This is really frustrating me!

[Yamo]

I'm trying to design a viable "melee deflection and reflection" Power (or Multipower), but I can't quite get it right.

The basic idea is easy enough. I just make a Multipower with HKA and No Range Energy Blast and then add "Must Coincide With A Successfully Blocked Killing Attack (Normal Attack for the EB slot) (-1/2)" and "DCs Used Cannot Exceed Those In Attack Blocked (-1/2? -1/4?)" to each one.

Variable Special Effects (any Blocked HTH attack; +1/4) is also a must.

The problems are: No matter how many dice of effect I buy, there's no guarantee they'll be enough to match the attack I'm supposed to be reflecting. Missile Reflection doesn't have this problem. I can deflect an xd6 Energy Blast no problem if I make my roll and it will deal xd6 damage no matter what. If I put 10d6 of EB in my melee reflecting Power, a 20d6 reflected punch is going to do 10d6 damage max. This is lame and not consistant with the benefit from Missile Reflection.

Secondly, there's no real way to guarantee I'll be able to use all the Advantages of the incoming attack when it's reflected to a new target. Variable Advantage just doesn't work here. A simple Armor Piercing attack might be okay, but what about an Armor Piercing, Penetrating, NND, Does BODY? What what if I but it at the 1/2 level, but I only need 1/4 or 3/4 for a particular attack? Variable Advantage is just a bust here. Unless I buy it so many times that it adds something like +10 to the Power all by itself... :(

And even if I could do this, it seems like I'd invariably end up with a Power that cost many times what Missile Deflection/Reflection does and provides no more real benefit.

Aarg! Why this dumb prohibition in the rules on not allowing Melee Deflection?

EDIT: I have considered VPPs, but a huge Cosmic VPP is just as hellishly expensive relative to Missile Deflection/Reflection and there's still no guarantee I'll have enough points at my disposal to perfectly simulate reflecting any attack (good luck bouncing the HTH equivilent of a Destroyer Beam, for example).

[Agent Escafarc]

Try Stretching, Usable as Attack, you only need a few inches to turn a melee attack back apon a target (my character also has the not through intervening space because her SF/X is teleporting gates)

[Yamo]

Try Stretching, Usable as Attack, you only need a few inches to turn a melee attack back apon a target (my character also has the not through intervening space because her SF/X is teleporting gates)

That MIGHT work, but...

a) I'm not sure if you can use Stretching to effectively force a character to attack.

b) This would be an attack action. I want something like Missile Reflection that can be Aborted to to redirect HTH attacks.

[Agent Escafarc]

a) If you can use Flight,UAA to send a character into another character or wall why not this.

b) I ran into this too, I ended up puting it in a Damage Shield with a requires a Block roll limitation.

[Agent Escafarc]

BTW you can abort to Missle Deflection but not Reflection.

[Yamo]

BTW you can abort to Missle Deflection but not Reflection.

Yeah. Brain fart there.

[Ndreare]

As a game master I would consider it a viable option to allow the character to buy Missle Deflection and ad a +0 Modifier “Melee”. I think this is an interesting topic I have not put much thought in to before. Although I have worked with the martial maneuver “Reversal”. That was easy as I used predefined abilities from the book.


P.S.: I wonder if Steve has time to reply to this with an idea of his or to put an answer in “Herophiles” in the next DH. As lowly gamers I imagine if we ask him he may respond so I will ask.

[Vondy]

As a GM I would allow a player to purchase missile deflection-reflection defined as melee deflection-reflection at a +0 modifier. The fundamental mechanic is the same as the block maneuver and the additional cost is such that the additional abilities this construct would allow are well paid for.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by D-Man
As a GM I would allow a player to purchase missile deflection-reflection defined as melee deflection-reflection at a +0 modifier. The fundamental mechanic is the same as the block maneuver and the additional cost is such that the additional abilities this construct would allow are well paid for.
I like this! But to make sure I'm on the same page this would be a "Melee" only MD/R and to do both Ranged and HtH would require buying MD/R twice?

