Ogre NND Question

[Grimble]

O.K. Ogre has an NND Bearhug 6d6 Energy Blast. The defense is self contained breathing. Question: What if the one grabbed has Extended breathing? The brick in my group only needs to expend to expend END after 20 minutes of not breathing. Does he take the EB Dam after 20 mins held in the grab?


Grimble

[Checkmate]

No. What Oger is doing is forcing the air from your lungs. When you take expanded breathing, it represents that the air in your lungs can be used a lot longer, but you still need air in them.

[Sean Waters]

Depends: if the sfx of the extended breathing are that you can simply get by with a lot less oxygen than normal, rather than that you can hold an enormous amount in your lungs (and you can't, because lungs require air pressure to fill them) then extended breathing would probably be fine as a defence for however long it took.

Anyway a 6d6 NND is ridiculous: first off, even if your lungs were completely emptied, it would be a while before you used up the O2 in your blood - you can completely empty your lungs and not take 6d6 NND - and second, even if you felt the effects immediately, you suffocate far more slowly than that 'naturally'.

So, not a top piece of character design then.

[Checkmate]

But you're okay with boot jets?

[Hugh Neilson]

This is another example of powers designed to simulate an inability to breathe which operates very differently from actual suffocation (under the game rules and in real life). Like most such powers, it does far too much STUN, far too quickly, compared to having your air supply cut off.

And yet, Ogre can maintain that grip until he passes out from lack of sleep, keeping the target from pulling any oxygen into their lungs for hours, and they won't take any BOD damage, when real humans denied air for five minutes generally die.

To say it again, the system needs a "Suffocate" power.

[Armitage]

To say it again, the system needs a "Suffocate" power.

Like the variation of "Suffocation" in the Air Powers section of the UNTIL Superpowers Database?
Change Environment with -1 Temperature level to represent removing breathable gasses. The target is then forced to hold his breath until he runs out of END, STUN and BODY, as per the established rules for drowning.

[Sean Waters]

But you're okay with boot jets?

You've got a thing about jet boots, haven't you? Did you get issued with a duff pair?

I do understand the point: we are suspending disbelief and believing the unbelievable, so why stop at the rational?

I mean, fuel supply problems aside, the whole problem with stabilisation, the one about generating sufficient thrust but not melting your feet....that's just science.

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.

[Sean Waters]

Like the variation of "Suffocation" in the Air Powers section of the UNTIL Superpowers Database?
Change Environment with -1 Temperature level to represent removing breathable gasses. The target is then forced to hold his breath until he runs out of END, STUN and BODY, as per the established rules for drowning.

Change Environment is getting almost as bad as transform, EDM and snake oil medicine in the scope and variety of things it can do.

Perhaps we ought to have a catch-all:

Wooly Power

There is no definition as to what a Wooly Power can do; you can make up your own stuff, and it can do pretty much anything. It is probably best to make up a mechanic too. There are, however, limits: you have to define a defence and must spend at least 15 points on the power per target, unless the target is a planet, in which case the cost is 20 points, or the whole of creation, in which case it is 30.

[OddHat]

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks, simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.

[Dust Raven]

I had assumed all that massive NND damage from Ogre's bearhug attack came from all the air being suddenly forced from your lungs. I imagine that hurts something nasty...

As for the martial artist with Choke Hold and +8 DCs... Well, um... it's cinematic, right? Maybe it's the shock of suddenly not having the luxury of air anymore and you just pass out... I dunno, it's all movie magic.

[Tom]

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks, simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.

Tangental side-note... When you choke someone out in most martial manuevers that I'm familiar with, you're not suffocating them from lack of air to the lungs -- you're cutting off the flow of blood to their brain by restricting the carotid artery...

[OddHat]

Tangental side-note... When you choke someone out in most martial manuevers that I'm familiar with, you're not suffocating them from lack of air to the lungs -- you're cutting off the flow of blood to their brain by restricting the carotid artery...

Sure. The defense to the NND may for simplicity's sake be Self Contained Breathing, but then a case could be made that when Ogre, with strength that has a decent chance of crushing cars and smashing through concrete walls squeezes you, more than just losing air should come into play.

[Checkmate]

You've got a thing about jet boots, haven't you? Did you get issued with a duff pair?
Nah just one of the more unbeleive staples of comic books


I do understand the point: we are suspending disbelief and believing the unbelievable, so why stop at the rational?

I mean, fuel supply problems aside, the whole problem with stabilisation, the one about generating sufficient thrust but not melting your feet....that's just science.

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.
Well I think we first have to understand what STUN represents. I remember when I was a child, I was climbing a rope up a tree. I was about 7 feet off the ground and the rope broke and I landed flat on my back. Now normally a 7' fall to a 12 year old is nothing, but the air was knocked out of me. I couldn't breath, I couldn't move, and when I finally caught my breath it took a lot out of me. I was dazed, seeing stars. That was a heck of a lot different than when my brother held me under the water when I was already holding my breath. While I was technically suffocating under the water (burning END and maybe some STUN), it took much longer before I had nothing left than the fall did. So I would say that having the air forcefully expelled from your lungs is significant'y different than suffocation.

[CrosshairCollie]

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks, simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.

First, to quote a Monty Python sketch, (shrill British woman voice), "Don't you practice your alliteration on me!" ;)

Secondly, that's pretty much how I was thinking of it. It's not 'look, I'm stopping you from breathing', it's 'look, 60 Str Heimlich Maneuver that makes both lungs squirt out your nostrils'.

[KarinsDad]

Secondly, that's pretty much how I was thinking of it. It's not 'look, I'm stopping you from breathing', it's 'look, 60 Str Heimlich Maneuver that makes both lungs squirt out your nostrils'.

So, Scubaman who has a tank on takes no damage because his lungs do not squirt out of his nostrils, but the brick in the OP's post who has a very strong chest takes full damage.

The problem that people are struggling with is that the defense to NNDs is another game mechanic, it is not SFX. And as long as defenses are always defined as game mechanics instead of special effects, people will continue to ask questions about things that happen in games that are not plausible to them, but is book literal what happens according to the rules.

That's a bit of a weakness of Heroes. Power defense typically protects against all adjustment powers, regardless of its special effect. ED typically protects against every energy in the world, regardless of its special effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

So, Scubaman who has a tank on takes no damage because his lungs do not squirt out of his nostrils, but the brick in the OP's post who has a very strong chest takes full damage.

And a small tabby cat which Ogre grabbed and, in a fit of pique, crushed to remove all the air from its lungs, is knocked out, but takes not BOD damage from having its lungs squirt out of its nostrils.

A punch in the stomach also expels a person's air pretty quickly. It would generally do "punch" damage (Stun and BOD), not special NND damage that a guy in a scuba mask won't take.

Maybe some of Ogre's NND shoud inflict BOD, or maybe it should only be an extra d6 or 2 delivered with a Squeeze maneuver that does normal damage, maybe with the advantage "does BOD" limited by "only when target already unconscious" so this maneuver could kill a high DEF Brick who still needs oxygen. It looks like this power isn't very accurately reasoned from effect.

[Silbeg]

I had assumed all that massive NND damage from Ogre's bearhug attack came from all the air being suddenly forced from your lungs. I imagine that hurts something nasty...

That's what I was thinking, too. Unfortunately, the SFX don't really work for someone with LS:SCB through a focus (unless SCUBA gear can keep air IN you lungs? :eek: ).


As for the martial artist with Choke Hold and +8 DCs... Well, um... it's cinematic, right? Maybe it's the shock of suddenly not having the luxury of air anymore and you just pass out... I dunno, it's all movie magic.

Yeah, it could be some of that? Dunno...

In reality, all of the "choking" should be done with other kinds of powers, and let the suffication do its work. Unfortunately, that would take far too much time to show on camera (or play out in a combat). So, we get cheesy constructs.

Would anyone doubt Ogre's ability to crush the breath out of a person's lungs? I don't think so. However, doing this would likely do other sorts of damage (crushing ribs, puncturing the lungs... maybe even stopping the heart?). So, for our "comic book" or "cinematic" , this is done to make playability work over realism.

[1EyedJack]

May buy it Avld, only PD figured from strength applies. That way some one like Cyclops gets less defense than say Spiderman.

[Silbeg]

May buy it Avld, only PD figured from strength applies. That way some one like Cyclops gets less defense than say Spiderman.

Now that would be an interesting build. Perhaps adding a limitation that if the target doesn't need to breath (for various reasons, but including a lack of lungs), he is immune.

[KarinsDad]

Now that would be an interesting build. Perhaps adding a limitation that if the target doesn't need to breath (for various reasons, but including a lack of lungs), he is immune.

I suggest that breathing not be part of the equation.

Any creature who is bear hugged should have his internal organs squeezed by a bear hug, not just creatures who can breath. Hence, very powerful creatures (as evidenced by PD) should be less affected by such an action and very weak creatures should be more affected by such an action.

Gee, maybe it should just be a 12D6 physical squeeze attack and the fancy smancy stuff be ignored. :thumbup:

Sometimes people overthink this stuff way too much in the name of creating a cool power.

[Sean Waters]

OK, we're off topic, but it is an interesting off topic.

The problem's with SCB as a defence have bee mentioned: Ogre squeezing a normal guy in a spacesuit is going to do the damage, if the squeeze does the damage at all, as if he didn't have the spacesuit (and so the defence). Moreover, that kind of squeeze is going to do Body damage to a lot of targets, if it is a choke hold, then SCB is the wrong defence (although, to give it it's due, it is the wrong defence for the martial manouevre too)? That's just some of the problems with that weak link to sfx. There's others.

Even if you can rationalise it, it takes effort, and that jars the flow of the game, which is bad. It is this sort of thing that really can put new players off:

NP: But that doesn't make sense because if he'd grabbed you he'd just keep hold.

GM: It makes perfect sense because he didn't buy the power with 'contuinuous'

POP

GM: What was that noise?

NP: The bubble bursting. Can you run DnD next week?

Still, bever mind, eh?

[Dust Raven]

That's what I was thinking, too. Unfortunately, the SFX don't really work for someone with LS:SCB through a focus (unless SCUBA gear can keep air IN you lungs? :eek: ).
SCUBA tanks are a Focus, and an accessible one at that. So, no, they don't grant protection against this kind of NND. They would against gas attacks and stuff, but not the crush the air out of your lungs (or squish the lungs our of your nose) attacks.




Yeah, it could be some of that? Dunno...

In reality, all of the "choking" should be done with other kinds of powers, and let the suffication do its work. Unfortunately, that would take far too much time to show on camera (or play out in a combat). So, we get cheesy constructs.

Would anyone doubt Ogre's ability to crush the breath out of a person's lungs? I don't think so. However, doing this would likely do other sorts of damage (crushing ribs, puncturing the lungs... maybe even stopping the heart?). So, for our "comic book" or "cinematic" , this is done to make playability work over realism.

I think generally crushing someone's chest into pulp should do BODY damage, or have the potential of doing so. I think this bearhug attack is bought the way it is because Ogre has the ability to regulate the pressure enough to knock someone out without harming them. While it does seem out of character, apparently Ogre has the ability to consciously not hurt someone.

[Dust Raven]

NP: But that doesn't make sense because if he'd grabbed you he'd just keep hold.

GM: It makes perfect sense because he didn't buy the power with 'contuinuous'

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

[pinecone]

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

Yeah,thats how I've always seen it ...grab,then squeeze....all in the same phase, or if he wants to taunt ya he waits a while then squeezes...

[Sean Waters]

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

You could certainly MPA it, but that is not the point: the point is that the sfx are of a grab even thoguh one is not taking place, which can lead those too stupid to understand that 'Hero doesn't do what it says, just what it is built to do' to the land of confusion.

Moreover, even if you DO grab someone on one phase then try the bearhug on the next....well, to be honest, I'm not sure what happens. Can you maintain teh grab whilst crushing? Probably, but I'm not sure. I'm not even sure that would properly be a MPA as the attack roll is not to hold on (that's the STR v STR roll) it is just to do damage.

It is not straightforward.

[Enforcer84]

yeah he has to crush the scuba tank. It saves yer nostrils.
hmmm I came in later than I thought on this one.

Anyway: Bearhug NND: sure, why not. Or...no, don't like it. Over analysis leads to bitter arguments over nothing.

[Sean Waters]

SCUBA tanks are a Focus, and an accessible one at that. So, no, they don't grant protection against this kind of NND. They would against gas attacks and stuff, but not the crush the air out of your lungs (or squish the lungs our of your nose) attacks.



