Mutants and Materminds

[gregghelmberger]

Ok, I know this is a subject liable to ignite a flame war, but I'm wondering about Mutants and Masterminds. I'm currently running a Champions PBEM and I'm always on the lookout for source material to make my life easier. I just picked up a lot of M&M stuff (Noir, Crooks!, Annual #1 Sourcebook, Freedom City and Foes of Freedom) off eBay for very little money, and I want to know what I can expect. Is the game generally high quality? How does it differ from Hero? And are there any guidelines for converting M&M stats to Hero? Please note, I'm definitely not considering changing the game itself to M&M, I just want to use some material. Any advice or info is appreciated.

[Pattern Ghost]

I don't think you need to fear a flame war, as quite a few folks around here hold M&M in pretty high regard. I haven't played it, but it's on my "to get" list. I think you should be pleased by the quality of the material based on a lot of reviews and threads I've read, and if you're using it for background stuff for a Champions/Hero system game, then the issue of 2nd Edition M&M compatibility should be no problem.

[mattingly]

<Plug Mode On>
Although we do not have published conversion stats, we at BlackWyrm Games have statted two superhero books (The Algernon Files (http://www.blackwyrm.com/Algernon.htm), The Fires of War (http://www.blackwyrm.com/FOW.htm)) for each system. If you think of picking up M&M to run with, we have 2nd Ed M&M versions available; but if you want to raid material for your own Champions game, pick up our HERO System versions. They're available in print and PDF.

[JakSpade]

Ok, I know this is a subject liable to ignite a flame war, but I'm wondering about Mutants and Masterminds. I'm currently running a Champions PBEM and I'm always on the lookout for source material to make my life easier. I just picked up a lot of M&M stuff (Noir, Crooks!, Annual #1 Sourcebook, Freedom City and Foes of Freedom) off eBay for very little money, and I want to know what I can expect. Is the game generally high quality? How does it differ from Hero? And are there any guidelines for converting M&M stats to Hero? Please note, I'm definitely not considering changing the game itself to M&M, I just want to use some material. Any advice or info is appreciated.

The general advice when people talk about converting from two vastly different systems is this: Forget the mechanics and go with the theme. If you know what an ability does in one system, just model it in the other system. Don't worry about point values, balance and what not. Just build it how you think it should work in your system of choice. And Hero/M&M are no different. If you worry too much about getting it "right", then you'll be fiddling a long time.

jak

[Lord Liaden]

Here's all the M&M/HERO conversion material on the Internet that I'm aware of, including MitchellS's fine work.

---------------------------------------------------

4E HERO writeups for many of the characters from the M&M sourcebook Freedom City, by FC author Steve Kenson:
http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html

5E writeup for the Centurion, from Freedom City:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14907

Conversion of M&M First Edition Characteristics, Skills, Feats and Superfeats, and Super-Power points:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23471
[particularly Post #13]

Discussion comparing character and weapon damage capability between M&M and HERO:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14626

Guidelines and examples for converting to M&M 2E from HERO (but mostly usable in the other direction as well):
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=266549

--------------------------------------------------

BTW these were taken from my RPG conversion compilation list, via the link in my signature, below. :)

[OddHat]

<Plug Mode On>
Although we do not have published conversion stats, we at BlackWyrm Games have statted two superhero books (The Algernon Files (http://www.blackwyrm.com/Algernon.htm), The Fires of War (http://www.blackwyrm.com/FOW.htm)) for each system. If you think of picking up M&M to run with, we have 2nd Ed M&M versions available; but if you want to raid material for your own Champions game, pick up our HERO System versions. They're available in print and PDF.

These are extremely good books, and very worth your time.

As to M&M, the quality of the setting and characters is generally high. They have some very good writers and artists.

[gregghelmberger]

Great, thanks for all your input! That will help a lot.

[The Monster]

Ohhhhh - you mean Mutants and *MASTERMINDS*
I thought this was another of those erotic RPG threads.....

