horribly vague rules and balance issues.

Like many other players, I really WANT to like them. I want a companion game to HERO, a lighter, less detailed, but fully playable superhero game. When I first meet these new RPGs, I'm stunned and dazzled by the handful of good ideas, like everyone else. "This is the ONE!" I say. And then I read and play it for a while, and I come down from my euphoria when I'm forced to accept the flaws I overlooked at first. "This is not the one." I cry.

To date, M&M's wonderful ideas have been the damage save, I'm sure pretty much everybody will agree (no more counting STUN, hit points, whatever), and the straightforward, clean way it handles skills, characteristics and combat.

But then we come to the bad part. M&M has balancing issues that make even SAS seem extraordinarily well-balanced. Now, I consider myself a roleplayer and a narrativist, but in M&M I have to make a conscious effort not to munchkin. Because it's just too easy.

Characteristics are ridiculously cheap. The temptation to max-out everything to 20 is just too great. By comparision, skills are terribly overpriced. I understand that they chose a specific route to represent supernormals like Batman and Cap America (buy lots of characteristics and a few skill points), still I'd prefer if they had left that choice to the players.

But that is not really bad. The really horrible thing about M&M are the feats, the one-size-fits-all, always-costs-2-points feats. Thought X-Ray Vision was too cheap in HERO? Boy, do I have news for you! In M&M you can have X-Ray Eyes for the stinking price of two points. I wonder how many supers don't have X-Ray Eyes in M&M world? Do you thought Megascale was abusive, even with it's inherent limits? Tremble in fear, because in M&M you can multiply your non-combat speed to infinity by spending the grand total of TWO points. I picture a superhero world where every flier in existence can cross the Earth in seconds. And there is much more in that vein.

SAS, even with its crazy results when you applied some PMVs and Defects to powers (you see, you added them to the final cost of the power, so it was highly expensive for trivial powers and really cheap for mega-powers), was a wonder of balance as compared to M&M. It's like HERO's new and abusive rules about doubling Multiform shapes, but spread all over the system.

IMO, that is why certain character types (like the Superman-like uberbrick) are awfully cheap in M&M and much more effective than Nick Fury/Batman-types.

Also, the system suffers from lack of definition in some traits. In M&M, you're either average looking or drop-dead gorgeous, you're either middle class or filthy rich. There is no gradation for these things, because Feats always cost the same 2 points.

My second big complaint is that M&M, just like SAS, Aberrant and many others, is really nifty for most of the common powers like Superstrength, Energy Blast, Flight, etc. But horribly vague in some of the less common abilities.

The good thing about all this? It's a first edition game, and many of the flaws are really easy to fix. Just change some costs around, make some feats less effective, explain some things a bit better, and you're all set for a wonderful game. But the bad part is that I fear many of these new RPGs will not survive long enough for a second edition. Aberrant already died. Meanwhile, back to old reliable HERO.

[bushido11]

To Farkling:

First of all, that example of missing as big as a house by rolling a 19 on the attack roll is bogus (unless that something is a VERY agile character on the defensive). Then again, seeing your second HERO example, it probably is a non-moving object as big as a house. Two ways you can handle that situation in M&M: first, you automatically hit. Common sense takes over. For the more dramatic, second way: Big as a house, that means it probably has a size category of either at least Gargantuan (-8 to Defense) and a DEX of 0 (-5 to Defense), so you have to roll a minimum of -3 on an attack roll (again, a guaranteed hit). Once again, if you know the rules (and if you have a descriptive GM), you have a better chance of figuring out the DC of completing such tasks. "He's making a visible effort to deflect your blows." That probably means that your opponent is either fighting defensively or on total defense, and you know you'll have to roll at least 2 more higher than usual.

I don't know about you, but if I were GMing a HERO combat, I wouldn't tell my players the DCV they had to hit. I'd use the alternate "11 + OCV - 3d6 = DCV you hit" method. That way, you can keep the DCV a secret from your PCs.

Also, in HERO, you have a guideline on how good you are at certain things (your skill rolls), but those can easily be modified by the GM according to the difficulty of the task. Now if the GM goes on and tells you the effective roll needed to succeed at every task, that's on him. It's not much different for d20 games. Just about every d20 book out there has a chart called "Difficulty Class Examples" that GMs can use as a guideline to how difficult something is and an appropriate DC to assign to the task. In HERO, this is handled by applying modifiers to the skill roll.

As for the brick easily hitting you and you having a hell of a time to defend, that sounds like a character design flaw. And as for M&M not feeling right to you, to each his own, my friend...to each his own.

To Rene:

On the costs of attributes (mainly abilities, skills, and some feats), I understand where you're coming from. I feel that abilities are priced wrong, because some abilties cover more facets than others. That's why I've modified the costs of STR, DEX, and CON to 2 pp per +1 over 10 and WIS to 1.5 pp per +1 over 10 (and you can get back that same amount of pp if you lower the ability score below 10). For skills, I have them at 0.5 pp per +1, due to the formula of 1 feat = +2 to a saving throw = +4 to a skill. In the errata, it talks about changing the price on skills, which I have taken the liberty to do.

About all feats costing 2pp per feat, the great neutralizer to that is the prerequsities to acquring those feats. You don't just pay 2pp to get Power Attack; you need 13 STR first. You want Whirlwind Attack? Get like 4 other feats, along with DEX 13 and INT 13 first. About the Super-Feats, they made their first appearance in M&M and they seem like "powers without ranks". For example, the Immunity super-feats work alot like the Life Support support powers in HERO, except HERO has them more detailed. SAS Tri-Stat version, I haven't seen, but I'm not too keen on a max stat of 20 and only 3 stats (Body, Mind, and Soul). Maybe for BESM, but not for supers.

In M&M, you're not either average looking or drop-dead gorgeous. Sure, you can take the Attractive feat, but your Charisma score partly affects your appearance as well. You can also explain some ranks to Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate based on your looks. As for your finances, you can repeatedly take the Wealth feat and be even filthier rich, but M&M assumes you're working stiff; it really doesn't make a big issue on money. M&M doesn't advertise itself as being the ultimate universal RPG as HERO does, just a superhero RPG without a specific campaign setting. As for traveling at light-speeds, you're probably refering to Space Flight. If you read the description, it only applies to flying thru a vacuum of space (not on ground, or underwater, or even in the sky, but thru a vacuum of space) you still need Immunity super-feats to survive in that environment. The problem here is that you seem to think that 2 pp in M&M equals 2 cp in HERO. That is not the case. To me, it seems that you can get Characteristics up for dirt-cheap (except for DEX), but the thing is that there are more characteristics (8) and they only make a difference (for CHAR rolls and Skill rolls) when the ones digit is either 3 or 8. As for figuring out derived characteristics, that's a different story. I would like to see some correlation between M&M's pp (power points, not urine)to HERO's cp in the form of a ratio.

Another issue on the "getting your attributes for dirt-cheap" is that starting power of a character. A PL 10 M&M character is not equivalent to a 100-pt HERO character. A PL 10 M&M character might be equivalent to a 300-pt HERO character, but I'm not sure, because I don't have that correlation as I have mentioned above (it's a very rough guess I'm making).

As far as the horribly vague abilities, I'd like to see some examples.

You are right, that it is a first-edition game and many of the flaws are easy to fix. Unlike you, I didn't start out with many years of HERO under my belt, which is a shame actually because I've never been introduced to it. (I had to beat my head against the wall trying to fix AD&D, which for some baffling reason, my friends still prefer over 3e, even though I've explained how all of the concepts they've though can be done with 3e.) They ended up saying because it was just their personal preference. They can stick to their THAC0 and save vs. paralysis/petrification for all I care. Now to get back on track, I personally don't see M&M being washed away as these other superhero RPGs. For HERO fans, stick with HERO, because that's what works best for you. I, personally, would like to partake in a HERO game as a PC first and then as a GM (to teach my other friends, because the big black book indeed scared them; they seem to thing that they have to learn every page in an RPG and don't even bother reading have of what they should read. Heck, they were still rolling a d10 for initiative in 3e D&D!) And that's enough of that.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Understanding there is no "one" and never will be, just a few points...

Originally posted by Rene

Characteristics are ridiculously cheap.

Some are too cheap, some aren't. The decision to remove characteristics from the "price by effects" accounting to make them simpler was an interesting one. i am not thrilled with it either, much like some seem unhappy with the char costs in herom aka the frequent str too cheap threads and even comments from the designer that figured characteristics are more trouble than they are worth and such.

