Converting Players to HERO

[AliceTheOwl]

Yesterday, at the start of my Fantasy Hero game, a player remarked that she couldn't go back to D&D now; she liked HERO better. Specifically, she likes the magic system.

Within the game itself, another player was able to pull off two very interesting moves. First, he came up with a very unique use of an allying dragon's tunneling ability (the dragon hollowed out the ground underneath the camp, then giants tossed boulders until the ground collapsed). Then during the main combat, that same player leapt off his horse to deliver a move-through, gaining himself several PRE bonuses and bonuses to damage for surprising the heck out of his target.

It got me wondering whether any of the HERO gamers on this board had similar incidents of having your players realize why you decided to run your game in HERO system, or whether you've had players express a newfound love for the system.

I have to admit, I felt a certain sense of pride in hearing the player remark that she prefers HERO. I must be doing something right. ^ v ^

[gojira]

I think it's best to kidnap new players and "retrain" them in remote camps.


what?

[Sir Ofeelya]

I prefer the "convert or die" approach. Jihad is the only way.

[TheRealVector]

Well, with D20 players I just send them over to the "buying weapons (money or points)" thread and then I've guaranteed that they will never ever consider playing Fantasy Hero. LOL!

[Lord Mhoram]

The new guy in our group has pretty much only played D&D (he's 17 and that is what his dad runs, so it understandable). He had been feeling constrained by it recently, and I had waxed rhapsodic over the versitility of the HERO system. So he wanted to play - and he has really enjoyed it. His parents said that the first few weeks that was all he talked about - HERO.

I felt pretty cool at that point. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, Ive brought many players over to the "dark side" who abandoned other game systems in part or whole in favor of the HERO System.

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play, few want to GM in HERO.

[TheRealVector]

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play, few want to GM in HERO.

Can't we say that about any game system? Always less work to play than to GM.

[AliceTheOwl]

It's a good question. I don't have enough experience to give you much of a basis for comparison. I've run a single D&D session, which I felt was difficult and I spent too much time looking up rules in the book (and I killed a PC - oops!), and I've helped GM a play-by-post and have this Fantasy Hero game I'm GMing.

One could argue that, with more rules, HERO System is harder to learn in its entirety, and you probably shouldn't GM a game without a good understanding of the rules. But I've found myself a lot more comfortable with HERO System because the core concepts are easy to understand, because it's more flexible by nature (so I won't "break" it by fudging a rule or two as I go along), and because I have a lot more people to talk about the nitty-gritties and the overall game philosophy with. ^ v ^

[Sean Waters]

FH is far more controllable than DnD: you can set the feel that you want with the rules and campaign guidance. In fact you could have two diffferent FH games that felt like almost entirely different systems.

That choice and flexibility is the backbone of what CAN make a Hero game great - but it is never great in and of itself - to make a game great, you need to add a GM who has a clear vision of what the system can do and what they want to do with it.

So Yay Hero!

AND

Yay Alice!

[AliceTheOwl]

^ v ^

Thanks.

[Killer Shrike]

Can't we say that about any game system? Always less work to play than to GM.

In relative terms yes, but for whatever reason would be GM's have repeatedly expressed to me their trepidation about running the HERO System.

I think the fact that in the HERO System the GM is expected to have total control over what is and is not in their games to a degree that is far more explicit and far-reaching than in other game systems, is intimidating to some people.

[TheRealVector]

In relative terms yes, but for whatever reason would be GM's have repeatedly expressed to me their trepidation about running the HERO System.

I think the fact that in the HERO System the GM is expected to have total control over what is and is not in their games to a degree that is far more explicit and far-reaching than in other game systems, is intimidating to some people.

Good point. Since I love running the Hero system I didn't think of that.

[RDU Neil]

Combine Sean's post above with KAs right there... and you have the best definition of Hero.


A GM can defined their game as they choose.


A GM MUST define their game very clearly.



The biggest issue is not that Hero can't do something... it is that it CAN do something... lots and lots of somethings, often which shouldn't be in the same game together. THAT is very intimidating for someone to come into as a GM without lots of Hero experience.


As to Alice's examples above... those "play experiences" are exactly what I love about Hero and does win over players. The "generic maneuver" aspect of Hero that allows a player to state things like "I leap off my galloping horse to plow into the villain!" and have that be translatable into mechanics that are different in feel than "I slide out of the saddle and use the momentum to run up to the villain drawing my sword" is critical. The player gets to stay immersed while the GM translates. If the play group has that level of trust, Hero is great. (A good GM makes such play seem effortless because of an understanding of the underlying mechanics of the game... but a new GM, realizing how much is up to them to "judge as appropriate" vs. "read the rule" can be very intimidated.)

