Need HELP with attacking weapons.

[pdegeest]

I can't seem to find the rules for attacking an opponent's weapon. One of the players wants to make a character who transforms opponent's weapons into something non-threatening... obviously by using the Transform power. So how do you target/attack a weapon. Do you use the DCV of whoever is holding the weapon or is there some other rule that I'm just not seeing? Any help would be great!

[gojira]

Two thoughts:

1. Previously, I think we decided that any objects size should be considered. Swords and pistols get a bonus to DCV depending on how small they are. I'd use the DCV of the holder, since the holder would be trying to avoid getting hit.

2. Transform is based on BODY, and most objects have low BODY scores. This sounds cheesy to me. I'd either adopt some form of Inherent to give most objects at least as much Power Defense as Def, or disallow it entirely. If you want to render a weapon useless, grab it. And Personal, Unbreakable foci are probably immune, regardless.

What's the SFX of the Transform anyway? Is this "all weapons" or is this only electronics, or only swords, or only chemical powered weapons, etc.?

[Edsel]

See page 292 of 5ER. Since most hand held weapons are accessible Foci they can be targeted with a -2 OCV modifier. The DCV of the foci is the same as the character using it.

[pdegeest]

Thanks for the rules info Edsel... that will make the power a little harder to use.

Heres what the power looks like:

NERFING- Major Transform 8d6, Reduced Endurance (half END; +1/4)(Active Cost 150); Activation Roll 10- (-1 1/4), Limited Target (hand-held weapons only; -1/4). Total Cost: 60 points.

Its designed to work on all hand-held weapons. I understand that it could be cheesy or too powerful but the character's 3 OCV means he's going to miss a lot (especially if the weapons get a bonus to DCV). And the Activation Roll 10- means he's going to miss-fire a lot.

CHARACTER NOTE: He's basically an over-protective parent who's trying to 'child-proof' the world to keep his kids safe. That means he's not going to change the gun into something that would hurt the opponent... he would change it into a sponge or a fruit cake or something. Anyway, he won't use it to harm anyone.

I was hoping all those things (OCV 3, Activation Roll 10-, 'child-proofing') would keep the power from being too broken or game-altering. Do you think its still too powerful? Also, I'm still sort of new to the game so if I wrote it up incorrectly, let me know.

[gojira]

3 OCV? Is this a superhero game?

I do think it's too powerful, and more than a little silly. If the style of game is silly, that's ok then, but for most anything else I'd probably veto it. It's a lot of points, and it's going to be either very effective or not effective at all.

But I'm also reluctant to tell a player "no" if they have a character concept they've worked up. It's bad GMing and doesn't really add that much to their enjoyment. It's possible to regulate this power just by regulating the number of opponents that use foci. If you think you can handle it, then go ahead.

[gojira]

P. S. It's also 120 Active Points (I'm not used to including Reduced End in Active Points). Yeowzer. Is there an Active Point Cap in this campaign?

[pdegeest]

But I'm also reluctant to tell a player "no" if they have a character concept they've worked up. It's bad GMing and doesn't really add that much to their enjoyment. It's possible to regulate this power just by regulating the number of opponents that use foci. If you think you can handle it, then go ahead.

I feel the same way... I don't like to tell a player "no" either. He's been talking about this character for weeks and was so excited to finally make him. Thats why I'd really like to make this work out. As for the low OCV, he wanted to be the team's sidekick and volunteered to have less points then everyone else (all of his primary characteristics are between 8-13). He has 10 Body, 20 Stun, 2 PD/ED so he's dead meat in a fight. 'NERFING' is his only power which is why I let it be so expensive. He's thinks it will be awesome to play a sidekick. I would really prefer him to be a fully powered superhero but I just played a D&D camaign in which the DM picked everyone's class and it sucked... so I'm trying give my players some freedom.

[pdegeest]

P. S. It's also 120 Active Points (I'm not used to including Reduced End in Active Points). Yeowzer. Is there an Active Point Cap in this campaign?

Active Cost = Base Cost x (1 + total value of all Advantages)

Thats on pg. 62 of 5Ed Sidekick Revised. Either way, I agree that that is a lot of active points but I was trying to convince this guy to make his character better and the only thing he wants his character to do is 'NERFING'... so I let him put extra points into it if he added the Activation Roll limitation and he agreed (mostly because I want it to fail a lot). Now the problem is that he'll go down after 1 hit (2 if he's lucky) and his power fails so often that he will be virtually worthless... and that EXACTLY what he wants! I'm used to charcters becoming over-powered and screwing things up but not this.

