EGO as DEX in Combat Order

[Blue]

I have a player playing a mentalist who wants to be able to use his EGO for determining his attack order. I told him no because DEX costs more than EGO and it would tend to give him an advantage. But further thought on it is that his DEX adds to his SPD while EGO doesn't and it can be argued that this is the reason for the 1pt more expense in purchasing it.

I guess what I'm wondering is, do you see a downside to allowing him to attack on his EGO instead of his DEX? I think it would get him into the combat faster (He's always last, even after the villains).

I'm particularly interested in opinions of people who already use this optional rule.

[Checkmate]

I never realized this was an optional rule, I thought that it was just the way it was done. We've ALWAYS done it this way and it works out great. You're still comparing the EGOist's EGO to the other character's DEX. In my experience the EGOist's EGO is usually around an Energy Projector's DEX. The fast guys (martial artists, speedsters) still usually go first.

Something else to remember is this is only when they use a mental power. If they use a typical TK, or even if they move they're back to their DEX.

[Kelcyron]

Something else to remember is this is only when they use a mental power. If they use a typical TK, or even if they move they're back to their DEX.

I wonder if that would be the case if they bought their movement power as BOECV.

Kelcyron

[Blue]

The only problem I foresee with this is that he has two potential DCV based attacks and his movement. Movement is still a physical thing, and allowing someone to move on their EGO seems a bit incongruous.

Changing between DEX and EGO in mid-fight is a bit off-putting to me. I'd have to know what a character's intent is before I even set the combat order.

But I'm leaning toward allowing it anyway.

[Thia Halmades]

This is the way it's done because it's in the rules. ;) HERO 5th Rev., somewhere around p113 - 117. I can't find the citation, but I remember reading it (literally) yesterday.

[Warp9]

I never realized this was an optional rule, I thought that it was just the way it was done. We've ALWAYS done it this way and it works out great. You're still comparing the EGOist's EGO to the other character's DEX. In my experience the EGOist's EGO is usually around an Energy Projector's DEX. The fast guys (martial artists, speedsters) still usually go first.

That is what I thought too.

I would only agree that it is "optional" in the sense that "all rules are optional."

But beyond that, I would say that it is no more specifically optional than STR costing 1 per point, or EB costing 5 per 1d6.

[Blue]

Page 374 of the PDF version of 5ER says a mentalist may act on their EGO instead of their DEX except when they intend to move... then they must wait until their DEX to act.

That seems clunky to me.

[mattingly]

I just tell my players that they can buy a Talent to let them act on EGO. So, for 5 points (or something), I let them buy "Acts On EGO" without telling them that I'm actually just using Lightning Reflexes for All Actions, until thei DEX equals their EGO. It works fine for our games.

[Blue]

I've proposed two rules to my group:

1) They act on EGO unless ALL the things they do are physical that turn (Move and fire a gun, instead of move and mind control)

2) They act on EGO if that's the focus of the character regardless of their intent that turn, just to make things easier.

I'm waiting to see what they say.

[archermoo]

I generally just put two entries for someone who has mental powers in the combat order, one for their EGO and one for their DEX. If they are doing something basically "mental", they can act on their EGO, everything else must be done on their DEX. Never had any real problems with it, and I've been doing it that way for at least 20 years.

[Lord Mhoram]

I generally just put two entries for someone who has mental powers in the combat order, one for their EGO and one for their DEX. If they are doing something basically "mental", they can act on their EGO, everything else must be done on their DEX. Never had any real problems with it, and I've been doing it that way for at least 20 years.

That about sums it up for me as well. :D

[CrosshairCollie]

As I understand the rule, you go on EGO if you're performing a Mental Action, but that would have to be the only thing you're doing, otherwise you have to basically 'hold your action' until your DEX rolls around.

This is why every mentalist I've ever played or designed has equal DEX and EGO, just to simplify things. :)

I'm considering discarding that rule, myself, and using DEX exclusively. EGO is strength of will and mental fortitude, not reflexes.

[Blue]

You know, Entering the character twice in the combat order wouldn't be all that hard. I'd just label them accordingly and when the first one comes up I'd just ask, "Any physical actions?" If yes, I move on until the next time they come up.

Thanks for all the input, folks.