Now to see if my GM will allow it (of course if he doesn't I still have the stretching method:D )

[Lord Liaden]

I would favor D-Man's construct myself; if the cost for "Melee Reflection" were the same as for Missile Reflection, I can't see how it would be unbalancing. Mind you, I think you'd have to consider what types of HTH attacks could be Reflected based on the SFX of the attack. It probably wouldn't make sense to Reflect a Grab, for example, or a NND Nerve Strike which has to target a specific point on the victim's body.

I suspect that the lack of a Melee Reflection option may have to do with a dearth of source material displaying this kind of effect, as opposed to turning aside thrown projectiles, bullets etc. Out of curiousity, Yamo, what is the SFX of this ability?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc
I like this! But to make sure I'm on the same page this would be a "Melee" only MD/R and to do both Ranged and HtH would require buying MD/R twice?

Now to see if my GM will allow it (of course if he doesn't I still have the stretching method:D )

Yes - it would be melee only. You would either have to buy the ranged deflection-reflection separately or double the power's cost for it to be correctly priced in terms of effect.

[Yamo]

Out of curiousity, Yamo, what is the SFX of this ability?

Powerful telekinesis that redirects incoming blows in a direction of the character's choosing.

And since there doesn't seem to by any other legal way to do it right, and I loathe house rules of any kind, I'm just going to cheese out and use a lame kludge:

Telekinetic Melee Reflection: Extra-Dimensional Movement (any location in the otherwise-identical alternate dimension where a successfully-Blocked HTH attack aimed at the character this Phase was redirected to something else of the character's choice within its range instead, requiring that a new attack roll be made for it using the character's OCV), Trigger (successful Blocking of the HTH attack in question with intent to apply this Power; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (special effects fully invisible; +1/2) (44 Active Points), Total Cost: 44 points

Haha!

[Lord Liaden]

The effect resembling this that you most often see in the source material is when someone punches an opponent who has really tough skin or armor, and hurts his hand or other appendage. One inexpensive way to simulate that is to use the old "Self-Inflicted Damage" rule; you could read about that here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3538&highlight=selfinflicted

[Snarf]

Originally posted by Yamo

Telekinetic Melee Reflection: Extra-Dimensional Movement (any location in the otherwise-identical alternate dimension where a successfully-Blocked HTH attack aimed at the character this Phase was redirected to something else of the character's choice within its range instead, requiring that a new attack roll be made for it using the character's OCV), Trigger (successful Blocking of the HTH attack in question with intent to apply this Power; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (special effects fully invisible; +1/2) (44 Active Points), Total Cost: 44 points

Haha!
I've been seeing a couple things like this lately and it's kind of bothered me. Your ability sounds balanced, but if that's allowable, what stops people from making constructions like this:

I Kick All Your Asses: EDM (to the dimension where I just kicked everyone's ass ... and I have a bag of money) (AP 20)

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm with D-Man, Escafarc, and Liaden. What's worth more, the house-rule-less integrity of the system, or getting what you want from a system that is supposed to give you what you want?

[Agent X]

Another Special Effect use for Melee Deflection/Reflection is the ability to absorb the energy of your opponent's attack and redirect it back at them. There are some problems with Melee Deflection/Reflection thatmay need to be addressed differently than Missile Deflection/Reflection:
What if the player wants to be able to deflect/reflect at a distance? It probably would work the same as Missile Deflection/Reflection.

What if the player wants to be able to reflect a melee attack, not back to someone in melee range but as a ranged reflected attack!? This one should be pretty expensive. :)

Watch out for Ultimate Nemesis, the character with both Missile Deflection/Reflection and Melee Deflection/Reflection that can channel the attacks to virtually any target.:)

[Farkling]

And I personally don't see any problem with a damage shield requiring a block roll...just define the SFX as "as the the incoming attack" ... it also cannot exceed the actual dice in the attack. A two slot MP to cover the HKA vs. the HA. Ditching the power advantages is safe, it simulates a lack of "control" over the niceties of the reflected attack. Alternatively increase the MP slots to include the common effects.

