Increasing Target Visibility

[SableWyvern]

How to build a power that places an aura around a target (especially an invisible or desolidified one)?

My first thought was Images UAA, but I have a feeling that that is a little too potent for the low cost.

The most obvious alternative is a dispel or suppress, which should work reasonbly well with Invisibility, but not so much with desol, where only the visual component of desol should be affected.

Thoughts?

[Comic]

It sounds like the intention is a cosmetic transform.. which I understand is Transform.

Optionally, drain/dispel/suppress Invisibility and Concealment.

Really optionally, Change Environment, Usable against Other?

[SableWyvern]

Yeah, I'm just concerned that a simple Transform is a very cheap ability if it renders invisible and desolidified targets effectively visible.

If the consensus is that this is not the case, then it certainly seems the simplest method of acheiving the desired effect.

[Gideon]

How to build a power that places an aura around a target (especially an invisible or desolidified one)?

My first thought was Images UAA, but I have a feeling that that is a little too potent for the low cost.

The most obvious alternative is a dispel or suppress, which should work reasonbly well with Invisibility, but not so much with desol, where only the visual component of desol should be affected.

Thoughts?

Question:

What effect would a visible aura do to a desolid character? Desolid does not make a person invisible or less capable of being seen in any way. Also (as far as I understand desolid) you can still target the character with dispell, drain or suppress while desolid.

So I would simply by it as a dispell or suppress to invisibility.

[ghost-angel]

What's the end affect of the aura? Just to make them seen?

Suppress or Dispel on Invisibility.
Images on Desolidification.

simplest answers really.

[GAZZA]

It could be argued that it would reveal no more than the hex of the target, and that you'd still have to try and locate them more precisely with a non-targetting sense to avoid the usual penalties. At most, I'd say that unless you define it as a Dispel or Suppress, then all you're doing is removing the need for that non-targetting roll (ie you'd still have 1/2 OCV to hit, and be 1/2 DCV at range/-1 DCV hand to hand against them). This is assuming of course that you don't have an appropriate targetting sense that does see through it.

Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.

This question can actually be more generalised - what penalties, if any, do you have to target someone that is Invisible but who has just used some power that does not have Invisible Power Effects? It's more or less the same question as giving them an aura (except that they have, in effect, given themselves the aura).

[ghost-angel]

On the other hand - you need to see them to target them with anything to begin with.

[SableWyvern]

Desolid does not make a person invisible or less capable of being seen in any way.

Good point. My mistake.


On the other hand - you need to see them to target them with anything to begin with.

Yep, the power itself will suffer all the usual problems with targeting invisible. I may make it AoE, which will make it a bit easier to use.


Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.

I like that idea. Unfortunately, in this case, the fact that it circumvents the intial targeting problem makes it an inappropriate solution.

Anyway, it looks like Dispel or Supress is the way to go. Thanks.

[Doc Democracy]

Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.


The limitation of an enhanced sense, UBO is that you have to be able to provide that to everyone who should be able to see the aura. Mechanically it is more of a stretch than creating an aura.

I'm not sure that cosmetic transform is good as I would expect my invisibility to affect anything intrinsically mine - if it was not a power I (or someone else) was actively using then I would expect that aura to become invisible too. I'm not sure what the relationship to BODY would be either.

Personally I like the idea of the invisibility drain with the special effect of placing an aura around the target. To make the power complete though I think I would have it in a multipower with cosmetic transform which would allow non-invisible characters to gain an aura as well. The switch between invisibility suppress and transform would be No Conscious Control (but essentially valueless as it doesn't limit the use of the power).


Doc

[SableWyvern]

So, if I go with Suppress Invisibility, is -1/4 a fair limitation for "vs sight group invisibility only"?

[Hyper-Man]

You might want to take a look at the Glitterdust conversion debate on this old Fantasy Hero thread:

Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell (1st - 2nd Lvl)
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1270968#post1270968

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271214&postcount=9
21 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 109 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (87 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 18) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Linked (Suppress Invisibility; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) - END=[1 cc]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271245&postcount=15
a few more thoughts to consider...

