Lims controlling multipower switching

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm in the process of doing up different stuff for my FH campaign, and I have a basic idea for a type of magic system, and am unsure of what kind of limitation value I need on a MP reserve.

This is way the thing works - at the start of the day, the character chooses two or three abilities that he can access that day. These abilities once chosen are either constant (like DCV or Def), or intant abilities that he can access anytime (say an EB). Once those are chosen they cannot be changed until the next day.

The other thing is that each ability has to have a minimum effect all the time (say 10 active points per slot) - so if you have a 50 pt multipower, and you choose three abilities that is 30 pts of your multipower reserve in use all day.

The last thing is that the character has controll of how much above the minimum they can have going at a time - each slot will be a multi and the character can shift around any points he has over the minimums of the powers.

I'm unsure of exactly how much in limitations that is worth - it is definatly less powerful than a raw multipower, but I'm not sure just how much. I tend to -1 for everything, but when I design my stuff for my game, I tend to go overboard on lims to make things a little cheaper for the characters. :) So I was just looking for other input. And yeah this will be a reserve only limitation. :)

Setting the slot takes some time, but once it is set, there isn't any time lim - so I don't know if that is even worth a lim - it would only come up if the PCs are attacked in the morning before the character had a chance to set the abilities that day.

And if anyone is curious this is adapting the Magic of Incarnum for D&D.

[Thia Halmades]

I'm too focused at the moment to go dredging up MoI, although I think I have it on the shelf, I never really used it. Lemme repeat back what you said in your own words:

There's an MP with a total of 50 points in it. Each power in the MP must have a minimum of 10 points. Ergo, the most powers the PC can have at one time is, say, 5. At the start of the day, the PC selects the appropriate group of powers (a total of 50 points worth) which he then cannot change for the rest of the day, right?

The preparation time is Extra Time, Only to Activate. What you're describing to me is a very, very complicated Lockout, for -1/2. Since I could have 20 some powers, but can only use 4 or 5, and the ones I select are there throughout the day, that's what I could work with. Listed as "Lockout (See Text, -1/2)."

DTH?

[Hugh Neilson]

So the character effectively requires one day to change the alocation of his multipower. That sounds a lot like each charge has Extra Time, Only to Activate, 1 day (-2).

However, unlike Extra Time, the character does not have to specify today which power(s) he will activate tomorrow. That's definitely less limiting, since he doesn't always have to waith 24 hours to get the power he wants up and running. As well, the character presumably can't be "interrupted" from activating the power, nor is he prevented from taing other actions of any type in the interim. With this in mind, I thionk -1 seems reasonable.

However, I question whether it should apply to the pool, the slots, or both. It seems to me that the character will always have the pool available. If the character is distracted during the "change window", what happens? Would he be able to rearrange the slots at a later time in the day, and simply have the 24 hour restriction kick in again starting at that time? Would he be locked with the slots he had yesterday? or would he have selected no slots, so the MP is useless until tomorrow?

If the restriction is "24 hours must opass, then you may change at any time thereafter, then 24 more hours must pass", or if it's "You can change every day at this time; if you don't, the same slots stick around", I would suggest the limitation only limits the slots. The pool is always available.

If the restriction is "Your multipower starts "OFF" and switches "ON" only if yiou allocate points at the specified time, otherwise it switches back OFF until you spend 24 hours waiting to activate it, I would apply the limit to both slot and pool.

Consider this:

Character A has an 8d6 EB and pays 40 points.

Character B has an 8d6 EB and an 8d6 Flash in a multipower, both Ultras, so pays 48 points.

Character C has the same multipower, but is restricted on how often/when he may change slots. He should pay less than 48 points since he's more limited than character B, but should not pay less than 40 points, since he possesses an option Character A lacks. Even if it takes a century to change from EB to Flash, he still has the same EB as Character A during that century.

[Lord Mhoram]

I

There's an MP with a total of 50 points in it. Each power in the MP must have a minimum of 10 points. Ergo, the most powers the PC can have at one time is, say, 5. At the start of the day, the PC selects the appropriate group of powers (a total of 50 points worth) which he then cannot change for the rest of the day, right?

DTH?

Pretty close. They might only have say 3. Each one has to maintain 10 points, and the other 20 points can be shifted around as normal. For example out of 10 possible slots, the player chooses 3/3 0 end FF, +2 OCV, and +10 STR. Those stay as they are. Throughout the day the player can split 20 active points between those slots - so they could have an additional +20 STR at one point, and when they meet the dragon add +6/6 D ect.

I hadn't even thought of lockout. That does seem a good way to model it. Mentally I think of Lockout as "Ultra slots without a multipower" so I didn't even think to apply it to a multipower.

[Lord Mhoram]

The preparation time is Extra Time, Only to Activate.

DTH?

But in a previous comment Steve basically said that if there is a lenghty startup time that wouldn't later hinder the character that it falls under the "A limitations which doesn't limit the power isn't worth any points"... I was just musing out loud if that is worth a quarter.

[Lord Mhoram]

Character C has the same multipower, but is restricted on how often/when he may change slots. He should pay less than 48 points since he's more limited than character B, but should not pay less than 40 points, since he possesses an option Character A lacks. Even if it takes a century to change from EB to Flash, he still has the same EB as Character A during that century.

You always cut right the center of things Hugh. Thanks. That is why I posted the question.

As for the way it works - the allocation of the slots are lost after the character sleeps for an hour or so (SFX of needing a concious mind to maintain the focus, even if it takes no real concentration). After that time, when the character wakes up, the MP is empty, and cannot be used until the time is taken to assign the slots. If this time is interupted, they don't lose ability to set them at a later time, when uninteruppted, say 30 minutes later.

So in that case the character is worse off than the person who just bought the EB, because he can loose access to it. :)

[ghost-angel]

Honestly, it all just sounds like some rules for your Magic System.

I would call the entire shebang a Laws Of Magic Limitation (-1).

Then set forth the Laws. Fast, simple, and easily spelled out.

[Lord Mhoram]

Honestly, it all just sounds like some rules for your Magic System.



:)

Yeah, and when written for the game, I would present it as such, but I as the creator want to know exactly how it is built using the rules. :)

I've finally decied on the following -
The reserve and slots get a -1/4 lim for magic (which included no Push and some other minor things) extra time to activate a slot (5 mintues) start of day -1/4 (I think that the whole "cannot use your slots due to not being able to set them up" will come into play about that much.
The slots themselves get a "Must keep a minimum of X points alloted to reserve" with X changing from power to power but hovering around 10-15 - this is a -1/2, and all slots have to be Multi slots (which ignoring the other lims, but the slot cost between multi and ultra which seems just about right).

So overall the reserve gets a -1/2 and the slots get a -1.
Which costs just about how I wanted.

[Sean Waters]

Each slot is built as:

10 point ultra (1) and 40 point multi (8) for a total of 9 points per slot.

The limtiation value on chosing the slots should be a limtiation based ont he number of slots you've bought: -1/2 if you have 3 or 4 slots, -3/4 if you have 5-8, -1 if you have 9-16 etc

So a 50 point pool with 4 slots would cost 33 + 36 (or +24 if you allowed the limtis on each slot too) for a cost of 66 (or 57). You could pick 1 to 4 powers to use that day: 1 at 50 points, 2 at up to 40, 3 at up to 30 or 4 at up to 20.

5 slots would cost you 28+45 (or 25) for a total of 73 (or 53). Hmm. That's silly - more slots , less cost. Don't allow it to apply to the slot cost too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Pretty close. They might only have say 3. Each one has to maintain 10 points, and the other 20 points can be shifted around as normal. For example out of 10 possible slots, the player chooses 3/3 0 end FF, +2 OCV, and +10 STR. Those stay as they are. Throughout the day the player can split 20 active points between those slots - so they could have an additional +20 STR at one point, and when they meet the dragon add +6/6 D ect.

I hadn't even thought of lockout. That does seem a good way to model it. Mentally I think of Lockout as "Ultra slots without a multipower" so I didn't even think to apply it to a multipower.


You always cut right the center of things Hugh. Thanks. That is why I posted the question.

As for the way it works - the allocation of the slots are lost after the character sleeps for an hour or so (SFX of needing a concious mind to maintain the focus, even if it takes no real concentration). After that time, when the character wakes up, the MP is empty, and cannot be used until the time is taken to assign the slots. If this time is interupted, they don't lose ability to set them at a later time, when uninteruppted, say 30 minutes later.

So in that case the character is worse off than the person who just bought the EB, because he can loose access to it. :)


I'm confused. Let's use your example of a 50 point MP, with numeorus 10 point slots, of which 30 points must be pre-allocated. What does that character have when awakened from a sound sleep? Sounds like a 20 point pool which he can use for any slots he wishes, with the remaining 30 point pool waiting fro him to spend the time to allocate them.

With that in mind, I'd say the added 30 points of the pool has "Extra Time: Only to Activate", but only for the period of time that the character requires to activate it, not for the full 24 hours. Since the pool spillover can be used for any of the slots, none of the slots would be limited.

[ghost-angel]

I'm confused. Let's use your example of a 50 point MP, with numeorus 10 point slots, of which 30 points must be pre-allocated. What does that character have when awakened from a sound sleep? Sounds like a 20 point pool which he can use for any slots he wishes, with the remaining 30 point pool waiting fro him to spend the time to allocate them.

With that in mind, I'd say the added 30 points of the pool has "Extra Time: Only to Activate", but only for the period of time that the character requires to activate it, not for the full 24 hours. Since the pool spillover can be used for any of the slots, none of the slots would be limited.

Actually what I think is going on is when the mage awakens he chooses 3 Spells he wants access to during that day. Say his 50pt Multipower has 10 Spells in it.

He chooses those 3 Spells he thinks he'll need during the day - for the rest of the day those spells (Slots) take a minimum of 10pt of the Pool each. So of the 50 points available to the mage 30 are always used up.

Meaning any one of those three spells, given a 50pt Pool, can only get up to 30 Active Points:

50 Pt Pool - (3x10 Spells) = 20Pts.
Each spell sitting at 10 Active Points can utilize the unused 20pts, for a total of 30 Active Points for 1 Spell.

So those 20 Points can only be used on the 3 Prepared Spells - not any Slot.