[Warp9]

Yeah, Ive brought many players over to the "dark side" who abandoned other game systems in part or whole in favor of the HERO System.

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play, few want to GM in HERO.
It always seems strange to me when I hear this sort of thing.

I pretty much exclusively GM. And for some reason I often end up in groups where half the group members want to sit in the GM chair. We end up fighting over who will get to be the GM.

[AliceTheOwl]

:nonp:

That makes me very jealous. The reason I picked up my game is so that Josh would actually get to PLAY, for once. He was "always a GM, never a player", and it was making him experience a bit of creativity burnout.

[The Monster]

I prefer to GM than play, almost always. I'm just lazy, plus I want others to GM so they can refine their skills (I've spent a fair amount of time introducing people to RPGs and raising them to be GMs, ever since introducing D&D to Lander Hall at UW in 1977). Almost all of my regular group have GMed at least occasionally, at least half of us regularly.

The pressure on the GM to define and control is one of the factors that makes Hero seem harder, plus the fact that everyone has to pretty much define everything their character can do - there's no "I'll just play a wizard" (let alone "I'll just play a fighter!").
The big balancing factor IMO is that once you learn the basic mechanics for Hero, the rest is minor details - you don't have to look up class abilities or feats or spell lists every time you use one.

[RDU Neil]

I prefer to GM than play, almost always. I'm just lazy, plus I want others to GM so they can refine their skills (I've spent a fair amount of time introducing people to RPGs and raising them to be GMs, ever since introducing D&D to Lander Hall at UW in 1977). Almost all of my regular group have GMed at least occasionally, at least half of us regularly.

The pressure on the GM to define and control is one of the factors that makes Hero seem harder, plus the fact that everyone has to pretty much define everything their character can do - there's no "I'll just play a wizard" (let alone "I'll just play a fighter!").
The big balancing factor IMO is that once you learn the basic mechanics for Hero, the rest is minor details - you don't have to look up class abilities or feats or spell lists every time you use one.


Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

[Killer Shrike]

What Ive found, and this is as accurate as any gross generalization, is that people that are used to / comfortable dealing in abstractions and have a flexible mind do well with the HERO system, while those who need concretes don't. As all things are magnified while in the GM's chair this becomes more telling.


The story parts of HERO are the easy part -- since the system can theoretically support just about anything a GM can dream up if they want to take the time to make it do so the GM doesnt have to worry about bending their story to fit the mechanics as is so common when designing sessions for other games.

Its the mechanical resolutions where things get difficult for most. There are so many ways to do the same general thing in the HERO System, often with subtle nuances differentiating variant methods and since each character represents a potentially unique combination of game elements that might interact together internally in strange ways, and interact externally in other strange ways, a good deal of being a HERO System GM is dealing with interpretations of concept, intent, mechanical interactions, and SFX which is a hard blend to get perfect every time.

I think some people are more comfortable with making judgment calls and moving forward than others are, and like being able to make a decision and backfill the mechanics to suit their preference, and for them the HERO System is a great vehicle to GM in. Others would like more of a safety harness to fall back on rather than have to exercise their own arbitration all the time, or just have to invest less thought and effort into the cruchy bits to focus more on the creative side and for them it is a daunting system to run in.


Personally I took to GMing the HERO System like a duck to water, but I've come to perceive that most folks don't.

[Super Squirrel]

There is one tiny little gem about Hero System I really enjoy.

When I was in college, Saturday night was "D&D Night" and, I thin, Tuesday night was "Shadowrun Night" in the collective circle.

But now, it is Via or previously, Sophia's Barbarians. The name of the night is based on the campaign now, not the system. It just shows, again, how much this system truly allows a GM to focus on the game itself and not the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think some of the GM issue also arises from the comfort zone, albeit false, that D&D and similar games provide. To run a D&D game, the typical DM commences with having all the character archetypes laid out for him in the form of races, classes, skills, feats and spells. He assumes, perhaps falsely, that they are balanced.

He then buys a scenario or two (WOTC; Dungeon magazine or any of the numerous open license publishers) and again assumes that is balanced - rightly or wrongly. The perception is that most of the hard work has been done.

Hero doesn't provide that "safety net" feeling - published scenarios are few and far between, and the rules are clear that the GM, not the published rules, will need to enforce the balance. As such, there's a perception (and I've seen it in practice) that it's much easier to GM D&D than Hero.

