Signature Request *CW #7 SPOILERS*

[Powerhouse]

Hi everyone. I hope that people do not mind that I post this topic here since it is more comic than gaming related. I simply wanted to make a request. Please do not read further unless you have read (or don't care about) Civil War #7

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As a Captain America fan, I can't stand what they have done with the character throughout the series and especially now. Just as quiet protest, I'm going to put in all of my sigs "CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES!" For those who may not remember, the phrase "FRODO LIVES" became popular around the 70's as more and more began to read Lord of the Rings. It was an expression of hope and a protest against the fate of the hero who ultimately succumbs (in Frodo's cast, leaves the world of mortals andgoes to the Grey Havens) to the wounds inflicted upon him during his heroic quest.

I think that it applies to Cap.

So, I request that you put in your sig "CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES!" to honor the character, the great writers who created and developed him through the decades, and the fans who embraced him.

Thank you.

[Balabanto]

It is a complete outrage. The jackboot fascists win. And Cap is in JAIL?

Only a total traitor to the causes and ideas of the USA would consider putting Cap in Jail as the CONCLUSION to a story arc where a villain didn't do it. The one time this happened in the past, it was the RED SKULL.

Now it's THE INVINCIBLE IRON MAN?

And the PEOPLE OF AMERICA STOP HIM FROM KNOCKING TONY OUT?

What kind of crackmonkey story is this?

Are these even superheroes at all?

Mark Millar should be investigated for his connections to terrorism. This is ridiculousl

[Hawknight]

I agree. Cap is one of my two favorite heroes (other is Batman), and they have treated him like a b list villian.

Marvel died when Mark Gruenwald died.

CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES!!!

[Superskrull]

Well, I'd say Mark Gruenwald was spinning in his grave, but he was cremated and mixed with the ink in a special edition reprint of his excellent Squadron Supreme series. I can only assume that these puppies are whirling around and bursting into flame as we speak.

[TheQuestionMan]

CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES!

How can they do that too asuch an Iconic character is beyond me. I am Canadian and I respect Captain America.



CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES!

QM

[Brandi]

Me, if I bothered with sigs, I'd be tempted to go with MARK MILLAR LICKS GOATS.

[rjcurrie]

Not having read it, it sounds like it could be a political comment about how America has turned its back on the ideals that made it great.

[input.jack]

Not having read it, it sounds like it could be a political comment about how America has turned its back on the ideals that made it great.

Which might be true, except that in interviews both Millar and Quesada have made it clear that they actually -believe- that Cap was the "bad guy" and Iron Man was in the right.

(Iron Man, who was imprisoning former friends and allies in another dimension without trial, recruiting mass murderers and psychopaths like Venom to be on his side, cloning powerful superbeings and sending them out to KILL those who opposed him...)

[Balabanto]

That's outrageous. A guy who's been Kang, Ultron, Mindwiped the WORLD, and engaged in multiple illegal private corporate military operations on foreign soil is in the right against someone who is fighting for the right to operate legally under the second amendment.

Fascinating. If Millar and Quesada actually KNEW anything about constitutional law, maybe they'd understand what "Provide for the Common Defense" means.

If Captain America were forming a militia for the purpose of maintaining a private army, that would be unconstitutional, but he formed a militia for what he believed was providing for the common defense of all men. That's still LEGAL under the Second Amendment.

[transmetahuman]

Which might be true, except that in interviews both Millar and Quesada have made it clear that they actually -believe- that Cap was the "bad guy" and Iron Man was in the right.

(Iron Man, who was imprisoning former friends and allies in another dimension without trial, recruiting mass murderers and psychopaths like Venom to be on his side, cloning powerful superbeings and sending them out to KILL those who opposed him...)
The impression I had is that they thought that having supers required to register was right - something that, if it was the real world, I'd agree with. Vigilantes without accountability are a horrible idea.

What burns everyone is the ridiculous/draconian/fascist lengths that the pro-registration side went to; the manner in which the enforcement of the law was carried out (and granted, for some, the permanent loss of some beloved traditional superhero tropes from the MU). I don't know if Millar/Quesada/whoever are saying they think Iron Man was right, or heroic, or even "not a complete d**chebag", so much as they're saying he happened to be on the right side of the argument.

Though I haven't read a single CW story, so what do I know.

[GestaltBennie]

On a similar note:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/757458/CWin30-04.jpg

[assault]

On a similar note:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/757458/CWin30-04.jpg

Very clever. :D

If I was going to nitpick, it would be to point out that Cap himself had his own period of a**hattery (http://stlcomics.com/columns/ironslab/III/full/cap76.jpg), which was so embarassing that Marvel later said "that wasn't the real Cap...".

[L. Marcus]

. . . Is that a kid sidekick?! I never knew Cap had one!

[Pyre-Archer]

As I said in a prior post, some time back...

Porcelain age of comics. As in 'what the bowl this whole thing should have been tossed down is made of'. If only for using Asimov as a justification for totalitarianism. Guessing Reed missed the chapter about the Mule, then.

So, Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic: Who's butt would you kick first?

And the kid's name is Bucky. He was dead for a while, but got better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Which might be true, except that in interviews both Millar and Quesada have made it clear that they actually -believe- that Cap was the "bad guy" and Iron Man was in the right.

(Iron Man, who was imprisoning former friends and allies in another dimension without trial, recruiting mass murderers and psychopaths like Venom to be on his side, cloning powerful superbeings and sending them out to KILL those who opposed him...)

Moving dangerously towards NGD territory, but it seems a lot of seemingly unconstitutional actions have been taken in the interests of protecting people from terrorism. People have been imrisoned indefinitely without trial. Soldiers have been sent out against "those who oppose them". If I agree with those actions (and I have to assume many do), how is it a stretch that people would agree with similar actions to protect the general populace against people who have that kind of power?

