Mass of non-armor

[Seenar]

Hey, any idea how much one should mass general equipment? How much does a sword mass, anyway? Does anyone have some good rules of thumb on equipment mass?

[Vondy]

Mass will almost always correlate to our intuitive impression of the quantity of matter that comprises an object. Thus mass is the amount of stuff in an object.

The expression the weight of an object is really just saying the force of gravity on an object. Thus weight is local gravitational force.

From a laymans point of view Pounds are units of force and Kilograms are units of mass.

As such, you can convert pounds to kilograms to get the basic mass of an object. A sword that weighs 6.6 pounds under the local gravity of the earth masses approx. 3 kilograms of "stuff".

This doesn't take into account volume or density, but it does allow a simplified conversion.

I'm sure a physicist, or one of our local science gurus could help you with calculating volume, which may apply to your task.

Edit: the exact kilogram (mass) to pound (force) conversion is

1 kilogram = 2.2046226 pounds

[Chris Goodwin]

I think he was just asking for common weights of the sorts of stuff you'd find in a fantasy game.

(I'm reminded of the joke about a physicist attempting to predict the milk output of a dairy cow: "First, assume a spherical cow...")

[Vondy]

If that is the case I was confused by the fact that he asked for mass as opposed to weight, which are distinct concepts.

Amount of stuff versus force of gravity on said stuff.

Seenar?

[Seenar]

I actually know what Mass is, compared to weight. Since the book used kilograms, I was being precise.

I am looking to see if anyone has rough estimates of what basic equipment might mass so I can calculate encumbrance.

[Yamo]

I am looking to see if anyone has rough estimates of what basic equipment might mass so I can calculate encumbrance.

Anyone else's "estimates" are unlikely to be significantly more accurate or valuable than your own, so you're really better off just using a combination of your own experience and "close enough for a game" educated guesses for anything outside it.

[Seenar]

Originally posted by Yamo
Anyone else's "estimates" are unlikely to be significantly more accurate or valuable than your own, so you're really better off just using a combination of your own experience and "close enough for a game" educated guesses for anything outside it.

Gee thanks, that's real helpful. :rolleyes:

I am interested in how others have approached this.

[Yamo]

Gee thanks, that's real helpful.

Better than real condescending, pal. Ditch the attitude and you'll get farther.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Seenar
Gee thanks, that's real helpful. :rolleyes:

I am interested in how others have approached this.

With swords I've gone online and done searches for "battle ready swords" or "full tang swords". The outlets that sell such things usually inlcude approx. weight/mass in their online catalogues. Some of them have other midieval weapons they sell as well.

You can also do searches for modern armorers, people who make chain mail or leather armor, to get weights for those, though they tend to be sketchier about providing details.

With other equipment its much more difficult. You have two issues in play. The first is that we commonly use lighter materials that were unavailable in the middle ages for a lot of things (like backpacks, mess kits, etc). You can either get the weight/mass of modern items and then evaluate them to determine if you think they should go up or down, or you can just take a guess at it.

REI catalogs, army-navy catalogues, camping catalogues, and the like can at least give you a starting point.

[Vondy]

This might be a useful link for the more common midieval weapons:

http://www.swords-n-stuff.com/

[Vondy]

I don't know what I was thinking!!!

Are you familiar with Harnworld? The Harn people are fanatics when it comes to midieval accuracy and have produced materials on everything from how to manage mideival crops to... well, lets just say I used the word fanatics for a reason.

They have some detailed equipment tables with accurate midieval weights on them. I have the core harnworld book at home. I'll go take a look and see how useful it might be to you. In the meantime you can go to the Harnlink page:

http://www.warflail.com/harnlink/

[Tempuswolf]

I googled this up:

Fantasy Hero Strength Table (http://mojobob.netnet.net.nz/roleplay/hero/strength.html)

Hopefully, Fantasy Hero 5th Ed. will have something like this. I pulled 4th Ed., unless I just can't find one, there isn't one in it or the two companions.