[Spence]

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

Not to much to say to that. One thing I see as a great opportunity is the "Character Creation Handbook" planned for around Oct 07. The core books and genre books all have info about building PC's in a genre. But not a single Hero book actually tells you how to build a character. I have had more than on person say they couldn't figure out how to build the a first character from the book. While all of the games out there have various levels of complexity in character building with some, IMO, being actually harder because they require the constant reference to a bizzilion mandatory books. But they are almost all easier to start. What I mean is, if you take a game like D&D or the Palladium games. Since they are built on a class/level system it is extremely easy for a new gamer to whip out and character. Pick a class, select a handful of skills/feats/abilities/etc, spend the money and shazam instant character. Now I didn't say it would be a good or viable character. But it is a character and as such allows the new player to understand character creation in a personal sense and give them something to build on for the next ones.

In Hero we really don't have this. There are loads of good advice and several finished examples, but nothing showing the thought process used. A real example of the meaning of "power from effect".

Now if the CCH isn't just a compilation the information needed for character creation, but contains several step by step examples that narrate not just the points and calculations but the reasoning behind them. That would be great.

"Now that we have built Superdudes movement powers, lets move onto offensive powers. Looking back at our concept write up, he has the ability to fire flame blasts from his hands. Just what can they do?" And then show two or three different flame blast builds with the whys and hows, before picking one.

I would have 2-3 Supers, 2-3 Fantasy Hero, 1-2 Dark Champs, 1-2 Pulp, 1 Star Hero, 1 Teen Champ, 1 Post Apocalyptic and 1-2 Martial Artist types.

These examples would cover enough ground to give a very solid foundation in HeroThink concepts. In the end the buyer would have several complete PC's and a guide to how they were built.

Once again, just my 2 cents. But I really do think it would be a great benefit.

[Spence]

I think some of the GM issue also arises from the comfort zone, albeit false, that D&D and similar games provide. To run a D&D game, the typical DM commences with having all the character archetypes laid out for him in the form of races, classes, skills, feats and spells. He assumes, perhaps falsely, that they are balanced.

He then buys a scenario or two (WOTC; Dungeon magazine or any of the numerous open license publishers) and again assumes that is balanced - rightly or wrongly. The perception is that most of the hard work has been done.

Hero doesn't provide that "safety net" feeling - published scenarios are few and far between, and the rules are clear that the GM, not the published rules, will need to enforce the balance. As such, there's a perception (and I've seen it in practice) that it's much easier to GM D&D than Hero.

Ding ding ding. Give that man a prize :D

That is why I always thought having complete balanced "starter adventure" for each line would be great. Not a huge long campaign. But a one-shot. The Champions one-shot would have the Heroes, the Villains and the scenario plus maps. This would give the new Hero gamer something to use as a benchmark. A starting point.

[phookz]

...
The core books and genre books all have info about building PC's in a genre. But not a single Hero book actually tells you how to build a character.
...
There are loads of good advice and several finished examples, but nothing showing the thought process used. A real example of the meaning of "power from effect".
...
"Now that we have built Superdudes movement powers, lets move onto offensive powers. Looking back at our concept write up, he has the ability to fire flame blasts from his hands. Just what can they do?" And then show two or three different flame blast builds with the whys and hows, before picking one.
...
I would have 2-3 Supers, 2-3 Fantasy Hero, 1-2 Dark Champs, 1-2 Pulp, 1 Star Hero, 1 Teen Champ, 1 Post Apocalyptic and 1-2 Martial Artist types.
...
These examples would cover enough ground to give a very solid foundation in HeroThink concepts. In the end the buyer would have several complete PC's and a guide to how they were built.

Once again, just my 2 cents. But I really do think it would be a great benefit.

I had never really considered this, but now that you bring it up, I completely agree. The barrier to entry is pretty high - somebody who has never played HERO is definitely facing an uphill battle when compared to other game systems.

It would be great to have a couple of tutorials for building characters. Complete start to finish examples, from concept to character sheets, that shows how it all works.

The other stuff working against HERO is the flexibility of it. Because it is so flexible, it makes it that much more difficult to do this type of tutorial. Sure, you could run through the creation of a warrior or mage in Fantasy Hero, but Fantasy Hero itself is such a broad genre that what you come up with may not be apropos. Perhaps a tutorial in each of the setting books would be better.

Of course, I'm not a publisher, so I can easily offer up suggestions of a few extra pages because specific page counts are not something that I have to worry about. Until Spence's post, I had not heard of the Character Creation Handbook.

[Thia Halmades]

Don't look at me. Wile_e01 said "Hey, Thia, d20 isn't working for what we're doing. Let's switch to HERO."