Never mind. :whistle:

[gojira]

Mutants and Metermaids?

Cue cheesey music and ... action!

[Balabanto]

Well, I'm NOT a fan of Mutants and Masterminds. There's a number of reasons why I don't like the system, but I'll say this again and again.

On art and presentation, they have Hero beat, and it's KILLING us. While a lot of us aren't "Pretty Pictures" roleplayers, and we can make do with black and white art, I always, when I design an adventure for Digital Hero, try to make it have usefulness beyond itself. One of the ways I do that is by blowing scads of my own money on color artwork.

The other is by making sure most adventures have at least a couple of maps, even if they're of stupid things like a middle class home, or a not so stupid Museum Lobby.

I just draw the roughs (And trust me, they're UGLY) and turn them over to Dave to do.

Nonetheless, there's a lot of valuble writing in those books. I just think Hero's the best system ever made for superheroes, and there's no need to change.

[Lord Mhoram]

I tend to like the source material. The Freedom City setting is more to my taste than CU5th. I tend to like the characters (even if thier source they are homaging is a little to obvious), but they are very well done.
My beef with the stuff is the system, which I can't stand.

[SuperKlaus]

On art and presentation, they have Hero beat, and it's KILLING us.


Ugh, tell me about it. I love this system but my will to purchase supplements fades as I see pictures reprinted over and over, especially considering the core book is all I really need. Much of the art was crap in the first place. It scares me. I tell you when my lotto ticket scores big I'm buying HERO some quality artists.

I wonder if a talent search wouldn't prove fruitful. I mean, I know two guys myself, both students and therefore cheap, both capable of producing at least one or two pictures on a deadline, and both dreaming of having their stuff seen. Here's one's page: http://the-scarlet-deiter.deviantart.com/

Is he good? Maybe, maybe not, it's open to opinion. I like him of course, 'specially because he's doing some character arts for me. Is he better than some of that high-schooler-doodling-in-his-notebook anime-inspired crap that's cropped up a couple times in HERO products? I think that's absolute. And he'd love to get published somehow. He can maybe even handle color, though I'm sure the B&W exclusiveness has more to do with DoJ's funds than artists' abilities.

What do you guys say? Wanna discuss prettyin' HERO up in General or something?

[gojira]

Well, Steve has said that it's a flat-out business decision. They just don't have the money to pay artists, and the extra art doesn't sell enough extra books to justify the investment.

I'd love to see more and better art too, but I understand until someone actually does win the lotto it won't happen. HERO needs some sort of breakthrough so they can hire a couple of extra staff to handle it.

While we are dreaming though, I'd love to see someone made Art Director. That's what they really need, someone very talented who can talk to artists in their own language. Maybe Mark Williams, who used to do art for HERO in the 80's and I understand has his own studio in LA now. Keith Curtis needs to be in the mix somewhere as an experienced artist, and for new artists I'd vote for Jennie Breeden and Danielle Corsetto. Yeow!

[Enforcer84]

It's pretty; I love Steve Kenison's writing.
however, I can't get into the setting. The sheer number of copycat characters loses me.

[OddHat]

It's pretty; I love Steve Kenison's writing.
however, I can't get into the setting.

I think part of what makes me a HERO or GURPS gamer is that I don't really buy a system for the setting. The setting goes a long way to helping me enjoy a game book, and I'm more likely to buy supplements for ideas if the setting is cool, but ultimately I have my own settings I want to build, rather than playing in someone else's.

That isn't to say that you can't use M&M or whatever rules system to build your own setting; of course you can. However, when it comes to the tools for setting building, I prefer HERO. My second choice would be GURPS.

In terms of settings, Godlike and Weapons of the Gods rocked, but the ORE system doesn't appeal to me at all. M&M boasts a pretty good system and a pretty good setting, making it an overall good choice for Supers games. I think HERO is better, but in this kind of comparison personal preference does count.