The VPP limited to "only to duplicate/refelct hand to hand attacks" "requires successful block roll" is also viable.

Consider also, as the rules are "written" I think you would still require a ACTUAL deflection/reflection of no range energy attacks...but this is open to GM interpretation of how they wish missile delflection to be designed.

And the rest of you brains...what about a TK damage shield to "deflect melee attacks" ... how would that operate?

[Yamo]

And I personally don't see any problem with a damage shield requiring a block roll...just define the SFX as "as the the incoming attack" ... it also cannot exceed the actual dice in the attack. A two slot MP to cover the HKA vs. the HA. Ditching the power advantages is safe, it simulates a lack of "control" over the niceties of the reflected attack. Alternatively increase the MP slots to include the common effects.

The VPP limited to "only to duplicate/refelct hand to hand attacks" "requires successful block roll" is also viable.

First post in this thread details the various reasons that nether of these options are really viable.


And the rest of you brains...what about a TK damage shield to "deflect melee attacks" ... how would that operate?

Good question. I have absolutely no idea.

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Yamo
First post in this thread details the various reasons that nether of these options are really viable.


I don't see how ( I read it again)

I think the VPP is the only way to duplicate (and therefore SFX reflect) any possible melee attack

[Yamo]

I think the VPP is the only way to duplicate (and therefore SFX reflect) any possible melee attack

The problem is: The attack might be too "big" for the Pool to duplicate. A character with Missile Reflection can reflect ANY attack of the appropriate type, no matter how many Active (or Real) Points it is.

A secondary problem is that Cosmic VPPs of sufficient size to mirror even most attacks are vastly more expensive (low triple digit costs minimally) relative to Missile Reflection, but provide no more benefit. This is undesirable from a balance perspective. A PC in most games that could easily afford Missile Reflection either could not afford this ability, or could afford nothing else and would be an overall weak "one-trick pony" of a character.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo
The problem is: The attack might be too "big" for the Pool to duplicate. A character with Missile Reflection can reflect ANY attack of the appropriate type, no matter how many Active (or Real) Points it is.

A secondary problem is that Cosmic VPPs of sufficient size to mirror even most attacks are vastly more expensive (low triple digit costs minimally) relative to Missile Reflection, but provide no more benefit. This is undesirable from a balance perspective. A PC in most games that could easily afford Missile Reflection either could not afford this ability, or could afford nothing else and would be an overall weak "one-trick pony" of a character. Okay, I've thought about this:

For 102 Points you can have a character who can reflect virtually any attack except area attacks. For that you would probably need a suppression field against the advantage area affect.

I looked up the active points of the BIG GUYS like Dr. Destroyer, Menton, and Takofanes. They went up to 150 active points. This character could handle that.

62 Points (140 active points)
+1/4 Naked Modifier: Range Based on Strength: up to 160 Active Points : Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (160 Active Points); Limited Power Must be aware of attack (-1/2), Limited Power Only ranged versus initial target in melee combat (-1/2), Limited Range: Special (-1/4)

40 Points
Missile Reflection, any Ranged Attack

So Range based on strength is forced onto the melee combatants attack which means that simultaneously the character can choose to reflect the attack using their missile reflection. This is accomplished with the usable against other and the damage shield.

The first limitation reflects the fact that the power operates very much like missile deflection/reflection so the character needs to know the attack is coming.

The second limitation indicates that the effect of the usable against others doesn't make the attacker's melee attacks effectively ranged for anyone else.

The third limitation's limited range is simple. It is limited to one hex.

I don't think you should have to buy reduced endurance because the naked power advantage is meant to augment a power that doesn't cost endurance. If you think it should, the power would have a real cost of 71 points and be 160 active points.

So, a power meant to duplicate the effects of missile reflection for melee attacks only costs 61 points with missile reflection active available as well.

Just thinking outside the box.:)

I think I will post this in the Hero Rules section to see what Mr. Long thinks!