I'm not sure that being a focus is a problem: I mean, presumably if you were encased in a rigid power armour suit that provided LS, you'd be OK. Mind you it is also logical that if you have shapeshift you could probably avoid the effects, or if you have something on that provides chest protection that Ogre can't crush (i.e. even if the power armour DIDN'T provide LS, it doesn't make much sense that Ogre can crush it sufficient to drive the air from your lungs without damaging it at all). Or, presumably if you were stronger than Ogre, or big enough that he couldn't get his arms round your chest, or...

I stick by my contention that poorly thought out sfx are the bane of Hero.

I'm not saying this power can't be build - you can, it is easy, but I am saying that you really need to properly consider the sfx if you are going to. SFX are not a colour wash applied at the end of the construction process, they are an integral part of the construction process, or should be.

[Lord Liaden]

But this is assuming that a meticulous, logical mapping of game mechanic effect to SFX is a goal desired by the parties involved in the actual game. For some gamers (including groups I'm familiar with) that degree of verisimilitude would be neither needed nor desired.

It's only a flaw of character design if the people using said character consider it a flaw. If they do it can easily be changed to something more logical, as has been pointed out here.

[Sean Waters]

But this is assuming that a meticulous, logical mapping of game mechanic effect to SFX is a goal desired by the parties involved in the actual game. For some gamers (including groups I'm familiar with) that degree of verisimilitude would be neither needed nor desired.

It's only a flaw of character design if the people using said character consider it a flaw. If they do it can easily be changed to something more logical, as has been pointed out here.

I'd not be half so critical if it was not an official Hero System character.

[Lord Liaden]

That's your right, of course. Personally I have no problem with the build, and it being "official" has no bearing on how I feel about it. I've changed more official stuff for my own games over the years than I can count.

I'm prepared to say that I don't like or agree with how some things have been built in published books. I wouldn't necessarily tell anyone who did agree with them that they're wrong. Not that I'm saying you're doing that! :no:

[Sean Waters]

That's your right, of course. Personally I have no problem with the build, and it being "official" has no bearing on how I feel about it. I've changed more official stuff for my own games over the years than I can count.

I'm prepared to say that I don't like or agree with how some things have been built in published books. I wouldn't necessarily tell anyone who did agree with them that they're wrong. Not that I'm saying you're doing that! :no:

I just think that published materials are an opportunity to show Hero in its very best light, for those less experienced with the game. Well, for everyone, actually.

This power can be made to work, or changed to work, but it doesn't really do what it claims to. It is a damaging power with a pretty spurious explanation. It makes the character more combat efficient, in case Ogre is fighting someone with such high pd that even he is not getting through, but that is no reason at all to have the power on the character sheet.

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

[Dust Raven]

I just think that published materials are an opportunity to show Hero in its very best light, for those less experienced with the game. Well, for everyone, actually.

This power can be made to work, or changed to work, but it doesn't really do what it claims to. It is a damaging power with a pretty spurious explanation. It makes the character more combat efficient, in case Ogre is fighting someone with such high pd that even he is not getting through, but that is no reason at all to have the power on the character sheet.

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

Yes, you're being overly critical. :yes: :D

It's not that the Power can be made to work or changed to work. It works. It can be made, or used in a way, in which it doesn't work, or doesn't make sense. Not really an issue for me. It's also on a Champions character, a genre most known for its physics and reason defying abilities. I certainly wouldn't allow a Dark Champions character to have this, nor a Fantasy Hero or Star Hero character. Maybe a wild martial arts Ninja Hero character, but on a Champions character I can't really question it.

[Sean Waters]

Yes, you're being overly critical. :yes: :D

It's not that the Power can be made to work or changed to work. It works. It can be made, or used in a way, in which it doesn't work, or doesn't make sense. Not really an issue for me. It's also on a Champions character, a genre most known for its physics and reason defying abilities. I certainly wouldn't allow a Dark Champions character to have this, nor a Fantasy Hero or Star Hero character. Maybe a wild martial arts Ninja Hero character, but on a Champions character I can't really question it.

It works on a mechanical level, and that's all.

It doesn't even reflect the flimsy level of reality we find in comics. Not ones that anyone would buy more than once. And that is very much my point.

I mean, you might have gotten away with it in the 1930s, but a lot has changed since then :D

[Lord Liaden]

I suspect the discussion has reached one of those "agree to disagree" points. ;)

[Sean Waters]

I suspect the discussion has reached one of those "agree to disagree" points. ;)

I suspect you are a right, but I've never really trusted my suspicions. I'm too suspicious to be right all the time :D

[KarinsDad]

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

I do not think you are being overly critical.

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

The power works mechanically, but why?

Me: "What's the SFX?"

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

[Reality Czech]

I do not think you are being overly critical.

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

The power works mechanically, but why?

Me: "What's the SFX?"

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

I think this basically nails the issue in any reality vs. mechanics conflict. If the player and GM can't agree on a SFX justification for the power/effect as written, it needs to be re-written to satisfy. The crux of this is it's an agreement between one GM and (probably) one player and that's all. If looking at Ogre's NND attack dosen't allow you to suspend disbelief, then it's inadequately written. At the end of the day, either you choose to accept it or you don't.

In Jurassic Park, dinosaurs were running around eating people, which most would agree is unrealistic (There are currently no dinosaurs in real life), but for the purposes of the movie it was acceptable. Disbelief was suspended. Now imagine the heroes are cornered by a T-Rex and a flying saucer hovers down and vaporizes the T-Rex. Most people would have a problem with this in a Jurassic Park movie because it's not consistent with the agreed-upon reality of the movie; but if none of the audience complained (Hard to imagine this, but just for example) there'd be no issue. The arrival of a flying saucer is no more "unrealistic" than the presence of the T-Rex, so provided everyone agrees the flying saucer's arrival is a palatable event, arguing the "realism" of the event is unnecessary.

Note I don't say arguing it is useless, stupid, a waste of time, etc. I only state that it's unnecessary.

[Dust Raven]

It works on a mechanical level, and that's all.

It doesn't even reflect the flimsy level of reality we find in comics. Not ones that anyone would buy more than once. And that is very much my point.

I mean, you might have gotten away with it in the 1930s, but a lot has changed since then :D

Yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I think it represents a potential aspect of reality, though perhaps a cinematic reality, and it definitely represents a superheroic reality. Used all by itself, it represents a quick squeeze and let go. It does and represents exactly what it's mechanics says it does, and there it nothing really unrealistic about it unless someone is making unreasonable assumptions about what else it should do. And even then, if you want to use it with those elses (actually grabs and perhaps maintains a grab on the target, also crushes the target for additional physical damage, etc), just MPA with the Grab maneuver.

[Dust Raven]

I do not think you are being overly critical.

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

The power works mechanically, but why?

Me: "What's the SFX?"

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well, what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' hurts."

[Sean Waters]

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well, what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' hurts."

If we agreed to disagree none of us would be here.

Having all the air shoved out of your lungs doesn't hurt. Having your rib cage crushed so that your ribs are bent in to crush your lungs hurts. Getting a blow to the sternum that temporarily paralyses the diaphragm so that you can't breathe is painful but more importantly is likely to induce panic. The thing is that crushing someone is not, by any any stretch of the imagination, an NND attack. It is a contest of arm strength against body strength, taking into account the internal structure of your opponent and any rigid external defences. There are clear and obvious defences which are certainly not all or nothing. The right way to do this is a grab and squeeze. You can be without air for minutes before you start taking any real damage. Certainly a phase will trouble your stun total not at all. The volume of air in your lungs is utterly irrelevant.

You can determine any level of reality you like for the games you are in, but, frankly, most of us are not that dedicated. What I do, and I imagine what the vast majority of people do, is assume we are playing in the real world but we've added superheroes and supervillains and such. I don't change the underlying physics. Even if you do, though, and have a 4 colour world, let me tell you what is utterly unbelieveable about this power, no matter what level of reality you are taking it on:

If Ogre bearhugs Mega Armoured Super Strong (MASS) he does the same amount of damage as if he'd bearhugged Naked Weak No Defence Chap With The Same STUN As MASS (NWNDCWTSSAM).

That's assuming that Ogre can do the same thing to the two characters, which is the first unrealistic assumption (I'm figuring it is going to be a lot harder to drive the air from Grond's lungs), and it is assuming that that big bearhug does exactly the same both of them, which presumably means that he stops with NWNDCWTSSAM at the point where all the air has gone, and doesn't simply crush him.

Yes you can MP with a grab and squeeze, but the power is not built so that you have to. I mean if we can add in additional requirements to make the thing realistic, we can build it more realistically to start off with.

Quick question, for those who think that this kind of half hearted rationalisation (Deliberately inflammatory? Me?) is acceptable in a game that wants to be taken seriously:

What happens when Ogre NNDs Defender, whose chest is encased in rigid armour? Now Defender (IIRC, and if I don't, let us assume...) has LS (sealed systems breathing), so presumably nothing happens. Now if Defender takes his helmet off (i.e. he's switched off the LS but kept the armour on), and Ogre tries the same thing, suddenly he takes the damage?

What, from anything but a mechanical POV, has changed?

[Dust Raven]

If we agreed to disagree none of us would be here.
I said agree to disagree, not agree to not argue about it. ;)


Having all the air shoved out of your lungs doesn't hurt.
You have obviously never had "the fat guy" sit on you during recess. Exhaling doesn't hurt, even holding your breath doesn't hurt. But having all that air shoved out all at once hurts. A lot. Trust me. The fat guy sat on me. And I didn't take any physical damage. Maybe I have a really high PD, but I doubt it.

Granted, I wasn't anywhere near knocked out, but I was at least Stunned, and the fat guy didn't even sit on my long, maybe what I'd call a single Phase, maybe less. I'd say maybe the fat guy had bought Sit on People: EB 3d6 NND (LS: SCB), No Range.


If Ogre bearhugs Mega Armoured Super Strong (MASS) he does the same amount of damage as if he'd bearhugged Naked Weak No Defence Chap With The Same STUN As MASS (NWNDCWTSSAM).

That's assuming that Ogre can do the same thing to the two characters, which is the first unrealistic assumption (I'm figuring it is going to be a lot harder to drive the air from Grond's lungs), and it is assuming that that big bearhug does exactly the same both of them, which presumably means that he stops with NWNDCWTSSAM at the point where all the air has gone, and doesn't simply crush him.

Well, it's not my fault is the defense of the NND is poorly decided. It should read "no need to breathe or crush-proof lungs" or something like that. Though it should have the exact same effect on Grond as it would have on a normal. The difference is that the normal will be knocked out and Grond won't even be Stunned. I'm sure you'd think at least that makes sense.


Yes you can MP with a grab and squeeze, but the power is not built so that you have to. I mean if we can add in additional requirements to make the thing realistic, we can build it more realistically to start off with.
I fail to see the problem. Why can't Ogre just squeeze real quick and let go? Or why should Ogre be force to grab and maintain a hold on his target? What's unrealistic about the way it's built? I find nothing wrong it it (well, duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you).


Quick question, for those who think that this kind of half hearted rationalisation (Deliberately inflammatory? Me?) is acceptable in a game that wants to be taken seriously:

What happens when Ogre NNDs Defender, whose chest is encased in rigid armour? Now Defender (IIRC, and if I don't, let us assume...) has LS (sealed systems breathing), so presumably nothing happens. Now if Defender takes his helmet off (i.e. he's switched off the LS but kept the armour on), and Ogre tries the same thing, suddenly he takes the damage?

What, from anything but a mechanical POV, has changed?

The only thing that has changed is how the GM has ruled the Power works. Personally, I've always treated the defense for NNDs very loosely and rarely literly. In official write-ups, I've taken what's listed as an example of a likely defense, but not an absolute and exclusive list. Maybe that's just me, but I've yet to hear a complaint from one of my players (though a few have raised an eyebrow at me).

[KarinsDad]

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well, what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' hurts."

Have your 4 year old daughter try to drive the air out of your lungs and tell me how much it hurts.

The SFX of Ogre's power is fine. It's the build that is faulty.

It should hurt Joe Martial Artist, but it should barely bother Joe Tank.

The fact that the game mechanics of that power has it hurt Joe Tank as much as it hurts Joe Martial Artist and it doesn't bother Joe Scuba Diver at all is why it is faulty.

The power in no way shape or form matches the SFX. It is just a "cool game mechanic idea" on an attack that avoids PD, but shouldn't.


Now, a SFX that matches the power might be a gas attack that affects anyone who does not need to breathe. But, not a bear hug. Bear hugs are physical attacks and physical attacks generally should be minimized by physical defenses.

