Character Creation Handbook

[Chris Henry]

As this is going to be a book of previously released material, and is probably the only thing on schedule without an official blurb, I'm hoping it's okay to ask this. What is planned to be included? I'm guessing the bulk of 5ER's character creation section, but anything else?

[Steve Long]

Well, like the HSCH, we're going to take a chunk of 5ER -- in this case Chapter One, all the character creation stuff -- add to it anything pertinent from the FAQ, and also add to it anything pertinent from other existing books, and voila! one easy-to-use reference will result. ;)

[DreadDomain]

Well, like the HSCH, we're going to take a chunk of 5ER -- in this case Chapter One, all the character creation stuff -- add to it anything pertinent from the FAQ, and also add to it anything pertinent from other existing books, and voila! one easy-to-use reference will result. ;)


And what would be pertinent exactly? New Talents from genre books (or a selection of). Super-skills? Package deals?

[Steve Long]

"Pertinent" will be decided on a case-by-case basis. We certainly can't reprint the character creation sections of every single book; the resulting CCH would be way too big. So I'll have to cherry-pick, choosing the materials that seem most appropriate for a general reference. There'll be a WDYWTS thread when the time comes, so people can talk about what they'd like to see in the book.

[gojira]

Just thinking out loud, there were several suggestions in the Champions Revised thread that pertained to character creation (I'm thinking mainly of Derek's request for more powers and skills).

Maybe some additional material that isn't feasible to add to an existing book, but would be worthwhile, could be put in the character creation handbook?

This could be a neat way to "update" existing genre books without going through the hasle of actually revising six or so different books.

[Steve]

I know this is very early to make suggestions, but one thing I want to suggest for it would be to take the Instant Superhuman Generator section from Champions and add lower-scaled versions of them for Heroic campaigns for the section on characteristic packages (a Rugged Heroic as well as Rugged Superheroic). That seems like it would be a big help for newbies to the game who can get intimidated by the numbers.

[Hellion]

I think that a book that goes into character development more than where and how to spend your points would be a resource that newbies and a lot of experienced gamers could enjoy. If you do not have a character concept the points and how they are spent are meaningless. Something to think about anyway.

[gojira]

Welcome Hellion! Or did you get the welcome mat already? ;)

Good idea, I like it. I was focusing on the mechanical bits because that's where people always seem to have issues. HERO is pretty intensive when building characters.

OTOH, a strong character concept does help. I'm not sure how one teaches that however. Some people get it, and some don't.

It seems to me some people get overwhelmed by the selection of Powers and try to fit a character into a certain Power which looks interesting, rather than fitting the Powers to an interesting character. And I'm not sure there's much that can be done to dissuade them from that.

[Spence]

I had mentioned an idea in the other thread about giving some kind of guide not to just how to make a character in hero, but how to plan to make a character in hero. Most of the people I know who had problems trying to learn how to to make characters in hero don't actually have problems with the math as much as not understanding that the powers are not actual "powers" as much as effects used to build powers. The whole way of making a viable PC in hero is completely different from the class/level systems most gamers are familiar with. A practical example of character construction that includes the thought processes would be worth it weight in gold.

Start with a plain language description of the character and his abilities, then describe the process of making him including the math. If the super example was the Torch. Describe each power with 2-3 different builds for each and then "pick" the best one. In the end you have a complete PC with all the why's and how's spelled out. Being a greedy person, I think 3 Supers, 3 Fantasy, 1 Star Hero, 1 Dark Champs, 2 Pulp Hero and 1 Teen Hero examples would be a good wide selection to include.

[buzz]

Just to be clear, you're saying that this book is going to be basically the first 347 pages of 5ER, plus bits from other books?

Man, this plus the HSCH, HSEG, plus some eventual "Environment Handbook," and maybe "The Ultimate GM," and you've basically got a multi-volume set of core rules... obviating the need to own 5ER. :)

Honestly, I'd think a "Character Creation Companion" that collects everything but what's in 5ER would make more sense. I mean, the core audience already owns 90% of this book, don't they?

[Lord Mhoram]

Honestly, I'd think a "Character Creation Companion" that collects everything but what's in 5ER would make more sense. I mean, the core audience already owns 90% of this book, don't they?

Not all of them. One of our new players has sidekick (that I gave him - I keep a couple of copies around for just that reason), and he understood the whole combat side of the game easy. A book that would be nothing but character creation stuff was something he was interested it (when I read the list of upcoming books to the group).