[tesuji]

My 2 pesos...

the 10 ap minimum is reflected by buying the slots with 10 ap ULTRA and the rest multi. So a non-limited 12d6 Eb slot would cost 7, not 6 (3 for 10/5 + 5 for 50/10)

For the pick three at start of day, i would apply a lim based on the number of slots available, how many are being cut out, if 6 slots were available then 3 would be "hallf effective" and use the typical limited power levels of lim.

However, that lim would apply to SLOTS not to reserve.

you don't want to apply lims to the reserve for things which won't apply during USE of the actual power. TAKES ONE TURN TO CHANGE SLOTS would be a slot lim, whereas TAKES 1 TURN TO USE POWER would apply to pool (and slot) IF every slot had it.

Otherwise, its easy to get a "difficult to change" set of powers cheaper than having "cannot change at all" powers.

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm confused. Let's use your example of a 50 point MP, with numeorus 10 point slots, of which 30 points must be pre-allocated. What does that character have when awakened from a sound sleep? .

When he awakens he has zilch, nada nothing.

Once he takes the time to prepare, then he has however many different abilities he decided on. If min cost of the abilities he has chosen are below the max of the multipower reserve he can enhance any of the slots he has chosen in any way during the day, shifting around the extra.

[Lord Mhoram]

Actually what I think is going on is when the mage awakens he chooses 3 Spells he wants access to during that day. Say his 50pt Multipower has 10 Spells in it.

He chooses those 3 Spells he thinks he'll need during the day - for the rest of the day those spells (Slots) take a minimum of 10pt of the Pool each. So of the 50 points available to the mage 30 are always used up.

Meaning any one of those three spells, given a 50pt Pool, can only get up to 30 Active Points:

50 Pt Pool - (3x10 Spells) = 20Pts.
Each spell sitting at 10 Active Points can utilize the unused 20pts, for a total of 30 Active Points for 1 Spell.

So those 20 Points can only be used on the 3 Prepared Spells - not any Slot.

Exactamundo - the player chooses what is active that day, and the rest of the multipower is the extra power that he can shunt from spell to spell at any time he wants. He just must maintain the minimum all day.

[Lord Mhoram]

Otherwise, its easy to get a "difficult to change" set of powers cheaper than having "cannot change at all" powers.

Yeah, that was what Hugh pointed out.


Overall -

I have thought about doing the ultra + mulit, and I may do that in stead of the limited slot - I just didn't want the paperwork of two slots, and was trying to simulate it with a lim, instead of doing it that way. I may do it so anyway. :)

And there isn't a limitation on how many slots a character can choose to have, other than the reserve of the multipower. If a character had 10 slots and a 100 pt multi he could put 10 powers up, and have no extra to power any of them up that day, and the next day, only use 3 with 70 pts to be able to power things up.

[ghost-angel]

My 2 pesos...

the 10 ap minimum is reflected by buying the slots with 10 ap ULTRA and the rest multi. So a non-limited 12d6 Eb slot would cost 7, not 6 (3 for 10/5 + 5 for 50/10)

For the pick three at start of day, i would apply a lim based on the number of slots available, how many are being cut out, if 6 slots were available then 3 would be "hallf effective" and use the typical limited power levels of lim.

However, that lim would apply to SLOTS not to reserve.

you don't want to apply lims to the reserve for things which won't apply during USE of the actual power. TAKES ONE TURN TO CHANGE SLOTS would be a slot lim, whereas TAKES 1 TURN TO USE POWER would apply to pool (and slot) IF every slot had it.

Otherwise, its easy to get a "difficult to change" set of powers cheaper than having "cannot change at all" powers.

The by the book example of Takes Full Turn To Change Slots is a Pool Limitation, not a Slot Limitation. It's how I've always used it.

[Lord Mhoram]

The full SFX, for those unfamiliar with the source, runs thusly-

The caster takes time and draws power from the unformed plane of souls. He shapes this into specific forms and binds them to mystical places on his body (the Chakra). While these forms are bound and active they grant an ability. The caster also has a pool of energy due to his connection to this energy source that he can shut from one of these bound forms to another to enhance them.

The basic bound form is the "minimum" and the extra energy is the rest of the multipower pool.If the "caster" doesn't bind the forms in the morning he has nothing to shunt the energy towards.

The longer it goes the more I think I will likely use the ultra/multi slot split, with an extra time on the reserve.

[Hugh Neilson]

The by the book example of Takes Full Turn To Change Slots is a Pool Limitation, not a Slot Limitation. It's how I've always used it.


I would allow Extra Time on both the pool and the slots if the character required the Extra Time to activate the first slot. If the character has one slot that's in the "defualt position", then the pool does not require Extra Time to activate.

For example, Ultra Slow Boy (USB) has four slots in his MP. He takes Extra Time - 1 turn, only to activate on all slots and on the pool. He needs to focus for a turn to activate any power. He currently has that MP set to +60 STR. However, the Cowardly Sneak blasts him from behind, taking him unawares and knocking him to -2 STUN. USB has a 20 REC, so his PS 12 recovery lets him recover. However, his multipower has shut down because he was KO'd, and he now needs a turn to activate ANY slot.

Meanwhile, Really Big Gun Man (RBGM) also has four slots in his MP. He has taken Extra Time - one turn only to activate on his MP, simulating the fact he needs a turn to open up his RBG and reset it to use a different slot. It's set to Energy Blast. He takes the limit on the slots, but not the pool. The Sneaking Coward blasts him from behind, taking him unawares and knocking him to -2 STUN. RBGM has a 12 REC, so his PS 12 recovery lets him recover. His multipower has not shut down because he was KO'd, so he can fire his Energy Blast. He need only spend a turn if he wants to change the slot, not activate the MP itself, as the RBG is always set to one slot.

If you allow RBGM the full Extra Time limitation on the pool, he can simply decide never to switch the slots. He gets his EB (with option to switch) for a lower cost than his teammate who has no choice but to use an EB since he has no multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Exactamundo - the player chooses what is active that day, and the rest of the multipower is the extra power that he can shunt from spell to spell at any time he wants. He just must maintain the minimum all day.


The full SFX, for those unfamiliar with the source, runs thusly-

The caster takes time and draws power from the unformed plane of souls. He shapes this into specific forms and binds them to mystical places on his body (the Chakra). While these forms are bound and active they grant an ability. The caster also has a pool of energy due to his connection to this energy source that he can shut from one of these bound forms to another to enhance them.

The basic bound form is the "minimum" and the extra energy is the rest of the multipower pool.If the "caster" doesn't bind the forms in the morning he has nothing to shunt the energy towards.

The longer it goes the more I think I will likely use the ultra/multi slot split, with an extra time on the reserve.

I'm still having conceptual issues. The character starts with nothing when he wakes up. He has a 50 point pool and 10 slots, none of which are active. He spends some extra time (not sure how much) and activates the Pool and picks 3 slots. He can now allocate his remaining 20 points between those three sllots. The first 10 points are locked.

How much time does it take to activate those three powers? The whole pool, and all slots, should have "Extra Time - Only to Activate" at that level.

What happens next? Let's say that, later in the day, he wants to activate Slot 4. Can he do so, by allocating 10 permanent points there, or is his configuration locked on the three he selected earlier?

Assume he wants a new configuration. Can he take a brief nap, resetting to nothing active, then activate whatever new configuration he desires? How much sleep is required for the reset?

Adding to that issue, if he is knocked out, what does that do to the MP? Is it like sleeping, so he's reset at nil? Assuming KO resets the pool, can he now allocate the points, or must he wait until tomorrow? If he can reallocate by being KO'd, but not by a brief nap, how long before he asks a teammate to club him across the back of the head, and this system becomes known as "Thump the Mage System"? If the powers don't shut down when he's KO'd, that reduces the Extra Time limitation, in my opinion.

[Lord Mhoram]

How much time does it take to activate those three powers? The whole pool, and all slots, should have "Extra Time - Only to Activate" at that level.

Once the slots are assigned, they can be activated instantly.


What happens next? Let's say that, later in the day, he wants to activate Slot 4. Can he do so, by allocating 10 permanent points there, or is his configuration locked on the three he selected earlier?
The configuration is locked. He's stuck with whatever abilities he chose for that day.



Assume he wants a new configuration. Can he take a brief nap, resetting to nothing active, then activate whatever new configuration he desires? How much sleep is required for the reset?
In general no. I was seeing an hour or more to "unlock" the slots. I plan to build talents for those that are extra good with the magic to be able to unbind an ability and change it during the day; however this is not the default.


Adding to that issue, if he is knocked out, what does that do to the MP? Is it like sleeping, so he's reset at nil? Assuming KO resets the pool, can he now allocate the points, or must he wait until tomorrow? If he can reallocate by being KO'd, but not by a brief nap, how long before he asks a teammate to club him across the back of the head, and this system becomes known as "Thump the Mage System"? If the powers don't shut down when he's KO'd, that reduces the Extra Time limitation, in my opinion.

If he is out for more than an hour, then the slots would "unlock". But if it is just for a few minutes, no - once the abilites are set for the day, they are set, barring major changes. And I agree, the Extra Time lim in general is way to much for that effect. I've basically settled on -1/4 - the caster can get caught without his abilities occasionally, and if he is captured, someone can keep prodding him every 10 or so minutes and disrupt his cocentration enough that he cannot get his abilities up.

And if one of the abilities is say a firebolt - then once the slot is set he can use the firebolt anytime during the day with no problems or extra time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Once the slots are assigned, they can be activated instantly.

Hence "extra time only to activate". Once the pool is activated, it's available. The slot is also available once activated.


The configuration is locked. He's stuck with whatever abilities he chose for that day.

In general no. I was seeing an hour or more to "unlock" the slots. I plan to build talents for those that are extra good with the magic to be able to unbind an ability and change it during the day; however this is not the default.

How long does it take to "lock" the slots? Assuming it's the same hour, Extra Time to Activate (to make available, more properly) seems in the game.


If he is out for more than an hour, then the slots would "unlock". But if it is just for a few minutes, no - once the abilites are set for the day, they are set, barring major changes. And I agree, the Extra Time lim in general is way to much for that effect. I've basically settled on -1/4 - the caster can get caught without his abilities occasionally, and if he is captured, someone can keep prodding him every 10 or so minutes and disrupt his concentration enough that he cannot get his abilities up.

Here the hour can work to his advantage - Extra Time to Activate would normally be disrupted by even a brief KO. From that perspective, I'd reduce the limitation somewhat. I can see a lot of wizards with a few combat slots they activate every morning, and several miscellaneous slots they never activqate, relying on a nap, or just waiting until tomorrow. Many spells in D&D fall into the same category - why carry it when I can always obtain it tomorrow. I don't need to [read magic; turn stone to flesh; open a lock] in a hurry that often.

A lot depends on the game world. It sounds like the spellcaster needs to burn a significant period of time after sleep to have his magic available again. Assuming this is common across the game world, it's likely a fairly well known limitation. You want to attack a wizard? Nail him when he's sleeping or shortly after he awakens so he will have no access to his magics. You've taken a wizard captive? Disrupt his sleep and concentration to ensure he can't focus his magic. Any encounter that occurs during or shortly after sleep (camping in the wilderness, anyone?) leaves the spellcaster without magic. How common are those occurences in your game? I can see this being worth -1.

[Lord Mhoram]

How long does it take to "lock" the slots? Assuming it's the same hour, Extra Time to Activate (to make available, more properly) seems in the game.

I'm unsure of it completely - I was thinking 15 minutes to half an hour.

[quote]
I can see a lot of wizards with a few combat slots they activate every morning, and several miscellaneous slots they never activqate, relying on a nap, or just waiting until tomorrow.
Well the concept is that they can only do it once, so I would fiddle around with the exact SFX so that the "nap and add" or "nap and change" doesn't work. Possibly the SFX that reaching in and assign the abilities you wan that day is so draining that you cannot build up your "eldritch reserve" enough to do it again.
I wanted the people that actually buy the talent to be able to adjust during the day to be special. :)



A lot depends on the game world. It sounds like the spellcaster needs to burn a significant period of time after sleep to have his magic available again. Assuming this is common across the game world, it's likely a fairly well known limitation. You want to attack a wizard? Nail him when he's sleeping or shortly after he awakens so he will have no access to his magics. You've taken a wizard captive? Disrupt his sleep and concentration to ensure he can't focus his magic. Any encounter that occurs during or shortly after sleep (camping in the wilderness, anyone?) leaves the spellcaster without magic. How common are those occurences in your game? I can see this being worth -1.

Yeah. That is the kind of thing that would happen. The commonality I'm not sure of. This is actually a tertiary magic system, something that the players will run into when they hit an "unknown out of the way" lost worlds kind of thing. So I was nailing down the mechanics, and then looking at social impact. :) Good comments about things though. And yeah the limitation would be well known.
As I mentioned up post I was seeing 15 minutes to half an hour to "set" the abilities. But that would make dawntime surprise attacks common in dealing with enemy mages.

The hour of sleep was just something off the cuff. The feel I am after is something where a combat KO won't drop the abilities, but that the casters have to reset each day. Haven't got the exact flavor for that worked out yet. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Well the concept is that they can only do it once, so I would fiddle around with the exact SFX so that the "nap and add" or "nap and change" doesn't work. Possibly the SFX that reaching in and assign the abilities you want that day is so draining that you cannot build up your "eldritch reserve" enough to do it again.

It just becomes "wait a day and add", so the same issue will still exist. "Today, my combat will be down because I need to restore Sir Reginald from the Medusa's stare."


I wanted the people that actually buy the talent to be able to adjust during the day to be special. :)

To me, that will come down to the value of being able to adjust and the cost of the talent. If this is an alternative system, the players will have to feel that the "lock in" drawbacks are offset by other benefits (such as cost savings) or they'll pick other options. Even if it's the only magic option, I suppose they could all decide spellcasters aren't worth it.

I wonder what impact it will have on the types of spells. Long-lasting Aid's might be a good choice under this system. Things where I can allocate the remaining MP pool one ability at a time and get a longer-lasting bang for my buck.

[tesuji]

The by the book example of Takes Full Turn To Change Slots is a Pool Limitation, not a Slot Limitation. It's how I've always used it.

Can you point me to the place in the book for tat by the book referenc3e? Thanks.

I wont be surprised to see it there, its just another example of a built-in fairly common HERo system endorsed math error: the "buy cheap to save big" problem. One day they will figure that out but so far, they haven't.

For me its an obvious failure...

12d6 Eb costs 60 cp

a multipower with 12d6 EB and 12d6 Flash with "takes one turn to change slots" that doesn't apply to "when i use the powers" is MORE POWERFUl or at least AS POWERFUL and MORE VERSATILE than the single 12d6 EB.

Same multipower is clearly LESS POWERFUl or LESS VERSATILE than the multipower changed as a free phase action which costs 72 cp.


So its OBVIOUS value is somewhere between 60 and 72 cp.


if we let the lim be -X for "takes an hour to change" and we apply it to the slots. then the cost for that slow multipower will always fall within the two other obvious "less than" and "more than" cases. So it passes the "obvious valu" test.

At even -1/4 IF APPLIED TO THE POOL the price for the "turn" multipower is dropped to 58 or 60 (depending on whether it applies to the slots) which is less than the price of a 12d6 EB ( or identical to it) that can never under any circumstance change to give you the flash attack.

thus even at -1/4 it fails the "obvious value" test.

So a limit on changing should not apply to the pool, unless it is going to actually impact the use of the powers themselves.