Originally posted by Rene

By comparision, skills are terribly overpriced.
I understand that they chose a specific route to represent supernormals like Batman and Cap America (buy lots of characteristics and a few skill points), still I'd prefer if they had left that choice to the players.

I have found their standard system to work well even for skilled types. mnM is more FX driven than HERo and works well as long as this is kept in mind.

As for leaving it to the players, they do indeed have option skill cost rules, which i do not prefer because they seem to make skills way too cheap and the most common observation i have seen is all they did was allow players to spend more points on powers.

In truth tho, the relative value of skills vs powers is wholly dependent on the scenarios the Gm puts together. So there will never be a system that sets a value between the two that works for everyone.

Originally posted by Rene

But that is not really bad. The really horrible thing about M&M are the feats, the one-size-fits-all, always-costs-2-points feats. Thought X-Ray Vision was too cheap in HERO? Boy, do I have news for you! In M&M you can have X-Ray Eyes for the stinking price of two points. I wonder how many supers don't have X-Ray Eyes in M&M world?

In my MnM world maybe 1 super in 10 has xray vision or some other incarnation of see thru stuff senses. very few of their provided characters have it.

its looking suspiciously like their characters and mine were built with concept in mind.

Originally posted by Rene

Do you thought Megascale was abusive, even with it's inherent limits? Tremble in fear, because in M&M you can multiply your non-combat speed to infinity by spending the grand total of TWO points.

Lets be a little more accurate.

In MnM i can buy the ability to fly tactically per round 20 "squares" covering 100' and the ability to fly ~80 miles in 12 seconds for 22 points out of 150 or snout 15% of starting standard hero points.

In HERO, i can buy the ability to fly 20 hexes tactically per phase covering around 125' and the ability to fly 200 km in 12 seconds (assuming a mere base speed of 2) for 43 cp out of 350 or 12% of the starting points for a typical super.

By leaving out the comparison of starting points, you may have accidentally left the impression you thought this was cheaper in MnM than in HERo... which of course is not true if one pays attention to the relative value of a "point" between the two systems.

The biggest difference in the two is that in MnM you need the base speed which is rather expensive as the megascale gain is tied exponentially into the tactical flight... whereas in hero you could skip the expensive base flight and just buy the megascale, assuming no concept issues in your way.

Originally posted by Rene

I picture a superhero world where every flier in existence can cross the Earth in seconds. And there is much more in that vein.

I didn't any more than i did when i saw the HERo megascale rules.

Originally posted by Rene

SAS, even with its crazy results when you applied some PMVs and Defects to powers (you see, you added them to the final cost of the power, so it was highly expensive for trivial powers and really cheap for mega-powers), was a wonder of balance as compared to M&M. It's like HERO's new and abusive rules about doubling Multiform shapes, but spread all over the system.

No real comment about SAS as i do not have enough familiarity with it, but in my experience having been running a game for a while now, it has much fewer serious balance problems than you seem to characterize it as.

Originally posted by Rene

IMO, that is why certain character types (like the Superman-like uberbrick) are awfully cheap in M&M and much more effective than Nick Fury/Batman-types.

More effective in combat? I guess that depends on the design, although personally, i would expect that a character built to be more versatile and skilled would ought to be lesss effective in combat than a character built with mostly combat based powers.

I find neither type to be unworkable or disadvantaged unreasonably using the MNM rules in my experience.

In truth tho, again, the relative value of "skilled characters" vs "powered characters" will be set by the challenges they are presented with. If a character spent 22 points on skills while another spent 22 points on the flight mentioned above i would hope the GM would script challenges to make that 22 points in skills show up as worth it.


Originally posted by Rene

Also, the system suffers from lack of definition in some traits. In M&M, you're either average looking or drop-dead gorgeous, you're either middle class or filthy rich. There is no gradation for these things, because Feats always cost the same 2 points.

MnM is not intended to make the accounting system handle fine details, and leaves a lot more room to play with FX. If you want to take appearance for instance, MNM has three basic break points which are normal, ugly and beautiful. the ranges in between these are simply left for FX and not worth being handled as an accounting issue.

I LIKE the lack of minutia in the accounting system myself. Its may not be to everyone's taste.

Originally posted by Rene

My second big complaint is that M&M, just like SAS, Aberrant and many others, is really nifty for most of the common powers like Superstrength, Energy Blast, Flight, etc. But horribly vague in some of the less common abilities.

I find it better than HERo in this regard. HERo always seemed to me to try and force the unusual abilities into its mold, whereas with MnM its simply a matter of definition of effect.

MnM plays much more to my sense of balance in that with a fairly general "one effect" = "one cost" type of arrangement it keeps the costing even. In truth the relative value will be set by the play and the scripts so this is much more fluid for my tastes.

Originally posted by Rene

The good thing about all this? It's a first edition game, and many of the flaws are really easy to fix. Just change some costs around, make some feats less effective, explain some things a bit better, and you're all set for a wonderful game. But the bad part is that I fear many of these new RPGs will not survive long enough for a second edition. Aberrant already died.

Fourtunately MNM seems to be going strong. I do agree that like practically every game that made it to a second edition, MnM will benefit from a second edition. As long as it keeps to its principles and uses a 2e to clean up some bits, I think it will be great.


Originally posted by Rene

Meanwhile, back to old reliable HERO.


Or not, depending on ones tastes.

[Nato]

Tesuji, just out of curiosity, why do you hang out on the Hero boards? It seems like you don't like the system much so I just kind of wonder what's the point of frequenting the message boards of a game system you don't like or play (don't know if either of those are the case). Do you actually play Hero?

[Rene]

Tesuji, first let me make it clear that, when I'm complaing about something I see as a flaw in M&M, I'm not automatically implying it's handled so much better in HERO.

Quite the contrary.

HERO has it's obvious flaws, but the thing is, I'm used to HERO. When I see a new superhero game that has so much potential, but then, to my eyes, falls short of what it might have been, I feel heartbroken all over again.



Originally posted by Tesuji
Understanding there is no "one" and never will be, just a few points...

Why not? I think several superhero games in the past few years came really close. Aberrant, SAS, M&M, all had it's pretty good points. What frustrates me more in M&M is how easily some of those flaws could have been fixed.



Originally posted by Tesuji
Some are too cheap, some aren't. The decision to remove characteristics from the "price by effects" accounting to make them simpler was an interesting one. i am not thrilled with it either, much like some seem unhappy with the char costs in herom aka the frequent str too cheap threads and even comments from the designer that figured characteristics are more trouble than they are worth and such

Yeah, STR in HERO is underpriced. *Shrugs* I never said it wasn't. In M&M all Chars are underpriced, with the possible exceptions of Charisma and Wisdow (and even that depends on the campaign and how much combat-oriented it is).

If they wanted to keep all chars equally priced, I'm okay with that. Simplicity is a noble goal. Just up all their prices then.



Originally posted by Tesuji
As for leaving it to the players, they do indeed have option skill cost rules, which i do not prefer because they seem to make skills way too cheap and the most common observation i have seen is all they did was allow players to spend more points on powers.

In truth tho, the relative value of skills vs powers is wholly dependent on the scenarios the Gm puts together. So there will never be a system that sets a value between the two that works for everyone.

Don't agree. Most skills are superseded by powers. If you can go Desolid, then Lockpicking isn't so great. Same with Invisibility vs. Stealth, Telepathy vs. Interrogation, Flight vs. Climbing, Cyberkinesis vs. Computer Programming, Superhealing vs. Medicine. Skills are "poor man's powers". The edge skill-guy has over power-guy isn't in the different kinds of situations they can tackle. It's that skill-guy has lots more skills than power-guy has powers. And to achieve this effect, skills MUST be way cheaper than powers.

When you charge so much for skills, you handicap the skill-guy in favor of the power-guy. Even HERO is a bit broken in this, IMO, as the Skills are a bit more expensive than they should be as compared to Characteristics. M&M takes this to even further levels of imbalance.

Granted, I think this is not so much of a problem in four-colour games. Want to be Batman? Just buy 20 INT and 20 DEX and don't worry about high ranks in skills. You can trust your chars to "simulate" a high skilled character. Things get harder in a Wild Cards kind of campaign though. There you have characters that obviously do not have such obscene levels in their chars, and still have lots of skills.



Originally posted by Tesuji
In my MnM world maybe 1 super in 10 has xray vision or some other incarnation of see thru stuff senses. very few of their provided characters have it.

its looking suspiciously like their characters and mine were built with concept in mind.