I wouldn't mind it as a resource. Having all that stuff in one book makes it easier for reference when building characters (depending of course, on what extra stuff is put in). I'm actually really stoked for this one.

Yeah, you could just do a 2 book version of the rules, the CC handbook and the combat handbook, rather than take 5ER around. :)

[buzz]

I wouldn't mind it as a resource. Having all that stuff in one book makes it easier for reference when building characters (depending of course, on what extra stuff is put in). I'm actually really stoked for this one.
It just seems odd to me to reproduce half of 5ER. The combat rules I can understand, as that's only 60 pages or so, and the compiled content in HSCH doubles that.

But the entire chargen and power rules? To reproduce the feat of HSCH, it'd be a 700 page book. If it's significantly less than that, I'm not sure what the advantage to it would be over just plain ol' 5ER.

I don't mean to be a naysayer, as I'll probably buy this like I buy everything HERO. :) I just find this product kind of puzzling.

[ghost-angel]

I have a feeling that by Chapter 1 Steve means the parts of what to do - not the actual Skills, Powers, Perks and Talents themselves. Just the opening portions of those sections. Steve would have to verify that of course.

[buzz]

I have a feeling that by Chapter 1 Steve means the parts of what to do - not the actual Skills, Powers, Perks and Talents themselves. Just the opening portions of those sections.
That's what I thought as well, but reading the thread gave me doubts.

[Lord Mhoram]

I have a feeling that by Chapter 1 Steve means the parts of what to do - not the actual Skills, Powers, Perks and Talents themselves. Just the opening portions of those sections. Steve would have to verify that of course.

Well if that is the case, then I am not stoked at all.

I was hoping for a book that let me build a character from the book. Strip out all the examples, and just have the rules, and add in the approriate stuff from the other books, and you could get that to a reasonable size. But yeah, that would be most of the use of 5ER.

We'll see.

But if it ends up that the Combat Handbook and the Character Creation Handbook bascially can replace 5ER I don't mind. :)

[buzz]

What character options from other books would be fair game for this book, anyway? It'd ideally be non-genre stuff, right?

[ghost-angel]

Well if that is the case, then I am not stoked at all.

I was hoping for a book that let me build a character from the book. Strip out all the examples, and just have the rules, and add in the approriate stuff from the other books, and you could get that to a reasonable size. But yeah, that would be most of the use of 5ER.

Sidekick?

[ghost-angel]

What character options from other books would be fair game for this book, anyway? It'd ideally be non-genre stuff, right?

Conojecture on my part....

But I would imagine pertinent info from the Ultimate Series regarding character personalities and archetypes.

Even the Genre book stuff would be good to see all side by side.

[Lord Mhoram]

Sidekick?

Naw - leave in all the powers with all the options. Just don't give examples. Pare the text down to the minimum neccessary - so if you are familiar with the rules, you have a reference book to build a character, but it isn't something you could learn on. You'd need Sidekick or 5er for that.

[Spence]

I was hoping for a section that would guide newcomers to through the whole "power from effect" concept. The biggest difficulty for a new to hero gamer is that hero has nothing even close to classes or types that have pre-structured abilities.

If you pick up hero by yourself many people don't have a reference to make the creative leap. Even with a guide it can be difficult for a person used to the pre-made cookie cutter games to mentally realize the concept of the tool kit. Even on these boards we routinely read posts by people who are still looking at the "powers" as complete powers, rather than game mechanics used to "build" many different powers.

I was thinking a chapter that illustrated that concept would be worth its weight in gold. Purposely using a power to build a power that is completely different than the name of the power would indicate as examples. In a high end martial arts campaign a friend of mine used force field to model his PC's ability to parry/dodge thrown weapons like shuriken and kunai. To use it was just hero as narmal, but to one of the new players it was a major revelation. It transformed his entire understanding of the game, which suddenly transformed from super-complicated to easy.

This isn't to critical if the new person has someone already familiar with hero to talk with. But it is a major show stopper for someone alone. The class/level/pre-made stuff games don't have this problem. A book that could explain this, or even a chapter added to some of the existing books could be the thing that changes Hero from a game primarily played by experienced gamers to a more entry level game.

Just a thought.

:D

[ghost-angel]

I was hoping for a section that would guide newcomers to through the whole "power from effect" concept.

That's an awesome idea. And I can't rep you for it either. Something about spreading it around.