[Hitchhiker]

I'm with you, Agent. Your solution seems the most clear and straightforward to me. Expensive, but that's what you've got to expect from a power like this. The only tricky part is the "up to 160 points"-limit, although I don't think that anyone is using a HTH attack with more than 160 points...

To see if it really works, you should try it out in a fictious situation.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
I'm with you, Agent. Your solution seems the most clear and straightforward to me. Expensive, but that's what you've got to expect from a power like this. The only tricky part is the "up to 160 points"-limit, although I don't think that anyone is using a HTH attack with more than 160 points...

To see if it really works, you should try it out in a fictious situation. Cool! The problem I saw with it is calculating the active points when someone is stacking a martial maneuver with hand to hand attack and strength. Do they add individually? Are they considered separately? Given the cost and the fact that it is a damage shield, I would be nice and consider them separately. I have posted this one to Steve Long so we will see what he has to say, if he will make a commitment more than, "that's one way to do it."

I could play-test against Grond, I suppose.:)

[Lord Liaden]

I was looking recently at Scott Bennie's adventure "Stars of Blood" in DC #5, and I noticed that one character had an "anti-Entangle" Power bought as a Damage Shield without Continuous, to reflect that it only works Instantly to destroy the Entangle surrounding that character. I'm thinking that if we were to use a Damage Shield construct as the basis for a legal Damage Reflection ability, since you'd only be reflecting one attack at a time, there wouldn't necessarily be a need to make that Continuous, either.

Here's what I propose: the character buys the +1/2 Damage Shield as a Naked Advantage applying to any HTH attack, up to the Active Points of whatever size attack he wants to reflect (including Advantages). To that he applys Usable on Others as an Attack (+1), so that it can be affect any HTH damage used by an attacker, converting it into an instant Damage Shield surrounding the defender. Essentially the Active Points of this ability will equal the Active Points of the attack that the character intends to reflect. To this you apply a Limitation, "Others only," which I'd peg at -1/2 based on the same Lim for Aid.

Now a Power UOO as an Attack requires a successful Attack Roll, but since the Block Maneuver is itself an Attack Roll, I see no reason why this Power couldn't be defined as functioning on a successful Block. Since you're just switching the Block for a normal attack, and the Damage Shield should be assumed to "go of" at the same time as the Block (like a Compound Power), I'd define this as a 0 Advantage/Limitation for the DS.

So, a character with this Power construct makes a successful Block negating the attacker's damage. At that moment the DS Advantage "kicks in", giving the defender a Damage Shield based on the attack. Assuming that the SFX of the Block Maneuver involves physical contact with the attacker, that attacker would take damage from the DS equal to his own attack. Since the DS would be Instant in this case, it would only affect the attacker who was Blocked on this occasion.

Okay, I've probably missed something, so feel free to take this apart. :)

[Farkling]

Option B !! Option B !!

Seriously, it is much simpler and less, um, rules manipulative than forcing the range and reflecting.

After re-reading the Deflection/Reflection rules, I'm pretty sure that "forcing the range" may work mechanically.

But for forcing the rules into it, either will work...
However, I find they both hinge on "with the GM's permission" for the naked power advantage, and the usable against others.

Isn't it simply easier to add one more power to the book that acts as Missile Deflection/Reflection with hand to hand attacks? We know comic justification for it exists...Magneto is a good example of power deflected (metal) melee attacks.
But can he reflect them?

The damage shield is the CLOSEST special effect for this by my information, since it DOES damage to HtH attackers. But it still has to be saddled with a Variable Advvantage to cover everything as a reflection, and needs to exceed most active point limits set for a campaign. At least you don't need defenses, since if you block the attack, it doesn't do damage.

The damage shield effect could theoretically bounce some damage from AE HtH attacks also though, unless limited. Though I suppose that is nitpicking, since the AE HtH attack may not actually cause the wielder to "contact" the victim, depending on SE. Hmmm....that would be a flaw with the damage shield construct also...if a focus hits the target, doesn't the focus take the damaage?
Swordguy: "I hit him with my sword"
Blocker: "I reflect the attack back at him" (makes roll)
GM: "Swordguy's sword shatters as you complete the manuever"

Maybe the forced range IS the beast substitute. Waht would the additional limitation be for "only to Reflect attacks Range can be added/forced onto" ?? That would then be HtH only, using that construct.