Yeah, and the clear implication is that all the others are munchkins. What a shame! :)

Look, we can talk a lot about concept and stuff. Jeez, I can use ANY system and don't worry about balance if I keep the concept in my mind. Yes, I know it already.

But that is a lame excuse.

Here, here, I get this system were "Cooking Skills" costs 1000 pts per level, while "Omnipotency" costs 1 pt per level, but it don't matters, because I have my concept firmly set in my head and...

Just because responsible, story-driven players like you and me are bound to follow their concepts, it don't means we shouldn't try to arrive at a semblance of balance in the systems used. Responsible players will always be responsible players.



Originally posted by Tesuji
Lets be a little more accurate.

In MnM i can buy the ability to fly tactically per round 20 "squares" covering 100' and the ability to fly ~80 miles in 12 seconds for 22 points out of 150 or snout 15% of starting standard hero points.

In HERO, i can buy the ability to fly 20 hexes tactically per phase covering around 125' and the ability to fly 200 km in 12 seconds (assuming a mere base speed of 2) for 43 cp out of 350 or 12% of the starting points for a typical super.

Like I said above, I never implied that HERO is so much better than M&M in this. I'm just more used to HERO. If I'm to have a new game, it's kinda depressing that it has the same old flaws that plagued other games.



Originally posted by Tesuji
MnM is not intended to make the accounting system handle fine details, and leaves a lot more room to play with FX. If you want to take appearance for instance, MNM has three basic break points which are normal, ugly and beautiful. the ranges in between these are simply left for FX and not worth being handled as an accounting issue.

I LIKE the lack of minutia in the accounting system myself. Its may not be to everyone's taste.

Yes, but there must be a middle way between three break points and a million break points, don't you agree?

Also, I find that it wouldn't take superhuman levels of accounting to have, say, five or ten levels of appearance or wealthy, while it could increase the definition of the traits a lot.

It just seems suspiciously like they tried to use a pre-existing rule device (the feat structure) and cram everything from some powers to wealth to appearance into it. Cram stuff that didn't necessarily belong into the feat's structure.



Originally posted by Tesuji
I find it better than HERo in this regard. HERo always seemed to me to try and force the unusual abilities into its mold, whereas with MnM its simply a matter of definition of effect.

MnM plays much more to my sense of balance in that with a fairly general "one effect" = "one cost" type of arrangement it keeps the costing even. In truth the relative value will be set by the play and the scripts so this is much more fluid for my tastes.


Fluid games can be great. I just think games should make their minds about what they are. HERO has made it's choice. It tries to define minutely what each power can do. Godlike and FUDGE, for instance, are free-form in most of their powers. There is a theme that runs throughout the entire game. That is fine.

The problem I see with SAS, M&M, Aberrant, etc. is that some things are minutely defined, while others are left vague and unclear. The more popular a power is, the more defined it will be. Strength, Flight, Energy Blast, almost always are clearly defined. More abstract powers, that in HERO would be considered Mental Powers, Adjustment Powers, or Elemental Controls, are written in a way that is left open to lots of interpretations. But I have to admit this is a much greater problem in SAS and Aberrant. M&M has the d20 engine going for it to represent nicely most effects.

Still it seems to me like the writers have given a lot of thought to the basic powers, and then rushed things along to publish the game soon and didn't playtested the other powers enough.



Originally posted by Tesuji
Fourtunately MNM seems to be going strong. I do agree that like practically every game that made it to a second edition, MnM will benefit from a second edition. As long as it keeps to its principles and uses a 2e to clean up some bits, I think it will be great.

I really hope so. I had high expectations for this game and felt specially frustrated by some things I see as "silly, easy to avoid" mistakes.

[Rene]

Originally posted by bushido11
On the costs of attributes (mainly abilities, skills, and some feats), I understand where you're coming from. I feel that abilities are priced wrong, because some abilties cover more facets than others. That's why I've modified the costs of STR, DEX, and CON to 2 pp per +1 over 10 and WIS to 1.5 pp per +1 over 10 (and you can get back that same amount of pp if you lower the ability score below 10). For skills, I have them at 0.5 pp per +1, due to the formula of 1 feat = +2 to a saving throw = +4 to a skill. In the errata, it talks about changing the price on skills, which I have taken the liberty to do.

That sounds reasonable. I think most flaws in M&M can be fixed easily. That is both good and bad. It's good because it don't takes too much effort. It's bad because it's frustrating. They could have done the perfect game with just a few corrections.



Originally posted by bushido11
About all feats costing 2pp per feat, the great neutralizer to that is the prerequsities to acquring those feats. You don't just pay 2pp to get Power Attack; you need 13 STR first. You want Whirlwind Attack? Get like 4 other feats, along with DEX 13 and INT 13 first. About the Super-Feats, they made their first appearance in M&M and they seem like "powers without ranks". For example, the Immunity super-feats work alot like the Life Support support powers in HERO, except HERO has them more detailed. SAS Tri-Stat version, I haven't seen, but I'm not too keen on a max stat of 20 and only 3 stats (Body, Mind, and Soul). Maybe for BESM, but not for supers.

Like I said to Tesuji, I think the problem lies in trying to fit everything into "feats". The feats worked nicely in D&D as special moves and such, with the prerequisites structure.

But most power feats don't have many prerequisites. I think that is fine for limited-utility traits, like immunities. Not so fine for highly useful stuff like X-Ray Vision and Interplanetary Flight.




Originally posted by bushido11
In M&M, you're not either average looking or drop-dead gorgeous. Sure, you can take the Attractive feat, but your Charisma score partly affects your appearance as well. You can also explain some ranks to Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate based on your looks. As for your finances, you can repeatedly take the Wealth feat and be even filthier rich, but M&M assumes you're working stiff; it really doesn't make a big issue on money. M&M doesn't advertise itself as being the ultimate universal RPG as HERO does, just a superhero RPG without a specific campaign setting.

Well, you can work around it, surely. But it would have been nicer to have a more elegant solution. It wouldn't be too hard to create, I don't know, five to ten separate levels of feats to represent gradation in things so obviously in need of gradation, like looks and wealth.



Originally posted by bushido11
As for traveling at light-speeds, you're probably refering to Space Flight. If you read the description, it only applies to flying thru a vacuum of space (not on ground, or underwater, or even in the sky, but thru a vacuum of space) you still need Immunity super-feats to survive in that environment.

Nah, I'm refering to Super-Flight. For the price of one feat you can double your non-combat speed a number of times equal your level in Flight. That is a hell of a lot for 2 points. If you have Flight 10, you just buy Super-Flight and you can fly 4000 times as fast!



Originally posted by bushido11
The problem here is that you seem to think that 2 pp in M&M equals 2 cp in HERO. That is not the case. To me, it seems that you can get Characteristics up for dirt-cheap (except for DEX), but the thing is that there are more characteristics (8) and they only make a difference (for CHAR rolls and Skill rolls) when the ones digit is either 3 or 8. As for figuring out derived characteristics, that's a different story. I would like to see some correlation between M&M's pp (power points, not urine)to HERO's cp in the form of a ratio.

No, I think some feats are unbalancing inside M&M's own price structure. I'm not correlating this to HERO at all. So, let's say I want to buy five more levels in Elasticity. That is 15 PPs. Fair enough. But then I can use 15PPs to have X-Ray Vision, Immortality, Super-Flight, Space-Flight, and four more Alternate Forms.

That is just ridiculous.

HERO has it's balance issues, surely, but nothing as bad as that, I'm afraid.



Originally posted by bushido11
As far as the horribly vague abilities, I'd like to see some examples.

I'll concede the point. I think I exaggerated in this. Sorry.



Originally posted by bushido11
You are right, that it is a first-edition game and many of the flaws are easy to fix. Unlike you, I didn't start out with many years of HERO under my belt, which is a shame actually because I've never been introduced to it. (I had to beat my head against the wall trying to fix AD&D, which for some baffling reason, my friends still prefer over 3e, even though I've explained how all of the concepts they've though can be done with 3e.) They ended up saying because it was just their personal preference. They can stick to their THAC0 and save vs. paralysis/petrification for all I care. Now to get back on track, I personally don't see M&M being washed away as these other superhero RPGs. For HERO fans, stick with HERO, because that's what works best for you. I, personally, would like to partake in a HERO game as a PC first and then as a GM (to teach my other friends, because the big black book indeed scared them; they seem to thing that they have to learn every page in an RPG and don't even bother reading have of what they should read. Heck, they were still rolling a d10 for initiative in 3e D&D!) And that's enough of that.