[Steve Long]

No, we mean the entire contents of Chapter 1, expanded as appropriate with material from the Rules FAQ, other books, etc.

[Goradin]

I don't the idea unless its genre based per genre. Maybe you could use PDFs per genre.

[Lord Mhoram]

No, we mean the entire contents of Chapter 1, expanded as appropriate with material from the Rules FAQ, other books, etc.

Sweet!

[buzz]

No, we mean the entire contents of Chapter 1, expanded as appropriate with material from the Rules FAQ, other books, etc.
Is there a target page count at this point? I mean, I can see this easily getting to FH or PH size and longer!

[Steve Long]

I was hoping for a section that would guide newcomers to through the whole "power from effect" concept.

That's largely what 5ER 96-98 is. I could ladle on more examples, but I don't necessarily have a lot more to say on the core subject matter -- I think those pages summarize the process pretty well.

[Steve Long]

Re: page count -- no idea. As I stated somewhere else along the line, I don't intend to drag in the contents of the "Character Creation" section of every book we've ever done, just appropriate highlights. At a guess it'll be 10-20% larger than Chapter 1 of 5ER, but it really depends on what (if anything) I want and have time to add. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I think I'll be giving this one a bye as well. Adding 10 - 20% to existing material, mostly from other existing material, seems more like "5ER Revised" than a new book.

[archermoo]

Re: page count -- no idea. As I stated somewhere else along the line, I don't intend to drag in the contents of the "Character Creation" section of every book we've ever done, just appropriate highlights. At a guess it'll be 10-20% larger than Chapter 1 of 5ER, but it really depends on what (if anything) I want and have time to add. ;)

So in the 400 page range? Much larger than I had been assuming it would be. Which is cool. It'll give me the opportunity to have this info in my prefered softcover format. :)

[Lord Mhoram]

So in the 400 page range? Much larger than I had been assuming it would be. Which is cool. It'll give me the opportunity to have this info in my prefered softcover format. :)

I second that sentiment.

[ChaosDrgn]

Honestly, after talking to a few other hero fans about this, I'll skip it.

Seems to me just a reprint book like Equipment and Combat. The nice thing that Hero was supposed to be was that it was all in one book, the rule book. You didn't need filler, extras or anything. This seem to hark back to D&D's 3 book rules or worse yet, a ploy to get fanboy money, yeah those who feel they have to have a complete set of Hero books.

I'd rather see hero concentrate on the books in the 2006 list that haven't come out, or even updating the website.

[Pyre-Archer]

Apologies if I'm out of line, but I might go for it if it was a bit smaller than the other books, say about the size of the 2nd edition BESM core book. Say about 8" by 6", IIRC.

Just a thought, that's all.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'd rather see hero concentrate on the books in the 2006 list that haven't come out, or even updating the website.Respectfully, you're missing the point. :)

The point is not to make everyone buy everything again. The point is also not to take up Steve's time with retread books instead of new books. The point is to... Consolidate the information for the benefit of folks who find such consolidations useful and are therefore willing to pay for them, and
Have a book in the schedule that doesn't really require a lot of Steve's time. (I would assume the "compilation" books are largely on Andy's plate.)
If the big GenCon release takes Steve 3 months to write, you don't want 3 months to go by without a book coming out. These "compilation" books give Hero something they can slot in the schedule while Steve is heads-down in Post-Apocalyptic Hero or Urban Fantasy Hero.

And while you (and others in this thread) have indicated that the "compilation" books aren't something you want to buy, I believe (though I have no specifics) that the past "compilation" books have been reasonably good sellers. So someone clearly does want them and finds them useful. :)

[ChaosDrgn]

No, I didn't miss the point, I think you did though. Steve Long isn't suposed to be the only writer there. The main idea behind hero is that one book was supposed to be all you needed to get your rules. There shouldn't have to be a "compilation" book of any kind.

As for "3 months with no book" there are several that I haven't seen that were "promised" last year and a few I was personally looking forward to being dropped altogether, so 3 months isn't that big of a deal. If it's a book that's new and I find interesting it's not that big of a wait, if it's not a book I'm interested in there's no wait at all.

I'm not going to apologize for my opinion. This book honestly seems like a waste of time and resources. Rather it's just "the first chapter with add-ons" or not, it's time and attention away from another NEW book that could be coming out.

[Derek Hiemforth]

No, I didn't miss the point, I think you did though. Steve Long isn't suposed to be the only writer there. The main idea behind hero is that one book was supposed to be all you needed to get your rules. There shouldn't have to be a "compilation" book of any kind.No, you're still missing the point. There doesn't have to be a compilation book. The compilation books are conveniences, not necessities.