Me: "Er... okay." And a month of email with Steve & joining the boards in November... y'all have nearly 3100 posts to refer to for the rest. ;)

[Erkenfresh]

My friends and I played D&D for about three or four years, can't remember. My friend suggested trying a different game, maybe a science fiction based one. I went to the local gaming store and picked it up, 5th Edition Revised. I thumbed through the massive tome, already impressed by the breakdown of characteristics, skills, and powers. Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven, yes inside the store even). I then went on a trip for business and took it with me to read. It took a while, but I read every page. Yes, the "barrier to entry" is quite large, but a GM with the will can do it. Unfortunately, to this day, my players still get confused about a lot of things. I'm baffled by this as they are all engineers and computer science majors, but I manager to retrain them for every session. ;)

HERO brings such consistency to all possible genres of campaigns. It's easy to see how a Fantasy Hero character brought into modern era would fit in (and not fit in). A Cyberpunk sent back in time to mingle with pirates? No problem, HERO can deal with it. And HERO does it in such a way that seems realistic, even in settings that normally aren't.

[Spence]

My friends and I played D&D for about three or four years, can't remember. My friend suggested trying a different game, maybe a science fiction based one. I went to the local gaming store and picked it up, 5th Edition Revised. I thumbed through the massive tome, already impressed by the breakdown of characteristics, skills, and powers. Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven, yes inside the store even). I then went on a trip for business and took it with me to read. It took a while, but I read every page. Yes, the "barrier to entry" is quite large, but a GM with the will can do it. Unfortunately, to this day, my players still get confused about a lot of things. I'm baffled by this as they are all engineers and computer science majors, but I manager to retrain them for every session. ;)

HERO brings such consistency to all possible genres of campaigns. It's easy to see how a Fantasy Hero character brought into modern era would fit in (and not fit in). A Cyberpunk sent back in time to mingle with pirates? No problem, HERO can deal with it. And HERO does it in such a way that seems realistic, even in settings that normally aren't.

Exactly, I'm in 100% agreement.

I guess that is why I think finding a way to cut down that entry barrier is a worthy goal which hasn't been really explored yet.

[gojira]

... Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven, yes inside the store even)....


It's an old building... they really need to fix that hole in the roof.


;)

[BNakagawa]

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.

Write up Ghost Rider, write up Hellboy, write up the Incredibles and so on.

Don't worry about the role playing, they can figure that out on their own.

[gojira]

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.

Write up Ghost Rider, write up Hellboy, write up the Incredibles and so on.

Don't worry about the role playing, they can figure that out on their own.

Totally agree here.

Back in the day, before Hero Designer and before free spread sheets where readily available, the best way to build a character was to flip through Enemies II or something and steal ideas and builds. The supers in the back of the main book, which had both hero and villain options, were also great.

I really miss the plethora of characters that used to be readily available for Hero.

[Silbeg]

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

I don't know if I agree with this, Neil.

In fact, it has been my experience at running convention games, that HERO can be rather simple to learn, or at least no more difficult than any other system.

In fact, I ran a game (last Sunday) where the characters were agents in the Champions Universe (or a reasonable facsimile). One of the players had never played HERO before, but with only a little explaination of some basics (most rolls are 3d6, etc...) she picked it up pretty quickly. Now, maybe the average convention-gamer is more savvy than the average RPGer, I don't know.

Now, the charGen in HERO is probably the biggest hurdle, but a good GM can coach a player through that. In fact, I have GM'd players that never create their own characters (though they may modify them, with xp, etc, as the game goes on). They give me the concept, and we work through the details.

However, I think that there is definitely a perception out there that HERO is significantly more complicated than other systems (such as D20). To that, I would say that it rolling D20 + bonus > DC is no simpler or harder than rolling 3d6 under a target (such as skill, or 11 + OCV - DCV).

GMing HERO may be more difficult, as it takes some experience (especially in a Supers game) to decode whether certain constructs are "ba-roken" or not.

[AliceTheOwl]

I would definitely argue that it's more of a problem of perception than one of actual difficulty. Not that I have a lot of experience to base it on, but I figured it out, and I'm no genius. Once I realized how consistent everything was, the rest of it fell into place for me, and I wasn't even actively trying to learn the system. (Josh had been putting my characters together for me back then.)

Granted, I'm sure Hero Designer makes things a lot easier, but if lazy little me can figure it out, it can't be THAT hard.

[Hyper-Man]

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

[Sean Waters]

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

Whilst I agree with this I think that it is easily solved.

IMO the mechanics of Hero are no more complex than any other system and a good deal more intuitive than most - we don't need took up tables and whatnot - you can work out everything you need to know from the charactersheet and a few simple rules (divide by 5 and add 9 or divide by 3).

