The precise position of HitLoc 13

[Fitz]

Where is the elusive HitLoc 13? And is it actually worth worrying about?

[ghost-angel]

I always assumed it was the area from the genitals up to the belt line. (stunningly, women have genitals too, just not hanging as low.)

I chose option 3 in the poll.

[Killer Shrike]

Where is the elusive HitLoc 13? And is it actually worth worrying about?

It's every where you want to be, and some places you don't as well.

[Bismark]

I always go with 'belt line to the "hurty bits"' as well. Lots of lovely blood vessels to hit there, plus the reproductive organs, plus (in pre-modern societies, a real nasty place to get hit as it was a 'slow killer') the caecum [:eek:]


My doctor friends, having seen the hit location diagram on one of my character sheets, refer to Location 13 as 'the lower giblets' :D - as good a label as any.

[Edsel]

Our group always counted it as the assorted vital areas of the body from the neck down. In fact our house rules includes a sub-table for use when you absolutely have to know where the damage was inflicted. You roll 1d6 on the following:

1 = Heart, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x2 BODY
2-3 = Lung, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
4 = Kidney, x5 STUNx, x2 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
5 = Liver, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
6 = Genitals, x5 STUNx, x2 N STUN, x2 BODY

So I voted for option #2 since I have actually put some thought into this. :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Our group always counted it as the assorted vital areas of the body from the neck down. In fact our house rules includes a sub-table for use when you absolutely have to know where the damage was inflicted. You roll 1d6 on the following:

1 = Heart, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x2 BODY
2-3 = Lung, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
4 = Kidney, x5 STUNx, x2 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
5 = Liver, x4 STUNx, x1.5 N STUN, x1.5 BODY
6 = Genitals, x5 STUNx, x2 N STUN, x2 BODY

So I voted for option #2 since I have actually put some thought into this. :)

Nice!
The Body mod for the groin seems kinda extreme to me... I'd probably do something like a special rule for the location so its a x1 Body (To be honest, IMO it's not usually any more threatening than a non vital chest wound), but that Body taken is doubled to determine Impairing or Disabling effects. They aren't called the hurty bit for nothin'... reproductive stuff is pretty easy to take out of function.

[Nolgroth]

Nice!
The Body mod for the groin seems kinda extreme to me... I'd probably do something like a special rule for the location so its a x1 Body (To be honest, IMO it's not usually any more threatening than a non vital chest wound), but that Body taken is doubled to determine Impairing or Disabling effects. They aren't called the hurty bit for nothin'... reproductive stuff is pretty easy to take out of function.Not to mention one heck of a STUN multiplier. :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Not to mention one heck of a STUN multiplier. :)

You'll note I didn't disagree with the x5 Stun & X2 NStun Mods....

:nonp:

[Kristopher]

It's actually pretty funny that someone thought it was a good idea to post a poll thread with the apparent direct intent of insulting everyone talking about a subject, and that the discussion of that subject immediately took over the thread as if nothing ever happened.

[L. Marcus]

I laughed. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

With no offense intended, I find this pretty funny:


You, and everyone else who wants to make snide "Why are you talking about this?" comments about the Location 13 subthread, can just not read the posts about it, or not read the thread, and keep your comments to yourselves. :straight:

So someone starts a second thread for the snide comments and:


It's actually pretty funny that someone thought it was a good idea to post a poll thread with the apparent direct intent of insulting everyone talking about a subject, and that the discussion of that subject immediately took over the thread as if nothing ever happened.

What happened to "If you don't like the thread topic, don't read it"? :confused:

[Hugh Neilson]

hmmm...when I was a very young kid, we weren't that politically senisitive, so we would play "war". We'd fall back , and moan our wounds. "I got shot in the arm"; "I got shot in the leg". One kid always got shot "in the worst possible place".

Maybe that's the vitals. At location 13 not because it's physically between 12 and 14, but because 13 is the most unlucky of numbers, so it strikes in the "worst possible place"

[Savinien]

I think it is an interesting conversation, but going into too many details is SIM to me. Too SIM.

I can see the various sides, though. When cover or piecemeal armor are involved, it steps out of the bounds of the system to say 13 can be anywhere. That's why the neat little second table above is a good idea.

[Edsel]

I cooked up the detailed hit locations table since occasionally my game features the odd super-natural creature. Sometimes it's important to hit the heart of such critters and if a character isn't aiming specifically for that location and rolls a 13 I needed to know just what was hit. A wooden stake in Dracula's Kidney or Groin is just going to piss him off.