And as to the martial arts, I believe it says in a book somewhere that TK with Fine Manipulation can use martial manuevers, so the precedent has been set that to give range to the martial manuevers you merely need to have access to ranged strength...so it would be relatively easy to use on most martial artists. That same justification covers stretchy martial artists too...so would it cover Street Fighter style CHI punches? Those are usually bought as TK or EB are they not? Possibly this needs more consideration. Maybe Missile Reflection is too powerful and shoul dbe toned down? Or does it need seperate adders for application to "melee" strikes of various kinds?

I think I'm debating for the sake of debate at this point. I'm going to take a nap.

[tesuji]

I would make "reflect melee attacks" another category to buy for MD, pricing it at about +20 points..

It expands the scope of the power, which attacks can be reflected without increasing the capability... each reflection attempt is only stopping one attack, you just chose a different attack.

It does not seem any more significant a increase in scope than say the difference between thrown weapons only and all ranged attacks (limited by fx.)

Since bricks are not more vulnerable to punches than energy balsters are to their energy blasts, the deflection angle seems not to be a problem issue either.

besides, block is free, so all we are really talking about here is adding reflection to block... the 'missile deflection" for melee is already there in block.

this really doesn't seem like some uber ability needing massive constructions.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Farkling
Isn't it simply easier to add one more power to the book that acts as Missile Deflection/Reflection with hand to hand attacks?

Probably. In fact I declared in a previous post that I favor that approach myself. But there are quite a few HERO gamers (like the gentleman who started this thread) who prefer to find a legal way under the rules to create an effect, rather than house-rule it.

Mind you, even if you added a Melee Reflection Power based on Missile Reflection, you'd still have to decide if you wanted to define categories for what type of HTH attacks could be reflected at what cost levels, comparable to the thrown weapons/bullets/any categories for Missile Reflection.


Originally posted by Farkling
The damage shield is the CLOSEST special effect for this by my information, since it DOES damage to HtH attackers. But it still has to be saddled with a Variable Advvantage to cover everything as a reflection, and needs to exceed most active point limits set for a campaign.

Variable Advantage wouldn't really apply in this instance; I suppose you could make a case for Variable Special Effects being necessary, but IMHO it would be more a matter of defining what range of HTH attack/damage the Damage Shield construct could be applied to (Normal Damage, Killing Damage, Physical, Energy, etc.)


Originally posted by Farkling
Hmmm....that would be a flaw with the damage shield construct also...if a focus hits the target, doesn't the focus take the damaage?
Swordguy: "I hit him with my sword"
Blocker: "I reflect the attack back at him" (makes roll)
GM: "Swordguy's sword shatters as you complete the manuever"

It's always been part of defining the SFX of a Damage Shield as to whether the damage affects a weapon that contacts the Shield, or the person holding the weapon. There may be constructs for which harming the weapon instead of the wielder would be entirely appropriate.

Thanks for raising interesting points. :)

[Agent Escafarc]

After further review with my GM we decided to stick with the Stretching Damage Shield. We thought it was best choice for the SF/X of my character.

[Agent X]

I'm still thinking what I came up with best addresses Yamo's concerning upper limits of reflected melee attacks. This creates a melee reflection power that absolutely mimics missile reflection, including the need for a 1/2 phase action and the ability to abort.

[Agent X]

Just read Steve Long's response to what I came up with. As far as I can tell, they aren't too interested in a melee reflection power that doesn't cost rediculous sums or they favor the +0 advantage idea. I guess time will tell.

[Lord Liaden]

I do hope that Steve will consider dealing with this concept in a future HEROglyphs column for Digital Hero. This is one of those concepts (like an "always hits" attack or stopping time) for which there doesn't seem to be a clearly intuitive approach in the system.

[Kristopher]

Is there really room in an RPG for an "always hits" attack?

