Armor & AI

[Valsegul]

Hi, I am trying to set up a charater for a PC, and I am running into a few issues. I was hoping to get some input from everyone.

He wants to build a powered armor suit with a smartalic AI. The problem is he wants the AI to take over if he should go unconscious. So, it goes from a harmless RP element to something that needs a game mechanic. I couldn't think of a way to get it to work with the way one normaly builds powered armor ( OIF ). So, I have been tinkering with making it a body sized vechicle with an AI in that. Everything seemed ok, but with that method the PC can get five times the amount of points to spend. I am not sure if I should alow that, because of the power imbalance.

What are your thoughts?

[Diamond Spear]

I would write it up as a multiform with a Trigger (only when human occupant is unconscious). Then you would have to write up the AI form and give him a Trigger that forces the change back to the "Human" control of the armor when the human becomes conscious again.

(Please keep in mind that for some reason my way of doing things seems to be very different from the average HERO board poster:) )


EDIT**My apologies, that way won't work since the way multipower is built the change would occur but the AI form would still be unconcious. Perhaps Multiform along with a Triggered AID to STUN for the AI form? END EDIT**

[Thia Halmades]

So different that without giving it a ton of thought I agree with him. Few things here.

1) Never, ever, unless you want to cry later, give your PC a Power Armor as a vehicle. I got pimp-slapped for considering this a few months ago; instead he bought it as Independent (-2) because it's irreplaceable. If he loses it, it's GONE. Dem's da breaks. But I'm slightly off topic.

2) First things first, build the AI. It sounds like he's got a little HALO lovin' goin on and he wants to have Cortana on board. Which is totally cool, I haven't written her up yet, but hey. The big question is "How effective is the AI?" The AI you can purchase as a Follower (and get your 1:5 point ratio). The armor I would not let him build as LESS than OAF, depending on how easily you want him to be able to get it back. OIF means if he looses it, he pops down to the Base and puts on a new suit. That might not be what you want (see my signature for a good example of an OIF).

Other peepz will be along with their thoughts. And this is your first post, so though you've been a member, I'm repping you anyway. I'm nice like that. ;)

.... er, that is, as soon as I can. *smacks RepStick against the table.* Damn thing is empty again.

[Hyper-Man]

Isn't there an example of a powered armor suit built as a vehicle in one of the books (Ultimate Vehicle perhaps?)? I seem to recall Killer Shrike posting such a character but I can't find it on his site. I may be confusing it with a Multiform build instead.

[Thia Halmades]

Oh, you absolutely CAN do it this way, but ... here, I'll explain my reasoning and the way it was explained to me.

In most cases, the reason that vehicles and bases and the like are built on 1:5 is because you aren't using them 24/7. In most cases, you have them on, you take them off, you go about your business. Sometimes you'll fight in your vehicle, but mostly you'll be on foot with a couple of "vehicle combat scenes" or good chase scenes so it doesn't go to waste. If you're doing that then absolutely, it can be built as a vehicle with no point issues.

The point issue arises when the character is almost always wearing the suit; then the point break "breaks" because they're getting a much larger benefit than they would if they had to park it outside the bar. The character I'm referring too has a Power Armor that he wears nearly 24/7 -- that's the issue, and the lens I had on coming in to the conversation.

If he's wearing something bulkier (closer to RIFTS(tm)) or something similar, then it'd be perfectly reasonable to build it as a Vehicle. I hope that clears that up.

[Diamond Spear]

.... er, that is, as soon as I can. *smacks RepStick against the table.* Damn thing is empty again.

Mine was charged up so I got him for you.

[Hyper-Man]

Oh, you absolutely CAN do it this way, but ... here, I'll explain my reasoning and the way it was explained to me.

In most cases, the reason that vehicles and bases and the like are built on 1:5 is because you aren't using them 24/7. In most cases, you have them on, you take them off, you go about your business. Sometimes you'll fight in your vehicle, but mostly you'll be on foot with a couple of "vehicle combat scenes" or good chase scenes so it doesn't go to waste. If you're doing that then absolutely, it can be built as a vehicle with no point issues.

The point issue arises when the character is almost always wearing the suit; then the point break "breaks" because they're getting a much larger benefit than they would if they had to park it outside the bar. The character I'm referring too has a Power Armor that he wears nearly 24/7 -- that's the issue, and the lens I had on coming in to the conversation.

If he's wearing something bulkier (closer to RIFTS(tm)) or something similar, then it'd be perfectly reasonable to build it as a Vehicle. I hope that clears that up.

I'd have to look at an example vehicle-as-powered-armor example to confirm but it seems like the "suit" would be more difficult to fight with since many maneuvers that "characters" take for granted would not be available. EVERY combat action would require a piloting roll. The character would not get really get a discount on DEX and SPD since both character and vehicle would need to have same to be "in sync".

[Hyper-Man]

I found Killer Shrike's build from a link in another thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52941&highlight=vehicle+armor

http://www.killershrike.com/millennialmen/characterfiles/Goodspeed/GoodspeedTmp.html

[archermoo]

The armor I would not let him build as LESS than OAF, depending on how easily you want him to be able to get it back. OIF means if he looses it, he pops down to the Base and puts on a new suit. That might not be what you want (see my signature for a good example of an OIF).