[incrdbil]

For my current mentalist, his Dex is lower than my Ego. I bought lightning reflexes to equal it just to sort out this problem. This keeps my dexterity and CV values where they should be, but works well for combat--my reactions are just attributed to quick thinking/ latent precognition as opposed to superhuman reflexes.

However, I might just go ahead and equal the two out, as I don't hold with some perceptions that egoists should be slow or weak in defenses.

[Rapier]

I've always made mentalists use their EGO for attack position.

This can be a bit of a snag if the mentalist has differing values for EGO and DEX (which is pretty common). If you want to move and attack you have to wait for your DEX. If you just want to attack you can go on your EGO.

It works pretty well, and with Lightning Reflexes you can even out the difference fairly inexpensively.

[RPMiller]

I do EGO for mental attacks, DEX for everything else. EGO is not only their mental strength, but their mental agility as well that is why there is an ECV after all.

So for a mentalist with high EGO, low DEX, they attack mentally and then later they get to act physically. That can be a disadvantage if the bad guys discover the mental attack came from him and have higher DEXs than he does...

[CrosshairCollie]

I do EGO for mental attacks, DEX for everything else. EGO is not only their mental strength, but their mental agility as well that is why there is an ECV after all.

So for a mentalist with high EGO, low DEX, they attack mentally and then later they get to act physically. That can be a disadvantage if the bad guys discover the mental attack came from him and have higher DEXs than he does...


Runs a bit contrary to the 'attack actions end your phase' principle, though ... and I always considered ECV to be a battle of wills rather than mental agility ... Strength vs Strength rather than Dex vs Dex, though it uses a combat skill roll. But that's just me. :)

[RPMiller]

True, but that isn't my fault. ;)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Maybe I am just not adept at running combat, but having two different attack orders depending on actions (especially in a combat with multiple mentalists) makes me cringe. Not that you shouldn't be able to do it that way, but it is such a pain in the posterior.

As GM I always make sure that my mentalists either have the same DEX and EGO or have Lightning Reflexes to make the attack order the same. And up to this point I have been able to convince any player running a mentalist to do the same. Saves me lots of headaches.

That said, EGO doesn't really strike me as a good option for mental adroitness and hence combat order; that should be INT which more nearly represents the speed at which the character thinks. In my conception, ECV is based on EGO because it is a contest of wills, not because EGO represents some kind of cerebral agility. Of course that might skew the point cost to value ratio of INT.

Maybe combat order should be based on INT+DEX (the speed at which you can think of an action and then the speed at which you can execute it). Am I totally out in left field on this or does this seem reasonable to anyone else?

__________________________________________________ ________
Drained and blue
I bleed for you
You think its funny
But you're drowning in it too
- Alice in Chains

[RPMiller]

Here's my pat answer. Do whatever you and your group feels to be the best way to have fun and not make gaming a chore.

The rules have always been mentalists go on their EGO. Not sure how much that changed in 5ER, but that is what I'm sticking to because it works for me. I house ruled in the physical actions happening on DEX because frankly I didn't want my mentalists having to be super dexterious as well. I'm more about the character concept then the specific mechanics. For the most part anyway. In the end, I really don't think it matters if your group all agree to it and find that it is rewarding for them then go with that.

Afterall, in roleplaying games, rules were meant to be broken. That way the producers can keep making new rules. ;)

[archermoo]

Maybe I am just not adept at running combat, but having two different attack orders depending on actions (especially in a combat with multiple mentalists) makes me cringe. Not that you shouldn't be able to do it that way, but it is such a pain in the posterior.

As GM I always make sure that my mentalists either have the same DEX and EGO or have Lightning Reflexes to make the attack order the same. And up to this point I have been able to convince any player running a mentalist to do the same. Saves me lots of headaches.

That said, EGO doesn't really strike me as a good option for mental adroitness and hence combat order; that should be INT which more nearly represents the speed at which the character thinks. In my conception, ECV is based on EGO because it is a contest of wills, not because EGO represents some kind of cerebral agility. Of course that might skew the point cost to value ratio of INT.

Maybe combat order should be based on INT+DEX (the speed at which you can think of an action and then the speed at which you can execute it). Am I totally out in left field on this or does this seem reasonable to anyone else?


No need for two entirely different combat orders. Just put the mentalist in the combat order twice, once for their DEX and once for EGO.