[Chris Goodwin]

The archetypal "always hits" attack is D&D's Magic Missile, which has been around for at least 25 years. So yeah, I'd guess so. The reason people want it in Hero is so they can do a Hero version of Magic Missile.

[Lord Liaden]

And Steve did address the Magic Missile construct in his HEROglyphs column in DH #2. :) It's actually a concept which has precedent outside of gaming, e.g. in myth Thor's hammer Mjollnir would never fail to hit its target when thrown. One of the big selling points for the HERO System is that you supposedly can create any ability you can conceive of (at least approximately, if not precisely). Sometimes it takes some system gymnastics, though, and who can make HERO do a triple twisting backflip dismount better than the guy who wrote the book? ;)

[Yamo]

And Steve did address the Magic Missile construct in his HEROglyphs column in DH #2. It's actually a concept which has precedent outside of gaming, e.g. in myth Thor's hammer Mjollnir would never fail to hit its target when thrown. One of the big selling points for the HERO System is that you supposedly can create any ability you can conceive of (at least approximately, if not precisely). Sometimes it takes some system gymnastics, though, and who can make HERO do a triple twisting backflip dismount better than the guy who wrote the book?

Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo
Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up. Yamo, have you looked at my suggestion for melee deflection/reflection? Is that too expensive? If so, how cheap do you think melee deflection/reflection should be?

[Yamo]

Yamo, have you looked at my suggestion for melee deflection/reflection? Is that too expensive? If so, how cheap do you think melee deflection/reflection should be?

That makes sense. I've never heard of a naked Advantage UAA. Interesting.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo
That makes sense. I've never heard of a naked Advantage UAA. Interesting. I asked Steve Long if he would be interested in a USPD write-up of the power. He wasn't interested.

[Kristopher]

It's been so long since I've had anything to do with D&D that I'd forgetten Magic Missile. Most other "always hits" attacks in RPGs at least require some kind of skill roll on the part of the attacker to launch the thing. Magic Missile doesn't even have that.

Personally, I don't much care for the Magic Missile type of powers.

[Agent X]

I'm trying to remember a single "always hits" power in the comic books... and I'm not succeeding. It suppose it might show up in fantasy though.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm trying to remember a single "always hits" power in the comic books... and I'm not succeeding. It suppose it might show up in fantasy though.

Having watched the Cartoon Network "Darkseid Marathon" last night, it seems that Darkseid's eyebeams rarely, ef ever, miss their target. They certainly have a serious helping of Indirect.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Having watched the Cartoon Network "Darkseid Marathon" last night, it seems that Darkseid's eyebeams rarely, ef ever, miss their target. They certainly have a serious helping of Indirect. It has been suggested that you design them as a missile with the summon power. The beams can be outrun and occasionally misdirected to hit something else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yeah, I saw that the other night as well.

I'd write those up as Indirect, AE-1hex accurate with a (very) large OCV bonus. They do occasionaly miss (very occasionaly) but they don't seem to come around for multiple passes...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
Yeah, I saw that the other night as well.

I'd write those up as Indirect, AE-1hex accurate with a (very) large OCV bonus. They do occasionaly miss (very occasionaly) but they don't seem to come around for multiple passes... They do in the comic books or at least they did when I read comics.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo
Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up.

I'd prefer not to refer directly to Steve's DH column openly on the boards without his permission; however, Steve did post an abbreviated version of his concepts on the pre-DOS forums, so I don't think he'd mind me reproducing that here:

RKA, NND, Does BODY, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate), used with a restricted type of Rapid Fire. The spell also includes a big fat pile of +1 Combat Skill Levels to overcome various penalties and come as close to an "automatic hit" as the HERO System will allow. The end result costs over 40 points, most of it being the CSLs.

For more details, I'm afraid you'll have to pick up Digital Hero #2.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I'd prefer not to refer directly to Steve's DH column openly on the boards without his permission; however, Steve did post an abbreviated version of his concepts on the pre-DOS forums, so I don't think he'd mind me reproducing that here:

RKA, NND, Does BODY, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate), used with a restricted type of Rapid Fire. The spell also includes a big fat pile of +1 Combat Skill Levels to overcome various penalties and come as close to an "automatic hit" as the HERO System will allow. The end result costs over 40 points, most of it being the CSLs.