[Sean Waters]

I said agree to disagree, not agree to not argue about it. ;)

Touche
:thumbup:



You have obviously never had "the fat guy" sit on you during recess. Exhaling doesn't hurt, even holding your breath doesn't hurt. But having all that air shoved out all at once hurts. A lot. Trust me. The fat guy sat on me. And I didn't take any physical damage. Maybe I have a really high PD, but I doubt it.

Granted, I wasn't anywhere near knocked out, but I was at least Stunned, and the fat guy didn't even sit on my long, maybe what I'd call a single Phase, maybe less. I'd say maybe the fat guy had bought Sit on People: EB 3d6 NND (LS: SCB), No Range.

I've played enough judo that I know it can be painful to be crushed, but I alos know that the effect is not an NND: if I'm expecting it and tense, then it doesn't hurt so much, and if the guy is a lot smaller, ditto.




Well, it's not my fault is the defense of the NND is poorly decided. It should read "no need to breathe or crush-proof lungs" or something like that. Though it should have the exact same effect on Grond as it would have on a normal. The difference is that the normal will be knocked out and Grond won't even be Stunned. I'm sure you'd think at least that makes sense.

This was why my example above had two characetrs with the same STUN total but wildly different DEF and STR.

Now what is 'crush proof'?

I mean Ogre would have a job crushing Grond, at least with any speed, and the fact that the defence is poorly constructed is my central thesis. If Defender can't be crushed with his helmet on but can with his helmet off then the power makes no sense at all, and if he can't be crushed with his helmet off then presumably sufficient DEF and/or STR should be a sufficient defence (although NND doesn't work like that, it doesn't do thresholds)



I fail to see the problem. Why can't Ogre just squeeze real quick and let go? Or why should Ogre be force to grab and maintain a hold on his target? What's unrealistic about the way it's built? I find nothing wrong it it (well, duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you).


Ogre can. Ogre has to.





The only thing that has changed is how the GM has ruled the Power works. Personally, I've always treated the defense for NNDs very loosely and rarely literly. In official write-ups, I've taken what's listed as an example of a likely defense, but not an absolute and exclusive list. Maybe that's just me, but I've yet to hear a complaint from one of my players (though a few have raised an eyebrow at me).

There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit. Int his case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

[Reality Czech]

....

There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit.

Agreed.


In this case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?
Yup, to me the best thing to do with any power/effect is to write it as completely, concisely, and fairly as possible with the intent of preventing the constant need for judgement calls. We all know you'll never preclude all questions, but the better you write the power the less time and effort you waste during play adjudicating effects.

[Dust Raven]

Have your 4 year old daughter try to drive the air out of your lungs and tell me how much it hurts.

The SFX of Ogre's power is fine. It's the build that is faulty.

It should hurt Joe Martial Artist, but it should barely bother Joe Tank.

The fact that the game mechanics of that power has it hurt Joe Tank as much as it hurts Joe Martial Artist and it doesn't bother Joe Scuba Diver at all is why it is faulty.

The power in no way shape or form matches the SFX. It is just a "cool game mechanic idea" on an attack that avoids PD, but shouldn't.


Now, a SFX that matches the power might be a gas attack that affects anyone who does not need to breathe. But, not a bear hug. Bear hugs are physical attacks and physical attacks generally should be minimized by physical defenses.

I disagree completely. The only thing that's "wrong" about the mechanic of this build is what's listed as the defense of the NND. As I've said before, I never under any circumstances assume what's listed there is an absolute, exhaustive, complete, exclusive list of keeps someone from taking damage. It's an example, based upon SFX, and nothing more. This goes double, if not triple, for published characters. Due to space limitations on a character sheet (especially a published one), I assume a complete list of what may protect someone isn't something you'd have room to list.

It's recently come to my attention, or at least my sudden realization, other people don't play this way.

To specifically respond to your note about it affecting Joe Martial Artist but not Joe Brick... why? I don't get why they should be treated differently. Unless noted otherwise, they both have lungs and need to breathe air, and that air can be forcefully shoved out with enough force. Ogre has a Power stating he has that level of force. You might be thinking that a really strong character will have the physical strength to keep his lungs full of air, but keep in mind that Ogre is also a "really strong" character. Also, as you yourself noted, it doesn't take a lot of strength to knock the wind from someone in a painful way (4 year old daughter vs adult).

[Dust Raven]

Touche
:thumbup:

I've played enough judo that I know it can be painful to be crushed, but I alos know that the effect is not an NND: if I'm expecting it and tense, then it doesn't hurt so much, and if the guy is a lot smaller, ditto.
Tensing=Block Maneuver. Done.
Larger Than You Target=Since when does size matter in Hero? (this is a different flaw in the rules and actually has nothing to do with Ogre, size really doesn't matter in Hero unless the GM invents campaign specific rules for it).


This was why my example above had two characetrs with the same STUN total but wildly different DEF and STR.

Now what is 'crush proof'?

I mean Ogre would have a job crushing Grond, at least with any speed, and the fact that the defence is poorly constructed is my central thesis. If Defender can't be crushed with his helmet on but can with his helmet off then the power makes no sense at all, and if he can't be crushed with his helmet off then presumably sufficient DEF and/or STR should be a sufficient defence (although NND doesn't work like that, it doesn't do thresholds)
Sufficent DEF and/or STR can have lots of SFX. Lets say you defined this Bear Hug maneuver defense being PD of X. Okay, so I have a character with a PD of 2X, but the SFX of his PD is "tough, flexible skin" rather than hard armor or an inflexible skeletal structure. By all rights, he should be affected by the bear hug but isn't because he has enough PD. That doesn't fix it. Same thing with STR values. It just doesn't work. The only people who won't be affected are people who can't have air forced from their lungs, or otherwise wouldn't be hurt by it if it happened. And there's your defense, it's just phrased poorly (or incompletely) on Ogre's character sheet.


Ogre can. Ogre has to.
Has to what? Has to squeeze and let go, or has to grab and hold his target in order to squeeze at all? In either case, no, Ogre has a choice. He can do either (unless the GM has for some reason banned MPAs, then it's the GMs fault the Power doesn't work as designed, not whoever wrote up Ogre).

Note: After looking up the actual character sheet and rereading it, it does say Must Follow Grab, so he does have to grab and hold. Why was someone saying this didn't make sense then? There's also a specific limitation that if he fails his Skill Roll the target takes full damage... he can accidentally crush the kitten. What the hell is everyone arguing over the build vs SFX on this one for? It's all right there!!!



There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit. Int his case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

The rule works the same in all circumstances. If the target has the defense, he takes no damage. If the target lacks the defense, he takes damage. The only problem here is a disagreement on what the defense is, or isn't. Just remember Ogre is a published character, and there is limited space available for printing. Of course, I'll admit the possibility the writer didn't think things through or just jumped to an incomplete conclusion... but keep in mind throughout all of this we are really arguing over the validity of single phrase on a character sheet.

[KarinsDad]

To specifically respond to your note about it affecting Joe Martial Artist but not Joe Brick... why? I don't get why they should be treated differently. Unless noted otherwise, they both have lungs and need to breathe air, and that air can be forcefully shoved out with enough force. Ogre has a Power stating he has that level of force.

That is the key. You yourself has stated it.

"With enough force."

I do not think Ogre has enough force to do this to Grond at the same level as he does for a normal person. The problem with the NND game mechanic is that it affects both types of characters equally.

Ogre probably has enough force to do it to Joe Martial Artist, but Joe Brick should be more resistant to it and Grond even more so. Joe Scuba Diver should be crushed by such an attack by Ogre, not be immune to it.

But as written, Grond and Joe Brick both take 6D6 and Joe Scuba Diver takes nothing.

And changing the defenses (without listing PD or potentially rPD as one of them) does not change this.

The SFX does not match the power writeup. PD should defend against this SFX.

Strong opponents and heavily armored opponents should take little or no damage from a fast bear hug intended to drive the air out of the lungs.

A fast bear hug really sounds little different than a normal grab and squeeze.

This writeup is just about avoiding PD and has nothing to do with the SFX of a bear hug.


One of the problems with Hero is that just because an idea can be thought of does not mean that it is a good idea. Especially when the Game Mechanic drives the SFX and not the other way around.


A different way to handle this is to give Ogre extra HHA damage only usable to squeeze. That would match this SFX a lot closer than an NND. The NND build is just trying to take advantage of game mechanics to avoid PD. IMO.

[Dust Raven]

That is the key. You yourself has stated it.

"With enough force."

I do not think Ogre has enough force to do this to Grond at the same level as he does for a normal person. The problem with the NND game mechanic is that it affects both types of characters equally.
I think he does have enough force. He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force.


Ogre probably has enough force to do it to Joe Martial Artist, but Joe Brick should be more resistant to it and Grond even more so. Joe Scuba Diver should be crushed by such an attack by Ogre, not be immune to it.

But as written, Grond and Joe Brick both take 6D6 and Joe Scuba Diver takes nothing.

And changing the defenses (without listing PD or potentially rPD as one of them) does not change this.

The SFX does not match the power writeup. PD should defend against this SFX.
I disagree. What you are basically saying is that you think NND shouldn't be on there. Then again, maybe you just think what Ogre is doing is impossible. So what? His level of physical strength is impossible. Why stop there? He's in a world where people have impossible powers. But that's just with your own assumption what he's doing is impossible (hurting someone without causing lasting damage by forcing air out their lungs). I think it is possible... it's happened to me. Maybe we just have different life experiences.

As far as the SCUBA diver, no he should not be crushed, but he should take damage. He did buy his LS with a Limitation after all. This would qualify as circumstance where his LS doesn't work/doesn't protect him.


Strong opponents and heavily armored opponents should take little or no damage from a fast bear hug intended to drive the air out of the lungs.

A fast bear hug really sounds little different than a normal grab and squeeze.

This writeup is just about avoiding PD and has nothing to do with the SFX of a bear hug.
Well, you are free to make those rulings on a case by case basis when you're the GM. That doesn't make the write-up invalid. All it does is make it something that you personally don't like and wouldn't allow in your game.



One of the problems with Hero is that just because an idea can be thought of does not mean that it is a good idea. Especially when the Game Mechanic drives the SFX and not the other way around.
Actually, while there are a few problems with the Hero System, this isn't one of them. This is Hero System's greatest asset. You can have good ideas and bad ideas when playing any game, but it's not the rules that decide which ideas get used, it's the players. What makes this an asset in the Hero System is that the players have the choice to allow new ideas into the game, be they good or bad, because the rules won't tell you which is which (because what is good for you may be bad for me, and vice versa).


A different way to handle this is to give Ogre extra HHA damage only usable to squeeze. That would match this SFX a lot closer than an NND. The NND build is just trying to take advantage of game mechanics to avoid PD. IMO.

Exactly. In your opinion. My opinion differs. I think it matches the SFX exactly and even think you could remove a number of Limitations from it and it'll work even better, matching the SFX even closer.

[KarinsDad]

I disagree. What you are basically saying is that you think NND shouldn't be on there.


Not for that SFX.



Actually, while there are a few problems with the Hero System, this isn't one of them. This is Hero System's greatest asset.

No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

This is a game system weakness.

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.

If SFX drove the game system as much as game mechanics (as opposed to just game mechanics) where characters could still have exceptions to those SFX (i.e. purchased with advantages or limitations, e.g. Iceman could have super cold ice armor that never melts), it would minimize the "weird stuff" that sometimes happens in a game.


Just because something can be built in a given way (stretching one's suspension of disbelief) does not mean it should be.

You yourself admitted that the defenses for the NND were wrong. But, you somewhat contradict yourself with your own opinion because you also stated "He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force." According to you, if he buys it on his character sheet, than he has it. So if you can disagree on the defenses of the power even though it is written on his character sheet and hence, he has that power as written, than I can disagree with the NND aspect of the power.

Otherwise, the "he has it written on his character sheet" argument of yours should take priority over your opinion that the defenses are wrong.


I only allow game mechanics that closely match a SFX, not ones that seem to jar with the SFX. I do not allow every possible game mechanic for a given SFX, just because the game system allows for it. For me, SFX is the key, not game mechanics. It appears that you do not hold that same opinion.

[Checkmate]

I disagree that the creators thought Oger needed an NND so the fabricated the SFX. I think they looked at Martial Arts (that no one seemed to have a problem with) and saw that choke hold is an NND and it's basically the same SFX.

Now I've heard the argument that you're actually pinching off the artey, and that's why it's an NND, but let's analyze that argument for a moment shall we?