As far as a rule of thumb, a meter cube of water weighs 1000 kg, a decimeter cube (~4 inches) is a liter weighs 1 kg, a gallon of water weighs 8 lbs; metal is denser than water so weighs more for a given volume, wood is less dense (generally), stone is usually about twice as dense.

My last suggestion is just steal some other systems chart.

(Doh, my typing speed betrays me again.)

[Shaddakim]

I have a list containing a wide variety of equipment items and their mass. It was developed by one of the guys in my college FH group. He spent time either tracking down items and actually weighing them or researching their weight in other ways. The resulting list (known as Lan's List, as he was the one who wrote it) became our bible on equipment.

Send me your e-mail address as a private message and I'll e-mail you a copy. I typed it into MS Word and made a PDF of it so it isn't very large, file size-wise. The only thing I ask is that you not change the name of the file, it's Lan's material and he deserves the credit for the work.

[Seenar]

Thanks guys, this is helpful.

Man, D, you are not kidding about being fanatics.

The 4th Ed link implies that full armor and equipement addes up to 50kg. I am leaning towards around 10-15kg assumption of equipment, depending on the character, but we will see how that adds up when we look at the numbers.

[mudpyr8]

Jeebus Kriste people. The poster simply asked for weapon mass, not a discussion of mass vs. weight, or the basis of the metric system.

Here's what you want to know. All of the weights are in pounds, but you can do the conversion.

I can think of 3 definitive sources off the top of my head.

1. GURPS Low Tech (SJG). An excellent source not only for standard equipment, but its history and development.

2. System Reference Document (WotC). http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
All of the equipment in D&D is Open Gaming Licensed and free to use. Since I convert a lot of my adventures, we use the D&D gold standard (makes treasure easy to deal with), and use that EQ list since it is so exhaustive. Now, so that we don't have to get retardulously pedantic, I simply divide the weights by 2 to get a Hero/quasi-metric mass. Since Hero chars are stronger than most people, the difference relative to encumberance is negligable (10%).

3. And a 10 foot Pole (ICE). Incredibly detailed listing, including craft times and such. Very useful. However, money system is very different from D&D or anything else. However, it is a solid base.

4. Fantasy Hero. Be patient, there is a boatload of EQ with mass in FH which will be out next month.

I hope that helps Seenar.

[mudpyr8]

Most sources I have read indicate that a suit of fitted plate weighed around 60-70 lbs.

While mobile, nobody traveled in plate unless they were on horseback, and even then only if they had to.

The idea that you might put on that much armor and add 20-30 lbs of gear (besides a primary weapon), is not a fun one.

AFAIK, since we didn't have adventurers historically, and all warriors who marched any significant distance were not in heavy armor, it's unclear whether a case could be made that in the right situation someone would carry all that gear plus heavy armor.

I prefere a small dose of realism in my FH games, which basically precludes heavy armor from the adventuring party, unless they are specifically gearing up for a known combat. Typically a knight would wear medium chest armor, and light elsewhere, while travelling, and upon arrival to the "dungeon" don his plate and leave all of his gear on his horse, guarded by his henchman and squire.

That's my .02.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Seenar
Thanks guys, this is helpful.

Man, D, you are not kidding about being fanatics.



The size of every fief, the population of every hamlet, and the name of every aristocrat...

Example: HarnManor, which is the rules set for generating manors, has weather charts, planting charts, crop yield rules, and the estimated income for a particular fief, the list goes on...

It has sheets for fiefs that are like character sheets, with enough spaces for the name, age, occupation and income of every peasant...

The Maps are what I love about Harn, though. They are absolutely beautiful.

[Eodin]

Hey Shaddakim, that Lan wouldn't happen to be Lan Kelly, would it? If so, tell him Eodin from the Lubbock days says hi!

[Shaddakim]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Most sources I have read indicate that a suit of fitted plate weighed around 60-70 lbs.

While mobile, nobody traveled in plate unless they were on horseback, and even then only if they had to.
(snip)
I prefere a small dose of realism in my FH games, which basically precludes heavy armor from the adventuring party, unless they are specifically gearing up for a known combat. Typically a knight would wear medium chest armor, and light elsewhere, while travelling, and upon arrival to the "dungeon" don his plate and leave all of his gear on his horse, guarded by his henchman and squire.

