So just what powers is Affects Real World needed on?

[Paragon]

I'm in the process of helping my wife put together a character that's a desembodied mentality. The mentality has psychokinetic powers and very minor telepathic ones. She mostly operates by inhabiting others and boosting their own powers. Now I know her TK, the Succor that boosts other psionic powers, and so on need Affects Real World. But what about her Mind Link? Her force field?

Can someone give me some guidance here?

[umbra]

I think that her force field needs to affect real world or it only protects against other desolidifed characters/attacks. Her mind link may be ok since it's ego based and I don't think that is effected by desolid.

[Monolith]

For the most part the Advantage only needs to be on powers which the character will use to affect the real world; and those are usually attack powers. Anything which would require an attack roll (either OCV or ECV) and will be used against a non-Desolidified foe should have it. Also if you want the character to be able to pick things up with her hands the Strength should also have the Advantage.

Judging by what you have listed below I would say the TK, the Succor, and her Mind Link should have it. Force Field, unless the power can be granted to others, does not need the Advantage. Also if the character has Telepathy, Mental Illusion, or Mind Control those powers would also need it. Basically any attack power which will be used against a non-Desolidified foe.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by umbra
I think that her force field needs to affect real world or it only protects against other desolidifed characters/attacks. Her mind link may be ok since it's ego based and I don't think that is effected by desolid.
I am fairly sure the Force Field would protect the character if it were hit by an attack which Affects Desolidified. Mental Powers do require the Affects Real World Advantage as well. They do not gain that benefit for free.

[Vondy]

The general rule of thumb is "if it is an attack power or ability and does not fall into the mental powers category it needs affects solid".

I don't think the FF requires affects solid.

[umbra]

hmmm your right about the force field, but as for the mind link that's a little hazzy. It's not really an attack, so it might be up to the GM. I don't know if it would shut down if you for example made the mindlink, then went desolid...

[Vondy]

I wouldn't require it on the mindlink because I perceive mindlink as being a mental power, but different GMs rule differently on that, and it does require an attack roll...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by umbra
hmmm your right about the force field, but as for the mind link that's a little hazzy. It's not really an attack, so it might be up to the GM. I don't know if it would shut down if you for example made the mindlink, then went desolid...
As D-Man states, the power does require an attack roll and is a Phase-Ending action. Here is Steve's official statement on it:


Establishing a Mind Link requires an ECV Attack Roll, and thus constitutes an Attack Action, so it ends a character's Phase if done in combat.

Based on that, and also based on the fact that Mental Attack Powers now require the Affects Real World Advantage, I would think the Mind Link would work just like all other attack powers.

[umbra]

Well what I mean is "usually" the target is willing, so I think that most GM's would allow you to use it when desolid... <shrug> our GM doesn't make us roll to attack when the subject is willing, but that's a house rule.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by umbra
Well what I mean is "usually" the target is willing, so I think that most GM's would allow you to use it when desolid... <shrug> our GM doesn't make us roll to attack when the subject is willing, but that's a house rule.
I do not think the point is the attack roll itself. I think the point is any power which would require an attack roll (whether used or not) should have the Advantage. A willing foe might allow you to shoot him with your RKA, but I still think you would need to buy it as Affects Real World. :)

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Monolith
For the most part the Advantage only needs to be on powers which the character will use to affect the real world; and those are usually attack powers. Anything which would require an attack roll (either OCV or ECV) and will be used against a non-Desolidified foe should have it. Also if you want the character to be able to pick things up with her hands the Strength should also have the Advantage.

Judging by what you have listed below I would say the TK, the Succor, and her Mind Link should have it. Force Field, unless the power can be granted to others, does not need the Advantage. Also if the character has Telepathy, Mental Illusion, or Mind Control those powers would also need it. Basically any attack power which will be used against a non-Desolidified foe.

In practice, the force field will primarily be used to protect others, specifically those she's inhabiting; in fact, it's hard to picture how it could not.