I've known people to use the average of Ego and Dex for combat order. Personally I prefer the system in the book. :)

[RPMiller]

Which is?

[archermoo]

Which is?


A character using a Mental Power uses EGO instead of DEX to determine when he acts in the Phase. (However, his SPD still derives from his DEX.) If he wants to take any physical actions (such as making a Half Move) first, he must wait until his DEX comes up, move, and then use his Mental Power.

:)

[Vorsch]

Blue youre so correct/intelligent can i mary you?
Good anser.

[Blue]

Um...er... don't confuse the Avatar with the man! But thanks.

Oh and it wasn't really my idea: It came from posts before mine. But it works for me because I use a spreadsheet. Putting them in twice is all of 10 seconds work.

[Erkenfresh]

I put them in twice too. The first time I put "(EGO)" after the name so I know why it's there. It's made a huge difference in combat. One time I caught the player doing a mind blast and then moving on his EGO so I moved him back. Close enough for the monsters to eat him. ;)

[RPMiller]

:)
Thanks for the info archermoo.

[Hyper-Man]

Assuming a DEX lower than EGO why not just suggest the purchase of Lightning Reflexes to cover the difference which eliminates the problem?

[RPMiller]

Because the character doesn't have Lightening Reflexes?

[archermoo]

Thanks for the info archermoo.

NP, happy to help.

[archermoo]

Assuming a DEX lower than EGO why not just suggest the purchase of Lightning Reflexes to cover the difference which eliminates the problem?

Because not every concept for a mentalist includes fast reflexes?

[RPMiller]

Is there an echo in here? ;)

[tesuji]

Yes but you can limit the scope of "lightning reflexes" to apply to only certain traits. If you want it to be "fast mind", you buy it limited to mental powers only.

the book examples cover all actions 3/2 and one action at 1/1 so there is plenty of room between for "only mental actions" and then you could scale it based on how many you have.

MR "i have one ego blast" just buys at 1-1 cost, while mr "i have an entire suite of ego powers which INCLUDE flight (SFX Psionic TK) or other "mental sfx but physical "power" writeup) buys his at a greater cost.

[archermoo]

Is there an echo in here? ;)

Sorry 'bout that. :) Was reading the boards on my phone and missed yours...

[archermoo]

Yes but you can limit the scope of "lightning reflexes" to apply to only certain traits. If you want it to be "fast mind", you buy it limited to mental powers only.

the book examples cover all actions 3/2 and one action at 1/1 so there is plenty of room between for "only mental actions" and then you could scale it based on how many you have.

MR "i have one ego blast" just buys at 1-1 cost, while mr "i have an entire suite of ego powers which INCLUDE flight (SFX Psionic TK) or other "mental sfx but physical "power" writeup) buys his at a greater cost.

I think the point of the previous mention of Lightning Reflexes was so that characters would have the same DEX and EGO, so that their mental stuff and physical stuff would go off at the same time. Not for going faster with just EGO stuff.

Personally I've had mentalists that had the same EGO and DEX. But forcing everyone who runs a mentalist to do that kind of limits the character concepts.

And as a note, I don't really see that there is "plenty of room" between 3/2 and 1/1. It is the difference between spending 1 point for 1 level and spending 1.5 points per level. I suppose you can go to things like 4 points for 3 levels, or 5 points for 4.

[Thrakazog]

I'd allow acting on EGO is the only things they did were use mental powers. I wouldn't allow movement or anything physical at all.

You could also consider having him buy SPD, only for mental powers (-1).

[archermoo]

I'd allow acting on EGO is the only things they did were use mental powers. I wouldn't allow movement or anything physical at all.

You could also consider having him buy SPD, only for mental powers (-1).

Yeah, that's pretty much how it is written up in 5ER.

[JmOz]

I have in the past allowed the characters to move on ego as well for ease of play, did not break anything IMO

[SteveZilla]

As I understand the rule, you go on EGO if you're performing a Mental Action, but that would have to be the only thing you're doing, otherwise you have to basically 'hold your action' until your DEX rolls around.

This is why every mentalist I've ever played or designed has equal DEX and EGO, just to simplify things. :)

I'm considering discarding that rule, myself, and using DEX exclusively. EGO is strength of will and mental fortitude, not reflexes.

So EGO is to STR & CON as INT is to DEX? ;) I have no problem with making a mentalist wait if their DEX is lower than their EGO. They usually already have a good advantage over other other characters. Namely, their Mental Powers.

That's the rules. If they don't like being slow, they should buy up their DEX to equal their EGO, or at least buy Lightning Reflexes (all actions) so that it's equal.

[SteveZilla]

I'd allow acting on EGO is the only things they did were use mental powers. I wouldn't allow movement or anything physical at all.

You could also consider having him buy SPD, only for mental powers (-1).

I thought the issue wasn't number of Phases, but the order of actions within any particular Segment. They may have an EGO of 26, but with only a DEX of 11, they're going to be last just about all the time in Segments where they get an Action.

Unless they're doing purely Mental Power Things.

[BNakagawa]

Because not every concept for a mentalist includes fast reflexes?

that doesn't really matter. Although it's called lightning reflexes, what lightning reflexes really is, is Improved Initiative.

[RPMiller]

:shock: Did he just refer to a D20 feat? :fear::angst:

[Hugh Neilson]

that doesn't really matter. Although it's called lightning reflexes, what lightning reflexes really is, is Improved Initiative.

Using Lightning Reflexes does not allow for a Mentalist whose mind can react faster than his body. To me, it makes sense that a fast-thinking mentalist could take a purely Mental action earlier in the phase than he could take a physical action. He can Ego Blast on Ego 26, no problem, but if he wants to move, his legs don't get the message until DEX 11.

[archermoo]

that doesn't really matter. Although it's called lightning reflexes, what lightning reflexes really is, is Improved Initiative.

I understand how lightning reflexes works. I have actually been playing Hero for quite some time. And I stand by my previous statement. Not all mentalist concepts include the idea of them going faster with anything other than their mental powers.

Heck, as someone else has mentioned, I've even had mentalists that had extra SPD that could only be used for mental powers. As I recall that character was EGO 26, DEX 15, SPD 3/6. Potentially it would've made some things a bit easier if he went on 26 for both DEX and SPD. Of course, it would make things a bit easier if everyone had the same SPD too. That doesn't mean that it is always a good idea.

I'm not saying that there are no mentalist concepts that Lightning Reflexes make sense for. Just that it doesn't necessarily make sense for all of them.

[Hyper-Man]

from 5er page 90


... (bought as Dexterity, Only To Act First In A Phase (-1), with an additional -1 Limitation if the DEX only applies for a single action or maneuver)


Why not split the difference and include an additional option: Only applies to Mental powers (-1/2).

So for a character with EGO 26, DEX 15

13 Lightning Reflexes: + 11 DEX, Only To Act First In A Phase (-1), Only applies to Mental powers (-1/2).

[RPMiller]

That is already in the rules as mentioned. If all you are doing is using Mental powers you go on your EGO.

[Hyper-Man]

That is already in the rules as mentioned. If all you are doing is using Mental powers you go on your EGO.

Can you site where that is mentioned in 5e or 5er?

[RPMiller]

Actually archermoo already did that up above:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1260299&postcount=23

[Hyper-Man]

my bad :D

[RPMiller]

It certainly is! ;)

[Blue]

Used the two-entry system this weekend. I even let the player who had "mental" special effects on his movement powers (such as psychic levitation) to do those moves on the EGO order along with his attack. Worked pretty well.

[archermoo]

Used the two-entry system this weekend. I even let the player who had "mental" special effects on his movement powers (such as psychic levitation) to do those moves on the EGO order along with his attack. Worked pretty well.

Cool beanios! :thumbup: Thanks for the update!

[RPMiller]

Used the two-entry system this weekend. I even let the player who had "mental" special effects on his movement powers (such as psychic levitation) to do those moves on the EGO order along with his attack. Worked pretty well.
Good to hear. I've been using that rule myself for some time so it is good to hear that it worked for someone else as well.

[SteveZilla]

Using Lightning Reflexes does not allow for a Mentalist whose mind can react faster than his body. To me, it makes sense that a fast-thinking mentalist could take a purely Mental action earlier in the phase than he could take a physical action. He can Ego Blast on Ego 26, no problem, but if he wants to move, his legs don't get the message until DEX 11.

Exactly right. However, I've seen a fair number of players (usually somewhat new to Hero System), suddenly realize that their character can't do the typical "Half-Move and Attack" Phase on their EGO. They're generally limited to three things:

1. Delay till their DEX comes up and then HM&A, or
2. Do a Full Move, or
3. Attack.

Sometimes this realization is accompanied by much whining.

[SteveZilla]

Used the two-entry system this weekend. I even let the player who had "mental" special effects on his movement powers (such as psychic levitation) to do those moves on the EGO order along with his attack. Worked pretty well.

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

[RPMiller]

I would personally rule that as happening on DEX.

[SteveZilla]

That's what I would do. So why would Flight with the same F/X get a pass? EDIT: I'm not saying you, RPMiller, would do that. It
s a general audience question.

It's not like Lightning Reflexes costs a lot (1 pt per +1) when bought for just one action or maneuver.

[JmOz]

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

Because some people like to look at the difference in utility.

BOECV is for attack powers, at a hefty +1 advantage, because it allows a power to be targeted vs ECV instead of DCV, DCV usualy being quite a bit higher (In my experience ECV is usualy around 3-5, while DCV will usualy be around 8-12). You do not get this major advantage when used on a movemet or defence power.

Or do you really think that being able to move on your ECV is worthy of a +1 advantage

I would also like to quote a passage from the rules book, but do not have the time right now (page refrences is for 5th edition, not revised)

But the gist of it is two points, point 1: In the description of power catagory the book says you can change the catagory based on F/X at a +0 cost (page 72, second paragraph, under changing catagories, right below the example)

Somewhere it says mental powers can be used on the Ego for inititive (can't find it right now, in a hurry)

if a character changes his flight per the first rule to being mental, then by rights he should be able to use the second rule as it is now a mental power.

Realise the above is a major GM approval type of thing, but it is in the book as an option.

[archermoo]

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

I would probably rule it as going on EGO, but that would depend on specifics. And for that matter I would let Mental based flight, teleport, etc. go off on EGO as well.

[RPMiller]

Well that would certainly resolve the move then attack conundrum to be sure, and would probably lead to all mentalist characters getting a movement power based on ego. Interesting...

[archermoo]

Well that would certainly resolve the move then attack conundrum to be sure, and would probably lead to all mentalist characters getting a movement power based on ego. Interesting...

Actually, it didn't lead to anything of the sort. If someone isn't going to buy up their Dex or get lightning reflexes to be able to physically effectively on their Ego because it doesn't make sense for the character, I don't see them as being likely to buy flight so that they have a movement power that they can use on their Ego if that isn't in character concept either.

[RPMiller]

Just thinking out loud.

[archermoo]

Just thinking out loud.

Cool. Just responding out loud. ;)

[Blue]

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?
I would have to have them use it on DEX rather than EGO. If they're doing an attack and a move in my game, and the atack is an actual EGO based attack and the movement has ego SFX, I let them do the whole move on EGO. Anything else would be on DEX.

[SteveZilla]

Actually, it didn't lead to anything of the sort. If someone isn't going to buy up their Dex or get lightning reflexes to be able to physically effectively on their Ego because it doesn't make sense for the character, I don't see them as being likely to buy flight so that they have a movement power that they can use on their Ego if that isn't in character concept either.

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

It opens up a loophole IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

It opens up a loophole IMO.


It's only a problem to the extent you make it a problem. A character whose abilities are entirely based on DEX moves entirely on DEX, and pays 2 points to buy +1 DEX (it's 2 points, not 3, since no one ever rounds down their Speed - anyone who did would buy DEX no figured for 2 points anyway). A character whose abilities are entirely based on EGO moves entirely on EGO, and pays 2 points to buy +1 EGO. It's the character with a mixed bag of abilities who is unfairly penalized, being forced to buy +1 DEX and EGO to get the same effect, costing 4 points.

Maybe all characters should move on the greater of their DEX or EGO (physical and mental reaction time both being considered), or perhaps the average of the two, That munchkin martial artist with 38 DEX and 10 EGO (because he has no mental powers) wouldn't be able to exploit the "loophope" that permits him to point shave by not buying any EGO then!

[Blue]

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

It opens up a loophole IMO.
If your players would do that, you need new ones!