What does closing off that artery actually do?
Well it stops the flow of blood to the brain.
Why do we need blood to the brain?
Well blood carries oxygen to the brain cells
(If you're thinkin' you probably know where I'm going with this)
And where does the blood get this oxygen it carries to the brain?
From the lungs of course.
And if the lungs don't have oxygen in them?
Well then the blood can't deliver it to the brain.
And how is this different than pinching off the artery?
...

[casualplayer]

I disagree completely. The only thing that's "wrong" about the mechanic of this build is what's listed as the defense of the NND. As I've said before, I never under any circumstances assume what's listed there is an absolute, exhaustive, complete, exclusive list of keeps someone from taking damage. It's an example, based upon SFX, and nothing more. This goes double, if not triple, for published characters. Due to space limitations on a character sheet (especially a published one), I assume a complete list of what may protect someone isn't something you'd have room to list.

If the power is poorly defined, some will figure it out on their own, some will come to the Boards to discuss it and some will go play a different game. Tolerating slop character creation is inviting people to go elsewhere. The topical information doesn't have to be immediately available on the character write-up, but it should be somewhere in concrete terms.

I don't have the Ogre write-up, so forgive me if I misrepresent. The power is supposed to be a super-Heimlich? Then there should be more to it than the No Range NND that has been referred to, including more expansive defenses. Some defenses that come to mind are alien anatomy, hard lung covering, size differential disallowing the bearhug, no need for oxygen, malleable physique and winning a STR roll contest with Ogre. The attack should probably have to follow a successful Grab, maybe even two, maybe even a Grab/Crush. MPA would allow ol' Ogre to do all this in a single phase.

Dealing out more NND damage than being thrust into vacuum seems a little suspect also. As far as sfx indicating that BODY should start being dealt after STUN is exhausted, like suffocation works, there really should be an intermediate step between NND and NND Does BODY to represent this ability.

Could Ogre successfully use this attack on Gargantua? On Hummingbird? On Leech? On ZigZag? On Black Paladin? Inquiring minds want to know.

[KarinsDad]

And how is this different than pinching off the artery?
...

In real world terms, it's different because blood has oxygen in it, even if someone is not breathing. You pinch off the blood supply from the artery and very little if any blood at all gets to the brain.

You prevent someone from breathing, their brain still gets a blood flow and hence an oxygen flow, even if that blood starts losing more and more oxygen over time.

[Dust Raven]

Not for that SFX.



No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

This is a game system weakness.

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.
Play something else then. The Hero System is not for you. Sorry, but that's just the way it is based on what you've just said. The Hero System is about choices. If you don't want to worry about such things, you don't worry. If you want to play an Iceman like character but not melt, you can do so. If you don't, you don't have to. You seem to want to force players to play a melting Iceman whether or not they want to. That's not the Hero System way.


You yourself admitted that the defenses for the NND were wrong. But, you somewhat contradict yourself with your own opinion because you also stated "He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force." According to you, if he buys it on his character sheet, than he has it. So if you can disagree on the defenses of the power even though it is written on his character sheet and hence, he has that power as written, than I can disagree with the NND aspect of the power.

Otherwise, the "he has it written on his character sheet" argument of yours should take priority over your opinion that the defenses are wrong.
I think I know more about my priorities than you do. Also, I did not say the defense for the NND was wrong, I said it may have been poorly conceived or written, and it definitely not exclusive or exhaustive. At best what is listed is an example and nothing more.


I only allow game mechanics that closely match a SFX, not ones that seem to jar with the SFX. I do not allow every possible game mechanic for a given SFX, just because the game system allows for it. For me, SFX is the key, not game mechanics. It appears that you do not hold that same opinion.

Well, no, I hold the same opinion, I'm just not as anal-retentive about it as you are, or I'm otherwise more flexible. I realize there is more than one genre, and more than one setting in each genre. I also realize that different players have different tastes and some are willing to put more work into arbitrating the rules of their games, while others are not. So play your way. Your way may not allow for something like the Bearhug maneuver as presented in the Ultimate Brick, but that doesn't mean your way is the only way.

[Dust Raven]

If the power is poorly defined, some will figure it out on their own, some will come to the Boards to discuss it and some will go play a different game. Tolerating slop character creation is inviting people to go elsewhere. The topical information doesn't have to be immediately available on the character write-up, but it should be somewhere in concrete terms.Well, the description of Bearhug is elsewhere in the Ultimate Brick, and it does include a full description of the effect, though it doesn't expand on the mechanical defenses of it. I suppose it should, but it's for a Champions character in the Champions Universe campaign setting, and really should be treated as such. Doing otherwise would be like me judging any of your (or KarinsDad's or anyone else's) characters by the standards of my own campaign world. Apparently the Champions Universe has a very lax requirement on the description of Powers, at least for the defense of an NND. My own campaigns have a different requirement, or at least a different way of handling how to list an NND's defenses. When using Ogre in my campaign, I adjust him to my needs.

Out of curiosity, does anyone who's not using the Champions Universe setting for Champions use character publishes for the Champions Universe unmodified?


I don't have the Ogre write-up, so forgive me if I misrepresent. The power is supposed to be a super-Heimlich? Then there should be more to it than the No Range NND that has been referred to, including more expansive defenses. Some defenses that come to mind are alien anatomy, hard lung covering, size differential disallowing the bearhug, no need for oxygen, malleable physique and winning a STR roll contest with Ogre. The attack should probably have to follow a successful Grab, maybe even two, maybe even a Grab/Crush. MPA would allow ol' Ogre to do all this in a single phase.

Dealing out more NND damage than being thrust into vacuum seems a little suspect also. As far as sfx indicating that BODY should start being dealt after STUN is exhausted, like suffocation works, there really should be an intermediate step between NND and NND Does BODY to represent this ability.

Could Ogre successfully use this attack on Gargantua? On Hummingbird? On Leech? On ZigZag? On Black Paladin? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think the SFX may be debatable here. I've stated what I think it is, or at least my excuse for why it causes so much damage. Then again, I'm the only one on these boards who's said something matching the effect being simulated has happened to them. Granted, it wasn't by someone with the STR of Ogre, so I can imagine that someone with that could do it had have it hurt a LOT more. Maybe I'm unique in that. I dunno.

As far as who can be affected and who can't, I'll have to look up each character and I don't have CKC with me at work. Maybe later today.

[Sean Waters]

Tensing=Block Maneuver. Done.
Larger Than You Target=Since when does size matter in Hero? (this is a different flaw in the rules and actually has nothing to do with Ogre, size really doesn't matter in Hero unless the GM invents campaign specific rules for it).

Oh tosh, context is everything. Grond tenses and blocks, Pulsar tenses and smears. one sfx does not fit all.

Size does not matter in Hero, it is a reality thing. Hero trusts you to build Hero Characters that are generally stronger if they are bigger. This breaks down a lot in superhero games, but that does not undermine the underlyign point, which I made badly: a strong character is not going to suffer crushing or squeezing damage from a weak one, and Hero does NOT do: NND - can only crush characters with less than 50 STR.



Sufficent DEF and/or STR can have lots of SFX. Lets say you defined this Bear Hug maneuver defense being PD of X. Okay, so I have a character with a PD of 2X, but the SFX of his PD is "tough, flexible skin" rather than hard armor or an inflexible skeletal structure. By all rights, he should be affected by the bear hug but isn't because he has enough PD. That doesn't fix it. Same thing with STR values. It just doesn't work. The only people who won't be affected are people who can't have air forced from their lungs, or otherwise wouldn't be hurt by it if it happened. And there's your defense, it's just phrased poorly (or incompletely) on Ogre's character sheet.

Official builds should think it all the way through. That is my only point here. There really is no excuse for slapdash approaches: can't readily be squeezed by someone of Ogre's strength or doesn't matter if he is (GM call).

That does it, no problems with space. Even then I don't like it: it is rubbish - having the air forced from your lungs for a few seconds is nothing mre than we all do every few seconds. it is just a poor excuse for an NND.

Of course that does not work well with the NND rules - it works on all or nothing, not thresholds, so you can't build it that way, and have it make sense, and if you can't have it make sense you should not build it al all.

End

Of

Story.




Has to what? Has to squeeze and let go, or has to grab and hold his target in order to squeeze at all? In either case, no, Ogre has a choice. He can do either (unless the GM has for some reason banned MPAs, then it's the GMs fault the Power doesn't work as designed, not whoever wrote up Ogre).

Note: After looking up the actual character sheet and rereading it, it does say Must Follow Grab, so he does have to grab and hold. Why was someone saying this didn't make sense then? There's also a specific limitation that if he fails his Skill Roll the target takes full damage... he can accidentally crush the kitten. What the hell is everyone arguing over the build vs SFX on this one for? It's all right there!!!

Perhaps because not everyone has seent he build and it was not quoted in full?

Still doesn't make sense, but at least it makes less nonsense this way.





The rule works the same in all circumstances. If the target has the defense, he takes no damage. If the target lacks the defense, he takes damage. The only problem here is a disagreement on what the defense is, or isn't. Just remember Ogre is a published character, and there is limited space available for printing. Of course, I'll admit the possibility the writer didn't think things through or just jumped to an incomplete conclusion... but keep in mind throughout all of this we are really arguing over the validity of single phrase on a character sheet.

No, the principle we are arguing about is a responsibility to create appropriate sfx and builds. That's important - vital - if a game like Hero is to work.

[Dust Raven]

No, the principle we are arguing about is a responsibility to create appropriate sfx and builds. That's important - vital - if a game like Hero is to work.

I'm not disagree with this. I'm absolutely agreeing with it 100%. All I'm saying is that the Bearhug from the Ultimate Brick makes sense, realisticlly and super-realistically. This isn't simple crushing or squeezing. If it was, it would wouldn't have been bought at all because all characters can squeeze or crush after they Grab someone. This is something else, but I don't see anyone here treating it as something else. You included seem to think this is just a clumsy grab and crush thing when it isn't. It isn't even a "super Heimlich" type thing. It's a controlled and deliberate pressure applied to the chest which forces the lungs the expel air in a highly painful way. It's a perfectly valid build, and it perfectly fits the SFX.

I don't even know why I'm defending this build anyway. It shouldn't be on Ogre. Many other bricks it would be fine on, but not Ogre. Ogre is too stupid to apply this type of technique correctly, or even think of trying it. But that's a character concept versus powers, not a sfx vs mechanic thing.

[Checkmate]

Not for that SFX.



No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

This is a game system weakness.

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.

If SFX drove the game system as much as game mechanics (as opposed to just game mechanics) where characters could still have exceptions to those SFX (i.e. purchased with advantages or limitations, e.g. Iceman could have super cold ice armor that never melts), it would minimize the "weird stuff" that sometimes happens in a game.


Just because something can be built in a given way (stretching one's suspension of disbelief) does not mean it should be.

I have to go with Dust-Raven on this. I think you're playing the wrong game. This game was designed specifically NOT to do what you want it to do. You consider this a weakness, everyone else just realizes it's what the original creators had in mind.

A better game for what you want may be Fuzion. It had all the powers spelled out and you could easily determine what SFX effets what other SFX and how. You had things like Electrical Blast, Fire Blast, Ice Blast etc.

Suffocation as an attack has always been an NND. Look at Martial Arts, Choke Hold is an NND. Look in USPD, Remove air from lungs is an NND. It's how the "Powers That Be" at HERO have decided to do these types of attacks. You don't agree with it, it doesn't work for you, great change it in your game.

[Sean Waters]

I disagree that the creators thought Oger needed an NND so the fabricated the SFX. I think they looked at Martial Arts (that no one seemed to have a problem with) and saw that choke hold is an NND and it's basically the same SFX.

Now I've heard the argument that you're actually pinching off the artey, and that's why it's an NND, but let's analyze that argument for a moment shall we?

What does closing off that artery actually do?
Well it stops the flow of blood to the brain.
Why do we need blood to the brain?
Well blood carries oxygen to the brain cells
(If you're thinkin' you probably know where I'm going with this)
And where does the blood get this oxygen it carries to the brain?
From the lungs of course.
And if the lungs don't have oxygen in them?
Well then the blood can't deliver it to the brain.
And how is this different than pinching off the artery?
...

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

Count to 12, slowly.

Breathe normally again.

Did you take 6d6 NND?

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

Stop the bloodflow to the brain and you'll be unconscious in seconds, but the blood acts as a resevoir of oxygen for the body that can keep you alive and conscious, even without air in your lungs, for a surprisingly long time.

The sfx simply do not work.