I kept the x2 BODY for the Groin hit since that is what everyone seemed to assume a Vitals hit was a groin shot and that was what a vitals hit did. I probably ought to drop it to 1.5x BODY or 1x BODY but there are a lot of major arteries in that area. Perhaps a increased bleeding dice (for those that use the rule) would be more appropriate.

[Lucius]

Where is the elusive HitLoc 13? And is it actually worth worrying about?

1. It's exactly where it says it is: The Vitals.

See

http://dict.die.net/vitals/

or

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitals

2. Is it worth worrying about? Depends on who you are and what your circumstances are. If there is misunderstanding in your gaming group, for example, it is worth worrying about because that is a conflict that needs to be resolved.

Lucius Alexander

Riding through on a palindromedary

[Kristopher]

With no offense intended, I find this pretty funny:



So someone starts a second thread for the snide comments and:



What happened to "If you don't like the thread topic, don't read it"? :confused:

There's a bit of a difference when the entire purpose of posting the thread was to be insulting to other posters.

[Kristopher]

1. It's exactly where it says it is: The Vitals.

See

http://dict.die.net/vitals/

or

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitals

Because of course it wouldn't be the first time an RPG misappropriated a word for an in-game term... :rolleyes:

[Chris Goodwin]

1. It's exactly where it says it is: The Vitals.

See

http://dict.die.net/vitals/

or

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitals


Because of course it wouldn't be the first time an RPG misappropriated a word for an in-game term... :rolleyes:

And I doubt that Steve Peterson and George MacDonald had those dictionaries out when they first created the hit location chart.

[Lucius]

And I doubt that Steve Peterson and George MacDonald had those dictionaries out when they first created the hit location chart.

I doubt it too. I doubt they needed them. I don't need a dictionary to understand what is meant by the word "vitals." I included the links for the benefit of those who might profit by them.

My point is that I see every reason to think that when Mr. Peterson and Mr. MacDonald and whoever else was involved said "Vitals" they meant "Vitals" and no convincing reason to assume they meant something else.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary regrets never having met Dr. Seuss.

[Kristopher]

I doubt it too. I doubt they needed them. I don't need a dictionary to understand what is meant by the word "vitals." I included the links for the benefit of those who might profit by them.

My point is that I see every reason to think that when Mr. Peterson and Mr. MacDonald and whoever else was involved said "Vitals" they meant "Vitals" and no convincing reason to assume they meant something else.

Except, of course, for everything that's been pointed out about armor coverage, what's on either side of "13" on the chart, the inconsitency of a wildcard hit location with the rest of the system, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, except for that stuff, there's no other reason.

[Fitz]

There's a bit of a difference when the entire purpose of posting the thread was to be insulting to other posters.

I'm sorry you're so easily affronted. I really think you're being a little over-sensitive.

[MorpheousXO]

I think it kind of have to be the "lower giblets" area, at least when it comes to Armor. I mean, if it represents things like the heart, brain, lungs, kidneys, etc. then why wouldn't it get the armor from the chest/helmet/whatever? Particularly in the case of the heart. Other places you might be able to say there was a hole there, but generally chest armor doesn't have a hole in the middle of the chest. I suppose you could say you got there through the armpit, but still.

Now, when you don't have armor... or just rule that armor covers everywhere for the purposes of damage but actual appearance can differ... then you could have it be any of these VITAL areas because it's all the same defensively speaking.

So yes, the orc hit the barbarian in the balls three phases in a row. Good thing he was Raging or he'd have been down! (true story :nonp:)

[katal3]

Honestly I don't see this topic as offensive, and strictly speaking it's patently unfair to claim knowledge of someone elses motivations, especially when the only apparant offence was an amusingly exagerated poll.
As for Hit locations themselves (the actual topic at hand). I wouldn't use them unless I needed them for something. Simply because it's faster to narrate a 'hit-location' from the damage done by the attack. (A mage of mine once flung an opponent 7" after hitting him with a gravity ball in the left hand. The campaign used hit locations.)
I would say if your using the sub-table above and then applying defenses based upon which location it was closest to would be easiest. However then it makes no sense to buy armor for Location 13.
All things considered, I think Location 13 is something like Hero's version of a critical hit. Meaning that by it's nature it's going to be somewhat abstract. (which shouldn't be a problem considering that in it's purest form Hero is a pretty darn abstract system, and it has to be in order to function as it's intended.

