Altered Reality (making yourself)

[RPMiller]

What guidelines do people use, if any, for making real people? For example, if you were to make yourself, how many points would you be, what would your stats look like? Are there some actual measurements that can be used to create yourself? I'm assuming that most people would have some serious disads. Probably more than they have point limits for. Has anyone tried this using 5th?

NOTE: My biggest concern, and I'm absolutely serious, is players "overestimating" their abilities, and just as important "underestimating" their abilities.

[Savinien]

Nope. Any time I've ever heard of a group trying it... Hard feeling have always ensued.

[Cancer]

Yeah, what Savinien said.

In another thread a few months back I recall stating that I probably come out as an Incompetent Normal, because in RL I am utterly worthless in combat, and that's really all that matters in HERO System.

Also, 5ER's INT and Skill rules muddy the waters around those places where I actually am above average. I concluded my only place in a HERO game would be as an occasionally-helpful Contact or an incompetent DNPC.

[RPMiller]

Very interesting... I think we all tried this when we were younger I'm guessing. I find it interesting how many groups failed to successfully do this.

My own experience was perhaps a rarity then. A little background, my gaming group growing up was comprised of the same people and we were all very good friends. We went to parties together and hung out together even when not gaming. At some point we decided to make ourselves for a GURPS game I think it was. We all went to work and when we were finished there was a lot of "you so don't have those stats", "you aren't that good at X", etc. Because we all knew each other and trusted each other we devised a different method. We took what we had made ourselves and gave it to the others. The others would then go over it and reach a consensus of additions, deletions and modifications. When it was done we all agreed to play the final product. Surprisingly, it worked! In the scenario (it was a Red Dawn rip off) everyone was able to do pretty much exactly what they could in real life, and although it only ran for about half a dozen sessions it was probably the most continual playing we had ever done. In fact, OOC conversations almost didn't exist.

I'm very curious if something like that could be achieved with HERO. Based on various other discussions I've read, I'm starting to believe it simply can't be done.

[Cancer]

I tend to agree with you there, partly because if you pose the question, "How would you model doing a doctoral thesis in a HERO game, and what benefits come for a character that does one?", the answer you get back is "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's go do something more fun, like try to play FATAL."

[RPMiller]

:D

Edit: Weird it dropped the smiley and made it lower case... Now it's working... Strange.

[Sketchpad]

We did something akin to this when we played V&V back when I was younger. It was a round table of akin to RP's experience and then we rolled on the power table ;)

[Curufea]

There are a series of guidelines in BTRC's Timelord RPG that cover assessing a real person's stats that are quite good.

We had a game the other night where we played ourselves going as well - however it was systemless game, so stats weren't used (it wasn't narrativist though).

[RPMiller]

Cool. So could those guidelines be adapted to Hero or are we still in the "not possible" realm? I honestly would like to know how to do this, or if it is possible. I've been mulling it over all day, and I'm still struggling with how to do it.

[The Monster]

I'm with Cancer. If I'm generous, I come out with about 5 points after disads (that's even adding stuff like PS: RP GM 16- just to drive up point costs). Actually, now that I'm officially over 40, I doubt I could even come up positive.

I do recall playing V&V, lo these many years ago. It was fun enough, though IIRC stats mattered very little compared to the powers you rolled up.

[RPMiller]

Yea, powers aren't even going to come into play with my idea since this is very much us now. I think it is going to be another system although I'm waiting to see what the Ultimate Skill has to offer.

[tkdguy]

If you're trying to play a game where you and your group (as PCs) find yourselves in a certain situation, you could use the Average Person or Noteworthy Normal write-ups found in FRED to represent yourselves.

Unless anyone in the group practices a combat sport, you probably won't have to include combat in your game. That can be a good change of pace. I notice people who play themselves in a game (I've done it once or twice) tend to be more cautious during combat situations and freak out a bit if they get "killed" in the game. It may be better to put the players in situations that can be resolved without combat.

[OddHat]

Lots of threads on this, and a good old chestnut. I think I did this the first time playing Villains and Vigilantes about 25-26 years ago.

From a playability perspective, I'd just give everyone 25 points, tell them to take 25 points in disads, and leave it at that. If the Navy Seal in your group insists he's a 550 point character, explain that it's a 50 point game. If the depressed unemployed wiccan in your group insists that he has 225 points in disads, explain that he gets points for 25 and everything after that isn't worth anything in the game.

If anyone insists on "realism", I'd take them into my weight room and have them demonstrate their deadlifts, then open the Ultimate Brick. That give you their STR score (which of course doesn't really work out, as HERO STR is an abstraction). The other stats are harder to guestimate, but I'd usually say 7 or less = very young, ill or very poorly developed, 8-10 = unexceptional, 11-13 = developed and enough to build a hobby or modest career using that stat, 14-17 = exceptional, draws considerable praise, can build a solid career on that ability, 18-22 = enough to earn lasting, wide spread acclaim in your field if you have the skills to support it, 23+ = world class and almost certainly famous for it unless you're a complete emotional wreck and therefore incapable of holding down a job.

The guys in your office probably have an 8-10 in most stats, and maybe an 11-13 in the stat they use to make their living or pursue their hobbies. If they're really passionate about a hobby or making a really good living based on raw ability, 14-17 is possible, though I'd take it with a grain of salt. 18+ is very unlikely unless you're gaming with top athletes and researchers.

Skills follow, imo, the same pattern. 7- is what most people remember 5 years after they studied a subject, 8-10- in hobbies or whatever they use to make a basic living, 11-13- if they're notably good at their job, 14-17- if they're acknowledged as experts, 18- or higher if they're genuine leaders in their fields.

The high school kid who goes to Karate once or twice a month when he remembers may have KS: Karate 7-. The twenty something who's at the dojo 2-4 days a week because he wants to impress the hot girl who works in Starbucks may have a KS: Karate 8-10- and a few skill levels in Punch/Block/Dodge. The competitive Karateka has a KS 11-, 10+ points in maneuvers, and a few levels with his martial art.