For more details, I'm afraid you'll have to pick up Digital Hero #2. Well, I was on the right track then...

[Talon]

IMO, a power bought with enough OCV levels to hit anyone in the campaign on a 17- is close enough to "always hits" as makes no difference; just use a SFX other than "I missed" for when you roll an 18.

I actually had a PC in one of my games who took "Not My Fault" as a Perk...whenever he missed, it was due to some random aspect of the universe (ceiling tile falling, etc.). The /character/ never missed. :)

As for melee Reflection: one common SFX is a character who creates teleport gates, so that someone's attack literally appears behind them (or across the battlefield).

Although the Ranged UAA Advantage thing give me fits when I read it in the Questions forum (before seeing this thread), I think it's the best way to go -- expensive and cheesy, but gets the job done, and properly conveys the dangerousness of allowing this sort of power. ("Hm...no, you attack /him/, you attack /him/, and you attack yourself. OK.")

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
IMO, a power bought with enough OCV levels to hit anyone in the campaign on a 17- is close enough to "always hits" as makes no difference; just use a SFX other than "I missed" for when you roll an 18.

I actually had a PC in one of my games who took "Not My Fault" as a Perk...whenever he missed, it was due to some random aspect of the universe (ceiling tile falling, etc.). The /character/ never missed. :)

As for melee Reflection: one common SFX is a character who creates teleport gates, so that someone's attack literally appears behind them (or across the battlefield).

Although the Ranged UAA Advantage thing give me fits when I read it in the Questions forum (before seeing this thread), I think it's the best way to go -- expensive and cheesy, but gets the job done, and properly conveys the dangerousness of allowing this sort of power. ("Hm...no, you attack /him/, you attack /him/, and you attack yourself. OK.") The Ranged UAA costs 62 points requires the character to spend another 40 points on missile reflection to reflect any basic attack. That's 102 points and the character still has to know the attack is coming and make the roll. It's not surefire and it costs 102 points! I'm not sure that's that cheesy. Throw in enhanced senses, 360 degrees, detect invisible as a targeting sense, and a pile of skill levels with a suppression field against area affect attacks - now that's cheesy... and expensive.

If the character is really only designed to reflect melee attacks and not true missile attacks it would probably cost 82 points thanks to a -1 limitation on the missile reflection.

[zornwil]

FWIW, I favor the approach of a +0 lim/adv on Missille Reflection/Deflection or the +20 adder to Missile Reflection/Deflection (although then you have a real limitation offsetting the fact it is no longer useful against missilles). To steal (I think) Geoff's sig, the rulebook does say not to get hung up on "the right way" and this is direct and seems to be in the ballpark being looked for. Because it is really reflection/deflection, it reflects the attack with all its pluses and minuses. I think it's less kludgy, even if less "mechanically correct" (and I leave the "if" in there for a reason), then Agent X' proposal, with all due respect to Agent X (as I do think it's a very good suggestion and has interesting possibilities of its own).

I understand Yamo rejected this, so that's why I say "FWIW" (which isn't much).

[Agent X]

I was just coming up with something that didn't require creating a new power. It may require GM's permission but it isn't a "House Rule" per se.

I actually would favor a power called melee deflection/reflection too, but not as an adder to missile deflection/reflection. Same points, same function, same limitations only for non-ranged attacks.

[Hitchhiker]

This sounds really simple...but what about the cost? Are you sure it should be the same? There aren't many "bigger" or "smaller" HTH attacks - it depends on the size of the attacker and the equipment he uses.

It doesn't make sense for any projectile, arrow, thrown object or else...if I was the GM I'd lower the cost a little.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
This sounds really simple...but what about the cost? Are you sure it should be the same? There aren't many "bigger" or "smaller" HTH attacks - it depends on the size of the attacker and the equipment he uses.