As a note, in general OAF would be inappropriate for a suit of power armour. Unless the intent is that a successful disarm lets someone take it away during combat. Accessible vs. Inaccessible doesn't have anything to do with how easy it is to get the focus back. It has to do with how hard it is to take it away from them in the first place. Accessible means that it can be taken away in combat. Inaccessible means that someone would have to spend at least 1 full turn out of combat with the owner unable to resist to take it away.

[Thia Halmades]

As a note, in general OAF would be inappropriate for a suit of power armour. Unless the intent is that a successful disarm lets someone take it away during combat. Accessible vs. Inaccessible doesn't have anything to do with how easy it is to get the focus back. It has to do with how hard it is to take it away from them in the first place. Accessible means that it can be taken away in combat. Inaccessible means that someone would have to spend at least 1 full turn out of combat with the owner unable to resist to take it away.

Note to self. Review design of armor.

[archermoo]

Note to self. Review design of armor.

Note to self: If I play in any of Thia's games, make sure I have Disarm and/or Takeaway, and use it on Bad Guys' armour.

;)

[Dust Raven]

Hi, I am trying to set up a charater for a PC, and I am running into a few issues. I was hoping to get some input from everyone.

He wants to build a powered armor suit with a smartalic AI. The problem is he wants the AI to take over if he should go unconscious. So, it goes from a harmless RP element to something that needs a game mechanic. I couldn't think of a way to get it to work with the way one normaly builds powered armor ( OIF ). So, I have been tinkering with making it a body sized vechicle with an AI in that. Everything seemed ok, but with that method the PC can get five times the amount of points to spend. I am not sure if I should alow that, because of the power imbalance.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts? Don't write it up as a Vehicle. Well, if the player is good and the write-up isn't actually abusive in any way (low DEF and actually get's shot completely off him once or twice during the campaign), then maybe.

Depending upon the character's Powers, you could just build the AI and have it take over his Powers from time to time. I know this has been my snake oil wonder power lately, but it works.

[Kirby]

From The Ultimate Vehicle, pg. 7 under When Is A Vehicle Not A Vehicle?, under IS IT A FOCUS?, second paragraph.

"As a good rule of thumb, a device that moves under its own power, which can be and routinely is attacked separately from the character in combat, and which if attacked [in] combat only takes BODY damage, is a Vehicle, not a Focus. A device that augments or adds to a chaaracter's personal movement, and/or which generally cannot be attacked separately from the character using it, is probably a Focus. That's why most powered armor suits are built as OIFs (or using OIHID), not as Vehicles - they're "personal" to the character, usually don't take damage even when the character wearing them does, and generally don't behave the way vehicles do."

While I apologize for not knowing how to build what you're looking for Valsegul, I do have a question that (as a GM) I would want to know: What does he expect the AI to do for him when he's unconscious? If it's "continue fighting" I'd disallow it right away. If it's simply to fly him home or to the base, that can be done (and actually there's a thread around here somewhere that talks about that).

On a side, reading this thread has made me want to build a character who's schtick or theme is vehicles, but multiple ones (one for air combat, one for ground, one for the cool motorcycle, etc.). I'm looking through The Ultimate Vehicle and Hero System Vehicle to figure out what I want. Too bad that flying saucer is 276 real points. :( And of all things, I might make Bulldozer have these vehicles (I'm trying to get a "reformed" Bulldozer into a HeroCentral campaign).

[Kirby]

Other peepz will be along with their thoughts. And this is your first post, so though you've been a member, I'm repping you anyway. I'm nice like that. ;)

.... er, that is, as soon as I can. *smacks RepStick against the table.* Damn thing is empty again.

Mine was charged up so I got him for you.Ditto on the charged RepStick. Plus, I like to Rep people on their first posts as well. ;) As long as they're not saying mean things and all, you know.

[Killer Shrike]

On a side, reading this thread has made me want to build a character who's schtick or theme is vehicles, but multiple ones (one for air combat, one for ground, one for the cool motorcycle, etc.). I'm looking through The Ultimate Vehicle and Hero System Vehicle to figure out what I want. Too bad that flying saucer is 276 real points. :( And of all things, I might make Bulldozer have these vehicles (I'm trying to get a "reformed" Bulldozer into a HeroCentral campaign).

Mr. Goodspeed (http://www.killershrike.com/millennialmen/characterfiles/Goodspeed/GoodspeedTmp.html)

[Thia Halmades]

See, I knew I had a reason. Just beacuse it's a focus doesn't always mean that you can disarm it. And in this case, no one attacks his armor separately. You are right though, it should have been an OIF not an OAF, that part I whiffed on. :D

In my example, though, it's a "power armor" that operates as though it were a normal suit. Not to be confused with a Mecha or the like.

[archermoo]

See, I knew I had a reason. Just beacuse it's a focus doesn't always mean that you can disarm it. And in this case, no one attacks his armor separately. You are right though, it should have been an OIF not an OAF, that part I whiffed on. :D

In my example, though, it's a "power armor" that operates as though it were a normal suit. Not to be confused with a Mecha or the like.