As for "3 months with no book" there are several that I haven't seen that were "promised" last year and a few I was personally looking forward to being dropped altogether, so 3 months isn't that big of a deal. If it's a book that's new and I find interesting it's not that big of a wait, if it's not a book I'm interested in there's no wait at all.I don't mean that you're not willing to let 3 months go by without a book. I mean that it's not economically desirable for the company to let 3 months go by without a book. They need to keep making books in order to keep selling books. :)

This book honestly seems like a waste of time and resources. Rather it's just "the first chapter with add-ons" or not, it's time and attention away from another NEW book that could be coming out.No it isn't. Steve can only write one book at a time. Same with Darren. Hiring freelancers costs money (so it can't be done endlessly) and still takes Steve time (since their work requires more editing to get into shape than his own does). Whether he's writing or editing, new books take up Steve's time. Compilation books don't (or don't much).

Also, just because you don't personally find them useful doesn't mean they're bad for the company to publish. As I noted, many people apparently do find them useful. The company isn't wrong just because they're not doing what you would prefer. :)

[ChaosDrgn]

Whatever, like it or not I stated my opinion and I'm sticking with it. Just because something is convient doesn't mean it's right. A reprint book will hurt in the long run because your going to have people pass on it, where a new book (with a decent cover) will have more people buying it. Maybe your a little too close to it and don't see it from where I'm standing. I've seen this type of trend before in companies and it doesn't come out good in the long run. Believe me if you want, don't if you don't. Perhaps the people who feel the same way I do have already left. If Hero doesn't take a step back and really look at what it's doing there will be problems later on.

But what do I know, I'm just a fan of the past 20 odd years with a brain.

[Hugh Neilson]

Whether I buy it or not, if it sells it is a success, and if not it is a failure. DoJ has the $$ at stake, so they have to make the decision.

Their decision to publish this book certainly won't change the likelihood I will buy the next book.

[Derek Hiemforth]

But what do I know, I'm just a fan of the past 20 odd years with a brain.Implying, of course, that I'm not. ;)

I'll just say that, while I understand -- and share! -- your desire for new books over compilations, I still think you're either missing or ignoring the reality of the situation. It's not a choice between, say, 9 new books and 1 compilation vs. 10 new books. It's a choice between 9 new books and 1 compilation vs. 9 new books and that's all. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to, but that's the fact.

I'll let it drop there. :)

[ghost-angel]

Whatever, like it or not I stated my opinion and I'm sticking with it. Just because something is convient doesn't mean it's right. A reprint book will hurt in the long run because your going to have people pass on it, where a new book (with a decent cover) will have more people buying it. Maybe your a little too close to it and don't see it from where I'm standing. I've seen this type of trend before in companies and it doesn't come out good in the long run. Believe me if you want, don't if you don't. Perhaps the people who feel the same way I do have already left. If Hero doesn't take a step back and really look at what it's doing there will be problems later on.

But what do I know, I'm just a fan of the past 20 odd years with a brain.

taking a look at the compilation books over the years .....

I count 4.

July 2005: Equipment Guide
August 2005: Combat Handbook
July 2006: Evil Unleashed & You Gotta Have Character

The last (YGHC) was a reprint from Digital Hero articles, which most book buyers don't read. So you know, I'll take that off the reprint list. That makes 3.

3 books out of 65 titles.

yeah... dangerous trend there.

Now look at the timing: Right before GenCon which always has a major release, and have always been big thick books. So it seems to me they put a "reprint" book into the slot while Steve is making sure the GenCon release is done and done right, taking the time he needs.

Seem like a fair trade to me. And quite frankly I've found those reprint books (especially the Combat Handbook) to be useful.

as for your last line there: I consider that a bit beligerant, don't you think?

[Hugh Neilson]

Either the reprint books sell, in which case they are a good idea for Hero, or they do not sell, in which case they are not a good idea for Hero. Whether I personally like them, or even buy them, is irrelevant.

Star Hero books didn't sell. Hero stopped writing Star Hero products.

Pulp Hero books didn't sell. Hero stopped writing Pulp Hero products.

Scenario books didn't sell. Hero stopped writing Scenario books.

If compilation reprint books sell, Hero will print them. If not, they will stop. That's the simple business reality. With three published, and a fourth on the way, I conclude that the first three sold. If they didn't, Hero wouldn't put resources into a fourth.