Alternative: Just grab a Dark Champions package and go from there. It's only a game.

[CrosshairCollie]

One (possible) way to deal with the over/underestimation would be for every player (plus the GM) to assign stats to each player based on their feelings about it, then average the results. If the player thinks he has a 18 DEX but five people think it's an 11, the end result will be about 12, which is close enough for government work.

[CrosshairCollie]

I notice people who play themselves in a game (I've done it once or twice) tend to be more cautious during combat situations and freak out a bit if they get "killed" in the game. It may be better to put the players in situations that can be resolved without combat.

I agree. One player (the guy I'm saying 'arrivaderci' to in Da Rules thread) always plays a character with the same personality, which seems to be an idealized (to his own exceptionally testosterone-addled ideals) version of himself, and thus takes it rather personally when he gets beaten on, or his swaggering machismo doesn't impress someone.

[Spidey88]

A buddy of mine ran a GURPS game a few years back where we played ourselves as characters. He said: "write yourselves up as 100-point characters - but don't sweat it too much, you won't be staying that way very long." As a result of that lack of pressure, we set about making statting up ourselves with very little squabbling. The only case of one-upmanship was when my buddy gave himself an "attractive" appearance. I figured "heck, I'm at least at good-looking as Steve!" and gave myself "attractive" as well.

The campaign didn't last very long, unfortunately - so a couple years later, I basically tried the same premise with a (mostly) different group using HERO. I admit, I have issues with using HERO at low point levels (the, IMHO, lack of granularity between the effects of attributes in the "normal" range), but it never came up - nor did we have to worry about statting ourselves accurately - since we just roleplayed the first session (which led up to us getting superpowers) freeform, without even having character sheets. After we got our powers, everything (even INT and skills) had the potential to change, so it didn't matter much who had what (though I did notice at least 75% of us had an INT score of 23). It actually worked out pretty well - of course, there was no combat to speak of that first session...

I think, though, that the issue of writing up a group of real people as characters boils down to this: it's all relative. It may be difficult to figure out, say, what my exact DEX score is; but (ahem) if I do say so myself, all my gaming buddies would agree that I've easily got the highest score amongst us - so I'd be the high benchmark. Steve has the best aerobic fitness, so he should likely get the best CON, etc. If Steve gives himself a DEX of 13, I should have at least a 14 - If I have a CON of 13, Steve should have a CON of at least 14, etc. If noone goes overboard with their estimates, have at 'er - as long as the relation between the group feels right. Really, this is the only basis for measuring I've used (coupled with common sense).

Of course, this only works if you've got a group that knows each other pretty well. And, for the sake of politeness, you can't be too emphatic about who sets the low benchmarks (eg. Alright, George, everyone here knows you're the ugliest). I say: unless they volunteer themselves otherwise, let everyone be at least "average" in their attributes (10, since we all know gamers are a cut above your average person on the street;) ). I suspect COM and INT will be particularly tender spots - equal tact may be required with some disads! In all cases, I'd say: let everyone see each other's characters and judge for themselves if they're kosher. Disads are probably best handled by the player himself, at least for the first draft.

As for points? Don't give a budget at first - just make sure everyone knows to be fairly conservative. After the first draft is done, take a look at the highest-point character/player, tell him to scale it back a bit (or not, if he/she really is just plain exceptional) and give everybody else the same budget. Accurate? Likely no. Polite and argument-defusing? Likely yes. I imagine people will respond better to "you get to be a bit better than that, actually" than "no, actually, you suck a little more than what you've got here."

[Nolgroth]

I just crafted myself on 50 points (25/25). I could have probably gotten around 45 - 50 in Disadvantages, but I really didn't have anything to spend the points on.

I think the overall simulation is pretty accurate. There are some holes but I think I could run the James Cook character rather easily in a low point game.

I suppose I could scrape a few more points together by looking at the Everyman skill category. Might be worth it if I had a place to put the points.

[shadowcat1313]

BTRC published a game called Timelords, that gave a system for building yourself
and how to figure stats...

it didnt work out too badly... although the GM who was new to our game club dropped the group into a fantasy world with whatever gear they had on their person at that moment.

one of the guys tended to sit and knit chainmail during gaming sessions and still was a very good player, he had enough with him to actually finish a sleeveless shirt.

it can make for an interesting group dynamic depending on the situation you drop the players into.

[Kenn]

Nope. Any time I've ever heard of a group trying it... Hard feeling have always ensued.

Have I told you those horror stories?

[Kenn]

Before I ever started playing, my future first role-playing group tried the Everyone-Assess-And-Average method to build themselves (in AD&D.) It resulted in a lot of hard feelings. Most of them had only known one another for a few months, and everyone was a little harsh in their assessments of everyone else.

A few years later, a later group I was in, we were trying to build ourselves in Chill. We never actually played. We ended up with cartoon versions of ourselves. In the areas where we had the aptitude, we were too good. In the areas where we were bad, we were pathetic. Most of us were honest, but we had no scale, so things got exaggerated.

Plus there was one player who insisted he'd need at least half again as many points to build himself as the rest of us had. He was shocked when I beat him arm wrestling left handed. He could consistently beat me right handed, but I could consistently defeat him left. (I am right handed.) But I at least proved that no, he really wasn't so much stronger than everyone else.

[RPMiller]

It definitely takes a group of people that are not only honest with each other, but also honest with themselves to be able to pull it off, however if it doesn't have to be 100% accurate and everyone gets the same points I think fudging here and there would work fine.

I'm mainly interested in if it can be done in HERO system rather than if it can be done at all. This was the original point of the thread. From the sound of it, it still doesn't sound like it is feasible in HERO.

[OddHat]

I'm mainly interested in if it can be done in HERO system rather than if it can be done at all. This was the original point of the thread. From the sound of it, it still doesn't sound like it is feasible in HERO.

It's as easy as writing up any other character if you don't mind the fudging inherent in the mechanics. The arguments, if any, will be over whether the player is being honest or what exactly an X or less in a given skill actually means in real world terms. Those are problems you'd have in any game system.

[RPMiller]

Although percentile systems really go a long way to smoothing out that skills issue. ;) I think the biggest hurdle is the characteristics. The Ultimate Skills book would probably take care of the other issue I have which is the lack of said skills. (Yup. Being lazzzzzy. ;))

[OddHat]

Although percentile systems really go a long way to smoothing out that skills issue. ;)

I disagree. The problem isn't "What percentage does Fry Chef 11- equal"; the problem is that people will argue endlessly about what actually falls under "Fry Chef", what the player's actual score in Fry Chef might be, and whether or not he qualifies for the skill at all.


I think the biggest hurdle is the characteristics.

I'd say that the biggest hurdle is that game systems of necessity have to represent real world skills and abilities in an abstract form, and game players are often pedantic and argumentative, especially online. Not sure there much you can do about it other than agree that the mechanics are just an abstract approximation and get on with the game.

[Matt Frisbee]

Hmmm...I do remember doing this for a Chill campaign (a horror game based on the old TimeMaster system from way back when) when I decided to play myself (I really wasn't into the genre, but my friends were). As I remember, the game was a mostly "in-the-headspace" thing, so my lack of physical abilities didn't make much of a difference. If memory serves, mine was the only character of the original group to survive to the end of the campaign. In retrospect, playing myself really wasn't much fun, but if whatever flips your switch. I may try this on a group of players in a Traveller game in the near future (if they're game for it) -- say a bunch that have just awakened from an extended cryosleep? :)

Matt "My-stats-are-probably-pathetic-but-I-would-have-an-impressive-set-of-completely-useless-skills-by-now" Frisbee

[bigdamnhero]

I'm mainly interested in if it can be done in HERO system rather than if it can be done at all. This was the original point of the thread. From the sound of it, it still doesn't sound like it is feasible in HERO.
Sure it's feasible! I've done it before with Hero (3Ed) and it worked just fine. Granted this was in the Army, so we were all in reasonably decent shape and had a fair number of game-useful skills, even if only as Familiarities. Plus we had things like PT tests, rifle qualification scores, etc to use as semi-objective guides. We came up with some guidelines for other characteristics and such, but I don't remember what they all were.

The challenge, as noted, is that Hero has less granularity at the "Normal" range. The keys IMHO are:

1) Accept that there will be some stat inflation, and that's okay. What you're really doing is creating somewhat-idealized Cinematic versions of yourselves.

2) As Spidey88 said, it's all relative anyway. Having a DEX of 10 or a DEX of 18 is meaningless until you compare it to someone else. Who cares if the players all wind up with DEXes in the 12-15 range, as long as the opposition is scaled appropriately?

As far as Skills go, stress the "An 11- means the character can make a living at it" guideline. If the player honestly doesn't think they could do so, it's a Familiarity. Interaction skills are perhaps the hardest to judge. OTOH, if a player can't convince the group that he has Persuation skill, then he probably doesn't. ;) I'd recommend keeping KSes fairly broad, or some players will fill up the sheet with them.

As for points, my suggestion would be to take everyone's first drafts and see what kind of point range they're in (probably rounding down to keep everyone honest). Then issue that as a guideline so everyone starts on more-or-less the same level.

[Savinien]

Have I told you those horror stories?

Something of them, I believe. As I've said previously, it has always ended badly in my experience. Now, I think it might be plausible with the right group of players, especially if none of them were obnoxious, onery cusses.

Wait... maybe that's why all my experiences have gone badly!

:p

[OddHat]

The answer to "Can writing up the Players as Character be done in HERO" is really "Yes, at least as well as in any other system, and just as with those other systems, some players will whine."

The lack of fine gradations of ability at the low end of the spectrum doesn't bug me. Characteristics and Skills are abstractions anyway, and if you feel the urge you can always offer some trivial benefit for going from an INT 11 to an INT 12. The Ultimate Brick's expanded STR table is a fair model.

I'd say I could write up equally valid 0, 25, 50, and 100+ point versions of myself, depending on how I chose to define my skill and talent set.

For instance, I've been seriously at risk in violent situations at least a half dozen times in my life, yet emerged relatively unharmed each time. The 0 point version would just be assumed to have gotten lucky rolls in those situations. The 100 point version might have some Combat Luck or dice of Luck to get him out of those fixes. Both versions are valid ways of viewing the same events, and both work in the right kind of campaign.

[bigdamnhero]

I'd say I could write up equally valid 0, 25, 50, and 100+ point versions of myself, depending on how I chose to define my skill and talent set.

For instance, I've been seriously at risk in violent situations at least a half dozen times in my life, yet emerged relatively unharmed each time. The 0 point version would just be assumed to have gotten lucky rolls in those situations. The 100 point version might have some Combat Luck or dice of Luck to get him out of those fixes. Both versions are valid ways of viewing the same events, and both work in the right kind of campaign.
That's a good way of looking at it. Just as with any other game, the real objective should be: figure out what kind of game you want to run, and build characters for that game. The fact that the characters happen to resemble, to a greater or lesser degree, the players themselves is almost irrelevant -- or at least secondary -- to the question of whether they fit the game that's planned.

In other words, as with many other gaming problems, worrying too much about reality isn't always a good thing. :)

[Blue Jogger]

The biggest secret here is most players will agree what an average person is. (It is clearly defined in the book and everything)

Most people will argue, honestly, that they are above average. I think that was one of the most clever thing done in 5th edition. NPCs are just 8 and you, true believers, start out with 10. Not enough to make any skill rolls better, but you're a 10 in a world of 8s. You are Noteworthy.

[bigdamnhero]

Another thought: if your idea is to run a "normals" game but you're worried your players are going to inflate their stats into heroic-land, one possibility might be to say each character can have at most one stat above 13 (or 15 or wherever you choose to draw the line). That way it becomes a game-balance mechanism, rather than dissing your players' real stats.

[Doctor Agenda]

Lots of threads on this, and a good old chestnut. I think I did this the first time playing Villains and Vigilantes about 25-26 years ago.

From a playability perspective, I'd just give everyone 25 points, tell them to take 25 points in disads, and leave it at that. If the Navy Seal in your group insists he's a 550 point character, explain that it's a 50 point game. If the depressed unemployed wiccan in your group insists that he has 225 points in disads, explain that he gets points for 25 and everything after that isn't worth anything in the game.

If anyone insists on "realism", I'd take them into my weight room and have them demonstrate their deadlifts, then open the Ultimate Brick. That give you their STR score (which of course doesn't really work out, as HERO STR is an abstraction). The other stats are harder to guestimate, but I'd usually say 7 or less = very young, ill or very poorly developed, 8-10 = unexceptional, 11-13 = developed and enough to build a hobby or modest career using that stat, 14-17 = exceptional, draws considerable praise, can build a solid career on that ability, 18-22 = enough to earn lasting, wide spread acclaim in your field if you have the skills to support it, 23+ = world class and almost certainly famous for it unless you're a complete emotional wreck and therefore incapable of holding down a job.

The guys in your office probably have an 8-10 in most stats, and maybe an 11-13 in the stat they use to make their living or pursue their hobbies. If they're really passionate about a hobby or making a really good living based on raw ability, 14-17 is possible, though I'd take it with a grain of salt. 18+ is very unlikely unless you're gaming with top athletes and researchers.

Skills follow, imo, the same pattern. 7- is what most people remember 5 years after they studied a subject, 8-10- in hobbies or whatever they use to make a basic living, 11-13- if they're notably good at their job, 14-17- if they're acknowledged as experts, 18- or higher if they're genuine leaders in their fields.

The high school kid who goes to Karate once or twice a month when he remembers may have KS: Karate 7-. The twenty something who's at the dojo 2-4 days a week because he wants to impress the hot girl who works in Starbucks may have a KS: Karate 8-10- and a few skill levels in Punch/Block/Dodge. The competitive Karateka has a KS 11-, 10+ points in maneuvers, and a few levels with his martial art.

Alternative: Just grab a Dark Champions package and go from there. It's only a game.

I went through a phase in the 90s where I ran Hero games (usually occult adventure) with the players playing themselves, with guidelines very close to this. It worked out pretty well with only a couple of cases of griping about low points or thinking a favorite stat was 5 points higher than anyone else thought it was. If the players are mature and cool, it can be a blast. Especially suited for an apocalyptic game. Everyone loves showing off how resourceful they think they would be.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I agree with many of the benchmarks and such mentioned earlier. STR can be calculated by how much weight you can deadlift. INT can be estimated by IQ/10. Skills should be on 8- for things where you know more about or are better at a given skill than most people, but aren't at the level of a full-time professional. 11- or higher means at least full-time professional-caliber ability. Rolls over 14- or so are quite remarkable.

As an exercise in demonstrating by example, here's my take on... well, me. :)


Derek Hiemforth

Val Char Cost
13 STR 3
8 DEX -6
8 CON -4
14 BODY 8
16 INT 6
8 EGO -4
13 PRE 3
8 COM -1

3 PD 0
2 ED 0
2 SPD 2
5 REC 0
16 END 0
25 STUN 0

4" RUN -4
2" SWIM 0
1 1/2" LEAP -1
Characteristics Cost: 2


Cost Power
5 Eye-Hand Coordination: +5 DEX; Eye-Hand Coordination Only (does not add to CVs, DEX-based Skills, or any other DEX-based tasks other than those based solely on eye-hand coordination; -1 1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [Notes: My reaction time, agility, balance, whole-body coordination, fine motor control, and so forth are all unremarkable. But my eye-hand coordination, used in tasks such as hitting a ball or playing video games, is quite good.]
1 20-10 Vision: +2 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight
2 Massive: Knockback Resistance -1"
Powers Cost: 8


Cost Skill
1 Acting 8- [Notes: Not a professional, but I've done over 20 plays (plus, of course, many years of roleplaying).]
1 Animal Handler (Lagomorphs) 8-
1 Computer Programming 8-
3 KS: General Knowledge/Trivia 12- [Notes: I used to read encyclopedias as a kid, and have an unusually broad base of miscellaneous knowledge. I can count the number of times I've lost at Trivial Pursuit on the fingers of one hand.]
2 KS: RPGs 11-
2 KS: "Offbeat Theories" 11- [Notes: Catch-all for things like alternative interpretations of history, UFO theories, conspiracy theories (both modern like "Who shot JFK?" and historical like "Did the Illuminati engineer the American Revolution?"), occult lore... basically all the kinds of stuff Ken Hite writes about in his Suppressed Transmission books.]
1 KS: Baseball 8- [Notes: Although not knowledgeable enough to be a full-time professional in a baseball-related field, I'm a HUGE baseball nut, and know a lot about Sabermetrics and general baseball lore.]
1 Oratory 8- [Notes: Not a professional, but I've won awards for public speaking.]
0 PS: Computer Support Geek (My Free PS) 11-
1 PS: Singer 8- [Notes: Not a professional, but a former vocal music major in college, and an experienced amateur.]
1 PS: Writer 8- [Notes: Not at the level of someone who writes professionally full-time, but not too shabby I hope.]
Skills Cost: 14


Cost Talent
3 Ambidexterity (-2 Off Hand penalty) [Notes: I do some things naturally left-handed (writing, eating, batting), and other things naturally right-handed (throwing, bowling, feats of strength). I'm not truly ambidextrous, but can use either hand reasonably well for most tasks, and I don't favor one hand nearly as strongly as most people seem to.]
Talents Cost: 3

Total Character Cost: 27

Pts. Disadvantage
15 Distinctive Features: Extremely Obese (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Physical Limitation: Extremely Obese (Frequently, Slightly Impairing)
5 Physical Limitation: Attention Deficit Disorder (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
20 Psychological Limitation: Compulsive Overeater (Very Common, Strong)
10 Psychological Limitation: Curmudgeonly (little patience for stupidity, exaggerated sense of own cleverness, and so forth; Common, Moderate)
5 Social Limitation: Extremely Obese (Frequently, Minor, Not Limiting In Some Cultures)
Disadvantage Points: 65
Base Points: 0
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

[OddHat]

Derek, that leaves your KS:Hero System at a mere 6-. And what about PS: GM?

:D (j/k)

Good write up. :)

[RPMiller]

Derek, you have been repped. Thank you for not only stating your position, but throwing out an example. Well done! :thumbup:

[Derek Hiemforth]

Derek, that leaves your KS:Hero System at a mere 6-.I got special GM permission to treat the "KS: RPGs 11-" as functionally identical to "KS: HERO System 12- (INT-based)" and "KS: Other RPGs 8-". ;)

And what about PS: GM?Whoa, do you know anyone who can make a living (even part-time) as a professional GM?!? I want in on that action! ;)

Seriously, I'm my own worst critic when it comes to my GMing. Even if I thought PS: GM was worth a separate entry from KS: RPGs, I'm not sure I'd have it. :)

[OddHat]

Whoa, do you know anyone who can make a living (even part-time) as a professional GM?!? I want in on that action! ;)

Um, sort of, yes. :)

As an English Conversation Teacher in Japan working for one of the big language schools (NOVA, AEON, Berlitz) your main job is to take a group of 2-4 students and teach them a language item or function in 35 minutes; then 5-10 minutes are set aside to roleplay using that item or function. Pedagogy varies a bit from company to company, but the role play element is almost always there. You're not quite GMing, but it's close.

I've also known a couple of professionals in the sex industry who were effectively LARP GMs.

So, the possibility is there. ;)


Seriously, I'm my own worst critic when it comes to my GMing. Even if I thought PS: GM was worth a separate entry from KS: RPGs, I'm not sure I'd have it. :)

Having been in one of your games, I think you're being too modest there.

[Enforcer84]

I agree. One player (the guy I'm saying 'arrivaderci' to in Da Rules thread) always plays a character with the same personality, which seems to be an idealized (to his own exceptionally testosterone-addled ideals) version of himself, and thus takes it rather personally when he gets beaten on, or his swaggering machismo doesn't impress someone.
Well at least you didn't call me out by name...
:winkgrin:

[wylodmayer]

Yeah, this has come up for my group(s) on many occasions. From playing V&V back in the day to a DnD game where we played our selves, we'd dealt with it quite often. GURPS worked quite well, because it's designed to handle fairly normal people, but I think it's do-able in HERO.

There are a couple of keys, though, and I honestly think these apply just as well when statting out, say, superheroes from comics. You MUST have a grasp on the statistics behind the mechanics. For instance, given the attributes and skill levels assigned to an average cop, say, how does the DEX you just gave your character situate him in a fight with one of those guys? What is his raw percentage chance to hit you? What is yours to hit him? Same for other attributes.

Related to that, it's important to remember that while the Normal CHAR Maximum for the "normal" stats is 20, that they basically describe a bell curve. 10 is average, and the stdevs are at about 13, 16, 19, and 22. Now, interestingly, those generally fall fairly close to the stat-roll and CV break-points. Thus, you can conceptualize someone who has a native stat-roll of 14- (23 stat) as being about 4 stdevs off normal, or slightly less than 1 in 100,000. In fact, that's probably pretty generous, but still, it serves our purposes. For instance, if some player told me that he had a 23 INT, I'd inform him that unless he was as smart as or smarter than everyone in a random sample of 100k adults, then he needs to sit down and be realistic. If he's ever met anyone in his life that he even thought might be as smart or smarter than he is, the odds are he doesn't have a 23 INT.

My last group was pretty honest about these sorts of things; the highest INT anyone claimed was about a 15, and I let it ride, since he's a self taught computer programmer who was making near on a hundred grand a year before he turned thirty, not to mention that he taught himself to play about six different musical instruments and had other talents to boot. He's a smart guy. Now, a previous group I had was ridiculous about it, largely, I think, because they were insecure. I had guys who never visited a gym, never played sports, and who took martial arts for about three months ten years ago telling me that they couldn't take Normal CHAR Maxima because they needed to be able to buy a 21 DEX. Uh huh.

One other thing would help - know how many "levels" in a skill represents what sort of investment of time. Suppose a 3 point base skill buy represents a couple of years of training - like an apprenticeship or an undergrad degree or maybe a slightly longer period of OJT or self teaching. Average people will have an 11- at that point, so that's about right. Anyone who claims a stat that would give him something like a 15- with it right out the door is full of it; he's claiming that with a few years of study he can become a thoroughgoing master of the skill. I don't think so. There's not a lot of granularity in this stuff at the human end. I wouldn't let anyone except people I KNOW to be demonstrably world-class at something have more than a 12-, maybe a 13- with a skill given just a 3 pt investment. It's just not plausible.

As for PSs, that doesn't seem like too much a problem to me, or at least no more a problem than for any game. The scope of the PS is up to the GM, and you can basically buy one for anything you could make a living at. I have PS Student, as I have essentially made a living at it for years, now. (heh) Not all jobs will get you a PS. I was a network tech, but I was a crappy network tech - I do not, and did not even at the time, have PS Network Tech. There's a reason I don't do that anymore. Plus, some jobs require no significant training, or no training that qualifies as a skill. I knew a guy who worked at a convenience store, but he didn't have PS Convenience Store Clerk, because if he went to another convenience store job, he'd have to relearn the only things he did learn on that job because every place does the piddly organizational things differently. A PS is portable, not just the result of learning where things are kept and how they're filled out where you work now. That's a function of native intelligence. I don't need a skill to tell me how to get home. I just know where I live. I got by in this fashion on my network tech job; I knew how things were done at that company, and I could coast by on anything more complex by getting someone else to do it. I had no portable skills, though.

[RPMiller]

Thank you for the well thought out and informative post. Repped! :thumbup:

[casualplayer]

I just recently "thumbnailed" myself for another thread in Hero Games Discussion. Didn't include any gaming related skills or the ubiquitous KS: Trivia.

Don Schamun (casualplayer)

STR 12 DEX 6 CON 11 BOD 13 INT 12 EGO 13 PRE 10 COM 8 PD 4 SPD 2 Everything else straight figured so 11 pts in stats.
Misspent Youth-Lockpicking, Security Systems, Trading
SuperTrucker-Combat Driving, TF: Large Vehicles, Construction Equipment, KS: Midwestern Highways, KS: Interstate System, Bump of Direction
California Redneck-Animal Handler, Survival: Forest, 2 levels w/ Firearms, Environmental Movement: Forest
Given Time I Can Fix It-Mechanics, Electronics, KS: Light Carpentry
Fought Family When We Got Bored-2 levels w/ HTH
Quick Hands and Reactions-+4 Lightning Reflexes for all actions
Devours Books-Speed Reading
Can Work All Day-1/2 END on 8 STR, x2 END on 12 STR
Can Hold a Room-+3 PRE costs END (this is an addition/edit to the previous posting)
Perceptive-+2 w/ all PER Rolls
Excellent Night Vision-+2 Sight PER only for counteracting darkness penalties
Bad Knee--2" Running also Burnout 14- on remaining 4"

Looks like somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-60 pts on Skills and Talents, making me ~ a 75 pt character.

I also in the past have played V&V and statted up friends. It did not go well when I gave my girlfriend of the time lots of skills but mediocre stats when she thought she had much higher raw stats, influenced by her D&D history. I slept cold that night.

I've also been statted up then powered up twice in HERO and once in Marvel SuperHeroes. Those times all went well, and made for fun games.

[OneWingedAngel]

My last gaming group made a routine habit of taking real-world items, scenarios, and characters and items from movies and discussing them in game terms. This was usually done after the game and after "the girls" (the GMs 8 and 12 year old daughters, who were the finest role-players I have every had the privelege of playing with) had gone to bed.

(You wouldn't believe how many ways there are to write a leatherman.)

Naturally, the subject of writing ourselves would eventually come up, so we made a project out of it.

Our stats and disads were determined by everyone else, so as to avoid ego-based inflation. Where possible, we used real-world tests. We went to a gun range to see how many times in a 12 second turn we could move 6 meters and fire a 9mm reliably and accurately (which, btw, averaged at about 3) to determine our in-game speeds.

As far as skills went, we used published package deals wherever appropriate and feasable. The rest were "eye-balled" and were always subject to group debate. We didn't really worry about "percentages" or degrees of skill. The question was "Can you reliably and realistically do X?" if yes, then the skill was assumed bought at a standard characteristic roll.

At the end of it, my friend Randy - who was going through army ranger training at the time - came out highest at around 120. I came out second at around 100 because I hold dan ranking in a martial art and am proficient with most hand-to-hand weapons.

Handled constructively, it's a very entertaining exercise. We never got around to playing ourselves, though.

[wylodmayer]

Ugh. I turn out to be about 11 pts, with 25 pts in Disads. Around 26 pts in skills, most of which are Knowledge Skills that I actually have some basis for believing I can make a living with (i.e.: I do and/or have done so). I didn't buy anything like KS: Gaming or KS: Trivia, although I again have a solid reason for believing I have the latter - I lettered in Quiz Team in undergrad. I suppose with those and some other miscellaneous "hobby" skills, my total skill expenditure should come to about 30 pts, bringing my grand total to around 15 base points and a total of 40 with Disads.

Wow, I'm depressed now.

At least I can say my stats have started to come up somewhat, since I started hitting the gym five days a week (two for strength, three for cardio). Not great, mind you (yet), but better than they were. Which isn't saying much. They had no where to go but up.

On the other hand, I am relatively free of major Disads. Aside from a Social Lim (Grad Student) that keeps me tied to my university and a nearly insignicant Phys Lim (Occasional Insomnia) that screws with me from time to time, I'm pretty free and clear. No Dependences or DNPCs, no major Phys Lims. I have a general Psych Lim (Essentially Altruistic and Law Abiding).

Yup. Pretty boring. No Martial Arts, no skills like Combat Driving or anything like that. I do have Oratory, from my experiences in front of a classroom and at conferences. Yippee.

Yeah, I'd need a superpower or SOMETHING to make me useful in a game.

[bigdamnhero]

At the end of it, my friend Randy - who was going through army ranger training at the time - came out highest at around 120. I came out second at around 100 because I hold dan ranking in a martial art and am proficient with most hand-to-hand weapons.

Ugh. I turn out to be about 11 pts, with 25 pts in Disads.
Again illustrating that a lot depends on who you're gaming with. You can make a campaign work with either, but if you have both in the same group... :D

Personally, my physical stats have gone to **** since health problems in recent years have kept me from exercising regularly. And I fear most of my soldier/cop/etc skills have atrophied as well. Hmm...what I need is a training montage set to a driving rock soundtrack! :rockon:

[wylodmayer]

It's a Montage!

Heh. Actually, the thing is, I'm a big fan of different - sometimes wildly different - power levels in one group. As a friend of mine once said, "If we set Driving and Engineering at the same difficulty level [in discussing game design], why would anyone buy Driving? I can do so much more with Engineering!" I replied, "Yes, but you can't drive anywhere with it."

If the less-powerful characters have useful or even necessary skills that the more powerful one doesn't, the game can be quite interesting. Of course, we've even had some success with less powerful characters who DIDN'T have unique skills. I ran a game once where the "main" character was essentially Batman, and some of the other PCs were his sidekicks (Robin, Batgirl, etc). They varied in power level from each other, but they were all less powerful than he was, and none really had much in the way of skills he didn't. But it worked alright because he couldn't be every where at once. Indeed, because he was the toughest of them all, he usually got stuck wading into the thugs while one of his junior helpers snuck over to turn off the Doomsday Device.

I fully admit, though, that this sort of thing would only work with a group of really mature players, and in a game where the GM was doing his best to make sure that certain objectives had to be met simultaneously.

That having been said, I'll pit my KS: Philosophy against anyone's 200 pts of Ranger Training anyday! Ha! :help:

[casualplayer]

I probably should have included my disads too.

Psy Lim: Cynical (Common, Moderate)
Psy Lim: Wanderlust (Common, Moderate)
Psy Lim: Lecherous (Uncommon, Moderate) Maybe this should be Wandering Eye
Psy Lim: Temper (Common, Strong) This used to be virtually an Enraged
DNPC: Family (wife, two young sons), 14-
DNPC: Destitute parents, 8-
Soc Lim: Look like a thug (Noticed, Minor) This used to be Cop Magnet but I bought it down.

I'm not so many base points after all. :( :o

[Vondy]

Vondy

ST 10
DX 10
CN 10
BY 10
IN 10
EG 10
PR 10
CM 10

PD 2
ED 2
SP 2
RC 4
ED 20
ST 20

4 +2 Hearing Perception

2 The Patience of Job / Determined (Resistance) +2
2 Coolness Under Fire (Resistance) +2

3 +1 Level Small Arms
2 +2 Levels KS: Rabbinic Studies (Midrash and Agadda Only -1)
9 Linguist, Scholar, Jack of Trades

3 Conversation 11-
7 Deduction 13-
1 High Society 8-
1 Navigation (Land) 8-
3 Oratory 11-
3 Streetwise 11-
1 Survival 8-

0 CuK: American Culture 8-
1 CuK: Jewish Culture 8-
1 CuK: Israeli Culture 8-

0 AK: The United States 8-
1 AK: Israel 8-
0 CK: Seattle 11-
1 CK: Jerusalem 8-

1 KS: Jewish Studies 11-
2 KS: Rabbinic Studies 12-
1 KS: Law Enforcement World 11-
1 KS: Military, Paramilitary, Terrorist World 8-
1 KS: Judo and Krav Maga 8-
1 KS: Comparative Religion 8-
1 KS: Cultural Anthropology 8-
1 KS: Classical and Medieval History 8-
1 KS: Epistemology 8-
1 KS: English Literature 8-

0 LS: English (Native): Idiomatic
2 LS: Hebrew (Fully Fluent)
1 LS: Judean Aramaic (Fully Fluent); Read Only -1
1 LS: Latin (Fluent)
1 LS: Ancient Greek (Fluent); Read Only -1
1 LS: Yiddish (Basic Fluency)
1 LS: Ladino (Basic Fluency)
1 LS: German (Basic Fluency)

1 PS: Private Investigator 11-
1 PS: Restaurant Manager 11-
1 PS: Software Test Engineer 11-
1 PS: Warlike Tailor 11-
1 PS: Cook 11-
1 PS: Infantry Rifleman 8-
1 PS: Gamer 8-
1 PS: Cheesemaker 8-
1 PS: Writer 8-

4 WF: Knives, Small Arms, Heavy Machingun
2 TF: Motorized 4-Wheel Vehicles, Motorized 2 Wheel Vehicles, Equines

1 American Passport
1 Israeli Passport
1 Firearms Permit

20 Psychological Limitation: Orthodox Jew (Common, Total)
05 Physical Limitation: Myopic (Mild, Rarely "Correctable")
05 Physical Limitation: Allergies (Mild, Frequent)
15 DNPC: Fatherhood and Marriage X2
05 Social Limitation: Orthodox Jew (Not In Some Cultures)

Design Notes: I left my stats as perfectly normal and modelled things where I'm "above average" with skill enhancers, perks, or skill rolls. I take good care of myself and exercise regularly, but I'm not outstanding. I've always been a "lifter" more than a "runner," but it didn't seem worth putting points into. On intellegence tests I consistantly score way-high on social intelligence, well above average for linguistic intelligence, but am average in most other areas and fall somewhat behind the mark in mathematics and visual pattern recognition. As a result, I gave myself linguist, scholar, and jack of trades with a few key skills, but didn't bother to increase my INT. Also, I'm extremely patient and determined and keep going when most others have given up (which I attribute more success to than smarts), and have been in some extremely hairy situations without freaking out (until after the fact). These were modelled with variations on resistance instead of EGO (this is a house rule - you would have to do presence defence in orthodox hero methodology). In terms of presence, I am often told I am intimidating due to my intensity (I really am a nice guy...) and I have a good feel for people, but I don't really know what is reasonable there. I just went with social skills. I have really sensitive hearing.

I have an eclectic skill set. I have studied both Judo and Krav Maga and can take care of myself, but I'm not in practice and probably don't have the 10 points required to pass the maneuver threshold - thus I have a KS 8-. I'm a pretty good shot, but I'm not a marksman, and was activated as a reservist for lebanon. I probably just have Weapons Fams and 1 level with small arms when all is said and done. I have a broad interest and a good memory, and am conversant in a good number of subjects. I went with 11- in the ones that have been work related (or soon will be), and 8- for the others. I'm good with languages and think what's there is a fair estimate of my abilities. As for professional skills I gave myself an 11- in things I've done for a living (I worked in restaruants through high school, managed them most of the way through university, moved on to be a full-time private investigator and volunteer police officer, and then after my conversion went to work for microsoft. When we moved to Israel I left tech to become a warlike tailor - I don't do much with regular clothing beyond repairs. I have a degree in the administration of criminal justice, and enough credits for degrees in philosophy and history. I felt this was covered by the skills that were there.

81 Total Points / 50 Disadvantage Points

I'm probably 0+50 with 31 points of experience :D

Note: Using Derek's Intelligence equation I would have an 18 in social intelligence (intrapersonal and interpersonal), a 15 in linguistic intelligence, a 10 in most other areas of intelligence, and a 8-9 in mathematic and visual pattern recognition related intelligence. I wouldn't know how to do that with the INT stat as currently written.

[casualplayer]

Interesting design philosophy, Von D. I would throw a little rep on the fire if I could. Maybe later.

[Black Rose]

Note: Using Derek's Intelligence equation I would have an 18 in social intelligence (intrapersonal and interpersonal), a 15 in linguistic intelligence, a 10 in most other areas of intelligence, and a 8-9 in mathematic and visual pattern recognition related intelligence. I wouldn't know how to do that with the INT stat as currently written.

Shift the Social INT to Presence, average the linguistic and "most other areas", and minor PhysLim for the math and pattern recognition?

[Vondy]

Shift the Social INT to Presence, average the linguistic and "most other areas", and minor PhysLim for the math and pattern recognition?

So... I'd have a 17-18 presence, a 13 intelligence, and -1 Negative Skill Level: Mathematics and -2 Negative Skill Levels: Visual Pattern Recognition Rolls? I'll take it!

[wylodmayer]

Perhaps I missed something, somewhere, but what is "Derek's Intelligence equation"?

[OddHat]

Perhaps I missed something, somewhere, but what is "Derek's Intelligence equation"?

I think it's just INT = IQ/10, though I may have missed something as well.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Yep. That's it. I just noted, in an earlier post in this thread, that you could use IQ/10 to approximate INT. An "average" IQ is theoretically 100, which (divided by 10) would equate to a 10 INT. A 200 IQ would be near-record level genius, and would equate to a 20 INT. I believe the highest IQ ever measured was 228, which would equate to a 23 INT, etc.

My own IQ usually tests at around 160, which is why I gave myself a 16 INT. :)

[casualplayer]

I used the same IQ/10 for my "me." I used to test at ~145, but there was that Mensa pattern recognition test that Jeff T posted a while back and I only got 120. Flowers for casualplayer?

[bigdamnhero]

It occurs to me I should probably have +4 PRE with Costs END. I can usually still do the whole Command Presense routine, but I can't keep it up for very long. ;)

Also, I made a joke before about needing a "training montage" to get back in shape. But you know that might actually be a neat trick for avoiding a certain amount of player grousing: structure the plot so that the PCs have say a month or so at the beginning to get back in shape and polish their (existing) skills. That saves you some argument over what’s a Skill and what’s a Familiarity. It’s kindof a “cinematic” solution, but like I said if it makes for a more enjoyable game, so what?

[wylodmayer]

Also, I made a joke before about needing a "training montage" to get back in shape. But you know that might actually be a neat trick for avoiding a certain amount of player grousing: structure the plot so that the PCs have say a month or so at the beginning to get back in shape and polish their (existing) skills. That saves you some argument over what’s a Skill and what’s a Familiarity. It’s kindof a “cinematic” solution, but like I said if it makes for a more enjoyable game, so what?

Hey, that's a good idea. I'm gonna use that next time I run a game of that sort...

[Enforcer84]

Hmm. I think I'll use the points I get for "selling" my characteristics (damn you lazy bastard) to buy my...hmm. I have no appreciable skill either.
Uhm....
PS: Makes Halfway Witty Remarks 11-
Oddly enough with my crushing disadvantages I should have a superheroic character...my player is screwing me over with an abundance of unspent points!

[OddHat]

Hmm. I think I'll use the points I get for "selling" my characteristics (damn you lazy bastard) to buy my...hmm. I have no appreciable skill either.
Uhm....
PS: Makes Halfway Witty Remarks 11-
Oddly enough with my crushing disadvantages I should have a superheroic character...my player is screwing me over with an abundance of unspent points!

Maybe the GM set the disadvantages cap at 25, but your player is the type who likes to heap on tons of extra disads for their roleplay value.

[bigdamnhero]

Maybe the GM set the disadvantages cap at 25, but your player is the type who likes to heap on tons of extra disads for their roleplay value.
"Man, I hate this campaign." ;)

[casualplayer]

Hmm. I think I'll use the points I get for "selling" my characteristics (damn you lazy bastard) to buy my...hmm. I have no appreciable skill either.
Uhm....
PS: Makes Halfway Witty Remarks 11-
Oddly enough with my crushing disadvantages I should have a superheroic character...my player is screwing me over with an abundance of unspent points!

Maybe you have Contacts that you've never met? Maybe you Summoned a belly dancer from Mumbai and she has to get here under her own power? Maybe you have Telepathy: Alien class of minds and are going to come in real handy when they invade?

[Enforcer84]

Maybe you have Contacts that you've never met? Maybe you Summoned a belly dancer from Mumbai and she has to get here under her own power? Maybe you have Telepathy: Alien class of minds and are going to come in real handy when they invade?
I hope to God you are my player....

[casualplayer]

I hope to God you are my player....

Dude, my cerebral jukebox just skipped a groove. What does this mean?

[Gadodel]

For myself, I would include the following on the skill list:
'I've read about that somewhere' PS Reader 11-
'I've heard about that somewhere' PS Listener 11-
'I've seen this before' PS Observer 11-

These would cover things like Current Events, Pop Culture, Trivia as well as General Knowledge and Useful Info type of things...

[AdamLeisemann]

What guidelines do people use, if any, for making real people? For example, if you were to make yourself, how many points would you be, what would your stats look like? Are there some actual measurements that can be used to create yourself? I'm assuming that most people would have some serious disads. Probably more than they have point limits for. Has anyone tried this using 5th?

NOTE: My biggest concern, and I'm absolutely serious, is players "overestimating" their abilities, and just as important "underestimating" their abilities.

I'd give myself -20 base points, like an incompetent normal. But then, I have Depression issues.