Detect built as part of the Sight Group wouldn't actually work against Invisibility vs. Sight. It would actually need to be based on a sense group not affected by the Invisibility. edit.. also Detect by itself is not a Targeting sense.

Continuing Charge 1 Turn in HERO (12 seconds) seems a bit quick since I believe a Turn in DnD is a bit longer (1 minute?) unless that has also changed.

Here's another alternative to Detect:

40 I Can See Invisible People!: Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group), *Range, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (81 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Invisibile targets (magical based Invisibility and/or Images) (-1) - END=0

* Note, the "Range" portion of Spatial Awareness is a part of that power that must be purchased when SpAw is not built as part of a normally 'ranged' sense group like sight or hearing. It is not the same as the Ranged Advantage.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272416&postcount=35

[Killer Shrike]

Are you trying to do Faerie Fire?

5 Faerie Fire: Sight Group Images, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Rings Target in Glowing Light (-1), 1 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1)


From my Drow (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/Elf/ElfDrow.aspx) Package

The main problem is if you can't see them to target them in the first place. However you could add AoE Accurate to the build, make a Non-Targeting PER check, and have a go at it like that with pretty decent odds.

[SableWyvern]

Are you trying to do Faerie Fire?

5 Faerie Fire: Sight Group Images, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Rings Target in Glowing Light (-1), 1 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1)


From my Drow (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/Elf/ElfDrow.aspx) Package

The main problem is if you can't see them to target them in the first place. However you could add AoE Accurate to the build, make a Non-Targeting PER check, and have a go at it like that with pretty decent odds.
That's pretty much my initial idea exactly.

You seem to be the odd one out suggesting that it's a fair counter to invisibility, however.

[Comic]

Pro's and cons:

Pro: Does ruin Invisibility vs. Sight group.

Cons:
1. As Suppress/dispel/drain Invisibility - also has the effect of tagging visible people, so can be used to tell which one is the shapeshifter, and which duplicate hit you. Ruins disguise, concealment, shadowing, too.

This is why I suggested Transform, as opposed to Suppress. It depends how you intend to use it. If it is Suppress, it may need the +2 advantage 'all visibility-dependent powers/skills/effects'.

[Killer Shrike]

That's pretty much my initial idea exactly.

You seem to be the odd one out suggesting that it's a fair counter to invisibility, however.

Well...it doesn't make them visible. It does make them locatable, which for purposes of targeting will generally be good enough assuming you just want to shoot them and not get too fancy.

[Hyper-Man]

Well...it doesn't make them visible. It does make them locatable, which for purposes of targeting will generally be good enough assuming you just want to shoot them and not get too fancy.

Well, according to Steve Long Images will not work that way. My example covered every possible angle I could think of and still got shot down.

see: Images AOE UAA vs. Invisibility question
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56618

[Killer Shrike]

{shrugs} Add that to the list of things I don't agree with Steve about. Particularly sans a justification for why it wouldnt work.

[Hyper-Man]

{shrugs} Add that to the list of things I don't agree with Steve about. Particularly sans a justification for why it wouldnt work.

What if a character had Invisibility with the Inherent Advantage? It would be more difficult to bring down via Suppress but Images would be unaffected.

[Killer Shrike]

What if a character had Invisibility with the Inherent Advantage? It would be more difficult to bring down via Suppress but Images would be unaffected.

...edge case what?

Anyway, the invis isnt being affected by limming them w/ Images -- just the inability to target them.

You could do the same thing w/ some versions of CE as well -- the classic see the invisible guy when they get rained on shtick. They're still invisible, you can't see them, but you can see an outline of where they are.

[Hyper-Man]

...edge case what?

Anyway, the invis isnt being affected by limming them w/ Images -- just the inability to target them.