In fact I have noticed over the years how many games - including the mighty dnd - seem to be developing some very Hero-like ideas. It must be parallel evolution - couldn't possibly be anything else really :whistle:

The damage system is easy enough to use and as realistic as it needs to be. getting 2 results fdrom one roll is really not that difficult to master.

Skills are easy - straight 3d6 roll against your skill.

The 'roll low is good' thing confuses some but I doubt that is actually a barrier to entry....so what is?

Character generation and the character sheet.

It is half of a BIG, and very no-nonsense (almost wargame-y with the hex grid so prominent on the front) book, whereas a lot of other systems you only need a couple of pages to cover character generation, and even if there is more you rarely need to know all of it.

It requires the application of thought and a reasonably thorough knowledge of the rules to make a decent character - most systems just take you through a random roll flowchart.

We have a charactersheet with 14 characteristics on it. No other game has that. That can be scary for those used to the 'BIG 6'.

The intimidating thing is that it LOOKS complicated and that we don't have a random roll up system for newbies in the core book.

So, what can we do?

Well, first off, read the book, and learn the character generation rules so well you don't need to refer to it much. Keep the book hidden when enticing new players into your web. You can hit them with it later, literally, if they look like they might be making a break for it.

DO NOT TELL THEM: Hero is a system where you can be anyone and do anything. That way lies only pain and madness. Suggest things they might like to be - standard archetypes - they are standard for a reason, and given infinite choice, most players will feel the need to stretch their imagination and often come up with a difficult or impractical build that can be hard to play well.

Introduce the ideas in stages: DO NOT write out the full build on their character sheets with all the advantages and limitations - it just looks freaky, and they are not going to realise how clever you've been to engineer the power just so. Think up a good name for the power, put the total spent points next to it and a little piece of PROSE beneath telling them what it can do.

Tell them 'The game is easy to play - it is all based on d6, 3 of them to determine tasks and often handfuls to determine outcomes; see, easy'. Psycholgy plays its part - if they go IN thinking it is easy they might well maintain that attitude and approach until they are confident enough that it really is.

PLAN your first few games carefully and in a linear fashion - DO NOT launch into a 23 strand uberplot which showcases and highlights every rule in the book. Start simple - a few goons with basic weapons, no funny stuff, that the PCs will whup - then there is no pressure to win that first fight, or at least no real liklihood of losing - and you don't need to introduce power defence and flash defence and lack of weakness and whatnot at this stage.

TAKE YOUR PLAYERS THROUGH COMBAT - it would be good to have a little crib sheet with you with numbered stages. I KNOW that YOU KNOW how it goes - but the experienced player often cuts corners and that is not what we want here. Frankly DnD combat is much more complex than Hero, with all of its attacks of opportunity and five foot steps and so on - Hero is actually more freeform and a lot LESS wargame-y!

My tongue is only half way into my cheek here: I do think that a lot of the trepidation that players feel about Hero is all about appearance, and that IS something we can work on.

[Sean Waters]

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

Nice idea but can I suggest that threatening them is cheaper :D

[Sean Waters]

Nice idea but can I suggest that threatening them is cheaper :D

(although how you threaten someone with a M&M I'm not sure....)

[Erkenfresh]

I shall throw this M&M in your mother's general direction!

[Spence]

I think some of us are talking past each other. Ignore me if I'm the one out in left field :D

Hero System is actually two distinct parts. Character Generation and Play.

The Good:

The Play part is easy and straight forward. IMO much easier that many games, and definitely easier than D20 systems. Everything you need is on the character/vehicle/base sheets will virtually no need to "look up" anything.

The Bad:

Character Generation. (Or base, or vehicle, etc.). While not "hard", it is extremely detailed and requires a completely different approach and method than most other RPG systems. It has no built in safe guards, requirements or constraints relating to "what you can do" or "what is allowed" for concept or design. Without some kind of guidance, newly exposed players flounder and sink because there are too many options available and they cannot find a direction.

So when some of us say Hero has a step entry curve, we generally mean from the character/NPC/vehicle/base creation aspect. Not the actual in game play aspect.

Clear as mud, huh? ;)

[gojira]

Yes, it seems like getting people to play is easy enough if there is a dedicated GM who can ease the process.

What is needed is, I think, a publication that can do the same for anyone. Sidekick does this. But it's a little under marketed right now. I'm hoping that some future all-in-one products like Luche Libre help popularize the system.

[Spence]

Yes, it seems like getting people to play is easy enough if there is a dedicated GM who can ease the process.