I like HERO, but I'm not one of those "HERO will always be the best for me, no matter what" types. I really wanted a lighter system. Maybe with HERO I just know already how to circunvent most of the traps, and I enjoy the system's flexibility. It's not like I wouldn't change some stuff in HERO if I were given Steve Long's job.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Nato
Tesuji, just out of curiosity, why do you hang out on the Hero boards? It seems like you don't like the system much so I just kind of wonder what's the point of frequenting the message boards of a game system you don't like or play (don't know if either of those are the case). Do you actually play Hero?

I hang out on a number of game boards, even for games i am not currently in.

Over the years i have found that i find interesting ideas from discussions with fellow gamers and enjoy sharing ideas and experiences.

I am not currently in a hero game, but i did run a HERo 5 campaign and have run HERo thru the years more than any other game system with over a half dozen superhero campaigns running an average of about a year each and three fantasy hero campaigns averaging about a year each as well. these ran thru editions three-four... oh wait add 1 more hero campaign using 5th that did not last a year, more like 9 months and there was the new millenium campaign which lasted 2 years but we wont get into that for fear of riling the fuzion haters.

I Gmed my first hero campaign in 1983.

I have an editorial contribution credit on a published hard copy champions 4th ed product (well it did have some 5th ed stuff too iirc) and had three article published in digital hero way back when (i think it was in the cybergames days.)

So, is this enough to qualify me to post on these hallowed boards or do i need more?

just curious... how many other people on BBS do you ask for explanations as to their posting?

[Nato]

Originally posted by tesuji
So, is this enough to qualify me to post on these hallowed boards or do i need more?

just curious... how many other people on BBS do you ask for explanations as to their posting?

Dude, just asking a question. Don't have to get testy.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Rene

Tesuji, first let me make it clear that, when I'm complaing about something I see as a flaw in M&M, I'm not automatically implying it's handled so much better in HERO.

Quite the contrary.

HERO has it's obvious flaws, but the thing is, I'm used to HERO. When I see a new superhero game that has so much potential, but then, to my eyes, falls short of what it might have been, I feel heartbroken all over again.

U am very glad you clarified that. with the obvious moving away from MNM followed by back to reliable hero closer at the end, it did seem like you might have been gibing that notion.

Thanks

Originally posted by Rene

Why not? I think several superhero games in the past few years came really close. Aberrant, SAS, M&M, all had it's pretty good points. What frustrates me more in M&M is how easily some of those flaws could have been fixed.

There wont be a "one" because there are more than "one" of us... the buyers... and we all want different things. Every published game system is a comproimise designed to serve the most of us it can the best it can which means that without fail it is doomed to not serve some of us as well.

My demands, given my preference to bring in a brand new player each campaign, will definitely differ from say a former group i gamed with of all hardcore HERO veterans who would have no problem with as complex a system as HERo since they have already climbed over its steep learning curve. heck, i have even seen people on these boards touting the learning curve as a good thing because it gives the veteran an edge in the games which they felt was just reward for the "investment" they had... getting out of it something for what they put into it, or some such. There would almost never be a game system that satisfied both me and that poster.

Originally posted by Rene

Yeah, STR in HERO is underpriced. *Shrugs* I never said it wasn't. In M&M all Chars are underpriced, with the possible exceptions of Charisma and Wisdow (and even that depends on the campaign and how much combat-oriented it is).

Thats a defite difference from how i see it. I would have thought CHA and INT. Wisdom adds to saves as well as skills so I would never have thought to list it as one of the lesser in the bang fer bucks.

We defitely have different views here.

Originally posted by Rene

If they wanted to keep all chars equally priced, I'm okay with that. Simplicity is a noble goal. Just up all their prices then.

And they would have had as many complaining about cha and int being over priced... possibly even here on these boards. :-)

Originally posted by Rene

Don't agree. Most skills are superseded by powers. If you can go Desolid, then Lockpicking isn't so great. Same with Invisibility vs. Stealth, Telepathy vs. Interrogation, Flight vs. Climbing, Cyberkinesis vs. Computer Programming, Superhealing vs. Medicine. Skills are "poor man's powers". The edge skill-guy has over power-guy isn't in the different kinds of situations they can tackle. It's that skill-guy has lots more skills than power-guy has powers. And to achieve this effect, skills MUST be way cheaper than powers.

I do not agree with your overall assessment. Sure, some skills are in some circumstances superceded by powers, but i would hardly consider the majority of them are. Also, a given skill is cheaper than a given power in MnM (and for the most part in hero.)

What MnM does for the skill based character is to make having multiple skills of a given type cheaper, breaking better at about 3 skills. Thats what the skill bonuses in the super atts are there for.

I felt the characters i generated with "heavy skills" to be good viable characters. I have not found there to be a problem in MnM with those. I certainly have not found powers trumping skills to bve any big problem or any bigger a problem perhaps than in other supers systems i have used.

YMMV

Originally posted by Rene

When you charge so much for skills, you handicap the skill-guy in favor of the power-guy. Even HERO is a bit broken in this, IMO, as the Skills are a bit more expensive than they should be as compared to Characteristics. M&M takes this to even further levels of imbalance.

Again, the skill heavy characters i have created have not been "handicapped" in play.

I can understand how they could be, since points spent on skills often translates to "non-combat points" and these will come into play more or less dependent on the GMs scripts. All Gms tend to script combats for supers games. Not all GMs tend to script non-combat situations where skills are useful.

Originally posted by Rene

Granted, I think this is not so much of a problem in four-colour games. Want to be Batman? Just buy 20 INT and 20 DEX and don't worry about high ranks in skills. You can trust your chars to "simulate" a high skilled character. Things get harder in a Wild Cards kind of campaign though. There you have characters that obviously do not have such obscene levels in their chars, and still have lots of skills.

Actually, one thing to remember is that in MnM using super-atts to "buy" skills ranks across a wide range is not just a substitute but the deliberate design decision. its not a workaround, but a preferred intional aspect. Its very much like it works in hero, where after the second skill using a given stat, its more EFFICIENT to buy a skill level or a 5 point of att to raise the skills than to buy the raises for each skill individually. both system recognize that lots of skill in many related skills should be discounted.

Originally posted by Rene

Yeah, and the clear implication is that all the others are munchkins. What a shame! :)

No implication about anyone else. What i am trying to get across is that the system was built with the notion in mind of characters built to concept and the game overseen by a GM, not in a purely mechanuical best math mode.

The fact that all the characters do not have "see invis" or "see thru walls" is a pretty clear indication of this to me.

Your computer was built and designed with the notion that a human of at least average intelligence would be using it. When used that way, it probably works fine. if a 600 lb gorilla were to try and use it, it probably would fail one or more stress tests.

Same principle.

Originally posted by Rene

Look, we can talk a lot about concept and stuff. Jeez, I can use ANY system and don't worry about balance if I keep the concept in my mind. Yes, I know it already.

But that is a lame excuse.

I do not find it an excuse at all. YMMV.

Originally posted by Rene

Here, here, I get this system were "Cooking Skills" costs 1000 pts per level, while "Omnipotency" costs 1 pt per level, but it don't matters, because I have my concept firmly set in my head and...

well, that would be a flawed system. Why, because cooking would obviously be included in omnipotence. Charging less for b which has everything a has and more is a flaw.

Fortunately, MnM does not have that type of egregious problem. HERo still has some, like the tale of two tails and tale of two bases examples hased over several times now, but not many.

Originally posted by Rene

Just because responsible, story-driven players like you and me are bound to follow their concepts, it don't means we shouldn't try to arrive at a semblance of balance in the systems used. Responsible players will always be responsible players.

I find mnM to have more than a semblance of balance.

Originally posted by Rene

Like I said above, I never implied that HERO is so much better than M&M in this. I'm just more used to HERO. If I'm to have a new game, it's kinda depressing that it has the same old flaws that plagued other games.

I would suggest you consider that if new games repeat the same *to your perspective* flaws then it might be an aspect of your tastes or perspectives differing from the "market". Remember, published games are all compromises intended to reach a wider audience than just you. As such, you should expect some of their decisions to not be agreeable to you. i know i do. Thats why my MnM game has house rules and uses some of the option rules they provided as well.

Originally posted by Rene

Yes, but there must be a middle way between three break points and a million break points, don't you agree?

There are about 999997 in fact. :-)

The question is, how many do YOU want?