You could do the same thing w/ some versions of CE as well -- the classic see the invisible guy when they get rained on shtick. They're still invisible, you can't see them, but you can see an outline of where they are.

That sounds like more of a limitation of the Invisibility than an attribute of the rain or dust caused by the CE. Invisibility with a Hologram based sfx could conceivably be immune to such a tactic.

Btw, I probably wouldn't have a big issue with Images or CE being used this way for a one time use (like a brick throwing a car to get AOE) in a game. I wouldn't argue the point during play. I limit that behavior to this forum. :D

[Killer Shrike]

That sounds like more of a limitation of the Invisibility than an attribute of the rain or dust caused by the CE. Invisibility with a Hologram based sfx could conceivably be immune to such a tactic.

Btw, I probably wouldn't have a big issue with Images or CE being used this way in a game. I wouldn't argue the point during play. I limit that behavior to this forum. :D

Well...consider...I don't have my book but as memory serves the Invis Power specifically does not work vs touch. The invisible person is solid, fills volume, has mass, and has tactility. There is a surface area involved and is still in relationship with the physical world. So, I don't see how SFX would allow a form of Invis using the actual Invis Power that was also effectively invisible to touch, does not appear to interact with the physical world, and allows the masking of the characters actual volume.

[Zeropoint]

Easy--your super-sophisticated hologram generator creates a visual of the rain falling through the space occupied by your body, and hides the water running down/splashing off your body.

[Hyper-Man]

Easy--your super-sophisticated hologram generator creates a visual of the rain falling through the space occupied by your body, and hides the water running down/splashing off your body.

Exactly.
The Invisibility is not working vs. Touch. It is just hiding the visible effects of being touched by something other than another character.

[ghost-angel]

The only reason I really disagree with using Images:AoE is that you're targeting the area, not the invisible person.

Does the Area know to put light around an unperceivable object? How exactly? It would require a certain level of meta-gaming SFX to do so IMO.

[SableWyvern]

The only reason I really disagree with using Images:AoE is that you're targeting the area, not the invisible person.

Does the Area know to put light around an unperceivable object? How exactly? It would require a certain level of meta-gaming SFX to do so IMO.
In what essential way does that differ from any other AoE attack?

[ghost-angel]

In what essential way does that differ from any other AoE attack?

Other AoE attacks aren't seeking to downplay, negate or otherwise make ineffective another Power. If the Images don't care if you're a visible target or not it doesn't matter. This use of Images is specifically geared towards non-visible targets.

Basically, you're trying to use Images as a form of Suppression. Isn't one of the meta-rules of the game to not use one Power to perform the function of another Power?

[SableWyvern]

Basically, you're trying to use Images as a form of Suppression. Isn't one of the meta-rules of the game to not use one Power to perform the function of another Power?

Well, the intent is to create an aura around all targets in the AoE, regardless of their visibility. Making invisible targets detectable is one of the most obvious applications of this, but certainly not the only one.

Nevertheless, I see your point.

For the moment, I think I'm going to allow this in my game, and give a -1OCV to hit affected invisible targets, and -1DCV vs melee attacks from affected invisible targets.

[ghost-angel]

Well, the intent is to create an aura around all targets in the AoE, regardless of their visibility. Making invisible targets detectable is one of the most obvious applications of this, but certainly not the only one.

Nevertheless, I see your point.

For the moment, I think I'm going to allow this in my game, and give a -1OCV to hit affected invisible targets, and -1DCV vs melee attacks from affected invisible targets.

Is an "Invisible Target" really a target for this particular application?


Personally - I do feel this use of Images is trying to be Suppression. I wouldn't allow it, it's the wrong mechanic for the desired effect.

[SableWyvern]

Is an "Invisible Target" really a target for this particular application?


Personally - I do feel this use of Images is trying to be Suppression. I wouldn't allow it, it's the wrong mechanic for the desired effect.
As I said, I do see your point.