Change it to a jugular pinch and we are cooking with gas. Even then the defence ought to be a rigid neck protection, or casual strength equal to Ogre's full strength (but you can't do that with NND), or non-standard biology or physiology.

I am of the opinion that for Hero to work, the sfx have to be consistent and appropriate.


.......................I don't even know why I'm defending this build anyway. It shouldn't be on Ogre. Many other bricks it would be fine on, but not Ogre. Ogre is too stupid to apply this type of technique correctly, or even think of trying it. But that's a character concept versus powers, not a sfx vs mechanic thing.

Sometimes I don't see the wood for the trees :) This is a very good point: Orge is a slugger, and whilst that is a problem of a different type, it is still sfx related: the power has to be related to the concept through sfx as much as it has to be expressed in game through sfx.

[Dust Raven]

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

Count to 12, slowly.

Breathe normally again.

Did you take 6d6 NND?

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here. Someone with the Bearhug power isn't picking you up, holding a stethoscope to your chest and asking you to breathe out, then forgetting to ask you to breathe in again. He's forcing the air out at high speed, which causes pain/discomfort/shock (to the point of taking a lot of STUN).

[KarinsDad]

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here. Someone with the Bearhug power isn't picking you up, holding a stethoscope to your chest and asking you to breathe out, then forgetting to ask you to breathe in again. He's forcing the air out at high speed, which causes pain/discomfort/shock (to the point of taking a lot of STUN).

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here.

Ogre does this to Grond and Grond laughs at him.

Ogre does this to a normal and his chest does not cave in.

Oh, I forgot. This is a game mechanic driving the SFX, not the other way around. Nevermind. Anything's possible if one ignores the SFX and just writes up a stupid game mechanic.

[OddHat]

Speaking as a moderator, the first rule in the ROC is respect each other. The tone of some posts in this thread is becoming unnecessarily personal. Please keep things friendly and civil, or appropriate action will be taken.

[Dust Raven]

Speaking as a moderator, the first rule in the ROC is respect each other. The tone of some posts in this thread is becoming unnecessarily personal. Please keep things friendly and civil, or appropriate action will be taken.

Appropriate action has been taken. I'm done here.

:mad:

[feralucce]

Thank you for that, moderator... I was beginning to think that snark was out of season

[Checkmate]

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

Count to 12, slowly.

Breathe normally again.

Did you take 6d6 NND?

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

Except you can't breath out and totally empty your lungs, so we'll never know. However, try this: empty out as much of lungs as you can, then jump off the kitchen counter and do a belly flop on the back of a chair, to simulate a couple of strong hands thrusting into your solarplexes, then measure amount of STUN taken.

But even that isn't the real point: NND's are the way HERO does suffocation attacks. It's in the USPD under air control, which has nothing to do with Ogre needing an NND.

[GAZZA]

So therefore, how should suffocation attacks be done? Assuming that it is felt there is a problem with them, how do we improve this?

Some sort of Suppress for STUN, and Drain on REC, perhaps? (Aside: I assume if I drain STUN I'm draining the current value instead of the maximum, so your normal REC recovers it - is this wrong? I hope so, because if I'm right about this Drain STUN is a spectacularly inefficient power). That way you're slowly losing your ability to stay conscious (thanks to the silly but RAW way you can stack Suppresses) as well as finding it harder to take a breath (which REC seems to represent, as a sort of "second wind").

Does that look a little better?

[Hugh Neilson]

Suffocation is an ability that needs to be reviewed. The ability to force someone into the drowning rules isn't worth the cost of a Suppress to wipe out all REC and the 1 point per phase END drain. It's a pretty common ability in the source material, but poorly effected in the game.

Admittedly, part of this is that gamers won't want to play out the extended time period required for a suffocating character to finally keel over. It's a tough ability to translate from the source material to a game environment.

[Dust Raven]

To force someone to suffer the effects of Suffocation as per how it's described under Drowning, I'd use Change Environment (no breathable air), perhaps with only a 1 hex area and a -0 Accurate if it's to affect a single target. Combine this a Continuous TK Affects Whole Target, Cannot Cause Damage attack in an MPA and you can even simulate them being forced to stand there and choke helplessly for a while.

[pinecone]

To force someone to suffer the effects of Suffocation as per how it's described under Drowning, I'd use Change Environment (no breathable air), perhaps with only a 1 hex area and a -0 Accurate if it's to affect a single target. Combine this a Continuous TK Affects Whole Target, Cannot Cause Damage attack in an MPA and you can even simulate them being forced to stand there and choke helplessly for a while.

I'd agree...CE is the way I'd aproach "I fill the room with CO2" all the way to "He can't breath, because of X"...

[Dust Raven]

I'd agree...CE is the way I'd aproach "I fill the room with CO2" all the way to "He can't breath, because of X"...

Yeah. Not breathing is pretty much a non-effect in combat anyway, unless the combat is prolonged to two Turns or more, and even then only if the character normally uses a lot of END. I do like the effect of making people hold still and make uncontrollable choking sounds though. It just seems to much a part of the sfx of making someone not breathe.

[Sean Waters]

Except you can't breath out and totally empty your lungs, so we'll never know. However, try this: empty out as much of lungs as you can, then jump off the kitchen counter and do a belly flop on the back of a chair, to simulate a couple of strong hands thrusting into your solarplexes, then measure amount of STUN taken.

But even that isn't the real point: NND's are the way HERO does suffocation attacks. It's in the USPD under air control, which has nothing to do with Ogre needing an NND.

Being the way that it is done does not mean that it is a good way to do it.

I tell you what: you do a belly flop onto the back of a chair and tell me if it did any Body damage. Or try the same thing with a suit of armour on - no damage at all.

The point is that it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

Suffocation in Hero (i.e. looking at teh suffocation rules) is just not quick enough to be meaningful in terms of damage taken during the average combat. The biggest single effect is that it stops you taking recoveries, which should probably be done with a REC adjustment, to be fair to all concerned.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd like to see an official adder for Change Environment, Entangle and Force Wall to prevent the target(s) from breathing. The classic comic book examples, to me, are the guys who remove the air from the area (CE), block the character's ability to breathe with a substance (Entangle) or create a force wall (Sue Richards comes to mind) cutting off the air.

I think the best suggestion I've ever seen in this regard was to base the cost on suppressing "Life Support: Oxygen Rich Environment breathing". By the time advantages and limitations were pulled in, I think a 10 or 15 point adder seemed about right. That also feels right for the effectiveness of the ability.

[pinecone]

I'd like to see an official adder for Change Environment, Entangle and Force Wall to prevent the target(s) from breathing. The classic comic book examples, to me, are the guys who remove the air from the area (CE), block the character's ability to breathe with a substance (Entangle) or create a force wall (Sue Richards comes to mind) cutting off the air.

I think the best suggestion I've ever seen in this regard was to base the cost on suppressing "Life Support: Oxygen Rich Environment breathing". By the time advantages and limitations were pulled in, I think a 10 or 15 point adder seemed about right. That also feels right for the effectiveness of the ability.

Yeah, or in the meantime, stick a CE: No air! To the force wall and Viola! A wacky effect...

[Dust Raven]

Suffocation in Hero (i.e. looking at teh suffocation rules) is just not quick enough to be meaningful in terms of damage taken during the average combat. The biggest single effect is that it stops you taking recoveries, which should probably be done with a REC adjustment, to be fair to all concerned.

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain, but the latter also HURTS LIKE HELL.

I also still insist that while there is nothing wrong with the write-up of the power, Ogre is simply lacks the finesse, intelligence and restraint necessary to pull something like this off. He should have instead:

Oops: HA: +8d6, HA, NNC (typically when Ogre is trying to be delicate).

[Checkmate]

Being the way that it is done does not mean that it is a good way to do it.
Actually it is the absoulte crux of my argument.

People have claimed (not saying you, you may or may not have made this claim) that the power we "reversed engineered" saying that the creators said "We need to give Ogre an NND, what can we use to justify this?". I disagree with that line of reasoning, because a brick crushing the air out of someone's lungs is very "in genre". This is the way HERO has decided to do this effect. I believe if, for some reason, HERO said a 1d6HKA was the effect of removing air from lungs, Ogre would have that. I believe they simply said, "We want Ogre to be able crush the air out of lungs, what have we used for that?" as opposed to what others think happened "We want Ogre to have an NND how can we justify that?"

Whether you agree with it or not is totally up to you, change what you don't like, but like Dust-Raven and I said in my falling from a tree example, having the air forced out of your lungs by impact HURTS, so I'm all right with the NND.

[Sean Waters]

Yeah, or in the meantime, stick a CE: No air! To the force wall and Viola! A wacky effect...

Doesn't work.

CE: Harmful environment

You build the harm with points: damage, falling over unless you DEX roll, whatever. you can't just say: right, I've changed the environment, you're all now breeathing chlorine gas and you are DEAD!. Ditto removing air. It sounds like it should work, there have even been writeups doing at that way. Clearly noone read the rule book though.

[Sean Waters]

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain, but the latter also HURTS LIKE HELL.

I also still insist that while there is nothing wrong with the write-up of the power, Ogre is simply lacks the finesse, intelligence and restraint necessary to pull something like this off. He should have instead:

Oops: HA: +8d6, HA, NNC (typically when Ogre is trying to be delicate).

Insist away. What you describe though is being hit or crushed hard enough to overcome your muscle and the structural integrity of your ribcage, and thus force the air from your lungs. That is a normal attack, a grab and squeeze. I'm not insisting or anything, I just think that is the way it is. It is the pressure on your ribcage that hurts, not the air leaving, just like it would hurt if I grabbed your arm and squeezed hard enough.

[Sean Waters]

Actually it is the absoulte crux of my argument.

People have claimed (not saying you, you may or may not have made this claim) that the power we "reversed engineered" saying that the creators said "We need to give Ogre an NND, what can we use to justify this?". I disagree with that line of reasoning, because a brick crushing the air out of someone's lungs is very "in genre". This is the way HERO has decided to do this effect. I believe if, for some reason, HERO said a 1d6HKA was the effect of removing air from lungs, Ogre would have that. I believe they simply said, "We want Ogre to be able crush the air out of lungs, what have we used for that?" as opposed to what others think happened "We want Ogre to have an NND how can we justify that?"

Whether you agree with it or not is totally up to you, change what you don't like, but like Dust-Raven and I said in my falling from a tree example, having the air forced out of your lungs by impact HURTS, so I'm all right with the NND.

It probably was me: I'm cynical like that. :D Still, better to think of people as cynical and manipulative than the alternative. More polite, anyway.

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or, to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?

You see, I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.

[Checkmate]

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or, to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?
They (they being the powers that be at HERO), thought it was the best way to simulate this effect, and to be honest, I don't see another way. As with anything, if by the SFX you don't think it should effect someone, then as a GM don't let it. Allow the SFX to have some meaning in the game as opposed to all mechanics.


You see, I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.
But I've taken falls from equal heights and taken no STUN at all. Most falls from this height didn't slow me down at all. It was the air being forced out that cause the dizzyness, hyperventilation and "STUN" damage.

[Dust Raven]

Insist away. What you describe though is being hit or crushed hard enough to overcome your muscle and the structural integrity of your ribcage, and thus force the air from your lungs. That is a normal attack, a grab and squeeze. I'm not insisting or anything, I just think that is the way it is. It is the pressure on your ribcage that hurts, not the air leaving, just like it would hurt if I grabbed your arm and squeezed hard enough.

I'm certain you'd agree with me if it'd ever actually happened to you. :D Really. ;)

Regardless, this isn't a simple matter of applying pressure to the chest cavity. This is a quickly applied pressure, deliberately angled to push upon your diaphragm, compressing your lungs faster than you can safely exhale (which is where the pain comes in, which in this case is being translated into STUN loss). Your muscles won't help unless you are actually using them at the exact moment the pressure is applied for the exact purpose of resisting the pressure, and then only if these specific muscles are stronger then the pressure (and chances are, any 10 STR character's arm strength is greater than any other 10 STR character's diaphragm). Even then, the idea of this maneuver is to take advantage of the fact the target breathes, applying it during the start of an exhale when the target is most vulnerable and cannot easily resist the pressure (taking advantage of the body's natural breathing rhythm). The ribcage isn't actually involved here, unless the maneuver is applied incorrectly or inaccurately (which would then be a normal grab and crush, hence the RSR Limitation on the Power). In some circumstances, the players/authors may not care about the specifics involved and just say the attacker grabs, squeezes (doesn't matter where) and the target takes some damage unless he doesn't need air in the first place. I don't think my far more complicated, yet completely accurate, description is necessary, but it's there for the taking if anyone's interested in a mental picture of how this would really work.