[Chris Goodwin]

I thought it was funny.

[ghost-angel]

I doubt it too. I doubt they needed them. I don't need a dictionary to understand what is meant by the word "vitals." I included the links for the benefit of those who might profit by them.

My point is that I see every reason to think that when Mr. Peterson and Mr. MacDonald and whoever else was involved said "Vitals" they meant "Vitals" and no convincing reason to assume they meant something else.

Yes, well considering we have the same discussion in two threads on what exactly "vitals" means .... I'd say there's some different interpretations floating around regardless of what was originally meant.

From now on I'm defining Vitals as "Sinus Cavity"

[L. Marcus]

Which one? Or do you have a separate table to roll on?

[teh bunneh]

It's a nut-shot.

Well, nuts plus the surrounding 8" of territory, give or take.

teh_bunneh has spoken. Further debate is no longer necessary. :king:

[Dr. Anomaly]

It's a nut-shot.

Well, nuts plus the surrounding 8" of territory, give or take.

teh_bunneh has spoken. Further debate is no longer necessary. :king:

Given what an inch is in HERO terms, Bill... just HOW BIG are your... ah...? I mean... needing 8 (game-scale) inches of territory...!

[L. Marcus]

. . . Just had a flashback to BASEketball -- and I've never even seen that movie! :ugly:

[MordeanGrey]

13 is definitely the nads! Thus the reason you have a plate codpiece even if you're wearing leather armor! :nya:

[teh bunneh]

Given what an inch is in HERO terms, Bill... just HOW BIG are your... ah...? I mean... needing 8 (game-scale) inches of territory...!

It's a well-known fact that a bunny's erogenous zones extend roughly 50 feet in every direction. ;)

[Lucius]

Except, of course, for everything that's been pointed out about armor coverage,

Yes, that’s a relevant point. However, it’s also been pointed out that the arguments by armor coverage are ambiguous.



what's on either side of "13" on the chart,


Either we
1. Consider that relevant, in which case it follows that everyone in a Hero game is fighting with both hands on top of their heads, or
2. Acknowledge that it is irrelevant.



the inconsitency of a wildcard hit location with the rest of the system, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I’m not sure what you mean by “wild card.” It’s no wilder than the Head location not distinguishing eye from nose from jaw, or limb locations not differentiating left from right.



Yeah, except for that stuff, there's no other reason.


As I said: No convincing reason. The only real argument you have is the argument by armor, and I think the flaws in that one have already been pointed out.

Certainly as compared to the example I quoted from 1st Edition Fantasy Hero and the absolute lack (so far) of even a single counterexample from any prior Hero game.



All things considered, I think Location 13 is something like Hero's version of a critical hit. Meaning that by it's nature it's going to be somewhat abstract. (which shouldn't be a problem considering that in it's purest form Hero is a pretty darn abstract system, and it has to be in order to function as it's intended.)

An interesting and perhaps useful way of looking at it.


Lucius Alexander

Beating a dead palindromedary. Why? Because it refuses to lie down and shut up.

[Kristopher]

Yes, that’s a relevant point. However, it’s also been pointed out that the arguments by armor coverage are ambiguous.

"Pointed out" by those who want to dismiss it, sure.



Either we
1. Consider that relevant, in which case it follows that everyone in a Hero game is fighting with both hands on top of their heads, or
2. Acknowledge that it is irrelevant.


Or realize that if you want locations for the arms and hands, the numbers have to break somewhere. Other than that one break, they're contiguous down the body.

Never mind that you have 12 as the Stomach, and 14 as the Thighs, and nothing in between, if 13 is a Wildcard Hit Location. I guess that works if you're running a Four Color Comics Code campaign, and there's no acknowledgement of anything there. :rolleyes: If you don't want a distinct Hit Location for that area, just rewrite the table already.


I’m not sure what you mean by “wild card.” It’s no wilder than the Head location not distinguishing eye from nose from jaw, or limb locations not differentiating left from right.

The jaw is part of the head. There's a Hit Location for the head.

The nose is part of the head. There's a Hit Location for the head.

The eyes are in the head. There's a Hit Location for the head.

The femoral arteries are in the legs. There are Hit Locations for the legs.

The intestines are in the stomach*. There's a Hit Location for the stomach.