The main reason I'm taking a different stance to you is because the power, as originally envisioned, shouldn't only work on invisible targets, and I don't feel that, when starting with Suppression, that the cost and effort required to add further utility is commensurate with the return for that cost/effort.

As long as there are some experienced HERO gamers (such as Killer Shrike) who agree with this approach, I'm willing to give it a go. (Which, to be clear, isn't to say that I consider his opinions to be inherently superior to the many other experienced members on the forums, including yourself.)

I will keep an eye on the power and see how things go. I will be making it clear to my players going into the game that everything is subject to change as we gain a better understanding of the system and its interactions (and, similarly, the players will be free to make their own adjustments to their characters for the same reasons).

[Hyper-Man]

As I said, I do see your point.

The main reason I'm taking a different stance to you is because the power, as originally envisioned, shouldn't only work on invisible targets, and I don't feel that, when starting with Suppression, that the cost and effort required to add further utility is commensurate with the return for that cost/effort.

As long as there are some experienced HERO gamers (such as Killer Shrike) who agree with this approach, I'm willing to give it a go. (Which, to be clear, isn't to say that I consider his opinions to be inherently superior to the many other experienced members on the forums, including yourself.)

I will keep an eye on the power and see how things go. I will be making it clear to my players going into the game that everything is subject to change as we gain a better understanding of the system and its interactions (and, similarly, the players will be free to make their own adjustments to their characters for the same reasons).

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages when he encounters your Image based suppress of Invisibility? The character paid for a defense that now doesn't apply.

Here's another alternative from the 3.5 conversion thread you might consider:

21 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 105 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (61 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -5 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (22 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) [Notes: The -5 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

Here's a cheaper version:

16 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate #2: (Total: 83 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 11) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash 2d6, Explosion (+1/2) (15 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

and here's an easier to read format via the List feature of HD:

Glitterdust [Conjuration], all slots OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=
11 1) Look! He's Glowing!: Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4) - END=[1 cc]
3 2) Look! He's Glowing!: Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]
4 3) Poof!: Sight Group Flash 2d6, Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/4) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) - END=[1]

[GAZZA]

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages when he encounters your Image based suppress of Invisibility? The character paid for a defense that now doesn't apply.
Well, yes, but...

Consider the character who has bought a "No Sense Group" Targetting sense, and buys it Usable By Others At Range, with the special effect that the others see the invisible character outlined by glitterdust. That character has also bypassed Difficult To Dispel or Inherent as well.

Not quite the same thing, granted, but the point is that there is often more than one way to do things in Hero.

[Hyper-Man]

Well, yes, but...

Consider the character who has bought a "No Sense Group" Targetting sense, and buys it Usable By Others At Range, with the special effect that the others see the invisible character outlined by glitterdust. That character has also bypassed Difficult To Dispel or Inherent as well.

Not quite the same thing, granted, but the point is that there is often more than one way to do things in Hero.

Buying any sense besides what the Invisibility affects and putting Targeting is a legitimate way around Invisibility. If the player tells the GM he wants FULL Invisibility however and doesn't have the opportunity to include the "No Sense Group" and then later uses that loophole against the player it likely would piss off the player.

[Hyper-Man]

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).

[GAZZA]

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).
An arguably better way would be to just define the Suppress as working against "any special effect that makes you invisible", with the appropriate +1/4 advantage.

[SableWyvern]

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages

I should note that the aura is to be a PC's power, so this kind of objection is irrelevant in this specific circumstance. If the aura was designed to bypass a PC's invisibility, I would be more leery of allowing it.