Which brings up the other question related to this: if a character is coocupying space with a desolid character, does either of them need UBO or the like to utilize the force field? In practice it's really difficult to construct a rationale where the force field would only protect one of the two since they're filling exactly the same space.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Paragon
Which brings up the other question related to this: if a character is coocupying space with a desolid character, does either of them need UBO or the like to utilize the force field? In practice it's really difficult to construct a rationale where the force field would only protect one of the two since they're filling exactly the same space.
It is not really that difficult to make that rationale when you realize that a Force Field can have many different SFX from temporarily hardened skin to an actual Barrier of Force. In any event, if you want the Force Field to be able to protect someone else than it would require both the UBO and Affects Real World Advantages.

[pinecone]

Maybe buy it as a Force wall that affects real world? that way there is no need for UBO ....

[Monolith]

Originally posted by pinecone
Maybe buy it as a Force wall that affects real world? that way there is no need for UBO ....
That is a good point too. Of course you would not be able to attack through it either, but it would serve the same purpose without the additional Advantage.

[TheEmerged]

I can't answer for the official position, but I've always ruled "any power that affects the real world". So I wouldn't require it for a Force Field intended to protect against a Vs Desolid attack, but I'd require it for all mental powers -- including Mind Link unless the "across universes" adder is paid for.

[Monolith]

Also, if the intent of the character is to be able to enter other people's bodies and move around with them you should also look at buying Clinging with the ARW Advantage. That will allow the character to "stick" to the host while inside (a character example of this is Bodyjacker from Millennium City).

[Killer Shrike]

The cost of suce a Force Wall would render it inefective more than likely however. Also, remember, Force Wall drops if breached.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
The cost of suce a Force Wall would render it inefective more than likely however.
Yeah, that +2 Advantage tends to make many things unreasonable. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Consider Armor UBO Affects Physical World, Nonpersistent, Must "inhabit" target (-1/2 maybe). Its also 0 END and invisibile.

[Killer Shrike]

For that matter, consider not making the character truly Desolid all the time at all and just take Damage Reduction 75% Resistant Not vs Affect Desolid Attack, and then buy her some Combat Luck (she can consciously let attacks pass thru her if she is aware of them, taking less damage).

If she wants to walk through walls, buy Desolid as well, but make it Nonpersistent and 1/2 Dcv Concentration (or other lims) to bring the cost down. She can turn it on when she wants to pass thru solids, and turn it off when she wants to attack.

To simulate that she is "incorporeal" you can take a PhysLim: Incorporeal and/or a DF: Incorporeal. Set the limit as you see fit. Buy her Strength down to represent an inability to grasp things well, etc etc etc.

Basically, the end result is she is conceptually semi-solid. Thus you dont have to take Affects Physical World on everything, and the character can interact, just at a diminished capacity.


I see it as being similar to Growth & DI & Shrinking -- If the logic holds that people that are permanently large should not buy Growth Always On, but instead buy the effects of what they want and take the downsides as PhysLims, limitations, and reduced stats then the same should hold true for people that are "permanently Desolid".

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Basically, the end result is she is conceptually semi-solid. Thus you dont have to take Affects Physical World on everything, and the character can interact, just at a diminished capacity.




That doesn't work; as I said, the individual is a naked mentality. She has no body at all.

Thanks for everyone's help, though I personally think the "clinging" thing is a bit excessive.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Paragon
Thanks for everyone's help, though I personally think the "clinging" thing is a bit excessive.
I was just giving an example from a published character who was built to be a Jericho clone. I would use it in my game because there is no rules reason that the character could not just walk away from the Desolidified person inside of them.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Monolith
I was just giving an example from a published character who was built to be a Jericho clone. I would use it in my game because there is no rules reason that the character could not just walk away from the Desolidified person inside of them.

