Giants and Hit Locations

[Blue]

There's probably a rule regarding this, but I had trouble finding it tonight.

Say that your game allows called shots. Say your enemy is...oh... godzilla. A player declares he's going to take a called shot on Godzilla's head. Now he's got a physical limitation that due to his size he's -10 to his normal DCV.

How do you let this impact called shots? Do you say "He's a monster, I'm not letting in called shots", do you let them take the called shot and give the normal minus despite the fact that his head is incrdibly huge, or do you do something else?

[SSgt Baloo]

There's probably a rule regarding this, but I had trouble finding it tonight.

Say that your game allows called shots. Say your enemy is...oh... godzilla. A player declares he's going to take a called shot on Godzilla's head. Now he's got a physical limitation that due to his size he's -10 to his normal DCV.

How do you let this impact called shots? Do you say "He's a monster, I'm not letting in called shots", do you let them take the called shot and give the normal minus despite the fact that his head is incrdibly huge, or do you do something else?

I don't have the numbers handy, but with increased size comes increased DCV penalties. Gojira's head is much easier to hit than, say, a skink's head. Expect a few range mods though, since Gojira's head is waaay above street level.

[Pattern Ghost]

If the shooter is on the ground, then Godzilla's head is going to have some range penalties to hit to offset the size, I suppose. =D

I wouldn't allow BODY multipliers on called shots to gargantuan things, though, or else I'd give the thing a hideous BODY score to account for the mass involved.

Might go as far as having a seperate hit location chart for the head and the body. That would allow for called shots to the eyes (to distract/enrage?), to the nostrils or mouth (to deliver biochemical agents maybe), etc.

I'm not sure the core rule book covers giant monsters in this regard, and unfortunately, I haven't got the new bestiary to see if there are any suggestions there.

[Manic Typist]

I would allow called shots to "smaller" large creatures, say a regular giant. Someone who's the size of a train car, for instance.

[SSgt Baloo]

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.

Godzilla is a big, tough kaiju. Nothing less than another giant rubber suit should be much of a concern for such as he. Unless you're using a pathetically weak build for your giant monster or running a comedic campaign, the big, building-sized monster should not be rendered hors de combat by a shot to the groin.

[Shaft]

If Godzilla is 128m (64") tall, using the ruyles from the Growth power (p.183 5R.ed) he gets a -12 to his DCV. He also gets +18 BODY, 32" of reach, +90 to his STR and 18" of KB resistance.

To hit his head, the shooter's OCV would be at -8. The range modifier for ~110m (55"- I assume the shooter is content to hit the bottom of Godzilla's head) adds another -8 to the OCV. The net result is that a called shot for Godzilla's head gives Godzilla a net +4 DCV.

The vitals might be a better shot since the range modifer would be a little less (-6). Of course, these numbers assume that the shooter is within Godzilla's impressive +32" of reach, so it might be prudent to fall back a little where you're out of his reach, but can Set and Brace as well.

I'd allow called shots to be made, but I'd also build Godzilla with some Damage Reduction in addition to his impressive resistant PD and ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

There's a recent thread on this issue on the Fantasy board here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51732)

[Lord Liaden]

This particular example may be a little extreme. Considering that Godzilla's power level is beyond that of any heroic-level campaign that doesn't allow one either to carry man-portable nukes or to summon Cthulhu, I have to question using Hit Locations in this case.

[CrosshairCollie]

Hit Locations are typically not used in superhero-genre games ... if they are being used, I'd say it's just a matter of the GM taking that into account and giving Godzilla high enough defenses and enough body to balance the encounter.

[gojira]

There's a lot of good discussion in the thread Hugh references. Including the fact that extra stun from head and other vital shots don't seem to be "realistic."

It might be useful to give very large monsters extra PD and Damage Reduction vs. Real Weapons to simulate the idea that small weapons just bounce off him. Something like "Real Weapons less than 2 inch bore" or something. Armor does this to an extent, but the stun multiplier for head shots can sometimes make for unpredictable (or unanticipated) results.

[BNakagawa]

I was about to say that if you don't have ranged weapons, the Giant hit location chart should read:
3-5: Leg
6-9: Ankle
10-18: Foot

But in the case of ranged weapons, sure I'd allow people to target Godzilla's head. The only downside is that I'd also give Godzilla 75% damage reduction at least so he really wouldn't care that much about getting shot in the noggin with a tank round. (and he really doesn't)

[Manic Typist]

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.



I don't have a problem with it, as long as the truly big baddies are built appropriately.

I was arguing that a "small" large creature, such as a giant (twelve, thirteen feet tall, twenty, etc) should have normal hit location rules and pluses to hit because of its size.

[Blue]

The point about the distance to the head is important. I'll need to remember that next time.

Thanks for the info so far.

[SSgt Baloo]

There's a lot of good discussion in the thread Hugh references. Including the fact that extra stun from head and other vital shots don't seem to be "realistic."

It might be useful to give very large monsters extra PD and Damage Reduction vs. Real Weapons to simulate the idea that small weapons just bounce off him. Something like "Real Weapons less than 2 inch bore" or something. Armor does this to an extent, but the stun multiplier for head shots can sometimes make for unpredictable (or unanticipated) results.

Most kaiju are really huge creatures. They often have relatively tiny brains protected by really thick, dense skulls. Their skin is often so thick that you need artillery shells just to take tissue samples. Their skeletons are made of material that resembles bone but must be immeasurably stronger or they would crumble under their own weight unless they spent all their time in the water. Most of these creatures hawk radioactive loogies and their flatus probably makes nerve gas look pleasant by comparison. They are more heavily armored than the greatest battleships ever built. Even if Joe Hero fires an RPG up a kaiju's left nostril, it will very likely only serve to clear the monster's sinuses.

Using the hit location chart against really huge monsters is about as logical as using them against tidal waves, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes or hurricanes. Some things are on such a vast scale that they rival forces of nature. Except where the PCs are able to meet the giant rubber monsters on their own terms (giant robots or special anti-kaiju weapons) I'd only use the hit location chart if you really think it might make a difference. I might make an exception in cases where body damage actually penetrated the giant monster's defense. Damage reduction is advised in any case (the bigger/tougher the monster, the more DR it has).

In the case of giant, but not kaiju-scaled creatures, I see no reason not to use the hit location table. I'd make exceptions where a monster was amorphous (a car-sized people-eating amoeboa, f'rinstance) or homogenous (example: iron golem). Exceptionally large or tough creatures would have high defenses and (possibly) damage reduction in any case.

[Hugh Neilson]

One approach not yet mentioned (I think) would be to buy Damage Reduction that only applies to certain hit locations. You hit him in the foot? 1x STUN Multiple, no reduction. Head shot? Oh, his 3/4 damage reduction (only to locations with a 5x Stun Multiple for KA's) kicks in.

[Blue]

Creature in question already had 75% damage reduction in the write-up. I dropped it to 50 for this game just to demonstrate that his was a "baby", not the momma.

I think in the future I'm not going to allow hit locations on things above a certain size. It's the Mosquito effect; Heroes buzzing around his head should probably be doing about the same there as anywhere else. Now if hero grew larger and closed that gap, I'd probably allow it. Just makes better thematic sense.

[Pattern Ghost]

Pattern Ghost & Manic Typist:

I just don't see what the problem is. Big things are easier to hit than smaller things. If your target is the size of a building, called shots ought to be easier than with a smaller target so long as the creature in question is not so bizarre that an attacker can't tell the head from any other part.

Godzilla is a big, tough kaiju. Nothing less than another giant rubber suit should be much of a concern for such as he. Unless you're using a pathetically weak build for your giant monster or running a comedic campaign, the big, building-sized monster should not be rendered hors de combat by a shot to the groin.

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said contradicts your opinion. Adding more sensitive spots to hit makes it easier to do something meaningful to the monster, doesn't it?

[SSgt Baloo]

I think in the future I'm not going to allow hit locations on things above a certain size. It's the Mosquito effect; Heroes buzzing around his head should probably be doing about the same there as anywhere else. Now if hero grew larger and closed that gap, I'd probably allow it. Just makes better thematic sense.

Makes sense to me.

Not all monsters are, strictly speaking, characters. If the monster is supposed to be an unstoppable force of nature, write it up that way and (as the GM) simply declare, either openly or through character interaction, that the means to cause actual, lasting harm is unavailable to the heroes. Of course, in such a case, damage should either attract the monster's attention (so you can lead it into a trap that you hope will stop the creature) or turn it away (so you can herd it into the above-mentioned trap). Sometimes the heroes are limited to helping innocents trying to flee, putting out fires, and detecting the weak spot that, if Missile Command aims right, might prove the monster's downfall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to allow these giant monsters to take the "No Hit Locations" automaton power.

[SCUBA Hero]

If Godzilla is 128m (64") tall, using the ruyles from the Growth power (p.183 5R.ed) he gets a -12 to his DCV. He also gets +18 BODY, 32" of reach, +90 to his STR and 18" of KB resistance.