[Dust Raven]

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or, to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?
The amount of STUN, the actual number, is the same, the percentage of STUN loss is less for the Hulk than is is for Joe Normal. Sure, Hulk will feel the pain, but not care as much. Hell, it probably won't even be Stunned. Joe Normal is likely to pass out from the pain or at least be completely incapacitated for the next several seconds.


You see, I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.
But when you fall out of a tree, you don't land on your diaphragm.

[Hugh Neilson]

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain, but the latter also HURTS LIKE HELL.

Yet, under the suffocation rules, the former will eventually kill the target. Even if Ogre maintains his hold and keeps on squeezing for an hour, the target (completely unable to draw any air into his lungs) will not take a single point of BOD, because NND's don't do BOD. CONCLUSION: An NND that does not do BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it cannot result in death. An NND: Does BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it will result in death far too rapidly to be realistic.

Therefore, NND Suffocation, whether the "official" way or not, is a poor model, because it does not achieve the effect.

As Sean notes, Change Environment doesn't work due to the rules. hence the theory that an Adder for causing suffocation (ie invoking the already existing drowning/suffocation rules) is the logical way to go.

CE can already do this - you could CE to remove methane gas. A character with Breathe methane, and unable to breathe oxygen, is now unable to breathe. We just need a way to make the character who can breathe oxygen, not methane, suffocate when you CE the air to methane.

[GAZZA]

CONCLUSION: An NND that does not do BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it cannot result in death. An NND: Does BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it will result in death far too rapidly to be realistic.
Technically correct.

However, Ogre is a Champions NPC, which means death is pretty unlikely in any case, so as far as the genre goes it doesn't work out too bad. Of course you could do it like this:

Multipower "Suffocate by squeezing", 60 point reserve, must follow grab
6d6 EB, NND
4d6 EB, NND, Does BODY, only to an unconscious target

But that second slot doesn't strike me as particularly useful. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Multipower "Suffocate by squeezing", 60 point reserve, must follow grab
6d6 EB, NND
4d6 EB, NND, Does BODY, only to an unconscious target

A few issues there. First, a 4d6 NND that does BOD is far too fast for death by suffocation. Even with a 4 SPD, that's 16 BOD per turn on average. A suffocating target only takes one.

Second, if the target is playing possum, the 4d6 attack fails entirely. Even if we only limit the Does BOD advantage, he takes less Stun than he would have from having the air forced from his lungs because Ogre is now trying to kill him?

I supppose one could apply a kludgy Does BOD to 1d6 of the base NND, make it Standard Effect for BOD only, and restruct its damage to 1 BOD per turn, only if the target is unconscious.

Of course, even getting over the KA approach, how come the target who isn't KO'd still has full END? By the book, lack of air affects END first, then STUN. None of these suffocation attacks have reasoned from that effect.

[GAZZA]

Yeah, all good points. Suppress REC, Drain STUN and END. That's probably the way that is most consistent with the suffocation effects described in the main rulebook.

[Sean Waters]

The amount of STUN, the actual number, is the same, the percentage of STUN loss is less for the Hulk than is is for Joe Normal. Sure, Hulk will feel the pain, but not care as much. Hell, it probably won't even be Stunned. Joe Normal is likely to pass out from the pain or at least be completely incapacitated for the next several seconds.

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?



But when you fall out of a tree, you don't land on your diaphragm.


Well, that's the point, isn't it? What hurts is having your diaphragm paralysed, not having air forced out of your lungs, but being unable to breathe becasue the muscle is in spasm. It has happened to me.

It isn't painful as such, but is extremely distressing. I didn't pass out, but I did panic until I could breathe again, and couldn't really concentrate on anything else until then.

The next time it happened I knew what was going on and I did not panic so much.

You can do it by punching someone in the right spot, just below the ribcage, roughly in the centre. Mind you, if they know the punch is coming and tense up, they can avoid the effects.

It is still not sounding like an NND to me.

Finally, a 'true' suffocation power, built with powers, to simulate the rules suffocatin would do this:

1. Supress your REC to 0 for the duration.
2. Cause 1 END damage per (victim) phase, while they still had END.
3. Cause 1d6 STUN damage per every other (victim) phase if they don't have END.
4. Cause 1 BODY damage per victim phase if they have no STUN (or END).

Easy enough to do, but ridiculously expensive for a power that is relatively rubbish at putting someone down in Hero combat.

Also, if you did have a 'suffocation' power it should cost 20 points as the defence (LS: doesn't need to breathe) costs 10, and defences cost less than the attack power. Theoretically, according to the metarules*.




* Not true, but nevermind, eh?

[KarinsDad]

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?


Precisely.


And actually, the writeup of Ogre in CKC does not have a Bearhug NND listed.

Where is this SFX that people are talking about? Did they just make that up out of whole cloth from the OP's description of the NND? Or is there another writeup of Ogre somewhere else?

[Dust Raven]

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?
Because CHAR B paid for the extra STUN, and is thus equally able to resist the effects as CHAR A. This is not a situation where one character should be better because he has more STR, but where two characters are equal because they have the same pain/shock threshold (not counting what their actual CON values are, which you neglected to mention).


Well, that's the point, isn't it? What hurts is having your diaphragm paralysed, not having air forced out of your lungs, but being unable to breathe becasue the muscle is in spasm. It has happened to me.
Um... no. That's not what I said, and that's not even close to what I described.


You can do it by punching someone in the right spot, just below the ribcage, roughly in the centre. Mind you, if they know the punch is coming and tense up, they can avoid the effects.

It is still not sounding like an NND to me.
Sounds like a Block. Blocks are all or nothing even if the attack isn't.


Finally, a 'true' suffocation power...

Blah, blah blah... whatever. We're not talking about a suffocation power, we're talking about a Power that doesn't affect people who don't breathe.

[Dust Raven]

And actually, the writeup of Ogre in CKC does not have a Bearhug NND listed.

The write-up of Ogre under discussion, as well as the full write-up of the Bearhug maneuver/power, is in The Ultimate Brick, pages 121 and 52 respectively.

[OddHat]

Speaking as a moderator, this thread has been relatively calm and productive recently. Keep the tone friendly.

[Sean Waters]

Because CHAR B paid for the extra STUN, and is thus equally able to resist the effects as CHAR A. This is not a situation where one character should be better because he has more STR, but where two characters are equal because they have the same pain/shock threshold (not counting what their actual CON values are, which you neglected to mention).

What I'm suggesting is that the ability to force air from the lungs very much depends on the strength and defences of the target: if you can't apply enough force to crush them then you cannot force the air out. There is no magic spot that you can hit that empties the lungs, as far as I know, so I am saying that EVEN witht he same stun and CON scored, someone who is stronger and better defended will take less damage, which moves this uot of the realm of the NND to my mind.



Um... no. That's not what I said, and that's not even close to what I described.

I don't think that having the air forced REMOVED from your lungs, however quickly, will hurt. It is how that is accomplished that may hurt.[/quote]



Sounds like a Block. Blocks are all or nothing even if the attack isn't.

Funnily enough I was going to post one of my diatribes against this particular sfx - I mean it makes some contextual sense for some situations: Johnny Iron Guts (a heroic character) takes a punch from One Shot Maguire (another heroic character), tenses his gut and feels very little.

It makes no sense though if the punch is coming from Ogre: Fist of all JIG, no matter how hard he tenses, simply can't make himself tough enough to realistically withstand a blow from Ogre and - even if we agreed he could - what happens tot he considerable knockback - tensing up doesn't make you heavier or better anchored. The same comemnt would apply if the target were GROND - he might be able to tense hard enough to avoid direct damage, but that sfx does not explain where the KB goes...

This is even more relevant if JIG is trying to block a blow from Sammy The Stabber, who uses a knife: JIG has no resistant defences....

So, in my little world, you can use that justification in limited circumstances, but you can't assume that it works as a universal cure all.

[Dust Raven]

What I'm suggesting is that the ability to force air from the lungs very much depends on the strength and defences of the target: if you can't apply enough force to crush them then you cannot force the air out. There is no magic spot that you can hit that empties the lungs, as far as I know, so I am saying that EVEN witht he same stun and CON scored, someone who is stronger and better defended will take less damage, which moves this uot of the realm of the NND to my mind.

I don't think that having the air forced REMOVED from your lungs, however quickly, will hurt. It is how that is accomplished that may hurt.
While there is no "magic" spot, there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).


Funnily enough I was going to post one of my diatribes against this particular sfx - I mean it makes some contextual sense for some situations: Johnny Iron Guts (a heroic character) takes a punch from One Shot Maguire (another heroic character), tenses his gut and feels very little.

It makes no sense though if the punch is coming from Ogre: Fist of all JIG, no matter how hard he tenses, simply can't make himself tough enough to realistically withstand a blow from Ogre and - even if we agreed he could - what happens tot he considerable knockback - tensing up doesn't make you heavier or better anchored. The same comemnt would apply if the target were GROND - he might be able to tense hard enough to avoid direct damage, but that sfx does not explain where the KB goes...

This is even more relevant if JIG is trying to block a blow from Sammy The Stabber, who uses a knife: JIG has no resistant defences....

So, in my little world, you can use that justification in limited circumstances, but you can't assume that it works as a universal cure all.

Well, there's nothing wrong with the Block mechanic. You can do the same thing with the Dodge mechanic. The SFX of my Dodge is that I become temporarily invulnerable. Attacks that actually hit me potentially struck just before the invulnerability took effect or just after it ended. Yeah me and my Dodge. As for the Block, any GM could say "sorry, this is Grond here, even with your mighty muscle tensing techniques you can't resist the force of this blow, but you can still Block if you say you're just getting out of the way.

But let's leave the Block rant for another thread... I think this one is full.

[Sean Waters]

While there is no "magic" spot, there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).

Agreed: but you probably weren't tensing :)

If this were defined as an NND nerve strike (with one of the defences being able to prepare for the blow) I'd have no real problem. Ultimately this is just a matter of personal preference and mine is no more valid than anyone else's.


............................But let's leave the Block rant for another thread... I think this one is full.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to run out of stuff to talk about, would we :D

[Hugh Neilson]

While there is no "magic" spot, there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).

How many other people, of various toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that physical toughness makes no difference? I'm guessing "zero", but "not very many" seems pretty certain.

How many people, of superhuman physical strength and/or toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that even superhuman physical toughness makes no difference? I'm pretty confident "none" would be the answer.

Do you think that, had he jumped on a goldfish, the godfish would have been unharmed? Goldfish, after all, don't have lungs to be forcibly emptied of air (or water), but I suggest the much lower PD and BOD goldfish would still have perished - taking BOD, not just STUN.

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).

[GAZZA]

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).
Lots of 5s? How tough is this 3 year old, anyway? I would guess that the average 3yo is probably packing a STR in the -5 to 0 range, so that means if he hits you he actually does negative damage. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Lots of 5s? How tough is this 3 year old, anyway? I would guess that the average 3yo is probably packing a STR in the -5 to 0 range, so that means if he hits you he actually does negative damage. ;)

Actually, he didn't HIT the target, he jumped on them, so he got the benefit of the Falling Damage rules.

Not that Hero (or any game) is great at covering all the possible variances of damage from mundane sources. Some people slip and fall (head to floor maybe 5 - 6 feet) and are killed by the impact. Others fall from much greater heights and are basically uninjured. Good luck rolling either in Hero terms.

[casualplayer]

Actually, he didn't HIT the target, he jumped on them, so he got the benefit of the Falling Damage rules.

Not that Hero (or any game) is great at covering all the possible variances of damage from mundane sources. Some people slip and fall (head to floor maybe 5 - 6 feet) and are killed by the impact. Others fall from much greater heights and are basically uninjured. Good luck rolling either in Hero terms.

Now ChartMaster simulates this extremely well. You can take E Crit damage from putting on your pants in the morning.

[Hugh Neilson]

Now ChartMaster simulates this extremely well. You can take E Crit damage from putting on your pants in the morning.


Does the potential vary on character gender?

I suppose I should have thought of ChartMaster - the level of detail required to consider all "real world" possibilities (much less the added potential of various forms of fictional universes) means huge amounts of variation must be possible to capture the possibilities. That level of variation does not, at least in my view, make for a good game.

[Dust Raven]

Agreed: but you probably weren't tensing :)

If this were defined as an NND nerve strike (with one of the defences being able to prepare for the blow) I'd have no real problem. Ultimately this is just a matter of personal preference and mine is no more valid than anyone else's.