****

One way to think of it is, this lim affects only the changing of which powers the 70 ap pool is used for, it never prevents the character from using the 60 apo pool, so the limitation does not apply to the reserve because acces to the reserve is never limited. he will alwaysd have a 60 ap power available.

****

Now, there are cases where the pool is restricted. If all my slots have an OAF and i lose the OAF then i have no pool, so then the pool gets an OAF lim. Thats a USE limit, it can deny me the reserve.

****

A gray area would be a change limit so severe AND a means of involuntary change. For example, if the "time to change slots" could not be done "out of combat in safety and left running" so that the multipower would start out in combat with needing the "change time" then again we have a case where the lim can deny you access to the pool at all when needed, so it might deserve a lim on the pool.

****

Note that no matter how severe, without an involuntary shut off, it wont matter. If the restriction was "you take 200 body damage and kill everyone in 10 miles when you change the slot" then the hero would just leave it on one chosen setting and, if his gm was silly enough, bask in his pool savings knowing he paid less for it than the normal attack.

****

But frankly, many of the cases i have seen have not been such.

and it boils down to one simple case... a guy with 12d6 EB gets NO LIM AT ALL to reduce his cost for "i do not have a flash attack EVER" and the guy with the multipower with 12d6 Eb and 12d6 flash should NOT get that combo cheaper because "i can have a flash attack if i take a turn to dial it up, but usually i just have a 12d6 EB."

****

Oh and BTW can i apply a pool lim and manage to construct a slow mp that is within the range of the tests? Sure. Add more slots. At 60 ap with three slots and a -1/4 change lim on the pool it happens to fall over the "single power" cost. But to me the fact that i can build the simplest case to fail and more complicated cases to succeedd indicates the success is coincidental, not a sign of "accurate pricing". I prefer to go with a calculation which will always meet the test... which limiting the slots seems to be able to do 100% of the time.

So, my general rule is : Just say NO to "buy little to save big", Apply "change limits" to the slots not the reserve.

ymmv

[Lord Mhoram]

I wonder what impact it will have on the types of spells. Long-lasting Aid's might be a good choice under this system. Things where I can allocate the remaining MP pool one ability at a time and get a longer-lasting bang for my buck.

Yeah. I was going to building a bunch of work all the time spells. Aiming (OCV), armor, blur effect (DCV), Enhanced charactersitics, damage shield, enhanced combat damage. Then a number of more "normal" spell effects - healings, magical attacks, and such. :)

Enhance and Aid, then switch back to the basic on it. Good one, takes advantage of the special effects of the system. I like it. :)

[Lord Mhoram]

To me, that will come down to the value of being able to adjust and the cost of the talent. If this is an alternative system, the players will have to feel that the "lock in" drawbacks are offset by other benefits (such as cost savings) or they'll pick other options. Even if it's the only magic option, I suppose they could all decide spellcasters aren't worth it.

Yeah. One of the things I'm doing in the back of my head is the balance between my alternate magic systems and my primary one. I'm trying to make the secondary ones attractive in one way or another, and a character with that magic can keep up with other types of characters, but trying to leave the flavor of the main magic system as worthwhile.

In this case - my normal magic system uses a mana system (End reserve) that is limites (about 60-120 or so end, most spells cost between 3 and 6). Things can be done to get more mana during the day, but normally it recovers when sleeping. The alternate system can get used much more - but it is limited in versitiliy and costs more. So there are trade offs. :)

[Rapier]

I've frequently done a similar thing.

Bowey McArrow has an MP with 40 odd arrows, but he only carries around a dozen or two. The MP is built so that each slot has NO charges lim on it. Then the MP itself has a charges lim on it to represent the total number of arrows that Bowey carries around with him.

So then we limit the MP with "charges for MP must be pre-determined." It's usually not much of a limitation, and depending on how close homebase is, it lands somewhere between -1/4 and -1/2.

So he has X number of slots, but before he leaves his base he has to figure out how many and what type of arrows he's taking with him. If he takes 5 Taser Arrows and runs up against Zombies (who don't take STUN) he's SOL. It really stresses forethought and pre-planning and good research (which sometimes gets left behind by rush-into-the-cannonade type players).

I've done similar things with ammo and spell components, which sounds pretty darned close to what you are looking for. Since these can change every day (I'm assuming dawn) I'd give it a -1/4.

[PhilFleischmann]

Tesuji has it right. At least for most of what you want to do. There was a long discussion a while ago about "Slot Switching Limitations" in which I laid out the step-by-step logic behind having all slot switching lims apply only to the slots themselves, and at a reduced value from the normal limitation. For my games I use half of the normal limitation value. For example, Extra Time: 1 Hour would normally be a -3 Lim - it means it takes an hour to activate the power every time. But if the power can be activated instantly, but it takes an hour to switch your MP points to that slot, the limitation is only -1.5. The "half" rule is just my simple rule of thumb, adjust to taste.

In this particular case, the limitation is Charges: Slots can only be switched 1 time per day. If the slots could be only *used* once per day, it would be a -2 Limitation. So this lim would be -1, and would be applied to the *slots only*.

Question: *Must* the player choose *exactly* three slots each time? Can he chose fewer? Assuming no, the base cost of the slots should be:

30 - points maximum in any one slot, 10 points are "fixed", so each slot would be 10/10 + 20/5 = 1 + 4 = 5 points.