That's my .02.

I like the way you think. Quite an obvious thing that that I never grokked to. I will be adding that to my campaign. I thank you and my players may curse you. ;)

What DEF/weight do you consider heavy armor to start at? What range is medium?

Thank you for your time.

[Shaddakim]

Originally posted by Eodin
Hey Shaddakim, that Lan wouldn't happen to be Lan Kelly, would it? If so, tell him Eodin from the Lubbock days says hi!

Eodin,
Yes, actually, it is. I somewhat lost contact with him once he moved to San Antonio, but have kept my copy of his List. When did you game with him? I gamed with him mid to late '80s. (Please send your reply via PM so we can finish our conversation off this list.)

If anyone else is in contact with Lan, please tell him "Hi!" from both of us. Better yet, get him onto this forum.

Thank you for your time.

[Shaddakim]

Originally posted by D-Man
The size of every fief, the population of every hamlet, and the name of every aristocrat...

Example: HarnManor, which is the rules set for generating manors, has weather charts, planting charts, crop yield rules, and the estimated income for a particular fief, the list goes on...
(snip)


Hey, is HarnManor still in print? I collect source material from a variety of game systems and could use a good source on handling manors. My PC's have just reached the point where they can afford to own a place to live and I would like to have something to go by.

Thank you for your time.

[mudpyr8]

Why, thanks, I think.

I think the Hero mass is fine. This is what I do with armor:

LIGHT (1-3 DEF)
In addition to encumberance, this is -1 DCV/DEX Roll

MED (4-6 DEF)
In addition to encumberance, this is -2 DCV/DEX Roll

HVY (7+ DEF)
In addition to encumberance, this is -3 DCV/DEX Roll

Now, Armor Expert can be purchased at 3 pts/level. Each level negates a -1. The encumbrance penalty can never be negated except by STR.

This is pretty much straight outta FH 5th Ed. as an optional rule.

I also base enc off of Casual STR (again an optional rule from FH), and then halve it at each level. So, a 10 STR person has the following levels:

100-51 kg = lifting (action)
50-26 kg = -4, -4"
25-12.6 kg = -3, -2"
12.5-6.26 kg = -2, -1"
6.25-3.126 kg = -1
<3.125 kg = 0

The lifting note is to say that using more than your casual strength (here interpreted as 50% of your lifting ability), requires an action. Using your cas. str is a 0 PHA action.

This makes enc a little more realistic. A 20 STR person would be at -2 if carrying 25-50kg and -1 move, which is still pretty good.

If you didn't use the chart above, but just stuck to the percentages as on pg 250 of the book, but still used the cas. str. idea, the 20 STR guy would be in the -1 category with no move penalty for 25-50kg.

I don't know about you, but I'm a backpacker/hiker. I can deadlift about 380 lbs (175 kg), giving me about a 15 STR. When I packed a 35 kg pack, I was NOT agile at all. I could hike just fine, but I would say I was at about a -3, -2" level, but maybe it was a -2, -1" level. Point is either way works, but the standard rules don't (which put me at only a -1 with no move penalty).

If you want to emphasize skill, go with the more penalizing system and then allow a 3pt skill "Extra Encumbrance" that offsets 1 level of penalties.

Just some ideas.

Oh, another hiker thing that would work perfectly in a fantasy game: goats. Goats are cheap, feed themselves (assuming even marginal terrain), and can carry about 20 kg. Perfect for the adventurer that only wants to be loaded down with weapons and armor. Goats can be scared off, but they tend to not want to run far. They will flee danger and then stop as soon as possible, so they are easy to round up after a battle. They are also quite agile, so don't suffer the problems of donkeys, mules, and horses, plus they are also small. They also taste okay in a pinch. Better than donkey meat anyway.

Okay, now I'm waaaaaay off topic. Later.