The heart is in the chest. There's a Hit Location for the Chest.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

The vitals are supposed to be all over the body, where there are already Hit Locations, and determined by "best SFX" by the GM? ? ? ? Having "Vitals" scattered all over the body is a wildcard, another way to hit locations that already have Hit Locations. Every part that's been listed off as being part of "Vitals" is already hitable with another result.

* Abdomen, not the organ itself. Gee, another instance of sloppy word choice that carried over at least to 4th Ed (5th on loan).


As I said: No convincing reason. The only real argument you have is the argument by armor, and I think the flaws in that one have already been pointed out.

If by "flaws" you mean "Um, yeah, uh, my sword could, uh...go in through the armpit and hit his heart! Yeah, that's what happens!" :rolleyes:

And I guess "convincing" has been redefined to mean "agrees with Lucius's predetermined posssition". :rolleyes:


Certainly as compared to the example I quoted from 1st Edition Fantasy Hero and the absolute lack (so far) of even a single counterexample from any prior Hero game.


Except for all the examples you've chosen to handwave away, sure.

[Lucius]

If by "flaws" you mean "Um, yeah, uh, my sword could, uh...go in through the armpit and hit his heart! Yeah, that's what happens!" :rolleyes:
.

Have you even been paying attention?

I'm referring to things like a Vest that is listed as covering location 13. If location 13 were what you claim it is, would a "vest" cover it?

I'm referring to the fact that there are examples from the sectional armor rules that support your position, and examples from the sectional armor rules that do NOT support your position. I've already expressed agreement with someone who said that those rules ought to be reworked and clarified. In any case it's not as if the sectional armor rules are clear and unambiguously in support of location 13 meaning "crotch." One person can point to "skirtplate" (whatever that is...) and another can point to "skirt" which covers location 14 but not 13 (or so it has been said on these threads - personally I haven't gone to look it up. Perhaps I should.)

As for the rest of your remarks, I will only say that I don't see the need to make this personal. I didn't write any Hero books, nor did I invent the English language or write a dictionary, so I can't take any responsibility for them.

Mr. Long has already weighed in on what location 13 means in the Current Regime, and that's about as official an answer as one can get on THAT topic.
So in so far as there is anything still in enough doubt to argue about, it is the question of: Does that answer clarify what was always intended by the game designers, or is it a change from what has gone before?

In support of the position that the current rule represents a departure, the only evidence is from the sectional armor rules, and that is hardly conclusive.

In support of the position that it merely represents a clarification, and that it was never intended that location 13 exclusively meant "crotch" we have

1. counterexamples from the sectional armor rules, such as a vest covering location 13, or the fact that most armor pieces that cover location 13 seem to cover most or all of the torso.

2. the name of the location is "vitals" which is perhaps not conclusive but I do consider compelling evidence. (Yes, they used "stomach" for "abdomen" but that is following a fairly common usage; "vitals" is not as far as I know a common euphemism for "crotch." )

3. the "boar hunt" example in first edition Fantasy Hero which clearly indicates that whatever ELSE location 13: Vitals meant to the designers of that game, it could include the heart.

All of which I've already pointed out....

Lucius Alexander

"So," asks the palindromedary, "Why are we beating this dead horse, again?"

pps (post palindromedary stuff) : because someone made some personal remark or other, and I took offense and reacted instead of realizing that such a reacion is counterproductive....but I've already typed it out so I'll post it anyway.

[Kristopher]

I honestly don't care about what's "intended in the rules". All I care about is what makes sense. Location 13 as a wildcard hit location doesn't make any sense. At all. In any way. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the system, and leads to odd bypasses of armor by mixing mechanics and SFX in exactly the wrong way. I'm not arguing from a "this is how it works" perspective, I'm arguing from a "does this work?" perspective.

And as you and others have claimed it's supposed to work, it does not work.

If I'm getting frustrated, it's because I keep saying "That doesn't work, it doesn't make sense, it's klunky and kludgey and out of sync with everything else" and the response I keep getting is "That's how it works."

[ghost-angel]

I've finally pinpointed it.

On the average person, a little low and to the left.

[Hugh Neilson]

I honestly don't care about what's "intended in the rules".

That's funny - your consistent argument that the sequential hit locations meant this was intended sure seemed to focus on what's "intended in the rules".

[phookz]

Personally, I always took it to mean the crotch, for the same reasons that Kristopher has pointed out.

Knowing that Steve Long has ruled that it is more abstract than that doesn't make sense to me. The hit location chart is about finding the location you hit, right? If the location you hit is supposed to be anywhere that is vital, just let the GM pick... well, I guess that works - it is in the spirit of the HERO rules. There are numerous instances where dramatic effect takes precedence over absolute realism. The flexibility given to the GM for this purpose is one of the things I like about HERO.

Myself, I like it as the crotch. It makes more sense when considering sectional armor to me. When and if I run a game again, I'll leave it at the crotch, with the same BODY and STUN multipliers, and not worry too much if it's not realistic, or exactly how the game is supposed to work. At the end of the day, the effect is basically the same, and I'm okay with that; YMMV.

[Kristopher]

That's funny - your consistent argument that the sequential hit locations meant this was intended sure seemed to focus on what's "intended in the rules".

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, it's more about "what the heck is between "thighs" and stomach" if 13 is this random thing that can hit all over the body?

EDIT: Plus "here's why I think many people have concluded that it was the groin".

[Lucius]

I honestly don't care about what's "intended in the rules". All I care about is what makes sense. Location 13 as a wildcard hit location doesn't make any sense. At all. In any way. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the system, and leads to odd bypasses of armor by mixing mechanics and SFX in exactly the wrong way. I'm not arguing from a "this is how it works" perspective, I'm arguing from a "does this work?" perspective.

And as you and others have claimed it's supposed to work, it does not work.

If I'm getting frustrated, it's because I keep saying "That doesn't work, it doesn't make sense, it's klunky and kludgey and out of sync with everything else" and the response I keep getting is "That's how it works."

Oh!

I think I understand you a little better know. And even why you'd be frustrated.

Of course, I disagree with your assessment that "this does not work."
I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you, unless it mainly has to do with the way sectional armor works (or fails to work) - and as far as that goes, I'm in agreement that it should be reworked.

As to the question you keep posing about "what's between stomach and legs?" - well, given that I for one don't think "stomach" means the organ but is intended to mean "the abdomen, the lower part of the torso" there is literally nothing between that and the legs. It's like asking what's between chest and stomach, or what's between shoulders and chest.

But I've been coming at this from a different perspective than you, and I think now that I really haven't been understanding you.

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary asks if there isn't an Automaton power of "No Hit Locations..."

[MorpheousXO]

My real problem with hit loc 13 is how close it is to average, and how much stun it does. I personally use the "crotch" area for it's location, but since it's so close to average, it was getting hit a LOT in the game I ran (that and stomach were the most common). It was getting very odd having everyone getting stabbed, whacked, and shot in the crotch, and as I said before, the barbarian PC got hit 4 times in a row, and was only still up and unstunned because of his boosted CON and STUN from raging. Even so he was nearly down.

For that reason it would make more sense as a wildcard spot. Also due to it's higher stun total I think it should be at least 2-3 places away from average.

Oh, and on the subject of what people commonly think Vitals means, when I told the Barbarian that he got hit in the vitals, he did the typical bending over saying "oooh, ouch" that guys do when thinking about getting hit in the danglies. And no, he'd never played HERO before no seen a graphic representation of the hit locs. That was just what he assumed vitals meant.

Anyways, I think I can agree that sectional armor needs to be revised. Maybe put vitals at loc 18 (or 3) so it can be a Critical Hit type location, and thus could be left unarmored without as much fear of it getting hit. As far as the crotch goes then, you could just include it with either thighs or stomach, or make a new entry for them and get rid of one of the leg entries.

[PhilFleischmann]

For those who actually take the question seriously, so far, by my count, on this thread, there have been:

8 who say it's the crotch/groin (I include myself in this count),
4 who say it's a "vital" area anywhere on the body,
8 who haven't expressed a clear opinion about it one way or the other.

Two to one in favor of the groin. Draw your own conclusions.

[Vondy]

Loins to lower abdominals.

[MorpheousXO]

OI! Ye hit me in the mommy-daddy button!

[Inu]

For those who actually take the question seriously, so far, by my count, on this thread, there have been:

8 who say it's the crotch/groin (I include myself in this count),
4 who say it's a "vital" area anywhere on the body,
8 who haven't expressed a clear opinion about it one way or the other.

Two to one in favor of the groin. Draw your own conclusions.
Put me down in favour of vital organs, not groin. This is based entirely on the BODY multiplier -- it doesn't make sense to me as anything other than a genuine vital organ hit. To have a groin hit do double BODY would be so ludicrously cartoonish that to have it be that way would produce such a disconnect in the system that it would actually harm my ability to enjoy a game with a group that used that interpretation. Every time someone got hit in 13 and interpreted it as groin, I would be wincing -- and not in sympathy.

[MorpheousXO]

I might end up just lowering the body and stun multiples a bit in the future. Either that or I'm moving them farther from average, so I guess we'll see. :drink:

[Alibear]

When I GM it's anything outside the head vital for life. Or whatever else makes more sense at the time. Heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. It can be the nads too if that makes more sense within the context of the attack.

[MorpheousXO]

Was just picturing how dibilitating a direct hit to the hip joint could be from a heavy mace... just an idea for the general area BESIDES the typical testicular fortitude spot, though (thankfully) not sure if that lives up to the damage mults or not...

[Vondy]

When I GM it's anything outside the head vital for life. Or whatever else makes more sense at the time. Heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. It can be the nads too if that makes more sense within the context of the attack.

There is a decent basis for your view: Merriem Webster:

vitals
One entry found for vitals.
Main Entry: vi·tals
Pronunciation: 'vI-t&lz
Function: noun plural
1 : vital organs (as the heart, liver, lungs, and brain)
2 : essential parts

The only reservation I have, linguistic correctness aside, is that mechanically many vital organs are located in other hit locations, and in most cases damage to them would be covered by the disabling or impairing tables for those locations (when used). This isn't a particularly strong objection on my part, just an observation.

[MorpheousXO]

There is a decent basis for your view: Merriem Webster:
(snip)
The only reservation I have, linguistic correctness aside, is that mechanically many vital organs are located in other hit locations, and in most cases damage to them would be covered by the disabling or impairing tables for those locations (when used). This isn't a particularly strong objection on my part, just an observation.

This is my main reason for thinking it as an actual area of the body rather than a conglomerate.

Really thinking about it, the multiples really should be lowered a bit.

[Alibear]

As noted earlier though. The vital organs are either located on the body or in the head. Now the brain is already locked away in the head.

The head that already has a X2 body and X5 stun. Why would it get that if it wasn't for the fact that your brain, one of your vital organs, is located there?

Why would a bulletproof vest have location 13 in it if not to cover the vitals?

Vest, to me, doesn't say 'body and dangly bits'.


If someone wants to specifically target the Heart, when I Gm, they need to hit location 13. That's how I've always done it. Same rule applies if they want to give someone a hefty boot in the nads.(and it isn't just the special effect of the martial kick) Location 13 is where those boys are kept too. (different armour coverage perhaps)


BTW. It's your game, do with it what you will.

[Alibear]

BTW why would getting shot in the shoulder be as fatal as being shot in the heart if the heart is in location 10 or 11?

Surely a bullet in the heart is more likely to be fatal than taking a hit in the old family jewels..

[katal3]

Well again, this is part of why I don't use hit-location it's easier and faster simply to interpete where the attack hit based on the damage output then rely on a table that takes time and will give you inconsistant results (like a blast of concentrated gravity hitting sombody in the hand and sending them flying 7")
As for location 13 being in the average range. If you were fighting sombody more then willing to maim and destroy you, would you (in general) aim for their shoulder or their heart (given the opportuntiy)?

[Bismark]

Following on from my earlier post of Hit Location 13 being the 'Lower Giblets', I would suggest that for attacks hitting the target from the rear, HitLocs 12 and 13 are swapped.

Location 13 then means the kidneys, etc., and 12 means the glutes (which are painful to sustain an injury to but rarely life-threatening; a good example being Byzantine Emperor Alexeios Komnenos who was stabbed in the buttock by a Pecheneg noble's lance:eek: and came away in reasonably decent shape).

A simple fix (my favourite kind) with minimal extra work for the poor GM, i.e., me :D

[Blue]

Generally it's always been presumed in my game that 13 is the genetalia. After all, it's the unlucky number, it's in the general sequence, and it's funny.

That last one is the main reason for most choices in my games.

[lemming]

I can't find fault in Blue's logic.

Most of the time, 13 is some sort of vitals shot. Unless it's funnier if it's in the groin.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Where is the elusive HitLoc 13? And is it actually worth worrying about?

Depends how much damage gets done.