I would think being able to hit the target when he is unprepared is part of the RSR involved. Wait for the moment when he's not tensing and WHAM! If the Skill Roll fails, the side effects occur, which in this case is doing normal damage to the target.

[Sean Waters]

I would think being able to hit the target when he is unprepared is part of the RSR involved. Wait for the moment when he's not tensing and WHAM! If the Skill Roll fails, the side effects occur, which in this case is doing normal damage to the target.

You may well be right, but I feel I ought to let my opinions have a little lie down in a darkened room: they are getting me into places I'd rather not be at present.

[Dust Raven]

How many other people, of various toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that physical toughness makes no difference? I'm guessing "zero", but "not very many" seems pretty certain.

How many people, of superhuman physical strength and/or toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that even superhuman physical toughness makes no difference? I'm pretty confident "none" would be the answer.

Do you think that, had he jumped on a goldfish, the godfish would have been unharmed? Goldfish, after all, don't have lungs to be forcibly emptied of air (or water), but I suggest the much lower PD and BOD goldfish would still have perished - taking BOD, not just STUN.

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).

Now it's not just you, Hugh, but anyone else who wants to get all anal-retentive in how any particular power that comes from a genre where people shoot lasers we can see, jetpacks that don't burn your butt off and where strongmen can pick up a trawler by the end and have it not break in half...

If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on a goldfish, and I was the GM at the time, I'd first throw the nearest heavy object at the head of whoever is playing Ogre, then rule that attacking a goldfish with this power incurs a -6 penalty to the RSR. Should Ogre pull it off, yeah, the fish is in a coma. If not, then the fish suffers full 60 STR worth of damage.

If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on some with superhuman strength, I wouldn't care. Ogre has superhuman strength. If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on someone of such strength Ogre himself seem like a puny human, I could again impose a penalty to the RSR (those RSRs and Skills in general are funny that way...), or just not care. It doesn't really matter what I do. If there was such a super strong character involved at all, it would definitely be an NPC of some type, possibly define in nature and almost certainly having LS anyway.

The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.

[Sean Waters]

................................

The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.

Oh, I'd promised myself...but...

This is not right. The power works mechanically to do 6d6 stun damage to a target but the sfx described do not fit the power build. I mean, there's no point in arguing, we just don't see eye to eye, but editing the power on the fly ALWAYS works, and having to do that means that there was something wrong with the build in the first place.

Despite the fact that we operate in a game world full of logical inconsistencies and massive leaps of faith, this particular power hurts :) because most of the other problems are just in-game engineering (like the jet pack) or build problems (like visible lasers). It is no excuse not to get everything else internally consistent, and (as much as is possible and desireable - which will always be the sticking point, neh?) conforming with real world experience.

[casualplayer]

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

Thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

Thoughts?

I'd agree that is a good way to match the power decription/sfx with an appropriate power build.

I retain my cynicism about why the origninal 6d6 NND was included in the build though :)

[OddHat]

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

Thoughts?
The official write up uses Requires a Skill Roll; failing the skill roll inflicts damage on the target as a side effect; the risk of doing normal damage instead of an NND is already built into the power as a side effect.

So, if you blow your skill roll, you still get to hurt the target using a side effect. I kind of found that cheap (though it does match the pulling your punch mechanic), and would not approve the build in my campaigns.

[Sean Waters]

Ogre pulling a punch on a normal (or a grab and squeeze) would still cause BODY damage, albeit less than if he hadn't, and Ogre squeezing Grond is not going to do as much damage as the NND.

Ultimately it is a flavour thing, but this particular build/sfx combination, to extend the metaphor, is not to my taste.

[OddHat]

Ogre pulling a punch on a normal (or a grab and squeeze) would still cause BODY damage, albeit less than if he hadn't,

Which arguably is why he spent points on the power instead of using the free maneuver; so he could "pull his squeeze" and avoid causing body.


and Ogre squeezing Grond is not going to do as much damage as the NND.


Agreed, but then he spent points on the NND, but the squeeze came with his STR.

Ultimately it is a flavour thing, but this particular build/sfx combination, to extend the metaphor, is not to my taste.

I agree that the SFX don't quite go with the mechanics; still, HERO is usually a compromise between "realism" in the context of a Cinematic / Comic Book world and playability. If we wanted to be really realistic, we'd be playing "Office Hero", and the closest our characters would get to any sort of combat would be scuffles in the pub, and those would be rare and dangerous.

[Dust Raven]

Oh, I'd promised myself...but...

This is not right. The power works mechanically to do 6d6 stun damage to a target but the sfx described do not fit the power build. I mean, there's no point in arguing, we just don't see eye to eye, but editing the power on the fly ALWAYS works, and having to do that means that there was something wrong with the build in the first place.

I'll have to chalk it up to miscommunication or misunderstanding here. One of us is clearly misunderstanding the other and/or the SFX of the Bearhug power. So far, I know you and I definitely can't agree what the SFX is. Though from what I can tell, if the SFX was how you describe it, then yes, you are absolutely correct in saying the build is wrong. But I don't believe the SFX is as you describe/believe it to be.

[Dust Raven]

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

Thoughts?

Except for your description of the SFX, I agree. It can be simulated by Pulling a Punch. You extra NND needed though (and the accidental use of full STR damage is already incorperated into the power on Ogre's sheet).

[Hugh Neilson]

Now it's not just you, Hugh, but anyone else who wants to get all anal-retentive in how any particular power that comes from a genre where people shoot lasers we can see, jetpacks that don't burn your butt off and where strongmen can pick up a trawler by the end and have it not break in half...

Certainly, we all have different points at which suspension of disbelief kicks in. I don't think that laser should be in a Multipower with "Shoot the laser in his eyes - 12d6 Flash" and "Shoot the laser at his body - 4d6 RKA". How does firing on the eyes do no lasting damage? Similarly, with Ogre, how does crushing the target inflict n physical harm.


If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on a goldfish, and I was the GM at the time, I'd first throw the nearest heavy object at the head of whoever is playing Ogre, then rule that attacking a goldfish with this power incurs a -6 penalty to the RSR. Should Ogre pull it off, yeah, the fish is in a coma. If not, then the fish suffers full 60 STR worth of damage.

What do we think a 3 YO's STR is? Maybe 0? The goldfish is likely in the -30 range. That's a 30 point STR difference between 3 YO and goldfish. I think the 3 YO crushes the goldfish. Ogre has what, a 60 STR? More? yet he can pull this off without crushing a 10 STR normal - no lasting injury whatsoever.


The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.

It works mechanically. I can write 6d6 NND - defense is "need not breathe" on my character sheet with no description whatsoever, and it works mechanically. However, the concept of "Crushing the target with my superhuman STR" does not, at least to many of us, rationally equate to that "6d6 NND, need not breathe", so it does not work conceptually.


Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

Thoughts?

I think this is a far superior mechanical construct. Now, if we had that "Suffocate" power, Ogre could take a suitably limited version and MPA it with a Grab and Crush, either pulling his punch, reducing his damage with the Crush (probably within some limits on the Suffocate power) or what have you and get a much more conceptually sound version of this power.


The official write up uses Requires a Skill Roll; failing the skill roll inflicts damage on the target as a side effect; the risk of doing normal damage instead of an NND is already built into the power as a side effect.

So, if you blow your skill roll, you still get to hurt the target using a side effect. I kind of found that cheap (though it does match the pulling your punch mechanic), and would not approve the build in my campaigns.

I don't like that use of the Side Effect at all. Can I also take a 1d6 Smell Flash, Act 8-, with the Side Effect that the target takes a 30d6 Killing Attack if I miss the activation roll? :nonp: Better yet, let's make the side effect always occur. :idjit:


Which arguably is why he spent points on the power instead of using the free maneuver; so he could "pull his squeeze" and avoid causing body.

This comes back to a question I've often asked of a newly designed character, especially of players who aren't quite into the theory of reasoning from effect. "I understand why you, the player, would like the character to have this ability. I understand why the character would want to have the ability. Now explain, within the parameters of the character's construct and background, how and why the character has obtained this ability."


Agreed, but then he spent points on the NND, but the squeeze came with his STR.

Should he also buy a 12d6 Flash "Poke you in the eyes really hard"? Hey, he spent the points. Maybe EDM, usable against others. "Knock you into next week"? An INT Aid - "Slap some sense into you"? An INT drain - "Slap you silly"? Tramsform - "Hit ou so hard you have to open your fly to talk"?

The points justify the game effect of the ability, but the concept doesn't justify the character having the ability in the first place.


I agree that the SFX don't quite go with the mechanics; still, HERO is usually a compromise between "realism" in the context of a Cinematic / Comic Book world and playability. If we wanted to be really realistic, we'd be playing "Office Hero", and the closest our characters would get to any sort of combat would be scuffles in the pub, and those would be rare and dangerous.

There are degrees of realism and verisimilitude. This one crosses the line, at least for some. For me, a lot of the problem comes back to the lack of an actual "sufocate" power. If we had such an animal, we wouldn't see suffocation effects modeled as a huge NND that KO's a target out far faster than the effects of suffocation, but fails to inflict the other game effects of suffocation.

Reasoning from effect, Suffocate should be a massive REC suppress and a series of tiny attacks draining END, then small NND STUN and finally inflicting NND BOD. But then we cross the point balance threshhold where the cost of the effect is far too great for its game impact. An actual "Suffocate" power, with a reasonable price, would mitigate this problem.

[OddHat]

Should he also buy a 12d6 Flash "Poke you in the eyes really hard"?

Martial Flash is already part of the game, and in a setting without hit locations and disabling effects Flash is a valid way to inflict this kind of blindness, so, yes, this might be OK.


Hey, he spent the points. Maybe EDM, usable against others. "Knock you into next week"? An INT Aid - "Slap some sense into you"? An INT drain - "Slap you silly"? Tramsform - "Hit ou so hard you have to open your fly to talk"?

In a comedy campaign, sure. Any of the above would fit in an Assistant Editors Month game. ;)


The points justify the game effect of the ability, but the concept doesn't justify the character having the ability in the first place.

In some cases I'd agree with this.


An actual "Suffocate" power, with a reasonable price, would mitigate this problem.

And I agree here as well. I'd also like to see more detailed choking rules, and the martial NND using the SFX Choke replaced with something using those rules as a basis.

[Hugh Neilson]

Martial Flash is already part of the game, and in a setting without hit locations and disabling effects Flash is a valid way to inflict this kind of blindness, so, yes, this might be OK.

So poking Joe Normal in the eye with my 60 STR should blind him for a minute or so, but permanent eye damage should be impossible. OK.


In a comedy campaign, sure. Any of the above would fit in an Assistant Editors Month game. ;)

I don't think Ogre's NND was intended for a comedy game.

How about 12d6 Mind Control "If you don't, I'll hit you"? Should Ogre have the ability to bypass any hero's physical defenses, using just the threat of his strength, and force them to do his bidding? This sounds a lot like a PRE attack, but Ogre's NND sounds a lot like a Grab and Crush. I guess if he can customize a "I grab them and squeeze" power to bypass the target's resistance to physical attacks, it should be equally legitimate to customize a "I threaten him with physical violence upon his person" attack to bypass the usual abilities that resist intimidation.


And I agree here as well. I'd also like to see more detailed choking rules, and the martial NND using the SFX Choke replaced with something using those rules as a basis.

If we had real suffocation rules, presumably "Choke" would be a Martial element. It seems reasonable. It also seems reasonable that someone lacking martial arts could still try to achieve a choke hold, much like we have normal and martial versions of Dodge, Block, Strike and Grab.

[OddHat]

So poking Joe Normal in the eye with my 60 STR should blind him for a minute or so, but permanent eye damage should be impossible. OK.

No, but then that's not what I typed. If you're running a campaign where hit location and disabling rules are not in use, Flash with the SFX of "Poke in the eye" is a valid way to simulate that kind of attack, and is already in the rules as Martial Flash. If you're running a campaign where the optional hit location etc. rules are in use, then yes, that's the appropriate course to take.

Hit location for the Eye is -12, and you'd need to do 1/2 the targets BODY to impair sight or more than the target's BODY to blind the character. The BOD multiplier for the eye is 2 1/2, so it's not quite as hard as it sounds. Combat Handbook, p.119 to 121.


I don't think Ogre's NND was intended for a comedy game.

I think any campaign using Ogre as a villain is going to have major camp elements, out and out comedy game or not.


How about 12d6 Mind Control "If you don't, I'll hit you"?

In a comedy game, sure.


Should Ogre have the ability to bypass any hero's physical defenses, using just the threat of his strength, and force them to do his bidding? This sounds a lot like a PRE attack,

You could also do it as Offensive Only PRE.



but Ogre's NND sounds a lot like a Grab and Crush.