For me, MnM was a welcome departure from HERo in that it raised the scope of each step. It reduced the focus on minutia. The more detailed, the more microscopic you make the accounting system to deal with, the less wiggle room there is. MNM fells much closer to me for COMICS because comics are almost never a precision story which hinges on millimeters. Characters and their powers do wide swings from panel to panel and story to story and to me the "down to the quater" level of precalculated precision and the "does aunt may get kidnapped every other session or every fourth session matters as to whether i get more dice for my Eb" micromanagement seemed very anti-comics. i especially did not like the resulting tendency to not expect anything not on the sheet to be a problem. MnM draws back the focus a lot, with a big presumption of "problems" built in with each character that do not affect the accounting and an accounting system designed to capture the big things and leave the little stuff to FX. FX carries a lot more weight in MNM and I love that aspect.

I can understand how some could not. i have encountered a number of players i would NEVER recommend MnM to. The ones which leap most immediately to mind were those who saw RPGs as a competition between them and the GM and they would HATE the wider latitude for FX expected in MNM. They would not see it as "fair."

Originally posted by Rene

Also, I find that it wouldn't take superhuman levels of accounting to have, say, five or ten levels of appearance or wealthy, while it could increase the definition of the traits a lot.

It absolutely would not, but at that level, say 10 different levels of appearance that are specifically handled within the accounting system, would it be easy to represent them and show them in play? In truth, in my experience, in gaming its not that easy or frequently done. Good looking, average, anbd ugly are about the three levels tending to be shown as levels in play. In hero there are 10 levels typically, 2-20 by evens, but how often is 14 com differentiated in play from 16? Is it enough to offset +1 strength or stun or 2 end in your common super hero?

in my experience, no. So to me having the accounting system weigh 10 levels of comeliness off against those stats or in the broader range even against dice in my EB is just unnecessary baggage with bad side effects.

If ten levels of appearance WILL make frequent enough play in your games as to merit this, then i can see why you would prefer it that way.

My own viewpoint is i like appearance not being that much of a factor and leave it to character concept more than anything else.

Originally posted by Rene

It just seems suspiciously like they tried to use a pre-existing rule device (the feat structure) and cram everything from some powers to wealth to appearance into it. Cram stuff that didn't necessarily belong into the feat's structure.

Thats not how i saw it, but then we obviously come from different perspectives here.

Originally posted by Rene

Fluid games can be great. I just think games should make their minds about what they are. HERO has made it's choice. It tries to define minutely what each power can do. Godlike and FUDGE, for instance, are free-form in most of their powers. There is a theme that runs throughout the entire game. That is fine.

OK so far.

Originally posted by Rene

The problem I see with SAS, M&M, Aberrant, etc. is that some things are minutely defined, while others are left vague and unclear. The more popular a power is, the more defined it will be. Strength, Flight, Energy Blast, almost always are clearly defined. More abstract powers, that in HERO would be considered Mental Powers, Adjustment Powers, or Elemental Controls, are written in a way that is left open to lots of interpretations. But I have to admit this is a much greater problem in SAS and Aberrant. M&M has the d20 engine going for it to represent nicely most effects.

Not speaking for abberant or others, just for my understanding of MNM, i had no more trouble with their adjustment or mental powers than with the others you mentioned. barring the various typos and misedits, they seem to work clearly and concisely.

Originally posted by Rene

Still it seems to me like the writers have given a lot of thought to the basic powers, and then rushed things along to publish the game soon and didn't playtested the other powers enough.

I did not reach that conclusion. My guys reached the cpompetence level after about three plays and they include mental powers as well as standard ones.

Originally posted by Rene

I really hope so. I had high expectations for this game and felt specially frustrated by some things I see as "silly, easy to avoid" mistakes.

My impression is they are design differences from what you seem to want. There are several things i would have done differently in MnM were it me and so, from my perspective alone, they could be considered mistakes too. They are likely different than the ones you see. However, for me if i can see the why behind their decision and implementation, i can give them the credit for just making a different decision and not a mistake.

For instance, i would NEVER have linked BAB and BDB together in lump sums so that boxers of skill are also good marksmen. That was a carryover from the d20 rules and while they list an optional rule to split the elements, i would have reversed it (and as such i use that optional rule in my campaign.) Also, they do not allow villains to use hero points to wake up after being KOed, while I allow it "for escape purposes only" in my campaign, prefering that to emulate the "take your eyes off the downed villain and he is gone" aspect of comics, which i far prefer to the HERO "shoot the downed villain a second time to keep him from sitting up and blasting you again" recovery.

Again and as usual YMMV.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Nato
Dude, just asking a question. Don't have to get testy.

you asked.

i answered.

i asked.

you did not answer, even when you quoted the question

nuff 'said.

[Nato]

Ok, just so long as you're not be testy.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Rene
No, I think some feats are unbalancing inside M&M's own price structure. I'm not correlating this to HERO at all. So, let's say I want to buy five more levels in Elasticity. That is 15 PPs. Fair enough. But then I can use 15PPs to have X-Ray Vision, Immortality, Super-Flight, Space-Flight, and four more Alternate Forms.

That is just ridiculous.

HERO has it's balance issues, surely, but nothing as bad as that, I'm afraid.

OK now we do have you making a comparison to hero.

You are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the feats/stunts.

So lets take your examples one by one.

1. you are correc that xray vision is cheaper in MnM than in HERo comparitively speaking. This raises the question of which is more correctly priced. My personal opinion is neither, that its value is solely determined by the Gm and in any case circumstances not points will keep them in balance or out of balance. I certainly would not expect 10 points in a 350 pt character to make or break the balance structure and i certainly couls see circumstantces around use of x ray vision to.

But you went further...

Immortality... 2 in MnM vs 5 in hero5 ,a fractional comparison of 0133 vs .0142 of the starting points. They seem identically costed.

Super flight at 2 pp vs megascale movement at as low as 2 cp is more expensive or close to the same... EXCEPT that in MNM the gain from this is dependent on how much flight you bought, super flight does not give you flight at all, you needed to have bought the flight... whereas megascale flight does provide the flight itself and can be bought independently if you want really really cheap investment for strategic movement.

space flight at 2 pp (AFTER you bought flight) compares to 10 cp for FTL in HERo but again you compare a power that works off of a more expensive power in MNM to an independent power in HERo... the need to buy a second power to make the stunt of any value at all makes it look perhaps to those unknowledgeable skerwed, but in realitynot be so.

This is never more clear than in your last example.

Four alternate forms. These do nothing unless you have an original alternate form. To put it in simple jero terms... these are multipower slots. The 50 pp for the base form has already been paid and now you pay for the alternative forms. this is very much akin to HERo where a 50 pp MP pool would pay 50 for the base points and 5 for each power under that pool. MNM works under a rather simple premise... for 2pp you can buy a "respending" of points already spent as long as it is the same effect.

This does highlight one of the big differences in HERO and MNM... in MNM you get the MP slot/power stunt savings only if it is a similar effect like a second attack or a second movement power, where as in HERo you can have grossly different effects getting the drastic cost savings.

Anyway, you are comparing multipower slots (ignoring the pool cost) to regular powers purchased and construing from that an imbalance in costs.

if someone did that with hero comparisons, what would you tell them? if someone compared 25 pts of stretching to a 10 d6 Eb and 10" teleport and 10" tunnrling and +50 strength and +25/25 force field all taken together (based on 5 multipower slots of 5 each) and touted this as an obvious imbalance in hero, what would you say to them?

[Nato]

Originally posted by tesuji
So, is this enough to qualify me to post on these hallowed boards or do i need more?

just curious... how many other people on BBS do you ask for explanations as to their posting?


Ok, fine. I wasn't asking that question to offend you or to imply that you shouldn't post here. Not sure why you would think that from my question. I don't care why you post here really, was just wondering what makes you want to. I don't hang out on boards to games I don't play or like, but that's totally cool if people want to. I wasn't coming at you for not liking Hero or whatever. It was an honest question. Sorry if it bothered you. No ill will intended.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Nato
Ok, just so long as you're not be testy.

still not answering?

sigh?

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Nato
Ok, fine. I wasn't asking that question to offend you or to imply that you shouldn't post here. Not sure why you would think that from my question. I don't care why you post here really, was just wondering what makes you want to. I don't hang out on boards to games I don't play or like, but that's totally cool if people want to. I wasn't coming at you for not liking Hero or whatever. It was an honest question. Sorry if it bothered you. No ill will intended.

no pronlemo.

now if you will just do me the same courtesy and answer the question i asked of you, all will be right with the world.

[Nato]

still not answering?

sigh?


