TK Maneuver madness

[Jhamin]

I have a player contemplating a new character, and I was just wondering what the consensus was on a power limit.

According to FREd, Telekinesis can be used for strike and grab maneuvers, and you can buy extra standard and optional maneuvers for 3 points each. So far, so good. Now you buy martial maneuvers with the TK weapon element. Also good.

Now, the character has to gesture with his body to use the maneuvers with his TK, if he is entangled or otherwise unable to move he can't use his maneuvers. Does this qualify for a "gestures" limit? Raw TK might, but this character is concenved as being able to use TK but not his martial moves when entangled. I know that you normally cannot take gestures on a martial maneuver (that is assumed in the maneuver) but is this an exception? And what abut the 3 point moves used to buy basic and optional maneuvers?

I vaugely remember this being discussed when FREd was released, but can't find the discussion now.

[Agent X]

If he can only use the martial maneuvers with telekinesis then I suppose he could place the gestures limitation on them. If he has open hand as a free weapon element, no way.

[Hitchhiker]

Your character uses his TK for a Martial Maneuver. He needs to gesture the move with his hands. Now somebody entangles him with superglue. Now he can't make any gestures anymore, because his hands are glued to his chest.

Therefore, I would use a gestures limit.

In Star Wars, for example, Luke Skywalker also had to make a gesture (reach out with his hand) to telekinetically grab the lightsaber when he was captured in the icecave.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
Your character uses his TK for a Martial Maneuver. He needs to gesture the move with his hands. Now somebody entangles him with superglue. Now he can't make any gestures anymore, because his hands are glued to his chest.

Therefore, I would use a gestures limit.

In Star Wars, for example, Luke Skywalker also had to make a gesture (reach out with his hand) to telekinetically grab the lightsaber when he was captured in the icecave. That makes sense only if the telekinesis is limited to just use with martial maneuvers. Is it?

[Hitchhiker]

I don't know. It's just my point of view. TK without gestures doesn't make a lot of sense to me...on the other hand, you might be able to lift objects with your mind. Ah, I really don't know! Dang!

Ask someone who's older than me. And wiser. Shouldn't be that hard to find.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
I don't know. It's just my point of view. TK without gestures doesn't make a lot of sense to me...on the other hand, you might be able to lift objects with your mind. Ah, I really don't know! Dang!

Ask someone who's older than me. And wiser. Shouldn't be that hard to find. How old are you? (If you don't mind)

[Hitchhiker]

21. For some people I'm old, for others just another youngster.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
21. For some people I'm old, for others just another youngster. Just an old youngster to me. I'm 32. Age usually doesn't have that much to do with raw intelligence but it sure can have a lot to do with what you do with it YMMV. Enjoy those awkward early twenties years while you have though. Of course, this means I've been role playing as long as you've been alive.:)

But when it comes to role playing age isn't that important. Role playing is like a nose. It's not the size (or age) of the nose but what is inside it that counts.

[Hitchhiker]

Now, if you would just explain that interesting YMMV to me...(See? Another awkward situation for me!)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
Now, if you would just explain that interesting YMMV to me...(See? Another awkward situation for me!) I just learned it from Lord Liaden: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary which means you may have had different experience that could draw you to different conclusions.

[Hitchhiker]

Sounds good. Gotta take a note of that one. Thanks for the advice, and sorry for hijacking the thread.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker
Sounds good. Gotta take a note of that one. Thanks for the advice, and sorry for hijacking the thread. Thread hijacking is a tradition around here.:)

Speaking of which, have you checked out my proposed solution to Yamo's quandary over how to build a melee reflection power like missile reflection on the "This really frustrates me" thread? I would love some input on it.

[smugg]

I'm uncomfortable with allowing Martial Maneuvers used with TK. I would rather see a 'TK tricks' MP or EC.

Just my two cents.

[JmOz]

I am in agreement with smugg,

However having said THAT, it is legal to take gestures on the TK for the MA thing...

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by smugg
I'm uncomfortable with allowing Martial Maneuvers used with TK. I would rather see a 'TK tricks' MP or EC.

Just my two cents.

I'm kind of uncomfortable myself, but the power description of TK in FREd says you can buy standard and optional rules for TK, and I believe that the old Ultimate Mentalist said you could use martial maneuvers, so this isn't really much of a leap. I am willing to allow it as an experiment if nothing else.

[Agent X]

I'm not uncomfortable in the least depending on character concept. This is by no means the most efficient attack form you can make in the system.

[Kristopher]

It's not cheap in terms of the TK, but...

OK, damn, how much is Off Strike again? 4 or 5? I don't have the book with me right now (in the office on Sunday, yuck), and I can't for the life of me remember.

Anyway, 1 pt for Weapon Element: TK, right? And we'll say 5 pts for the Offensive Strike. For 6 pts, you add 4d6. Not bad.

Some GMs might rule that performing Martial Arts maneuvers with TK requires the Fine Manipulation adder, though.

Speaking of the cost of TK, I've always wondered why it's as expensive as it is...it's like STR w/ Ranged (+1/2), which would be 15 pts for 10 levels. BUT, if you compare it the cost of STR, you'd almost have to consider the fact that you don't get any figured characteristics for TK, which would be -1/2, right? Just thinking out loud...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It's not cheap in terms of the TK, but...

OK, damn, how much is Off Strike again? 4 or 5? I don't have the book with me right now (in the office on Sunday, yuck), and I can't for the life of me remember.

Anyway, 1 pt for Weapon Element: TK, right? And we'll say 5 pts for the Offensive Strike. For 6 pts, you add 4d6. Not bad.

Some GMs might rule that performing Martial Arts maneuvers with TK requires the Fine Manipulation adder, though.

Speaking of the cost of TK, I've always wondered why it's as expensive as it is...it's like STR w/ Ranged (+1/2), which would be 15 pts for 10 levels. BUT, if you compare it the cost of STR, you'd almost have to consider the fact that you don't get any figured characteristics for TK, which would be -1/2, right? Just thinking out loud... Yeah, I think Fine Manipulation would be a good requirement. It does get a little creepy when you think of adding damage classes to telekinesis though.:D

[smugg]

I just think this really opens it up. I mean, is there then an attack power you couldn't represent with a weapon element and just keep stacking DCs?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by smugg
I just think this really opens it up. I mean, is there then an attack power you couldn't represent with a weapon element and just keep stacking DCs? I don't know. You know it won't really matter if you play with a good group.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Some GMs might rule that performing Martial Arts maneuvers with TK requires the Fine Manipulation adder, though.

FREd actually says that you need fine manipulation before you can use maneuvers. So this isn't even a "some GMs" thing, it is in the system.


And Agent X, the Damage classes are exactly what has me worried. The character isn't finished yet so we will see how he comes out. I keep reminding myself that martial maneuvers are supposed to be able to work with advantages like Armor Piercing, so TK with maneuvers probably isn't that bad.

I also remember seeing find weakness on Ironclad for the first time and nearly spitting up my Diet Coke. Just cause it's scary doesn't mean a superhero can't have it. After all, what GM let Spider Man's player buy a power that makes sure he will never be suprised or blindsided?

This player is catching me while I am in an expansive mood, so we will see how it goes.

[Fur Face]

I think it would be okay if you had TK strength, fine manipulation, and various weapon elements to simulate some really powerful Chi'. I think I would limit amount of TK STR to the characters STR, and requires concentration/extra end, since that is how it seems to be used in cinema.

Balance wise it would be just about the same as buying an additional powers (EB/RKA/HTH Ranged) to simulate ranged martial art abilities.

Sounds like a cool schick!:)