What If? Empire Wins

[Asperion]

Here is an interesting concept - What if the Empire won during the battle over Endor during the final Star Wars movie? Could the Emperor/Darth Vader maintain control or would they loose it to some younger protege? Would the Jedi accept their fate or would there always be some undercurrent of resistance? I would like to hear your answers to these questions and feel free to add to these questions.

[Clonus]

The most likely "bad guy wins" outcomes at Endor are "Luke kills Vader in a rage, and succumbs to the Empire's mind control" and "Vader persuades Luke to join with him and kill the Emperor to take his place". In either case the Rebellion have been drawn out of hiding, committed their force to open battle and as usual when insurgents do that, have been annihilated. The new Deathstar can be completed without the convenient trick weakness. There are no Jedi left alive to "accept their fate", although I suppose it's likely that people will periodically try to reinvent it.

[Blue Jogger]

I'd like to argue that there would be a time after the Rebels fell where resistance is minimal (or nonexistence). And, who knows, maybe after the rebels fall, a few planets are destroyed, a coldwar-type peace is maintained and the Deathstar is mothballed. :p

"After 50 years of galactic peace, we reveal our newest space station for a new era, the Lifestar."

Of course, the players discover that it has more in common with the old Deathstar, including a forbidden weapon designed to destroy planets.

[Nolgroth]

Hmmmn. Depends on how fantastic the setting is/remains. If the setting even nods towards reality at that point, it would become quickly cost-prohibitive to maintain such a massive military. The core systems of the empire would of course maintain a pretty rigid structure, while the outer rim worlds would have some measure of independence, even if it is simply because it's too costly to have a huge force to subdue local outbreaks.

Instead, the Empire would probably settle their long-term control strategy to the new Death Star and maybe even a couple of others. The threat of a giant, planet-killing space station dropping out of hyperspace would keep the systems loyal and paying their taxes. The individual rights would probably be less abridged than in the core, though access to the best tech would be less available out there.

Now assuming that no outside power arose to challenge the empire, within a few generations it would become corrupt and decadent. Class-lines would become very pronounced, with the Haves controlling most of the economic flow and the Have-Nots becoming ever more oppressed. The many military cut-backs will incite a few bold leaders to create a few different rebellions. The emperor, either Palpatine, Vader, Darth Luke, or whomever is currently in position, would have to initially play one faction against the other in order to stall an overall civil ware. In fact, it might play out very much like the prequels sans the sudden and inexplicable death of the Jedi.

Rinse and repeat cycle until the resources of the entire galaxy are exhausted and the empire crumbles into several individual states. A dark age of isolationism will occur and the Jedi/Sith conflict will be lost to the annals of fairy tale and legend. Those that are Force-sensitive and display any unusual abilities will be hounded and killed, at first by those who don't want a return of super-powerful beings and then later because it has become a tradition (even religion perhaps) to do so.

The above could also happen much quicker if a powerful external force came into play, with massive resources being diverted to maintaining a war machine to fight off a force willing to take an a galaxy-spanning empire. Assuming the empire won, it might have exhausted its resources sooner than it would have with smaller scale conflicts.

Eventually, one some planet somewhere, a new order will form. Small at first, it will gradually increase in numbers. Now the question is; will the new order be more like Jedi or more like Sith. Will they be some sort of amalgamation of the two philosophies?

All this is made up of course, but it is one possible path.

[Blue Jogger]

Repped for the amalgamation idea. Dark Jedi Knights, they must constantly balance the two sides of the Force within themselves.

[Asperion]

During the Battle of Endor the Rebel Forces will loose most of their fighters and ships. However the leadership will survive and quietly disappear being hunted by the Empire as the most wanted people alive (especially Luke, Leia, Acbar, etc). These people will never again be able to form a new Rebellion but they will be quietly laying the seeds for some other group to rise up to destroy the Empire. Others like Han & Chewie would slip out and return to the life that they had before joining the Rebellion. The Jedi were never totally destroyed. They used their powers to aid the Rebellion but with no leadership such as the Rebellion they will also go into hiding and secretly build their numbers and power as the Sith had done during the Republic until they feel that they can openly face the Sith. This might take centuries as it took the Sith before.

As for the Empire itself, it would only continue to get bigger and more bloated. At first the dreaded military would be all that is needed to enforce the Imperial ways. As time goes on though they will develop a force that is above anyone and everyone except the Emperor, Vader, and other selected people. These people (all of whom are Sith) will be given access to any location and group that they desire to go, no questions save the ones that they ask. This group combined with the dreaded military (at least in theory) will be enough to destroy any and all resistance to Imperial rule.

[CSgeekHero]

Luke and Darth rule the galaxy. They build three more Deathstars so that each one is available in one quarter of the galaxy. The rebels are almost broken and Leia is hunted by Luke--"Are father betrayed us and our mother. Together we can destroy him and bring peace and order to the galaxy!"
Leia finds an old one armed hermit and he trains her, along with a few other young people who are strong with the Force, to be a Jedi. The hermit recounts the day when Anakin Skywalker betrayed the Jedi, cut off his arm, and allowed him to be nearly destroyed by the Emperor. Somehow, by the will of the Force, he survived. Jedi Leia along with Han, Chewie, the droids, and a few new knights put together a new rebellion to overthrow Emperor Darth Vader and his son, Darth Venom(Sorry, couldn't come up with any better name).

You can guess who's the hermit.

[ajackson]

The most likely "bad guy wins" outcomes at Endor are "Luke kills Vader in a rage, and succumbs to the Empire's mind control" and "Vader persuades Luke to join with him and kill the Emperor to take his place".
How about:
"Vader doesn't betray the Emperor"
"The Storm Troopers on Endor display competence"

[Clonus]

How about:
"Vader doesn't betray the Emperor"
"The Storm Troopers on Endor display competence"

Not likely at all. Vader was intent on betraying the Emperor from the moment he knew who Luke was and the Storm Troopers could only display competence if the dark side of the Force was dominant.

[Manic Typist]

You can guess who's the hermit.

Actually, I have no clue. The only ones who I know lost an arm were Luke and Vader, and you have both ruling the galaxy.

[Nolgroth]

Mace Windu.

[Manic Typist]

Ahhhhh.

Thank you.

[Sketchpad]

Check out the Infinverse line of comics by Dark Horse ... they tell "What If?" stories for each movie...

[moquif]

I was wondering what would happen if the Borg invaded the Senate World (whatever it's called) during the battle at the beginning of Episode III. The drones would easily be controlled and assimilated. Anakin and Kenobi are captured as they exit hyperspace and suddenly every borg out there gets a massive infusion of midiclorians (sp) and knowledge on how to use the Force.

[CSgeekHero]

Check out the Infinverse line of comics by Dark Horse ... they tell "What If?" stories for each movie...
I'll check 'em out.

[ajackson]

Not likely at all. Vader was intent on betraying the Emperor from the moment he knew who Luke was and the Storm Troopers could only display competence if the dark side of the Force was dominant.
Yes, Vader was intent on betraying the Emperor, but once he determined that Luke was unwilling to join him on the Dark Side, he certainly could have decided to just kill Luke (particularly if he somehow found out about Leia).

[Clonus]

I was wondering what would happen if the Borg invaded the Senate World (whatever it's called) during the battle at the beginning of Episode III. The drones would easily be controlled and assimilated. Anakin and Kenobi are captured as they exit hyperspace and suddenly every borg out there gets a massive infusion of midiclorians (sp) and knowledge on how to use the Force.

I read an adequate Sailor Moon/Star Trek crossover which had a great scene early on. The Borg have abducted the Sailor Moon villain and tell him that he's going to be assimilated and resistance is futile. The villain smiles and says, "Oh, I quite agree. Resistance is futile." Then he assimilates them.

[Nolgroth]

Repped for the amalgamation idea. Dark Jedi Knights, they must constantly balance the two sides of the Force within themselves.Read this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38026) for my belief about Jedi. At first it is a pretty pointless (but fun) discussion of Commando vs. Jedi and then my last couple of posts gets into my philosophy of the Force. That is the background for the amalgamation concept.

[phookz]

Luke and Darth rule the galaxy. They build three more Deathstars so that each one is available in one quarter of the galaxy. The rebels are almost broken and Leia is hunted by Luke--"Are father betrayed us and our mother. Together we can destroy him and bring peace and order to the galaxy!"
Leia finds an old one armed hermit and he trains her, along with a few other young people who are strong with the Force, to be a Jedi. The hermit recounts the day when Anakin Skywalker betrayed the Jedi, cut off his arm, and allowed him to be nearly destroyed by the Emperor. Somehow, by the will of the Force, he survived. Jedi Leia along with Han, Chewie, the droids, and a few new knights put together a new rebellion to overthrow Emperor Darth Vader and his son, Darth Venom(Sorry, couldn't come up with any better name).

You can guess who's the hermit.

Well done and rep'd. I didn't guess the hermit as Mace until I read below, but I think your ideas are the most like the original source material.

[CSgeekHero]

Thanks

[Badger]

Not likely at all. Vader was intent on betraying the Emperor from the moment he knew who Luke was and the Storm Troopers could only display competence if the dark side of the Force was dominant.



Well maybe right on Vader. The reason the Stormtroopers were idiots was because of the will of Lucas. So.........


Since they should have been competent. And the Ewoks shouldnt have been god-like cavemen...........



I am giving the Ewoks the benefit of the doubt and will consider them good guerilla fighter types. So, at best, those Imperials who venture into the forest will meet with some dificulty, but should hold. If they armor is actual armor they want suffer many casualties other than stragglers being knocked out and overwhelmed. One wonders how a bunch of stone-agers put up all those traps overnight. So I am taking all those log traps used to take out the walkers away (I'm a bastard i know :eg: ) So, with the exception of Chewbacca comandeering a walker nothing affects them. And when Chewie commandeers that walker he just gets rid of 3 or 4 before they figure it out and the other walkers swarm him. Eventually, the Ewoks are forced to pull back into the forest. All the rebels left in the area of the base are now helpless as the Imperials move back into finish them off. If Han does figure out how to hotwire the door. He and the (injured) Leia are severely outnumbered by the troops still within. The base is neve taken over and never blown up.


In space, the Rebels are being picked off. Once that base is shown to be able to fire itself, the Rebels need to think hard do we keep giving them down there a chance, or o we wisely pull out of here and fight another day. Regardless, they are now nulled as a legitimate fighting force. If they pull out, they can still be a nuisance though they will need to scatter for awhile. And their leaders (Mothma, Ackbar, Madine, Probably Calrissian, earliers Riekan, and Dodonna) are a liability as they will be hunted down, they will need to go into hiding in sparsely populated backwaters (i.e. Dagobah-types). New leadership takes over, largely splintered into factions with autonomy. Maybe in a couple of years they can reunite and do something. If they stay and try to fight on. It turns into Custer in Space. And barring those who didnt show up in time at the rendevous point (big galaxy, so they probably were a few) and those who somehow make it out they are a virtual non-entity. What would be left will be a just a "fly in the house". In this case will be a generation.

On the station, who knows? does Vader and Luke unite? It really doesnt matter all that much unless you think Vader/Luke will be much more lenient on Rebels than Palpatine/Vader.

So, the Rebellion is either scattered or virtually routed? The Empire's grip is solidified. With the Death Star in operation, the military can gradually be reduced. Who knows maybe without the Rebellion as a thorn? The galaxy prospers econmically. The Emperor could be revered (whomever that may be). Eventually the Emperor dies, Vader (if not Emperor takes over) Vader and LUke die. If Luke has no children then the Empire starts to collapses maybe that little band of Rebels will reappear in a new form.........

[Clonus]

Well maybe right on Vader. The reason the Stormtroopers were idiots was because of the will of Lucas. So.........


Since they should have been competent. And the Ewoks shouldnt have been god-like cavemen...........


What the Ewoks should have been is Wookies. Their attack should have been a carefully planned long term uprising by slave labourers who had been helping build the second Death Star and who could easily rip apart several Storm Troopers each. But, merchandising corruption aside, as long as the Force is with the good guys, they'll perform better in combat than you could reasonably expect. Those are the rules of the universe. If they weren't, a rowboat couldn't have blown up a battleship in the first place and the story wouldn't have gotten to the third movie.

But whatever. Assuming the empire wins I see these options:

1. Luke (or Leia) ascends to the throne with Vader as his or her eminence gris. Guided by Vader's teachings, he or she founds a dynasty which lasts for several generations. Conceivably Luke AND Leia ascend to the throne as a married couple. Keep it in the family, that's the Skywalker motto.
2. Luke (or Leia) is adopted as the Emperor's heir and eventually kills him because he's like really old and sick and probably about ready to cack off. Guided by the Emperor's teachings, they either don't reproduce or they leave any kids they have to be raised by others. They may be possible candidate to be adopted as heirs later, but only if nobody with more juice comes along. Note that the historical Roman Empire went through several Emperors who were only their predecessor's child by adoption.
3. Luke, the Emperor, Vader and Leia all die, and the galaxy collapses into warring factions.
4. Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and escapes. The galaxy collapses into warring factions, but Luke fairly quickly rises to the top thanks to his powers, and he reunites the Empire. However without a mentor, his Empire isn't likely to last.

[Badger]

Well, if they had made it Wookies, I'd believe they could be the god-like cavemen. ;) Come on, let me get my cheap shots in on Lucas. :D

[Asperion]

Assuming the empire wins I see these options:

4. Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and escapes. The galaxy collapses into warring factions, but Luke fairly quickly rises to the top thanks to his powers, and he reunites the Empire. However without a mentor, his Empire isn't likely to last.

Vader was extremely well trained by the Emperor (who planned on Vader taking over anyway). As a result Vader takes over the reigns of the Empire and makes it much more threatening. In the movies Vader killed simply because he disagreed with the general's decisions. Imagine him as the Emperor (Emperor Vader?). What's worse that a Death Star showing up at your system - Emperor Vader saying "we need to talk". The Rebels will become those pesty flys that are all around but will not get financial assistance since all the money will be in Emperor Vader's treasury. No one else will possess any real money, this includes groups like the Huts, Metal Beings, Bankers, etc.

[Nyrath]

There was an interesting short story called "Retreat to the Stars" by Leigh Brackett (1941). In it, a Nazi-like totalitarian state has the entire solar system in its iron grip. A desperate group of freedom fighters live in secret bases on asteroids and in desolate areas on sparsely populated planets.

But finally, with their backs to the wall, the freedom fighters realize that they cannot win given the current situation. Therefore, they build a star ship and escape the solar system entirely. Some day, decades from now, they will have completed building an armada that will return to liberate the solar system.

Collected in Adventures in Tomorrow, 1968 , Kendell Foster Crossen

[FenrisUlf]

There was an interesting short story called "Retreat to the Stars" by Leigh Brackett (1941). In it, a Nazi-like totalitarian state has the entire solar system in its iron grip. A desperate group of freedom fighters live in secret bases on asteroids and in desolate areas on sparsely populated planets.

But finally, with their backs to the wall, the freedom fighters realize that they cannot win given the current situation. Therefore, they build a star ship and escape the solar system entirely. Some day, decades from now, they will have completed building an armada that will return to liberate the solar system.

Collected in Adventures in Tomorrow, 1968 , Kendell Foster Crossen


Oddly amusing coincidence, considering that Ms Brackett wrote the screenplay for 'The Empire Strikes Back', or so I've always heard.

[Badger]

So what happens if Jabba wins at Carkoon? :doi:

(ok, ok, I still a little peeved that Lucas killed off my man Fett for a burp joke. :mad: )

[Manic Typist]

Just so you know... Boba Fett doesn't die.

[Badger]

Just so you know... Boba Fett doesn't die.

(sigh)

Expanded Universe: No

Lucas Universe (what he insist is canon): Yes

:rolleyes:

[MorpheousXO]

Yup, sadly, true canon = fett's vette is out of commission. I like that idea that he survives though, makes things interesting.

(and as a note, in the comentary for the DVD of RotJ, Lucas said he thought about adding a scene of Fett climbing out, since he killed him not knowing he'd be so popular, but decided against it)

[tgrandjean]

Actually, I kinda remember during an interview at one point during the making of the prequels that Lucas was pretty much distressed over the popularity of Vadar, Fett, etc. He felt as villains they should be reviled and hated, not thought of as 'cool' and so sought to have their deaths be as ignomanious as possible.

Anyway, one possibility that I like is 1) the force field generator on Endor isn't destroyed 2) Vader kills the Emperor etc. as usual 3) But the Death Star is still intact, the rebel Fleet is still entrapped and destroyed. Given this case, the Admirals divide up the galaxy but cannot muster the resources for large scale constructions (such as the SSDs and Deathstar) and a new group of rebels form fighting a fractured Empire. On the one hand, it's an Empire without guidance from the darkside of the Force. On the other, no insane leadership.
If Luke survives (unlikely as that is) he's left with a shattered alliance fighting a hydra.

[Badger]

Wait a minute. He wanted us the hate Vader and Fett? But yet wanted us to like the ewoks? Sweet Bejeebers. No, wonder the prequels sucked.

Course, he did finally succeed in getting us to hate Vader. But, it was the Anakin version we grew to hate. ;)



Note: I mean when I was 7 years old I liked Vader-Fett/hated Ewoks. :(

[tgrandjean]

Yup. It's why he killed off Fett as he did in Jedi, killed off Darth Maul in the 1rst movie, gave Darth Tryannus such a minor role (be evil, gloat, two fight scenes), and killed off Grievious with of all things- a blaster. Meanwhile, Jar-Jar lives though all three prequels.
But, I've got to admit that he tells a good story- poorly.
Nothing a better script/dialog writer couldn't have fixed... but Lucas wanted total control so this is what he got- wooden writing and bloated SFX.

[Peregrine]

As much as I despise the Expanded Universe, and especially the Vong, I have to point out that, had the Empire survived intact (which a victory at Endor would have ensured), the Vong invasion would have found not the politically and militarily divided galaxy which they were able to exploit for so long, but a unified and militarily strong Empire, one which relied not at all on Force-wielders for its protection.