Then the 1 change/day limit would apply: 5/(1+1) = 2.5 (I like to keep the fractions in this case, rather than rounding them down, otherwise the player is getting several points for free, like one of those "fractional pennies" bank scams.)

So, so far your MP looks like this:

50 Reserve 50 points
2.5 Slot 1 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day
2.5 Slot 2 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day
2.5 Slot 3 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day
etc., for however many slots you have.

The only other thing I haven't included is the bit about how all your powers go away if you take an hour long nap before the day is over. Perhaps this is just a custom limitation (which would apply to the Reserve as well as the Slots), probably no more than a -1/4 "Powers go away if you sleep for more than an hour". And due to the "change once a day limitation" if that hour nap comes before the end of the day, you won't be able to re-select your powers.

I'm going to try to track down that "Slot-Switching Limitations" thread.

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm going to try to track down that "Slot-Switching Limitations" thread.

Cool.

Thanks for the input.

I've decided that the only can switch slots once per day thing as a lim on the slots, but the "extra time" to set them up on the reserve - because if the character doesn't have the time to activate, he doesn't get anything (not unlike extra time).

And yeah the character can choose to have 1 or 5 slots each day, depending on taste. If he has more, he gets more vesitility, if he chooses fewer he gets more power. :)

And I'm doing away with the whole sleep thing. A character's body can only stand the strain of controlling and shaping the magic (to set the slots) once a day. That will be the SFX. The slots are mainteed by background concious thought of the caster - but they take 2 or 3 hours to fade - so being knocekd out, or taking a power nap won't undo the effect.


I've finally got the exact special effect for the magic system-
Basically the "spells" are constructs of power and shaped Ether (from the Etherial plane) that the caster shapes and forms and wears - the abilities/spells look like things the character is wearing, but made out of semisolid ectoplasm. The effects of any particular slot are tied to what the effect looks like*, and to which of the 7 chakras they are associated with (that also defines thier color).

For example a large cloak that looks like flame generates a damage shield, a third eye in teh middle of the forehead gives perception and true sight, there might be a special weapon formed from the stuff.

[Sean Waters]

Limitations on pool cost are perfectly book-legal, even if that limtiation is 'extra time to change slots'.

However, then you get this:

40 60 point MP -1/2 (extra time to change slots)
4 12d6 EB
4 12d6 Flash

Total cost 48 (52 if you don't allowthe limtiations on the slots too)

Cost for any one power, 60 points.

So, assuming that the limtiation is only on changing slots, but once a slot is 'loaded' you can use it as much as you like without limitation, this would give you a substantial point AND utility advantage over a 'straight' power.

So, book-legal, but not in my games sunshine.

I think a similar cost/benefit analysis should be conducted for any and all limtiations applied to multipower pools. The question is this: does the cost of the power adequately reflect the utility compared to the cost of a single slot?

Generally if you cannot apply a limtiation to an individual slot if it was bought on its own I won't allow it to be applied to the pool of a multipower.

If it IS, however a limtiation on how you can use the slots so I would allow a limitation on slot cost.

[Lord Mhoram]

So, book-legal, but not in my games sunshine.

Yeah. It was exactly this thinking that led me to the structure I choose - the "extra time" thing would affect a similar power that wasn't a multipower the same way.

My rule of thumb on things like that - If the lim would affect a normal power, then the lim can go on the pool reserve. Otherwise it hits the slot. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Lockout is -1/2. Add another -1/2 for all day and another -1/2 for Must Pick At Start Of Day and call it -1 1/2.

Play test it, tweak as necessary.

[Lord Mhoram]

Play test it, tweak as necessary.

:)

I'm one of those types that likes to have the mechanics fit exactly the SFX down to all the tiniest details before things get started. :) The main reason I posted - to get ideas I didn't see due to tunnel vision. :)

[PhilFleischmann]

Limitations on pool cost are perfectly book-legal, even if that limtiation is 'extra time to change slots'.
Book-legal, and also probably book-illegal at the same time. I'm sure it says in there somewhere that power constucts must be costed fairly. And as you pointed out, applying slot limitations to the reserve, results in an unfair cost.

So book-legal, but clearly wrong! Remember folks: This isn't the Bible. It isn't handed down by God. It isn't infallible.

Meanwhile, I'm having trouble finding that old thread I mentioned earlier. I can't think of what other terms to search on. Is there a search-fu master that can help?

One way to think of it is that the Reserve is the "raw power" of the MP, and the slot costs just represent the flexibility of it. Since a slot-switching limitation only effects the flexibility, not the raw power, it should only be placed on the slot costs.

It also has the added advantage of allowing you to place different limitations on each slot, vis:

60 Reserve of magic spells
12m - Everyday-use spell, no limitations on switching to it
8m - Sometime-use spell, -1/2* limitation on switching to it
6m - Difficult spell, -1** limitation on switching to it
4m - Last Resort spell, -2*** limitation on switching to it

*Like OAF needed to switch to this slot, (would be -1 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).
**Like Extra Time: 5 Minutes to switch to this one (would be -2 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).
***Like Major Side Effect, Always Occurs, plus Only One switch per day to this slot (would be -4 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).

[Rapier]

I would be most tempted to say that a Limitation that affects how often/how you change slots affects the Reserve only.