True, just being a Focus doesn't mean you can disarm it. It has to be an Accessible Focus for you to be able to disarm it. :)

I've personally designed guns for characters using the OIF instead of OAF to model someone who cannot have their gun taken from them in combat.

[PhilFleischmann]

He wants to build a powered armor suit with a smartalic AI. The problem is he wants the AI to take over if he should go unconscious.
What exactly can the AI do when he's unconscious? Can it use all the functions of the power armor and continue to fight? How does one put the AI down? Do they have to do actual damage to the power armor or the AI itself?

It could be that he just keeps fighting on normally, but no longer talks, or maybe talks in the computer's voice. This could be simulated by buying lots of extra STUN. This first, normal, amount of STUN knocks him "unconscious," but he's still a fully functioning character, thanks to the AI, until the rest of the STUN is lost. Limit this second amount of STUN to taste.

[Lord Liaden]

You might consider buying the AI as a Follower, and then buying the Powers of the armor that you want the AI to control with the Advantage, Usable On Others. Those powers would normally be under the control of the living wearer of the armor, but would revert to the AI if the wearer is incapacitated. For example, if the armor has Flight UOO the AI would be able to fly the character away from danger.

This way the character would be paying extra points for any abilities that he wants the AI to back him up with, and you can decide whether particular Powers are unbalancing for the AI to control.

[Checkmate]

If it were me, I'd leave the A.I. as an RP schtick, and just give the character extra STUN as a power. When the character runs out of regular STUN, the A.I. kicks in.

[Sean Waters]

I probably would not allow the construct, but it does depend on how and why it is meant to work that way.

First off if you want the character to still function when unconscious (in effect, at least to follow some basic stuff, like 'fight' and 'run away') then you are circumventing the stun rules. I'd just have the character buy more stun, with a limit as to what he can do with it...

Say character normally has 40 stun, but buys +40 stun limited -1/2 (only for basic functions, include list) sfx = character is unconscious, but the suit fights on.

You CAN build the thing as a vehicle or an automaton, but i don't like that as it is supposed to be the same suit, but will operate very differently as a vehicle (it will take damage, for example) and the defences are going to be expensive as an automaton - in fact they will probably be so high as to make the suit invulnerable in effect, probably ditto as a vehicle, as most armour suits will not let Body damage through at all.

I have allowed a player to run a character who is, in effect, permanently in a vehicle and it worked OK, but it was not a cheap vehicle - you need, for example, some sort of manipulation power if you have limbs, and all kinds of stuff you just take for granted as a character (like running not having a turning circle). Moreover the character was not simply powergaming and the vehicle was built to be vulnerable to damage in combat (basically the cehicle was a metal wolf, the character a disembodied brain in a tiny spider exo who 'lived' inside it)

I would find out what the character is supposed to be able to do when 'unconscious' first, and work from there.

As an aside I'd never ever let a character buy armour with the 'independent' limitation, simply because when you decide to actually apply the limtiation, that is it: character over, unless the armour suit was only a tiny bit of the power he had, or was for a limited run one off.

[Sean Waters]

If it were me, I'd leave the A.I. as an RP schtick, and just give the character extra STUN as a power. When the character runs out of regular STUN, the A.I. kicks in.

I really should read the whole thread before posting huh?:o

[Valsegul]

I just wanted to thank everyone for all their help. I have seen some really great ideas, that will help me out alot. This is just what I love most about Hero System, there are always multipule ways to look at, and solve problems.
Thanks again.

[Thia Halmades]

True, just being a Focus doesn't mean you can disarm it. It has to be an Accessible Focus for you to be able to disarm it. :)

I've personally designed guns for characters using the OIF instead of OAF to model someone who cannot have their gun taken from them in combat.

Hrm. That reminds me of an age old question. How do you model a Chain Gauntlet in HERO? A Chain Gauntlet is a medieval device that went around the sword, kind of like a tether, that kept you from being disarmed. In other words, it turned your OAF into an OIF.

Does this widget already exist? Is it a gauntlet bought with an NPA (any sword up to 60 AP)? Thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

2d6 HKA OAF = 30 points

2d6 HKA OIF = 40 points

40-30=10

10 point OIF = 7 points

Basically it is a naked limitation. Sort of.

Or just buy extra strength to prevent disarming :)

(Or you could re-write every character in the game with a disadvantage: can't disarm a character using a Chain Gauntlet. :D )

[Thia Halmades]

I see that subnote.

/smack

Don't make me follow you all across this board, son. I'll put down a whuppin'!!

However. In this case I think you solved the problem much more eloquently than I did; Chain Gauntlet, OIF, +10 STR, Only to Prevent Disarms.

[PhilFleischmann]

2d6 HKA OAF = 30 points

2d6 HKA OIF = 40 points

40-30=10

10 point OIF = 7 points
Uh, I realize I've been away from the boards for almost a week (I was at my local game convention), but 2d6 HKA OAF is 15 points. 2d6 HKA OIF is 20 points. 20-15=5. 5 points OIF=3 points.