[tesuji]

If your movement and your reaction speed or initiative are all based on EGO, not Dexterity, shouldn't then your DCV be figured off of EGO instead of Dexterity.

Wouldn't the TK-Ladd mentioned above need to have his DCV based off EGO/3?

Ego rolls for Dive for cover?

Agility skills based off EGO?

etc...

[tesuji]

It's only a problem to the extent you make it a problem. A character whose abilities are entirely based on DEX moves entirely on DEX, and pays 2 points to buy +1 DEX (it's 2 points, not 3, since no one ever rounds down their Speed - anyone who did would buy DEX no figured for 2 points anyway). A character whose abilities are entirely based on EGO moves entirely on EGO, and pays 2 points to buy +1 EGO. It's the character with a mixed bag of abilities who is unfairly penalized, being forced to buy +1 DEX and EGO to get the same effect, costing 4 points.


There is an obvious flaw in this reasoning.

Right now with what they both do, ego and dex cost the same. But they do different things.
If you take "when do i move" from Dex and move it to EGO, you have lessened the value of dex and raised the value of EGO.

Take a similar line of reasoning and use INT and PRE.
Both cost 1 cp each.
if i decide as my house rule "smart people are harder to impress" and so i decide to allow INt to be used against presence attacks, then i can "justify it" by pointing out that the guy with 23 int for +13 cp is just as resistant as the guy with Pre 23 for the same cost.

but what i have really just done is made high int better.

Now, if one thinks "INT is too expensive compared to PRE" this is likely a ood idea. But if one thinks they were balanced before... not so good.

or put another way, Just because Int and str cost the same, doesn't mean ts Ok for me to have strength determine my per rolls or skill bonuses for computers.

All that said, I personally dont see a problem with having a mentalist who uses mental powers for his movement, and in having these scores reflect his ego instead of his dex, but IMo the way to represent this is by buying the traits with the right SFX.

If i have Ego 23 and Dex 14 and I want to have CV based off my "ego score" i buy either Cv levels or even buy "more dex" with SFX of "ego based reactions.

if i want my initiative order for all things including moves to reflect my ego 23 not my dex 13, i buy lightning reflexes with the appropriate SFX.

the inconsistency in the rules, IMO, comes from approaching the "when do i go" with the "use ego for init for free for mental powers." This leads, IMO, to very honest and worthy questions of "what else can i get ego based for free?" or put another way "how many other functions of dexterity can i swipe and add to EGO for free?"

had the sentence under Mental combat been to use mental powers on your ego, not your dex, buy lightning reflexes as mental rflexes" this wouldn't be a question or series of questions.

ymmv...

[archermoo]

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

It opens up a loophole IMO.

I am aware that it opens up a "loophole". The whole system has a bunch of loopholes. Yes, it is possible to build broken, munchkiney characters. My response to them as a ref? No.

As I said before, I have been playing this way for at least 15 years and have never had a problem with it.

[SteveZilla]

To be honest, I haven't had a problem with it either in the games I've been in. I tend to stay far, far away from the games where stuff like that gallops rampantly. I'm just thinking "worst-case scenario".

[archermoo]

To be honest, I haven't had a problem with it either in the games I've been in. I tend to stay far, far away from the games where stuff like that gallops rampantly. I'm just thinking "worst-case scenario".

Worst case scenario with just about anything in Hero is "yes, it can be munchkined". As a ref I would never let someone play a character that I hadn't vetted first. Not even someone I trusted. And I certainly don't have any interest in gaming with someone who is just interested in seeing how they can game around the "loopholes".

Hero reminds me of one of my favourite quotes about Unix:

Yes, Unix lets users do stupid thing. If it stopped them from doing stupid things, it would stop them from doing the really clever things too.

[Vondy]

I allow mentalists to use EGO in Lieu of DEX for initiative for mental powers only. I've never found it unbalancing.

[SteveZilla]

Hero reminds me of one of my favourite quotes about Unix:

Yes, Unix lets users do stupid thing. If it stopped them from doing stupid things, it would stop them from doing the really clever things too.

I think that's very likely true (I only use UNIX/AIX at work, and I'm not an admin, so my clever stuff is limited). However, I did recently teach myself how to write an awk script. I wrote a pair that are about 3000 lines of code, combined.

So I guess that makes the Hero System GM kinda like the UNIX System's Admin? :D