A MP is a group of powers that are closely related. Changing between those powers is not a modifier on the power, its a modifier on the Reserve. Does it have more or an impact than is appropriate?

Well, now. That's a whole 'nother kettel of fish. What's good for the goose is cheese for the sammich...or some such thing.

As a GM, I believe that the cost limitation (@ -1/4) is not overpowering and effectively reflects the amount of difficulty the limitation will cause the charcter.

We all play in different games. All we can do is say how we would handle some ruling in our games within X circumstances and throw it against the wall. Maybe it sticks in your house and not in your neighbours. That's what Hero is all about.

[Killer Shrike]

:)

I'm one of those types that likes to have the mechanics fit exactly the SFX down to all the tiniest details before things get started. :) The main reason I posted - to get ideas I didn't see due to tunnel vision. :)

If that works for you, I guess. But there is always the risk of being too hands off and theoretical. Many times just stating something out and trying it will very quickly reveal the appropriate course of action.

[Lord Mhoram]

If that works for you, I guess. But there is always the risk of being too hands off and theoretical. Many times just stating something out and trying it will very quickly reveal the appropriate course of action.

Yeah.
I usually do some playtesting before things get going, but I have a certain level of "done" that I want to hit before I start doing that. I'm pretty persnickity about making things just so. :o

I playtest the stuff for a bit with the wife before I use it in group. :)

And as the game hasn't started quite yet (a couple of weeks) and they won't run into this magic system for a while (it belongs to a very isolated group of people) I have time.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would be most tempted to say that a Limitation that affects how often/how you change slots affects the Reserve only.

A MP is a group of powers that are closely related. Changing between those powers is not a modifier on the power, its a modifier on the Reserve. Does it have more or an impact than is appropriate?

Well, now. That's a whole 'nother kettel of fish. What's good for the goose is cheese for the sammich...or some such thing.

As a GM, I believe that the cost limitation (@ -1/4) is not overpowering and effectively reflects the amount of difficulty the limitation will cause the charcter.

Given this, why should anyone in your game ever purchase a power which is not in a Multipower? let's say Charlie and Ed each want a +15/+15 0 END Force Field. Charlie buys a 45 point force field.

Ed buys a Multipower with the Force Field and, let's say, 1d6 Aid, +10 to the limit any one characteristic (+1/4), Fades per week (+1 3/4). Then he Limits the pool with "Can only change out of combat (-1/4). He pays 36 for the pool and 4 for each slot, for a total of 44. He then proceeds, out of combat, to raise every characteristic of every PC by 16 points (call that +10 STR, +5 DEX, +8 CON, +8 BOD, +15 INT, +8 EGO, +15 PRE, +30 COM, +8 PD, +8 ED, +8 REC, +1 SPD, +15 STUN and +30 END).


So Ed pays 1 point less, and gets the force field, which he will always shift the pool to unless he's actively using his Aid, and buffs the entire PC group's stats, for 1 point less cost. Now, you can certainly say you would never allow that Aid power, but even if the second power is completely useless, Ed has saved 1 point over Charlie's build, and it's pretty tough to design an alternative power that will NEVER be useful.

[Rapier]

Then he Limits the pool with "Can only change out of combat (-1/4).

Out of combat applies to at least about, on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day. Because a limitation that does not limit is not worth any points.

[tesuji]

Out of combat applies to at least about, on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day.

Which, in my games, is meaningless, for setting lim values.

It doesn't matter how many hours per day you cannot use a power, for setting limited power scale but it really matters "how often can you not use the power when you need it?".

So for instance a limitation which restricted the power to only work against "supers" would not be based off the "1 guy in a million is a super" but rather on "most of the adversaries he will need the power againstwill be supers." So the value of the lim would not be "well the power is reduced to one millionth of its effectiveness so at lwast -2" but more like "-1/4 because most will be supers and the ones that aren't wont be very serious threats"

Similarly, on a Mp the only change out of combat" value would not be based on "loss of most of effectiveness" based on the clock but on how often he would NEED to change the pool in combat. if onbe slot was his primary defense, something he will always want in combat, the value would be -0. on the other hand, if it did include a variety of powers none of which was a "must have" in combat, i can see the avlue being placed at the established -1/2,(see VPP) but applied to slots, not to the pool.


imo and fmg.

[Hugh Neilson]

Out of combat applies to at least about, on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day. Because a limitation that does not limit is not worth any points.

"Requires 1 turn to change", then. It can be pretty much any limitation if I'm never going to change the slots anyway, can't it? And the whole point is that, if it's less expensive for me to have my power in a Multi with a limit on when the slots can change than to buy the power on its own, why would I not throw it in a Multi with a power I have no intention of using.

It could just as easily be a 65 point MP with a 13d6 EB and a 13d6 Flash. 52 + 6 + 6 = 64, less than 65, so I buy the MP and NEVER use the Flash. Give me more than -1/4 and I shave a lot of points. Even at -1/4, I have a shot at getting access to the second power for a cost no greater than the character that has no other slot to potentially access. Objectively, the potential to access a second ability should be worth more than having no potential to access that second ability.

[PhilFleischmann]

I found it!

My post within the thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=191113&postcount=21)

The Whole Thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191113#post191113) (Only two pages, I remembered it being longer than that. I guess it just felt that way.)