[GAZZA]

Buying any sense besides what the Invisibility affects and putting Targeting is a legitimate way around Invisibility. If the player tells the GM he wants FULL Invisibility however and doesn't have the opportunity to include the "No Sense Group" and then later uses that loophole against the player it likely would piss off the player.
Yeah, agreed. I was kind of annoyed looking through the UNTIL Superpowers DB at all the no sense group custom senses they made - I'm old enough to remember when that sort of sense was rare... ;)

[GAZZA]

I should note that the aura is to be a PC's power, so this kind of objection is irrelevant in this specific circumstance. If the aura was designed to bypass a PC's invisibility, I would be more leery of allowing it.
Yeah, much easier just to buy a custom sense. ;)

[ghost-angel]

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).

And now we come to the most important part of setting up a game:

You should define how certain things work within the aspect of a game to keep consistency.

If your Invisiblity is: Invisible:Sight Group then I suggest you make your Glitterdust build as Images plus Suppress:InvisSightGroup.

If your Invisibility is Images:-10Perception then I suggest you build Glitterdust as Images:+10Perception

I see problems simply letting Images act as a Suppress.

[Captain Obvious]

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is, but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and DCV penalties involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.

[Hyper-Man]

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is, but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and DCV penalties involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.

It might not be obvious, but seeing where someone is can impact the chance to hit someone because of AOE attacks. Just knowing the general group of hexes that a target is in can make a huge difference regardless of DCV.

Detect is a viable way around Invisibility as long as it's based on a Sense Group not affected by the Invisibility. And if it's not associated on a group that is ranged or targeting by default those effects would need to be purchased as well.

examples vs. Sight Group Invisibility:

Legal
32 I See Invisible People!: Detect Invisibility A Class Of Things 11- (Mystic Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense, Targeting

NOT Legal
15 I See Invisible People!: Detect Invisibility A Class Of Things 11- (Sight Group), Discriminatory, Analyze

The first example costs 17 more points because it is not part of the Sight Group.

[Captain Obvious]

I wouldn't see that as an unreasonable use of the power. It's easier to hit an Invisible guy with an AoE attack, Images or no. It's also not too convenient to be shooting off fireballs at Inviso when he's fighting hand to hand with your homie Dragon Fist.

Pairing this use of Images up with an AoE attack is a pretty effective use of powers, but I don't see it as unbalancing, unless your whole campaign revolves around invisible villains.

[SirViss]

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is, but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and DCV penalties involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.

To allow Suppress to have this same effect, you could just put a Limitation on it "Only to reveal where a Subject is (-½)". Or maybe that should be a Side Effect. :think:

[TheQuestionMan]

Change Environment, Usable as an Attack and Ranged. Only to Illuminate Target.

Enhanced Sense: +6 PER (Normal Sight), Usable as an Attack and Ranged.

QM

[casualplayer]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.

That would work if the invisibility effect was built using Images vs. Sight which works via a PER modifier. However, if the invisibility effect was built using Invisibility (the HERO power) it would not since that power does not impose a PER modifier but instead just completely stops the senses it was designed to.

[ghost-angel]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.

As Hyper-Man said, Invisibility the Power does not impose PER Modifiers.

If the Invisible: Sight target is within 1" and has no bought No Fringe then a Sight PER roll may be made to by at -1DCV, 1/2OCV for HTH.

If the Invisible: Sight target has No Fringe, or at greater than 1" you can make a PER with a Non-Targeting Sense to be at -1DCV, 1/2OCV for HTH.

Best case scenario is you can add PER Bonus Modifiers to Sight or other Non-Targeting Sense to try and increase your chances of identifying the location. Either way there's no way around the Must Be Within 1" or the Non-Targeting Sense Roll.

In the case of the latter the effect must match-up with the Non-Targeting Sense used (usually Hearing, but no always). Both Mechanical and Effect aspects.

If invisibility is bought some other way than Invisibility The Power then PER Modifiers may come into play.

[Thrakazog]

I had to deal with this issue in my Car Wars Hero campaign. A rare but effective gadget is the limpet beacon. Attach one to a vehicle and scoring hits with radar or laser-guided (depending on the beacon used) ordinance is a piece of cake. It's still a work in progress.