HA, this thread got a little side-tracked. I really just wanted to know the rules for targeting an opponent's weapon and now I'm complaining about this guys unorthodox hero. Thanks for the info/advice... hopefully I can make it work.

[Doc Democracy]

I think you might have gotten a little distracted by what you want the power to do.

If you want a power that removes an opponents ability to use a power then you would normally use drain or suppress or something like that.

If you simply want to render focus based killing attacks inoperable then you might want to consider an area effect killing attack (only versus focus based killing attacks). You might find this a more effective way of disabling foci. It doesn't matter whether the result of the killing attack leaves the focus a twisted smoking wreck or changes it to a water pistol really....


Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

As a very simple approach, a Transform: Target into Target with No Focuses (or Target with One less Focus) would work, and would allow you to target the character rather than the objects.

[Thia Halmades]

You can also build it as a Drain or Suppress with the SFX: Turns into a NERF weapon until power effect is removed. So if I Suppress your the Killing Attack on your Pistol down to zippy, it turns into a ping-pong-ball gun. Voila. When the suppress is removed, it snaps back into a .45 ACP. This is less points intensive, and a little less broken.

[gojira]

Now the problem is that he'll go down after 1 hit (2 if he's lucky) and his power fails so often that he will be virtually worthless... and that EXACTLY what he wants!

Yeah, I was getting that feeling. Well, I hope your player enjoys himself, he certainly has a different character concept. You should post up the complete character when you can, I'm interested now to see how it turned out.

[PhilFleischmann]

8d6?!? Eight Dice?!? That's an average of 28 BODY. How much BODY do these hand-held weapons have? Try 2d6, or maybe 3d6 if you reall think you need it.

I don't see how it could be too powerful, although it depends on the type of campaign. It's no more effective than a Disarm or a Takaway.

[gojira]

Well, it's permanent. Your opponent can't wrest his weapon back or suddenly dive to recover it. And yes, 8d6 is huge. But if they want to play that way, well, there's no correct way to have fun. It'll be interesting at least, I'm sure.

[Dust Raven]

I'm not sure Transform is the appropriate Power here. I'm assuming the ultimate purpose here is to get rid of an opponent's weapon. That sounds like a Dispel rather than a Transform. Or possibly a KA that's only versus weapons. The SFX is that it transforms into something harmless/useless.

Also, Dispel is neat because it breaks things permanently. The target character can't just turn it back on. And Dispel target's the character with the focus/item, not the item itself, you there's no OCV penalty.

[Sean Waters]

Purely on the 'is this too powerful' point: weapons tend to be OAF, and so you can remove them with a disarm or grab anyway: given that you can buy the martial version for just a few points and take weapons off opponents left right and centre, it doesn't seem to be all THAT powerful an ability in fact.

[gojira]

Some weapons might not be bought as OAF. A "weapon" could even just be an SFX.

[Thia Halmades]

Yeah, but you can't Transform my Ancestral Relic for which I paid points. It's inherent to me -- it may not even be a focus, in which case the SFX breaks down. This is why I suggested Drain/Suppress -- cheaper, works on Anything that has the appropriate power (in this case, Variable Effect (HKA, RKA, EB, HA, +1/2).

I think that you have an excellent point, gojira -- what if I'm using Telekinetic Slash, which I've purchase as a 2d6 HKA (SFX, Energy, Kinetics), IPE (Fully Invisible +1), Reduced END (1/2 END, +1/4). Now I have no "weapon" to disarm, there's no way for NERF Man to slow me down.

However, if he can Suppress ANY Killing Attack, regardless of SFX, then he can make sure "his kids are always safe" because so long as he's on hand, no weapons can harm them. Then, my vicious mental lightsaber that deals Energy damage and requires ED to resist is suddenly Nerfed. Everytime it manifests its an invisible foam sword.

Great.

ME: "Gojira, I'm going to go ahead and wipe this moron out. Kinetic Strike!"

YOU: "Okay Thia... You visualize your mind's razor and the strangest thing happens -- you've envisoned a glow-in-the-dark HE-MAN sword. It bounces harmlessly off of your opponents shoulder."

ME: "..."

YOU: :D

I've had my big bad attack Suppressed; cheap, effective, and can be maintained across multiple targets at once.