What is needed is, I think, a publication that can do the same for anyone. Sidekick does this. But it's a little under marketed right now. I'm hoping that some future all-in-one products like Luche Libre help popularize the system.

I hope the upcoming Character Creation Handbook will tackle the issue.

[Sean Waters]

I hope the upcoming Character Creation Handbook will tackle the issue.

....and at only 723 pages, an easy evening's read....

[RDU Neil]

I think some of us are talking past each other. Ignore me if I'm the one out in left field :D

Hero System is actually two distinct parts. Character Generation and Play.

The Good:

The Play part is easy and straight forward. IMO much easier that many games, and definitely easier than D20 systems. Everything you need is on the character/vehicle/base sheets will virtually no need to "look up" anything.

The Bad:

Character Generation. (Or base, or vehicle, etc.). While not "hard", it is extremely detailed and requires a completely different approach and method than most other RPG systems. It has no built in safe guards, requirements or constraints relating to "what you can do" or "what is allowed" for concept or design. Without some kind of guidance, newly exposed players flounder and sink because there are too many options available and they cannot find a direction.

So when some of us say Hero has a step entry curve, we generally mean from the character/NPC/vehicle/base creation aspect. Not the actual in game play aspect.

Clear as mud, huh? ;)

Absolutely! This is what I'm talking about.

Playing Hero is easy. VERY easy, because a new player can be told, "Just describe things in normal terms... we'll translate that into the appropriate Hero rule." They learn through play.

I've posted time and again how I think Hero is two games... character creation and actual play. I love the game for its actual play... but the generation piece... especially with the tendency over time of layering on crazy levels of detail in the vain pursuit of a "perfectly modeled character" becomes nightmarish. Made even more so because every person has a different perspective... AND THE GAME ENCOURAGES SUCH... on what a "right build" is.

Not only that... but character creation "the game" is fundamentally philosophically a different animal than actual play "the game" in most cases. It is a jarring juxtaposition of play agendas that are supposed to... somehow... create a coherent whole. It can be done... but most often because of a lot of trial and error experience by a relatively coherent play group... and in spite of the system conflict... not because the system encouraged it.

[Silbeg]

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

looks like you can get 4 7oz bags for 11.99 each. The ridiculous thing is there appears to be no volume discount. Bastards!

[archermoo]

....and at only 723 pages, an easy evening's read....

According to Steve (or at least my recollection of what he said) it should be MUCH shorter than that. On the level of the Combat Handbook and Equipment Guide.

[teh bunneh]

Following up on what Sean was saying, I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. :)

[AliceTheOwl]

Very nice. Repped.

Keeping it to a single page is more important than people think, y'know.

[SCUBA Hero]

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.
Yep. :D

That's how I run my "Intro to the Hero System" games at cons - I made a superhero and supervillain team designed to go up against each other and be relatively easy to understand... explain them quickly "Okay, this is Granite, he was a miner who lived through a cave-in and got turned into living granite - he's really strong, really tough, and can leap long distances"... and let them choose with the *idea* of what they can do, without worrying about the mechanics. Then the team gets an all-channels challenge from the supervillains (I use the old animated Superfriends Lex Luthor voice for their leader, 'The Boss'), they develop a plan of attack, and a good old-fashoned super-brawl develops!

I've had some good experiences with this. One player was a twelve-year old girl who chose Granite - at one point she did a Move Through on the enemy brick (Dreadnought), just hit, and I described the GMs discretion knockout - "All of his armored joints lock... steam leaks out... the suit relaxes... you know from your training and experience that he's out of the fight." It was very satisfying for her and the other players. Later, she tried the same move against another villain - needed 10- to hit, rolled 11 (during the fight, I explained the various options and got the players familiar with game mechanics that way; all die rolls were done in the open) - I described how Granite's feet made 4" impressions in the concrete slab, *mere inches from either side of the villains face, but missing and leaving him unscathed*. :eg:

There was good role-playing as well. The Boss was quite impressed with himself - his plans were perfect, if anything went wrong it *must* be someone else's fault. At one point, one of the players (playing 'The Archer') said, "You call *this* a plan??? You couldn't plan a Cub Scout meeting!" The bosses response: (keys microphone) "Okay team, new plan. Everyone attack The Archer!" The Archer spent the next few phases dodging many attacks, but it allowed the rest of the team to get into position and defeat the supervillains. Very heroic! :thumbup:

Ahhh........ good times.

[TheRavenIs]

When I brought Champions to my group, none at the time had ever played anything other than D&D. We all learned the methods together, we all worked on each others C's. Not that we built each other C's but we worked on them to understand the system.