Look, i'm not trying to start a beef with you. I just asked you a question; which you seemed to be offended by. Sorry. I don't think your question needed to be answer as they seemed hypothetical to show your perturbance.

[Nato]

Originally posted by tesuji

So, is this enough to qualify me to post on these hallowed boards or do i need more?

just curious... how many other people on BBS do you ask for explanations as to their posting?

1) Anyone who is over 13 and has a valid e-mail address is qualified to post on these "hallowed" boards.

2) I don't know how to answer this. I just ask a question on a board when I wonder about something or don't understand something. It seemed odd to me that someone who didn't seem to like a game very much would post on it's board so often; that's the only reason I asked. I would ask my buddy why he hung out in a Raiders bar when he didn't like the team. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't like you or that you shouldn't be here or that this place is only for loyal Hero fans.

Anyway, no beef with you. I'm sure that if we were speaking in person with get along just fine. It's easy to misunderstand someone on the internet I know.

[tesuji]

Ok, i will rephrase the question...

How often do you or how many times have you questioned people posting on boards you frequent as to WHY they are posting on the board or reading the boards?

here's hoping that will be easier for you to figure out how to answer it.

Thanks in advance.

[Nato]

I unserstood your question. Both questions seemed sarcastic and goading. I didn't ask you a sarcastic question so I didn't want to answer one.

Well, you would be the first person I've asked why they post on a board, but I don't see why this is even an issue with you. It was just the question I asked. If asked you why you drink Pepsi, would you ask my how often I ask people why I they drink Pepsi?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Farkling

Or the system may be designed FOR those GM's specifically.

(lots and lots of other stuff snipped so snipping-out-of-context warning applies



Yeah, I FEEL as if MnM, despite its many virtues, requires more careful GMing to balance than HERO HOWEVER that is only based on one game and my "reading into" comments posted by Tesuji and others. I am looking forward to running a couple more games to see how it really feels with more experience. There's lots to like in the system so I don't want to ignore those good points. I readily admit I do have a prejudice towards HERO's level of granularity so I don't see going to MnM long-term - not without HERO-izing - which is probably a useless task, as many MnMers say, "if you want to play HERO, play HERO".

[Rene]

Originally posted by tesuji
if someone did that with hero comparisons, what would you tell them? if someone compared 25 pts of stretching to a 10 d6 Eb and 10" teleport and 10" tunnrling and +50 strength and +25/25 force field all taken together (based on 5 multipower slots of 5 each) and touted this as an obvious imbalance in hero, what would you say to them?

Well, let's see. I'd say that unrestricted use of power frameworks can wreck any semblance of balance in your HERO games. :) That is what I'd say, truthfully.

Anyway, my comparision to HERO came as a afterthought. First I explained why I thought M&M was terribly imbalanced. Then, and only then, I said HERO can have balance issues, but nothing as bad as that.

Now you have provided an example of one imbalance issue in HERO, you tried to refute my afterthought, but not the main blunt of my argument.

So, let's talk about HERO for a time.

It's obvious there is a problem with Power Frameworks in HERO. And since the problem is with Frameworks, and not the Powers themselves, a solution is easy. You only has to restrict Power Frameworks.

In my own games, Multipower is reserved for some very specific concepts. Namely, those cases where the character has one Power with several different usages but the same basic function. Basically there is two of them: Attack Multipowers and Movement Multipowers. And even then I rarely allow attacks built with different Powers in a Multipower. For example, I don't usually allow Ego Blast and Energy Blast in a Multipower. I'd be okay with a Area of Effect EB and a Armor Piercing EB. Or with Running and Flying. Or any other case where I think the character would be expending some of his points in redundant abilities.

I think Elemental Controls are less abusive and represent better the "Human Torch" kind of hero that can derive lots of effects from his single power.

So, with HERO we have Power Frameworks as a potentially very imbalacing thing. But at least Power Frameworks are an advanced and discrete concept, "the GM should carefully check each character's Power Framework before allowing it," says the book, it has ! signs and STOP signs in the case of VPPs, yadda, yadda, yadda.

It's like nuclear power, it's dangerous, it's not to be used lightly, but we know that already.

Returning to M&M.

Now, M&M has imbalance issues in those basic powers themselves. What should I do? Forbid them like I forbid most Multipowers? Not an option. There is no easy way out but to review each single one of those powers and change their costs.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Rene
Well, let's see. I'd say that unrestricted use of power frameworks can wreck any semblance of balance in your HERO games. :) That is what I'd say, truthfully.

Anyway, my comparision to HERO came as a afterthought. First I explained why I thought M&M was terribly imbalanced. Then, and only then, I said HERO can have balance issues, but nothing as bad as that.

Now you have provided an example of one imbalance issue in HERO, you tried to refute my afterthought, but not the main blunt of my argument.

So, let's talk about HERO for a time.

It's obvious there is a problem with Power Frameworks in HERO. And since the problem is with Frameworks, and not the Powers themselves, a solution is easy. You only has to restrict Power Frameworks.

In my own games, Multipower is reserved for some very specific concepts. Namely, those cases where the character has one Power with several different usages but the same basic function. Basically there is two of them: Attack Multipowers and Movement Multipowers. And even then I rarely allow attacks built with different Powers in a Multipower. For example, I don't usually allow Ego Blast and Energy Blast in a Multipower. I'd be okay with a Area of Effect EB and a Armor Piercing EB. Or with Running and Flying. Or any other case where I think the character would be expending some of his points in redundant abilities.

I think Elemental Controls are less abusive and represent better the "Human Torch" kind of hero that can derive lots of effects from his single power.

So, with HERO we have Power Frameworks as a potentially very imbalacing thing. But at least Power Frameworks are an advanced and discrete concept, "the GM should carefully check each character's Power Framework before allowing it," says the book, it has ! signs and STOP signs in the case of VPPs, yadda, yadda, yadda.

It's like nuclear power, it's dangerous, it's not to be used lightly, but we know that already.

Returning to M&M.

Now, M&M has imbalance issues in those basic powers themselves. What should I do? Forbid them like I forbid most Multipowers? Not an option. There is no easy way out but to review each single one of those powers and change their costs.

FWIW, I actually did this, but based on effect rather than cost. And I didn't really change it that much, actually I found it met my tastes scaling back the WHOLE damage system, which meant some prying into those powers which have different damage resolutions.

[bushido11]

There were too many responses between tesuji and nato in order for me to go back one pages worth of posts. I will say this, however:

Some extras should be power stunts and other power stunts should be extras. For example, the Super-Flight (that one stuck to mind). For an extra 2pp, you can fly faster than a dress falls on prom night. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think Super-Flight was considered a power stunt (as all power stunts cost 2pp). Personally, I think Super-Flight should be an extra instead (and I'm not sure if that changed in the errata). Not only does Super-Flight's cost increase as Flight ranks increase, but you can tweak with it by making it a partial extra.

Another thing I want to say is that the use of extras, flaws, and power stunts is a whole lot easier to use than Power Frameworks. If you add a power as an extra, the pp cost per rank is reduced by 1. If you add any other kind of extra, it's usually 1pp per rank more. If you add a flaw, it's usually 1pp per rank less (minimum 1pp per rank). That's it. No messy math. I pretty much have Elemental Controls downpacked, but I'm still a little hazy on Multi=powers, and more so on Variable Power Pools. For me, it's easier to design complex characters in M&M than HERO.

For the minutae issue, appearance to me is an FX thing. For money (if it's an important issue in your games), you could use actual currency or some sort of Wealth rating (kinda like d20 Modern, but not as complex), it depends on your tastes.

For the super-feats, forget super feats. Just make them rankless powers or something. You really don't need any prerequisites for having X-Ray vision; you either have it or you don't, and X-Ray vision sure is a handy tool. The same goes to other super-feats. Immortality is not such a big issue because that only means that the character cannot die due to age; he can, however, age to like a 90 year old and stay like that forever more (then you'd need immunity to aging as well as immortality to be elf-like, which could balance out the cost). Super-feats can use some fixing.

If you're going to compare everything to HERO, it's all going to fall short. Yeah, M&M could use some fixing, but so far, I really haven't had any catastrophic problems with it. For customizing characters, HERO's #1. For playability (actual playability and not theorized playabiltiy), I prefer to use M&M. It's easier to handle than HERO. Speed charts are a great idea in theory, but to someone who doesn't have years of HERO under his belt and has an alternate, decent game, it's too much of a hassle. I don't roleplay or GM just because of combat, and I don't want to spend most of my session on a single combat. You want to do something other than attack, make the appropriate skill check (or do succeed/fail at your misc. action). You want to attack? Make an attack roll. You hit? GM makes a damage save. Interpret the result in a descriptive manner. I keep combat exciting like that, rather than turn it into an accounting session.