[archermoo]

Whatever, like it or not I stated my opinion and I'm sticking with it. Just because something is convient doesn't mean it's right. A reprint book will hurt in the long run because your going to have people pass on it, where a new book (with a decent cover) will have more people buying it. Maybe your a little too close to it and don't see it from where I'm standing. I've seen this type of trend before in companies and it doesn't come out good in the long run. Believe me if you want, don't if you don't. Perhaps the people who feel the same way I do have already left. If Hero doesn't take a step back and really look at what it's doing there will be problems later on.

But what do I know, I'm just a fan of the past 20 odd years with a brain.

I have no problem with you having your opinion, and even stating it. Heck, I even agree with some of it. I like getting new books. However I also have found both the Equipment Guide and Combat Handbook to be very useful books. And my understanding is that they sold well. If they hadn't sold well, Hero wouldn't be putting out any more of them. But since they did sell well, and since they require much less work than a new book, that means that they can fit a compilation book into the schedule when they couldn't fit another book in.

If it is a choice between 9 new books and a compilation book, and just 9 new books, it is a pretty easy choice. Adding the compilation gives Hero another money maker, and it keeps the people that like that sort of book happy, and doesn't replace a wholly new book in the schedule. Everyone wins.

[RPMiller]

Scenario books didn't sell. Hero stopped writing Scenario books.

Scenario books?!? Which ones? I admit to not checking for new books regularly, but what scenario books came out that I missed? Are we talking pre-5th or were there some released recently that I missed?

[Steve Long]

I believe the scenario books Archermoo is referring to are (or include):

Champions Battlegrounds
Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds
Shades Of Black
Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth

...and arguably Thrilling Places, since each location is pretty much, at a bare minimum, one good solid Pulp adventure. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Star Hero books didn't sell. Hero stopped writing Star Hero products.Actually we're getting about one of these a year, by the current schedule. And considering that they don't sell really well, that makes me a really happy camper. :D

[archermoo]

I believe the scenario books Archermoo is referring to are (or include):

Champions Battlegrounds
Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds
Shades Of Black
Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth

...and arguably Thrilling Places, since each location is pretty much, at a bare minimum, one good solid Pulp adventure. ;)

Just as a note, it was Hugh that mentioned the scenario books, not me. :)

I was just talking about how you guys making more compilation books made sense to me, since it was my understanding that the previous ones sold rather well. And it gives you a book that is even easier (specifically from your point of view) to put out than even something written by someone else.

[BobGreenwade]

Just as a note, it was Hugh that mentioned the scenario books, not me. :)Nice to know I'm not the only intelligent person who makes that mistake. ;)

[RPMiller]

I believe the scenario books Archermoo is referring to are (or include):

Champions Battlegrounds
Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds
Shades Of Black
Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth

...and arguably Thrilling Places, since each location is pretty much, at a bare minimum, one good solid Pulp adventure. ;)
Are those Setting books, Adventure books, or Scenario books?

Setting being just a resource for making your own adventures.
Adventure being an actual adventure with all the NPCs and maps.
Scenario being somewhere between those two.

The reason I ask is that as a GM I find Adventure, Scenario, and Setting books (in that order) very useful for me personally as it allows me to provide my players with hours of enjoyment without me spending hours of preparation and then I can easily use the adventure to jump off into other ideas. They are also wonderful resources to use for GM burnout repair to get the creative juices flowing again.

I realize that they have a limited market share being just for GMs, but as the early AD&D modules showed, a well written adventure can turn almost anyone into a decent GM, and are great for creating new GMs out of people that may have felt they couldn't do it. Anyway, enough about that, just curious about the types of books they are. If they are adventures, consider them purchased immediately if not, I'll have to look at them more closely.

[mattingly]

Given those criteria, I'd say that Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth and Shades Of Black are Adventures, and the Battlegrounds are Scenarios. Villainy Amok would probably also be a Scenario book, too.

[archermoo]

Are those Setting books, Adventure books, or Scenario books?

Setting being just a resource for making your own adventures.
Adventure being an actual adventure with all the NPCs and maps.
Scenario being somewhere between those two.

The reason I ask is that as a GM I find Adventure, Scenario, and Setting books (in that order) very useful for me personally as it allows me to provide my players with hours of enjoyment without me spending hours of preparation and then I can easily use the adventure to jump off into other ideas. They are also wonderful resources to use for GM burnout repair to get the creative juices flowing again.