[Shaddakim]

Thanks Mudpyr, I like your thinking on this. I agree, the new encumberance levels are way too forgiving. I will probably use the Casual STR-on-the-current-chart option and see how that works out.

Thank you for your time.

[Arthur]

Boy, some people can turn ANYTHING into an argument. I'm sure glad I'M not like that...

:rolleyes:

Anyway, I have some background in physics, and I do the same thing: express Kg as "mass". Assuming 1 G, it doubles as a unit for "weight", as the proportion of Newtons to Kg remains constant (actually, that proportion holds under ANY uniform gravitational field).

However, I read it as just asking for the weights of common objects. If you have any GURPS books, they are the best resource. When Steve Jackson was designing the book, most contemporary RPGs just took wild guesses at the weights of things like swords and armor.

Steve went to his pals in the SCA, borrowed a bunch of items, and actually weighed them. Can't get much more scientific than that.

It turns out that the weights for armor in Hero are quite close to realistic - close enough for gaming purposes (especially considering there is no one "true value" for the weight of something like Field Plate - different armorers' output would be different mass).

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Shaddakim
Hey, is HarnManor still in print? I collect source material from a variety of game systems and could use a good source on handling manors. My PC's have just reached the point where they can afford to own a place to live and I would like to have something to go by.

Thank you for your time.

Yes, its on this page.

http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/allharnitems.cfg

[Vondy]

Originally posted by mudpyr8


Oh, another hiker thing that would work perfectly in a fantasy game: goats. Goats are cheap, feed themselves (assuming even marginal terrain), and can carry about 20 kg. Perfect for the adventurer that only wants to be loaded down with weapons and armor. Goats can be scared off, but they tend to not want to run far. They will flee danger and then stop as soon as possible, so they are easy to round up after a battle. They are also quite agile, so don't suffer the problems of donkeys, mules, and horses, plus they are also small. They also taste okay in a pinch. Better than donkey meat anyway.

Okay, now I'm waaaaaay off topic. Later.

And don't forget the burros... great pack animals.

[mudpyr8]

Agreed Arthur. Otherwise everyone in Europe is incredibly scientific. When I was in highschool in Germany I believe one day in gym class went like this (in German of course):

Teacher: "Weight?"
Me: "Seventy Five Kilograms."

If I had launched into a discussion about weight vs. mass, I would have been doing push ups until dawn, let alone if I had answered 160 pounds, or the number of newtons my mass exerted. It's also not a translation issue -- Germans have a distinct concept of mass and weight, just as we do. The europeans don't seem to be confused by using kg as a unit of weight, why should we be?

Some people get a little carried away and lose sight of things. Oh well, that's the beauty of language. So many things to so many people.

[mudpyr8]

Isn't a burro and a donkey the same thing? Or are they different?

My only problem with donkey is they are slow-ish (although walking speed is fine), kinda ornery, require special food (unless moving through grasses), and are real heavy if you need to pick them up.

They do carry more than goats tho, which can be quite useful.

Seriously, aren't burros and donkeys the same?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Isn't a burro and a donkey the same thing? Or are they different?

My only problem with donkey is they are slow-ish (although walking speed is fine), kinda ornery, require special food (unless moving through grasses), and are real heavy if you need to pick them up.

They do carry more than goats tho, which can be quite useful.

Seriously, aren't burros and donkeys the same?

A burro is a relative of the donkey, but is indiginous to the Americas. It is smaller, faster, and tends to have a better disposition than mules or donkeys.

[mudpyr8]

Sweet. I definitely would prefer them over donkeys.

[AnotherSkip]

How do they taste?

[Shaddakim]

Originally posted by D-Man
Yes, its on this page.

http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/allharnitems.cfg

Thank you for the info.

[Tempuswolf]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
How do they taste?

What? Haven't you ever had burritos?
Must be a regional thing.

[AnotherSkip]

hmmm most of the Burritos I get while very tasty


erm...

lack lags or the speed of a racing slug.


And even with a foil wrapping I doubt they would handle my backpack (30#+/-) over any terrain that was not frictionless.