As to whether Iron Man is in the right, my biggest disappointment in CW to date (and I'm an easy month behind in reading my comics) was how quickly the series and related issues of other books painted Pro-registration as a bunch of fascists. For the series to have really worked, the readers needed to see the case for both sides, and regret the fact that well-intentioned people on both sides were being injured and killed.

[Balabanto]

Again, Hugh, that's the fault of the writers. The problem really with the series is the host of crap that has been done to Iron Man, if you really think about it.

Those of us who have been reading comics forever say things like "My god! You !@#$$!ing nutbar! You can't SERIOUSLY put this ex-alcoholic who was formerly both A) Kang and B) Ultron in charge of registering all superheroes.

Do I think that host of crap sucked? I sure do! I'm a huge Iron Man fan. But that doesn't mean that it didn't happen, and that now the people of 616 have to live with the richest man in the world being an A-1 cuckoo.

If Iron Man and Reed Richards seemed unreasonable, it's because the premises behind their actions seemed unreasonable.

It really seems to me that what they were writing about WASN'T fascism at all. It was about writer bitchiness versus fan desire, and telling us how much we suck.

Iron Man and Reed Richards represent marketing researchers, who do their research and try to establish a corporate model that will make money for the corporation based on these equations and projections.

Captain America represents the ideal employee who says "Why the hell are you punishing me for the incompetence of these other morons?" And let me tell you, I face this situation at work EVERY DAY.

[TheQuestionMan]

Very clever. :D

If I was going to nitpick, it would be to point out that Cap himself had his own period of a**hattery (http://stlcomics.com/columns/ironslab/III/full/cap76.jpg), which was so embarassing that Marvel later said "that wasn't the real Cap...".
That wasn't Steve Rogers, that was his replacement.

Cheers

QM

[freakboy6117]

I've said it before but that was the biggest problem with civil war it was to compressed if it had been spread over 2 years ( or even a full year like say 52) maybe it could have had the pathos it was aiming for but as it was it was little more than a railroading exercise and swamped in amongst all the other world shattering super cross over events happening over the last 18 months.

|I mean trying to deal with teh fallout of three cross title epics in the space of 6 months is just crazy.

[Powerhouse]

Just posting to thank everyone for their responses so far, especially the ones who made the sig change.

I would ask that we be careful in how close we veer towards NGD even as I admit that it can be tough to do so given the blatant and ham-handed allegory of CW. I just can't stand how the characters were written in ways that defied logic, thier known personalities, and histories to pull off this, as one poster noted, a rail roaded plot.

Everyone keep the faith, keep 'em flying, and Stars and Stripes Forever!

[assault]

That wasn't Steve Rogers, that was his replacement.

Did you actually read what you quoted?

It was Steve Rogers. Marvel only decided otherwise almost twenty years later.

And, incidentally, it was the original Bucky, too.

All the fluff about the four Captain Americas is total retcon.

[Balabanto]

Uh, no, 1950's Captain America was someone different.

Besides, Captain America vs. 1950's Captain America is probably one of my all time favorite comic book fights ever, even if it's not in the top ten anymore.

[Hugh Neilson]

Did you actually read what you quoted?

It was Steve Rogers. Marvel only decided otherwise almost twenty years later.

And, incidentally, it was the original Bucky, too.

All the fluff about the four Captain Americas is total retcon.

Well, there were cap comics briefly in the '50s, with Steve Rogers and Bucky. But if they WERE the same Steve and Bucky, how come Bucky was a teenager still in school?

The 1970's "second Cap" stor was an attempt to explain how Cap could have been frozen before WWII ended, but also have been active in the 1950's. I guess Avengers #4 was a retcon, and everything since should be ignored.

[assault]

Uh, no, 1950's Captain America was someone different.

It seems to have been ambiguous. There's an interesting description of them here (http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2006/07/alan_kistlers_p_17.shtml).

[assault]

I guess Avengers #4 was a retcon, and everything since should be ignored.

Works for me! ;)

[Shaft]

I don't suppose Superboy could punch Marvel's reality for us instead...

[transmetahuman]

I don't suppose Superboy could punch Marvel's reality for us instead...
Haha... maybe someone could just punch the Scarlet Witch repeatedly until she gets it right.

Or the writers...

[input.jack]

Haha... maybe someone could just punch the Scarlet Witch repeatedly until she gets it right....

Hi, Hank.





















;)

[Powerhouse]

Bumping this thread after the TRAVESTY that is Captain America 25. I can't even say anything else right now...

[Balabanto]

The problem isn't Captain America #25. The problem is everything surrounding it.

[Powerhouse]

The problem isn't Captain America #25. The problem is everything surrounding it.

Good point. Captain America #25 itself was well written and Bru has always treated Cap well. It's the crap that was Civil War and the mandate (I assume it wasn't Bru's desire) to whack Cap from the editors that is creating all of this nonsense.

[Jeff T.]

As noted in a links from various places, Cap's death is all Brubaker's idea. He's had it planned for awhile now and the circumstances of CW allowed him to go forward with it. Supposedly he has the next 2 years of the Cap comic already plotted out.

Although, why anyone would want to read a Cap comic without Steve Rogers is beyond me. *shrugs*

[Balabanto]

Well, that's 49 issues, so I hope there's a slam-bang issue #50.

[saiyanslayer]

Very clever. :D

If I was going to nitpick, it would be to point out that Cap himself had his own period of a**hattery (http://stlcomics.com/columns/ironslab/III/full/cap76.jpg), which was so embarassing that Marvel later said "that wasn't the real Cap...".

then you'll love this:
http://errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2006-10-05