I realize that they have a limited market share being just for GMs, but as the early AD&D modules showed, a well written adventure can turn almost anyone into a decent GM, and are great for creating new GMs out of people that may have felt they couldn't do it. Anyway, enough about that, just curious about the types of books they are. If they are adventures, consider them purchased immediately if not, I'll have to look at them more closely.

From the Online Store:

Champions Battlegrounds is a collection of five adventures for Champions, each focusing on a particular location that you can use repeatedly in your campaign.

Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth
From within the heart of the insidious organization VIPER, a new evil has arisen... one that wishes to conquer both VIPER and Earth! Can your heroes survive the challenges to come and save humanity from the clutches of King Cobra and his minions of COIL?

Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds is a collection of locations and adventures for Fantasy Hero, each focusing on a place you can use repeatedly in your campaign.

This Hero Plus adventure for Champions pits the characters against the evil Black Paladin, who's begun a dark crusade of murder and havoc with a sinister purpose in mind. The adventure features three new villains and numerous maps (including a fully mapped-out haunted mansion!).

All of them are either adventures or collections of adventures.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Are those Setting books, Adventure books, or Scenario books?

Setting being just a resource for making your own adventures.
Adventure being an actual adventure with all the NPCs and maps.
Scenario being somewhere between those two.Based on those definitions, they're Scenario books. They're actual adventures (groups of adventures) with maps and some NPCs, but other NPCs are found in other books. For example, Champions Battlegrounds includes several adventures, each with detailed maps and supporting NPCs, but the main bad guys are from Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, and aren't re-printed in Champions Battlegrounds.

[RPMiller]

Thanks Derek. That is what I'm most curious about. I consider an Adventure to not require any more effort than just reading through it to get prepared.

If I have to make up maps, traps, and/or npcs then it is a scenario or setting. The difference being a setting requires even more work than the scenario.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Thanks Derek. That is what I'm most curious about. I consider an Adventure to not require any more effort than just reading through it to get prepared.

If I have to make up maps, traps, and/or npcs then it is a scenario or setting. The difference being a setting requires even more work than the scenario.Well, then by this definition, they'd be adventures. :) Because you don't have to make up any of the stuff... it just isn't all necessarily in the same book.

[Hugh Neilson]

The Battlegrounds books and STAST were the ones I recalled, but Shades of Black fits as well.

[Spence]

I have all of them and believe they are fantastic Scenarios. I call it that because if you look at Champions Battlegrounds all of the Adventures are linked. Now you can ignore the plot line and use each piece for anything you want, but out of the box it is one BIG series of scenarios. Plus many of the NPC's are referenced from other books. Not a problem for me I have most everything anyway, but if I was a beginning GM, CB would have very limited use for the following reasons.

1) the adventure difficulty is WAY above novice. Too much info for a new to hero GM and way too tough for first time builds. A gold mine if the GM is experienced. Certain death if used as the first attempt to play hero.

2) The maps are fantastic as maps. The mall and its detail is everything I would want. Now if I could actually use it in a game. There is no exploded view of sections and if the lighting isn't at the million candle power you need a magnifier glass to count the hexes. I Xeroxed the page and penciled in hex counts so when I use the mall I can draw out the section accurately. The locations are awesome, but without being able to print out or copy sections of the map at table scale they lose a lot of their versatility.

3) Doesn't run out of the box. If I don't own CKC I will have to design and staff many of the NPC's myself. For a new GM, learning how run Hero, the scale of CB is just too big for them to easily make that many NPC's.

Now before anyone gets the wrong idea. None of the above items 1-3 bothers me in the least. I have all of them and think they are GREAT.

I have been playing Hero on and off since 1982 and have developed fair to middling GMing skills so I can adapt. The map item? I admit to a bit of disappointment, because they are FAR better than my feeble drawing skills and I would LOVE to be able to print them out and put them on the table. But I can deal with no problem. It is just that they are not Adventures, they are by your definition Scenario books, or what I refer to as Mini-Campaigns. A series of adventures that cover a story arc and lead to a conclusion. In CB each "Adventure" is one step in a larger goal. In any product you can use pieces for other purposes and the setting in CB are indeed useful. But if I was Bubba the "hey look at this cool game lets try it" first time GM and bought CB. I would be out of luck. To be an Adventure they would have 100% of everything the GM needs minus PC's.