All I've really done to modify M&M was modify the price of abilities and skills, as well as thrown in some extra feats of my own. I don't really use M&M for supers, I use it mainly for fantasy. I don't stress my head over how HERO does something different or better. Heck, I'd like to know how to make up Martial Arts styles for HERO but I probably can't without the MA sourcebook. All I have to rely on is CSLs and RSLs. For M&M, I can use feats to simulate MA moves. And I've written up more combat-oriented feats to support my MA loving PCs. But that's just me.

The only thing I'm wondering now is how long will this post get. It's already at 16 pages. It's pretty fun reading other people's replies, though. Let's keep up the work, fellas and dames. And let's argue less about minutae stuff and enjoy our RPGs more.

[Nato]

Originally posted by bushido11
Let's keep up the work, fellas and dames. And let's argue less about minutae stuff and enjoy our RPGs more.

Amen to that.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Rene

Well, let's see. I'd say that unrestricted use of power frameworks can wreck any semblance of balance in your HERO games. :) That is what I'd say, truthfully.

Allow me to say ... WOW! this is so far removed from what my answer would be as to make me certain we are from different planets.

I would have said "by ignoring the pool costs and just concentrating on the slot costs you have made an invalid comparison. You cannot buy a 10d6 eb or any of those things for 5 points each and have them work without first paying 50 points for the pool so comparing the slots to a complete power is skewed and meaningless."

live and learn.

Originally posted by Rene

Anyway, my comparision to HERO came as a afterthought. First I explained why I thought M&M was terribly imbalanced. Then, and only then, I said HERO can have balance issues, but nothing as bad as that.

Now you have provided an example of one imbalance issue in HERO, you tried to refute my afterthought, but not the main blunt of my argument.

if you are describing my 5 slots example as an example of imbalance in hero, i can assure you it was NOT meant to be such an example. it was meant to be an example of a faulty argument using slots vs real powers as a comparison, akin to using power stunts vs real powers in MNM.

I do not beleive and have not tried to say that multipowers in hero are imbalancing. While i do have a few issues with them, and i do believe limiting them to same type effect would be better, i have seen them used for literally decades and not seen the cause game breaking problems.

Originally posted by Rene

So, let's talk about HERO for a time.

It's obvious there is a problem with Power Frameworks in HERO. And since the problem is with Frameworks, and not the Powers themselves, a solution is easy. You only has to restrict Power Frameworks.

Since i do not believe there is a serious problem there, i will leave this one alone. i know some people have aesthetic issues with frameworks and have seen people who had issues in play with them depedning on power specifics (many people disliked how aid worked thru them) i myself have not had those issues.

most of the balance problems in HERo i had stemmed from advantages and limitations and the powers themselves.While a good number of those issues were addressed between 4th-5th or between 5th-faq, not all have been nor will they in my estimation. of course, new ones were added too

Originally posted by Rene

Returning to M&M.

Now, M&M has imbalance issues in those basic powers themselves. What should I do? Forbid them like I forbid most Multipowers? Not an option. There is no easy way out but to review each single one of those powers and change their costs.


Again, you and I differ on our impression of MNM and its balance problems.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Nato
I unserstood your question. Both questions seemed sarcastic and goading. I didn't ask you a sarcastic question so I didn't want to answer one.

Well, you would be the first person I've asked why they post on a board, but I don't see why this is even an issue with you. It was just the question I asked. If asked you why you drink Pepsi, would you ask my how often I ask people why I they drink Pepsi?

i would if i felt i was possibly being singlerd out for questioning. If i had seen you ignore others drinking pepsi and saw you come to me and specifically ask about my drinking, i would be curious as to whether it was just me or if it was some more broad hobby of yours.

[Rene]

I think some superpowers and were made into feats and power stunts only because they were not easily "scaleable". The worst offender is Penetrating Vision, IMO.

Microscopic Vision is a Superpower and costs 2 pts per level. Penetrating Vision costs 2 pts flat. Suppose Superman has Microscopic Vision +12. He'd pay 24 pts for it, and only 2 for his X-Ray Vision.

I don't think this decision was made because Microscopic Vision is so much more useful than X-Ray Vision, I think it was made because Microscopic Vision is easy to break into a scale (each level doubles the magnification), while X-Ray Vision is not.

And since everything that isn't scaleable in M&M is made into a feat, every trait not easily scaleable costs 2 pts.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by bushido11

Some extras should be power stunts and other power stunts should be extras.

I cannot say that i have seen a case that i agree with this on. Wait, yes i have... even after the errata there are some energy control vs Eb extra issues as some of the controls still have an attack effect in the main power.

Originally posted by bushido11

For example, the Super-Flight (that one stuck to mind). For an extra 2pp, you can fly faster than a dress falls on prom night.

The erratta took all the super-move powers and made them all stunts, turning a couple like teleportation extend and fast tunnelling from extras to stunts.

I agree with their decision. i always found this level of non-combat speed to be strategic movement and much more a plot effect than anything else. We wont be roleplaying the fights they dont arrive at in time. if the sotry called for them to not arrive in time so they can follow up, then having super flight would not have mattered. net result, its just an fx thing. maybe your games vary in this regard.

I would never see super-flight being as crucial or as effective for someone with +10 flight as say +10 to will save or a +10 ranged attack, which is what making it an extra would make it cost out as.

Originally posted by bushido11

Another thing I want to say is that the use of extras, flaws, and power stunts is a whole lot easier to use than Power Frameworks.

I agree, although in my nxt MnM game i will be overhauling the flaw and weakness system to get rid of the loan sharking system entirely.


Originally posted by bushido11

For the minutae issue, appearance to me is an FX thing. For money (if it's an important issue in your games), you could use actual currency or some sort of Wealth rating (kinda like d20 Modern, but not as complex), it depends on your tastes.

I agree.

Originally posted by bushido11

For the super-feats, forget super feats. Just make them rankless powers or something.

I really do not let names or titles cause me much grief. Too many years of HERo has taught me to look for effect not name.

Originally posted by bushido11

If you're going to compare everything to HERO, it's all going to fall short.

Hmmm... i might say hero may fall short for some, but thats another story. :-)

Originally posted by bushido11

Yeah, M&M could use some fixing, but so far, I really haven't had any catastrophic problems with it. For customizing characters, HERO's #1. For playability (actual playability and not theorized playabiltiy), I prefer to use M&M. It's easier to handle than HERO. Speed charts are a great idea in theory, but to someone who doesn't have years of HERO under his belt and has an alternate, decent game, it's too much of a hassle. I don't roleplay or GM just because of combat, and I don't want to spend most of my session on a single combat. You want to do something other than attack, make the appropriate skill check (or do succeed/fail at your misc. action). You want to attack? Make an attack roll. You hit? GM makes a damage save. Interpret the result in a descriptive manner. I keep combat exciting like that, rather than turn it into an accounting session.

i agree.

Originally posted by bushido11

All I've really done to modify M&M was modify the price of abilities and skills, as well as thrown in some extra feats of my own. I don't really use M&M for supers, I use it mainly for fantasy. I don't stress my head over how HERO does something different or better. Heck, I'd like to know how to make up Martial Arts styles for HERO but I probably can't without the MA sourcebook. All I have to rely on is CSLs and RSLs. For M&M, I can use feats to simulate MA moves. And I've written up more combat-oriented feats to support my MA loving PCs. But that's just me.

sounds interesting. For your fantasy game, are you using the impairing optional rules? how are they working for you if you are?

Originally posted by bushido11

The only thing I'm wondering now is how long will this post get. It's already at 16 pages. It's pretty fun reading other people's replies, though. Let's keep up the work, fellas and dames. And let's argue less about minutae stuff and enjoy our RPGs more.


Agreed.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Tesuji
Allow me to say ... WOW! this is so far removed from what my answer would be as to make me certain we are from different planets.

I would have said "by ignoring the pool costs and just concentrating on the slot costs you have made an invalid comparison. You cannot buy a 10d6 eb or any of those things for 5 points each and have them work without first paying 50 points for the pool so comparing the slots to a complete power is skewed and meaningless."