In fact, given the storyline of the Expanded Universe, I have considered the possibility that the Sith, at some point in their lineage (perhaps as late as Palpatine himself), foresaw a Force-immune/-null threat to the galaxy. Recognizing that the reliance on the Jedi for protection was in fact a weakness when the coming enemy was Force-null, they sought to remove the Jedi and cause the galaxy to develop the ability to defend itself without resorting to Force-users. The latter, of course, required a war to justify building (and bloodying) a galactic military; that the former was facilitated by that same war was merely the result of excellent Sith foresight and planning.

"And it would have worked, too, if it weren't for those darn (Skywalker) kids!"

[Badger]

Yup. It's why he killed off Fett as he did in Jedi, killed off Darth Maul in the 1rst movie, gave Darth Tryannus such a minor role (be evil, gloat, two fight scenes), and killed off Grievious with of all things- a blaster. Meanwhile, Jar-Jar lives though all three prequels.
But, I've got to admit that he tells a good story- poorly.
Nothing a better script/dialog writer couldn't have fixed... but Lucas wanted total control so this is what he got- wooden writing and bloated SFX.


Lucas, dude, the trio of Grevious, Maul, Dooku were THE ONLY good things about the prequels. Now for my alternate.......


A few minutes in on Phantom Menace.


Jar-Jar: Yousa Jedi

*Qui-Gon Badger lights up the saber beheads the Gungan goof*

QG Badger: Hey, this dark side thing is fun. :rolleyes:


*Badger's trio walks up*


QG Badger: So guys, ready to rule the galaxy?

Dooku: But, there can only be 2, master and apprentice.

QG Badger: Umm.....yeah......ummm that's just stupid. Come on guys we can beat that old man and that whiney @$$ pod racer, soon to be brooding angster of everything. 4 of us to 2 we can do it!

*the 3 discuss it sure*

Dooku: Sure, sounds reasonable.

Lucas: Cut, cut what is going on, you arent supposed to kill Jar-Jar, you supposed to go to Tatooine and find Anakin the one born from midiclorians. Dooku, Grevious you arent even supposed to be in this movie. *gives Badger script.*

*Badger reads script*

Badger: WTF?!! Are you stoned? Non, no you cant be. Even someone stoned out of their mind completely cant think sh!t this dumb up. I dont even understand WTF you are going with this made of chlorine stuff

Lucas: Midiclorians. You idiot

Badger: What the (bleep) ever

*beheads Lucas*

NGD: You saved the prequels, yay!!!!

:king: :doi: :doi: :doi:

[starblaze]

Hmmmn. Depends on how fantastic the setting is/remains. If the setting even nods towards reality at that point, it would become quickly cost-prohibitive to maintain such a massive military. The core systems of the empire would of course maintain a pretty rigid structure, while the outer rim worlds would have some measure of independence, even if it is simply because it's too costly to have a huge force to subdue local outbreaks.

Instead, the Empire would probably settle their long-term control strategy to the new Death Star and maybe even a couple of others. The threat of a giant, planet-killing space station dropping out of hyperspace would keep the systems loyal and paying their taxes. The individual rights would probably be less abridged than in the core, though access to the best tech would be less available out there.

Now assuming that no outside power arose to challenge the empire, within a few generations it would become corrupt and decadent. Class-lines would become very pronounced, with the Haves controlling most of the economic flow and the Have-Nots becoming ever more oppressed. The many military cut-backs will incite a few bold leaders to create a few different rebellions. The emperor, either Palpatine, Vader, Darth Luke, or whomever is currently in position, would have to initially play one faction against the other in order to stall an overall civil ware. In fact, it might play out very much like the prequels sans the sudden and inexplicable death of the Jedi.

Rinse and repeat cycle until the resources of the entire galaxy are exhausted and the empire crumbles into several individual states. A dark age of isolationism will occur and the Jedi/Sith conflict will be lost to the annals of fairy tale and legend. Those that are Force-sensitive and display any unusual abilities will be hounded and killed, at first by those who don't want a return of super-powerful beings and then later because it has become a tradition (even religion perhaps) to do so.

The above could also happen much quicker if a powerful external force came into play, with massive resources being diverted to maintaining a war machine to fight off a force willing to take an a galaxy-spanning empire. Assuming the empire won, it might have exhausted its resources sooner than it would have with smaller scale conflicts.

Eventually, one some planet somewhere, a new order will form. Small at first, it will gradually increase in numbers. Now the question is; will the new order be more like Jedi or more like Sith. Will they be some sort of amalgamation of the two philosophies?

All this is made up of course, but it is one possible path.


That's the problem with Empires, they get too top-heavy.