And there's no more reason they couldn't here other than the fact she flies and would likely keep up with them. If your argument is based on the fact they may not have the same phases, I think that's overly catering to the game artifact of segmented movement, and would no more require her to fall behind than anyone else who specifically said they were moving to stay with someone.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Paragon
If your argument is based on the fact they may not have the same phases, I think that's overly catering to the game artifact of segmented movement, and would no more require her to fall behind than anyone else who specifically said they were moving to stay with someone.
If I were going to make an argument it would be more along the lines of the fact that if the character were to attack someone the host would still have action phases and could easily walk away from her while the Desolid character were at a Phase-Ending action. Also, if the host makes 6" of movement the Desolid character has no Phase left because she must expend all of her movement just to stay inside the host. That would probably be what my argument would be. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
If I were going to make an argument it would be more along the lines of the fact that if the character were to attack someone the host would still have action phases and could easily walk away from her while the Desolid character were at a Phase-Ending action. Also, if the host makes 6" of movement the Desolid character has no Phase left because she must expend all of her movement just to stay inside the host. That would probably be what my argument would be. :) Monolith is correct. Without Clinging you are giving the character free movement. Otherwise you are treating the host as a vehicle in which the character is a passenger, but without suffering any of the penalties of being a passenger in a moving vehicle.

[Osprey]

In my campaigns; The Force Field would require ARW, but the Mind Link would not.

I understand ML to be "Communication Only" and only works on "Willing Targets". (Of course ECV attacks can be pipe through after connection is made.) But the target can disconnect at any time.

Is ML requiring an Attack Roll a 5th Ed Rule?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Osprey
Is ML requiring an Attack Roll a 5th Ed Rule?
Yes. I posted Steve's official answer about that above.

[Talon]

Another option would be some sort of Extra-Dimensional Travel to "inside the target"; that gets rid of weird circumstances where someone tries to un-Cling the character (say, by using a Double Knockback attack against them while Desolid, so the host isn't affected).

As for the Mind Link, I would probably rule that establishing a Mind Link requires ARW, but using a pre-existing Mind Link does not. That might not be entirely consistent, but it makes sense to me.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Another option would be some sort of Extra-Dimensional Travel to "inside the target"; that gets rid of weird circumstances where someone tries to un-Cling the character (say, by using a Double Knockback attack against them while Desolid, so the host isn't affected).
If someone has a Double Knockback Affects Desolid attack then they should be allowed to kick out a Desolid passenger from a host. That attack combination has to be pretty rare. :)

I personally do not like the EDM option. It makes it too difficult to get rid of the character. If an evil spirit inhabits your character's body you want a reasonable way of getting it out; I know I would anyway. If you did decide to go with EDM though you will need to add the Transdimensional Advantage to the spirit's powers to make them work between the two dimensions (ala Shrinker).

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Another option would be some sort of Extra-Dimensional Travel to "inside the target"; that gets rid of weird circumstances where someone tries to un-Cling the character (say, by using a Double Knockback attack against them while Desolid, so the host isn't affected).

As for the Mind Link, I would probably rule that establishing a Mind Link requires ARW, but using a pre-existing Mind Link does not. That might not be entirely consistent, but it makes sense to me.

That works too. However, while it eliminates some wierdness, it adds some weirdness of its own, at least conceptually.

I always get real wary about "Kewl tricks with EDM" powers that use EDM as a way to basically move to a reality where things are the way the character wants them to be, including a custom "living body" dimension defined in such a way as to allow a character to pull off a gimick that would otherwise cost more points to do via conventional means.

Im not a fan of the More Expensive = Correct meta rule, but using EDM in this fashion just becomes a Bend Reality power if taken to its logical extreme.

[Vondy]

What about:

Transformation, BOECV (Host Body Into Willing Avatar) with the defined method on "untransforming" the character (required by Fred) being the list of potential ways the character can be removed from the host.

[The Monster]

Could this character be built as an AI instead of as a full character? It's not the same as Desolid, but doesn't/can't have all the stats like STR, BODY, etc. That way you don't have to buy ARW for powers, though you would have to buy END Reserve or zero END for everything.

KA would have no effect, but mental powers, Drains, et al. would work just fine without special modifiers. You'd have to buy senses, sound Images to talk, etc.

Actually, this is pretty much the same idea as the much-maligned Spirit rules from the old sourcebook, but I think it's a valid application.

I'm just talking off the top of my snot-filled head (sneeze, wheeze) so there's probably big problems with this. Standing by for slings and arrows...