[ken julian]

I love Champions, it's the only game I play, but until they update Stronghold Mutants & Masterminds' Lockdown is the best book about super prisons I've ever seen. Great maps story ideas , etc. worth the money.

[death tribble]

I have Lockdown. It made me go MEH.
Now Escape from Alcatraz is a great prison book. And I have Grammercy Island which has some wonderful bad guys.

[Lord Mhoram]

. And I have Grammercy Island which has some wonderful bad guys.

Yeah, if you want a dark or Iron age kind of superprison that is amazingly good.

[Enforcer84]

Have you looked much at the Champions universe? :) If Dr. Destroyer wasn't a Dr. Doom copy do you think anyone would still be talking about him 25 years later? Same for Grond and so many others. Copycat characters are what make 4 color gaming [which is what the CU is] interesting.
Yeah, but apparently I believe Darren and Steve are better at it. And I don't count nearly as many.
I'm surprised M&M's Aquaman (Siren's Predicessor) wasn't named Ruhtra; he was at least as bad as something Leifield did.
*cough* Roman*cough*

[Lord Mhoram]

That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. :)

Yeah.
But the homages I see in the HERO stuff is a step back from the character, whereas a number of them in M&M are taken directly (the daughter of Talia and Bats for example). Dr Destroyer is a Doom clone, but he doesn't do magic, or run his own country. That to me is a bit of the difference. But as you said it is subjective.

And even if I am annoyed at the M&M homages (which is a very minor thing) - one of the greatest characters I ever read was in there. Daedalus - I mean how cool is it that the the powered armor/gadgeteer is an immortal greek legend. So you have a mix of mythology and Tech for plotlines and hunteds. I love it. :)

[GrooveD70]

Have you looked much at the Champions universe? :) If Dr. Destroyer wasn't a Dr. Doom copy do you think anyone would still be talking about him 25 years later? Same for Grond and so many others. Copycat characters are what make 4 color gaming [which is what the CU is] interesting.


I agree mitchell. I think the best settings for Supers are homages to the comics we grew up with. I know it is a contradiction, but If I am playing Fantasy Hero and someone shows up with a Drizzt rip off I roll my eyes, but in Champs, I am perfectly ok with a Spider-man ripoff....

[GrooveD70]

As for who's a better writer, that's subjective and doesn't matter. As for homages, you mustn't have been paying attention. Homage lists have been posted to these boards at least 3-4 times.

Defender: Ironman
Nighthawk: Batman
Sapphire: Dazzler
Dr. Siverback: Beast
Kinetik: Flash
Star*Guard: Green Lantern Corp
Fabulous Five: Fantastic Four
Amazing Man I: Mr. Fantastic
Diamond: Thing
Kid Chameleon: Beast Boy
UNTIL: SHIELD
Robert Caliburn: Constantine
MeteorMan: Golden Age Green Lantern
Brin Rei Tam: Abin Sur
Nightwind: Nighthawk


I always thought Nightwind was like Iron Fist.

[Andrew Cermak]

That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. :)

Freedom City has that beat, despite drawing from a significantly smaller pool of characters.

Centurion: Superman
Lady Liberty: Wonder Woman
Johnny Rocket: Flash
Dr. Metropolis: Swamp Thing
Pseudo: Martian Manhunter
Star Knights: Green Lanterns
Bowman: Green Arrow
Arrow: Speedy
Raven: Batman
Sea King: Aquaman
Nereid: Aqualad
Scarab: Dr. Fate
White Lion: Black Panther
Megastar: Captain Marvel
Lantern Jack: The Spectre, by way of The Hanged Man
Eldrich: Dr. Strange
Sonic: Static
Atom Family: Fantastic Four
Midnight: Dr. Mid-Nite
Freedom Eagle: Hawkman
Envoy: Wonder Woman
Patriot: Captain America
Zandar: Tarzan, by way of Ka-Zar

Those are just heroes, and just the ones with write-ups. There are more homage heroes in the timeline and glossary. And that's giving them the benefit of the doubt on some borderline cases, like Daedalus/Iron Man, Black Avenger/Black Lightning, and Captain Thunder/Electro-Superman.