The group I am playing with now has two of the second group of players I ever played with in my home area. They asked questions, the others helped with getting the idea's of the C. We worked out the different issues with the C's.

Now we have two other players that came in around 10 or so years ago, they had the experiance we learned and passed it on. What I see with HERO being the best overall system, is that as others have said, You can do anything with the system.

[Spence]

Following up on what Sean was saying, I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. :)

Fantastic sheets. Do you have an export template you would be willing to share?

A while back I tried to get across this type thing as a concept and see if someone could make it a export template. But failed miserably in getting it across.

[Sean Waters]

Following up on what Sean was saying, I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. :)

They are great - leaving the construction points off really streamlines and simplifies the character sheet and makes it much more instantly comprehensible.

I think that there would be real mileage in having a section of 'end-user' character sheets for free download, or even - I don't have HD so maybe it already can do this - a HD option to print a character sheet with out the construction points.

The perceived problems of complexity for new players simply would not exist.

[Huxley]

I was a slow and leery convert to the HERO system. Our group played namely D20. We had already spent a good chunk of time learning the ins and outs to the system, so we knew right off hand AoO, Which bonuses applied, etc. And then the person who introduced it to me was coming back to it after playing Champions from way back when, so he was a little sketchy on how the rules had evolved. Plus he was a stickler for situational modifiers, of which he needed to look up in the book to make sure everything was going right. And he had a very complex (though now that I know the game, very useful) character sheet that he had designed in Excel. So, all those factors contributing, it took me awhile to really warm up to the system. Now it's ussually the only game I run.

Had I the more streamlined approach that has already been presented here, I probably would have warmed up to the system faster. Before learning the ins and outs of HERO, all I could say was "Yeah, it's flexible, but God, it's homework, and I'm really sick of looking up rules".

[Sean Waters]

The other thing that really strikes me about the keyes_bill character sheets is that they are simple constructions anyway, and this really helps to concentrate the essence of the character to my mind.

I see a lot of complicated builds, especially ones that are designed to mirror comic book characters, and it is refreshing to see the build pared down to the basic essentials, whilst retaining the flavour.

One thing that really did strike me was the Disadvantages section; it seems much more of an integral part of the character sheet and, again, very easily understood.

I must admit to a feeling slightly like vertigo, looking at a Hero character sheet without construction numbers, but I'm sure it will pass :)

[teh bunneh]

Thanks for the compliments. :)

I built the characters in HD, exported them to a simple text file, and then copy/pasted the relevant data into a Publisher file that I designed. I'd be happy to post the Publisher files, though if you don't have MSPub then it won't be much use. Really, you could design something similar in any program that allowed you to do layouts (Publisher, InDesign, Quark, probably even MSWord). The real work is in copying/pasting the character from one format to another.

Any HD geniuses out there know how to do this automatically? :)

[teh bunneh]

As a sidenote/follow-up, when I run Hero at cons and demo games, I only ever bring Sidekick (and sometimes one of the optional books, like the Bestiary). When people want to see the rule book, I show them that and then tell them there's an "advanced" version of the rules that contains a lot more options, plus hints for world-building and other cool things. No one is ever intimidated by Sidekick, and I'm pretty certain I sold a few copies of it at the last Con I went to (just this past weekend, in fact!). :)

[AliceTheOwl]

Yeah, Sidekick is WAY less intimidating. I would imagine that presenting that as the "starter" book would make the whole system a lot more approachable.

It's a lot of the reason why I ordered a copy, despite the fact that I have the PDF and a copy of 5ER.

[Spence]

Thanks for the compliments. :)

I built the characters in HD, exported them to a simple text file, and then copy/pasted the relevant data into a Publisher file that I designed. I'd be happy to post the Publisher files, though if you don't have MSPub then it won't be much use. Really, you could design something similar in any program that allowed you to do layouts (Publisher, InDesign, Quark, probably even MSWord). The real work is in copying/pasting the character from one format to another.

Any HD geniuses out there know how to do this automatically? :)

MSPub I have :thumbup: This will be the first item of constructive use it has ever seen :D

As for HD geniuses, I am NOT one of them. But since I just don't have enough free time to learn the whole HTML thing I have decided to pick up one of the web page builder programs. Since I have an old copy of the MSFrontpage I never used, I am going to load it and upgrade to the newest version (cheaper route for me) and see if it will do the "heavy lifting" for me.