Now I don't remember which, but either Shades or Coils is a complete Adventure. I haven’t used them yet, because they are just too good to waste on a group as an intro or with less developed Heroes and I haven’t had a regular gaming group for a while.

But when all is said and done, the fact that I personally what to see complete single session adventure doesn’t mean I’m going to see them. It isn’t my bottom line and I don’t see the books.

If Thrilling Places, which was a Setting Book through and through didn’t sell well enough to prompt more books, then it just isn’t going to happen. Because TP was one of the best setting books I have ever seen.

It is like MAP discs. They have already tried it with the Fantasy maps. If they would have sold well we would see more. I would kill for the CB and TP Maps at a high enough resolution so I could print out sections large enough a “hex” would hold a mini. But this was discussed “way back” and the bottom line is there is no evidence to support that sale would justify the time needed to redo all the maps at a higher resolution. While they do have evidence that the maps disc they did do didn’t sell enough.

To focus on the main topic. Like has been already said. I would LOVE 12 new books a year. But it isn’t going to happen. Like they said the compilations are an easy way to put out a marketable product with minimum use of creative resources. They do not “replace” planned new books, they are in addition to them.

Also about books dropping off the future schedule. The future production schedules have never been promises or written in stone. They are plans. The 08 schedule will change according to expectations. If the type book doesn’t sell or the genre doesn’t. Then they will modify it to something that will. From my understanding the StarHero just doesn’t sell well. I am not surprised because I don’t have them all and only plan to get them all for the sake of completeness. But on the other side of the coin I cannot comprehend why anyone doesn’t own ALL of the Pulp line. It is the best genre out there, isn’t it? ;)

In the end as a customer I am more than satisfied with how Hero does things. When I buy a Hero book, I know without looking it will meet a high standard. It will be crunchy. Do I like the compilations? Some yes, some no. Will I buy them? Some yes. I will get all of them eventually for the collection. Do I think everyone should buy them? It might be a nice idea, but no. A person should buy what they want or need.

Well I have run out of ramble so I'll stop now....

:D

[RPMiller]

Awesome reviews Spence! Repped, and I will definitely look into them, thank you.

[Spence]

Awesome reviews Spence! Repped, and I will definitely look into them, thank you.

Thanks :D

But since you called it a review I thought I’d go back and give some real info. I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression

Champions Battlegrounds (CB)

A linked adventure of Five Parts.
Chapter One: A Walk in the Park, has a great map of a Park
Chapter Two: Let’s Go To The Maul, several great maps of a Mall.
Chapter Three: Fatal Attractions, several maps concerning an Amusement Park
Chapter Four: Under Construction, maps of a construction site
Chapter Five: Down in the Hole, a warehouse

This would be perfect for several sessions. I would spread it out with one or two unrelated sessions in between. Not good for a beginner because a) it is a large detailed adventure and b) fifteen of the listed villains are from another book (CKC)


Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds (FB)

Not my favorite genre so I had to go back and look.
Chapters 1-3 have 3 unrelated but complete adventures.
Chapter One: A Night Out of the Rain, map of an Inn
Chapter Two: From Out of the Depths, map of a mine and a surprise.
Chapter Three: Eisburk-Beyond-the-Shouls, A Castle!
Chapter Four: Fantasy Locations (8)
An Abby, A Manor, A magical location, another Inn/Tavern, An Alchemists Shop, A Prison, A Farmhouse and a Wizard Tower. All with MAPS!!

While all of the locations and adventures come with pre-generated NPC’s and unique others. But is does reference the Bestiary and MM&M for several, which reduces its utility for a beginner. I like it and have used locations out of it in Champs, DC and PH.


Thrilling Places (TP)

A must have for any genre! While these are locations and not adventures, this is just too useful for you not to have. Each location has one or more maps, plus many have additional goodies. For instance the office building includes a detective agency with NPC write ups for the detective, secretary and assistant. While the write ups are meant for Pulp, they can be used for far more.
Fourteen chapters.
1. A ten story office building
2. volcanic city
3. a tropical island complete with a cult
4. a monster infested island ala King Kong’s
5. a time forgotten cavern
6. a hidden magical street in Chinatown
7. a lost Greek city and Temple
8. a BIG nightclub in big city USA. Maps for all five floors
9. an old German castle in Bavaria
10. A big theater of the old style (or opera house)
11. a hidden temple/monastery in China
12. an Egyption tomb
13. a small Mayan City
14. extras

Sharper Than a Serpents Tooth (StaST)

A linked adventure of Three Parts. You get several great maps that include a Ghost Town, a sewer system and a subway station plus more.
Chapter One: Showdown at Snake Gulch
Chapter Two: The Ophidian Plague
Chapter Three: The Coils of the Serpent
Chapter Four: this has the villain organization write up and all of the NPC’s except 7 from CKC.