To hit his head, the shooter's OCV would be at -8. The range modifier for ~110m (55"- I assume the shooter is content to hit the bottom of Godzilla's head) adds another -8 to the OCV. The net result is that a called shot for Godzilla's head gives Godzilla a net +4 DCV.Shaft,

I wasn't sure exactly how the rules on 5Er p.373 applied, so I asked the question here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53144). It turns out that the 'DCV cannot go below 0' rule is applied first, so Godzilla (presumably) goes to 0 DCV (unless his DEX is at least 38!), then the shooter goes to -16 OCV, and (presumably, unless his OCV is more than 16!) the negative OCV is then applied to Godzilla's DCV, making the shot *worse* than the +4 DCV result listed above.

[SCUBA Hero]

I agree with Hugh Nielson that the 'No Hit Locations' Power is the most appropriate way to deal with the situation, assuming that Hit Locations are used in the first place.

[Blue]

One of my players proposed an interesting compromise that I'm considering:

As it would be right now, Hero (9 OCV - 8 for "head shot" = 1 OCV) attacks Monster (5 DCV -10 due to size = -5 DCV) = 17- chance to hit him in the head, which is too easy for a "head shot" quality hit.

Instead, specifying a headshot, you leave off the size bonus. That is, he's huge and nearly invulnerable, so maybe his vulnerable spots are still so small they're -8 to hit them at headshot equivalent effect.

So the same attack becomes Hero (9 OCV - 8 Hit location= 1 OCV) versus Monster (5 DCV) = 7- to target the "head shot equivalent" location on the target. It still makes it hard to specify a quality hit and at the same time allows them in the game. I think it might work.

[Manic Typist]

Do negative DCV values add to the attacker's OCV?

I'm not sure how I feel about that, blue. It looks (correct me if I am wrong) exactly like a normal headshot (in terms of mechanics) with NO benefits for how huge this thing is. I can see the goal, but what about you only allow the size modifiers to bring the creature's DCV down to zero? So using your figures, it would be a 12- to hit (with the negative 8) the head.

[Blue]

It would be a normal headshot statistically. Mathematically it represents that you can still get in a good, focused shot by targeting a specific part of the monster, it just doesn't make that spot so huge that the monster becomes easy to crush.

[SSgt Baloo]

It would be a normal headshot statistically. Mathematically it represents that you can still get in a good, focused shot by targeting a specific part of the monster, it just doesn't make that spot so huge that the monster becomes easy to crush.

Just how feeble is this hypothetical creature? Perhaps you're forgetting to give the creature a monstrous CON score so it's that much more difficult to stun?

[SCUBA Hero]

As it would be right now, Hero (9 OCV - 8 for "head shot" = 1 OCV) attacks Monster (5 DCV -10 due to size = -5 DCV) = 17- chance to hit him in the head, which is too easy for a "head shot" quality hit.DCV cannot go below zero (5ER, p. 373). So the attack is OCV 1 vs. DCV 0 = 12- to hit. Don't forget any Range Penalties.

[mudpyr8]

I feel size modifiers should be OCV mods, not DCV. They should not be halved if the target is stunned and such, and for objects the size mod is an OCV penalty, as it is for hit locations.

Make size mods OCV mods and this issue becomes moot.

[transmetahuman]

I feel size modifiers should be OCV mods, not DCV. They should not be halved if the target is stunned and such, and for objects the size mod is an OCV penalty, as it is for hit locations.

Make size mods OCV mods and this issue becomes moot.
Size mods are pretty much the same thing as range mods; both represent how much of what's in front of you is taken up by the cross-section of your target. So, yeah.

I was going to say something about how, if you're firing at a building from six feet away, it's not going to make much of a difference whether it's the broad side of a barn or the Astrodome (point being maybe there should be an upper limit to bonuses from size)... but at that point, your OCV will be high enough that either size mod is still in auto-hit territory (so, there doesn't need to be an upper limit).

[input.jack]

I miss the 3rd Edition version of Growth. Levels of Growth affected the Range Mods others took to shoot you, but didnt affect your DCV at all. (To demonstrate this, picture yourself as a 12 foot tall giant, facing a 6 foot tall Knight. The Knight moves in to hand to hand range and tries to take a swing at you with his sword. You simply take a step back, and hes missed you, meaning your hand to hand DCV is no different against him than against someone your own size. His friend, the Archer, then tries to shoot you. As you are twice the size of his usual targets, he can hit you from about twice as far away with accuracy).

I honestly feel that changing Growth from that set-up was a "lowest common denominator" compromise that damaged the playability of the Power.