As a sidenote/follow-up, when I run Hero at cons and demo games, I only ever bring Sidekick (and sometimes one of the optional books, like the Bestiary). When people want to see the rule book, I show them that and then tell them there's an "advanced" version of the rules that contains a lot more options, plus hints for world-building and other cool things. No one is ever intimidated by Sidekick, and I'm pretty certain I sold a few copies of it at the last Con I went to (just this past weekend, in fact!). :)


Yeah, Sidekick is WAY less intimidating. I would imagine that presenting that as the "starter" book would make the whole system a lot more approachable.

It's a lot of the reason why I ordered a copy, despite the fact that I have the PDF and a copy of 5ER.

I have five copies I use as handouts. You can't beat it for intro and quick reference.

[zornwil]

Actually, a primary thing I enjoyed a lot about Champions (2nd ed. era) was character creation. It really turned me on to the system more than anything else, now that I think about it, although only by a small margin as I liked the high rationality, too, and the clean design. And the body/stun thing. And.... :)

Seriously, though, I did love character design a lot. I made a very complicated character, breaking all kinds of rules but following by example of those rules.

I found Champions much simpler than AD&D.

I have a hard time, personally, with not seeing under the hood, and when I see a character sheet without mechanics in any system it bugs me. But I understand entirely that's not the general player mentality, and between now and the next con I'm going to update to a format Karmakaze posted somewhere.

[teh bunneh]

I have a hard time, personally, with not seeing under the hood, and when I see a character sheet without mechanics in any system it bugs me. But I understand entirely that's not the general player mentality, and between now and the next con I'm going to update to a format Karmakaze posted somewhere.

Personally, I'm the same way. I want to know how a character was built, and why. But most new players at con games (in my experience) don't really care -- they just want to know how many dice they get to roll. :) For those who do care, I always print out a text version of the character sheet for my own reference, and they are welcome to look at that one.

[Silbeg]

Following up on what Sean was saying, I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. :)

So, any chance of getting those character sheets, or are they hand-made?

I am hoping they start with a Hero Designer export template. Of course, I need to work on limiting the powers on my Con characters. :/

[Silbeg]

The other thing that really strikes me about the keyes_bill character sheets is that they are simple constructions anyway, and this really helps to concentrate the essence of the character to my mind.

I see a lot of complicated builds, especially ones that are designed to mirror comic book characters, and it is refreshing to see the build pared down to the basic essentials, whilst retaining the flavour.

One thing that really did strike me was the Disadvantages section; it seems much more of an integral part of the character sheet and, again, very easily understood.

I must admit to a feeling slightly like vertigo, looking at a Hero character sheet without construction numbers, but I'm sure it will pass :)

I have to agree completely, Sean.
One of the biggest problems I have is making simple characters these days, especially for Cons.

The characters that I ran at the Con of the North can be seen at http://www.silbeg.com/cotn/peacekeepers.html. Note that some are reasonable, but I had a problem keeping all the skills on the printouts. Most of the characters cut off a bit... yeah, probably some more work on the template would help (I modified on by someone... can't recall right now).

One of these days I'll have to start from scratch.

Even if you don't display points, I have not found a way other than hand-editing to remove the active points, modifiers, etc., from the powers. It is probably worth it for a Con to clean those up, but I HD doesn't do it by itself (though, there may be a setting I am missing!)

[teh bunneh]

So, any chance of getting those character sheets, or are they hand-made?

I am hoping they start with a Hero Designer export template. Of course, I need to work on limiting the powers on my Con characters. :/

Hand-made, as I mentioned in post #52. If some brilliant genius wants to make an HD file out of them, please do! (maybe I should post this request on the HD board...)

[Karmakaze]

Even if you don't display points, I have not found a way other than hand-editing to remove the active points, modifiers, etc., from the powers. It is probably worth it for a Con to clean those up, but I HD doesn't do it by itself (though, there may be a setting I am missing!)

I found myself hand-editing especially because some modifiers are more important than others, or can be more clearly worded on the sheet than the 'standard' wording is in the system.

[Silbeg]

Hand-made, as I mentioned in post #52. If some brilliant genius wants to make an HD file out of them, please do! (maybe I should post this request on the HD board...)

d'oh! Missed that post. Heh.

Have to look into doing something with those. While I don't know RTF at all, maybe I can play something like create a MSWord doc, and then export an XSL-FO file (and XSD for it)... Creating an XML export shouldn't be rough...

Hey, and using XSLT... I may even be able to strip out all those nasty costs!!!

Wow... that'd be an "interesting" project... almost as exciting as this post!11!!1 :snicker:

[Lord Hobie]

As anecdotal evidence, I can confirm that most people I introduce to Hero love the simplified sheets at first. The classic Hero sheet layout can be VERY intimidating to newbies, particularly so to RPG newbies in general.

Lord Hobie