Shades of Black (SoB)

A three act adventure.
Chapter One: Act One
Chapter Two: Act Two
Chapter Three: Act Three

All I can say is fantastic! It includes an intricately mapped mansion. With a GM and a player map for each floor. It also has several “handouts” like police and medical examiners reports. Since SoB is a PDF they can be printed and handed out, the player and GM maps are formatted so they will print out 8x11. But some NPC’s are from other books, 1 from CKC, 1 from Champs and 2 from the Bestiary.


To wrap up. If CB, StaST and SoB included all of the needed villains and creatures under their covers these would be totally complete and self contained adventures. If the 7 villains not in StaST and the 4 villain/beasts in SoB were included in those two products they would be perfect for the aspiring hero GM to “see how a real Champions Adventure” is made. While they are awesome for an experienced group, they are not beyond the a new group and not so complicated that a newer group will be overwhelmed.

I wish there were more of these!:D

[ghost-angel]

If you want some more info, I have full reviews of Champions Battlegrounds (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12724.phtml), Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12681.phtml) and Thrilling Places (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12567.phtml) on RPG.Net

I have a review for Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth written, but not submitted to RPG.Net yet; there's a few reviews in my queue before it that need to be written and submitted first. I may simply post the review in the Champions Forum next week as RPG.Net likes to only post one review a week from a single person, makes for slow reviewing.

[Spence]

Duhoooo :ugly:

I wish I would have remembered.

Read GA's reviews. They are MUCH more detailed and informative than my little ramble.

GA are you going to review SoB after submitting StaST?

[Steve Long]

Chapters 1-3 [of FHB] have 3 unrelated but complete adventures.

Quick addendum: there is a common thread/storyline running through all three adventures in FHB that lets you connect them if you want to. It's just not as strong, or as in the forefront, as the thread tying together the five parts of CB. ;)

[ghost-angel]

Duhoooo :ugly:

I wish I would have remembered.

Read GA's reviews. They are MUCH more detailed and informative than my little ramble.

GA are you going to review SoB after submitting StaST?

It's on the list, everything is on the list including all the HPAs.

But the big books are are the top of the list so it could be a while before SoB gets a review.

[Spence]

It's on the list, everything is on the list including all the HPAs.

But the big books are are the top of the list so it could be a while before SoB gets a review.

Sounds good, looking forward to it...

[awall]

I was hoping for a section that would guide newcomers to through the whole "power from effect" concept. The biggest difficulty for a new to hero gamer is that hero has nothing even close to classes or types that have pre-structured abilities.

I can't agree more. As someone who is new to Hero this is something that I can't stress enough that this system seems to lack. I've picked up hero and put it down so many times, that I've lost count. Though strangely enough I keep coming back to it every now and then. I've yet to create a single character in this system and it's not for my lack of trying I have H5R, Sidekick, and the UNTIL superpowers database, and Hero Builder to name a few.

In a perfect world this info should have been included in one of the books I already own, the thought that I'd have to shell out more fundage to learn this stuff is not a strong point of this system. One of the common things I hear about Hero is that it's a great supers system if you can ever get past the crunch.

[ghost-angel]

I can't agree more. As someone who is new to Hero this is something that I can't stress enough that this system seems to lack. I've picked up hero and put it down so many times, that I've lost count. Though strangely enough I keep coming back to it every now and then. I've yet to create a single character in this system and it's not for my lack of trying I have H5R, Sidekick, and the UNTIL superpowers database, and Hero Builder to name a few.

In a perfect world this info should have been included in one of the books I already own, the thought that I'd have to shell out more fundage to learn this stuff is not a strong point of this system. One of the common things I hear about Hero is that it's a great supers system if you can ever get past the crunch.

The Character Creation Handbook is going to be Chapter 1 from the Rule Book, plus a few other bits. So no - you don't really have to shell out more bucks for the character stuff.

Hero does too have a parallel to "classes." They are called Package Deals and Archetypes. All the genre books have a section that cover major Archetypes in the genre with suggested Skills and abilities.

The strength of Hero is that none of these are in any way set in stone, they are simply ideas and suggestions.