Not so meaningless as that. I really think multi-purpose Multipowers in HERO aren't balanced. Actually they seem to exist to cover for other imbalance issues in HERO. They don't seem to break games because every single knowledgeable player follows some shortpath to power. Bricks have underpriced STR, other characters have ECs and Multipowers, still others have all-encompassing lims. like Focus.

Well, it all balances out in a roundabout way. But the simple naked fact is that shelling 60 pts in a single EB seems too much when compared to the guy that buys a Multipower and gets access to a host of different powers. Supposing he pays 120 pts for his Multipower, he'd be getting the EB and eleven more powers, for just double the amount of points of the guy that bought only the EB.

They don't bother me as much because it's easy enough to forbid multi-purpose Multipowers without forbidding concepts that should do fine with Elemental Controls instead.

[bushido11]

To tesuji:

For the super-feats issue, other people do seem to have a point. They cost the same as regular feats, but are "super". For example, the Amphibious super-feat costs the same pp as Skill Focus (for example), and for a mere 2 pp, you can survive any underwater pressure, breathe underwater, no penalties on swim checks while underwater, and can see in underwater depths up to pitch black darkness just fine. That sure is a lot for one feat, even if super. Even though this super-feat (or power, what have you) is only useful underwater, it is a very useful feat. The reason I emphasize on the "feat" part is simply because of the pricing of the feat: 2pp. And it really wouldn't make much sense to give it prerequisites either. It's just something your character has, like a power, for example. Other than the pp, you don't need anything else for a power. Another super-feat that should actually be an extra instead is Durability. For a mere 2pp, I could be nigh-impervious to any attack that has a lower damage bonus than my protection. Most definitely an extra, not just a mere super-feat (there's an example of when a power stunt, even though it's not one it could be, should be an extra instead). Also, it would make more sense for Durability to be scalable rather than the flat-out effect it has as a super-feat. The point I'm trying to make is that in having the game designers calling them super-"feats", the pp price is already set to 2pp, even if the effect of the super-feat far exceeds the low pp cost.

As for my fantasy game, I'm not using impairment rules, because I don't want to deal with that extra book keeping (also I'm running it for an amateur player and I don't want to overwhelm him). I am using the extra lethality rules, however, and I've extended the time needed to recover from injuries as well. I'm also using this book called Mythic to help me generate my adventure on the fly; it's a really handy book for all of those GMs out there who don't want to spend countless hours generating some adventure there. I just GMed my first adventure with my friend, who's a animal-morphing (roughly same size only), animal mind-controling character who's a very decent combatant. If not for the NPC with the healing staff, his character would've been torn to shreds by the Auromvorax (anyone familiar with the AD&D Monstrous Manual should know what this creature is).

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by bushido11

To tesuji:

For the super-feats issue, other people do seem to have a point. They cost the same as regular feats, but are "super".

Adding the word super is just a name change. There is no rules making that have any meaning. Too many years of HERO has taught me to not worry about names and focus on effects.

Originally posted by bushido11

For example, the Amphibious super-feat costs the same pp as Skill Focus (for example), and for a mere 2 pp, you can survive any underwater pressure, breathe underwater, no penalties on swim checks while underwater, and can see in underwater depths up to pitch black darkness just fine. That sure is a lot for one feat, even if super. Even though this super-feat (or power, what have you) is only useful underwater, it is a very useful feat.

The key to this feat is very simple. It is appropriately priced for most campaigns where underwater activitu is a rather rare thing. In a campaign where underwater activity is common, like say an atlantean campaign, this should be a power instead. (All games need for their game masters to look at the "standard prices" and see if they are good for the specifics of their campaign. Sense mutant in an XMAN campaign is probably much more beneficial than detect magic, for instance.)

So far, my campaign has been going on for over half a year and they have never been underwater. It may actually occur soon. i doubt more than one session a season/year will have them going underwater, so charging only 2 pp for amphibious seems right dead spot on. The guy who paid 3 pp for the base will probably have a combat occur at his house about that often so he gets to use its stuff andgoodies.



Originally posted by bushido11

The reason I emphasize on the "feat" part is simply because of the pricing of the feat: 2pp.

It almost sounds like you think they named it feat and then went "well if its called feat it must be 2 pp." I take the opposite view. They decided it was 2pp and decided "hey, if its only 2 pp lets make it a super-feat." Either way, whether it is called a feat a power or a pomegranate, i don't fret te name i pay attention to the effect.

Originally posted by bushido11

And it really wouldn't make much sense to give it prerequisites either. It's just something your character has, like a power, for example. Other than the pp, you don't need anything else for a power.

Amphibious has no prerequisites.

I do agree that some of the prereqs for feats and super feats don't make as much sense for my game and so i tend to drop them where apropos.

Originally posted by bushido11

Another super-feat that should actually be an extra instead is Durability. For a mere 2pp, I could be nigh-impervious to any attack that has a lower damage bonus than my protection.

you are confused or misrepresenting the feat.

first, it has nothing to do with protection. protection the power blocks damage attacks that are lower than it. Whether you have durability or not is irrelevent to that.

What durability does is turn lethal attacks into stun attacks (in hero terms turns killing attacks into normal attacks of same DC) as long as they are lower than your damage save (not protection, damage save.) This means the "hits" will be "stun hits" and not "lethal hits" (so they will recover in minutes not hours once the fight is over) and instead of being disabled (half actions and near to dying) you will be knocked unconscious.

IMX those are not huge things frequently enough to make it worth more than 2 pp.

However, i could see where in some games, where lethality was higher, like maybe a fantasy game, this feat might ought to be a power. Again, when a given campaign setting has some specific elements that are different than the "expected game" the Gm should be assessing costs.

I can fully understand where in a FANTASY CAMPAIGN both amphibious and durability would be much better as more expensive traits. My DND campaign gets a lot more "in water action" and has a higher mortality rate than my four color supers game.

Originally posted by bushido11

The point I'm trying to make is that in having the game designers calling them super-"feats", the pp price is already set to 2pp, even if the effect of the super-feat far exceeds the low pp cost.

The catch is they made them feats because they thought they were 2 pp for a typical supers campaign. For campaigns that are less typical, where these elements play a much higher role, the GM needs to adjust their cost as a house rule.

Were i running a star frontiers game where the heroes swooped across the cosmos, i would likely make space flight not a stunt of flight, to make it cost more because it would be worth more in that particular campaign.

I can easily see where both of the powers you mention would be worth more for MNM used for fantasy gaming. If the book had priced them accurately for fantasy gaming, they would be overpriced for most four color supers games. One price or one price scale cannot fit all.

thats why we have GMs. :-)

[bushido11]

You've made some pretty good points there, tesuji.

I know Amphibious doesn't have any prerequisites. I was talking about the feats where it doesn't make much sense putting prerequisites.

Thanks for clarifying Durability for me. I still think it should be an extra, probably for Amazing Save: Damage. You say "to-may-to" and I say "to-ma-to". I also have to remember that in supers, bizarre combinations and their counterparts are more common.

[Farkling]

Rene::
We could start a seperate thread about this. :)

Bad Frameworking in any system is one of my pet peeves. So I tend to glance at it in other systems fairly frequently. I'm all for concept and discounting a Framework build because it is a well thought out character...but it is too frequently abused for a Munchkin effect, and when it IS used for munchkin/powergamer effects, it can be horribly erfficient. Especially with the "in the book it says I can have as multiple Frameworks if I wish." The answer is always "with GM approval, so tell me the reason. It's cheaper is unacceptable."

My primary pet peeves::

The game master I played with who basically rewrote all the PC's to "better more cost efficient" variants. The primary effect of this that I saw was EVERY character looked practically the same. Here's the Attack Multipower, and the Defensive/Movement Elemental Control. The charcters all looked almost identical in construction. It found it annoying.
The GM tried to convert the characters made by the two experienceed outside GM's (one a HERO novice) joining the game in progress. We objected. I kept my big Elemental Control and the additional downsides, the other character kept his focused powers and his restrainable powers. We did a lot better with less Frameworking (and power) than those poor newbies. Then again, we both also coughed up over 10%-20% of our points for FLAVOR powers, that were ineffective anywhere but in narration. :)
(<shrugs> They understood OUR characters better than theirs. We accidentally stole the gaming group. The former GM won't even speak to us now.)

The other abuse that I've seen and abhor in character design used to be a published schtick. Attack Multipower, Defense Multipower, Movement Multipower. I would only generally approve a blatantly powergaming construct of that type in a Galactic Guardians level campaign. Why there? For the flexible power and the versatility. Maybe for a WELL THOUGHT OUT Dark Champions type...I don't know. The player would have to be convincing.