It doesn't make sense for any projectile, arrow, thrown object or else...if I was the GM I'd lower the cost a little. I'm a little confused on this post. Could you clarify?

[Hitchhiker]

Projectiles have different sizes and forms. Bullets and arrows are an example. Therefore, if you want to deflect only arrows and thrown objects, the cost is 10 Pts. If you want to deflect bullets, the cost increases to 15 Pts, because they are faster. You know the story.

Now, HTH attacks aren't that different. Sure, you might attack with a sword or a bare fist, but the deflection doesn't change much. A hit with a sword is not THAT much faster than a punch with a fist. That's why I would lower the cost for a custom HTH deflection power - most attacks have the same speed.

[Agent X]

It should always be kept in mind what the usefulness of a power is as well as its relative ease of use. Having said that I would do it something like this:
5 points: normal bludgeoning attacks
10 points:bludgeoning hand killing attacks
15 points: all bludgeoning and edged attacks
20 points: all other attacks such as spiky attacks, offensive damage shields, etc.
(forgive me for the language but I didn't want to have to sort through a thesaurus to figure this one out)
+20 points to reflect back at attacker
+10 more points to reflect at any target

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by Agent X
It should always be kept in mind what the usefulness of a power is as well as its relative ease of use. Having said that I would do it something like this:
5 points: normal bludgeoning attacks
10 points:bludgeoning hand killing attacks
15 points: all bludgeoning and edged attacks
20 points: all other attacks such as spiky attacks, offensive damage shields, etc.
(forgive me for the language but I didn't want to have to sort through a thesaurus to figure this one out)
+20 points to reflect back at attacker
+10 more points to reflect at any target

I really don't think that the first 20 points of this power are necessary. After all, any player already has 'Melee Deflection' at its highest level, and it's absolutely free. It's called the Block Maneuver.

Now for the Reflection aspect, I could see why it might be expensive to build from scratch using the system rules. I would allow a player to use Missle Reflection as a basis for Melee Reflection for a flat fee of 40 points, with the appropriate adder/advantage for reflect at any target. I'd caveat the "any target" with "any adjacent target", since the attack being reflected is already No Range by its very definition.

But that's just me,
Steve

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Xandarr
I really don't think that the first 20 points of this power are necessary. After all, any player already has 'Melee Deflection' at its highest level, and it's absolutely free. It's called the Block Maneuver.

Now for the Reflection aspect, I could see why it might be expensive to build from scratch using the system rules. I would allow a player to use Missle Reflection as a basis for Melee Reflection for a flat fee of 40 points, with the appropriate adder/advantage for reflect at any target. I'd caveat the "any target" with "any adjacent target", since the attack being reflected is already No Range by its very definition.

But that's just me,
Steve The first 20 points are necessary because of the reflection power. It defines what can be reflected. If you are not reflecting the power, why buy this power instead of just a block? If you buy reflection then you may want to define what you can reflect and it may not be every melee attack.

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by Agent X
The first 20 points are necessary because of the reflection power. It defines what can be reflected. If you are not reflecting the power, why buy this power instead of just a block? If you buy reflection then you may want to define what you can reflect and it may not be every melee attack.

Although you have a good point, I disagree that there is a need to define specific types of HtH attacks for reflection purposes. If a character can block any type of HtH attack for free by default, then he should also be able to reflect any type of HtH attack for the 40 points (or whatever value you might feel is fair). If for some reason there are certain HtH attacks that cannot be reflected, I feel that is better defined by using a limitation on the cost of HtH Reflection instead. This allows the player to work with the GM to taylor the power at the appropriate level for the campaign, rather than setting arbitrary amounts that are unrelated to setting.

This is what Missle Deflection and Reflection do now, and I disagree with it. I personally feel that MD should be 20 points, and MR should be another 20, with appropriate limitations based on the setting (only vs throw weapons might be -1/2 in a fantasy setting, but worth -2 in a futuristic campaign where laser guns and lightsabres are standard issue).


But that's just my personal preference,
Steve