The villains aren't any better. As an example, take the book Time of Crisis. One group of villains? Note for note copies of Flash's Rogues Gallery. Another? Copies of DC's Freedom Fighters, reimagined as alternate universe Nazis. The last is a bunch of super-powered apes led by a Gorilla Grodd homage.

I like homages in moderation. Freedom City is homage laden. I'd rather just game in a published comic book universe than saturate a supposedly original setting with winks and nods.

They even have an homage to Vibe. Vibe.

That said, the books do have great production values and good writing, and if you're someone who wants a lot of homages, well, look no further.

[gojira]

Andy is Hero's art director. He speaks artistese. :)

oops, sorry Andy. I thought DOJ was all writers and editors. :drink:

[SuperKlaus]

You guys sure you're looking at homages / rips instead of characters who're simply the same archetype? I don't know M&M all that well besides noticing some blatant references in the beginning of the core book, but regarding Champs, what makes Defender an Iron Man clone? Armor? Money? A guy can't have armor and money without being Iron Man? I get that he's also involved in business and has some arms dealer's guilt, but the Harmon doesn't feel like Stark to me. Has no dependency on his armor, is less involved in his business dealings, really more like Captain America than Iron Man in outlook.

As I understand it from what little I've read, M&M's problem is that it's very direct. I hear a weapons contractor who built armor to save himself while his (kidneys) were failing and he was captured by (African Islamists) would be no surprise in an M&M book.

And just to emphasize that I'm not intending to strongly bash M&M here I'll agree that Nighthawk is a lame Batman and the Fabulous Five are about as obvious as things get. I'm saying I hear M&M is very direct more often than HERO.

[gojira]

I tend to agree that I don't feel Defender is really that like Iron Man or Sapphire is like Dazzler. If anything they are both rather generic archetypes-- Defender's a Powersuit Brick and Sapphire's an Energy Projector.

Nighthawk definitely == Batman though. :p I get a little vibe of Colossus from Ironclad. It's the metal body thing.

[Cardinal]

Back to the original topic of thre thread, I would like to add my voice to the mutlitude that think some of the M&M source materials are high quality. I only have Freedom City, but I think it is great. I love the 4 color Justice League vibe of the setting. I was inspired enough by the setting that I am playing a Captain Thunder legacy character in a PBEM campaign.

I also think the production values in their books are great... great art, color layout, etc.

I would also like to echo the statement that Daedalus is one of coolest character concepts that I have seen.

[GrooveD70]

I like homages in moderation. Freedom City is homage laden. I'd rather just game in a published comic book universe than saturate a supposedly original setting with winks and nods.

You know I have no logical reason for this, but I have never really wanted to game in the DC or Marvel universe. For some reason I would feel like I was handcuffed to the setting. If the players began to outshine say the Justice League it would feel weird. But the "wink and nod" homages work well for me. They create the right feel and allow the PC's to be the center of the story.

The only way I would be enthusiastic about a Marvel or DC game would be for a one shot or mini campaign that used existing Marvel or DC Characters as PC's. Call me weird.

I thought the homages in Freedom City were kewl. That setting would be my second choice next to the CU.

[Dr. Hercules]

Your not weird, Groove, I feel the same way. I could never get into the Marvel or Dc RPGs because of that. ( And even Star Wars to some extent).

But give me a CU or a FCU (Freedom City Universe) and its all okay.

Oh, and the M&M books are a great source to swipe from.

[steamteck]

YOu just feel constrained if you use the real characters but with winks and nods you can actually have lots of things happen. Sometimes they start out as "Superman" or "ironman" but become something quite different after some play time.

[transmetahuman]

You know I have no logical reason for this, but I have never really wanted to game in the DC or Marvel universe. For some reason I would feel like I was handcuffed to the setting. If the players began to outshine say the Justice League it would feel weird. But the "wink and nod" homages work well for me. They create the right feel and allow the PC's to be the center of the story.

The only way I would be enthusiastic about a Marvel or DC game would be for a one shot or mini campaign that used existing Marvel or DC Characters as PC's. Call me weird.

I thought the homages in Freedom City were kewl. That setting would be my second choice next to the CU.
I feel the same way. Maybe because I'd be certain that one if not most of the other players would be more up on their MU/DCU history than I was. "Come on, everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!"

[OddHat]

I feel the same way. Maybe because I'd be certain that one if not most of the other players would be more up on their MU/DCU history than I was. "Come on, everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!"


I pretty much agree that I wouldn't want to play in a pure Marvel or DC campaign. Still, I love a well done homage character, and the Secret History approach to Superhero universes is my favorite way of building them.

[GrooveD70]

I tend to agree that I don't feel Defender is really that like Iron Man or Sapphire is like Dazzler. If anything they are both rather generic archetypes-- Defender's a Powersuit Brick and Sapphire's an Energy Projector.

Nighthawk definitely == Batman though. :p I get a little vibe of Colossus from Ironclad. It's the metal body thing.

Good point. If I make a character "Arachno-man" that has spider-man like powers but is a rich tech tychoon like Tony Stark am I ripping off Spiderman Iron or both. Is Tony Stark a Bruce Wayne Rip off? :think:

[Kevin Schultz]

"Come on, everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!"

"How'd you know? Bullets...my only weakness..."

from the BurgerLand scene in Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle.

[GrooveD70]

"How'd you know? Bullets...my only weakness..."

from the BurgerLand scene in Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle.

:rofl:

[NoahBody]

Restating what a lot of people have said the Freedom City setting is very well done and loaded with lots of homages (characters and otherwise - The Claremont Academy, frex). The M&M corebook doesn't have any characters or a setting in it, but it does have a bunch of archetypes ('brain in a jar' or 'sinister simian') statted out.
There also the Silver Age Sentinels game which has a reasonably complete setting with lots of characters - although there is a fair amount of 'homage overlap'. Plus the D20 system for supers is, um, not to my taste.

[Enforcer84]

As for who's a better writer, that's subjective and doesn't matter. As for homages, you mustn't have been paying attention. Homage lists have been posted to these boards at least 3-4 times.

Defender: Ironman
Nighthawk: Batman
Sapphire: Dazzler
Dr. Siverback: Beast
Kinetik: Flash
Star*Guard: Green Lantern Corp
Fabulous Five: Fantastic Four
Amazing Man I: Mr. Fantastic
Diamond: Thing
Kid Chameleon: Beast Boy
UNTIL: SHIELD
Robert Caliburn: Constantine
MeteorMan: Golden Age Green Lantern
Brin Rei Tam: Abin Sur
Nightwind: Nighthawk
Prince Marus: Namor
Archon: Orion
Witness: Phantom Stranger
Patriot: Superman/Captain America
Vanguard: Superman

That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. :)
So, Fabulous Five and Amazing Man (member of the Fabulous Five) count as two? Oops you got Diamond in there too... Saphire has very little in in connection with Dazzler, aside from Gender and profession, she doesn't even rollerskate.
Look As far as I know the CU doens't have shape shifting mentalist aliens, a great hunting cat themed ruler of a technological yet tribal themed african nation, and two sets of FF Clones one heroic (Atom Family) and one evil (The Elements)

And, it should be pointed out that just about every powered armor hero can be claimed to be an Iron Man clone,
ditto the batman ones.

Destroyer is a powered armor master villain; his similarity to Doom ends there.

But hey, that's all my opinion; I'm happy you love them so as to defend them.

[Enforcer84]

Back to the original topic of thre thread.
Yeah, sorry about that.

Anyway, like I said: good writing and you probably won't be disappointed. Just wasn't my cup of tea.