Which is how I'd run it.



I guess if he can customize a "I grab them and squeeze" power to bypass the target's resistance to physical attacks, it should be equally legitimate to customize a "I threaten him with physical violence upon his person" attack to bypass the usual abilities that resist intimidation.

If the GM thought that was a simpler way to handle it, it would be that GM's call.

[Dust Raven]

Similarly, with Ogre, how does crushing the target inflict n physical harm.


It works mechanically. I can write 6d6 NND - defense is "need not breathe" on my character sheet with no description whatsoever, and it works mechanically. However, the concept of "Crushing the target with my superhuman STR" does not, at least to many of us, rationally equate to that "6d6 NND, need not breathe", so it does not work conceptually.
Again, that's not the SFX. It is not "crush target" any more than it is "cause target to suffocate". I'd agree with you 100% if it was either of those SFX. But it isn't.

[Hugh Neilson]

You could also do it as Offensive Only PRE.

But that doesn't override the target's natural resistance to presence attacks. Just like a Grab and Crush from Ogre (or any PC wanting a similar attack) wouldn't override the target's natural PD and allow the well-defended target to be damaged easier. Reasoning from effect vs. rationalizing the mechanic.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't think TUB suggests the maneuver, which I believe is written up separate and apart from Ogre, is suggested for camp games only.


Again, that's not the SFX. It is not "crush target" any more than it is "cause target to suffocate". I'd agree with you 100% if it was either of those SFX. But it isn't.

A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm. A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

[OddHat]

But that doesn't override the target's natural resistance to presence attacks. Just like a Grab and Crush from Ogre (or any PC wanting a similar attack) wouldn't override the target's natural PD and allow the well-defended target to be damaged easier. Reasoning from effect vs. rationalizing the mechanic.

Or maybe the guy who can squeeze in such a way as to put his target unconscious no matter how tough the target is, without risk of squeezing so hard as to cause permanent damage, is just cinematicaly good at it.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't think TUB suggests the maneuver, which I believe is written up separate and apart from Ogre, is suggested for camp games only.
If it's not gritty enough for your games, don't use it. As the CU is a world featuring talking super scientist Gorillas and Foxbat and his faithful followers, I'm willing to say the CU has a fair level of camp.


A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm.

He's doing 12d6, not 1024d6, so I'd say that 256 times estimate is incorrect. Ask Steve whether damage is geometric.


A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

Right, it doesn't. That's comic book realism for you.

[Sean Waters]

.......................



Right, it doesn't. That's comic book realism for you.


Not the ones that sell these days.

[OddHat]

Not the ones that sell these days.

I completely disagree. The technobabel explanations of comic book silliness is aimed at an older and slightly better educated audience, and the amount of on camera blood and (generally temporary) death has gone up, but "realism"? In a world of flying men who melt tanks with energy beams from their eyes? Nonsense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Or maybe the guy who can squeeze in such a way as to put his target unconscious no matter how tough the target is, without risk of squeezing so hard as to cause permanent damage, is just cinematicaly good at it.

if he were Dr. Ogre, with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it.

But it's a question of where one draws the line on "realism", and there are likely some who would accept the Ogre NND and balk at some of the abilities in my games as well.


He's doing 12d6, not 1024d6, so I'd say that 256 times estimate is incorrect. Ask Steve whether damage is geometric.

He can lift 256 times the amount that our 20 STR NCM human can lift. Can he do that if he can only exert 3x as much force as the 20 STR NCM human? He's now exerting that force on to push a person's diaphragm up through their nostrils, instead of pushing a Sherman tank up towards the sky. How is one 256x as much force, but the other not?

[OddHat]

if he were Dr. Ogre, with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it.

But it's a question of where one draws the line on "realism", and there are likely some who would accept the Ogre NND and balk at some of the abilities in my games as well.

I expect so as well. I'd also repeat that I wouldn't allow Ogre's NND; however, I can see why and how it was included in the Ultimate Brick.


He can lift 256 times the amount that our 20 STR NCM human can lift. Can he do that if he can only exert 3x as much force as the 20 STR NCM human? He's now exerting that force on to push a person's diaphragm up through their nostrils, instead of pushing a Sherman tank up towards the sky. How is one 256x as much force, but the other not?

That's the old damage issue in HERO again. The Jumping , throwing, lifting and damage mechanics all err on the side of playability rather than accurate simulation of the forces involved. I'd be interested in seeing them fixed, but I doubt it's possible without completely re-working the game from the ground up.

[Sean Waters]

I completely disagree. The technobabel explanations of comic book silliness is aimed at an older and slightly better educated audience, and the amount of on camera blood and (generally temporary) death has gone up, but "realism"? In a world of flying men who melt tanks with energy beams from their eyes? Nonsense.

Nonsense?

We disagree. Writers cannot get away with the sort of sloppy and, frankly, condescending presentation that they used to.

Nothing wrong with technobabble, so long as there is some real techno in there, and the babble at least logically extends the thinking.

Ultimately though, the comics are not the game and the game is not the comics - they have different requirements. Superman can fire beams of energy from his eyes, and get away with it, but as soon as we start explaining that power by saying it is because he eats lots of carrots and that makes his eyes strong, you are laughed out of the store.

The game is not comics because comics can often get away without explanations as to how things work. The game doesn't always have that kind of luxury. You want to give Ogre a 6d6 NND and say it is as a result of his being able to precisely control his strength so as to crush the air from an opponently lungs without harming the surrounding flesh in any way, and you can hear even the little kids tittering.

I mean, it would be just as bad if you gave Ogre 20 points of Wu-Shu Kung Fu. It just does not make sense in context.

Whether or not you could ever justify the NND power and the stated sfx together for a character is almost irrelevant; you certainly can't for Ogre.

I stand by what I said in post 3 of this thread: not a top piece of character design.

[OddHat]

We disagree. Writers cannot get away with the sort of sloppy and, frankly, condescending presentation that they used to.

Sloppy and condescending is pretty much exactly how I'd describe Civil War. ;)


Nothing wrong with technobabble, so long as there is some real techno in there, and the babble at least logically extends the thinking.

I agree. After all, I'm a fan of the genre again. Still, the Marvel and DC Universes are filled with flying men, magic, gods in multiple flavors from Pagan to Christian to Cosmic, any number of shape changers, talking animals, people who re-write reality by punching it, etc. Terms like "Internally Consistent" may be a phrase you can use with a straight face and in good conscience to describe some superhero worlds, but not realistic.


Ultimately though, the comics are not the game and the game is not the comics - they have different requirements. Superman can fire beams of energy from his eyes, and get away with it, but as soon as we start explaining that power by saying it is because he eats lots of carrots and that makes his eyes strong, you are laughed out of the store.

Are you? It's no sillier than saying he's Solar Powered, or Psionic, or Magic. All of them are nonsense explanations.


The game is not comics because comics can often get away without explanations as to how things work. The game doesn't always have that kind of luxury. You want to give Ogre a 6d6 NND and say it is as a result of his being able to precisely control his strength so as to crush the air from an opponently lungs without harming the surrounding flesh in any way, and you can hear even the little kids tittering.

I can hear people saying "It's a genre thing, and it's the way these attacks work in HERO".


I mean, it would be just as bad if you gave Ogre 20 points of Wu-Shu Kung Fu. It just does not make sense in context.

Add a line or two in his campaign back story explaining how he learned it and you're golden.

[Sean Waters]

......................

Add a line or two in his campaign back story explaining how he learned it and you're golden.

I think that is the point though. Two points,even:

1. There is no such explanation for THIS character, so, again, not a top piece of character design, and

2. Whilst you can say that ANYTHING is so, I think that the best you could hope for here is something that looks golden from a distance, but up close smells like what it really is. Working in a fantastic genre doesn't mean there are no narrative rules any more.

Still, bottom line is I don't have to allow it in games I run, and if others are happy to have it in games they run, good luck to them.

[OddHat]

Still, bottom line is I don't have to allow it in games I run, and if others are happy to have it in games they run, good luck to them.

And that I agree with entirely. ;)

[Dust Raven]

A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm. A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

Just because Ogre has the STR to apply that kind of pressure doesn't mean he applies it all, or applies it in a way that causes harm. Ogre also has the STR to exert enough pressure to crush a normal car into steel spit wad, but he's still able to pick one up without causing any damage. Why the assumption that someone with superhuman strength must cause massive damage to things?

[Dust Raven]

if he were Dr. Ogre, with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it.

Here I agree. OGRE should not have this power. The power itself is fine and there is nothing wrong with it, but Ogre doesn't have the finesse and restraint to even consider trying something like it.

[Dust Raven]

I think that is the point though. Two points,even:

1. There is no such explanation for THIS character, so, again, not a top piece of character design, and

2. Whilst you can say that ANYTHING is so, I think that the best you could hope for here is something that looks golden from a distance, but up close smells like what it really is. Working in a fantastic genre doesn't mean there are no narrative rules any more.
I think the whole point of this particular character design was to demonstrate a full write-up using the rules and power builds in the Ultimate Brick, and nothing more. Ogre just happened to be who they used. Poor choice, but I don't think it was intended as "a top piece of character design" from the start.


Still, bottom line is I don't have to allow it in games I run, and if others are happy to have it in games they run, good luck to them.

Agreed 100%.

[Sean Waters]

Perhaps, as an exercise, would ought to create a 'bottom piece of character design', one so ill fitting and badly conceived that you'd rather gnaw of your own elbows than be associated, even by proximity with it.

I'm trying desperately hard not to deliver the punch line to this one....:nonp:

[Hugh Neilson]

Just because Ogre has the STR to apply that kind of pressure doesn't mean he applies it all, or applies it in a way that causes harm.

That being the case, it would beg a few more questions:

(a) What STR is he using? ie what level of STR would be needed to get this 6d6 NND effect?

(b) What if he applies his full STR to the same tactic? Does the target take a 6d6 NND plus a full-STR Crush? Does he take added damage?

I don't buy the "applies STR in a way that causes no harm". He is applying pressure to a human body. We're not all that compressible. The Heimlich maneuver hurts. It can cause physical injury. If you're choking, that's preferable to the alternative, but it's not pleasant.

[GAZZA]

Here I agree. OGRE should not have this power. The power itself is fine and there is nothing wrong with it, but Ogre doesn't have the finesse and restraint to even consider trying something like it.
Oh, I dunno - it could be some sort of idiot savant type ability.

I guess this doesn't really bother me all that much.

[Dust Raven]

That being the case, it would beg a few more questions:

(a) What STR is he using? ie what level of STR would be needed to get this 6d6 NND effect?
0 STR. All he needs is GM approval. Different GMs will require/accpt different explanations, or may require the character have a certain level of something or other for whatever is being bought, but that applies to everything, not just Ogre's Bearhug power.


(b) What if he applies his full STR to the same tactic? Does the target take a 6d6 NND plus a full-STR Crush? Does he take added damage?
Then Ogre would do 12d6 of normal damage. As you said yourself, he's applying his full STR. Sure, he's applying some level of strength when performing the Bearhug, but strength is not the same as STR. STR is a game mechanic, strength is a SFX.


I don't buy the "applies STR in a way that causes no harm". He is applying pressure to a human body. We're not all that compressible. The Heimlich maneuver hurts. It can cause physical injury. If you're choking, that's preferable to the alternative, but it's not pleasant.

Then don't buy it. Some schmuck let Ogre buy it. Besides, why are you getting hung up on all the little details? Since when does physical injury equal BODY damage? I few weeks ago I was physically injured about a dozen times in the course of a week. Even taking into account a pro-rated BODY REC and a minimum of 1 BODY per injury, I should have been left dying. Yet for some reason I seemed to be completely unaffected, short term and long term. I didn't take BODY, I just took so much STUN it left bruises, abrasions, scrapes, etc. I even lost some blood, but not enough to reduce by BODY even by a single point. At least not in my opinion.

[Dust Raven]

Oh, I dunno - it could be some sort of idiot savant type ability.

I guess this doesn't really bother me all that much.

If Ogre was an idiot savant, I'd imagine him having Perfect Pitch and the ability to play back any song he hears on a lap harp before imagining him having some innate "squeeze me" talent.

But other than that, it doesn't bother me much either. In fact, I completely didn't care about it until this thread started.

Thanks Grimble! ;)

[casualplayer]

Maybe this is King Ogre from Champions 3-D?

[Dust Raven]

Maybe this is King Ogre from Champions 3-D?

:nonp:

:ugly:

:help: